Author Topic: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?  (Read 25827 times)

Rezdent

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Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« on: November 07, 2014, 09:53:19 AM »
Sadly, we have recently lost my much - loved MIL.
She leaves behind a small but nice 3-2 willed equally to the three living children.

It's in a hot market so should be an  easy sell if we decided to do that.
With rough back of the envelope calculations it would be a good (not great) rental.  DH s siblings have zero interest in owning a rental, so we are looking at whether or not to buy out the others.  It is not our first rental.

I have 2 questions that I could not find answers to and hoping fellow Mustachians might know:

1.  We're familiar with buying property but what's the process to buy out heirs?  Is it different?

2.  I'm making a risk/ benefit on us buying out heirs vs. listing the property and selling/splitting proceeds.  Below is what I've got so far.  What am I missing?

Sell outright:
Risk divided equally among siblings
Siblings feel everyone gets equal value
Cannot begin process until after will is probated
Lower net proceeds due to real estate fees
Takes longer - meanwhile maintenance expenses lowering net proceeds
Hassles of staging and showing house
Hassles of dealing with buyers

Buy out siblings:
Everyone must agree and coordinate
Risk disproportionately on buyer ( but so is potential for reward)
No RE agent costs
Faster - Can start lining up deal in advance of probate so lower maintenance costs
No staging or showing hassles
No hassling with buyers

MNBen

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2014, 12:03:58 PM »
One comment on what you might be missing... it's always risky to do any business transactions with family, especially with inheritance and family memories.

I would highly recommend selling the place, so everyone gets their fair share, then if you want to invest yours in a rental, find a new home.

I can share that when my farming grandfather died in 1998, his will split his land among his sons and split his cash and other property among his daughters.   At the time, no one heard any complaints.  That was what he wished, and so my mother (one of the daughters) received a bulk cash payment while some of her brothers had land.

The daughters were obviously free to do what they wanted with their cash.  The sons were free to do whatever they wanted with the land.   Well the sons decided to keep it and rent it.

Fast forward 15+ years and the land has shot up in value (more than anyone could have expected) and the sons recently got together and decide to sell for a large sum of money.   You can only imagine, out came the jealous siblings (the daughters) who now didn't feel things were fair. 

I checked and had my mother invested her amount in Apple stock at the time, she likely would have had more than her brothers.  (I say "likely" as I'm unsure the exact sale price of the land.)   I didn't approach her with this example, but did try to explain to her that they took on the risk and work for 15+ years.   Needless to say, she didn't understand or see it my way because she still felt the land was worth more at the time than their cash payout, so it wasn't fair.

In fact, the daughters actually spoke up to the sons, and then for Christmas the sons mailed them each a check, yet my mom still told me she felt it was a lot less than she expected.

I know every family is the same, but still, with that lesson, I caution you...  If you buyout your siblings, rent it out, and someday later sell, they may very well think they didn't get their fair share or you somehow cheated them out of some family gold mine.   So my advice is sell.  Divide up the proceeds, and then everyone can go their separate way and do what they want with their inheritance.

GizmoTX

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2014, 12:56:32 PM »
I so agree with MNBen.

Do not trade trying to save the realtor fee for future ambiguity & resentment.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 01:02:42 PM by GizmoTX »

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2014, 01:36:49 PM »
Thanks MnBen and GizmoTX,

This is the misgiving I've been feeling about it and I will definitely share your experience with DH.

Frankly I feel they are pushing to resolve quickly and get their $$$ asap - which makes me suspect they are too close to the edge financially.  They are not mustachian.  I could see a future where they will think we took advantage, especially when the results of our frugality put us at an advantage down the road.  This house isn't going to cause the difference but could be the scapegoat.

If we do decide to go through with it, we'll be sure to bring this to the discussion table and even then we'll have to accept that it could happen anyway.
Oddly, this is a one sided risk.  If we lose money on the house then no one will feel like they've taken advantage of us.

GizmoTX

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2014, 11:43:33 PM »
Siblings wanting you to make the payoff happen quickly is a giant red flag. They wouldn't have any money if your MIL was still living. This is unnecessary risk for you, & yes, they are likely to forget this in the future.

Just calculating the sales price will be a challenge. Let the marketplace be the scapegoat.

MDM

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2014, 12:19:38 AM »
Sorry for the loss of your MIL.

Your pro/con analysis looks good.

If you do want to buy out the other heirs, spend a few hundred dollars and get appraisals and a contract drawn by a neutral lawyer.  Make it clear to all that you are happy to buy the house if all agree, but are also willing to take the (likely smaller) share of the split if any of the others prefers to sell it on the market.  Handled this way it can work out just fine.  Haven't done it ourselves but know people who have.

sol

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2014, 12:56:15 AM »
We had a similar situation with a small rentable house, and we decided to the potential risk to family harmony wasn't worth it for one building.  There are always other buildings.  What if the siblings feel you underpaid for the house?  The only way to allay that fear is to sell it to a third party for market value.

And then an investor snapped the place up and is now turning a tidy profit.  Oh well.

DocCyane

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2014, 07:09:24 AM »
My life partner and I have been dealing with her aunt's estate this past year, and I can confirm the crazy comes out when it's time to deal with heirs and disbursements.

The problem I see with OP's keeping the house is that there is still a sense of ownership by other family members. If it becomes a rental, don't be surprised if someone asks to live in it at a cut-rate price.

We can't move fast enough to handle the estate we're dealing with. Every week brings another letter to the lawyer from one of the 45 heirs (yes, I said 45) who is certain the executor is stealing them blind. Even charities have called to see if they can get their cut early. (Classy)

Don't let it become the estate that never closes. Sell everything. And I'm sorry for your loss.

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2014, 11:35:04 AM »
Sorry for the loss of your MIL.

Your pro/con analysis looks good.

If you do want to buy out the other heirs, spend a few hundred dollars and get appraisals and a contract drawn by a neutral lawyer.  Make it clear to all that you are happy to buy the house if all agree, but are also willing to take the (likely smaller) share of the split if any of the others prefers to sell it on the market.  Handled this way it can work out just fine.  Haven't done it ourselves but know people who have.
Thanks MDM
The bank will do one independent appraisal.  We were thinking of buying a second one for the family piece.
The risk benefit analysis is to present to the family for discussions.
I will also be putting together cost analysis for me and DH when I get better numbers.  I've asked a property manager to put together rental and market comps.
Deal only makes sense if the investment can absorb these costs and stay positive. 

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2014, 11:40:41 AM »
Siblings wanting you to make the payoff happen quickly is a giant red flag. They wouldn't have any money if your MIL was still living. This is unnecessary risk for you, & yes, they are likely to forget this in the future.

Just calculating the sales price will be a challenge. Let the marketplace be the scapegoat.
Good points.  They are moving HAIR ON FIRE fast.  Acting like the house may suddenly disappear.

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2014, 11:45:48 AM »
We had a similar situation with a small rentable house, and we decided to the potential risk to family harmony wasn't worth it for one building.  There are always other buildings.  What if the siblings feel you underpaid for the house?  The only way to allay that fear is to sell it to a third party for market value.

And then an investor snapped the place up and is now turning a tidy profit.  Oh well.
Ouch.  This is a difficult decision.   If we sell outright, remind me to never look back at it.  I wouldn't want to know what someone else was doing with it.

Dicey

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2014, 11:51:07 AM »
Siblings wanting you to make the payoff happen quickly is a giant red flag. They wouldn't have any money if your MIL was still living. This is unnecessary risk for you, & yes, they are likely to forget this in the future.

Just calculating the sales price will be a challenge. Let the marketplace be the scapegoat.
Good points.  They are moving HAIR ON FIRE fast.  Acting like the house may suddenly disappear.

I'm firmly in the "sell" camp. If their hair is on fire now, they will blow through the money in a heartbeat and then come to you expecting more because the house hasn't disappeared. Not worth it. If you sell it, you can tell yourself that a new family will be making memories there that are just as wonderful as yours.

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2014, 12:49:09 PM »
My life partner and I have been dealing with her aunt's estate this past year, and I can confirm the crazy comes out when it's time to deal with heirs and disbursements.

The problem I see with OP's keeping the house is that there is still a sense of ownership by other family members. If it becomes a rental, don't be surprised if someone asks to live in it at a cut-rate price.

We can't move fast enough to handle the estate we're dealing with. Every week brings another letter to the lawyer from one of the 45 heirs (yes, I said 45) who is certain the executor is stealing them blind. Even charities have called to see if they can get their cut early. (Classy)

Don't let it become the estate that never closes. Sell everything. And I'm sorry for your loss.
DocCyane
This sounds like a nightmare.   45?  I cannot even imagine...I am so sorry.

Slightly off topic but throwing this in as others may stumble upon this thread in the future...
You are right dead on about how this brings up the junk in everyone's psyche.
There's only the 3 of them and the youngest in his fifties.  It's a small estate. You'd think that it would be smooth...

My MIL was obsessively neat and clean, bless her.  She was also a Minimalist before it was cool.  She had all her documents, will, etc . in order.  She had given most of the prized possessions away while alive.

There's still the issue of her furniture and few personal possessions. It's been remarkably civil but it is stressful on everyone. Under the ideal conditions left by my MIL. They are having to negotiate over every.last.item.  did I mention that they are already stressed?  Grieving?  And passing a spoon around.  Look. Moms spoon.  Her SPOON.  Decides to put in the garage sale pile.  Pick up another spoon...look...

With 3 adults this is entirely doable.  With 45 people involved this would never resolve.  Again, I'm sorry.

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2014, 01:04:39 PM »
Siblings wanting you to make the payoff happen quickly is a giant red flag. They wouldn't have any money if your MIL was still living. This is unnecessary risk for you, & yes, they are likely to forget this in the future.

Just calculating the sales price will be a challenge. Let the marketplace be the scapegoat.
Good points.  They are moving HAIR ON FIRE fast.  Acting like the house may suddenly disappear.

I'm firmly in the "sell" camp. If their hair is on fire now, they will blow through the money in a heartbeat and then come to you expecting more because the house hasn't disappeared. Not worth it. If you sell it, you can tell yourself that a new family will be making memories there that are just as wonderful as yours.
I'm leaning towards selling too, but my DH needs to be on board.
Once I get the comps and run the numbers it will be easier to see if the potential family issues would be worth the cost.

But to be perfectly honest, neither sibling has ever asked for anything in the past.  Even on rare occasions when we've gone out to eat for any reason they've always pitched in for the bills.  I don't have any evidence of their finances being on fire. Finances aren't something that is shared in this family.
The most obvious reason for their hurry is that they are strapped for cash but I have no way of knowing.  They may be secretly mustachian like my DH, but he doubts that.  Likewise, they have no idea of our finances although they will joke about us being cheap sometimes.  And they're right :)

Primm

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2014, 03:31:16 PM »

But to be perfectly honest, neither sibling has ever asked for anything in the past.  Even on rare occasions when we've gone out to eat for any reason they've always pitched in for the bills.  I don't have any evidence of their finances being on fire. Finances aren't something that is shared in this family.

Don't let that throw you. When I was in debt to my eyeballs in a failing marriage - $50k in credit card debt, $40k car loan, $500k mortgage debt, $3k council rates, you get the picture - I was still able to pull together a couple of hundred dollars to pay for lavish meals out. Mortgage due next week? That's ok, I get paid on Thursday, it will only be a day over. It's not that hard to keep up the facade for a very long time.

Weedy Acres

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2014, 06:03:43 AM »
Plus you're saying it's only a good (not great) rental.  To me, marginally good wouldn't be worth the potential relationship issues down the road.

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2014, 11:01:44 AM »
Primm
What matters to me is not where they are with their finances as much as whether they would blame us later if we did well.  From seeing your posts you seem to take responsibility for your life, not blame others :)   - so glad you drank the Kool aid and joined MMM.
Weedy Acres
We got comp sales last week and they were lower than I had guesstimated so it would be a bit better deal than I first thought.  Still waiting to hear on comp rents.  It appears to be a "good" rental to me - as in it easily exceeds the 1- and 50- % rules at 100% finance.  It would cash flow without our equity - but with the equity it would do even better.  It's also immaculately maintained - no rehab other than fresh interior paint.   We figure it will need a roof in the next 10 years or so.

It's in a good neighborhood within walking distance of several schools.  No HOA.

The rental market in Central Texas is hotter than I would like and making it harder to find great deals. I know there are others who would snap up on it based on the numbers.  Maybe I'm being a spoiled brat on this because we've gotten a couple of truly amazing deals?


I've shared the advice here with DH and it has certainly cooled his enthusiasm but  is still open to the idea.  There's a family meeting coming in December and I am sure it will be discussed - DH and I need to be in agreement by then.

Currently we are both neutral.  The attraction is being able to leverage our existing equity into a property that we know is sound.  Selling and converting that equity into a new rental would be a bigger challenge. The sticky point is that family risk - gaging how big it is, how to try mitigating it, whether  it is worth it.

iris lily

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2014, 11:10:13 AM »
..
  If we lose money on the house then no one will feel like they've taken advantage of us.

Tha'ts human nature. Look at all of the people who are very happy when their house value goes up, and notice they don't feel obligated to share that profit with their mortgage company.

Yet when they are upside down in their house value, they want to walk away and have that liability on the back of the mortgager.

Humans=greedy.

Sell the place. There is likely nothing terrifically special about this particular place as a rental. If you want to get into the rental business use that money and choose the best deal, not just take the deal that was put into your lap and that might be a good rental.

KBecks2

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2014, 05:20:38 PM »
I have heard on Dave Ramsey that if you buy the place outright, you take a discount for the fact that there are no realtors fees. If you sold it any other way, they would be having realtors fees, so the price should be minus those fees. 

It's a unique perspective, but it is true, they are getting a fast and efficient sale to you. 

Bobberth

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2014, 03:01:15 PM »
My first thought when reading the OP was you want to protect yourself from paying too much and 'bailing' the other siblings out.  Appraisals tend to be higher than what it would actually sell for on the open market.  Make sure you know what the actual market value is instead of just an appraised value.  In my market I have seen many estate properties hit the market for ridiculous prices only to set forever and to eventually sell for a fraction of the original price.  I have no insight on how they were originally priced-by appraisal, what the family thought it should be worth or what they needed to sell it for.  I would just caution to make sure you don't over pay.  And definitely take a discount for no real estate commissions.  If you use a title company/lawyer (you should), they will help you with all paperwork for the sale.

I have an uncle that purchased a relative's house for a rental at the estate auction.  I have never heard any grumblings about that from any of his siblings (13 kids).  That same uncle just purchased a piece of property from his mother in a kind of back room deal and there are definitely grumblings about that from his siblings.  Open market, fair process seems to be the difference in this family any way.  All you need is a co-worker or neighbor to say, "You sold it for HOW much?  That was a steal, you got taken!" to one of the other siblings to create potential familial discord.  Even if it was at market value and the other person is off base on value.

You could even list it for sale and then have a 'right of first refusal' to meet or beat the actual open market offer.

Dicey

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 08:36:04 AM »
You could even list it for sale and then have a 'right of first refusal' to meet or beat the actual open market offer.
Brilliant suggestion! Make sure it wouldn't generate a commission for the selling agent though. Might be worth using one of the discount brokers and paying a flat fee. Should you do that, be sure to stipulate that the offer has to be from a qualified buyer. Anyone can bid anything and not have the cash/credit to back it up.

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2014, 11:45:39 AM »
Thanks everyone for the excellent advice.
Update:
We have decided to not buy the house.
The factor that tilted this decision wasn't the analysis because it would make a good rental.
It wasn't that the heirs would blame us down the road.  There are few heirs involved and the risk wasn't large.

What tilted the decision is that the other heirs are not business people.  They have little understanding of how this would work and were making assumptions.
They assumed we would purchase based off of one RE ' s (very optimistic) estimated listing.
They assumed they'd be pocketing the commission savings from the agent's fees instead of knocking it off the price.
They weren't going to do any prep (such as painting the interior) that they would if they had to list.  Of course, they weren't planning to discount the price for those things - they assumed that they'd pocket that savings too.

So while it is possible that we could spend the time to work through all of this stuff,  we decided not. I believe if they were more familiar with real estate and business principles it would have worked.

But this sheds some light on the pressure they were giving us to buy quickly.  It would have been lots less work plus thousands of dollars extra for each of them had their assumptions been correct.  Shoot, I would jump all over a deal like they were imagining too!

GizmoTX

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2014, 12:00:12 PM »
Excellent decision.

It's a good thing you discovered all those assumptions in advance. No telling how many other "surprises" were waiting for you.

While it might take some work & $ to get the house ready for sale, now you should either have the help & support of the other beneficiaries or their agreement about the extra you should get if you must do their share of the work.


Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2014, 12:28:50 PM »


While it might take some work & $ to get the house ready for sale, now you should either have the help & support of the other beneficiaries or their agreement about the extra you should get if you must do their share of the work.

Hah!
This never crossed my mind, thanks.
Given that we live nearby and the others are out of state,  this may need discussion.  Up till now they've been traveling back and forth.  However this could change if the place doesn't move quickly. Definitely something to keep in mind.

iris lily

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2014, 01:50:42 PM »
Good job, OP. But now you've got the problems of doing work on the house and financing that.

I watched a friend go through that, she was the eldest (and the bossiest) of her 5 siblings. Their deceased father's house needed "lots of work" according to her. I suggested that she price price it AS IS and sell it at that price.

But noooo, lots of work was necessary in her mind in order to get top dollar. Top Dollar must be gotten! Nephews said they would do some of the work, then didn't show up. Sisters said they would do specific things and then--didn't. Brothers screwed up one major repair and money had to be thrown at the problem.  She drove 60 some miles each way regularly to check on the progress of the improvements and that cost something. (Her possession of her father's car became one of the family bones of contention.) My friend put several thousand of her expected profit into fixing up this house. This took 1+ years and they finally sold it.

and then --OOOPSIE! The federal government came after that profit because my friend's father had racked up bills in a nursing home that Medicare Medicaid picked up. My friend wasn't sophisticated enough to understand this would happen. (Personally, I say YAY for Nanny G in saving my tax dollars.)

So after time, money, and acrimony, there was little profit when it was split 5 ways. Moral of the story: a clean fast deal may be the best deal even if it nets a lower profit.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:59:47 PM by iris lily »

Rezdent

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2014, 02:26:51 PM »
Iris Lilly:
Wow.  Just wow.

Yep, the work is there.  But had we gone with the purchase we would have had the work anyway.  Now we will have the other heirs pitching in their fair share of it so I am totally ok with it.  Now, if there's issues with how much to do - well luckily the place is in amazing good shape.  Some fresh paint would be about it.

I'm a bit confused about the Medicare - I thought it was
1.  They paid a bill, or
2.  They didn't pay?
I didn't know there was a claw back possibility.  We definitely need to check this out.
I did have a neighbor who had to sell her house and exhaust the funds before Medicare would pay her nursing home costs. Could your friend's situation be related to that scenario?
Possibly her dad died in the middle of this process? Did he or the family somehow skirt the proper sequence?  Or did it all happen so fast that Medicare took time to catch up to them?
I'm just trying to figure out how this could happen.

No matter how it happened, didn't they get a statement or something of what was owed?

GizmoTX

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2014, 02:54:30 PM »
I believe Iris Lily meant Medicaid, where it paid for nursing home care when the house was the only remaining asset -- it gets to reclaim what it spent from the house proceeds.

Medicare is paid monthly, usually automatically deducted from Social Security. Yes, statements are sent monthly. However, if any SS payments were sent or deposited after your MIL died, you have to give it back.

iris lily

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Re: Inherited House and buying out heirs - How does this work?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2014, 03:59:09 PM »
I believe Iris Lily meant Medicaid, where it paid for nursing home care when the house was the only remaining asset -- it gets to reclaim what it spent from the house proceeds.

Medicare is paid monthly, usually automatically deducted from Social Security. Yes, statements are sent monthly. However, if any SS payments were sent or deposited after your MIL died, you have to give it back.

You are right, I mean Medicaid! Sorry. I will fix my post.

I don't know the mechanics of it, I just caution everyone to make sure your deceased parent is clean with Medicaid before assuming any inheritance. The look back period is, generally speaking, within 5 years of the need for paid care. We were careful in that when dealing with my mother's house and her stay in a nursing home.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 04:02:44 PM by iris lily »