Author Topic: House Flipping with friends??????  (Read 1290 times)

NYC_Squirrel

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House Flipping with friends??????
« on: July 22, 2021, 07:17:33 AM »
Hello, I'm new to the house real estate and house flipping market, but one of my best friend has been buying cheap houses, reno, and then renting them out for income for sometimes now (as fulltime)

I like would like join his venture, but I don't want to quit my fulltime job, and he's currently short of cash while I have some savings.

The Plan is to secure a loan with my deposit to purchase a house, and then he does the reno and ultimately flips it for profit.

I trust him enough that he wouldn't cheat me out of anything, but what should be a fair split of the profit?

TLDR:::::::I put down the downpayment to secure loan to buy house, my friend does the reno, and we flip it. what is a fair split of the profit?

thanks

JGS1980

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2021, 08:16:20 AM »
What is your friend offering?

Google "hard money loan", and determine what a fair rate would be for a complete stranger in consideration of the risk involved, and then decide if you want to give him the "stranger" or loan rate, or the "friend I can trust rate".

Question for you ->  why can't your friend get his own hard money loans or tap into his built up equity if he already does this professionally? Why does he need your money at all?

NYC_Squirrel

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2021, 09:10:50 AM »
he's offering the manual label for reno. He's having hard time refinancing his built up equity, because he doesn't want banks to check his income.

Also, he currently is financing a wedding...so he really doesn't have a lot of cash on hand.

JGS1980

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2021, 09:29:30 AM »
So you provide 100% of the Cash, and he does 100% of the labor?

How would you split profits? What's the timeline? Has the flip home been chosen already?

Metalcat

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2021, 09:39:40 AM »
I personally don't do small business partnerships anymore, period, because experience has taught me that a good idea and trust between partners isn't enough.

You have to hammer out ALL of the details in advance and have them in legal documentation.

Who decides what renos to do?
Who funds the renos?
What happens if the project goes over budget?
Who decides what to sell the property for?
Who decides on the realtor or if you are using a realtor?
Who decides on the lawyer or if you are using a lawyer for the sale?
Who is financially liable if the project loses money?

Etc, etc, etc.

Flipping involves a TON of decisions that a solo flipper might not even think about because they just make those decisions. In a partnership, it needs to be laid out in advance EXACTLY who is responsible for which decisions, and if both are responsible, what the recourse is in the event of a disagreement.

That's what makes partnerships so fucking complicated.



NYC_Squirrel

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2021, 09:47:03 AM »
So you provide 100% of the Cash, and he does 100% of the labor?

How would you split profits? What's the timeline? Has the flip home been chosen already?

correct; I'm not sure how the profit should be split? 50:50? 40:60? I would assume the reno would take at most 2 months; and flip as soon as reno is done. We are currently looking for prospective house.

I would also assume that he would be making most of the operational decisions since I have a full time job nor have the extensive expertise with house renos.

lhamo

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2021, 10:05:51 AM »
Why not simplify it by just charging him comparable interest to what another lender would under similar circumstances?  You get better rates than the bank would give you on your capital, but he makes the decisions about everything else.  If cash flow is an issue for him you can wait to get your payment until he has sold the property, but maybe add a penalty for anything that drags out over the expected reno period.

So say for simplicity's sake you are loaning him 100k at a 6% annual rate ($500/month), with an additional 6% penalty for every month after two months from purchase to sale.  He takes three months to complete the reno and get the property listed, and then another month to finalize the sale.  At closing you get your $100k back +2k in normal interest payments + 1k in penalty interest payments. That works out to a 9% effective annual interest rate.

I could see a deal like this being much more attractive to him long-term if he is good at flipping because he still is walking away with the bulk of the profits, which is probably fair given he is the one putting in the labor.  If he is not good at flipping that should become obvious to both of you fairly quickly. 

If you ask for 50:50 split of the profits  there is little incentive for him to keep working with you once he has built up his business.  Looks like flip loans from established companies that do this are in the 5.5-10% range.

https://www.investopedia.com/best-house-flipping-loans-5121137

affordablehousing

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2021, 11:38:51 AM »
Just charge him 10% simple interest, guaranteed by one of his other houses. He doesn't pay you back? Just record the title to the collateral in your name and he can keep working on the project.

I should say, in general, this is a horrible idea but if you want to do it keep it as simple as possible.

Metalcat

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2021, 12:08:21 PM »
Just charge him 10% simple interest, guaranteed by one of his other houses. He doesn't pay you back? Just record the title to the collateral in your name and he can keep working on the project.

I should say, in general, this is a horrible idea but if you want to do it keep it as simple as possible.

Agreed, there's a huge difference between being an investor and being a partner.

NYC_Squirrel

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2021, 02:40:25 PM »
thanks everyone; this makes a lot more sense now. I'm starting to wonder why not just take a loan with me and built up this business instead. more incentive for him to do so.

sailinlight

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2021, 03:14:02 PM »
Just make sure if you're providing a loan that you are either the owner or lienholder on the property he's renovating.

Dicey

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2021, 03:30:52 PM »
Just charge him 10% simple interest, guaranteed by one of his other houses. He doesn't pay you back? Just record the title to the collateral in your name and he can keep working on the project.

I should say, in general, this is a horrible idea but if you want to do it keep it as simple as possible.
This. And I have house flipping with friends experience....

Perhaps I should say "former" friends.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 01:55:15 PM by Dicey »

PMJL34

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2021, 08:11:50 PM »
"He's having hard time refinancing his built up equity, because he doesn't want banks to check his income."

What does this mean?

Also financing a wedding so he has no access to money, but does this full time?

I don't like the sound of any of this. I'm guessing that he asked you for money correct (in exchange for profit/equity)? You are basically going to play the role of a bank for your best friend.

I'd politely decline and remain his best friend without any business interest.

affordablehousing and others have guided you on how to structure this if you want to move forward.

Best of luck!

Zamboni

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2021, 02:50:49 PM »
MMM actually has a blog post about a similar scenario that he entered: real estate construction with a friend as a partner. It didn't go very well for a variety of reasons:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/01/mr-money-mustaches-big-mistake/

He has a much more recent post where he made a cash offer on the house next door to his on behalf of a friend so that she could win the contract to purchase in a competitive market . . . that seemed to go much better, but it was a simpler transaction, not a business venture.

Good luck, whatever you decide!

MainstreamContrarian

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2021, 12:57:10 AM »
I have lots of experience with these types of deals.

Red flags (1) he doesn’t have money, (2) doesn’t want banks to check his (low / non-existent) income and/or his debts and credit score, another way of saying this is he’s not financeable, (3) he’s not putting cash into the deal.

Never make a loan when you are taking an investment risk.  You are taking all the financial risk, interest cannot compensate you for that risk, you need a percentage of profits.

Never go into a deal where the other guy doesn’t have skin (money) in the game.  You are putting up the downpayment, getting the loan.  Who makes the payments?  Does he get paid hourly for his time, plus a % of profits?  What’s to stop him from walking if he decides it’s not worth his time?

Malcat had good questions above.  You, being the money guy and less experienced, need the deal documented.  He, being more experienced, would likely benefit from the deal not being well documented so he can just run the show and might try to dissuade you from good documentation.

This is NOT an interest deal.  But, you cannot know what a fair profit split is until you know how much money he’s putting into the deal, how much work will be required on the house, whether he’s a licensed contractor, how much of that work he will actually do himself as opposed to hire out, etc.  E.g., it could need paint and carpet and he puts in very little money you would need a much higher percent of the profit, compared to he finds a house priced significantly below market, it needs a much more extensive remodel where he is physically going to be putting in the labor, not being paid for the labor by the hour, and puts down a good chunk of money for the down payment and pays the carrying costs, in that case you would be entitled to a smaller percentage of the profit.

Realistically, it just sounds like he’s been doing this business but doesn’t have cash or a bank willing to loan him money. He turned to you as a financing source and there’s a lot of red flags. Heed the red flags.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 12:59:36 AM by MainstreamContrarian »

rocketpj

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Re: House Flipping with friends??????
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2021, 12:10:38 PM »
I don't go into business with friends anymore, because it isn't worth it. 

Any joint venture I did get into would be carefully hammered out in advance, ideally with the use of an LLC.  Handshakes lose their value when one person feels like they aren't getting their share.

Learning the above cost me about $200k and a few years of missed opportunities, and I'm giving it to you for free!

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!