Author Topic: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?  (Read 30404 times)

2Birds1Stone

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Posting this for an IRL friend.

She bought a condo for her daughter to live in ~6 years ago for ~$100k, at the time the HOA fee was $125/month.

Over the next 6 years it's risen to $770/month. The daughter moved out and bought a SFH with her partner (unmarried) and my friend attempted to DIY some cosmetic work and list the place for sale. The daughter was essentially renting (at cost) from her mom. During the first sale contract she entered, some facts came to light regarding the HOA's lack of reserves and the place needing a new roof soon. The buyer backed out, and the place has a 1 year min lease requirement for renters.

It's been sitting empty for ~4 months now and she's already paid ~$7,800 in costs.

With the HOA as high as it is, lack of reserves, another assessment coming soon she's at a loss of what to do.

Is letting the bank foreclose an options? Talking to a RE attorney is an obvious step I've suggested, but hoping anyone here might have some ideas/insights in addition.

The state is FL for what it's worth.

SilentC

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2024, 06:00:29 AM »
She just needs to lower the price, perhaps a lot. Google is telling me FL is a recourse state meaning the bank can go after other assets.  She could try to sue the former owner but statute of limitations could be an issue, sounds like it would not hurt to talk to attorney though.

GilesMM

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2024, 06:35:22 AM »
What  can she rent it for?  Maybe rent until the HOA board gets their act together.

uniwelder

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2024, 06:39:45 AM »
PTF... I don't have useful advice or info. Is it likely the condo is near the beach?  I would guess part of reason the HOA fees are going up so much is due to astronomical insurance cost increases of the past few years.

She could try to sue the former owner but statute of limitations could be an issue, sounds like it would not hurt to talk to attorney though.

What would the owner of 6 years ago have to do with current HOA fees?  Unless they happened to be the former president of the HOA, I don't get it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2024, 08:57:08 AM by uniwelder »

Dicey

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2024, 08:04:40 AM »
It's possible that insurance rates will stabilize in a few years, so hanging on could be an option. Can she afford to carry a negative cash flow? If so, she could reduce the rent and ride it out. Otherwise, she could dump it, and write off the loss if possible.

She may also have not paid much attention to the Financials when she bought the place, so there's a lesson there.

Unless the condo's out of her area, she should at least start attending HOA Board meetings, better still, she should join the board.*

Another possibility might be moving into it herself, or doing what @SwordGuy has done and rent below market to give someone a leg up in life.

*Real life, real time example: We bought an older condo with underfunded reserves for our son a couple of years ago. At our price point, it was the best option. We deliberately stayed on title so that one of us could be on the HOA Board. We did this because our son works insane hours. (He's also on the spectrum and far too shy to do it himself.) Currently, it's DH's turn, and he's enjoying it very much.

In CA, all stairs and balconies must be tested, and deficiencies corrected. The property manager feared they would all have to be replaced, which would result in huge assessments and dues major hikes. Instead, DH managed the process. Turns out only seven need to be replaced, not 24. DH figured out they didn't need to be done all at once. He also met with contractors on site to made sure their estimates were accurate to avoid cost overruns. As a result, the HOA will be able to cash flow the project with only a modest dues increase.

Moral of the story: never, ever buy a condo unless you're willing to be on the Board, and scour the reports before buying, even if you have to hire a CPA or RE attorney out of pocket.

Good luck to your friend, and thanks for helping them out, @2Birds1Stone. You're a mensch.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2024, 09:08:46 PM by Dicey »

Morning Glory

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2024, 08:44:13 AM »
I would keep lowering the price until it sells. Taking a small loss is better than letting the bank foreclose.

FINate

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2024, 08:54:13 AM »
She just needs to lower the price, perhaps a lot. Google is telling me FL is a recourse state meaning the bank can go after other assets.  She could try to sue the former owner but statute of limitations could be an issue, sounds like it would not hurt to talk to attorney though.

This^

A $770 monthly payment is equivalent to about $100k at current mortgage rates. The property will need a substantial price drop to sell. Maybe not the full $100k, but a lot.

The rapid increase in FL condo HOA fees is due to multiple factors, including laws passed in response to the Champlain Towers collapse in 2021 and much higher insurance premiums.

https://www.pnj.com/story/news/2024/01/16/florida-hoa-fees-are-soaring-what-to-know/72177345007/

It sounds like this condo has a lot of deferred maintenance that the new FL condo law has forced to the surface.

Your friend has to do some serious homework here and dig into the what is driving the HOA increase.

If this is likely temporary then renting at a reduced cost just to cover expenses while the HOA works things out is an option. A lot has to align for HOA fees to come down in the future, including board leadership that's up to the task. I have no idea what the specific situation is, but would not be surprised if HOA fees remain very high for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise, best bet is to sell at a much lower price to avoid long term carrying costs which, as they're already finding out, quickly add up. 



« Last Edit: May 02, 2024, 08:56:08 AM by FINate »

uniwelder

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2024, 08:56:06 AM »
OP, how much is she asking for the condo?  You say it was purchased for 100k in 2018.   

Omy

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2024, 09:08:16 AM »
Price solves everything. If she's upside down, she may want to consider a short sale.

bluecollarmusician

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2024, 10:04:05 AM »
Since they already own another home, a short sale with a deficiency waiver is likely an option.  The lender wouldn't like it, but if the option is foreclosure, then they might accept it.  There would be a big credit hit, but maybe worth it if the alligator is causing real problems.

I expect we will see more of this, as condo buildings are particularly hard hit by the double whammy of inflation of everything and big insurance hikes in places like FL.  We've seen it to some degree in VA and have not had the reduced insurer pool like FL.  An individual owner can opt out of insurance when it becomes to expensive (a big roll of the dice) however a condo building doesn't have that option.

@Dicey is right about everything re:condo ownership.  It certainly has some benefits, but it is also means you are subject to mismanagement by (usually well meaning) people who have no idea how to manage a large building. 

*Usually* a little time helps correct most mismanagement- the disconnect between cost and ability to sell will likely be sorted out in time, but letting it sit empty is a guaranteed money loser.  The short term option is rent it at market rate, pay whatever assessment, and hold for better conditions.  But maybe they don't want to be a landlord?

If they are interested in short selling, they should talk with a lawyer who specializes in facilitating those transactions.  They will likely have to stop paying for at least a few months for the bank to consider it.

Just a few thoughts...

Cranky

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2024, 12:43:13 PM »
We bought a condo in Wisconsin last year. A week later, one of the units exploded (literally)

The insurer dropped the condo association like a hot potato and there were only 3 companies willing to issue policies, with 5 fold increase in price.

So, that’s been more than we anticipated but it’s actually a very nice place to live.

Sibley

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2024, 10:41:28 AM »
We bought a condo in Wisconsin last year. A week later, one of the units exploded (literally)

The insurer dropped the condo association like a hot potato and there were only 3 companies willing to issue policies, with 5 fold increase in price.

So, that’s been more than we anticipated but it’s actually a very nice place to live.

Um, what?!? I assume a gas issue caused the explosion, but you can't just post that and not post any details.

Cranky

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2024, 03:41:32 PM »
We bought a condo in Wisconsin last year. A week later, one of the units exploded (literally)

The insurer dropped the condo association like a hot potato and there were only 3 companies willing to issue policies, with 5 fold increase in price.

So, that’s been more than we anticipated but it’s actually a very nice place to live.

Um, what?!? I assume a gas issue caused the explosion, but you can't just post that and not post any details.

The moral of this story is to make really, really sure you’ve turned off the gas valve on your grill.

GilesMM

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2024, 08:37:13 PM »
We bought a condo in Wisconsin last year. A week later, one of the units exploded (literally)

The insurer dropped the condo association like a hot potato and there were only 3 companies willing to issue policies, with 5 fold increase in price.

So, that’s been more than we anticipated but it’s actually a very nice place to live.

Um, what?!? I assume a gas issue caused the explosion, but you can't just post that and not post any details.

The moral of this story is to make really, really sure you’ve turned off the gas valve on your grill.


Gas leaks suck.  Luckily gas smells so leaks are detected if one is home. The great big explosions usually happen when nobody is there (except perhaps a sleeping cat).  One kid in my high school had this happen to his family - entire house exploded just like in the movies.  Total loss.  We teased him about it all year.  It was a running joke in English class whenever we discussed something bad happening to a character in "litrachure".

Cranky

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2024, 01:27:15 PM »
We bought a condo in Wisconsin last year. A week later, one of the units exploded (literally)

The insurer dropped the condo association like a hot potato and there were only 3 companies willing to issue policies, with 5 fold increase in price.

So, that’s been more than we anticipated but it’s actually a very nice place to live.

Um, what?!? I assume a gas issue caused the explosion, but you can't just post that and not post any details.

The moral of this story is to make really, really sure you’ve turned off the gas valve on your grill.


Gas leaks suck.  Luckily gas smells so leaks are detected if one is home. The great big explosions usually happen when nobody is there (except perhaps a sleeping cat).  One kid in my high school had this happen to his family - entire house exploded just like in the movies.  Total loss.  We teased him about it all year.  It was a running joke in English class whenever we discussed something bad happening to a character in "litrachure".

If your garage is full of propane, all you have to do is turn on the light switch. The guy did survive but was in the hospital for months. The condo association is suing him.

Dicey

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2024, 11:38:09 AM »
Hey, @2Birds1Stone, what did your IRL friend decide to do?

Jaybo

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2024, 05:40:45 PM »
"What would the owner of 6 years ago have to do with current HOA fees?  Unless they happened to be the former president of the HOA, I don't get it."
[/quote]

It doesn't have to do with the previous owner; OP is illustrating the astronomical increase in HOA fees as they were $645 a month less at the time of purchase, and even a rational person wouldn't have figured on that large of an increase so quickly.

Jaybo

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2024, 06:03:59 PM »
Your friend is in a tough spot, and I feel for them.  Florida is a recourse state, which definitely complicates things.

Florida looked like a great place for investment (and some spots still are), but with climate change rearing its ugly head, it has thrown things for a whirl.

It looks like your friend is (or will be) getting hit with a double whammy: rising insurance costs and astronomically underfunded HOA fees. 

The HOA assessment and upcoming (you can bet there's more down the pipe) special assessments are most likely due to chronically underfunded coffers.  Because of that condo collapse, condo buildings all over Florida are having to immediately bring them up to current codes, and its not uncommon for people to get hit with $50k, $70k sometimes $100k special assessments.  For. Each. Person.

Florida as a whole is seeing its insurance costs rise because its become highly unprofitable for the insurance companies.  For those that don't know, insurance companies, when doing their calculations, don't have near the profit margin people think.  Its become so unprofitable for the insurance companies that more and more are pulling out of the market completely, and all signs point to a collapse in the Florida insurance market.  This is why you're seeing people in 1980's 1500 sqft single family homes having their insurance skyrocket to upwards of $24,000/year (I know a couple people who are paying this very amount on the coast).

Its already starting to become a steady stream of people trying to sell their condos and get out from under them because the writing's on the wall, and in cases sell them and leave Florida altogether because prices are going to continue dropping and all signs point to the price drops accelerating and it becoming dang near impossible to sell.  As time passes, lenders are going to become more strict about going after those that let them slip into foreclosure to avoid a 2008-style (Please note I did NOT say 2008 would happen again, just that in respect to specifically Florida's condo market it will be similar conditions-a glut of empty and unsellable condos returned to the bank's balance sheets and no one wanting to buy them because of the special assessments and back taxes owed coupled with the high cost to insure them).

My take is, as you said, see an attorney first.  But after that, its probably going to be better in the long run if at all possible to sell it at a loss now, before a special assessment hits and cover the lender's loss so they don't go after your friend.  If they can't sell it, then it may be best to turn it over to foreclosure now and let the lender come after her for a smaller margin vs what that margin will be in a year from now.  BUT, talk to an attorney as I am not one and just giving my personal opinion; the attorney will clearly know better than me as I know I don't have all the facts.  In a nutshell: take action now to minimize the coming losses.

Good luck to them.

uniwelder

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2024, 07:17:41 PM »


She could try to sue the former owner but statute of limitations could be an issue, sounds like it would not hurt to talk to attorney though.
What would the owner of 6 years ago have to do with current HOA fees?  Unless they happened to be the former president of the HOA, I don't get it.

It doesn't have to do with the previous owner; OP is illustrating the astronomical increase in HOA fees as they were $645 a month less at the time of purchase, and even a rational person wouldn't have figured on that large of an increase so quickly.

I get the second part, but I think you're missing my point.  The person I was responding to suggested suing the former owner because HOA fees went up 6 years after selling the place.  In what way does that make any sense and not be considered a frivolous lawsuit?

Jaybo

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2024, 08:23:34 PM »
I get the second part, but I think you're missing my point.  The person I was responding to suggested suing the former owner because HOA fees went up 6 years after selling the place.  In what way does that make any sense and not be considered a frivolous lawsuit?
[/quote]

My bad, somehow totally missed/misunderstood part of it.  You’re right, I don’t see how that could be anything but a frivolous lawsuit.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2024, 08:41:59 PM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2024, 02:12:30 PM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
\

Good to hear that she had the funds available to take the loss. I know it hurts to take the loss, but she is being responsible for having the funds available to afford the paper loss. Professional real estate investors are going to make a few mistakes during their career and at some point and take a paper loss. However, it's not a big deal if they can afford to take the loss and avoid short sale or foreclosure. 

Dicey

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2024, 04:45:08 PM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

theoverlook

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2024, 07:59:19 AM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

Assuming the loss is equal to or greater than the depreciation, there's not any recapture needed, right?

tj

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2024, 08:23:42 PM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

Assuming the loss is equal to or greater than the depreciation, there's not any recapture needed, right?

It was bought for a family member to live in. If it was never a rental property, it was never depreciated and there would be nothing to recapture.

FINate

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2024, 08:51:15 AM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

Assuming the loss is equal to or greater than the depreciation, there's not any recapture needed, right?

It was bought for a family member to live in. If it was never a rental property, it was never depreciated and there would be nothing to recapture.

This is one of the main reasons I don't like arrangements that co-mingle family finances, it puts you into a fraught grey area. The IRS doesn't look kindly on below market rents to family, can get you into trouble when filing taxes and claiming deductions. Yet when you sell, because it was a rental, they can still go after depreciation recapture. Perhaps one of our resident CPAs can provide more clarity.

GilesMM

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2024, 11:05:25 AM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

Assuming the loss is equal to or greater than the depreciation, there's not any recapture needed, right?

It was bought for a family member to live in. If it was never a rental property, it was never depreciated and there would be nothing to recapture.

This is one of the main reasons I don't like arrangements that co-mingle family finances, it puts you into a fraught grey area. The IRS doesn't look kindly on below market rents to family, can get you into trouble when filing taxes and claiming deductions. Yet when you sell, because it was a rental, they can still go after depreciation recapture. Perhaps one of our resident CPAs can provide more clarity.


You don't need to be a CPA to know that there is no deprecation to recapture if you never claimed any.  The whole idea of recapture is that you were claiming the depreciation as an expense but then later selling for more than the depreciated value and in many cases more than the purchase price (aka Appreciation), so you owe tax on the depreciation which was claimed but failed to occur.  The person in question didn't treat the unit as a rental for tax purposes, apparently (although I'm not sure why since there would have been tax advantages to doing so). The "gift" of imputed rent might be something the IRS would like to see declared as a gift, but there would be no tax implication unless the lifetime rent plus other gifts exceeded $13 million.  If the owner does sell for less than they paid, and if they had treated it as a rental, the lower price would reduce or eliminate the depreciation recapture.

FINate

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2024, 12:34:41 PM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

Assuming the loss is equal to or greater than the depreciation, there's not any recapture needed, right?

It was bought for a family member to live in. If it was never a rental property, it was never depreciated and there would be nothing to recapture.

This is one of the main reasons I don't like arrangements that co-mingle family finances, it puts you into a fraught grey area. The IRS doesn't look kindly on below market rents to family, can get you into trouble when filing taxes and claiming deductions. Yet when you sell, because it was a rental, they can still go after depreciation recapture. Perhaps one of our resident CPAs can provide more clarity.


You don't need to be a CPA to know that there is no deprecation to recapture if you never claimed any. The whole idea of recapture is that you were claiming the depreciation as an expense but then later selling for more than the depreciated value and in many cases more than the purchase price (aka Appreciation), so you owe tax on the depreciation which was claimed but failed to occur.  The person in question didn't treat the unit as a rental for tax purposes, apparently (although I'm not sure why since there would have been tax advantages to doing so). The "gift" of imputed rent might be something the IRS would like to see declared as a gift, but there would be no tax implication unless the lifetime rent plus other gifts exceeded $13 million.  If the owner does sell for less than they paid, and if they had treated it as a rental, the lower price would reduce or eliminate the depreciation recapture.

No, you are wrong about this. My understanding is the IRS can recapture depreciation from an eligible rental even if it was never claimed.

https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/taxes/discussion/selling-a-rental-property-but-never-claimed-depreciation/00/3258376
« Last Edit: September 10, 2024, 12:36:27 PM by FINate »

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2024, 12:39:36 PM »

It was bought for a family member to live in. If it was never a rental property, it was never depreciated and there would be nothing to recapture.

This is one of the main reasons I don't like arrangements that co-mingle family finances, it puts you into a fraught grey area. The IRS doesn't look kindly on below market rents to family, can get you into trouble when filing taxes and claiming deductions. Yet when you sell, because it was a rental, they can still go after depreciation recapture. Perhaps one of our resident CPAs can provide more clarity.


You don't need to be a CPA to know that there is no deprecation to recapture if you never claimed any.  The whole idea of recapture is that you were claiming the depreciation as an expense but then later selling for more than the depreciated value and in many cases more than the purchase price (aka Appreciation), so you owe tax on the depreciation which was claimed but failed to occur.  The person in question didn't treat the unit as a rental for tax purposes, apparently (although I'm not sure why since there would have been tax advantages to doing so). The "gift" of imputed rent might be something the IRS would like to see declared as a gift, but there would be no tax implication unless the lifetime rent plus other gifts exceeded $13 million.  If the owner does sell for less than they paid, and if they had treated it as a rental, the lower price would reduce or eliminate the depreciation recapture.

But if you were a CPA, you might realize that the IRS doesn't care if you actually claimed the depreciation. If it was allowed (even if not claimed), it needs to be recaptured.

"To figure any gain that must be reported as ordinary income, you must keep permanent records of the facts necessary to figure the depreciation or amortization allowed or allowable on your property."
 From IRS Pub 544, bolding mine
« Last Edit: September 10, 2024, 12:50:55 PM by MoseyingAlong »

Morning Glory

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2024, 03:14:13 PM »
If there was never any rental income and only family members stayed there then the property might qualify as the owner's "second home" instead  of an "eligible rental", especially if the owner stayed there occasionally as well. Im not an expert but it might be worth looking into.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2024, 03:22:51 PM by Morning Glory »

GilesMM

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2024, 05:02:00 PM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

Assuming the loss is equal to or greater than the depreciation, there's not any recapture needed, right?

It was bought for a family member to live in. If it was never a rental property, it was never depreciated and there would be nothing to recapture.

This is one of the main reasons I don't like arrangements that co-mingle family finances, it puts you into a fraught grey area. The IRS doesn't look kindly on below market rents to family, can get you into trouble when filing taxes and claiming deductions. Yet when you sell, because it was a rental, they can still go after depreciation recapture. Perhaps one of our resident CPAs can provide more clarity.


You don't need to be a CPA to know that there is no deprecation to recapture if you never claimed any. The whole idea of recapture is that you were claiming the depreciation as an expense but then later selling for more than the depreciated value and in many cases more than the purchase price (aka Appreciation), so you owe tax on the depreciation which was claimed but failed to occur.  The person in question didn't treat the unit as a rental for tax purposes, apparently (although I'm not sure why since there would have been tax advantages to doing so). The "gift" of imputed rent might be something the IRS would like to see declared as a gift, but there would be no tax implication unless the lifetime rent plus other gifts exceeded $13 million.  If the owner does sell for less than they paid, and if they had treated it as a rental, the lower price would reduce or eliminate the depreciation recapture.

No, you are wrong about this. My understanding is the IRS can recapture depreciation from an eligible rental even if it was never claimed.

https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/taxes/discussion/selling-a-rental-property-but-never-claimed-depreciation/00/3258376


That only applies if the property was treated as a rental in annual filings. If not, no recapture.  It sounds like rather than claiming the expenses as one would on a rental, the owner passed them on to the relative and treated it as a second home.

FINate

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2024, 05:23:45 PM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

Assuming the loss is equal to or greater than the depreciation, there's not any recapture needed, right?

It was bought for a family member to live in. If it was never a rental property, it was never depreciated and there would be nothing to recapture.

This is one of the main reasons I don't like arrangements that co-mingle family finances, it puts you into a fraught grey area. The IRS doesn't look kindly on below market rents to family, can get you into trouble when filing taxes and claiming deductions. Yet when you sell, because it was a rental, they can still go after depreciation recapture. Perhaps one of our resident CPAs can provide more clarity.


You don't need to be a CPA to know that there is no deprecation to recapture if you never claimed any. The whole idea of recapture is that you were claiming the depreciation as an expense but then later selling for more than the depreciated value and in many cases more than the purchase price (aka Appreciation), so you owe tax on the depreciation which was claimed but failed to occur.  The person in question didn't treat the unit as a rental for tax purposes, apparently (although I'm not sure why since there would have been tax advantages to doing so). The "gift" of imputed rent might be something the IRS would like to see declared as a gift, but there would be no tax implication unless the lifetime rent plus other gifts exceeded $13 million.  If the owner does sell for less than they paid, and if they had treated it as a rental, the lower price would reduce or eliminate the depreciation recapture.

No, you are wrong about this. My understanding is the IRS can recapture depreciation from an eligible rental even if it was never claimed.

https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/taxes/discussion/selling-a-rental-property-but-never-claimed-depreciation/00/3258376


That only applies if the property was treated as a rental in annual filings. If not, no recapture.  It sounds like rather than claiming the expenses as one would on a rental, the owner passed them on to the relative and treated it as a second home.

Possibly. To be considered a second home the IRS requires the owners to use it a minimum of 14 days per year and it must not be rented out full time. Otherwise the rent must be reported as rental income and is open to depreciation recapture. Though we're speculating as OP hasn't given us these details, only that it was rented to a relative (which I read as full-time rental).

tj

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Re: Help! Unable to Sell/Rent Condo w/ Exhorbitant HOA Fee's, Options?
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2024, 06:21:00 PM »
@Dicey, she sold the condo for a pretty large loss. $30k below purchase price.....but she's happy to be behind that headache.
In the grand scheme of life, $30k isn't an insurmountable loss. She might also be on the hook for depreciation recapture...

Assuming the loss is equal to or greater than the depreciation, there's not any recapture needed, right?

It was bought for a family member to live in. If it was never a rental property, it was never depreciated and there would be nothing to recapture.

This is one of the main reasons I don't like arrangements that co-mingle family finances, it puts you into a fraught grey area. The IRS doesn't look kindly on below market rents to family, can get you into trouble when filing taxes and claiming deductions. Yet when you sell, because it was a rental, they can still go after depreciation recapture. Perhaps one of our resident CPAs can provide more clarity.


You don't need to be a CPA to know that there is no deprecation to recapture if you never claimed any. The whole idea of recapture is that you were claiming the depreciation as an expense but then later selling for more than the depreciated value and in many cases more than the purchase price (aka Appreciation), so you owe tax on the depreciation which was claimed but failed to occur.  The person in question didn't treat the unit as a rental for tax purposes, apparently (although I'm not sure why since there would have been tax advantages to doing so). The "gift" of imputed rent might be something the IRS would like to see declared as a gift, but there would be no tax implication unless the lifetime rent plus other gifts exceeded $13 million.  If the owner does sell for less than they paid, and if they had treated it as a rental, the lower price would reduce or eliminate the depreciation recapture.

No, you are wrong about this. My understanding is the IRS can recapture depreciation from an eligible rental even if it was never claimed.

https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/taxes/discussion/selling-a-rental-property-but-never-claimed-depreciation/00/3258376


That only applies if the property was treated as a rental in annual filings. If not, no recapture.  It sounds like rather than claiming the expenses as one would on a rental, the owner passed them on to the relative and treated it as a second home.

Possibly. To be considered a second home the IRS requires the owners to use it a minimum of 14 days per year and it must not be rented out full time. Otherwise the rent must be reported as rental income and is open to depreciation recapture. Though we're speculating as OP hasn't given us these details, only that it was rented to a relative (which I read as full-time rental).

You can have a personal asset that isn't a second  home. Only th "second home" is allowed to be deducted on Schedule A.

One would owe the depreciation recapture if they were entitled to depreciation even if they didn't claim any depreciation on the tax return.

One would need to rent out a property at least at fair rental value in order to realize any sort of tax advantage from sticking it on a Schedule E.

 

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