deciding where to live after retirement: stay in the Worst State or move on?

[pegleglolita]

Background: I am a tenured university professor in a medical field at a big state school, great salary, benefits, job security 50 yo.  The academic grind is real and I think I have about 4-5 more years of making horcruxes out of pieces of my soul every day left in me before I lose all will to live.  Pension kicks in at 60, access to 457b at separation of service, likewise I think I could do the rule of 55 with my 403b.  The ultimate goal is to have an energy-independent property of about 10-20 acres with a big garden (yes, we've lived in rural areas before, and yes we know how to garden).  My spouse can build/fix/make anything and I'm no slouch either.  We have considered some of the following options, and I'm curious how others feel about this philosophically, or if others have struggled with similar issues.

Baseline considerations:  Downsides of our current location is that it's hotter than the devil's netherbits in summer, full of blood-sucking mosquitoes and every crop-destroying pest known to humanity, no real seasons/winter to speak of, politically it is the reddest of the red while we are very progressive.  Upsides are that land is fairly cheap, taxes low, water plentiful, growing season long.  Possibility of some part-time work at university for a couple of years after early retirement.  We have friends here, but most are planning to gtfo after retirement.  Options we have considered:

1) purchase land within commuting distance of university, start magical rainbow unicorn permaculture paradise (thus 5 years ahead when it's time to really do the deed), but then commit to staying in this problematic place forever?  If we were starting from scratch we would never pick this place out of a lineup.

2) keep socking our money away and wait until it's time, then jump into a completely new place without a good knowledge of the location, trusting we find an incredible realtor or renting for a year before buying (another year lost)

3) build container house "pods" kitchen/baths/mechanicals that could be moved someplace in 5 years and form the foundation to get a house built quickly once there, spreading the expense and effort out over the next few years

4) ???

What do you think?  We will need health insurance at age 55/59, no major health issues for now, we are fit and active, but still that's no picnic.  This state has done everything it can to destroy/limit ACA and no Medicaid expansion.  It's poor af so many rural hospitals closed and I can't imagine the nightmare of COVID will have helped that situation any.  For those of you who are progressive and either stayed in or left a red state, how big a difference in your life did it make and why? 

[Fishindude]

If you don't like where you live, figure out a way to get out of there ASAP to someplace you like.
There are no do overs in life and time gets away fast.

[Sandi_k]

Get out.

As another university employee - in a blue state - lower cost of living is no substitute for medical care infrastructure, better weather, and spending your leisure time with educated human beings.

Also, as a retired professor, you can get an ad hoc teaching job in your field at other universities, and I am sure they'd love to hire you since you'd be salary only, with no benefits paid - thus cheap, like an itinerant lecturer. ;)

Use your vacations over the next 5 years to explore. And stop framing a move as "losing" another year - you're gaining your wings to fly to a new habitat that will let you THRIVE instead of EXIST.

[Dee18]

Another vote for move now.  Or definitely in 5 years.  I stayed in a red state (possibly the same one as you from the description) until my full retirement from academia in 2020.  I have since been able to rent for 6 months in my favorite blue state and am now trying to buy a place where I want to live in that state.  Evaluate where you are financially and consider how soon you can afford to leave.  Count Social Security.  Expect that over the long run your investments will grow.  The sooner you move the sooner you will have good friendships in your new home.  I absolutely would not build container house pods with the goal of moving them unless you are certain they will work in the place to which you are moving. 

[DaTrill]

Move to a blue state and reap what you've sown.   

[slugsworth]

#2 or #4.

Agreeing with everyone, #1 is a horrible idea, live where you want to live. #3, is silly. How are you at welding? There is just a ton of funky building science challenges with containers. I just don't understand the fascination with this building method.

#4, if you've got an area in mind, you could buy land sooner and use vacation time to get started on construction if you want to take that on yourself.  I would consider just starting with the planting of trees, etc.   

[lhamo]

Can you take larger chunks of time off during the summers and do some WWOOFing or otherwise engaging with the permaculture community in some targeted areas where you might like to retire?

Could you take a year or a semester sabbatical once you have narrowed down your area of interests and live for a month or two in the targeted areas during the winter to see if you can handle the weather/lack of light if you are moving further north (the PNW is great for almost year-round growing, but many find our grey, gloomy winters hard to tolerate.

I would definitely re-examine how you are approaching this last push to FIRE.  I question whether you really need to be as miserable at work as you sound.

[pegleglolita]

An important piece of info I forgot to include:  we have a child currently in college at said university, which has generous dependent education benefits for tuition.  Staying until kid graduates (4 years) is an important part of our FIRE plan.  Also, vis-a-vis container thoughts my spouse is a contractor with Jedi level skills in welding, framing, fine carpentry, metalwork, electrical, etc. and will be building our retirement home. 

[SailingOnASmallSailboat]

How about using your summers and other University breaks to explore possible landing spots? Identify maybe 4 options for you and go live there a summer and one winter break each.

If you hate where you are, buying a permanent place there is not the answer.

Other thing to really investigate is the college cost handcuffs. Generous tuition benefits might not, in the long run, actually amount to much if your state school has a low tuition cost. If the benefit is a $5000 a year bonus, is that $5k/year worth your mental sanity?

Agree with @lhamo questioning whether you really need to be this miserable.

[lhamo]

Another thought:

Purchase some cheap land where you are now and do a bunch of low-cost permaculture improvements to it.  Even if you end up not staying there long term, you will learn a lot through the experimenting and probably improve the value of the land without a huge capital investment.  Plus you will keep your mind and soul engaged in something you find less draining as you count down to FIRE.

Invite permies from the north to come and camp on/help out with your land in the colder seasons.  You may find people interested in doing a longer-term exchange of that sort -- they host you during the summers and you host them during the winters.  Maybe you end up moving permanently further north, maybe not.  But it opens up more possibilities than just waiting.

Selfishly I would like to see more liberal folk staying in red states -- maybe eventually we can flip the vote. 

[rothwem]

I think another thing to mention is that if you're planning on living out in the sticks, it doesn't really matter what state you're in, people are going to be pretty conservative.  I grew up in central Maryland between DC and Baltimore, and its about as liberal as it gets.  My Father is from the northeastern part of the state though, which is incredibly flat and rural.  My Grandmother still lives there and I think I see more Trump flags visiting her than in North Carolina where I live. 

[FINate]

4) Spend the next 4 years researching new places. Make trips to candidate locations and really get to know them then decide on an area you want to target. You have time, so watch the market for a good deal/ideal lot. Then make the leap with the confidence that you've done all you can to prepare for the change.

[ChpBstrd]

If you start at 55, you'll have several physically active years to nurture a garden, but a 20 acre mini-farm would soon fall into disrepair. You aren't 30 any more. I mean, you might keep it up for 10 years, but then what?

Additionally, you'll find it tough at age 55 to DIY a new house. There's no shortage of existing houses on a couple/few acres. The life you want could be as simple as buying one of these. Take advantage of low interest rates and have it remodded before you move in.

Third, you note wanting to move to a blue state that is less of a medical death trap than your current state. That is understandable, but you can move to a place with much better access to care without decamping for California or Massachusetts and saving the millions of dollars your dream would require in those places. Quite frankly, your biggest barrier to obtaining healthcare will be (a) your location if rural - much higher fatality rate there, and (b) your ability to pay money - which is impacted by housing costs.

Here's how I put all three of the above observations together to write a prescription:

You should shop for an existing house that you can remodel or have remodeled on a few, but not too many, acres in a midwest purple or light red state that has expanded Medicaid, and within a 30 minute drive to a hospital and clinics.

This strategy will allow you to retire much earlier than you might have previously planned, with almost all the benefits, and without paying out the nose for RE.

A few final considerations though: What makes running a small farm so appealing? Is it much more tangible and unlike being a professor? Is it symbolic of an anticipated emotional state, like a low-stress lifestyle, that is actually the specific thing you are seeking? Is it a personally and socially acceptable explanation for quitting a tenured position? Does living in a red or blue state matter if you spend your days working a rural property and don't have many friends? Where do the kids want to move (seeing them regularly will be a big happiness driver as you get older)? Think hard on these questions, because upon quitting you might find that the lifestyle does not perform as expected, or you might only then see that there were dozens of other potential ways to be happy that were obscured by the mini-farm vision. E.g. what if an urban lifestyle where you quickly get to know 10 neighbors and have time to socialize instead of always fixing things would make you happier than a rural lifestyle where people keep to themselves except at the right-wing megachurch?

[clarkfan1979]

I am sorry that you don't like where you live or your job. If I was in your position, it would be important for me to be making small steps to a better life every single day. Mentally, I wouldn't be able to "suck it up" for another 5 years. Life is too short.

I am surprised that you are tenured and you describe your job as a grind. I understand the grind "pre-tenure" but it shouldn't be a grind "post-tenure". It often not supposed to be soul sucking because the research and teaching is supposed to be based on a topic in which the person is passionate.

I teach full-time at a community college. My son gets free tuition age 18-25 at any of the 13 community colleges in our state. Many of them now offer 4-year degrees. Our college offers 6 different 4-year degrees. Even though we plan on using the free tuition for him, I wouldn't be willing to live somewhere I didn't like at a job I didn't like, just for the free tuition. It's a pretty small piece to the puzzle.

[Fishindude]

There is a possibility you could move to the most blue voting state in the nation and still wind up with very red minded neighbors on each side of you.

[Dr Kidstache]

I am surprised that you are tenured and you describe your job as a grind. I understand the grind "pre-tenure" but it shouldn't be a grind "post-tenure". It often not supposed to be soul sucking because the research and teaching is supposed to be based on a topic in which the person is passionate.

Just piping in to say that academic medicine is never *not* a grind. If you think regular academic careers are toxic, academic medicine is a whole other level of hell. Having been in it myself, I suspect that the OP is in much worse shape than they even realize. It's the analogy of the frog being slowly boiled - you just adapt and acculturate to such levels of duress that you don't actually realize how profoundly f'd up your situation is.

I agree with the other posters who are encouraging a change sooner rather than later. If you're tenured, you've been earning an attending's salary for decades. And if you're on this forum, you've likely not spent it all like your peers. So it's possible that you don't need those golden handcuffs anymore but the idea of leaving medicine (the guilt, the loss of identity, etc) is so foreign that it's hard to see from where you are. Will you actually enjoy your daydream? Only one way to find out!

[pegleglolita]

I am surprised that you are tenured and you describe your job as a grind. I understand the grind "pre-tenure" but it shouldn't be a grind "post-tenure". It often not supposed to be soul sucking because the research and teaching is supposed to be based on a topic in which the person is passionate.

Just piping in to say that academic medicine is never *not* a grind. If you think regular academic careers are toxic, academic medicine is a whole other level of hell. Having been in it myself, I suspect that the OP is in much worse shape than they even realize. It's the analogy of the frog being slowly boiled - you just adapt and acculturate to such levels of duress that you don't actually realize how profoundly f'd up your situation is.

I agree with the other posters who are encouraging a change sooner rather than later. If you're tenured, you've been earning an attending's salary for decades. And if you're on this forum, you've likely not spent it all like your peers. So it's possible that you don't need those golden handcuffs anymore but the idea of leaving medicine (the guilt, the loss of identity, etc) is so foreign that it's hard to see from where you are. Will you actually enjoy your daydream? Only one way to find out!

Thanks Dr Kidstache, it's kind of hard to explain to folks why it's so simultaneously rewarding and soul-sucking at the same time.  I think when people imagine "university professor" they imagine someone on a 9-month appointment who only has to be a triple threat (teaching, research, a few committees) rather than the quadruple threat of award-winning teacher, $3 million RO1 holder, residency supervisor, on multiple hiring/college/hospital committees, and boarded clinical or diagnostic specialist on the bleeding edge (pun intended).  Many years and a lot of sacrifice (ours and others') goes into getting to a place and there is a lot of identity wrapped up in it even when it's kind of killing you.  It's almost like that relationship book called "Too good to leave, too bad to stay" or something like that.  Insert cry-laughing emoji here.

[Cranky]

So, we recently made this decision, and for us a big part of the decision was where we would find our long term community.

Dh was a full professor at a state university in a struggling Rust Belt area. At this point, the university’s future is cloudy and the area has drifted to the right from its previous Labor Democrats voting record. We liked our neighborhood, but it seemed possible that we wouldn’t go on feeling that way.

We had many close friends there, but almost without exception they left when they retired, often because their children had moved away so they had no family in the area. 2 of our 3 daughters had moved away after college.

So, we chose to follow them. Moving is hard. I don’t feel quite at home yet. I think we will, though, as there are so many people here with similar interests. Lots of big gardens!

OTOH, my sister and her husband are left wing atheists living in West Texas, and they’ve decided to stay put. They have a strong circle of friends with shared interests and activities.

[Dr Kidstache]

I am surprised that you are tenured and you describe your job as a grind. I understand the grind "pre-tenure" but it shouldn't be a grind "post-tenure". It often not supposed to be soul sucking because the research and teaching is supposed to be based on a topic in which the person is passionate.

Just piping in to say that academic medicine is never *not* a grind. If you think regular academic careers are toxic, academic medicine is a whole other level of hell. Having been in it myself, I suspect that the OP is in much worse shape than they even realize. It's the analogy of the frog being slowly boiled - you just adapt and acculturate to such levels of duress that you don't actually realize how profoundly f'd up your situation is.

I agree with the other posters who are encouraging a change sooner rather than later. If you're tenured, you've been earning an attending's salary for decades. And if you're on this forum, you've likely not spent it all like your peers. So it's possible that you don't need those golden handcuffs anymore but the idea of leaving medicine (the guilt, the loss of identity, etc) is so foreign that it's hard to see from where you are. Will you actually enjoy your daydream? Only one way to find out!

Thanks Dr Kidstache, it's kind of hard to explain to folks why it's so simultaneously rewarding and soul-sucking at the same time.  I think when people imagine "university professor" they imagine someone on a 9-month appointment who only has to be a triple threat (teaching, research, a few committees) rather than the quadruple threat of award-winning teacher, $3 million RO1 holder, residency supervisor, on multiple hiring/college/hospital committees, and boarded clinical or diagnostic specialist on the bleeding edge (pun intended).  Many years and a lot of sacrifice (ours and others') goes into getting to a place and there is a lot of identity wrapped up in it even when it's kind of killing you.  It's almost like that relationship book called "Too good to leave, too bad to stay" or something like that.  Insert cry-laughing emoji here.

I see you.

I had to leave academic medicine suddenly because of a devastating injury that ended my career. I don't think I would have ever voluntarily left and I loved it. I even loved it enough to stay through incredibly toxic environments (for instance, no lie - I was once told I shouldn't complain about something by a more senior female physician because at least I hadn't been sexually assaulted by my supervisor like she and another female physician had; another time I was also told that I should cry at work because then I would seem like I was breaking and wouldn't be considered a professional threat to more senior male physicians anymore who BTW willfully sabotaged one of my clinical research studies. And that's just the background sort of stuff while running codes and having patients die and trying to teach trainees while trying to turn chaos into order. I could go on but I think the non-academic medicine readers get the picture). Although leaving medicine was never a choice I would have made at the time, the distance from my career that I've had since leaving has really given me the space to realize how insanely, totally fucked up that world is and what a toll it was taking on me.

But I'm not gonna lie, I lost nearly everything in the aftermath of my injury but the loss of doctor smarty pants identity has been one of the roughest losses. It's been years and it's still a small piece of me. The grind of medical school, residency, fellowship, other academic advanced degrees, grant battles, promotion packs, etc is such a deep acculturation that I don't think it ever really goes away. Plus, by the time that you're tenured with R01s let's be honest, there's been some cutthroat moves in there as well because somebody has to get the authorship credits and PI status. It's just a lot. So much that it might feel like too much to have gone through to walk away. But you really do have a choice and it's okay to walk away. It's not quitting, it's not letting the department down, it's not wasting all your training and sacrifice. At the end of the day, it's just a job that we have turned into an identity.

I'm not telling you to quit your job. I'm just saying that it's a real, actual choice that you could make.

[meadow lark]

Wait, you can’t be in the worst state cuz I’m in the worst state.  Unless… we’re neighbors?

[Tom Bri]

Just my opinion, but people are individuals, not political identities. For me, a major part of being happy where I live is the quality of my immediate neighbors, which isn't much related to how they vote. You may move to a nice, blue area and end up with pissy neighbors, or buy a place near where you are now and get nice neighbors.

The trend in the last decade has been for blue state people to move to red states. It's a bit unusual to hear about someone looking to retire from an inexpensive (I assume) red state to an expensive blue state. You might want to investigate why this is happening. Do the reasons people have for leaving blue states for red apply to you?

Considerations:
1. How many friends do you have where you are now, and how easily you can find new ones where you move.
2. Climate. You apparently hate the climate where you live now, so how heavily does that weigh? The heat will only feel worse as you age, and will sharply limit how much farm work you can do. And climate is nothing you can do anything about.
3. Medical care. I live in a blue state, but outside the biggest cities medical care is not great, and small hospitals are suffering and closing down. I suspect that any blue state you move to will be similar. So if you want the rural life, this may be what you will face, unless you choose your location very carefully. A large plot of land that happens to be close to urban amenities and an excellent hospital is likely to be very expensive.

Incidentally, my wife is talking about moving to Texas, because she hates winter and our daughter has moved there. Personally, I love heat and think I will like it there, but I also believe she will hate it there, for various reasons. So I am conflicted.

[JupiterGreen]

Wait, you can’t be in the worst state cuz I’m in the worst state.  Unless… we’re neighbors?

Nope, I live in the worst state, ha. I am also in education but don't have as "sweet" a gig as the OP. It sounds like they have a fancy union.

I will be moving from a red state to a blue state (low to v. high COL) as soon as humanly possible. Unless you've lived in a red state for at least a decade (I came from a blue state and still have family there but have been living in a red state for about 16 years), you probably can't understand the slow thin slices that are carved from your brain by being surrounded by a bunch of people who want to kill you with their guns and freedom. My neighbors are fine, but I work so I don't stay inside my home. Between the utterly infuriating billboards and personal signs that are sometimes blocking the sidewalk, the unmasked everywhere and pushing into you because you're wearing a mask, the people actively voting for more pollution and deregulations that will shorten their (and my) lives, it's terrible. Our state also wants to kill us. It did very little for the citizens during the pandemic, they hid the numbers, they made it worse. We are at the top of death/population and unvaccinated. I work in education and the students are not required to be vaccinated...I could go on.

There are better red states/areas. For instance, I could be in Austin, Texas which is probably amazing. Ashville, NC samesies. But please, if you haven't lived in a red state the suggestion that there is no difference is absolutely absurd.

[GoConfidently]

Is it possible for spouse to downshift their career as a contractor now? That would allow them to begin the great land hunt - meaning you both sit down and write must haves, dealbreakers, and dream goals together but they do all the leg work to find the right place (and pick up some slack at home) while you continue to work. Flying out to visit communities, meeting with realtors, reviewing tax/code issues for what you need in various locations. Once they’ve narrowed it down to a few ideal places, you both visit and then they can work with a realtor (or not) to start finding the right piece of land.

Best case - you agree on a place and find the dream spot immediately and purchase. Spouse is able to fly out and take care of all the inspections and closing and details while you work uninterrupted. Great. Now spouse has the rest of your 4 year minimum to get land cleared, driveways put in, foundations poured, utilities hooked up, permits to build, make contact with local vendors and crews, build fences, put up a barn, begin prepping land for the garden areas, etc. You can even put an RV on the property or clean up an existing home on the land  and spend vacation time there together.

Worst case - you can’t find the right spot and keep looking after retirement and then you both have to get all the things above done before you can start building your home and gardens

[freedomfightergal]

Wait, you can’t be in the worst state cuz I’m in the worst state.  Unless… we’re neighbors?

Nope, I live in the worst state, ha. I am also in education but don't have as "sweet" a gig as the OP. It sounds like they have a fancy union.

I will be moving from a red state to a blue state (low to v. high COL) as soon as humanly possible. Unless you've lived in a red state for at least a decade (I came from a blue state and still have family there but have been living in a red state for about 16 years), you probably can't understand the slow thin slices that are carved from your brain by being surrounded by a bunch of people who want to kill you with their guns and freedom. My neighbors are fine, but I work so I don't stay inside my home. Between the utterly infuriating billboards and personal signs that are sometimes blocking the sidewalk, the unmasked everywhere and pushing into you because you're wearing a mask, the people actively voting for more pollution and deregulations that will shorten their (and my) lives, it's terrible. Our state also wants to kill us. It did very little for the citizens during the pandemic, they hid the numbers, they made it worse. We are at the top of death/population and unvaccinated. I work in education and the students are not required to be vaccinated...I could go on.

There are better red states/areas. For instance, I could be in Austin, Texas which is probably amazing. Ashville, NC samesies. But please, if you haven't lived in a red state the suggestion that there is no difference is absolutely absurd.

I feel you!  I just moved from a deep red area, of a Red state, to a blue area in a purple state and it's wonderful!  I feel like I'm back in civilization. I think it's hard for people to comprehend the feeling of being surrounded by people that may appear normal, but you worry they'd be happy to shoot you in a heartbeat if you mention Universal Healthcare! lol

[stashja]

There is a possibility you could move to the most blue voting state in the nation and still wind up with very red minded neighbors on each side of you.

True. I'm in a red state. I teach at the university. I live on a farm. I love my blue neighbors! They are smart scientists and the best!