Author Topic: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion  (Read 1098 times)

cooking

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Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« on: March 03, 2021, 04:07:53 PM »
This might sound like a long question, but it's only the setup that's a little lengthy; I think that the answer (for those who know about residential construction costs) is pretty straightforward.  So please bear with me here. The actual question is, what percentage of total square foot costs of a house are represented by the finishing of the inside?

To be more specific, construction of a 2k SF bi-level (this is what in my area we call a 2 story on a slab with the entry between the 2 floors so you either go up or down a half flight upon entry).  So what percentage of the cost of a square foot is represented by the cost of the slab, framing, roof structure, windows, doors, sheathing and vapor/air barriers, and all exterior finishing including siding and roofing?  Or to ask the question slightly differently, what percentage of the total cost is composed of insulation, interior partitions and closets, trimwork, drywall and its finish, 2 full baths, kitchen, wiring, plumbing, HVAC?  Of course I mean materials and labor, but not putting the land into the equation.   Maybe I should add that I'm assuming all mid-range finishes, nothing very fancy in or out,  but good insulation values.  But I guess none of this would matter much when we're talking about a percentage.  So if I know to a reasonable degree of certainty what the cost of the finished shell is, I can ballpark the cost of completion after that.

And while we're on the topic, maybe I could sneak in one more question.  Is a bi-level style(such as I described) the style of house that would yield the most bang for the buck in terms of cost per SF?

joenorm

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2021, 06:54:37 AM »
This is way too hard to guess at not knowing site conditions and local building costs/practices.

With my recent partial DIY build on an easy lot I bet I was 35-40% into my budget with a finished "dried in" shell. Then comes plumbing, electrical, insulation, drywall, cabinets, flooring, bathrooms, kitchens, and the list never ends and the money flows easy.


Fishindude

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2021, 07:11:05 AM »
Really no way to answer the first half of your question accurately without an actual project estimate.   Around here new homes run around $200 per SF (and that can vary wildly), wild guess half of the money gets the "shell" built, the remainder pays for the "guts" and finishes.

What you are describing is what we used to call a Tri-level (house has actually three floor levels).   Come in the front door at grade, down a half flight of stairs to part of the house, up a half flight of stairs to another part of the house.   This is a really a pretty crummy design by todays standards, they were a popular trend in the 70's for some reason.   Maneuvering stairs constantly to get around your house is nor desired by most, so we build single level homes or two story homes where bedrooms are upstairs, possibly even two story with basement where a bonus room and mechanicals are in basement.   Most living is done on the main floor in a typical modern home.

PMJL34

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2021, 10:52:07 AM »
OP,

That is one confusing question. What are you most worried about? Once we know your fears, then we can better guide you.

To answer your second question: a traditional two story with square or rectangular footprint will be the cheapest cost wise per square footage. Even a one story large foot print is most likely cheaper than a tri-level. I don't get the appeal of the tri level you are describing.

Best of luck!


Papa bear

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2021, 12:24:29 PM »
Really no way to answer the first half of your question accurately without an actual project estimate.   Around here new homes run around $200 per SF (and that can vary wildly), wild guess half of the money gets the "shell" built, the remainder pays for the "guts" and finishes.

What you are describing is what we used to call a Tri-level (house has actually three floor levels).   Come in the front door at grade, down a half flight of stairs to part of the house, up a half flight of stairs to another part of the house.   This is a really a pretty crummy design by todays standards, they were a popular trend in the 70's for some reason.   Maneuvering stairs constantly to get around your house is nor desired by most, so we build single level homes or two story homes where bedrooms are upstairs, possibly even two story with basement where a bonus room and mechanicals are in basement.   Most living is done on the main floor in a typical modern home.
How I’m thinking that OP might be describing is what we call in our area a “raised ranch” where you enter halfway between top and bottom floor.  The bottom floor sits 1/2 below grade, as a sort of “basement.”  Probably similar to what you’re describing. 

Agree with you on costs.


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sonofsven

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2021, 03:35:36 PM »
We call that a "split level" in my neck of the woods; kids go downstairs, adults go up (we visited cousins...)
Total (informed) WAG: one third shell, two thirds finish.

cooking

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2021, 04:11:48 PM »
I think Papa Bear's description is closest to what we call a bi-level around here.  Only difference being that when he says the bottom floor is halfway below grade, this would normally only be true in the case that the house is sited on a sloping lot.  Otherwise, Papa bear, we're on the same page.  Fishindude is def thinking of a different style, what we call a "split" or split-level around here.  The bi-level only has 2 levels, as Papa bear said.  And yes, both these designs were popular in the 60's and 70's, as Fishindude pointed out.

The cost advantage of a bi-level is the savings on not building a basement, I think.  In the NY metro suburbs,  this style (and the split, which I'm not considering building because I think the construction costs of it would be a lot higher) still do very well on resale.  Our housing stock here is generally older than most other parts of the country, so maybe they resell so well because we northeasterners consider them to be sort of new even when they're actually 50-60 yrs. old.  We tend to keep our houses going more than the south and SW parts of the country do.  New construction is almost exclusively neo-colonials, which are usually expected to come with full basements, so the cost of construction of the latter is a lot higher. In my case, I'm trying to get the most bang for the buck in terms of usable square footage, so that's why I'm leaning towards a bi-level.  And that was the reason for my question about whether my impression that this style was the most economical psf was true.  As for what you mentioned about all the stairs, Fishindude, the entry door on a basic bi-level could be and often is dropped to the ground level so you essentially have a 2 story on a slab, or what we call a raised ranch here.  As to your cautions on the shape, PMJL34, I'm not going for anything fancy.  Just a rectangle.  Not meant to be mine or anyone else's dream home.

I know there are tons of variables that go into a psf cost, so that's really why I didn't pose that question.  I guess the percentage cost of the dried- in shell would depend on the difficulty of the site, so for these purposes, I'm assuming an average, flat building site, and ignoring the costs of land, and city /sewer water hookup costs, which I can get from the town.  So I get a price on the dried in shell erected on a slab and I know how much that will cost (give or take, I know).  I'm trying to ballpark what percentage of the way I am to habitability, as I tried to describe in my OP.  Joenorm's 30-40% estimate on the dried-in shell is appreciated, but since he DIYed it for the shell and will apparently have pros complete the inside, it kind of makes the equation lopsided, so maybe the interior costs are a greater proportion than usual.  Also, I wasn't clear as to whether he ignored his land costs in his equation, as I'm trying to do with mine.

Thanks to all of you who are taking a stab at this to help me.  Hoping to hear more people chime in if possible.

cooking

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2021, 04:16:34 PM »
I was typing my last post when your post came in, sonofsven, so I just wanted to tell you the estimate is appreciated, although I have no idea what WAG means (I am a tech idiot).     

joenorm

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2021, 04:59:08 PM »
I ignored land costs.

This is honestly too hard a question to answer. It all depends who's doing what, what type of house, where you are, etc.......

I think if you do a combination of DIY and subs through your build, the 40% number for the shell will be close.

Papa bear

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2021, 07:52:27 PM »
I was typing my last post when your post came in, sonofsven, so I just wanted to tell you the estimate is appreciated, although I have no idea what WAG means (I am a tech idiot).   
WAG - wild ass guess


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joenorm

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2021, 08:01:31 AM »
Your siding, roofing, window, and door choice will push the percentage around a lot.

I used a metal roof, combination metal and wood siding, better than average windows and doors. I could have saved a lot in the "shell" cost by using comp roof, vinyl siding, vinyl windows and doors.

But that is not the house I wanted.

PMJL34

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2021, 10:09:47 AM »
I think I understand you better. Still not in agreement that this split level is your best bang of your buck over a traditional two story or one story rectangle.

IMO and WAG (lol never heard this before, but I like it)...The shell + permit fees is like 70% of the cost. The inside is just paint, floor, kitchen and bathroom/s.

The shell is a lot of work and material and permit fees add up....foundation, framing lumber, siding, roof, doors, windows. That's the bulk of the cost in my opinion if you are willing to go cheapish for kitchen and bathrooms.

Papa bear

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Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2021, 12:13:14 PM »
I think I understand you better. Still not in agreement that this split level is your best bang of your buck over a traditional two story or one story rectangle.

IMO and WAG (lol never heard this before, but I like it)...The shell + permit fees is like 70% of the cost. The inside is just paint, floor, kitchen and bathroom/s.

The shell is a lot of work and material and permit fees add up....foundation, framing lumber, siding, roof, doors, windows. That's the bulk of the cost in my opinion if you are willing to go cheapish for kitchen and bathrooms.
I guess my definition of shell is different than yours.  My shell is getting the property in the dry.  Foundation, framing, sheathing, wrb, roof, siding, windows, doors. 

Interior is mechanicals - electric, plumbing, HVAC, insulation, drywall, interior millwork, finish carpentry, cabinetry, fixtures, etc. 

I’m still on board with fishindude and his numbers. 


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PMJL34

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2021, 01:50:12 PM »
Papa bear,

Yup different definitions. I mean the question is just odd to start with. I'm still not even sure what this question is regarding to or what it's purpose is so again we're all just throwing out numbers. Evryone goes by total build cost per sq ft.   

cooking

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2021, 06:02:58 PM »
Papa bear again hit the nail on the head as to what I intended to include on the 2 different sides of the equation.  Inside and outside work just as he described.

As far as the "style" of the house issue, I think our varied regional biases are kind of confusing the issue.  It is decidedly not a split level I have in mind, b/c around here a split is at least 3 levels.  Mine will be only 2 levels total, one the ground floor and the other being the upper level, whatever you want to call it.  So maybe it's easier to think of it as a colonial built on a slab,  instead of being built on a basement or crawl space.  I wouldn't think that the entry being on the ground floor (what we call a raised ranch) or between the lower and upper levels (what we call a bi-level) would have much impact on the building costs.  So what I have in mind is what we here call a raised ranch or bi-level, depending upon whether the door is at ground level or halfway between the 2 floors.

The question might seem strange, but for some reason I find it comforting if indeed Fishindude's answer is close to the mark.  Maybe b/c I'm going to get contract prices on the sitework prep/ slab and shell that I described previously.  So when those are complete, if Fishindude is right, I can think of it as being somewhere around halfway in moneywise.  The finishes I have in mind won't be impressive but I am going for durable.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2021, 06:39:03 PM »
We are building a house totally ourselves and the costs are jaw dropping

I don't think you can budget a shell when you start the project with OSB at $8 a sheet and mid project it goes to $28 a sheet.

Don't build a house to save money!  Used houses are WAY underpriced vs the cost of materials now.

joenorm

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2021, 08:07:48 PM »
We are building a house totally ourselves and the costs are jaw dropping

I don't think you can budget a shell when you start the project with OSB at $8 a sheet and mid project it goes to $28 a sheet.

Don't build a house to save money!  Used houses are WAY underpriced vs the cost of materials now.

Having just finished building, I disagree. While materials have gone up(especially lately), it still doesn't compare to labor costs. You can still come out way ahead building for yourself. But this is coming form a HCOL area where the cost of subs is outrageous so if you can perform the work your time is very , very valuable.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2021, 08:18:34 PM »
Having just finished building, I disagree. While materials have gone up(especially lately), it still doesn't compare to labor costs. You can still come out way ahead building for yourself. But this is coming form a HCOL area where the cost of subs is outrageous so if you can perform the work your time is very , very valuable.

Maybe in a HCOL area.   I just know that we are building a relatively small house (1400 square feet) and just the windows and doors are close to $10,000.   That is 5% of the price of a $200,000 home (which includes land) and it is just friggen windows and a few doors.

I fear our 1400 sq ft house will end up being around $300,000 when all is said and done, and this is doing every bit of work ourselves, even digging the foundation.   Everything costs.   It is around $10,000 just to connect water, gas, sewer, electricity.   $10,000 here, $10,000 there, it adds up so fast.

New homes also require all of the fancy new code stuff like arc fault breakers, which are NOT $5 each.

SndcxxJ

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Re: Calling all contractors/builders, etc. for opinion
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2021, 08:58:53 PM »
I'll take a stab at costs:
(Labor and materials inclusive)
Foundation, grading, preparing the site 20%
Framing 20%
Roof 5%
Sewer/drains 5%
Plumbing 5%
Electrical 5%
HVAC 5%
Stucco exterior 5%
Insulation 2%
Sheetrock/tape/texture/paint 5%
Kitchen (cabinets/countertops/fixtures/appliances) 10%
Bathroom (two full baths, vanities/countertops, fixtures) 5%
Flooring 3%
Doors/baseboard/shelves/trim 2%
Hardware (door knobs, towel bars, etc. etc. etc) 2%
Misc. 1%

No including land, plans, permits, or fees. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!