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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Real Estate and Landlording => Topic started by: Vitai Slade on March 26, 2015, 04:37:52 AM

Title: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Vitai Slade on March 26, 2015, 04:37:52 AM
So I just got an accepted bid on a short sale property about five minutes from my house. It was built in 2007, is in pretty great shape, and I got it for a heck of a deal! The property value estimate (haven't had an official appraisal yet) is around $72-78k. They were asking $64.5k and I got an accepted bid offer at $62k. For a few months worth of waiting through the short sale garbage, I'd say it's worth it! Instant equity. From what I can tell, the only thing it needs cosmetically is some new carpet, some paint, pressure wash of the outside, some new blinds, and a new fence. Still need an inspection to tell if there is any other damage that I can't see, but it was built in 2007... it shouldn't be THAT bad, if anything. And if it is, I can always get my binder deposit back. New A/C unit and water heater, roof looks really good too. 3br/2ba 1,152sq. feet w/ one car garage. I'm guessing that I should be able to rent it from $950-$1,200 for the area. Not gotten an official estimate on that either yet, but I'd say that knowing rent prices around me, it's pretty fair.

So this is huge for me. I'm excited about it, but nervous about getting shitty renters. I've heard too many horror stories. I was told to always run credit, but not sure what exactly to look for. 650+? Everyones credit is in the dump right now except mine, it seems. I'm thinking of asking for first months rent and a deposit equal to one months rent before move-in. If they have pets, should I charge monthly or do a one time pet fee of say... $300 or so? What about more than one pet? How long should I have the lease for? one year minimum? month-to-month? six months? What about the lease itself? Should I write up my own or maybe go around to an apartment complex and put my name at the top and use theirs (or a slightly edited version of theirs)?

I know about the 1% rule and I'm pretty sure I did well in regards to that. I'll absolutely be able to rent it for $620/mo. in worst case scenario. I'm renting a single room in my house for almost that much. Anything I should be on the lookout for as a new landlord? (And by new, I mean with them having the whole place to themselves without me living there too) Anything I should know?

Oh, and what about taxes? How do I deal with that now? Do I need a business name and incorporate or what? Insurance?
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Coopertoo on March 26, 2015, 05:45:37 AM
I think the best thing you can do is be patient to get good renters.  Don't be in a hurry to rent right away.  In my area lots if good people have pets.  I charge $200 but probably should be more.  I like year leases that don't end in the winter.  It always seems to be a bad sign if a renter needs a place immediately - relocating for a new job is often an exception.  My application is pretty hard core and it scares off some people which seems to work well for me.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Another Reader on March 26, 2015, 07:03:03 AM
Did the bank accept your offer or did the seller accept your offer and it was sent to the bank?  You do not have a deal until you have approval from the lender.

I think this guy has a lot of good basic landlord information.  http://www.nononsenselandlord.com/
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 26, 2015, 09:41:21 AM
Did the bank accept your offer or did the seller accept your offer and it was sent to the bank?  You do not have a deal until you have approval from the lender.

This.

So this is huge for me. I'm excited about it, but nervous about getting shitty renters. I've heard too many horror stories. I was told to always run credit, but not sure what exactly to look for. 650+? Everyones credit is in the dump right now except mine, it seems. I'm thinking of asking for first months rent and a deposit equal to one months rent before move-in. If they have pets, should I charge monthly or do a one time pet fee of say... $300 or so? What about more than one pet? How long should I have the lease for? one year minimum? month-to-month? six months? What about the lease itself? Should I write up my own or maybe go around to an apartment complex and put my name at the top and use theirs (or a slightly edited version of theirs)?
...
Oh, and what about taxes? How do I deal with that now? Do I need a business name and incorporate or what? Insurance?

Are you getting a mortgage, or paying cash?  If you're getting a mortgage, likely the bank will escrow taxes and insurance, but you'll want to search around for a good insurance quote.

The numbers sound pretty good, it should be a solid first rental.  Tenants are key.  Find good ones, and minimize turnover, and you'll do great.

Sounds like it's time for you to start reading some books on land lording.  :)

Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 01:25:22 PM
The first time I rented out my house I rushed to get a renter. I checked his credit and income were great, but something was off. I could not put my finger on why something felt wrong with this guy. He was single and said that he was only going to bring his girlfriend. To make a long story short, after renting to him I found out that he was only doing a favor for his mistress to get her a house. The mistress brought in her mom, kids, and boyfriend. It was a big mess and I could not even sleep from the stress. Finally after a year I got them out of there but my house was a mess.

So my advice, only rent it out with someone who you feel really really comfortable. Check the credit and income really good. If you see any red flags just pass on it. who cares how long it sits, its not worth it to rush. Thank God the second renter has been awesome and I felt from the beginning that he gave me a good vibe.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 26, 2015, 01:29:48 PM
So I gotta counter the above advice, cause it could get you in legal trouble due to the Fair Housing Act.

Don't act on gut feel.

Have written criteria, and rent to the first applicant that passes that.

Certainly if there are any red flags that come up, don't rent.  But if you rely on gut feel red flags, and they come back and claim discrimination, and you can't document why you didn't rent to them, watch out for big fines and possibly jail time.

Unlikely?  Absolutely.  Worth the risk?  No way.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: CowboyAndIndian on March 26, 2015, 01:48:08 PM
Don't act on gut feel.

Have written criteria, and rent to the first applicant that passes that.

ARS, can you post your written criteria? I do understand if you do not wish to.
Thanks
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 26, 2015, 01:57:11 PM
Don't act on gut feel.

Have written criteria, and rent to the first applicant that passes that.

ARS, can you post your written criteria? I do understand if you do not wish to.
Thanks

My guidelines for written criteria would be like:
Income at least 1 times rent.
Credit score at least 500.
No more than 12 felonies.
No more than 17 pets, at least 1/3 must be snakes.
Have held current job for no longer than 12 days.

Okay, I'm kidding.  But those are the sort of things to consider.  (Typically income should be 3x rent, the others you set based on what you feel like, but the above are all good things to consider -- criminal history, credit score, pets, length of time at job, etc.)

Also put in that they must pay first month's rent and security deposit up front (or split in some way that you're consistent on).
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 04:15:33 PM
So I gotta counter the above advice, cause it could get you in legal trouble due to the Fair Housing Act.

Don't act on gut feel.

Have written criteria, and rent to the first applicant that passes that.

Certainly if there are any red flags that come up, don't rent.  But if you rely on gut feel red flags, and they come back and claim discrimination, and you can't document why you didn't rent to them, watch out for big fines and possibly jail time.

Unlikely?  Absolutely.  Worth the risk?  No way.

I have been renting out two houses for several years. Here in CA, I have never heard of anyone getting fined or sued for simply not wanting to rent out your house to someone or having to explain to anyone why you didn't rent to them. As long as you are not discriminating based on Race, Religion, or Gender , etc.  But if someone gives you a red flag is because obviously there is something out of the normal with the applicant.  I don't think there is nothing illegal if you hold on to rent your house until someone fits what you are looking for.
you certainly have to have a criteria and they have to meet the requirements. But if something doesn't make sense or a red flags comes up, there is nothing illegal to pass up on the applicant. Only someone who has gone through a real bad renter situation will understand that.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 26, 2015, 04:23:15 PM
As long as you are not discriminating based on Race, Religion, or Gender , etc.

They can claim that you are though.  If they are (race/religion/gender/etc.) X, and you don't rent to them, and they claim discrimination, how do you prove it wasn't?

By having written criteria and not deviating.

Saying "I had a bad gut feeling about them" won't cut it, because the court's going to say "How do we know it wasn't their (race/religion/gender/etc.) that gave you that bad feeling?"

It's fine that you've never had an issue.  As I said, the chance that you will is rare.  You can even discriminate and very likely get away with it.  But (assuming you aren't discriminating), it's not worth the small risk to go on "gut feels" versus written criteria.

YMMV, obviously.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Another Reader on March 26, 2015, 04:36:49 PM
California is actually stricter than most jurisdictions.  Any time standards are not applied consistently, it's easier to conclude you rejected a tenant for a prohibited reason based on "gut feel."  A good tenant lawyer is going to get your records and depose you on your reasons for all your tenant rejections, in hopes of showing a pattern of applying inconsistent tenant standards.  If you have a list of criteria and can show why each candidate was rejected based on that list, it's a lot harder to demonstrate a pattern of inconsistency.  You also can't make exceptions to standards based on "gut feel."  The argument will be made that you discriminated.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 04:50:41 PM
I think anybody can claim anything but the burden of proof is on them not and the landlord. They have to have some proof why you illegally did not rent to them.
I guess I should have mentioned that when ever you pass on someone because of a red flag or something you obviously don't want to tell them that or give them anything in writing. I do think the renting laws for the most part are Bull S***. If there is a reason why I would sell my properties would be because of the rental laws.
I should add that I never meant to say to act on gut feeling alone. But I do believe that if something doesn't feel right, then that is something to think about. I learned by experience. Every landlord that I have ever came across has said the same thing, to trust your gut feeling if something does not seem right.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Doulos on March 26, 2015, 04:57:13 PM
You could go all Mustachian with your criteria and base the acceptance on ...
- Save % vs Income.
  - Example; Average is something terribly low like 5%.   You could require at least 10%, not great but in the right direction.
- Low Per person Yearly Expenses.
- Puts money into Tax Advantaged accounts regularly.
- Owns a used car, Bike, or better yet, walks.

There are all kinds of Mustachian ways to measure.
Or you could just have regular stuff like above and a clause that makes an exception in your normal criteria for someone that proves Mustachian.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 26, 2015, 05:02:56 PM
I think anybody can claim anything but the burden of proof is on them not and the landlord.

That'd be nice, but I don't think so.  If they sue you, and you're in court, and they say you discriminated against them because XYZ, you'd better have some documented proof as to why you didn't accept them.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 05:05:29 PM
California is actually stricter than most jurisdictions.  Any time standards are not applied consistently, it's easier to conclude you rejected a tenant for a prohibited reason based on "gut feel."  A good tenant lawyer is going to get your records and depose you on your reasons for all your tenant rejections, in hopes of showing a pattern of applying inconsistent tenant standards.  If you have a list of criteria and can show why each candidate was rejected based on that list, it's a lot harder to demonstrate a pattern of inconsistency.  You also can't make exceptions to standards based on "gut feel."  The argument will be made that you discriminated.
I guess we can discuss what the law says and what reality is. Most landlords do not follow the letter of the law when it comes to rentals. I know many different landlords around here and I have never heard of anyone getting fined or sued. But I guess that does not mean It cant happen. If you are dumb enough to state that you did not rent to someone because of a bad feeling then you have no business being a landlord. You will get in trouble guaranteed.

My guess is that anyone who has experience with being a landlord will say that they would not rent to someone who they don't feel comfortable with regardless if they meet their criteria. I am sure they don't just rent to the first applicant that is "qualified" just because they are following the rental laws. Like I said, the rental laws say one thing, but reality is another thing. At the end of the day the landlord is the person responsible if you have major losses because someone destroyed your house. You are not going to be able to go to the State and say you want a reimbursement for damages because you were following the rental laws.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Doulos on March 26, 2015, 05:08:57 PM
The first time I rented out my house I rushed to get a renter. I checked his credit and income were great, but something was off. I could not put my finger on why something felt wrong with this guy. He was single and said that he was only going to bring his girlfriend. To make a long story short, after renting to him I found out that he was only doing a favor for his mistress to get her a house. The mistress brought in her mom, kids, and boyfriend. It was a big mess and I could not even sleep from the stress. Finally after a year I got them out of there but my house was a mess.

So my advice, only rent it out with someone who you feel really really comfortable. Check the credit and income really good. If you see any red flags just pass on it. who cares how long it sits, its not worth it to rush. Thank God the second renter has been awesome and I felt from the beginning that he gave me a good vibe.

As for this kind of thing... Are you not able to evict immediately based on the tenant lying about their application?
You agree to rent to a single person with no 2nd tenant in that space.
That is binding right?
A visiting girlfriend is not the same thing as allowing a girlfriend's entire family to move in.

Although I myself cannot really understand the difference between 1 tenant or many as long as they pay the rent. 
Why would the tenant's marital status, number of children, etc matter?
It that even a legal thing you can criteria based on?
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Doulos on March 26, 2015, 05:12:58 PM
Also I missed...
Good job on your first rental place!
(http://www.spjeff.com/wp-content/ftp_uploads/Get-Design-View-back-on-SharePoint-2013-_C373/homer-computer-woohoo.jpg)

I watch a lot of Income Property with my Wife... So if you do too...
"Checks to the Bank!"
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 05:22:38 PM
I think anybody can claim anything but the burden of proof is on them not and the landlord.

That'd be nice, but I don't think so.  If they sue you, and you're in court, and they say you discriminated against them because XYZ, you'd better have some documented proof as to why you didn't accept them.
like I said, anyone can say anything and sue anyone for anything. And yes, you have to go to court if someone sues you. But that does not mean the burden is on the landlord. The plantiff has to have proof on why you "discriminated". Unless you have been in this type of court proceedings then maybe you know what you are talking about. But I don't think that's how it works. I am sure the landlords have to show why they did not rent tot hem but the actual burden to prove discrimination is on the person making the claim
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: SuperSecretName on March 26, 2015, 05:38:22 PM
Don't rush to rent to people with a low credit score.  I got burned on that once, and only lost one months rent when they stopped paying at the end.  It could have been A TON worse for me.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 05:40:07 PM
The first time I rented out my house I rushed to get a renter. I checked his credit and income were great, but something was off. I could not put my finger on why something felt wrong with this guy. He was single and said that he was only going to bring his girlfriend. To make a long story short, after renting to him I found out that he was only doing a favor for his mistress to get her a house. The mistress brought in her mom, kids, and boyfriend. It was a big mess and I could not even sleep from the stress. Finally after a year I got them out of there but my house was a mess.

So my advice, only rent it out with someone who you feel really really comfortable. Check the credit and income really good. If you see any red flags just pass on it. who cares how long it sits, its not worth it to rush. Thank God the second renter has been awesome and I felt from the beginning that he gave me a good vibe.
Yes, you can evict them but I wanted to wait and give them a chance. The true reason why told them to leave is because every time I would go to the house I would see a lot of damage just about every month. My was getting destroyed literally every month. After I told them over and over about things that were not acceptable, I decided that it was not working out and I was getting really stressed to see so much damage in such little time.
Also eviction is the last resort. It is a true pain in the A** I heard. The tenants can stay in your property as the eviction process is going and they don't have to pay. The smartest thing is to ask them to leave nicely and just wait until they do as long as they keep paying you. I would have done the eviction process if they would have stopped paying but that was not the case.
It makes a difference how many people rent out a house. The more people, the more wear and tear on the house. The amount of people that ended up in my house was not the big issue, but the fact that they destroyed it was.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Another Reader on March 26, 2015, 05:52:53 PM
Bizzy:

If you have not done so, join your local landlord association and one or more real estate investors associations.  If you have the opportunity, attend a seminar or class on landlord-tenant law in California.  You will likely find it eye-opening and well worth the cost.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 06:40:12 PM
Bizzy:

If you have not done so, join your local landlord association and one or more real estate investors associations.  If you have the opportunity, attend a seminar or class on landlord-tenant law in California.  You will likely find it eye-opening and well worth the cost.
Yes, It probably is worth it. I have downloaded and read most of the CA rental laws and it was an eye-opener.
 
But experience is something that you cannot learn in a classroom. I learned the hard way.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Another Reader on March 26, 2015, 06:45:02 PM
Case law is as important as the written law here.  Standards of proof are not always determined by what is written in the code.  Property management classes or seminars where examples are given may also be useful to you.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 26, 2015, 08:02:40 PM
Case law is as important than the written law here.  Standards of proof are not always determined by what is written in the code.  Property management classes or seminars where examples are given may also be useful to you.

+1.

I actually agree with you Bizzy:
Quote
I guess we can discuss what the law says and what reality is. Most landlords do not follow the letter of the law when it comes to rentals.

You're right. The majority don't.

But the smart ones do.

It isn't worth the risk.

Use written guidelines, and stick with them.  The fair housing act has teeth.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 08:48:32 PM
Quote
I actually agree with you Bizzy:
Quote
I guess we can discuss what the law says and what reality is. Most landlords do not follow the letter of the law when it comes to rentals.

You're right. The majority don't.

But the smart ones do.

It isn't worth the risk.

Use written guidelines, and stick with them.  The fair housing act has teeth.

LOL, sorry bro but I disagree. I believe the smart ones look for ways to make it work. And following the housing rules to the letter of the law don't give landlords a good chance in making it profitable.

I am curious Arebeslpy, do you have properties that you rent out?

[Mod Note: Quote Tags fixed.]
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 26, 2015, 08:50:40 PM
LOL, sorry bro but I disagree. I believe the smart ones look for ways to make it work. And following the housing rules to the letter of the law don't give landlords a good chance in making it profitable.

Following the law doesn't affect my profitability.

IMO, and IME, having written criteria that people meet and become my tenants or don't meet and don't helps my profitability much more than a "gut feel" would.

And once you move past the "LOL sorry bro" phase of your life you might consider listening to wise people like Another Reader, who has been in the business decades, and gives great advice (as above).

I am curious Arebeslpy, do you have properties that you rent out?

I do.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 09:04:56 PM

I am curious Arebeslpy, do you have properties that you rent out?

I do.
[/quote]
More power to you if its working for you. I hope you are never in a situation where your house gets destroyed because the rental law says you have to rent to any "qualified" renter.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 09:18:43 PM
And once you move past the "LOL sorry bro" phase of your life you might consider listening to wise people like Another Reader, who has been in the business decades, and gives great advice (as above).

I am 38 and I own 3 homes. I am at the best phase of my life. That is healthy and thanking God to be alive everyday. I could care less if I have 3 homes or none as long as I am alive and healthy. So I guess that being "LOL sorry bro" phase of my life has been good so far.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 26, 2015, 09:27:15 PM
More power to you if its working for you. I hope you are never in a situation where your house gets destroyed because the rental law says you have to rent to any "qualified" renter.

You can't control everything, but if they pass my written criteria, I'm fairly confident they'll be a good renter.

Quote
And once you move past the "LOL sorry bro" phase of your life you might consider listening to wise people like Another Reader, who has been in the business decades, and gives great advice (as above).

I am 38 and I own 3 homes. I am at the best phase of my life. That is healthy and thanking God to be alive everyday. I could care less if I have 3 homes or none as long as I am alive and healthy. So I guess that being "LOL sorry bro" phase of my life has been good so far.

Alright then.  Healthy and happy is all we can ask.  Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Another Reader on March 26, 2015, 09:35:16 PM
Bizzy:

Your house was destroyed because you did not vet your tenant properly.  Had you looked at his history, you would have found he lived somewhere else, in a house he probably owned, probably with his wife.  With this knowledge, and without landlord references, you could have turned him down.  Once the other people moved in, you could have evicted them, as long as you had a solid lease.

If you set your standards high enough and do due diligence on your applicants, you won't generally have these problems.  When you do have a problem, you generally will have a reason to evict some or all of the residents. 

Between us, I believe Arebelspy and I own over 40 properties and have around 30 years of rental experience.  Go read the No Nonsense Landlord blog.  He has over 20 units and a lot of years in the business as well.  Same advice on fair housing from him.  You can choose to get your education cheaply from those who have been through all of this, or you can learn from your mistakes, which can be quite expensive.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 26, 2015, 09:53:02 PM
Bizzy:

Your house was destroyed because you did not vet your tenant properly.  Had you looked at his history, you would have found he lived somewhere else, in a house he probably owned, probably with his wife.  With this knowledge, and without landlord references, you could have turned him down.  Once the other people moved in, you could have evicted them, as long as you had a solid lease.

If you set your standards high enough and do due diligence on your applicants, you won't generally have these problems.  When you do have a problem, you generally will have a reason to evict some or all of the residents. 

Between us, I believe Arebelspy and I own over 40 properties and have around 30 years of rental experience.  Go read the No Nonsense Landlord blog.  He has over 20 units and a lot of years in the business as well.  Same advice on fair housing from him.  You can choose to get your education cheaply from those who have been through all of this, or you can learn from your mistakes, which can be quite expensive.
I can agree. I could have done a better job in screening my tenant.
Congrats on your success and I appreciate your advice.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Mrkineticz on March 27, 2015, 12:07:21 AM
Congrats on the first rental.. Its usually the hardest... I had the same issues when I got my first rental.  I have 2 rentals now and going on my 3rd this year.From what I know Discriminating tennants always happens. I have a list of preferences on what type of people I would like to rent to.First get solid proof and criteria from possible tenants. then get a feel of that person. here is a list of things i ask for always!

-proof of income ( has to be 3x amount of rent)
-recent credit score 1-2 months old (a person can get their credit score free each year)
-rent history (2-3 years of history with minimal late payment history) (no rent history is a red flag)
-reason for moving
-amount of debt (a bit personal but if im renting this home I want to make sure you can pay for it)( this can be seen in the credit score)
-any pets ? ( i dont allow pets but you can ask for a non refundable pet deposit 200-400 dollars )
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 27, 2015, 08:18:02 AM
-recent credit score 1-2 months old (a person can get their credit score free each year)

I always insist on running it myself.

Any fresh inquiries and debt taken on will show, but also then you can make sure it's not faked/photoshopped, and see criminal history, and then you know it's actually them.

YMMV, of course.  :)
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Poorman on March 27, 2015, 02:09:19 PM
And once you move past the "LOL sorry bro" phase of your life you might consider listening to wise people like Another Reader, who has been in the business decades, and gives great advice (as above).

I am 38 and I own 3 homes. I am at the best phase of my life. That is healthy and thanking God to be alive everyday. I could care less if I have 3 homes or none as long as I am alive and healthy. So I guess that being "LOL sorry bro" phase of my life has been good so far.

I remember arelbspy insulted me for using the word "bro" when I first joined this forum also.  He seems to have a real hang up there.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 27, 2015, 02:45:28 PM
And once you move past the "LOL sorry bro" phase of your life you might consider listening to wise people like Another Reader, who has been in the business decades, and gives great advice (as above).

I am 38 and I own 3 homes. I am at the best phase of my life. That is healthy and thanking God to be alive everyday. I could care less if I have 3 homes or none as long as I am alive and healthy. So I guess that being "LOL sorry bro" phase of my life has been good so far.

I remember arelbspy insulted me for using the word "bro" when I first joined this forum also.  He seems to have a real hang up there.

Yup.  When we're discussing legal matters and someone responds with "LOL sorry bro" I have a hard time taking them seriously. 

You can be insulted at me noting it, or not, if you're comfortable with it.

/shrug


EDIT: Just looked up my response to you, since I don't recall this at all.  Apparently I said (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/any-ideas-on-how-to-bet-against-the-canadian-housing-market/msg200017/#msg200017): "Heh.  "Bro."  That's not one we've had much on the forums.  Thanks for the laugh."  -- As I did in this thread, I simply noted the use.  That time it apparently amused me.  And then apparently you chose to take it as an insult (and still remember it now, well over a year later.  Wow).  That's your choice.  But yes, it's something that sticks out to me when someone uses that phrase that isn't a 19 year old frat kid.  :)
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Poorman on March 27, 2015, 03:21:22 PM
How I choose to take it has no bearing on your choice of behavior.  It is what it is.  The only reason I remember it is because that was one of the first threads I commented on and thought your behavior rather strange for a moderator.  Despite your unwelcoming comments I decided to keep participating and found some good information and people on these forums.  I would hate for somebody new like bizzy, or anybody else, to be turned off by a petty insult from you.  That's the reason I brought it up.

P.S. Unless you're a lawyer by trade, you should be careful about handing out legal advice in an open forum like this.  That's my non-legal advice to you.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 27, 2015, 04:21:53 PM
Alright then.  Have a nice day poorman.  :)

One ought never take legal advice from random strangers on the Internet.  None of the above is legal advice.  I'd still recommend one follow AR's advice and take some classes to educate yourself around the issues.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Doulos on March 27, 2015, 05:29:55 PM
ARS, Take a screen shot right now!
Your post count is 13337 extra Leet!

And you do come across insulting in a lot of your posts, for your information, since it is being discussed here.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 27, 2015, 06:14:09 PM
ARS, Take a screen shot right now!
Your post count is 13337 extra Leet!

Hah, nice, good catch!  :D

And you do come across insulting in a lot of your posts, for your information, since it is being discussed here.

I am aware.  Well usually condescending, rather than directly insulting.  Not usually, actually, but rarely, but when someone is offended, that's typically what it is.

It's not ideal, but it is something I'm aware of.  Thanks for the note.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 27, 2015, 07:24:58 PM
And once you move past the "LOL sorry bro" phase of your life you might consider listening to wise people like Another Reader, who has been in the business decades, and gives great advice (as above).

I am 38 and I own 3 homes. I am at the best phase of my life. That is healthy and thanking God to be alive everyday. I could care less if I have 3 homes or none as long as I am alive and healthy. So I guess that being "LOL sorry bro" phase of my life has been good so far.

I remember arelbspy insulted me for using the word "bro" when I first joined this forum also.  He seems to have a real hang up there.

Yup.  When we're discussing legal matters and someone responds with "LOL sorry bro" I have a hard time taking them seriously. 

You can be insulted at me noting it, or not, if you're comfortable with it.

Arebelspy is so perfect that if he hear someone using "LOL sorry bro" he does not take them seriously? Are you kidding?
So you are so perfect that you want people to sound so serious in here? Let me guess, you have so many properties and your life is so great that you think you are better then people and you can talk down on them because you are so experienced in real state. Good job you are doing here "Bro"

Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 27, 2015, 07:28:50 PM
No, I have plenty of flaws.

But I'm also straightforward and tell it how it is, and yes, the fact of the matter is that if someone says "LOL sorry bro" I have trouble taking them seriously, yes.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 27, 2015, 07:43:00 PM
No, I have plenty of flaws.

But I'm also straightforward and tell it how it is, and yes, the fact of the matter is that if someone says "LOL sorry bro" I have trouble taking them seriously, yes.
That says a lot about your character. We are having a discussion and exchanging advice and ideas. This is not a court of law where someone's life is on the line.
You clearly sound like you think you are better then most people here by making those comments.
Being straightforward has nothing to do by taking people seriously just because they say "Bro"
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Megma on March 27, 2015, 07:58:05 PM
LOL, sorry bro but I disagree. I believe the smart ones look for ways to make it work. And following the housing rules to the letter of the law don't give landlords a good chance in making it profitable.

Following the law doesn't affect my profitability.

IMO, and IME, having written criteria that people meet and become my tenants or don't meet and don't helps my profitability much more than a "gut feel" would.

And once you move past the "LOL sorry bro" phase of your life you might consider listening to wise people like Another Reader, who has been in the business decades, and gives great advice (as above).

I am curious Arebeslpy, do you have properties that you rent out?

I do.


I'm curious about this whole discussion, if you don't state to provide "fair housing" doesn't that lower your burden? Maybe not but I'd think so...curious since I'm planning to get into renting I the coming years.

Also, again curious, if you were sued presumably you had lots of applicants who were qualified based on your written criteria, maybe you just picked one you liked more for x reason or no real reason at all? Sort of like a job interview. Ok or not ok?
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Doulos on March 27, 2015, 08:09:41 PM
Well in theory you could have in writing your decision method for selection among multiple acceptable tenants too.
-  1st come 1st served averts this issue.

You would probably need A set criteria to decide how long you wait to make the decision.
for example. 
- 1 week from posting. 
- or 1 week after 1st application received.

Any crazy plan you have in there would have to be considered consistent.
- Put all names on dart board.  Throw dart to select.
- Print out all applicants.  Throw them down stairs.  Whichever lands farthest wins.
- Put names in a hat.
- Poker night held at rental.  Winner gets it.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 27, 2015, 08:10:18 PM
I'm curious about this whole discussion, if you don't state to provide "fair housing" doesn't that lower your burden? Maybe not but I'd think so...curious since I'm planning to get into renting I the coming years.

No.  Every landlord must comply with the fair housing regulations.

Just like every restaurant must comply with the Civil Rights Act.

Also, again curious, if you were sued presumably you had lots of applicants who were qualified based on your written criteria, maybe you just picked one you liked more for x reason or no real reason at all? Sort of like a job interview. Ok or not ok?

Yeah, I mean, plenty of people do it, but if they sue and in discovery find that a bunch of, say, a particular race applied and met your criteria but you rented to a person of another race, they claim discrimination.

The standard and best way to do it, IMO, and from all the legal advice I've read and gotten, is to have standard criteria, take applications in, and process them first in and first out.  First candidate to meet your criteria, you rent to.

You don't look for a "better" one, because you get into that problem area where then you have to show you didn't discriminate.

Just set your standards high and rent to people who meet them.  It's not that hard, but when you start messing around with not following a documented procedure, that's when it's a lot tougher to show you did things right.  :)
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Another Reader on March 27, 2015, 08:11:34 PM
The law requires you to adhere to the fair housing standards.  The easiest way to defend against a discrimination complaint is to show a set of legally acceptable tenant requirements and that you accepted the first applicant that met those requirements.  There can be no discrimination complaint if you do that.  If you collect applications, you will have to overcome the suspicion that you applied a legally impermissible standard to pick the "best" applicant. 

I suggest that everyone that owns or intends to own rentals join their local landlord and real estate investors associations.  Take the classes or seminars they offer on this subject.  Take the property management class in the real estate license series if that's available to you.  Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable excuse and the fines and legal fees can be very expensive.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 27, 2015, 10:16:45 PM
LOL, sorry bro but I disagree. I believe the smart ones look for ways to make it work. And following the housing rules to the letter of the law don't give landlords a good chance in making it profitable.

Following the law doesn't affect my profitability.

IMO, and IME, having written criteria that people meet and become my tenants or don't meet and don't helps my profitability much more than a "gut feel" would.

And once you move past the "LOL sorry bro" phase of your life you might consider listening to wise people like Another Reader, who has been in the business decades, and gives great advice (as above).

I am curious Arebeslpy, do you have properties that you rent out?

I do.


I'm curious about this whole discussion, if you don't state to provide "fair housing" doesn't that lower your burden? Maybe not but I'd think so...curious since I'm planning to get into renting I the coming years.

Also, again curious, if you were sued presumably you had lots of applicants who were qualified based on your written criteria, maybe you just picked one you liked more for x reason or no real reason at all? Sort of like a job interview. Ok or not ok?
As I mentioned earlier in the discussion. We can talk about what the rental law says and what the reality is. Most small time property owners are looking for a specific type of renter to trust their expensive investment. Maybe the administrators here can shine light on what to do when you have many "qualified" applicants and you can only choose one? How do you explain in court that you didn't discriminate against the rest of the applicants.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: iamlindoro on March 27, 2015, 10:21:05 PM
As I mentioned earlier in the discussion. We can talk about what the rental law says and what the reality is. Most small time property owners are looking for a specific type of renter to trust their expensive investment. Maybe the administrators here can shine light on what to do when you have many "qualified" applicants and you can only choose one? How do you explain in court that you didn't discriminate against the rest of the applicants.

You take the first one to arrive chronologically.  It's the only defensible position.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 27, 2015, 10:40:12 PM
I'm curious about this whole discussion, if you don't state to provide "fair housing" doesn't that lower your burden? Maybe not but I'd think so...curious since I'm planning to get into renting I the coming years.

No.  Every landlord must comply with the fair housing regulations.

Just like every restaurant must comply with the Civil Rights Act.

Also, again curious, if you were sued presumably you had lots of applicants who were qualified based on your written criteria, maybe you just picked one you liked more for x reason or no real reason at all? Sort of like a job interview. Ok or not ok?

Yeah, I mean, plenty of people do it, but if they sue and in discovery find that a bunch of, say, a particular race applied and met your criteria but you rented to a person of another race, they claim discrimination.

The standard and best way to do it, IMO, and from all the legal advice I've read and gotten, is to have standard criteria, take applications in, and process them first in and first out.  First candidate to meet your criteria, you rent to.

You don't look for a "better" one, because you get into that problem area where then you have to show you didn't discriminate.

Just set your standards high and rent to people who meet them.  It's not that hard, but when you start messing around with not following a documented procedure, that's when it's a lot tougher to show you did things right.  :)

Everyone has to comply with all the tax laws as well. According to Arebelspy he does not take chances and he follows the law to the letter. So in fact he is such a great American that he does not cut any corners and reports every expense and income to the cent. Right bro?
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 27, 2015, 11:18:28 PM
As I mentioned earlier in the discussion. We can talk about what the rental law says and what the reality is.

Right.  And I prefer to follow the law.

Maybe the administrators here can shine light on what to do when you have many "qualified" applicants and you can only choose one? How do you explain in court that you didn't discriminate against the rest of the applicants.

You process them in on a first-come, first-serve basis.  The first one meeting your criteria you rent to.

Everyone has to comply with all the tax laws as well. According to Arebelspy he does not take chances and he follows the law to the letter. So in fact he is such a great American that he does not cut any corners and reports every expense and income to the cent. Right bro?

I don't know that I'd call myself a "great American" - I tend to be highly critical of our government, actually.  But you are correct in that I do report all of my income and expenses.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 27, 2015, 11:34:35 PM
How I choose to take it has no bearing on your choice of behavior.  It is what it is.  The only reason I remember it is because that was one of the first threads I commented on and thought your behavior rather strange for a moderator.  Despite your unwelcoming comments I decided to keep participating and found some good information and people on these forums.  I would hate for somebody new like bizzy, or anybody else, to be turned off by a petty insult from you.  That's the reason I brought it up.

P.S. Unless you're a lawyer by trade, you should be careful about handing out legal advice in an open forum like this.  That's my non-legal advice to you.  Good luck.
I agree Poorman. I also thought that arebelspy has a weird behavior for being an administrator here. One thing is to give advice and another is to say nonsense about someone's phase in life as if he was so great. This is not the first time I deal with a person like him that thinks he is better then everyone because he is an "administrator." But hopefully he doesn't turn off other people here with his weird and offensive comments that have nothing to do with the discussion.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 27, 2015, 11:56:57 PM
MOD NOTE: Please try to stay on topic.  If you'd like to start a complaint thread about arebelspy, that should go in the Off Topic forum.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on March 28, 2015, 12:00:26 AM
As I mentioned earlier in the discussion. We can talk about what the rental law says and what the reality is.

Right.  And I prefer to follow the law.

Maybe the administrators here can shine light on what to do when you have many "qualified" applicants and you can only choose one? How do you explain in court that you didn't discriminate against the rest of the applicants.

You process them in on a first-come, first-serve basis.  The first one meeting your criteria you rent to.

Everyone has to comply with all the tax laws as well. According to Arebelspy he does not take chances and he follows the law to the letter. So in fact he is such a great American that he does not cut any corners and reports every expense and income to the cent. Right bro?

I don't know that I'd call myself a "great American" - I tend to be highly critical of our government, actually.  But you are correct in that I do report all of my income and expenses.
So you follow the rental laws perfectly, never discriminate anyone for any reason, and you do your taxes accurately to the cent? Good for you. You are perfect in every way! I can see now why you make your offensive comments and think you can look down on most of the people here.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 28, 2015, 12:10:14 AM
Yes, I try to follow the laws.  It is weird to me that this is a surprise to you, or something to mock.

Send me a PM if you'd like to engage further bizzy.  I don't see a need to clutter up this thread anymore.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: accolay on March 28, 2015, 04:30:23 AM
Congratulations! I feel your excitement as I am also looking forward to purchasing a rental soon.

Quote
Oh, and what about taxes? How do I deal with that now? Do I need a business name and incorporate or what? Insurance?

This is something I'd like to hear more about too, especially the federal tax aspect. Are taxes a wash with any and all deductions? I've also read that since you're now a landlord and running a business, this apparently could open you up for a higher change of being audited, so it seems that keeping honest and good records would be a good idea. Can anyone else chime in on this? Concerning insurance, from what I've been researching, the insurance would be a rental insurance policy, and it seems many landlords have an umbrella liability insurance policy. Is this what more experienced landlords are doing?

As far as the rest of the hubbub in this thread: I took a tenant/landlord law seminar and the speaker, a tenant lawyer, said that the biggest thing he would be afraid of as a landlord would be discrimination. Everything I've read and researched echos this, as well as keeping a clear list of rental criteria and sticking to it, having a solid, lawyer-vetted lease, and maintaining your property. The devil's in the details.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: arebelspy on March 28, 2015, 08:41:06 AM
Quote
Oh, and what about taxes? How do I deal with that now? Do I need a business name and incorporate or what? Insurance?

This is something I'd like to hear more about too, especially the federal tax aspect. Are taxes a wash with any and all deductions?

It very much depends on your tax situation, the property itself, etc.  With some properties that are very expensive and just above break-even the depreciation will let you show a paper loss and can actually help shelter some of your ordinary W2 income as well.  (Of course, it will all be recaptured at some point, besides w/ probate.)  With a cheaper property that cash flows a lot, the depreciation barely covers any of the property's profits itself, so you'll be paying taxes.

You can, of course, write off expenses related to it, but you wouldn't have incurred those otherwise, so I don't see that as a huge "benefit," just getting back the cost of doing business in most cases.

Check with your accountant to see how a particular property will affect your tax situation, it's a bit too broad to give a blanket one size fits all answer to.  :)

I've also read that since you're now a landlord and running a business, this apparently could open you up for a higher change of being audited, so it seems that keeping honest and good records would be a good idea. Can anyone else chime in on this?

I heard that initially as well, but I don't believe it's true, and have since heard subsequent statements from the IRS that they don't target due to that.  In a related example, it used to be the case that taking a home office deduction could raise your chance of an audit, but the IRS no longer raises a flag on that.  You definitely want to keep good records, however.  1) It never hurts, because you might be audited just like anyone else, but (more importantly, in my mind), 2) It forces you to treat it like a business.  Keeping track of what's profitable, and what isn't.  Keeping track of how it ought to be run, rather than letting things slide.  What's measured is managed, and all that.

Concerning insurance, from what I've been researching, the insurance would be a rental insurance policy, and it seems many landlords have an umbrella liability insurance policy. Is this what more experienced landlords are doing?

I do, personally.  A lawyer, and many of the seminars, will sell you on complex legal structures to protect your assets.  And again, talk to a lawyer, don't listen to some random on the internet for legal advice.  It will depend on your scenario.  But I do recommend the rental insurance policy (a good one) and an umbrella on top of it.

As far as the rest of the hubbub in this thread: I took a tenant/landlord law seminar and the speaker, a tenant lawyer, said that the biggest thing he would be afraid of as a landlord would be discrimination. Everything I've read and researched echos this, as well as keeping a clear list of rental criteria and sticking to it, having a solid, lawyer-vetted lease, and maintaining your property. The devil's in the details.

Yup, that is one thing many of us have had drilled into our head.  Thanks for the confirmation from your experience. 
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: WildHare on March 28, 2015, 02:56:28 PM
Congratulations. Your excitement comes through in your post.   I have several rental properties and my one piece of advice is to remember it is a business.  You need to educate yourself regarding the laws in your state.  Keep good records.  I take applications , read them, and also verify the information given.  I call references, prior landlords, etc. I may also drive by their last residence., if practical, At that point, if they can meet the income requirement and I have verified the info on the application, I run credit.  I do not take any deposit ' to hold the property' until I have a qualified applicant.
It is exciting when your house is ready and you have prospective tenants coming through.  Try not to get caught up in their personal stories or promises.  I can't count the number of people who have told me how perfect it is, and how much they want it, etc, and never even return the application.   Or the ones who lie through their teeth.   Or the ones who list their mother as a reference, and are shocked that she is the first person I call.
Get some good books, ask questions, follow the landlord tenant regulations, keep good records. You may  get a bad tenant somewhere along the line. The trick is to have all your ducks in a row and understand that it comes with the territory.

Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: zinethstache on March 28, 2015, 02:59:45 PM
I know most folks on this forum are DIYers. But if you truly aren't ready to manage tenants directly you COULD, find a reputable PM company to manage that part for you. DH and I own multiple rentals now and he is NOT, I repeat NOT a people person, and I still work my day job and run my own little side gigs. I was totally unfit for successfully dealing with tenant selection or day to day tenant wrangling. So, we have hired a PM. I solicited them at random starting in 2012 before we even bought the first property, I asked alot of questions and found 2 willing to play the game and answer my rookie questions. I am very happy with my PM choice. One thing they do is ALWAYS call previous landlord's and they REQUIRE all people older than 18 living in the house be checked in some capacity. Pets are a higher damage deposit but are allowed  (as a pet owner I can't see restricting so many potential good tenants). I will say this, they are much slower to rent than I see talked about on the various forums because they DO stick to their criteria and yes right now lots of folks don't pass the credit check. note they have loaded up four units for us in three years, threeof them were empty units from our purchase in which we rehabbed and then they found tenants, and only one was because someone left /fingers crossed they all stay a long, long time!

Every tenant passing all their criteria is brought to me and I do make the final call. I love that I have that layer of experience working for me and find it well worth the fee I pay for it. It is not for everyone, but do consider it.

And most the most important thing I have to say is CONGRATULATIONS, may you take many checks to the bank! Or better yet, have them ACH the funds to your account each month.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: Poorman on March 31, 2015, 12:13:49 PM
So here is the counterpoint to arelschleppy's legal advice...

Quote
I am always amazed at how often landlords, property managers, and real estate agents quote laws when they have no idea what the laws actually say! (Which is pretty pathetic, since some of us are actually required to take Fair Housing classes regularly!)

No, you absolutely DO NOT have to accept the first person who applies. You do however need to be ready to defend in court your reason for rejecting that person. If you are trying to decide between two qualified applicants, rate them! For instance, Zillow recently put out a free ebook which includes an Applicant Qualification Checklist that allows a landlord to score applicants based on income, credit, rental history, etc... Google "Zillow Lead Qualification Kit" and you'll find the ebook. This checklist is Appendix C.

Here is another interesting tidbit of information that is never discussed on these posts... Look at Section 803. [42 USC 3603] (b) - this paragraph outlines the EXEMPTIONS to the Fair Housing Act.

Basically, an owner (landlord) is exempt from the Fair Housing laws if they do not own more than 3 single-family rental units at one time and the rentals are being rented out without the services of a real estate licensee. Additionally, owner-occupied properties with no more than 4 units is also exempt.

What this means is that if you own 3 or fewer rental properties (either single-family homes, or individual apartments... don't get confused about what they are referring to as "single-family"!), or if you rent out rooms in your own occupied home, or if you own a building with 4 or fewer individual units and you live in one and rent out the others, you are exempt from Fair Housing.

What this exemption does is put a little bit of the decision-making and control back into the hands of small landlords with only a couple properties, and I think it's mostly a financial thing... For instance, as an example: You own one rental property. You are not making a fortune off that property, so you really cannot afford the expenses of vacancy, non-payment of rent, damages, etc... So, in that position, it may seem less risky to you to have a single person without kids (less wear & tear for you to be responsible for), or an older, more responsible and stable person (less turnover and risk of non-payment). If you owned several properties, it would be against Fair Housing and illegal to choose a tenant based on those preferences, but as a small landlord, it is NOT. However, NO ONE is exempt from discrimination based on race- keep that in mind! Also remember that this is the FEDERAL Fair Housing Act- each state, and even counties & municipalities, have their own laws. It's also important to be familiar with your local laws.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/renting/1251771-how-legally-choose-tenant-multiple-qualified-3.html#ixzz3VzE17Zst

So the part where arelbespy says they will be subject to big fines and jail time is absolute ignorance on his part.  If the original poster gets more than 3 rental SFR's, then yeah, develop a policy, but most mom & pop landlords with one or two units are not subject to the same rules as larger investors.

(Talk to your legal professional for specific advice.)

EDIT: Per babysteps' post, I changed the wording from 'units' to 'SFRs'.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: babysteps on March 31, 2015, 12:59:22 PM
...  If the original poster gets more than 3 rental units, then yeah, develop a policy, but most mom & pop landlords with one or two units are not subject to the same rules as larger investors.

(Talk to your legal professional for specific advice.)

Completely agree, always seek specialized local legal advice!

Ideally, new real estate investors can balance fear-of-the-unknown with information from experienced investors (just ask, they'll be happy to tell you their war stories) and a trusted legal advisor or two.  Don't get stuck in analysis paralysis, but don't jump without looking, either :)

I am not a lawyer.  However, I would caution us all to be careful not to conflate #units and #properties.  The advice I have received is that for a multi-unit property to be exempt, it has to be either owner-occupied or relative-of-owner-occupied.  Even then you have to follow the advertising rules.  In my experience, most mom & pop landlords are not living in their investment properties, so would not be exempt.

Here are links to two states' websites (in part) explaining federal exemptions to the Fair Housing Law that may help clarify
Vermont is http://hrc.vermont.gov/Exemptions%20to%20Fair%20Housing%20Laws (http://hrc.vermont.gov/Exemptions%20to%20Fair%20Housing%20Laws)
Pennsylvania is http://www.equalhousing.org/fair-housing-topics/?tab=exemptions-to-the-fair-housing-act (http://www.equalhousing.org/fair-housing-topics/?tab=exemptions-to-the-fair-housing-act)
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: theoverlook on March 31, 2015, 01:20:08 PM
I realize I'm cluttering up Vitai Slade's thread, but I find the piling on to Arebelspy to be unseemly.  His responses were nothing but level headed and attempts to be helpful.  Responding with "lol sorry bro" was the start of the poor tone.  Maybe you don't see how that's inappropriate and dismissive - but it is.

Plus, please don't antagonize a forum mod, whose job is thankless, unending, and thoroughly needed.  The number of forums that end up useless to civil people far outnumber those that are helpful like this one.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: accolay on March 31, 2015, 01:37:03 PM
Absolutely. Consult a legal professional.

However, I think it's bad to throw out such psuedo-advice to disregard federal discrimination law because there is something about not having more than three units and apply to a personal business situation. The exemptions are very specific in only very specific circumstances. And if the federal fair housing laws somehow don't apply, then you'd better check with your state and local fair housing laws.

Here's my bolding of the exemptions from the Fair Housing Act: http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/hce/title8.php (http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/hce/title8.php)

Quote
(b)Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--


    (1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner: Provided,
That such private individual owner does not own more than three such single-family houses at any one time:
Provided further,
That in the case of the sale of any such single-family house by a private individual owner not residing in such house at the time of such sale or who was not the most recent resident of such house prior to such sale, the exemption granted by this subsection shall apply only with respect to one such sale within any twenty-four month period:
Provided further,
That such bona fide private individual owner does not own any interest in, nor is there owned or reserved on his behalf, under any express or voluntary agreement, title to or any right to all or a portion of the proceeds from the sale or rental of, more than three such single-family houses at any one time:
Provided further,
That after December 31, 1969, the sale or rental of any such single-family house shall be excepted from the application of this subchapter only if such house is sold or rented (A) without the use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings, or of any employee or agent of any such broker, agent, salesman, or person and (B) without the publication, posting or mailing, after notice, of any advertisement or written notice in violation of section 804(c) of this title; but nothing in this proviso shall prohibit the use of attorneys, escrow agents, abstractors, title companies, and other such professional assistance as necessary to perfect or transfer the title, or
    (2)rooms or units in dwellings containing living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by no more than four families living independently of each other, if the owner actually maintains and occupies one of such living quarters as his residence.

As it says on the MN Fair Housing Website FAQs for Housing Providers http://fairhousingmn.org/providers/faq/ (http://fairhousingmn.org/providers/faq/):
Quote
Assume that discrimination is illegal until you consult an expert.
Title: Re: Buying my first rental property. :3
Post by: bizzy on April 02, 2015, 09:03:51 PM
I realize I'm cluttering up Vitai Slade's thread, but I find the piling on to Arebelspy to be unseemly.  His responses were nothing but level headed and attempts to be helpful.  Responding with "lol sorry bro" was the start of the poor tone.  Maybe you don't see how that's inappropriate and dismissive - but it is.

Plus, please don't antagonize a forum mod, whose job is thankless, unending, and thoroughly needed.  The number of forums that end up useless to civil people far outnumber those that are helpful like this one.
Again, this is a forum to exchange ideas and advice. We are having simple discussion. So, If I used the term "lol sorry bro, I don't agree" it does not change anything to do with the context of the discussion. Arebelspy's offensive and unwelcoming statement about the phase in my life was not appropriate. And the fact that he stated that he does not take someone serious if they use the word "bro" is simply ridiculous. He is not my attorney nor a judge to act so serious in a forum discussion.
He has no right to make statements about what phase in my life I am in, as if he knows what's best in my situation. One thing is to know context of the law and another thing is to make comments about someone's personal life.

I also don't want to clutter up this thread but he turned this thread in another direction by making a personal insult. In fact, its clear that other members feel the same way.