Apartment/condo rentals and appliances

[jeromedawg]

Hey all,

Wanted to get your thoughts/preferences/feedback on renting apartments or condos that have appliances (namely the fridge and w/d) versus those that don't where you have to bring your own in. I'm sort of avoiding renting places that don't have everything as it seems troublesome bringing your own in. Unless it's a SFH or first floor unit where it's easy access to get those things in. What about second floor units? Would you guys opt to buy your own fridge and w/d set and pay to have it moved in (and deal with unloading and or moving it later when you move out) in this case as well?

We're looking at rentals and it seems all the unfurnished ones are going for $400-500 less than their counterparts that do have the appliances)... that's around $5000-$6000 less. Worth it?

[uniwelder]

There's a lot I would do to save 5k/year.  Seems a no-brainer to me.  Heck, even if its a hassle and you're on the second floor, hiring someone to help move it with you (or for you) seems well worth it.  When you leave, its possible you'll know who the next tenant will be and can probably sell it to them if you don't want to deal with taking the appliances back out.

edited to add--- I just keep thinking about this.  I realize you live in a HCOL area, while I'm LCOL, but 5k represents one month of my regular salary.  I can buy a fridge+washer+dryer used for less than 1k.  With the remaining money, it have to take more than 100 hours of hassle to make it worthwhile for me to want to pay for a place that had all that included.  Actually hassle would probably be less than 10, so that's the equivalent of more than two weeks worth of full time work wasted.

[cchrissyy]

I have bought appliances over the years both as an owner of a house that lacked them and for times when i was a renter and something broke so i ordered the new one and landlord reimbursed me.  I don't recall ever paying delivery or installation fees.  My last examples are under a year ago, a dishwasher and refrigerator from Costco. Oh and a costco freezer at a different house just a couple months ago. Definitely no cost to install it!

I would jump at the chance you are describing, since it saves so much money, and since you get to pick what you like, and since at the end of your tenancy you have the option to sell them on craigslist or to move them to your next place. They'll hold at least half the value so you're not really spending as much as it seems.

I think many renters don't have that kind of money when they just paid first+last+deposit but you do and that means you can get a good place with less competition! Or at least you have more places to choose from. Good luck!

[jeromedawg]

Thanks all.

Yea, sounds like I should just suck it up and buy the appliances if we move into another place. But even now we're struggling to decide whether we should do that. Right now we're paying around $2035 for our small 2/1 apartment. We have a 10x15 storage unit that we pay $192 for keeping all the stuff from our condo that we couldn't fit here... it's a lot of stuff. Price are subject to go up on the storage unit every 6 months; prior we were paying $175 for it as an introductory fee. At the time, our plan was to buy with 6-12months but with everything that has happened, I doubt that's going to happen. So we have a few choices... we can:

A) stay put and continue paying relatively close to what we're paying now with whatever increases that come our way, and keeping our storage unit.
B) move into something slightly bigger (extra bathroom and single port garage space) for a few hundred bucks more, moving some stuff out of storage but still needing to keep storage (this could mean downsizing the storage unit).
C) move into something a little bigger (3 bed 2 bath) for $600-700 more that we could get *most* of the stuff out of storage into but still need storage (maybe a smaller unit though or we just sell or drive it up to my in-laws')
D) move into something way bigger for probably at least $1500 more where we might be able to get everything out of storage into and have a 2-car garage to park our cars so they both aren't getting weather beaten being outside 100% of the time.

The cost of hiring movers to go from A to B (in addition to the time and stress of moving, both from apartment to apartment but also changing storage units, in general) seems like it may not be worth the trouble.
The places we checked out for B are also further away from our son's school, whereas right now the current place is pretty close. The mistake we made was just not moving into a slightly bigger place to begin with, but we were really anticipating not being in this situation for more than a year.

There is a real scarcity of apartments in the immediate area too, which doesn't help. Heck, there was an upstairs 3/2 or 3/3 condo unit with a single port garage that was renting for $3500 (and is already off-market) that would have probably rented for $3000-3200 max last year. At least around here, the market doesn't just suck for buyers. It sucks for renters too. The last two apartment complexes we visited even confirmed that 3 bed places are the scarcest to find, and so even the apartments are renting for $3000-3300 over a 2/2 which may run for $2500-2600 *max*. The best options, it seems, are with privately owned condos/townhomes (option C) but in that case you don't get the full garage. We've found two in these categories so far and one is a $2600 end-unit 3/1.5 townhome with a covered carport and uncovered space (this one is a little further from the school but still in a relatively central location). The other is a $2795 3/2 upstairs condo unit with one single port garage and one uncovered space (this one is a lot closer to the school area)

Edit: I should also mention that we're on the fence with trying for a 3rd. If we do and get pregnant, then moving into a 3 is a definite must

[cchrissyy]

I'd discard A and B

your current space is too small and you can afford to make yourself more comfortable. I mean that physically and in terms of the pressure that the housing situation puts you under. The market out there is really tough both buying and renting and i see why you picked the smaller thing at first but agree it turns out to be a mistake because the small apartment adds pressure to make your move. Rent something better to get rid of that pressure.

when I think "better" I don't just mean bigger i mean nice neighborhood and close to school. make life easy and comfortable in multiple respects.

i don't see the big deal about needing a garage or the value of paying for a storage unit. surely some of  those items aren't worth paying to store? i would really challenge yourself to get it down.  Sell the stuff that isn't worth paying monthly to keep. How much is junk? how much is tools or yard stuff or sports stuff you "might need" so you could sell them for a little on craigslist then re-buy the same items if you wanted later on. How much is furniture that isn't even in great shape or quality to justify how you are paying it's own monthly rent.

PS - professional movers aren't too expensive! i'm in the bay area and recently moved houses, it took like 4 hours and cost .... i don't even remember! the low hundreds? this detail is not worth bending over backwards to avoid.

[PMJL34]

Jerome,

You are thinking way too much. Not enough action/movement.

Buy a house if you want to be in the area long term (which it sounds like you do want to be). You said you can afford it. sounds stressful looking for a rental all the while knowing you are looking to purchase a house.

If you don't want to buy, then get a rental that fits your family's needs. Again, just go for the 3/2 with a big ass garage because you can afford it and your family will be so much happier.

You are way too smart to be wasting money on a silly storage unit. Please donate/throw everything away. You won't miss anything.

We only get one life. Go live it! 

[jeromedawg]

Jerome,

You are thinking way too much. Not enough action/movement.

Buy a house if you want to be in the area long term (which it sounds like you do want to be). You said you can afford it. sounds stressful looking for a rental all the while knowing you are looking to purchase a house.

If you don't want to buy, then get a rental that fits your family's needs. Again, just go for the 3/2 with a big ass garage because you can afford it and your family will be so much happier.

You are way too smart to be wasting money on a silly storage unit. Please donate/throw everything away. You won't miss anything.

We only get one life. Go live it!

I feel torn and conflicted because it seems I'm getting advice both ways.

On one hand it has been suggested numerous times that I shouldn't stress myself out dealing with this crazy market and the multiple bids/offers and removal of contingencies on top of having uncertainties with my job. I should hold off and wait for things to "stabilize" with my job as well as wait for the market to calm down. In short, I shouldn't be rushing to buy a home at the current time.

On the other hand, others are suggesting I have the money to straight out buy and that I should just go all in and get a place because it's not always all about the bottom line with maximizing finances... of course, I don't know if this means taking a loan or doing an all cash purchase, and if I should be offering aggressively above asking, and if so what the true 'ceiling' is for that factoring in high property taxes, hoas, repairs/maint, etc. If I went for the million+ home it would mean having to liquidate a signifant amount of my position that's currently in index funds as well (so next up would be cap gains etc). Likely I would still need to work and would feel pressured to do so vs tapping into my 401k and IRAs since COL factoring in prop taxes/hoas/maint would exceed the SWR on what I would have leftover

[draco44]

Only you can decide what's right for you, though I do feel you on the frustrations of either finding a good rental or a house to buy, especially in these weird times. Try to go easy on yourself and make whatever choice you choose from a position of consideration and calculated optimism rather than fear.

Since you are in California, for some international perspective, it's quite common in Germany to have to install your own entire kitchen when you rent, as in buy and install your own fridge, dishwasher, counters, maybe light fixtures, and yes, literally the kitchen sink. You can sometimes find apartments with a preinstalled or "fitted" kitchen (Einbauküche), but the rent tends to be higher for this pre-furnished "luxury," unless you buy the kitchen fixtures off from the previous tenant.  When I saw the title of this thread, that German practice was what I was reminded of. Many Germans like being able to choose their own kitchen style, but as it sounds like even the fridge thing is something you'd prefer not to deal with, remember that any real estate decision is a tradeoff and when things feel awful, try to be grateful for whichever hassles you don't have to deal with in your own situation.

[jeromedawg]

Only you can decide what's right for you, though I do feel you on the frustrations of either finding a good rental or a house to buy, especially in these weird times. Try to go easy on yourself and make whatever choice you choose from a position of consideration and calculated optimism rather than fear.

Since you are in California, for some international perspective, it's quite common in Germany to have to install your own entire kitchen when you rent, as in buy and install your own fridge, dishwasher, counters, maybe light fixtures, and yes, literally the kitchen sink. You can sometimes find apartments with a preinstalled or "fitted" kitchen (Einbauküche), but the rent tends to be higher for this pre-furnished "luxury," unless you buy the kitchen fixtures off from the previous tenant.  When I saw the title of this thread, that German practice was what I was reminded of. Many Germans like being able to choose their own kitchen style, but as it sounds like even the fridge thing is something you'd prefer not to deal with, remember that any real estate decision is a tradeoff and when things feel awful, try to be grateful for whichever hassles you don't have to deal with in your own situation.

Agreed. It's very conflicting deciding if we should suck it up and contend with other bidders resulting in overpaying for a home knowing that it will deplete the current stash in a major way vs just waiting it out and dealing with renting for a couple more years. I ended up finding a rental (it's a 4/2.5 but 1600sq ft so not ginormous) that would cost us $3300/mo. That's relatively unheard of in our parts as that's the standard rental cost of a 3/2 if anything. It's an SFH so has the 2-car garage but it also includes the fridge and w/d too. Either way, it seems like a better deal that comparable homes... why pay roughly the same for an 'equivalent' or smaller 3/2 right?

The only 'concern' is if the landlord will decide to pit us against other potential tenants and play bidding wars with her rental.

[jeromedawg]

I'd discard A and B

your current space is too small and you can afford to make yourself more comfortable. I mean that physically and in terms of the pressure that the housing situation puts you under. The market out there is really tough both buying and renting and i see why you picked the smaller thing at first but agree it turns out to be a mistake because the small apartment adds pressure to make your move. Rent something better to get rid of that pressure.

when I think "better" I don't just mean bigger i mean nice neighborhood and close to school. make life easy and comfortable in multiple respects.

i don't see the big deal about needing a garage or the value of paying for a storage unit. surely some of  those items aren't worth paying to store? i would really challenge yourself to get it down.  Sell the stuff that isn't worth paying monthly to keep. How much is junk? how much is tools or yard stuff or sports stuff you "might need" so you could sell them for a little on craigslist then re-buy the same items if you wanted later on. How much is furniture that isn't even in great shape or quality to justify how you are paying it's own monthly rent.

PS - professional movers aren't too expensive! i'm in the bay area and recently moved houses, it took like 4 hours and cost .... i don't even remember! the low hundreds? this detail is not worth bending over backwards to avoid.

The problem is that the rental market is so scarce. For us to move to a bigger place would mean moving further away from the school. The latest rental I found (the 4/3) is further away but still manageable (instead of 5 minutes driving it's more like 10-15 mins driving and by street). We're all over this general area so it's not a huge deal.

For storage, it's kind of too late - we had to move our stuff out ASAP and didn't want to hassle with selling it at that time (we were in a crunch to clear our last place out so it could be staged and listed so basically just had to throw stuff in boxes and move it out to the garage garage) so we had it all crammed into storage. It would be a *mountainous* task trying to go into the unit and sort through boxes and boxes of stuff: kids toys, clothes, grills, bikes, furniture, etc etc etc. My left wrist is screwed so I can't be lifting stuff and I'm not going to make my wife do it. The only way we're discarding of anything is by first moving it out of there and into a garage where we can sort through it and figure out what to get rid of.

Maybe we went with the wrong company but we spent $1100~ (it was like $140 per hour and we tipped) on our movers, which included loading most things up out of our garage then unloading most of it into storage and then dropping the rest of it off at our apartment. And they didn't do that great of a job stack/organizing stuff either - they scuffed up several pieces of furniture and weren't that careful. I figure it happens but this is the first big move we've ever made so we didn't know what to expect. I would imagine it's going to cost the same or more wherever we move next.

[Dicey]

I feel torn and conflicted...

As someone who is much older and well past FIRE, is it okay to observe that you seem this way on thread after thread after thread? You are literally fretting yourself over something different every week. This is not good for your health. Please consider finding ways to manage this stress. Seriously, your freaking life depends upon it.

[jeromedawg]

I feel torn and conflicted...

As someone who is much older and well past FIRE, is it okay to observe that you seem this way on thread after thread after thread? You are literally fretting yourself over something different every week. This is not good for your health. Please consider finding ways to manage this stress. Seriously, your freaking life depends upon it.

Fishing, walking and being around my wife and kids (most of the time) are my de-stressors. Right now, the biggest event in our lives has been this rental/living situation - it's foreign to us and has been a learning experience but is quite stressful. It's the first time we've made such a major move as a family, so there's a lot to take in, and I tend to vent here on the forums as a result. Once we finally settle down with either in a larger rental (for maybe 1-2 more years) and or we buy a place (even in the midst of the craziness), things will hopefully improve on that front. In the mean time, it's nice that we're close to a lake because I often find myself there.

[PMJL34]

Jerome,

Your potential rental seems like a good fit for your family. Hope you can get it and just relax for a few years.

However, I do believe you will continue to look at redfin even after moving into the rental and continue to stress yourself out.

You are a parent of an expanding family and want stability. I can relate to this.

I think it's important for everyone to realize that no one can predict the future. All this "1%" or "500k for a SFH" in LA are 10 years in the rear view mirror.  It doesn't presently exist nor is there any guarantee that it will exist in the future. It's too easy for myself and others on this forum who already have stability and a primary to say "don't worry, sit tight." But the reality is, if we were in your situation, we'd be clawing to get our foot in the market as well. Most of us on this forum haven't bought in a long time and would have advised others to not buy anywhere after 2014-now because "prices were too high." Look at that terrible advice we gave lol.

You are clearly a "homeowner" in terms of financial health, desires, and family situation. My advice has always been, purchase your primary when you are ready and when you can afford it. Stop thinking in terms of historical prices and just focus on what you can afford and go from there. Stop worrying about "am i over paying?" If you buy this year and the prices go down say 20% in the future... Would you care? I wouldn't as long as I could afford it and my family was enjoying it. 

EDIT: Now if you sincerely believe you can be at peace for a few years if you move into a large rental...Then do that! My advice is based on your post history.

Good luck my man!   

[cchrissyy]

I understand how hard it is out there! I spent most of the pandemic looking for a better rental house and there was nothing good enough. I eventually opened my search to buying. this is in the bay area, so that inventory was very low too, but in the end i found something i love and where i will be happy for the long run, and whose price and terms i can only describe as "do whatever it takes". lol.

seriously though, if you decide to buy, you will NOT be getting a deal. that's not the reality of the market this year. the decision to buy IS the decision to make the kind of offer that can win a bidding war.

And you will have to try multiple times.  If you can't stomach that don't bother looking and bidding. You will agonize over each house and waste everybody's time and not even get to move out of the apartment if you can't bring yourself to make a "whatever it takes" offer.

one thing that alarmed me in your past posts is the urgency/desperation to compromise - houses that you think are ugly, need work, are far from school, and/or next to a train or freeway. no no no. the point of buying your family's home isn't to check off the box "i got some random house" it is to buy a good one where you all comfortably stay for a long time! You must know enough about your needs and preferences to have actual requirements and not be considering every single house, no matter how far or how much disrepair. Remember location can't be fixed the way landscaping and kitchens can.

one more thought - these choices are all OK! when you get a counselor and work on that anxiety, i think a big repeated issue is you're overwhelmed analyzing what is the exact best plan and the fact is there are many fine paths here! it's ok! your choice does not have to be perfect, the way you go about it does not have to be perfect, you can afford to do any of these plans and your family can probably be happy in many situations!


here's a new approach - what does your wife want to do?

i'm sure she "just wants you to be happy" or "wants to do what's smart"

 but underneath those answers, what does she really think?

can you use that as your guiding light and let go of half of the ideas bouncing around?


TLDR
GOOD LUCK!  You have many good options. The anxiety is making this harder than it needs to be. Get help with that. Your family can be happy on whatever path you choose. it will be ok!

[jeromedawg]

Thanks @cchrissyy and @PMJL34 - I spoke with my wife and tried to find out. She kept going back to "if finances weren't a concern then I'd want to buy..." but she's not certain on location. She doesn't care so much about being very close to the school and says she's OK with the commute and dropping the kids off. I think, realistically, the furthest commute around here might be anywhere from 15-20 mins max. She's basically between Mission Viejo, Laguna Hills and Laguna Niguel but can't put her finger on which city she would actually want to live in. I guess she'd be okay with any of them but feels Laguna Niguel is more "unattainable" because it seems to be the most expensive of the three.
 
I think the other factor here is that I'm confused/lost in the understanding of how much we truly can afford... it seems this is slightly a relative number based on risk appetite. Obviously I'm factoring in PITI here but throwing in $500-600+ for repairs/maint which has an impact on things. I would be concerned if we bought a $1.2mm home with a large down payment, and I were to lose my job a couple years down the line... If I had to start drawing down at 4% SWR, I'm not convinced this would be enough to cover whatever the annual expenses are going to be with that kind of house. Outside of overpaying, *these* are the other factors that are really making me/us hesitant about buying a home.

I do agree that if we buy we should just get a place that's in good condition, doesn't need much work if any, and is in an ideal location. Basically buy the best home you can at the most you can afford...? And around here, the $1mm+ homes are really going to be *those* homes when it comes to turnkey + location (as far as being closest to their elementary school)

Side note: we will be viewing the 4/3 home later today. I spoke with the landlord on the phone and she seemed nice and enthusiastic. She wants long-term renters but for starters would be doing a 1yr lease with option to renew. She seemed very reasonable and down-to-earth about the house and wanting to find good tenants where the relationship is amicable. Anyway, we'll see how that goes.

[cchrissyy]

what i'm hearing is the weight of being a sole breadwinner with small kids at home.
it is normal to worry about what if you lose your job but don't be paralyzed by it.
buy what you can afford given the actual conditions right now not the worst what ifs you can imagine.

write a plan for if you lose your job. like this

I will probably not lose my job!
- in case I do, I will always keep an emergency fund of 6 months living expenses
- if i am laid off, i will likely get  __x__ months  income as severance
- if I am laid off, i will likely get  __x__ months of unemployment benefits
- if I do get laid off, I will look for a new job
- if all the above runs out, I can choose to sell stocks for living expenses or I can choose to sell the house and recover my down payment. I won't be rushed because it would be maybe a year later and none of the above has even begun to happen yet.

[jeromedawg]

what i'm hearing is the weight of being a sole breadwinner with small kids at home.
it is normal to worry about what if you lose your job but don't be paralyzed by it.
buy what you can afford given the actual conditions right now not the worst what ifs you can imagine.

write a plan for if you lose your job. like this

I will probably not lose my job!
- in case I do, I will always keep an emergency fund of 6 months living expenses
- if i am laid off, i will likely get  __x__ months  income as severance
- if I am laid off, i will likely get  __x__ months of unemployment benefits
- if I do get laid off, I will look for a new job
- if all the above runs out, I can choose to sell stocks for living expenses or I can choose to sell the house and recover my down payment. I won't be rushed because it would be maybe a year later and none of the above has even begun to happen yet.

Good ideas.

And yea, there's a bit of pressure being the sole breadwinner. That said, my wife is willing to take on more work too. But for myself, I feel like I need to start working on building up some side hustles and alternate income streams regardless.

As far as buying what you can afford, would it typically be based on buying the *mortgage* you can afford? So in my example, would a $1.2mm home only really be viable assuming I put somewhere in the ballpark of a $950k-$1mm downpayment (or more) given a $140k salary?

[cchrissyy]

i don't remember your personal numbers except that your income and expenses are in good shape and you have more in brokerage and retirement than most other posters. the fact that you saved enough that you *could* pay cash is very strong, which is not to say that you should do so.

when I say affordable, I mean in the typical sense that PITI is like 1/3 or 1/4 of your income so you don't feel too squeezed every month.  put down however much lets that happen.

good luck looking at the rental! I hope it's nice. There is no need to buy right here, right now, unless you really know exactly what you want.  I think you can afford it, I think your life stage is right, but I don't think you know what you want and so you can't write a contract to pay "whatever it takes" and sleep well at night, being so sure it was the right move that you don't even care if zillow says it rises or falls in the years that follow.

[jeromedawg]

i don't remember your personal numbers except that your income and expenses are in good shape and you have more in brokerage and retirement than most other posters. the fact that you saved enough that you *could* pay cash is very strong, which is not to say that you should do so.

when I say affordable, I mean in the typical sense that PITI is like 1/3 or 1/4 of your income so you don't feel too squeezed every month.  put down however much lets that happen.

good luck looking at the rental! I hope it's nice. There is no need to buy right here, right now, unless you really know exactly what you want.  I think you can afford it, I think your life stage is right, but I don't think you know what you want and so you can't write a contract to pay "whatever it takes" and sleep well at night, being so sure it was the right move that you don't even care if zillow says it rises or falls in the years that follow.

Ah ok. That helps a bit more with solidifying what we *should* probably do as far as PITI is concerned. Basically 25-30% of your income is where you want to land. I probably would factor in some forecasted maint/repairs into that too just to be even more conservative/safe.

I think the rental might be the WTG as you are saying. I got a really good vibe from the owner and it made me feel quite at ease. We almost went into what probably would have been a nightmare rental (with stingy landlords) last year and glad we backed out of that one. I think this current landlord/owner intentionally priced her unit low but is screening most of the non-serious ppl out by requiring them to apply via Zillow (and pay $30). The lower price, I think, is also to encourage longer term renters. Just from talking to her, there was a strong sense of pride of ownership which seems to be a good thing.

And yea, I think you're right about not knowing exactly what we want. We *really* like the area but the rage around all the homes has distorted our home purchase experience greatly. What we normally would be OK paying much less for because of condition is going for over asking in addition to everything else. When EVERYTHING is going for over asking, it's kind of hard to discern what actually makes sense to buy and to pass on in *some* cases.
It kind of sounds like what you might be suggesting is that the current market situation demands sort of a "I'm ALL in and I expect this house to live up to that standard" mindset: basically this should be the turnkey home of our dreams (or pretty darned close to it) because if we're overpaying *that's* what we ought to overpay for (versus overpaying for a home with half-a shoddy "improvements" that were done in attempts to make a quick buck or because it was a crap DIY job, etc)