Author Topic: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb  (Read 88381 times)

Wintergreen78

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #350 on: September 11, 2024, 12:59:22 PM »
Related to the firefighting stuff:  I see that California's Gov. Newsom has signed a law in 2020 allowing inmate firefighters to apply to become professional firefighters after they complete their sentence.  Seems like a good deal for everyone. 

I hope more states consider that option given that wildfires are expected to increase due to climate change.
I had read somewhere that a lot of inmate firefighters in Calif have a hard time finding firefighting jobs once released so not sure how that will work out but a step in the right direction.

As for the fires in SoCal (I'm currently in Orange County until Sunday) it getting bad. 3 huge fires with zero containment wiping out a lot of mountain towns and beautiful forests (Big Bear Lake is evacuating now) as well as many homes and businesses. The smoke is bad too.

Yes! I’m not clear on all the specifics, but I understood that Cal Fire and/or other firefighting agencies had rules in place that made it very hard to get hired if you had a criminal record. The bill cleared some of those obstacles.

Here’s an NPR article with more of the details: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912193742/california-bill-clears-path-for-ex-inmates-to-become-firefighters


spartana

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #351 on: September 12, 2024, 09:06:29 AM »
Related to the firefighting stuff:  I see that California's Gov. Newsom has signed a law in 2020 allowing inmate firefighters to apply to become professional firefighters after they complete their sentence.  Seems like a good deal for everyone. 

I hope more states consider that option given that wildfires are expected to increase due to climate change.
I had read somewhere that a lot of inmate firefighters in Calif have a hard time finding firefighting jobs once released so not sure how that will work out but a step in the right direction.

As for the fires in SoCal (I'm currently in Orange County until Sunday) it getting bad. 3 huge fires with zero containment wiping out a lot of mountain towns and beautiful forests (Big Bear Lake is evacuating now) as well as many homes and businesses. The smoke is bad too.

Yes! I’m not clear on all the specifics, but I understood that Cal Fire and/or other firefighting agencies had rules in place that made it very hard to get hired if you had a criminal record. The bill cleared some of those obstacles.

Here’s an NPR article with more of the details: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912193742/california-bill-clears-path-for-ex-inmates-to-become-firefighters
  It sounds like it has really opened up professional fire fighting jobs for former non-violent offenders - which is something very much needed here in firey Calif.

Have been trying to find new info on the SoCal fires this morning - which are huge and appear to be very close now to my old hood - but they're too busy talking about another earth quake they had in SoCal :-(

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #352 on: September 12, 2024, 12:51:00 PM »
Have been trying to find new info on the SoCal fires this morning - which are huge and appear to be very close now to my old hood - but they're too busy talking about another earth quake they had in SoCal :-(

Looks like the fire has crested the ridge into Big Bear Valley. There are a number of USFS roads in that area before the fire gets to town, and the fire is now moving down slope which is advantageous for firefighters. As long as the winds cooperate they should be able to stop it before it gets to the urban area. My guess from looking at the terrain is they will take their stand closer to town and let the fire burn up to near the dam and then use highway 18 to the west to stop northward spread.

RE earthquakes: It sure seems like something is happening in SoCal. Completely unpredictable of course, but historically earthquakes have portended more earthquakes. And it's been a long time since they've had a big one. For those in the area, make sure you have an emergency kit at a safe place at your house: https://earthquake.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2019/10/Earthquake-Preparedness-Checklist.pdf
« Last Edit: September 12, 2024, 12:53:28 PM by FINate »

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #353 on: September 12, 2024, 01:49:13 PM »
Have been trying to find new info on the SoCal fires this morning - which are huge and appear to be very close now to my old hood - but they're too busy talking about another earth quake they had in SoCal :-(

Looks like the fire has crested the ridge into Big Bear Valley. There are a number of USFS roads in that area before the fire gets to town, and the fire is now moving down slope which is advantageous for firefighters. As long as the winds cooperate they should be able to stop it before it gets to the urban area. My guess from looking at the terrain is they will take their stand closer to town and let the fire burn up to near the dam and then use highway 18 to the west to stop northward spread.

RE earthquakes: It sure seems like something is happening in SoCal. Completely unpredictable of course, but historically earthquakes have portended more earthquakes. And it's been a long time since they've had a big one. For those in the area, make sure you have an emergency kit at a safe place at your house: https://earthquake.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2019/10/Earthquake-Preparedness-Checklist.pdf


Typical earthquake sequences are larger quakes followed by smaller aftershocks. Smaller foreshocks are rare, accounting for less than 5% of quakes.

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #354 on: September 12, 2024, 01:56:05 PM »
Have been trying to find new info on the SoCal fires this morning - which are huge and appear to be very close now to my old hood - but they're too busy talking about another earth quake they had in SoCal :-(

Looks like the fire has crested the ridge into Big Bear Valley. There are a number of USFS roads in that area before the fire gets to town, and the fire is now moving down slope which is advantageous for firefighters. As long as the winds cooperate they should be able to stop it before it gets to the urban area. My guess from looking at the terrain is they will take their stand closer to town and let the fire burn up to near the dam and then use highway 18 to the west to stop northward spread.

RE earthquakes: It sure seems like something is happening in SoCal. Completely unpredictable of course, but historically earthquakes have portended more earthquakes. And it's been a long time since they've had a big one. For those in the area, make sure you have an emergency kit at a safe place at your house: https://earthquake.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2019/10/Earthquake-Preparedness-Checklist.pdf


Typical earthquake sequences are larger quakes followed by smaller aftershocks. Smaller foreshocks are rare, accounting for less than 5% of quakes.

It depends on the geology of a given location. In SoCal smaller earthquakes often increase the chance of larger earthquakes.

https://ktla.com/news/california/seismologist-warns-of-increased-earthquake-activity-in-southern-california/

Quote
While many people may believe—or hope—that a series of smaller quakes reduces the chance of a major one hitting the region, Jones says that is simply not how it works.

“The most constant feature of earthquakes is the relative number of large to small,” she said. “For every magnitude seven, you have 10 magnitude sixes, 100 magnitude fives, 1,000 magnitude fours, etc. So, if your rate of [magnitude] fours goes up, your chance of having a bigger one would go up by about the same amount.”

In other words, Jones says more earthquakes mean – more earthquakes.

spartana

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #355 on: September 12, 2024, 06:04:15 PM »
Have been trying to find new info on the SoCal fires this morning - which are huge and appear to be very close now to my old hood - but they're too busy talking about another earth quake they had in SoCal :-(

Looks like the fire has crested the ridge into Big Bear Valley. There are a number of USFS roads in that area before the fire gets to town, and the fire is now moving down slope which is advantageous for firefighters. As long as the winds cooperate they should be able to stop it before it gets to the urban area. My guess from looking at the terrain is they will take their stand closer to town and let the fire burn up to near the dam and then use highway 18 to the west to stop northward spread.

RE earthquakes: It sure seems like something is happening in SoCal. Completely unpredictable of course, but historically earthquakes have portended more earthquakes. And it's been a long time since they've had a big one. For those in the area, make sure you have an emergency kit at a safe place at your house: https://earthquake.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2019/10/Earthquake-Preparedness-Checklist.pdf
Thanks for the update (been at the VA all day doing all the annual medical stuff so limited media access). Hopefully they'll be able to stop or redirect it before it reaches town. Lots of homes and businesses there. Some other smaller towns (Wrightwood) lots 3 or 4 dozen homes in the now-larger Bridge fire. It'll be sad to see all the beautiful Nat forests surrounding all those towns decimated too.  Now I'm REALLY feeling glad I sold last month. While I feel bad for the new owners Im selfishly glad it's not me. Maybe if I could have gotten wildfire insurance but that's almost impossible here.

As for earthquakes - seeks there have been a lot of small one lately and have also heard they can be a precursor for a very large one. I've also heard they relieve pressure along a fault line and make a big one less likely. Where do all the geologists ( @Glenstache ) stand on this?

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #356 on: September 12, 2024, 09:04:40 PM »
Have been trying to find new info on the SoCal fires this morning - which are huge and appear to be very close now to my old hood - but they're too busy talking about another earth quake they had in SoCal :-(

Looks like the fire has crested the ridge into Big Bear Valley. There are a number of USFS roads in that area before the fire gets to town, and the fire is now moving down slope which is advantageous for firefighters. As long as the winds cooperate they should be able to stop it before it gets to the urban area. My guess from looking at the terrain is they will take their stand closer to town and let the fire burn up to near the dam and then use highway 18 to the west to stop northward spread.

RE earthquakes: It sure seems like something is happening in SoCal. Completely unpredictable of course, but historically earthquakes have portended more earthquakes. And it's been a long time since they've had a big one. For those in the area, make sure you have an emergency kit at a safe place at your house: https://earthquake.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2019/10/Earthquake-Preparedness-Checklist.pdf
Thanks for the update (been at the VA all day doing all the annual medical stuff so limited media access). Hopefully they'll be able to stop or redirect it before it reaches town. Lots of homes and businesses there. Some other smaller towns (Wrightwood) lots 3 or 4 dozen homes in the now-larger Bridge fire. It'll be sad to see all the beautiful Nat forests surrounding all those towns decimated too.  Now I'm REALLY feeling glad I sold last month. While I feel bad for the new owners Im selfishly glad it's not me. Maybe if I could have gotten wildfire insurance but that's almost impossible here.

As for earthquakes - seeks there have been a lot of small one lately and have also heard they can be a precursor for a very large one. I've also heard they relieve pressure along a fault line and make a big one less likely. Where do all the geologists ( @Glenstache ) stand on this?


Earthquakes are virtually impossible to predict and have shown to be random.  More earthquakes doesn't mean there are more or less ahead or larger or smaller ones. 

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #357 on: September 13, 2024, 08:14:09 AM »
Have been trying to find new info on the SoCal fires this morning - which are huge and appear to be very close now to my old hood - but they're too busy talking about another earth quake they had in SoCal :-(

Looks like the fire has crested the ridge into Big Bear Valley. There are a number of USFS roads in that area before the fire gets to town, and the fire is now moving down slope which is advantageous for firefighters. As long as the winds cooperate they should be able to stop it before it gets to the urban area. My guess from looking at the terrain is they will take their stand closer to town and let the fire burn up to near the dam and then use highway 18 to the west to stop northward spread.

RE earthquakes: It sure seems like something is happening in SoCal. Completely unpredictable of course, but historically earthquakes have portended more earthquakes. And it's been a long time since they've had a big one. For those in the area, make sure you have an emergency kit at a safe place at your house: https://earthquake.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2019/10/Earthquake-Preparedness-Checklist.pdf
Thanks for the update (been at the VA all day doing all the annual medical stuff so limited media access). Hopefully they'll be able to stop or redirect it before it reaches town. Lots of homes and businesses there. Some other smaller towns (Wrightwood) lots 3 or 4 dozen homes in the now-larger Bridge fire. It'll be sad to see all the beautiful Nat forests surrounding all those towns decimated too.  Now I'm REALLY feeling glad I sold last month. While I feel bad for the new owners Im selfishly glad it's not me. Maybe if I could have gotten wildfire insurance but that's almost impossible here.

As for earthquakes - seeks there have been a lot of small one lately and have also heard they can be a precursor for a very large one. I've also heard they relieve pressure along a fault line and make a big one less likely. Where do all the geologists ( @Glenstache ) stand on this?


Earthquakes are virtually impossible to predict and have shown to be random.  More earthquakes doesn't mean there are more or less ahead or larger or smaller ones.

I'm not a seismologist, not sure if you are, so take the following with a big grain of salt. I learned about this stuff growing up in CA and some college level science courses.

For sure, we can use a probability distribution to model earthquake behavior, but that doesn't mean they are purely random in the real world.

In a simple straight line slip fault system, smaller earthquakes can relieve pressure in an area thereby decreasing the likelihood of a larger event.

But SoCal is a different beast. Look at a map of the faults there:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/SoCal_Faults.svg

It's a twisted mess of faults running in all directions. There are slip forces, but also compression and extension forces. It's a very complex system, where smaller earthquakes have the potential to release pressure in some areas while increasing pressure in others. This is why foreshocks -- smaller events leading up to a mainshock -- are a thing in SoCal.

Again, I'm not saying any of this is a prediction. We simple don't know for sure. But SoCal has been in a so-called earthquake drought for 30-ish years, whereas seismic activity is now picking up again. And statistically the area is overdue for a larger shock (same is true in the Bay Area). A 6.0-7.0 is very possible on any number of the smaller faults. But what is really concerning is the next big one, a 7.0-8ish event that could rupture hundreds of miles of the San Andreas fault.

No need to live in fear, but respect the situation. Have an earthquake kit and family plan ready. Cellphone networks will likely be down/overwhelmed, and millions of people will need to shelter in place for a number of days. Just be prepared.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 08:16:17 AM by FINate »

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #358 on: September 13, 2024, 08:30:01 AM »
Have been trying to find new info on the SoCal fires this morning - which are huge and appear to be very close now to my old hood - but they're too busy talking about another earth quake they had in SoCal :-(

Looks like the fire has crested the ridge into Big Bear Valley. There are a number of USFS roads in that area before the fire gets to town, and the fire is now moving down slope which is advantageous for firefighters. As long as the winds cooperate they should be able to stop it before it gets to the urban area. My guess from looking at the terrain is they will take their stand closer to town and let the fire burn up to near the dam and then use highway 18 to the west to stop northward spread.

RE earthquakes: It sure seems like something is happening in SoCal. Completely unpredictable of course, but historically earthquakes have portended more earthquakes. And it's been a long time since they've had a big one. For those in the area, make sure you have an emergency kit at a safe place at your house: https://earthquake.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2019/10/Earthquake-Preparedness-Checklist.pdf
Thanks for the update (been at the VA all day doing all the annual medical stuff so limited media access). Hopefully they'll be able to stop or redirect it before it reaches town. Lots of homes and businesses there. Some other smaller towns (Wrightwood) lots 3 or 4 dozen homes in the now-larger Bridge fire. It'll be sad to see all the beautiful Nat forests surrounding all those towns decimated too.  Now I'm REALLY feeling glad I sold last month. While I feel bad for the new owners Im selfishly glad it's not me. Maybe if I could have gotten wildfire insurance but that's almost impossible here.

As for earthquakes - seeks there have been a lot of small one lately and have also heard they can be a precursor for a very large one. I've also heard they relieve pressure along a fault line and make a big one less likely. Where do all the geologists ( @Glenstache ) stand on this?


Earthquakes are virtually impossible to predict and have shown to be random.  More earthquakes doesn't mean there are more or less ahead or larger or smaller ones.

I'm not a seismologist, not sure if you are, so take the following with a big grain of salt. I learned about this stuff growing up in CA and some college level science courses.

For sure, we can use a probability distribution to model earthquake behavior, but that doesn't mean they are purely random in the real world.

In a simple straight line slip fault system, smaller earthquakes can relieve pressure in an area thereby decreasing the likelihood of a larger event.

But SoCal is a different beast. Look at a map of the faults there:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/SoCal_Faults.svg

It's a twisted mess of faults running in all directions. There are slip forces, but also compression and extension forces. It's a very complex system, where smaller earthquakes have the potential to release pressure in some areas while increasing pressure in others. This is why foreshocks -- smaller events leading up to a mainshock -- are a thing in SoCal.

Again, I'm not saying any of this is a prediction. We simple don't know for sure. But SoCal has been in a so-called earthquake drought for 30-ish years, whereas seismic activity is now picking up again. And statistically the area is overdue for a larger shock (same is true in the Bay Area). A 6.0-7.0 is very possible on any number of the smaller faults. But what is really concerning is the next big one, a 7.0-8ish event that could rupture hundreds of miles of the San Andreas fault.

No need to live in fear, but respect the situation. Have an earthquake kit and family plan ready. Cellphone networks will likely be down/overwhelmed, and millions of people will need to shelter in place for a number of days. Just be prepared.


The problem with foreshocks is that there is no way to identify them as such until The Big One occurs to which they can be linked.    A flurry of quakes, a quiet spell or anything in between may occur before a larger event.

Glenstache

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #359 on: September 13, 2024, 02:10:13 PM »
Earthquakes happen all of the time, but most are small and not newsworthy.
https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/?extent=21.86496,-135.79102&extent=57.84674,-82.35352&range=month&magnitude=all&settings=true

Yes, earthquakes do relieve stress on the fault. The thing is that it takes a lot of small ones to relieve the energy equivalent of a bit one. The scale is logarithmic, so it takes ten M3s to release as much as a M4, or 100 M2s to match that M4. The stress tends to not build up uniformly along a fault plane because geology is messy that way. Stress release and slippage along a fault allows motion in the surrounding crust that can load up ohter nearby faults or fault segments. Geologists and geophysicists have been getting MUCH better at understanding these things, but definitive prediction is not available in the state of the science.

TLDR: M4 is unexpected and part of a continuum of earthquakes that are ongoing. A bigger one will happen again (and again, and again) in the not distant future. We don't know when and planning for it 3 days out is the same as 3 years out: don't put your bed below big heavy things or glass that can/will crush or cut you, and keep at least a week of food and water in an emergency kit along with other things you may need for your climate like blankets if gas heat is unavailable. And don't try and run out of your house because it turns out you are pretty likely to fall and break yourself while trying to run in a box that is being violently shaken. Things tend to fall of tall buildings, so getting out the door of a building can also just put you in the line of fire of getting cut/crushed. 

spartana

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #360 on: September 15, 2024, 05:47:53 PM »
^^^Thanks @Glenstache  that aligns with what I vaguely remember from my college geology classes - back when dinosaurs roam what we believed to be a flat earth, we all lived in caves, and (HORRORS!) the internet hadn't been invented yet - ya know...the 1990s ;-). There are so many faults in Calif I can see how it doesn't really matter where you live as you're likely close to one, even a non-major fulltime, that could slip or slide at any time.  I had earthquake insurance at both of my last two houses but the deducable is pretty high and no guarantee you can even rebuild if the land is too damaged.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 05:51:20 PM by spartana »

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #361 on: September 20, 2024, 07:41:51 AM »
It seems they were able to stop the Line Fire after it crested the ridge: https://inciweb.wildfire.gov/incident-information/cabdf-line-fire Not totally out of danger yet, but as long as there are no wind events it'll probably be kept out of town limits.

Interesting article in the NYT a couple days ago the increasing cost and difficulty of living in California's mountain towns: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/us/san-bernardino-wildfire-risk.html Though I doubt this problem is unique to California since many towns in the forests of the semi-arid West have similar risks.

spartana

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #362 on: September 21, 2024, 09:39:21 AM »
It seems they were able to stop the Line Fire after it crested the ridge: https://inciweb.wildfire.gov/incident-information/cabdf-line-fire Not totally out of danger yet, but as long as there are no wind events it'll probably be kept out of town limits.

Interesting article in the NYT a couple days ago the increasing cost and difficulty of living in California's mountain towns: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/us/san-bernardino-wildfire-risk.html Though I doubt this problem is unique to California since many towns in the forests of the semi-arid West have similar risks.
It's still not fully contained but much better. And with rain on the way that should help. Of course then the mudslides are next! They are even doing their annual Ocktoberfest (a big deal there) and have returned all the animals to the zoo. So saved for another day! All those mountain towns are at high risk for fires and mudflows still as the heat and big Santa Ana winds haven't started yet. Now that the state put a moratorium on insurance companies to not cancel policies for a year I think more people will remain but sounds like lots of people want to move out asap.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #363 on: September 27, 2024, 03:13:36 AM »
For a long time, I have wondered how the densely populated barrier islands off the coasts of Florida would fare in a hurricane. Looks like they got hit hard by Helene.

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #364 on: September 27, 2024, 06:03:21 AM »
Helene released her fury on Floridians. I like the lady who thought she would be safe and dry because she put some tape around the bottom of her doors.


I have a frenemy who has a $3 million home (no stilts) a few steps from the beach in the Keys.  Am I terrible for wanting him to get a couple lashes from a storm one day?

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #365 on: September 27, 2024, 06:54:48 AM »
Of all the words to use in the headline, "unbelievable" is an absurd one. Just because something hasn't happened in your 40 years in a house (but happened repeatedly in your state), doesn't mean it couldn't happen. 100 years storms are happening once a decade now. Heck, an unnamed storm just dropped 20+" of rain in 12 hours in our neighboring town just last week. They hadn't even closed school. They are calling it a 1,000 year storm.

People not evacuating based on their experience is going to be a huge danger. Further evidence of the degrading view on experts. I've heard so many people here say they won't ever evacuate again after the did or didn't during Florence in 2018. It was a Cat 5 until 12 hours before hitting the coast, then just sat and rained for a week and cut off our city.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #366 on: September 27, 2024, 07:03:38 AM »
For a long time, I have wondered how the densely populated barrier islands off the coasts of Florida would fare in a hurricane. Looks like they got hit hard by Helene.
From the link:
"His van was toast, he said. His front door was sealed shut by surging water and beating wind. The option to leave was gone.

”This is astronomical,” he said. “I’ve never seen it this bad, never imagined it could be this bad. There’s no way I would have stayed if I’d known.”"


This individual managed to ignore the weather reports I was aware of 600 miles away, local authorities who had been encouraging people to spend the night inland, local word of mouth, economic signals from the insurance industry, and 30 years of climate science. His traits of ignoring information left him dumbfounded in a situation where:

"[His] sliding glass door looked like an aquarium as water pressed against it. His yard sat under five feet of surge and each successive wave that battered his bungalow submerged the windows entirely."


At some point, these sand bar towns must be entirely populated by people with the common tendency to ignore information about the threats offshore. Perhaps they create a local information bubble that screens out talk of hurricanes, beach erosion, or climate change. This information problem leads to situations where people are making poor choices:

Other people are building their houses on sand two meters above sea level so why shouldn't I? Other people ride out hurricanes on the beach so why shouldn't I? My car won't get flooded because if it gets bad enough I'll just drive out, right?

Denial extends far inland from the beach. The whole state of Florida is in denial. The people living in Galveston, New Orleans, Mobile, or Savannah are in denial. We're all in denial.

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #367 on: September 27, 2024, 08:05:57 AM »
For a long time, I have wondered how the densely populated barrier islands off the coasts of Florida would fare in a hurricane. Looks like they got hit hard by Helene.
From the link:
"His van was toast, he said. His front door was sealed shut by surging water and beating wind. The option to leave was gone.

”This is astronomical,” he said. “I’ve never seen it this bad, never imagined it could be this bad. There’s no way I would have stayed if I’d known.”"


This individual managed to ignore the weather reports I was aware of 600 miles away, local authorities who had been encouraging people to spend the night inland, local word of mouth, economic signals from the insurance industry, and 30 years of climate science. His traits of ignoring information left him dumbfounded in a situation where:

"[His] sliding glass door looked like an aquarium as water pressed against it. His yard sat under five feet of surge and each successive wave that battered his bungalow submerged the windows entirely."


At some point, these sand bar towns must be entirely populated by people with the common tendency to ignore information about the threats offshore. Perhaps they create a local information bubble that screens out talk of hurricanes, beach erosion, or climate change. This information problem leads to situations where people are making poor choices:

Other people are building their houses on sand two meters above sea level so why shouldn't I? Other people ride out hurricanes on the beach so why shouldn't I? My car won't get flooded because if it gets bad enough I'll just drive out, right?

Denial extends far inland from the beach. The whole state of Florida is in denial. The people living in Galveston, New Orleans, Mobile, or Savannah are in denial. We're all in denial.

Familiarity breeds complacency. Humans are notoriously short-sighted. In the big scheme of things, 40 or even 100 years is nothing. Throw in a large dose of cognitive dissonance because someone *really* wants to believe living on the beach/in the woods/on an ocean bluff is their best life, and you get people that ignore all the warnings and are legitimately surprised when disaster strikes. It's why people keep building/buying houses in extreme fire risk, on barrier islands, or don't carry earthquake insurance in some of the most seismically active areas of the world. Honesty, I would be shocked if this didn't happen.

This may sound harsh, but I think the only way people are going to internalize the risks is if they experience the cost, and then these stories make it to the general public as cautionary tales.

spartana

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #368 on: September 27, 2024, 09:08:59 AM »
^^^My experience as ex-coast guard stationed in places like NOLA (pre-Katrina), Key West, and several coastal east coast places like NC, VA, NJ, Boston and Maine is that people have evacuated in several past hurricanes that didn't turn out to be that destructive so they use the logic of "well I evacuated in the past and nothing happened so Im staying put and riding it out". Then one comes along that IS that bad and it's too late to do anything. They seem to have the same additude towards building (or worse, rebuilding) in disaster prone places. "It's never happened here before so I can build my dream house here".

Glenstache

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #369 on: September 27, 2024, 10:33:00 AM »
I think stop signs should start having elevations put on them showing the height of various storm surges (2, 4, 6 ft, for example) to make the storm predictions more visceral. As a nerd, when I was looking for a house and considering a location in a flood plain, the staff gauges for measuring stream height were pretty compelling for putting it firmly in the "no" category and much more tangible than the flood maps. A more approachable storm surge pole as means of public education would be useful to help people visualize just how deep a 6 foot surge (or whatever) would be in their neighborhood.

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #370 on: September 27, 2024, 10:59:34 AM »
^^^My experience as ex-coast guard stationed in places like NOLA (pre-Katrina), Key West, and several coastal east coast places like NC, VA, NJ, Boston and Maine is that people have evacuated in several past hurricanes that didn't turn out to be that destructive so they use the logic of "well I evacuated in the past and nothing happened so Im staying put and riding it out". Then one comes along that IS that bad and it's too late to do anything. They seem to have the same additude towards building (or worse, rebuilding) in disaster prone places. "It's never happened here before so I can build my dream house here".


That happened when furious Katrina slammed NOLA then Houston evacuated for Miss Rita and people spent 6-8 hours in their cars in I10 gridlock, some running out of gas, for a nothingburger storm.

ChpBstrd

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #371 on: September 27, 2024, 11:21:18 AM »
^^^My experience as ex-coast guard stationed in places like NOLA (pre-Katrina), Key West, and several coastal east coast places like NC, VA, NJ, Boston and Maine is that people have evacuated in several past hurricanes that didn't turn out to be that destructive so they use the logic of "well I evacuated in the past and nothing happened so Im staying put and riding it out". Then one comes along that IS that bad and it's too late to do anything. They seem to have the same additude towards building (or worse, rebuilding) in disaster prone places. "It's never happened here before so I can build my dream house here".
That happened when furious Katrina slammed NOLA then Houston evacuated for Miss Rita and people spent 6-8 hours in their cars in I10 gridlock, some running out of gas, for a nothingburger storm.
Maybe the sequence of rationalization goes like this:

1) "I'll live here and if it ever gets bad I'll just evacuate."
2) It gets bad. Attempt evacuation. End up stuck in gridlock traffic for 6-8 hours. House was fine the whole time because the storm went another way and destroyed other homes.
3) Vow not to evacuate next time.
4) Become a victim the next time.

The error is in step 3. The correct conclusion people should make is "I live in an unsafe place that I cannot evacuate from, so I should move."

roomtempmayo

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #372 on: September 27, 2024, 01:04:09 PM »

At some point, these sand bar towns must be entirely populated by people with the common tendency to ignore information about the threats offshore. Perhaps they create a local information bubble that screens out talk of hurricanes, beach erosion, or climate change. This information problem leads to situations where people are making poor choices:

Other people are building their houses on sand two meters above sea level so why shouldn't I? Other people ride out hurricanes on the beach so why shouldn't I? My car won't get flooded because if it gets bad enough I'll just drive out, right?


I've seen the stat bandied about that 13% of Florida homes lack any insurance at all, and it's probably higher on the coasts.

I wonder if older folks/retirees are actually less risk averse than younger people when it comes to property damage.  If you're 65 and looking at an uninsurable beach bungalow that has a 20% chance of being a total loss in the next 15 years, maybe you decide to YOLO and take that bet?

Not to mention the not insignificant number of people who literally think they can summon divine intervention through prayer, and so they are not subject to the laws of nature or probabilities. 

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #373 on: September 27, 2024, 01:25:45 PM »
I’m mostly surprised about the inland damage.

I was in Tennessee when Katrina hit, and what was left of the storm went right over me. I remember it being an above-average thunderstorm at that time, but nothing particularly noteworthy.

Major flooding in Atlanta, North Carolina, and Tennessee seems crazy to me.  I wonder how many don’t have flood insurance because they don’t live in a flood plain.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #374 on: September 27, 2024, 02:44:32 PM »

At some point, these sand bar towns must be entirely populated by people with the common tendency to ignore information about the threats offshore. Perhaps they create a local information bubble that screens out talk of hurricanes, beach erosion, or climate change. This information problem leads to situations where people are making poor choices:

Other people are building their houses on sand two meters above sea level so why shouldn't I? Other people ride out hurricanes on the beach so why shouldn't I? My car won't get flooded because if it gets bad enough I'll just drive out, right?


Just a guess, but I'd think that older people are far more likely not to have mortgages, and in most cases not having a mortgage is the only way to not have insurance.  So I'm sure the elderly make up a huge% of that 13%.  they are probably also least able to self-insure or rebuild--or even just find affordable housing--if their home is destroyed or heavily damaged since they are presumably mostly retired. 

I've seen the stat bandied about that 13% of Florida homes lack any insurance at all, and it's probably higher on the coasts.

I wonder if older folks/retirees are actually less risk averse than younger people when it comes to property damage.  If you're 65 and looking at an uninsurable beach bungalow that has a 20% chance of being a total loss in the next 15 years, maybe you decide to YOLO and take that bet?

Not to mention the not insignificant number of people who literally think they can summon divine intervention through prayer, and so they are not subject to the laws of nature or probabilities.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #375 on: September 27, 2024, 02:51:29 PM »
I’m mostly surprised about the inland damage.

I was in Tennessee when Katrina hit, and what was left of the storm went right over me. I remember it being an above-average thunderstorm at that time, but nothing particularly noteworthy.

Major flooding in Atlanta, North Carolina, and Tennessee seems crazy to me.  I wonder how many don’t have flood insurance because they don’t live in a flood plain.

Did you hear of major flooding in Atlanta? I live about an hour south and it rained yesterday a few inches, but its been sunny today and we've just had to clear out some downed branches. No real damage

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #376 on: September 29, 2024, 08:05:10 PM »
I read a book, "The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes". It was very interesting, a bit dated. I believe it's been updated more recently but I didn't read that version. Denial is a real thing. Relying on past experience, but not realizing that past experience doesn't apply to the situation happens. Sometimes to tragic effect.

There was a story in the book about an elderly man who died in Katrina. Could have evacuated, his family did, but he refused. He died. The author broke down why it happened. There were a lot of older people who didn't evacuate because of a previous hurricane and they did just fine, so they used that experience to decide not to evacuate. That decision however was made with no longer accurate information: the previous hurricane, the wetlands and other natural features which actually protected inland from flooding were still intact. With Katrina, that was no longer the case.

This experience, assuming the people survive, may result in them choosing to evacuate in future. However, you also have to be careful about when you make the call to evacuate. Because if the government says to evacuate, and it ends up not being necessary, then people in general are less likely to pay attention next time.

Real example: tornado sirens in my town. They set them off WAY too often. As a result, my response when the siren goes off is to check the weather, then make my own determination if I need to do anything. I rarely do. My parents moved to the area, and where they were living if the siren goes off you get in the basement immediately. After a couple years here, now they call me. They have learned in 3 years that the tornado siren is not something you need to pay attention to, because in 3 years the siren has gone off at least a dozen times and only once was it truly serious. I need to figure out who makes that decision and write a letter to them, because they're going to get people killed at some point.

The Boy Who Cried Wolf needs to make a resurgence in popularity.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #377 on: September 29, 2024, 09:39:44 PM »
Guy buys an oceanfront house, knowing it could erode into the ocean in 10 years or less.

Quote
David Moot spent about two decades longing for an oceanfront home on Cape Cod.

This year, he’ll be spending the holidays at his dream house. Moot, 59, bought a three-bedroom, two-bathroom bungalow with sweeping views of the Atlantic Ocean for just under $400,000 late last year, he told The Washington Post.

The catch? It might crumble off the cliff soon.

Quote
Experts say it could fall into the ocean within 10 years.

But where most see risk, Moot saw opportunity.

“The prices were always far beyond my reach. So this particular house came into my price range due to the erosion issue. So I said, well, let me see what I can do, if I can make it happen,” Moot said. “Life’s too short. People think I’m crazy. Well, I could walk out of the door tomorrow and get hit by a car.”

Quote
He casually searched for oceanfront homes, scouring small towns and checking on property listings. The dream remained unattainable until he saw a home, built in Eastham, Mass., in 1965, listed for $395,000. Two years ago, that same home was listed for about $1.2 million, he said.

Quote
Sellers immediately informed Moot of the erosion problem, and the risk that the home may not be inhabitable for very long. He decided to take on the house, and the erosion that came with it, he said.

We tend to view houses as something that will last indefinitely, that we can live in as long as we want, and that will retain (or gain) value when we want to sell. Viewing them almost as consumables to be used for as long as they last is kind of interesting.  Probably not many places where the future risk is obvious enough to bring the price down this much, though.

https://wapo.st/3ZLmCtA

NorCal

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #378 on: September 30, 2024, 06:29:00 AM »
I’m mostly surprised about the inland damage.

I was in Tennessee when Katrina hit, and what was left of the storm went right over me. I remember it being an above-average thunderstorm at that time, but nothing particularly noteworthy.

Major flooding in Atlanta, North Carolina, and Tennessee seems crazy to me.  I wonder how many don’t have flood insurance because they don’t live in a flood plain.

Did you hear of major flooding in Atlanta? I live about an hour south and it rained yesterday a few inches, but its been sunny today and we've just had to clear out some downed branches. No real damage


Some of the early news reports covered flooding in the broader Atlanta area. I don’t recall if it was Atlanta proper or surrounding areas.

It presumably got attention for the simple reason that a lot of reporters live in Atlanta.

StarBright

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #379 on: September 30, 2024, 07:19:08 AM »

Real example: tornado sirens in my town. They set them off WAY too often. As a result, my response when the siren goes off is to check the weather, then make my own determination if I need to do anything. I rarely do. My parents moved to the area, and where they were living if the siren goes off you get in the basement immediately. After a couple years here, now they call me. They have learned in 3 years that the tornado siren is not something you need to pay attention to, because in 3 years the siren has gone off at least a dozen times and only once was it truly serious. I need to figure out who makes that decision and write a letter to them, because they're going to get people killed at some point.

The Boy Who Cried Wolf needs to make a resurgence in popularity.

Tornado sirens and emergency alerts drive me batty. They activate for the entire county when there is a warning. I live about half a mile from the northern county line so they never apply to me. They also test them twice a week. They are almost background noise at this point. I have to force myself to check sometimes to see if it applies to me.

The one time I had to get in the basement was for a tornado the next county over. I noticed the green sky, checked my phone (saw nothing), and then googled emergency alerts for the metro area. Saw the other county had a warning. Tornado touched down a couple of miles away.


Dancin'Dog

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #380 on: September 30, 2024, 07:23:52 AM »
I can't believe the level of devastation from Helene and the few discussions here.  Has the national news not shared it?  This hurricane was HUGE. 

NorCal

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #381 on: September 30, 2024, 07:32:24 AM »
I can't believe the level of devastation from Helene and the few discussions here.  Has the national news not shared it?  This hurricane was HUGE.

I’ll take this as an opportunity to bemoan the state of journalism today.

There’s a reason that 80%+ of the news you see is politics.

Politics is cheap to cover. If you give them the opportunity, political campaigns and lobbyists will even write most of an article for the various news organizations.

There just aren’t enough journalists left to cover real world events. Much less travel to the site of a news story.

Heck, it even came out recently that the WSJ editorial board is taking policy positions straight from corporate PR teams. I’m not in a place to find the link to this now, but I can track it down later if anyone is interested.

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #382 on: September 30, 2024, 07:35:39 AM »
I can't believe the level of devastation from Helene and the few discussions here.  Has the national news not shared it?  This hurricane was HUGE.


I get most of my news from TikTok these days.

GuitarStv

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #383 on: September 30, 2024, 08:17:46 AM »
Guy buys an oceanfront house, knowing it could erode into the ocean in 10 years or less.

Quote
David Moot spent about two decades longing for an oceanfront home on Cape Cod.

This year, he’ll be spending the holidays at his dream house. Moot, 59, bought a three-bedroom, two-bathroom bungalow with sweeping views of the Atlantic Ocean for just under $400,000 late last year, he told The Washington Post.

The catch? It might crumble off the cliff soon.

Quote
Experts say it could fall into the ocean within 10 years.

But where most see risk, Moot saw opportunity.

“The prices were always far beyond my reach. So this particular house came into my price range due to the erosion issue. So I said, well, let me see what I can do, if I can make it happen,” Moot said. “Life’s too short. People think I’m crazy. Well, I could walk out of the door tomorrow and get hit by a car.”

Quote
He casually searched for oceanfront homes, scouring small towns and checking on property listings. The dream remained unattainable until he saw a home, built in Eastham, Mass., in 1965, listed for $395,000. Two years ago, that same home was listed for about $1.2 million, he said.

Quote
Sellers immediately informed Moot of the erosion problem, and the risk that the home may not be inhabitable for very long. He decided to take on the house, and the erosion that came with it, he said.

We tend to view houses as something that will last indefinitely, that we can live in as long as we want, and that will retain (or gain) value when we want to sell. Viewing them almost as consumables to be used for as long as they last is kind of interesting.  Probably not many places where the future risk is obvious enough to bring the price down this much, though.

https://wapo.st/3ZLmCtA

Traditionally in Japan (I'm guessing due to storm and earthquake damage?), houses are valued lower and lower the older they are.  After 30-40 years they're usually considered worthless.

Blackeagle

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #384 on: September 30, 2024, 08:45:53 AM »
I can't believe the level of devastation from Helene and the few discussions here.  Has the national news not shared it?  This hurricane was HUGE.

It seems to be getting plenty of coverage on the various news websites that I frequent.  Either Helene or the war in Lebanon has been the top story for the past few days.

ChpBstrd

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #385 on: September 30, 2024, 08:57:37 AM »
Guy buys an oceanfront house, knowing it could erode into the ocean in 10 years or less.

Quote
David Moot spent about two decades longing for an oceanfront home on Cape Cod.

This year, he’ll be spending the holidays at his dream house. Moot, 59, bought a three-bedroom, two-bathroom bungalow with sweeping views of the Atlantic Ocean for just under $400,000 late last year, he told The Washington Post.

The catch? It might crumble off the cliff soon.

Quote
Experts say it could fall into the ocean within 10 years.

But where most see risk, Moot saw opportunity.

“The prices were always far beyond my reach. So this particular house came into my price range due to the erosion issue. So I said, well, let me see what I can do, if I can make it happen,” Moot said. “Life’s too short. People think I’m crazy. Well, I could walk out of the door tomorrow and get hit by a car.”

Quote
He casually searched for oceanfront homes, scouring small towns and checking on property listings. The dream remained unattainable until he saw a home, built in Eastham, Mass., in 1965, listed for $395,000. Two years ago, that same home was listed for about $1.2 million, he said.

Quote
Sellers immediately informed Moot of the erosion problem, and the risk that the home may not be inhabitable for very long. He decided to take on the house, and the erosion that came with it, he said.

We tend to view houses as something that will last indefinitely, that we can live in as long as we want, and that will retain (or gain) value when we want to sell. Viewing them almost as consumables to be used for as long as they last is kind of interesting.  Probably not many places where the future risk is obvious enough to bring the price down this much, though.

https://wapo.st/3ZLmCtA
This is an interesting twist on “die with nothing”.

I’m guessing this is an individual who doesn’t plan to live much longer, and is done with long-term planning. Still it’s interesting that many people in that position seek whatever brief gratification comes from living on the beach. They could spend the last few years of their life making a difference in the world, helping their families through their loss, learning new things, exploring art or philosophy, etc. Nope. They’ve heard living on the beach is the best way to live so they’ll gamble everything, spend obscene amounts of money, and end up living on a precarious sandbar watching the waves roll in at a cost of maybe 50 cents per wave.

I could write a short story about a character in this position, realizing in the end that they’ve simply bought a product sold by popular culture as a stand-in for instant happiness - that the sound of ocean waves and the view of the skyline get as old and bland as anything else.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #386 on: September 30, 2024, 09:13:43 AM »
I can't believe the level of devastation from Helene and the few discussions here.  Has the national news not shared it?  This hurricane was HUGE.


I get most of my news from TikTok these days.




Cell service & internet has been down throughout the flood areas, in the mountains.  We still can't reach our friends up there.  I drove up to check on our cabin near Boone, NC on Saturday.   Cell service & power outages began in Hickory, NC which is about 45 minutes from Boone.  Parts of Lenoir had electricity & cell coverage.  Customers were lined up around all the gas stations there. 
Downtown Boone was drying out by then, with the streets & sidewalks covered in mud.  As I headed West the roads got bad, with water rushing across the highway, downed powerlines across the highway, trees leaning across the road & onto powerlines.  The road banks & ditches were washed out in many areas & it was nerve-wracking wondering whether the roadway might break away as I drove through. 
Our place is a couple hundred feet above the creeks, so flooding wasn't a real concern.  I worried that the driveway had washed out, fallen trees on our home or shop, and mudslides were possible.  Fortunately, I was able to make it up the driveway and the house and shop were fine.  About 6-8 large trees were uprooted around the yard, and many more down in the surrounding woods.  I'd carried a chainsaw along in case I needed to clear a road, the driveway, or if there were trees on the buildings.  It was a relief being able to leave the saw in the van. I emptied the food from the fridge & the deep freezer and unplugged them, and called it "job-done".  I left a 5-gallon can of gas for my neighbor's generator. 
We have numerous friends up there that I hoped were okay.  I couldn't check on all of them, so I decided to visit a friend who lives alone in a very remote part of the county.  I made it out to her house and was happy to see that she was fine. 


From the limited views I had around Watauga County, it seems that the damage isn't quite as bad as the neighboring counties to the South and West.  News is just now coming out about many of the areas between Boone and Asheville.  Many of these areas are impossible to reach by road because the roads are gone. 

spartana

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #387 on: September 30, 2024, 09:55:36 AM »
I just saw the news last night for the first time in a few days and wow the destruction and desvastation is massive. Something like one of those once-in-a-1000 year storms. And apparently in Atlanta it was the first ever recorded flooding event of that magnitude. So while it's probably under reported out here on the west coast (where we are dealing with our wildfires and wishing for rain) the world news seems to be actively reporting on it. That and the middle east and the elections seem to be the main topics. My ex-FIL lives in Asheville and 3 of my ex's sibs live in NC and Georgia and I guess no one's been able to contact them. The ex (also Coast Guard) is headed out that way as part of a support team so hope his family are OK.

Meanwhile, in my old hood, the 40k acre Line FIRE has rekindled yesterday and evacuations are starting again. Big heat wave starts today too. Glad I moved down "The Hill" to the moist foggy coast!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2024, 10:00:06 AM by spartana »

Turtle

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #388 on: September 30, 2024, 10:15:14 AM »
I just saw the news last night for the first time in a few days and wow the destruction and desvastation is massive. Something like one of those once-in-a-1000 year storms. And apparently in Atlanta it was the first ever recorded flooding event of that magnitude. So while it's probably under reported out here on the west coast (where we are dealing with our wildfires and wishing for rain) the world news seems to be actively reporting on it. That and the middle east and the elections seem to be the main topics. My ex-FIL lives in Asheville and 3 of my ex's sibs live in NC and Georgia and I guess no one's been able to contact them. The ex (also Coast Guard) is headed out that way as part of a support team so hope his family are OK.

Meanwhile, in my old hood, the 40k acre Line FIRE has rekindled yesterday and evacuations are starting again. Big heat wave starts today too. Glad I moved down "The Hill" to the moist foggy coast!

I have friends in SC and NC in the affected areas who are going on 4 days without power but are otherwise feeling fortunate comparatively.  This time of year is also big for the tourist industry with the folks coming to see the fall colors, etc so that will be an additional hit to those businesses.

AnotherEngineer

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #389 on: September 30, 2024, 10:38:04 AM »
I'm in the other end of the state from the destruction (I'm coming to realize the benefits of a flood just draining back into the ocean vs. it tearing off downhill). To pull a few discussions together, TikTok and "reporting" from private citizens has become essential for breaking news. The old way of local reporters passing up official reports from emergency personnel has been supplemented by "this is video of the flood in my backyard" livestreaming, to the point where news agencies are depending on it for prompt reporting, especially like here were power, cell service, and local travel are all unreliable AND the conditions are so localized based on each individual stream becoming a different torrent.

As a result, TikTok may be the best source for up to the minute conditions, though those conditions may be highly localized and potentially suspect with regards to location, date/time, accompanying text etc, as it gets filtered through the pay-per-thousand-views media platforms.

North Carolina saw two separate "1,000 year" rain events at opposite ends of the state in a little over a week.

roomtempmayo

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #390 on: September 30, 2024, 10:49:50 AM »
Guy buys an oceanfront house, knowing it could erode into the ocean in 10 years or less.

Quote
David Moot spent about two decades longing for an oceanfront home on Cape Cod.

This year, he’ll be spending the holidays at his dream house. Moot, 59, bought a three-bedroom, two-bathroom bungalow with sweeping views of the Atlantic Ocean for just under $400,000 late last year, he told The Washington Post.

The catch? It might crumble off the cliff soon.

Quote
Experts say it could fall into the ocean within 10 years.

But where most see risk, Moot saw opportunity.

“The prices were always far beyond my reach. So this particular house came into my price range due to the erosion issue. So I said, well, let me see what I can do, if I can make it happen,” Moot said. “Life’s too short. People think I’m crazy. Well, I could walk out of the door tomorrow and get hit by a car.”

Quote
He casually searched for oceanfront homes, scouring small towns and checking on property listings. The dream remained unattainable until he saw a home, built in Eastham, Mass., in 1965, listed for $395,000. Two years ago, that same home was listed for about $1.2 million, he said.

Quote
Sellers immediately informed Moot of the erosion problem, and the risk that the home may not be inhabitable for very long. He decided to take on the house, and the erosion that came with it, he said.

We tend to view houses as something that will last indefinitely, that we can live in as long as we want, and that will retain (or gain) value when we want to sell. Viewing them almost as consumables to be used for as long as they last is kind of interesting.  Probably not many places where the future risk is obvious enough to bring the price down this much, though.

https://wapo.st/3ZLmCtA
This is an interesting twist on “die with nothing”.

I’m guessing this is an individual who doesn’t plan to live much longer, and is done with long-term planning. Still it’s interesting that many people in that position seek whatever brief gratification comes from living on the beach. They could spend the last few years of their life making a difference in the world, helping their families through their loss, learning new things, exploring art or philosophy, etc. Nope. They’ve heard living on the beach is the best way to live so they’ll gamble everything, spend obscene amounts of money, and end up living on a precarious sandbar watching the waves roll in at a cost of maybe 50 cents per wave.

I could write a short story about a character in this position, realizing in the end that they’ve simply bought a product sold by popular culture as a stand-in for instant happiness - that the sound of ocean waves and the view of the skyline get as old and bland as anything else.

I also wonder how much the property would be worth eroded and without a house on it. 

Even if the lot itself can't be build on, maybe it's worth ~$200k for someone to park a camper on?  Or some other alternative use?

It wouldn't be my approach, but it's not totally crazy to pay $200k ($400k purchase - $200k resale) for a decade of ocean views from a million dollar house.

That's obviously complete speculation, but seems like one way this purchase would be less crazy.

spartana

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #391 on: September 30, 2024, 11:10:35 AM »
^^^He may just look at it as equivalent to renting. Instead of buying a million dollar ocean view home he's pre-paying $500k to live there as long as he can - maybe 10 years, maybe longer. Once it becomes uninhabitable he just walks away owing nothing. He'll still have the other $500k (plus interest) to live on or buy another place once needed.  While not my idea of stability (pun intended ;-)) I can see it as a way to YOLO and not much different then renting an expensive ocean view place for a few years.

Sibley

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #392 on: September 30, 2024, 03:21:14 PM »

Real example: tornado sirens in my town. They set them off WAY too often. As a result, my response when the siren goes off is to check the weather, then make my own determination if I need to do anything. I rarely do. My parents moved to the area, and where they were living if the siren goes off you get in the basement immediately. After a couple years here, now they call me. They have learned in 3 years that the tornado siren is not something you need to pay attention to, because in 3 years the siren has gone off at least a dozen times and only once was it truly serious. I need to figure out who makes that decision and write a letter to them, because they're going to get people killed at some point.

The Boy Who Cried Wolf needs to make a resurgence in popularity.

Tornado sirens and emergency alerts drive me batty. They activate for the entire county when there is a warning. I live about half a mile from the northern county line so they never apply to me. They also test them twice a week. They are almost background noise at this point. I have to force myself to check sometimes to see if it applies to me.

The one time I had to get in the basement was for a tornado the next county over. I noticed the green sky, checked my phone (saw nothing), and then googled emergency alerts for the metro area. Saw the other county had a warning. Tornado touched down a couple of miles away.

Yep. The problem is they centralized the alert system. But weather isn't centralized, it's localized. So there's a mismatch. But testing twice a week? That's massive overkill. Once a month in my town.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #393 on: September 30, 2024, 04:19:30 PM »
I'm in the other end of the state from the destruction (I'm coming to realize the benefits of a flood just draining back into the ocean vs. it tearing off downhill). To pull a few discussions together, TikTok and "reporting" from private citizens has become essential for breaking news. The old way of local reporters passing up official reports from emergency personnel has been supplemented by "this is video of the flood in my backyard" livestreaming, to the point where news agencies are depending on it for prompt reporting, especially like here were power, cell service, and local travel are all unreliable AND the conditions are so localized based on each individual stream becoming a different torrent.

As a result, TikTok may be the best source for up to the minute conditions, though those conditions may be highly localized and potentially suspect with regards to location, date/time, accompanying text etc, as it gets filtered through the pay-per-thousand-views media platforms.

North Carolina saw two separate "1,000 year" rain events at opposite ends of the state in a little over a week.

A few months ago, I volunteered with the National Guard for forest fire response. I was working in the headquarters coordinating our response as opposed to out in the field. The information I was getting from social media (X and Facebook) was sometimes better than I was receiving in briefings in the emergency operations center. At least insofar as activity on the ground. Local governments were primarily posting things on Facebook and sometimes it would conflict with what we were hearing from our Soldiers on the ground. One video or piece of information from social media might make it into the news but there might be 10 or 20 additional videos, photos, first-hand accounts, etc. if you were on the platform.

Telecaster

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #394 on: September 30, 2024, 05:41:55 PM »
Traditionally in Japan (I'm guessing due to storm and earthquake damage?), houses are valued lower and lower the older they are.  After 30-40 years they're usually considered worthless.

It is because of demographics.  There are fewer and fewer people each year in the home buying market so homes go down in value. 

uniwelder

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #395 on: October 01, 2024, 07:16:09 AM »
I realize this discussion of Helene's inland effect is getting off topic, but I wanted to share 2 photos that impressed me.  This is a bridge that crosses the New River, one town over from where I live.  The river peaked at 31 feet above its normal level, which is the 2nd highest ever recorded.  In 1940, it was at 36 feet, but all other major floods have been 20-24 feet. The surprising this is that we didn't actually get much rain here.  There was 5 inches of accumulation over a week period (there was some rain a couple of days before Helene) and only 2 inches the day the storm passed closest to here.  The reason for the intense river flood which has destroyed many homes along its banks, is that it flows north from the direction of the hurricane. 

Blackeagle

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #396 on: October 01, 2024, 07:33:07 AM »
Quote
“We flooded here four times in the last four years,” said Driscoll, as he threw his television sets, furniture, appliances and other belongings to the curb. “I’m just hoping I can sell the house. It’s a good neighborhood for sure, but dealing with the floods is horrible.”

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/st-petersburg-florida-homeowners-hurricane-insurance-cost-4bc92822?st=Tj5dtv&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink

glacio09

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #397 on: October 01, 2024, 08:02:14 AM »
My friend's aunt lives in Ashville and is in her 80s. Apparently she only watches some, in my opinion, questionable cable channels. They never mentioned the hurricane so the first she found out about it was when it was over her house and took out her power. She had enough cell phone power to call my friend, but that was about it. The only way to get to the house is via a bridge that's been taken out. Thankfully she's a bit of a hoarder so she should have enough food to last a few days, but he's been in contact with some emergency groups to get someone to check on here.

NorCal

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #398 on: October 01, 2024, 08:41:09 AM »
Quote
“We flooded here four times in the last four years,” said Driscoll, as he threw his television sets, furniture, appliances and other belongings to the curb. “I’m just hoping I can sell the house. It’s a good neighborhood for sure, but dealing with the floods is horrible.”

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/st-petersburg-florida-homeowners-hurricane-insurance-cost-4bc92822?st=Tj5dtv&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink

Finally some good reporting from the WSJ.

Maybe I’m looking at confirmation bias, but I feel like there will be a tipping point on the real estate market in the next few years.

Most consumers and businesses have been sticking their head in the sand because it’s easier than dealing with hypothetical future losses on real estate.

Now these losses are turning into reality with upside down mortgages, lost equity, and impossible insurance math.

With losses changing from hypothetical to real in Tampa, it doesn’t take much for people to turn their imagination to their own neighborhood.

It also maybe takes 1-2 troubling quarters in regional banks before mortgage underwriters start asking questions about their regional exposure. I’m not saying it will turn to contagion, but we might start hearing about neighborhoods where lenders won’t go.

I’m not saying this is going to happen immediately. But I think we will be looking back on this time as a fairly significant inflection point in the real estate market.



Villanelle

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #399 on: October 01, 2024, 12:58:19 PM »
Quote
“We flooded here four times in the last four years,” said Driscoll, as he threw his television sets, furniture, appliances and other belongings to the curb. “I’m just hoping I can sell the house. It’s a good neighborhood for sure, but dealing with the floods is horrible.”

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/st-petersburg-florida-homeowners-hurricane-insurance-cost-4bc92822?st=Tj5dtv&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink

Finally some good reporting from the WSJ.

Maybe I’m looking at confirmation bias, but I feel like there will be a tipping point on the real estate market in the next few years.

Most consumers and businesses have been sticking their head in the sand because it’s easier than dealing with hypothetical future losses on real estate.

Now these losses are turning into reality with upside down mortgages, lost equity, and impossible insurance math.

With losses changing from hypothetical to real in Tampa, it doesn’t take much for people to turn their imagination to their own neighborhood.

It also maybe takes 1-2 troubling quarters in regional banks before mortgage underwriters start asking questions about their regional exposure. I’m not saying it will turn to contagion, but we might start hearing about neighborhoods where lenders won’t go.

I’m not saying this is going to happen immediately. But I think we will be looking back on this time as a fairly significant inflection point in the real estate market.

The lenders may not have to start getting selective.  They require insurance (in most cases) and if insurers won't write, or policies are so expensive that they aren't feasible, the effect will be the same.  People won't be able to get mortgages.  I think we may also see people starting to default on loans that require insurance, when they can't find an insurer, or can't afford the skyrocketing insurance premiums. 

The insurance companies may do most of the work for the lenders, by making it so people can't buy (or can't borrow) in certain neighborhoods unless they are willing to pay cash and eat the significant possibility of catastrophic loss, like the guy who bought that cliffside home did. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!