Author Topic: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb  (Read 80254 times)

hooplady

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #100 on: June 20, 2023, 03:21:29 PM »
curious, what city?  also is this within floodzones/close to the coast?
Jacksonville, in a historic area which is pretty far from the coast and most of the homes have withstood 100+ years of storms. Some of the neighborhood is in a flood zone, my portion is not. Maybe that person's house is on one of the streets that still floods; ironically it's due to poor infrastructure not nearby waterways.

des999

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2023, 08:22:42 AM »
curious, what city?  also is this within floodzones/close to the coast?
Jacksonville, in a historic area which is pretty far from the coast and most of the homes have withstood 100+ years of storms. Some of the neighborhood is in a flood zone, my portion is not. Maybe that person's house is on one of the streets that still floods; ironically it's due to poor infrastructure not nearby waterways.

interesting.  I'm familiar.  I live in Ponte Vedra.  My mother in law is in San Marco, one of those historic downtown areas.  Flooding is terrible for her.

My community is about 10 years old, but they built us all up to about 16' above sea level, as well we are just outside the flood zone.  My home owners insurance is cheaper here than it was in Columbus Ohio.  Although my price went up this year after last years hurricane (even though it didn't impact my area).  I'm sure that will be a common theme over the years, unfortunately. 

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2023, 11:11:40 AM »
Interesting essay on the history of selling the climate in Florida and California, and how the changing climate has become an issue for these states: https://theconversation.com/california-and-florida-grew-quickly-on-the-promise-of-perfect-climates-in-the-1900s-today-they-lead-the-country-in-climate-change-risks-207470

MrGreen

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2023, 03:52:53 PM »
It's too early to say but about-to-be Hurricane Lee in the Atlantic might be a nasty one. As a Wilmington, NC resident, we're in the path of possibility. Seems almost every year now we're getting a hurricane.

hdatontodo

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #104 on: September 07, 2023, 08:46:59 AM »
It's too early to say but about-to-be Hurricane Lee in the Atlantic might be a nasty one. As a Wilmington, NC resident, we're in the path of possibility. Seems almost every year now we're getting a hurricane.
Hopefully, it will pass by you, and the forecast won't change.



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clarkfan1979

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #105 on: September 07, 2023, 09:56:10 AM »
From what I remember, the federal government went on record in 2014 and stated that they were going to start reducing the federal funding of flood insurance. It felt like it was 75% subsidized and the federal government had a 10-year plan to reduce the compensation to 25% subsidized. If someone had an insurance plan that cost $10,000/year to be in a flood plain, the federal government was paying $7500 and the home owner was paying $2500.

The plan was to flip it over the course of 10-years so the home owner was paying $7500/year and the federal government was paying $2500/year. During the same 10-years period the risk premium doubled to $20,000 total. The home owner is paying $15,000 and the government is paying $5,000. I think this is somewhat representative of how policies went from $2,500 to $15,000 over the course of 10-years.

My rental in Florida is about 3 miles from the Gulf and not in a flood plain. From 2012 to 2020, my house insurance policy increased from $750/year to $950/year. However, my policy increased in 2021 to $1,450, then 2022 to $2166/year and now in 2023 it's $3,250/year. I also got a new roof in 2023. The house has a market value of around 375K.

 

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #106 on: September 07, 2023, 07:38:03 PM »
It could always be worse. Your annual home insurance premium could have tripled from $200k to $600k!


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-07/ultra-wealthy-miami-homeowners-see-insurance-costs-top-600-000-a-year

2sk22

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #107 on: September 08, 2023, 02:49:52 AM »
It could always be worse. Your annual home insurance premium could have tripled from $200k to $600k!


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-07/ultra-wealthy-miami-homeowners-see-insurance-costs-top-600-000-a-year

Good article. I have been thinking about this paragraph from this article:

Quote
...only the affluent will be able to afford to insure themselves against the extreme weather, floods and wildfires on our warming planet. People of more modest means will simply be priced out, industry experts say.

I just read recently that 42% of home owners do not have a mortgage. If you don't have a mortgage and you are sufficiently wealthy, I suppose it's possible to self-insure. But anyone who has a mortgage typically must have home insurance. Wonder what this is going to lead to.

bacchi

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #108 on: September 08, 2023, 08:31:07 AM »
It could always be worse. Your annual home insurance premium could have tripled from $200k to $600k!


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-07/ultra-wealthy-miami-homeowners-see-insurance-costs-top-600-000-a-year

Good article. I have been thinking about this paragraph from this article:

Quote
...only the affluent will be able to afford to insure themselves against the extreme weather, floods and wildfires on our warming planet. People of more modest means will simply be priced out, industry experts say.

I just read recently that 42% of home owners do not have a mortgage. If you don't have a mortgage and you are sufficiently wealthy, I suppose it's possible to self-insure. But anyone who has a mortgage typically must have home insurance. Wonder what this is going to lead to.

There are only a few ways for this to go.

One is an emptying out of Florida as more houses get demolished by storms and as insurance goes up. Not only have insurance rates gone up dramatically but Citizen's, the state insurer of last resort, is still subsidizing rates. That, of course, is bait-and-switch since taxpayers end up covering the shortfall.

Another way is for Florida to pass much stricter housing standards. There will necessarily be fewer houses on the coast and houses will be built to withstand 150 mph winds. Housing prices will go up substantially, resulting in much the same demographics as the first path, at least initially.

We may be seeing Florida population peak this decade.

ChpBstrd

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #109 on: September 08, 2023, 09:17:37 AM »
I have been thinking about this paragraph from this article:

Quote
...only the affluent will be able to afford to insure themselves against the extreme weather, floods and wildfires on our warming planet. People of more modest means will simply be priced out, industry experts say.

I just read recently that 42% of home owners do not have a mortgage. If you don't have a mortgage and you are sufficiently wealthy, I suppose it's possible to self-insure. But anyone who has a mortgage typically must have home insurance. Wonder what this is going to lead to.
Home prices and insurance costs have been skyrocketing recently in tourism destinations, like California and Florida. Everybody wants to live in paradise where the weather is never cold. Of course, the problem is these places are disaster-prone. It costs an enormous amount of money to maintain a structure there, even if we use insurance to float out the costs from hurricanes, earthquakes, and wildfires.

Some possibilities, which are not mutually exclusive:

1) Exclusivity Scenario: The high costs of living in these locations make them exclusive, and therefore even more desirable on a sustainable basis. These regions become bastions of the rich, and the wanna-be rich move there in an attempt to scrap their way to the top serving the needs of the rich. With each disaster, more of the wanna-be's are sent packing, completely broke and homeless. This makes the demographic even more predominantly rich and desirable. Basically, "if you can afford the insurance or self-insure to rebuild your home every few years, you may live in our state. Otherwise, this is not the place for you." Media and social media flock to the aspirational goal of walking on the beach someday, and everyone continues propping up the cost and desirability of living in these places. People continue to sacrifice other sorts of goals (homeownership, financial stability, retirement, kids) for the chance to live in the most popular locations. Meanwhile, states that are not resort destinations are seen as places where all the failures and poor people live. This is an extension of the concept of exclusive neighborhoods with expensive HOAs and minimum house sizes being seen as more desirable than regular neighborhoods by lots of people.

2) YoYo Housing Market Scenario: The housing ponzi scheme reaches a tipping point where there are no more buyers willing or able to pay millions of dollars to live in the places. At that moment, supply>demand and a price collapse begins, which prompts more people to try to sell, which leads to further price collapse. The 2008 housing correction could become a self-fulfilling pattern, as people who overextended to speculate on RE are forced to sell en masse, and are followed by new money expecting to buy the dip and ride the new trend up. A yo-yo effect occurs and the observation of a pattern attracts even more money. Prices zoom up and down for decades as investors try to time the market with leverage.

3) Tech-Induced Opportunity Equalization: A growing percentage of the population with WFH jobs says "fuck this, I want to live somewhere less naturally and financially precarious. I'd like to be able to own my own home, have kids, and/or retire someday." and so the migration to places like Tennessee, Colorado, or the midwest continues. Meanwhile, the Big One or more wildfires hit California, and a large Florida city gets hit hard by a category 5 hurricane, killing over a thousand people. The new cultural sense of luxury shifts from living 2 hours from the beach to being able to afford a home - anywhere - and not worry about its eventual destruction. The price of real estate nationwide evens out, as the benefits of nice weather locations are offset by their costs and risks, and as WFH equalizes opportunities across geography. Meanwhile, self-driving cars make it more popular to live 8+ hours from vacation destinations. People just let the car drive them across the country overnight while they sleep. A lifestyle of getting off work in Missouri on Friday afternoon, and waking up at the beach Saturday morning becomes possible, which means there's no need to own real estate there.

4) People start to want the cold. As summer temperatures keep climbing, mass-casualty event heat waves from 110F to 120F start making the news. After a few tens of thousands of people die, the new concept of luxury might change from watching the waves to watching it snow. With WFH reducing the demands upon commuters, cold weather might be seen as less of a problem than we currently see it. Within a generation, the concept of "good weather" may shift from tropical sun to midwestern spring and fall days. Whereas the boomers fled the winter cold, the next generation might flee the summer heat, moving toward the northern half of the continental U.S. The coasts are also a good place to escape heat, but with higher heat comes more hurricanes and the associated costs.

As I walk through each of these scenarios, I'm struck by how much our concept of value is driven by cultural ideas about what the good life is supposed to look like. "Going to the beach" as a valuable thing to do is a cultural construct. It could be replaced by "own your own home" or "live somewhere where it never gets 100F" or "try to live where the rich people are living" or "playing with the kids in the snow" because these cultural constructs have equal tangible value for most people. It's just a matter of mass culture and which way it moves.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2023, 02:45:02 PM by ChpBstrd »

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #110 on: September 08, 2023, 02:03:25 PM »
It is fun to imagine huge changes and shifts ahead but the current state looks a lot like 100 years ago and is unlikely to change dramatically. People will always want to live in beautiful coastal areas with mild weather. Storms be damned. Insurance costs may knock some of the froth off home prices but not a lot.

bacchi

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #111 on: September 08, 2023, 02:24:53 PM »
This would be only a smaller version of a grand plan I think could be had for balancing the human economic engine and environmentalism. Certainly off-topic but I imagine a future in which the beef and agriculture industries are optimized via engineering and synthetic production, eliminating the need for ranches and farmland in less hospitable environments. The entire Great Plains of the US is repurchased by the federal government. No private ownership is allowed. All fences are removed and the land is restored to the way it was when Native Americans freely roamed it. Bison herds restored, etc. There are still roads and people are able to camp there for some period that makes it a public benefit and component of physical and mental well-being.  Adequately funded Park Rangers ensure the maintenance of the resource. How glorious this would be.

I think Neuromancer (or another book by Gibson) discussed something similar. Some wealthy Native Americans, tired of the office and BS jobs, pooled their money and bought much of the Great Plains. They then returned to their nomadic ways.

2sk22

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #112 on: September 21, 2023, 08:39:50 AM »
I'm really interested in the work being done by the First Street Foundation. They have just released an updated report on insurability of homes in in some areas: https://firststreet.org/press/press-release-39-million-properties-are-significantly-overvalued-due-to-artificially-suppressed-home-insurance-costs/?ref=lite.improvethenews.org


ChpBstrd

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #113 on: September 21, 2023, 10:32:46 AM »
Headline:
"We left Florida because our homeowners insurance ballooned to $12,000. We walked away from everything we knew so our kids could have a future."

https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-homeowners-insurance-rising-costs-moving-to-wisconsin-2023-9?op=1

Quote
We got a letter in the mail from our home insurance carrier in 2021 saying, "Hey, your roof is X amount of years old. You either need to replace it or we can't guarantee that we're going to insure you for the upcoming year." We were thinking, we're new homeowners — we're freaked out about everything. We thought, what are we going to do?

We didn't have enough money for a new roof. We went out and got quotes. The cheapest I could find just to replace the shingles was $28,000. We emptied out our savings and I had to borrow against my 401(k).

We weren't ready for that kind of expenditure, but we did it.

The insurance company came back and said, "Thanks for doing your roof, it'll now be $29,000 to cover you a year." We told them, "Thank you, but we can't afford it."

John: Before the roof, we paid about $6,000 for our insurance premium.

After the roof, we got a quote from the statewide insurance, Citizens Property Insurance Corporation. It was the most affordable one.

Natalia: But our premium still doubled from the year before. Before we left, we were paying $12,000 for insurance.

Quote
Our electric bill would be up 33% by this summer, and that would've given me a $1,000 bill for the months of August, September, and October. Those are your hot months out there. And I was like, I can't afford this.

Quote
So we ran the numbers for a year, it was going to cost us $31,000 for daycare and after-school care while we work in Florida.

Quote
We sold the house for about $700,000 and some change, and we only owed about $260,000 on it. So we had nice equity.... The home we purchased was about $325,000. It's five bedrooms and three bathrooms.

fpjeepy

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2023, 03:01:11 PM »
Quote from: https://www.hamiltonnolan.com/p/insurance-politics-at-the-end-of
[yielding] a political crisis that will occur when all of the people living in other states finally say, “Why the fuck is so much of our federal budget going to protect these idiots’ beach houses?”

I was thinking this same thing. I live on the coast (on a boat) but I work in the boating industry so my options are mostly commute or live on the coast. But that being said, why should a guy in Kentucky be paying for all the disasters that happen in Florida and California?

dang1

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #115 on: September 28, 2023, 12:55:17 AM »
“contextualize the money flowing in by comparing it to things like what percentage of the state’s revenue it makes up and how much the federal government gets back through its taxes on the state’s residents.”
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

"states according to their dependence on the federal government”
https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/

fpjeepy

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #116 on: September 28, 2023, 08:21:23 AM »
“contextualize the money flowing in by comparing it to things like what percentage of the state’s revenue it makes up and how much the federal government gets back through its taxes on the state’s residents.”
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

"states according to their dependence on the federal government”
https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/

So much to digest there. I think the purpose of those articles was more to gain support for "their" side politically.

So things I would love to have broken down a little more...

These were made using data in 2020 and 2022, I think. I would be nice to use a larger data set. California doesn't have bad wildfires every year, and Florida and Louisiana don't have a bad hurricane every year.

The second article shows a correlation between State GDP per capita and federal funding received. It would be nice to see a "score" that is standardized by GDP/Cap.

I wonder if these data sets would tell a different story.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2023, 08:41:17 AM »
“contextualize the money flowing in by comparing it to things like what percentage of the state’s revenue it makes up and how much the federal government gets back through its taxes on the state’s residents.”
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

"states according to their dependence on the federal government”
https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/

So much to digest there. I think the purpose of those articles was more to gain support for "their" side politically.

So things I would love to have broken down a little more...

These were made using data in 2020 and 2022, I think. I would be nice to use a larger data set. California doesn't have bad wildfires every year, and Florida and Louisiana don't have a bad hurricane every year.

The second article shows a correlation between State GDP per capita and federal funding received. It would be nice to see a "score" that is standardized by GDP/Cap.

I wonder if these data sets would tell a different story.

Not surprising that New Mexico is #5 and #1 on those lists. The federal government is the main driver of the economy across the state. 2 National Labs (each with 10,000+ highly paid contractors plus thousands of DoE employees for oversight), 3 Air Force Bases (each with thousands of supporting civilians and contractors), and 1 1/2 Army Bases (Fort Bliss is just over the border in El Paso, TX but extends north into New Mexico), a large portion of the land area under federal control (National Forest, National Monuments, BLM, etc.), plus a large Native American population with a significant presence from the BIA.

Not to mention a generally poor and rural population which typically receive more federal spending per capita than richer urban populations. Basically these lists seem to correlate more strongly with how poor a state is which means the citizens are contributing fewer tax dollars and receiving more transfer payments based on that same low income. $50K/year may not go far in Hawaii, California, or New York but from a federal perspective it's still above the threshold for a lot of transfer payments. Meanwhile, $25k may be enough to survive on in a rural area but would qualify you for transfer payments, and keep you from paying any significant federal income tax.

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2023, 09:50:45 AM »
“contextualize the money flowing in by comparing it to things like what percentage of the state’s revenue it makes up and how much the federal government gets back through its taxes on the state’s residents.”
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

"states according to their dependence on the federal government”
https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/

This isn't a state vs. state issue, but rather high risk vs. low risk areas. Note the title of this thread (and article) is specifically about cities.

I live in Idaho, no coastal risks for me. If someone wants to live on the beach or in a hurricane zone that's fine, just don't ask me to subsidize that person's willful assumption of risk. Similarly, there are folks in my state that really want to live away from the city *in* the forest. Again, that's fine, but don't jack up my taxes or insurance rates to help pay for their choice.

ChpBstrd

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2023, 10:36:12 AM »
“contextualize the money flowing in by comparing it to things like what percentage of the state’s revenue it makes up and how much the federal government gets back through its taxes on the state’s residents.”
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

"states according to their dependence on the federal government”
https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/

This isn't a state vs. state issue, but rather high risk vs. low risk areas. Note the title of this thread (and article) is specifically about cities.

I live in Idaho, no coastal risks for me. If someone wants to live on the beach or in a hurricane zone that's fine, just don't ask me to subsidize that person's willful assumption of risk. Similarly, there are folks in my state that really want to live away from the city *in* the forest. Again, that's fine, but don't jack up my taxes or insurance rates to help pay for their choice.
The problem is they have more votes than you. And their politicians can point at you and say "aren't you heartless!".

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #120 on: October 16, 2023, 06:45:11 AM »
An interesting article on managed retreat at the Outer Banks: https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/10/16/obx-rodanthe-house-collapse-ocean-bought/ (sans paywall: https://archive.ph/iRZ1K)

Thankfully taxpayer funds were not used for these buyouts, though I wonder if this can really scale. What I find most shocking (though maybe not) is that both of these properties were recently sold in 2021 despite having major issues. The amount of money people are spending to move houses and septic systems is nuts. It really seems like property owners are banking on the state or federal government bailing them out by spending unending millions to nourish the beach.

2sk22

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2023, 08:46:47 AM »
An interesting article on managed retreat at the Outer Banks: https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/10/16/obx-rodanthe-house-collapse-ocean-bought/ (sans paywall: https://archive.ph/iRZ1K)

Thankfully taxpayer funds were not used for these buyouts, though I wonder if this can really scale. What I find most shocking (though maybe not) is that both of these properties were recently sold in 2021 despite having major issues. The amount of money people are spending to move houses and septic systems is nuts. It really seems like property owners are banking on the state or federal government bailing them out by spending unending millions to nourish the beach.

I wonder how the person who bought the house in 2021 could get insurance. It seems to me that the outer banks of NC ought to be completely uninsurable.

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #122 on: October 16, 2023, 09:50:08 AM »
An interesting article on managed retreat at the Outer Banks: https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/10/16/obx-rodanthe-house-collapse-ocean-bought/ (sans paywall: https://archive.ph/iRZ1K)

Thankfully taxpayer funds were not used for these buyouts, though I wonder if this can really scale. What I find most shocking (though maybe not) is that both of these properties were recently sold in 2021 despite having major issues. The amount of money people are spending to move houses and septic systems is nuts. It really seems like property owners are banking on the state or federal government bailing them out by spending unending millions to nourish the beach.

I wonder how the person who bought the house in 2021 could get insurance. It seems to me that the outer banks of NC ought to be completely uninsurable.

I agree. Houses on barrier islands should stop being a thing. It makes no sense for any entity to insure these. Eliminate insurance and buyers have to pony up all-cash, which would crash prices and expose the full liabilities. Paying, say, $200k cash for a beach house could mean you lose all your equity plus cleanup costs. When properties are near or below zero value is when it makes sense for conservationists to step in and make purchases, which would help this entire process scale.

Yet it seems people just can't help themselves. The desire for beach houses has too much emotional pull, like the family that bought knowing it was a problem, but really really really wanted the fond beach memories for their kids.

frugalecon

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #123 on: October 16, 2023, 10:15:59 AM »
I haven’t read this thread completely, so maybe this has been covered, but I have a hard time believing that at some point there won’t be a massive pivot to geoengineering to address what is going on. So much climate change is baked in the cake already, and we are effectively geoengineering in a completely haphazard way. Won’t some people being affected start demanding that someone, anyone take steps to reverse the effects? (If you read near-future science fiction, Neal Stephenson’s “Termination Shock” addressed this possibility…)

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #124 on: October 16, 2023, 10:35:53 AM »
I haven’t read this thread completely, so maybe this has been covered, but I have a hard time believing that at some point there won’t be a massive pivot to geoengineering to address what is going on. So much climate change is baked in the cake already, and we are effectively geoengineering in a completely haphazard way. Won’t some people being affected start demanding that someone, anyone take steps to reverse the effects? (If you read near-future science fiction, Neal Stephenson’s “Termination Shock” addressed this possibility…)

IMO this is wishful thinking. If we assume for the sake of argument that we can geoenginer the global climate in a cost effective way (a huge assumption), the bigger issue is that this will not simply reverse the current effects of climate change.

Instead, geoengineering the climate will solve some problems at the expense of creating others. This is just how large dynamic systems work. For example, maybe we can lower temperatures in polar regions to halt sea level rise. But perhaps this has the unintended side effect of aridification of large areas of Asia. This has huge ethical and geopolitical implications.

frugalecon

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #125 on: October 16, 2023, 10:46:54 AM »
I haven’t read this thread completely, so maybe this has been covered, but I have a hard time believing that at some point there won’t be a massive pivot to geoengineering to address what is going on. So much climate change is baked in the cake already, and we are effectively geoengineering in a completely haphazard way. Won’t some people being affected start demanding that someone, anyone take steps to reverse the effects? (If you read near-future science fiction, Neal Stephenson’s “Termination Shock” addressed this possibility…)

IMO this is wishful thinking. If we assume for the sake of argument that we can geoenginer the global climate in a cost effective way (a huge assumption), the bigger issue is that this will not simply reverse the current effects of climate change.

Instead, geoengineering the climate will solve some problems at the expense of creating others. This is just how large dynamic systems work. For example, maybe we can lower temperatures in polar regions to halt sea level rise. But perhaps this has the unintended side effect of aridification of large areas of Asia. This has huge ethical and geopolitical implications.

I probably should have been more explicit that I didn’t think that geoengineering will be a “get out of jail free” card. It seems unlikely that we will go back to the status quo ante, at least in my lifetime (or the lifetime of anyone currently alive?). I just think if things get bad enough there will be a DEMAND for something along these lines. And perhaps we will develop some systems that slow down some effects. Who knows how effective it will be?

AnotherEngineer

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #126 on: October 16, 2023, 12:56:51 PM »
An interesting article on managed retreat at the Outer Banks: https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/10/16/obx-rodanthe-house-collapse-ocean-bought/ (sans paywall: https://archive.ph/iRZ1K)

Thankfully taxpayer funds were not used for these buyouts, though I wonder if this can really scale. What I find most shocking (though maybe not) is that both of these properties were recently sold in 2021 despite having major issues. The amount of money people are spending to move houses and septic systems is nuts. It really seems like property owners are banking on the state or federal government bailing them out by spending unending millions to nourish the beach.

I wonder how the person who bought the house in 2021 could get insurance. It seems to me that the outer banks of NC ought to be completely uninsurable.

I agree. Houses on barrier islands should stop being a thing. It makes no sense for any entity to insure these. Eliminate insurance and buyers have to pony up all-cash, which would crash prices and expose the full liabilities. Paying, say, $200k cash for a beach house could mean you lose all your equity plus cleanup costs. When properties are near or below zero value is when it makes sense for conservationists to step in and make purchases, which would help this entire process scale.

Yet it seems people just can't help themselves. The desire for beach houses has too much emotional pull, like the family that bought knowing it was a problem, but really really really wanted the fond beach memories for their kids.

Wow, those buyouts seem more like bailouts. Both houses inundated by the ocean and one gets $90,000 more than they bought it for 2 years ago? I'm not sure what detailed appraisal they used, but it sounds like it didn't account for future value which is steeply trending towards zero. $260k for a house you can't live in now or in the foreseeable future, if it even remains upright? Are they getting other offers? Of course they jumped at it! That all makes me mad, even as a coastal NC resident. Just because it is oil royalties and not expressly tax dollars doesn't help.

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #127 on: October 17, 2023, 05:56:24 AM »
Just got my homeowner's insurance bill, $4327 for a 1560 sq ft house on a tiny lot. Northeast Florida but not in a flood zone. 33% increase from last year, and they've already told me I have to replace my (not leaking) roof in order to renew next year. I will pay it this year but I think I need to seriously consider self-insuring next year.


One the one hand, count yourself lucky to find an insurer, even at $2.75/sq ft.  On the other hand, consider if you want to be there long term. We live in a PNW forest fire and mega-earthquake risk zone (and in fact had a lightning fire in our back yard this summer) but pay about $0.20/sq ft for full coverage.

ChpBstrd

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2023, 08:18:35 AM »
Just got my homeowner's insurance bill, $4327 for a 1560 sq ft house on a tiny lot. Northeast Florida but not in a flood zone. 33% increase from last year, and they've already told me I have to replace my (not leaking) roof in order to renew next year. I will pay it this year but I think I need to seriously consider self-insuring next year.
One the one hand, count yourself lucky to find an insurer, even at $2.75/sq ft.  On the other hand, consider if you want to be there long term. We live in a PNW forest fire and mega-earthquake risk zone (and in fact had a lightning fire in our back yard this summer) but pay about $0.20/sq ft for full coverage.
I'm at $0.554/sq ft for full coverage with a $10k deductible in an area with tornado and hail risk, but no wildfire, earthquake, flood, or hurricane risk. $713 per year.

ETA: My policy is full replacement on the roof, which means if the roof is damaged for any reason they pay the full replacement cost rather than pro-rating the age of the old roof and giving me the remaining value of what was damaged. This is one way not all policies are an apples-to-apples comparison.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 09:04:35 AM by ChpBstrd »

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #129 on: October 17, 2023, 08:55:40 AM »
Just got my homeowner's insurance bill, $4327 for a 1560 sq ft house on a tiny lot. Northeast Florida but not in a flood zone. 33% increase from last year, and they've already told me I have to replace my (not leaking) roof in order to renew next year. I will pay it this year but I think I need to seriously consider self-insuring next year.
One the one hand, count yourself lucky to find an insurer, even at $2.75/sq ft.  On the other hand, consider if you want to be there long term. We live in a PNW forest fire and mega-earthquake risk zone (and in fact had a lightning fire in our back yard this summer) but pay about $0.20/sq ft for full coverage.
I'm at $0.554/sq ft for full coverage with a $10k deductible in an area with tornado and hail risk, but no wildfire, earthquake, flood, or hurricane risk. $713 per year.

We're at $0.58/sq ft for full coverage in an area with very low risk (no earthquakes, low wildfire risk, not in flood plain, low extreme weather risk).

There's a story in the WSJ today about folks in Florida moving due to very high insurance costs: https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/home-insurance-is-so-high-in-this-florida-town-residents-are-leaving-bb00c96f (w/o paywall: https://archive.ph/hMxYe )
Quote
While they found a better rate from another insurer, at about $33,000 it is still nearly double what they paid last year. The family this month listed the home for sale with an asking price of nearly $3.5 million after determining that insurance costs made staying there too expensive. Others in Flamingo Park told The Wall Street Journal they are drawing the same conclusion.

“The for-sale signs are going up left and right,” James said of the neighborhood.

AnotherEngineer

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #130 on: October 17, 2023, 09:10:09 AM »
Surprisingly, I'm in the same ballpark in Coastal NC as Florida despite seemingly being somewhat lower risk. I'm 3 miles inland at 40 feet and outside any flood zone. My insurance is a typical $0.58 square foot, but then the required wind and hail insurance through the state adds $1900/year. My costs scale with that $3.5M FL house, so maybe they are overreacting?

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #131 on: October 17, 2023, 09:49:28 AM »
Surprisingly, I'm in the same ballpark in Coastal NC as Florida despite seemingly being somewhat lower risk. I'm 3 miles inland at 40 feet and outside any flood zone. My insurance is a typical $0.58 square foot, but then the required wind and hail insurance through the state adds $1900/year. My costs scale with that $3.5M FL house, so maybe they are overreacting?

I think the issue is that most people buy as much house as they can "afford" so a lot of folks are already on the edge financially. If insurance was $10k/year when they first bought the $3.5M house, an increase to $30k could be very difficult.

bacchi

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2023, 03:51:31 PM »
Surprisingly, I'm in the same ballpark in Coastal NC as Florida despite seemingly being somewhat lower risk. I'm 3 miles inland at 40 feet and outside any flood zone. My insurance is a typical $0.58 square foot, but then the required wind and hail insurance through the state adds $1900/year. My costs scale with that $3.5M FL house, so maybe they are overreacting?

Check out further down that article. One couple is/was paying $10k for the premiums on their 1000 ft2 cottage. Ouch.

Here's a similar article from a few months ago: https://www.tampabay.com/news/real-estate/2023/08/14/soaring-home-insurance-costs-are-pushing-these-families-out-florida/

The Tampa Bay Times article quotes people worried about premiums in the low thousands, which makes me think that FINate is correct: people stretch to buy a house and even a $500-1000 unexpected increase puts a real dent in their budgets. $1800 seems reasonable for a ranch with a pool overlooking an intracoastal waterway.

FINate

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #133 on: November 16, 2023, 05:42:04 PM »
This is also happening in areas at high risk for wildfire in CA.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fire-prone-california-homeowners-left-insurance-companies-drop/story?id=104946925

Increasing premiums 10x to reflect the actual risks due to climate change is one way of pricing in the real cost of living in the forest. I sorta feel bad for the people now looking at $13k/year for premiums. Yet on the other hand, this whole "WE WILL REBUILD! $TOWN STRONG" mentality needs to end. When fire rips thought a community like Paradise, people need to take the hint and use their insurance proceeds to move someplace more reasonable.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #134 on: November 16, 2023, 08:02:29 PM »
The problem is most folks have no clue what a direct hit from a hurricane really does to an area. And it gets even more nuanced once you realize how localized the maximum damage from a direct hit will be. In 2018 when Florence was 24 hours from landfall in Wilmington it was still a Category 4. We drove away from our friends' house not expecting to have a home to come back to. I mean pushed the car against the inside of the garage door for extra reinforcement and put any truly valuable items inside the car where another set of weather seals would hopefully keep any water out.

There's no reasonable way to insure against an event like that. The way people did it in the past was not to build big homes with high end materials because they knew that at some point the area was going to get hit. Common sense has gone out the window.

We're just north of Wilmington and paying $1.00 per square foot for fire insurance, liability, and wind & hail combined. 2% deductible for a named storm which comes out to about $5,000 based on our insured value. Not sure exactly how much of that is just the wind & hail piece. Probably about 2/3 of it. $1,000 a year is certainly worth protection against the kind of damage I've seen and now know can happen but for some of the areas where insurance costs are out of control, at some point it has to start hitting the home's value.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2023, 08:25:46 AM by Mr. Green »

ChpBstrd

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #135 on: November 16, 2023, 08:11:00 PM »
There's no reasonable way to insure against an event like that. The way people did it in the past was not to build big homes with high end materials because they knew that at some point the area was going to get hit. Common sense has gone out the window.
There's the solution again. Build modest homes in tropical/subtropical areas out of concrete, roof and all. Put some metal shutters on the windows and then go without insurance. Look at how houses that survive hurricanes are build throughout the Caribbean. It's not with sticks, plastic, and flakes of petroleum.

We're going through a lot of this anguish because we never learned from the 3 little pigs.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #136 on: November 16, 2023, 10:04:27 PM »
This is also happening in areas at high risk for wildfire in CA.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fire-prone-california-homeowners-left-insurance-companies-drop/story?id=104946925

Increasing premiums 10x to reflect the actual risks due to climate change is one way of pricing in the real cost of living in the forest. I sorta feel bad for the people now looking at $13k/year for premiums. Yet on the other hand, this whole "WE WILL REBUILD! $TOWN STRONG" mentality needs to end. When fire rips thought a community like Paradise, people need to take the hint and use their insurance proceeds to move someplace more reasonable.


You could argue the greater Pacific Northwest should be redlined except in safe concrete cities.  However, most of the fires in recent years have been linked back to electrical lines.  If PG&E and others (who have lost some big lawsuits on this already) would keep their lines clear of trees, it would make a big difference.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2023, 06:44:07 AM »
This is also happening in areas at high risk for wildfire in CA.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fire-prone-california-homeowners-left-insurance-companies-drop/story?id=104946925

Increasing premiums 10x to reflect the actual risks due to climate change is one way of pricing in the real cost of living in the forest. I sorta feel bad for the people now looking at $13k/year for premiums. Yet on the other hand, this whole "WE WILL REBUILD! $TOWN STRONG" mentality needs to end. When fire rips thought a community like Paradise, people need to take the hint and use their insurance proceeds to move someplace more reasonable.


You could argue the greater Pacific Northwest should be redlined except in safe concrete cities.  However, most of the fires in recent years have been linked back to electrical lines.  If PG&E and others (who have lost some big lawsuits on this already) would keep their lines clear of trees, it would make a big difference.

Fire danger in the forested areas of the PNW is certainly much higher with climate change. Wildfires are mostly a function of fuel and weather. If PG&E lines don't start fires, then it will be lightning, sparks from a passing car, or whatever. The west needs a lot more controlled burns, and a ton more forest thinning in the WUI. Those choosing to live in high fire danger should shoulder most of these costs. Or, don't, and pay for it in higher insurance premiums. Either way, the real cost of living in the forest will eventually make itself known.

bacchi

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2023, 09:32:25 AM »
This is also happening in areas at high risk for wildfire in CA.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fire-prone-california-homeowners-left-insurance-companies-drop/story?id=104946925

Increasing premiums 10x to reflect the actual risks due to climate change is one way of pricing in the real cost of living in the forest. I sorta feel bad for the people now looking at $13k/year for premiums. Yet on the other hand, this whole "WE WILL REBUILD! $TOWN STRONG" mentality needs to end. When fire rips thought a community like Paradise, people need to take the hint and use their insurance proceeds to move someplace more reasonable.

About 95% of the buildings burned in Paradise. That's a hint as big as a flashing neon billboard at the end of Main Street.

AnotherEngineer

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2023, 11:10:13 AM »
The problem is most folks have no clue what a direct hit from a hurricane really does to an area. And it gets even more nuanced once you realize how localized the maximum damage from a direct hit will be.

Related to this, I think many folks, including me, are accustomed to thinking about rebuilding a house with insurance that had an isolated disaster, like a house fire. The cost, contractor and materials availability and more get thrown out the window when your whole neighborhood needs new roofs, let alone major damage to most of a city. See Katrina rebuild timelines and FL reconstruction. Plus in that case, the land value may plummet temporarily or permanently, making selling difficult. Land may be a significant portion of the sales cost but not included in insurance.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #140 on: November 19, 2023, 09:21:00 AM »
With homes in Louisiana and Florida our largest individual cost per year is insurance after the mortgage on the Florida property. My parents have lost homeowners insurance on their Louisiana home and have been forced to citizens at a very expensive rate. In Florida there are people paying $1000 a month or more for insurance now. Many of them long retired at a fixed rate. Some of them living ok on pensions and SS when their insurance was $1000 a year. Property taxes have also greatly increased in Florida. Long term residents with homestead exemption are ok. Snowbirds or new comers are going to face higher taxes. There is a point where lower income taxes will fail to offset the higher property taxes. I think Florida's appeal for retirement will be impacted. We bought our home really cheap in 2018 during a real estate recession in Florida. I really don't care about the increased cost because we can afford to go bare. Our mortgage is only 135K but at 4% It's not the smartest move to pay off a 4% mortgage, but if our rates go to $1000 a month for insurance maybe so.
It's a snobby thing to say, but Florida for my perspective may get much nicer after housing costs increase due to population reduction.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #141 on: November 19, 2023, 11:31:43 AM »

It's a snobby thing to say, but Florida for my perspective may get much nicer after housing costs increase due to population reduction.


Florida population has been growing exponentially. Growth may slow once overall living costs reach par with other states, but it will still draw people due to mild weather and amenities, so the growth rate may slow, but unlikely to go negative without something dramatic happening.  California is wildly expensive compared to almost any other state, yet it still grows population most years. Same for Hawaii.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #142 on: November 19, 2023, 01:12:02 PM »
Fire danger in the forested areas of the PNW is certainly much higher with climate change. Wildfires are mostly a function of fuel and weather. If PG&E lines don't start fires, then it will be lightning, sparks from a passing car, or whatever. The west needs a lot more controlled burns, and a ton more forest thinning in the WUI. Those choosing to live in high fire danger should shoulder most of these costs. Or, don't, and pay for it in higher insurance premiums. Either way, the real cost of living in the forest will eventually make itself known.

I'm a climate change maxi, but I don't think the fires have much to do with climate change.    More of a combination of decades of fire suppression, increased rural development, and lax building codes.   Prior to about 1910 there had been fires in Washington State 20 times the size of the Camp Fire. 

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #143 on: November 19, 2023, 03:02:26 PM »
Fire danger in the forested areas of the PNW is certainly much higher with climate change. Wildfires are mostly a function of fuel and weather. If PG&E lines don't start fires, then it will be lightning, sparks from a passing car, or whatever. The west needs a lot more controlled burns, and a ton more forest thinning in the WUI. Those choosing to live in high fire danger should shoulder most of these costs. Or, don't, and pay for it in higher insurance premiums. Either way, the real cost of living in the forest will eventually make itself known.

I'm a climate change maxi, but I don't think the fires have much to do with climate change.    More of a combination of decades of fire suppression, increased rural development, and lax building codes.   Prior to about 1910 there had been fires in Washington State 20 times the size of the Camp Fire.

Yes, I agree, it's also about forest management which is why I mentioned "fuel." Admittedly I was rather vague about this aspect. But climate change is also a large-ish factor since warmer average temps dry the accumulated fuel faster, with makes for a longer fire season and more intense fires.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #144 on: November 19, 2023, 09:11:06 PM »
All this climate change information scares me! Just think the temperature climbing about a half of degree in the next 500-1,000 years or even dropping a half of degree in the next 500-1,000 years; how will this effect me-SCARY!

GilesMM

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #145 on: November 19, 2023, 09:20:12 PM »
All this climate change information scares me! Just think the temperature climbing about a half of degree in the next 500-1,000 years or even dropping a half of degree in the next 500-1,000 years; how will this effect me-SCARY!


More like 2 degrees the last 100 years and more on the way. Drought, floods, fires, storms, famine, loss of habitat, extinction, etc.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #146 on: November 20, 2023, 01:23:33 AM »

It's a snobby thing to say, but Florida for my perspective may get much nicer after housing costs increase due to population reduction.


Florida population has been growing exponentially. Growth may slow once overall living costs reach par with other states, but it will still draw people due to mild weather and amenities, so the growth rate may slow, but unlikely to go negative without something dramatic happening.  California is wildly expensive compared to almost any other state, yet it still grows population most years. Same for Hawaii.
That's a perfect demonstration of how short-sighted most people are and of how little hope there is of anything other than a purely reactive approach to dealing with the consequences of climate change.

And how there is no hope at all of change on the scale required to slow or halt the coming devastating climate change.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #148 on: November 20, 2023, 11:53:32 AM »
On track for 3C of global heating by the end of this century -

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/20/world-facing-hellish-3c-of-climate-heating-un-warns-before-cop28

I'm old, and used to think things wouldn't have got too bad by the end of my natural life span.  I no longer think that.  I think climate change will kill a significant proportion of people alive today.

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Re: America's coastal cities are a hidden time bomb
« Reply #149 on: November 20, 2023, 12:09:29 PM »
I'm old, and used to think things wouldn't have got too bad by the end of my natural life span.  I no longer think that.  I think climate change will kill a significant proportion of people alive today.

And for those who live in rich/developed countries, a lower standard of living is almost certainly on its way. A lot of wealth is in primary homes and that can be diminished rapidly by significantly increased insurance premiums.