Author Topic: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper  (Read 1595 times)

PayAttention

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Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« on: August 23, 2021, 03:51:21 PM »
I was approached by an acquaintance who is a house flipper to work for him. I'm interested in learning the business. At first I may work for free during any extra time I have. My question is at what point would my help become valuable enough for some type of payment for my work. How much should I ask for if I'm bringing in house flipping deals? I understand the education I'd be getting in itself is valuable but working for free, of course, isn't sustainable. I'm not sure all the ways I'd be adding value and at what point that value is enough to warrant compensation over the education I'd be receiving. Would it be a good idea to have him help me flip a deal on my own as I'm helping and learning the ropes from him? Just trying to figure out the win / win value exchange here.

soulpatchmike

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2021, 04:04:16 PM »
What "work" will you be doing for this acquaintance?

Omy

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2021, 04:04:32 PM »
He approached you, so I assume he sees value in you. I wouldn't work for free.

PayAttention

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2021, 06:39:54 PM »
What "work" will you be doing for this acquaintance?

Everything house flip related except actual physical remodel work.

He approached you, so I assume he sees value in you. I wouldn't work for free.

Wouldn't hands on work by an actual successful mentor be much more valuable than all the time I'd spend studying real estate books? Don't get me wrong, if I can negotiate some kind of commission pay right off the bat then of course I'm down but I've often heard the advice that one should do all they can to find a successful mentor and do anything you can for them even if that meant fetching coffee.

BlueHouse

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2021, 07:03:30 PM »
What "work" will you be doing for this acquaintance?

Everything house flip related except actual physical remodel work.

He approached you, so I assume he sees value in you. I wouldn't work for free.

Wouldn't hands on work by an actual successful mentor be much more valuable than all the time I'd spend studying real estate books? Don't get me wrong, if I can negotiate some kind of commission pay right off the bat then of course I'm down but I've often heard the advice that one should do all they can to find a successful mentor and do anything you can for them even if that meant fetching coffee.

I cannot imagine why anyone would consider working for free for any reason, ever.  If you feel you're getting more out of the deal than is fair, then work for them longer, even after you've become even more valuable.  But you should always be getting paid.

If on the other hand, you've asked to learn the business and they're allowing you to "shadow" them, then that might be a different thing. 

If you want to work on commission, then negotiate a non-recoverable draw, which means you get paid some amount (at least minimum wage) and then if you bring in some deal, you get paid the commission.  recoverable vs. non-recoverable means whether you have to pay back the wages you earned from straight work.  You should always get at least minimum wage and you have the possibility to make up to the full commission amount. 

PMJL34

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2021, 08:23:29 PM »
OP,

Are you in the 18-25 age group by chance? That could explain your circumstance better to us old geezers.

I'm still not sure what exactly you will be doing? Is it demo only? If so, you won't be learning much about flipping. You would just learn how to remove shit. I mean that's valuable, but it's hard labor and people pretty much ALWAYS get compensated to do that type of work.

More questions:
1. What makes you think he is a "successful" flipper?
2. Is he willing to open the books with you and show you numbers? If so, there could be value there.
3. Is he looking for a mentee? You may consider him a mentor, but he may just want muscles to demo a house. Clarifying your relationship may be helpful for you to avoid potential disappointment.

If he is offering to be your mentor and wants you to do demo work and doesn't want to pay you, you should politely decline. You can literally get hired tomorrow as a junk hauler/demo man for a decent wage.

former player

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2021, 03:51:06 AM »
Don't underestimate how much work, and how many different types of work flipping a house involves, other than the purely hands-on.  Evaluating properties is work: you need to know the current and potential value of each particular property in each particular neighbourhood.  Doing the deal on a purchase is work.  Choosing the options for the end product (single family?  apartment?  no. of bedrooms and bathrooms?  how open plan?  any historic or local features or needs?) is work.  Designing the end product is work.  Project-managing the hands-on is work.  Marketing the product is work.  Doing the deal on the sale is work.

I would ask this acquaintance to walk you through one of his current projects, starting with why he bought the property and for how much, how much the flip is costing, and what he expects to sell for.  That should give you a better idea of how he runs the business and a better idea of what you can learn from him.  It should also give you an idea of why he wants to bring you on board.

I agree with not working for nothing.  But you can work for something other than an hourly wage (profit share?) or for an hourly wage for some types of work and some other form of compensation for others.

Paging @Dicey who has done house flips.

soulpatchmike

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2021, 06:07:46 AM »
What "work" will you be doing for this acquaintance?

Everything house flip related except actual physical remodel work.
Since he contacted you about working with/for him.  What is his end game?  Just to teach you?  Partner? Pay you to be his #2?

theoverlook

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2021, 07:39:23 AM »
You shouldn't work for free, and he shouldn't want you to work for free. It's illegal. A for-profit venture can not have volunteer or otherwise unpaid labor.

But I do think working for him could teach you a lot. Maybe good, maybe bad stuff, that depends on him. But hands on experience is always valuable - but isn't a substitute for being paid in actual currency.

Dicey

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2021, 09:10:24 AM »
Paging @Dicey who has done house flips.
Thanks, former player. I saw this thread yesterday and wanted to ponder on it a bit... Since DH is the mastermind of our operation, I've been thinking about how he acquired his skills. Settle in, there's a Dicey story coming...(There's a TL;DR at the bottom.)

When he was in his early teens, his parents bought land in an upscale community and built an elevated *round* house. The infrastructure was steel. I recently found a picture of DH and his dad. In it, a young DH was on the ground welding, glistening with sweat, and his dad was casually sitting on the welder, watching him, which was pretty funny. They built and finished the house themselves and the family moved in.*

DH was always mechanically inclined, starting with bicycles, then mini-bikes and go-carts, then motorcycles, then cars, boats, etc. Fun fact #1, from his freshman year, he rode his motorcycle to the first and every day of his new high school. He said he always wore a full face helmut and parked behind the school where the teachers parked their motorcycles. Since students typically arrive after and depart before teachers, apparently nobody ever caught on.

He graduated, went to college for a year or so, but wasn't really into it. He started painting houses and earning very good money, so he finished up his classes and and opened a house painting business. He was later offered a job in a national chain paint store, and became a manager for several years. He then got lured away by a major painting contractor (Fun fact #2: he painted all the Noah's Bagels in NorCal, and several new Walmarts), then another, then went back out on his own. Eventually, he sold himself and his skills to a public utility, in exchange for sweet benefits and nice retirement package. He got to paint really big things and naturally, kept painting houses on the side.

Along the way, he married his high school sweetheart, bought a house and started a family. Their house was an older starter home, and his FIL was into flipping houses. They worked on DH's house and then DH started working on FIL's other projects on the side. He liked his FIL and helped him out for years. I'd say that's where he learned a lot of his DIY skills. He is also whip-smart and can teach himself anything. He has a love/hate relationship with YouTube. He learns a lot there, but hates it when people post stuff that's just plain wrong. He's also a whiz at digesting dense technical manuals. His reading comprehension is off the charts.

I had acquired my own DIY skills through sheer economic necessity. After years of always being a broke homeowner, I decided to hire a painting contractor for my most recent fixer house, because it was two story and had some crazy tall ceilings.  I had to be away on business when the house was ready to be painted. DH was a friend of a friend, and a licensed contractor, who preferred to paint empty houses. Because it was his side gig, his overhead was low and his price fit my shoestring budget. I returned to a beautifully painted house, and happily moved in.

A decade later, when I decided to recarpet and paint my house, I knew who to call. By then, he was a widower with two young adult kids. Unexpectedly, sparks flew and we married after a whirlwind courtship.

Shortly after we wed, his dad died and we realized his mom had Alzheimer's so we knew we had to figure out different living arrangements. In short order, we fixed up/packed up/sold three houses, and bought another. It was a new-ish, custom built clown house, but the builder ran out of money and scrimped on some things near the end, so it needed a bit of work, too. Later, we bought two more houses where I already had a rental. We fixed them up, and rented them out.

Because we couldn't travel, we were looking for another local project. A realtor friend found a house that needed work, so we bought it, fixed it up for fun and sold it for a nice profit. Couple years later, she found a worse one and we did it again. Then the market went nuts and nothing has made sense since, so we're back to working on our primary home.

And that's how we acquired our DIY/flipping skills. My first thought when reading this thread yesterday was, "Hell NO!". Upon reflection, to a certain extent, that's kind of how we got where we are. There a million degrees of DIY and many ways to learn.

TL;DR - OP: If you decide to go this route, speak extensively with your friend. Spell things out and put them in writing! Make sure he has insurance, and get proof of coverage. My brother had an interlude between jobs and agreed to help out a contractor friend. Dude swore he had Worker's Comp Insurance. When my brother fell off a roof and broke his pelvis, he learned some very hard life lessons. Learn from his mistake.

*When DH's parents eventually sold the round house, the new owners built a conventional house on the other side of the property and converted the round house into an artist's studio. They landscaped heavily around the round house, and it's no longer visible unless you know exactly where to look. I'm sure the rest of the community prefers it that way.

ericrugiero

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2021, 09:32:33 AM »
My FIL has been painting for a guy who is flipping houses.  He talks a lot with the flipper and even walks through homes before purchase to discuss what repairs and modifications make sense.  Most of the walk through's have been free but the painting is paid. It's been a fairly productive arrangement for both because my FIL is getting an inside look at house flipping (which he wants to get into) and the flipper is getting a 2nd opinion as well as a fair price on painting. 

OP, you shouldn't be doing a ton of labor for free.  Walking through properties to see his thought process and offer a 2nd opinion should be free.  Significant value added contributions should be paid. Some volunteer labor while learning skills you don't currently have could be free or low paid. 

Boll weevil

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Re: Advice needed: Working for a house flipper
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2021, 04:28:50 PM »
What "work" will you be doing for this acquaintance?

Everything house flip related except actual physical remodel work.



That could mean a lot of things. On the not much effort end, he could be looking for an “assistant” to get coffee, make sure contractors show up, and open the door for deliveries. On the bucketloads of effort end, he could want a project manager to get quotes from and choose contractors; manage permits, schedule, and budget; and make decisions when the inevitable unexpected repairs arise. And there’s a whole range between those extremes.

Either way I’d expect to be compensated with more than just knowledge. In the assistant role, I would expect some sort of hourly or daily wage, but would consider non-monetary compensation like getting to live rent free in the place while it’s being remodeled. In the manager role, I would probably look for a (larger) hourly or daily wage, but would also consider asking for some percentage of the net.