Author Topic: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)  (Read 1683 times)

elaine amj

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Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« on: July 22, 2023, 09:32:13 AM »
DD22 is shopping for a car. Needs it very soon. Ideally looking for a small, fuel efficient hatchback as cargo space is important (she is in film and carries bulky heavy equipment regularly). Was eyeing the Kia Soul or the Chevy Spark.

Had a Honda Accord before and uncle is highly recommending a new Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla. Easy service, spare parts (since they are everywhere) and maintenance. And of course reliability.

Used prices seem bananas although her ideal is a cheap 5-7 yr old car as she hasnít graduated and is not sure where she will be. Our city is car-centric though and she cannot manage without one - especially travelling to film gigs.

She has about CAD$23k in cash saved up but can access more if necessary. Deal hunter uncle paid CAD$29,500 for his new Civic last year.

Mustachian thoughts and opinions?


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Joel

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2023, 03:45:19 PM »
Iím a fan of the new Honda civic hatchbacks. Used prices are insane right now, worth considering new.

Dave1442397

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2023, 05:09:27 AM »
With used prices being so crazy, she might be better off with a new car. There's a hatchback version of the Corolla that would make it easier to transport equipment - https://www.toyota.com/corollahatchback/

elaine amj

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2023, 08:50:47 PM »
Thanks - she is looking mostly at new now. The numbers just donít make sense for used.

Debating between a Chevy Trax $35k vs Kia Soul $37k vs Nissan Kicks $31k. Including all taxes and fees. The Kicks is cheaper than the other two. Athough the Kia is only so high because they are taking on $3k in warranties and rust protections and not taking no for an answer.


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AccidentialMustache

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2023, 11:07:12 PM »
My folks have a trax and I'm not super impressed with it compared to our honda fit. Part of it is that their trax is white... it drains water weird and is always very dirty, especially around the doors, and even somewhat "inside" the doors (outside of the inner seal, but in the door opening).

If they didn't discontinue the fit/jazz up north, that should be on your new list. It still should be for the used list, in any case. The magic seat is in fact magic -- the number of "inappropriate" things I've shoved in our fit, with all doors closed, is funny (55" tv (don't lay it down), 8' christmas tree (yes inside, plus passenger!), drum kit (still assembled, seats up), stove/range).

Ford's c-max may also be worth a look for the used list. Can't speak to reliability, although I think ford's hybrids are just toyota's tech so that should be fine? Very similar profile to the fit.

Personal opinion, but I would not buy a non-hybrid/non-plugin-hybrid new car right now. Used, a non-hybrid is fine IMO. An EV is not the right answer for everyone, but I'm pretty convinced a new gas-only car is the wrong answer -- or put another way, I suspect the depreciation curve on them is going to turn into a depreciation cliff at some point soon and I wouldn't want to be holding the bag.

Of course I say this as someone with a 14 year old honda fit that we bought new, so that maybe doesn't matter if you drive the car until it falls apart. Which ours is working on, because living in the salt belt means rust is starting from unreachable spots.

elaine amj

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2023, 05:02:03 AM »
We always drive our cars for 10+ years. So generally not looking too much into resale value.

Used cars are just so, so expensive right now. LOVE the idea of a Fit. But hard to stomach used car prices.

The Kia Soul is such a nice looking little car. But worth $5k more than the Nissan Kicks? I donít know.

Great feedback on the Trax - white and black are out of the question for her right now because of dirt showing as we donít wash the outside of our cars ever. So silver or blue or red.


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StarBright

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2023, 05:21:38 AM »
We just went through this decision in the last few months, looked at all the cars you have mentioned, and are picking up our new Corolla Hybrid today.

We found we were looking at a difference of a few thousand dollars between a new car and a car with tens of thousands of miles on it (that we would have to travel to get or ship to us).

We spent two weeks looking for used vehicles, and then put a  small deposit on a new car and waited. We kept looking for deals on used cars as we waited, because our deposit was refundable. We didn't find one.

This is in the US, so not sure how Canada is currently doing on new car stock - but there were waits for both corollas and civics where I live. I couldn't even get on a waitlist for an electric economy car.

Dave1442397

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2023, 05:52:30 AM »
Thanks - she is looking mostly at new now. The numbers just donít make sense for used.

Debating between a Chevy Trax $35k vs Kia Soul $37k vs Nissan Kicks $31k. Including all taxes and fees. The Kicks is cheaper than the other two. Athough the Kia is only so high because they are taking on $3k in warranties and rust protections and not taking no for an answer.


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Do some serious research on ownership costs if you plan on keeping any of those cars past the warranty period. Personally, I wouldn't even consider Chevy or Nissan at this point, and $3k extra in dealer add-ons for a Kia makes it an instant no for me.

For longevity, you really should stick to Toyota and Honda, and, as stated by others, get a hybrid if you can. We bought a Toyota Venza (hybrid) in 2021, and it's been getting around 37mpg most of the time.

I started keeping track of maintenance costs when I bought a used 2010 Cadillac CTS in 2011. It cost me $3,418.22 over six years, with some items I wouldn't expect to fail under 100k miles, including the alternator and (three) wheel bearings.

I traded it in on a 2011 Lexus LS 460 in 2017, and that car has cost me $888.17 in maintenance over almost six years. I need tires this year, but that will still put me at almost half the cost of owning a GM car.

elaine amj

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2023, 06:54:45 AM »
We have been spending about CAD$7k over 10 years on our ďcrappyĒ Dodge Caravan. Our first lasted 10 years, 2nd is still chugging 13 yrs later with 230,000km (142,000 miles) on it. It worked for us not to get a Toyota/Honda for 30-50% more money. (Granted our old Honda Accord lasted a few years longer).

She has saved up $23k (and can access more). Ideally she spends $10k but I would sooner she digs into her additional savings rather than spend too much on an over priced used car.

For my math, I amortize the cost + maintenance over the expected car lifespan to work out the per year cost. That way it is an easier comparison between new and used. I do think peace of mind and warranty with new is worth a fee extra thousand.

But really. She is 22. Absolutely nuts for her to drain her life savings to spend $40-50k on a new hybrid/EV. She doesnít need bells and whistles. Or a car that lasts 20 years. 10 years is plenty when she has no idea of future want/needs.

If the used market wasnít so crazy, sheíd get a 5-7yr old car that lasts another 3-5years so she doesnít have such a big commitment.

Really really wish the $20k Kia Rio was available. Itís discontinued next month and almost impossible to get. Plus parts availability in the future makes me nervous.

Other friends are recommending she size up to a mid-sized Ford Escape. To me, thatís way too much car for a young, single girl just starting out.


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AccidentialMustache

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2023, 06:22:01 PM »
I don't know about your used market, but I kbb'd the fit and it is back down to about pre-pandemic price. Now, this is three-plus years on where the depreciation curve nets out to "flat", but we were seeing 10k usd at the height of the used car panic pricing. It is back down to 5k and change now. That's not counting that it is working on being a rustbucket. It is also, as noted, 14 years old, although mechanically sound (<100k on the odo, it was our only car for 12 years and no we don't drive a lot). Feels like you should be able to get a used fit for 10k cad?

... That all said, what do chevy bolts go for up there? At one point they were down to 15k or less usd. I see 'em used within a couple hundred miles for under 20k usd and I'm in the midwest not the coasts. We didn't find the bolt comfortable to drive, which between that and the slow-ass "fast" charging they have is why we don't own one, but... when I pull up to a fast charger it is always a 20-something (usually guy) dozing in the driver's seat while the car charges for an hour-plus-some. Clearly some people find them a good deal, and the pricing seems decent. An EV would have to work for her though. Yes, chevy reliability, although with an EV there's less to go wrong mechanically overall.

I mean if she wants to look like she blew a wad, there's <20k usd tesla model S's listed around me. Sure, they're 2013s and probably under 200 mile range. But some lot of them have hilariously badly photoshopped tesla-in-front-of-mansion ascetic going so there's at least some laughs to be had.

Shinplaster

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2023, 08:38:40 AM »
I would caution you about buying any Nissan with a CVT engine - they are notorious for failure.   Lawsuits in the U.S. have resulted in replacement engines, etc., but the class action suit in Canada was very limited and not all that helpful.   Disclosure:  I own a Nissan 2014 Versa Note, which has been a decent car but now is starting to have issues.  Although my car was eligible for the Canadian lawsuit, I was excluded because my engine had not yet failed within the time frame decided on.  Of course that time frame was very short, and the engines tend to fail at the 7 year+ mark.

Have you looked at the Hyundai Venue?   Hyundai has its own issues with oil consumption, but the theft issue has been somewhat solved in new models I believe.   The Venue is very similar to the Kicks, but cheaper.   I have been eyeing this one as a potential replacement for my Note down the road - hopefully not until next year though.

Edited to add:   I live in the GTA region, and there are some Venues actually in stock here.   Used Fits or Toyota Corollas are either impossible to find, or ridiculously expensive.   
« Last Edit: July 29, 2023, 08:41:59 AM by Shinplaster »

elaine amj

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2023, 08:58:38 PM »
OooÖhave to check out the Hyundai Venue. Thatís the one dealer we havenít visited yet!


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Debts_of_Despair

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2023, 09:23:37 AM »
New Civic hatchback.  The basic trim levels have a very simple port injection engine that has a ~20 year track record as being a super reliable engine.  Iím getting 40 mpg, no batteries or plugging in needed.  Fold down the seats and you have as much room as a mid size SUV.  Top pick IMO.

Iíll also add that I sold my previous 10 year old Civic for over half of what I paid new so resale is definitely a factor.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2023, 09:26:22 AM by Debts_of_Despair »

SunnyDays

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2023, 05:07:51 PM »
Good luck finding any new foreign cars on the lot.  They pretty much have to be ordered, and then you wait for 6 - 12 months.
If she needs a car now, you're better off getting used, even if you have to pay more than is reasonable.  If you can find a used Toyota Matrix, they hold a surprising amount of stuff.  Even higher mileage wouldn't bother me - these cars go forever.

elaine amj

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2023, 10:34:41 PM »
All good options to keep in mind. With my motherís purchase of a used Toyota Camry, it takes the pressure off as DD can wait a few months if needed.


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Just Joe

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2023, 03:21:24 PM »
I'm a fan of Honda and we have owned about 10 Honda products - cars, SUVs, motorcycles, generators, lawn mowers, etc. Our current daily is a 24 year old CRV with 311K miles.

That said we've had good success with Chevy cars and SUVs as well.

Our friends and family have owned all sorts of brands and just about all of them have seen good service from good cars/SUVs/minivans. Drive it and maintain it like you care.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2023, 05:39:20 PM »
Should we assume she's hunting for bargains like a good mustachian with the breathing room a few months gives her?

Must_ache

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2023, 11:01:31 AM »
Another vote for the Civic, they may be a bit pricier but they are NICE.
I sold my 2017 Civic in Jan 2022 for a couple hundred more than I paid for it originally and got a pretty blue 2022 model for my 50th birthday which I will of course hang on to for quite some time. 
If used prices are high, may as well buy new.   

Wintergreen78

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2023, 06:13:07 PM »
Regarding hybrids: how do you typically use a car? If you commute/drive in town regularly they make a big impact. Often hybrids donít have as big a benefit for highway mileage.

I bought a 2019 model year VW golf new at the beginning of 2021 for $4,000 under MSRP. I lucked into the deal, and those are not available in the US any more. They do sell the Jetta, which gets 42 mpg highway and is ~$21,000 new.

Since I commute by bike and almost exclusively use my car for longer trips I decided a non-hybrid with 40+ mpg on the highway was the best option for me.

EchoStache

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2023, 05:36:58 PM »
Might be too late, but I'm hard pressed to find a better value than a 2019/2020 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV.

Low miles for around $20k.  Not sure what the tax incentives are in Canada, may be significant tax rebates.  My daughter got $1500 state and $4k federal rebates here.  Brings the net cost below $15k.

Car gets 50-60 mpg when not in EV mode.
30 miles all electric range i.e. no gas...covers her daily commute 100%.
Comes with a couple years remaining on bumper to bumper warranty.  Bunch of years left on the 10 year powertrain and battery/hybrid warranty.
Hardly ever have to change brakes due to regen braking.
All the latest safety features i.e. AEB, blind spot warning, lane keep assist, rear cross traffic alert.
Hatchback.

Buying a non PHEV doesn't seem to make any sense to me given rebates and incentives.....they end up costing less than similar, non hybrid or non plug in cars with worse fuel economy and no benefit of daily commute with zero gas.

All this for under $15k.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 05:48:21 PM by EchoStache »

RWD

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2023, 10:09:25 PM »
I would caution you about buying any Nissan with a CVT engine - they are notorious for failure.   Lawsuits in the U.S. have resulted in replacement engines, etc., but the class action suit in Canada was very limited and not all that helpful.   Disclosure:  I own a Nissan 2014 Versa Note, which has been a decent car but now is starting to have issues.  Although my car was eligible for the Canadian lawsuit, I was excluded because my engine had not yet failed within the time frame decided on.  Of course that time frame was very short, and the engines tend to fail at the 7 year+ mark.
A CVT is a type of transmission, not an engine... Avoiding a specific transmission won't avoid problematic engines. Though those transmissions have also been known to be problematic. In short, due diligence should be done in the research stage for any used vehicle purchase.

Shinplaster

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Re: Used vs New small car? DD22 is shopping m (Ontario)
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2023, 10:53:07 AM »
I would caution you about buying any Nissan with a CVT engine - they are notorious for failure.   Lawsuits in the U.S. have resulted in replacement engines, etc., but the class action suit in Canada was very limited and not all that helpful.   Disclosure:  I own a Nissan 2014 Versa Note, which has been a decent car but now is starting to have issues.  Although my car was eligible for the Canadian lawsuit, I was excluded because my engine had not yet failed within the time frame decided on.  Of course that time frame was very short, and the engines tend to fail at the 7 year+ mark.
A CVT is a type of transmission, not an engine... Avoiding a specific transmission won't avoid problematic engines. Though those transmissions have also been known to be problematic. In short, due diligence should be done in the research stage for any used vehicle purchase.

You are right - I mispoke.   It doesn't change my mind about Nissan CVTs though.   : )