Author Topic: MMM & Pope Francis  (Read 6818 times)

vislove1

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 5
MMM & Pope Francis
« on: September 08, 2015, 03:08:44 PM »
I would recommend reading the entire Encyclical Letter, but paragraphs 222-223 (starting on page 162) in particular are MMM to the core!

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2105201-laudato-si-inglese.html


sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8474
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2015, 07:55:31 PM »
I like the new pope.  He speaks to the issues that I feel religion should embrace.

Relevant portion excerpted for folks who can't be bothered to click and scroll, emphasis mine:
Quote
Christian spirituality proposes an alternative understanding of the quality of life, and encourages a prophetic and contemplative lifestyle, one capable of deep enjoyment free of the obsession with consumption. We need to take up an ancient lesson, found in different religious traditions and also in the Bible. It is the conviction that “less is more”. A constant flood of new consumer goods can baffle the heart and prevent us from cherishing each thing and each moment. To be serenely present to each reality, however small it may be, opens us to much greater horizons of understanding and personal fulfilment. Christian spirituality proposes a growth marked by moderation and the capacity to be happy with little. It is a return to that simplicity which allows us to stop and
appreciate the small things, to be grateful for the opportunities which life affords us, to be spiritually detached from what we possess, and not to
succumb to sadness for what we lack. This implies avoiding the dynamic of dominion and the mere accumulation of pleasures.

Such sobriety, when lived freely and consciously, is liberating. It is not a lesser life or one lived with less intensity. On the contrary, it is a way of living life to the full.

gobius

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 11:31:55 AM »
Those two paragraphs were great.

I'm reading the document right now (on Paragraph 27).  So far I like what he has to say; it's a pretty universal message that seems addressed to everyone, not just Catholics (which I can appreciate since I'm an atheist).

FLA

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 575
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2015, 10:44:41 PM »
I have to read this tomorrow but he is the first Pope I've ever respected and followed.  I believe he has an open, pure heart but it needs to be more open regarding women in ministry and LGBTQs. 

The last pope or the one before him, the one who had to have red Prada shoes and fancy vestments? He lost me completely just because of those shoes. A true disciple, the highest disciple,  of Jesus or God, would live modestly, reject the trappings, put the shoes on eBay and buy rice for 8000 people instead.  Ok, not that last part. But actually, yes that last part minus him putting up the listing himself.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7389
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2015, 05:57:09 AM »
The last pope or the one before him, the one who had to have red Prada shoes and fancy vestments? He lost me completely just because of those shoes. A true disciple, the highest disciple,  of Jesus or God, would live modestly, reject the trappings, put the shoes on eBay and buy rice for 8000 people instead.  Ok, not that last part. But actually, yes that last part minus him putting up the listing himself.

I think all popes wear the red shoes. And all popes (including this one) oversee the hoarding of enormous wealth in the church instead of selling it to buy rice. But the Catholic Church is not alone in that. The Mormon Church has something like $35 billion sitting in their accounts. I'm sure the Catholic Church has much more globally.

FLA

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 575
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2015, 07:25:49 AM »
I was being totally facetious but looked it up, the Pope is not dressing as Benedict did, and I like that. I am aware the Pope does not dole out rice.

http://theweek.com/articles/466105/7-fascinating-things-weve-learned-about-pope-francis
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 07:33:33 AM by FLA »

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4726
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2015, 08:02:08 AM »
I like the new pope.  He speaks to the issues that I feel religion should embrace.

This pope is almost too good! I'm afraid he's going to piss off too many establishment-consumerist-big-business sociopaths and get assassinated or something. I'm also honestly surprised the Catholic Church establishment was enlightened enough to have chosen him in the first place.

FLA

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 575
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2015, 08:20:45 AM »
 .
[/quote]

This pope is almost too good! I'm afraid he's going to piss off too many establishment-consumerist-big-business sociopaths and get assassinated or something. I'm also honestly surprised the Catholic Church establishment was enlightened enough to have chosen him in the first place.
[/quote]

me, too and I am a little suspicious because they did such a 180 on this

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4887
  • Age: 12
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2015, 09:22:17 AM »
The cynics can believe that the cardinals underestimated how much he would push for these issues after getting the top job.
The hopeful can believe that this was by design and they knew exactly what they were getting into.

Either way, there is a strong Francis effect that is leading the revival of the Church.

And yes, the Church is sitting on so much wealth that it's hard to quantify. Prime real estate in virtually every European town (usually smack in the city center), collectible art by the truckloads, an entire country that issues its own passports, just to name a few.

Oh, and some kickass brand recognition too: Apple has crowds line up for their new iPhones every couple months, the Church has had untold millions of followers doing it every Sunday for hundreds of years.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7389
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2015, 10:57:42 AM »
The cynics can believe that the cardinals underestimated how much he would push for these issues after getting the top job.
The hopeful can believe that this was by design and they knew exactly what they were getting into.

Either way, there is a strong Francis effect that is leading the revival of the Church.

And yes, the Church is sitting on so much wealth that it's hard to quantify. Prime real estate in virtually every European town (usually smack in the city center), collectible art by the truckloads, an entire country that issues its own passports, just to name a few.

Oh, and some kickass brand recognition too: Apple has crowds line up for their new iPhones every couple months, the Church has had untold millions of followers doing it every Sunday for hundreds of years.

The Vatican has its own bank. That occasionally gets involved in some shady money laundering activities too.

darkcait

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2015, 11:59:14 AM »
Thank you for posting this, OP. This is a very beautiful message that helps people see what is at the heart of the church.

FLA

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 575
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2015, 12:30:43 PM »
 
 
[/quote]

The Vatican has its own bank. That occasionally gets involved in some shady money laundering activities too.
[/quote]

I know the Vatican has amassed a huge amount of money but I don't understand why they are not spending some on failing churches, finding a way to get males to want to be priests and let women do it, let clergy marry, etc. Beats me. 

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7389
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 01:10:08 PM »

 

The Vatican has its own bank. That occasionally gets involved in some shady money laundering activities too.
[/quote]

I know the Vatican has amassed a huge amount of money but I don't understand why they are not spending some on failing churches, finding a way to get males to want to be priests and let women do it, let clergy marry, etc. Beats me. 
[/quote]
Religious institutions are all about tradition. And there are Bible verses that support women being subservient to men and never allowed to be over a man. When you start throwing away the stuff that they are supposed to believe in it makes people realize that there's a ton of selectivity about what parts of the Bible are being followed. So you can't really change very much and still keep your following.

And another tradition in the church is the accumulation of wealth. Popes used to be some of the richest and most powerful people in the world. The prohibition on priests marrying and priestal celibacy was designed to keep them from having descendants, and therefore keep them from having property be passed on to their heirs. Instead it all accumulated and concentrated to the church.

FLA

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 575
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 07:59:31 PM »
 
 
[/quote]

 
 
[/quote]
Religious institutions are all about tradition. And there are Bible verses that support women being subservient to men and never allowed to be over a man. When you start throwing away the stuff that they are supposed to believe in it makes people realize that there's a ton of selectivity about what parts of the Bible are being followed. So you can't really change very much and still keep your following.

And another tradition in the church is the accumulation of wealth. Popes used to be some of the richest and most powerful people in the world. The prohibition on priests marrying and priestal celibacy was designed to keep them from having descendants, and therefore keep them from having property be passed on to their heirs. Instead it all accumulated and concentrated to the church.
[/quote]

I do understand the tradition but I can't help but think that something like Vatican II can happen again and why isn't Pope Francis the perfect pope to be the change agent? I would think some big-ish changes would bring a ton of people back to the Church and the love of Pope Francis seems like the perfect time to do this.

never mind, reading up on Vatican II, taking head out of sand that there will ever be a Vatican III, lol

latinlover77

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2015, 01:04:54 PM »
.

This pope is almost too good! I'm afraid he's going to piss off too many establishment-consumerist-big-business sociopaths and get assassinated or something. I'm also honestly surprised the Catholic Church establishment was enlightened enough to have chosen him in the first place.
[/quote]

me, too and I am a little suspicious because they did such a 180 on this
[/quote]

His election was almost unprecedented: Pope Benedict stepped down from his position and thus led to the cardinals electing a new pope. I heard that a pope's own stepping down hasn't occured in about a century.

kite

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 630
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2015, 07:39:24 AM »
.

This pope is almost too good! I'm afraid he's going to piss off too many establishment-consumerist-big-business sociopaths and get assassinated or something. I'm also honestly surprised the Catholic Church establishment was enlightened enough to have chosen him in the first place.

me, too and I am a little suspicious because they did such a 180 on this
[/quote]

His election was almost unprecedented: Pope Benedict stepped down from his position and thus led to the cardinals electing a new pope. I heard that a pope's own stepping down hasn't occured in about a century.
[/quote]

More like 5 centuries.  Jorge Bergoglio was the runner up the year Ratzinger was elected, so it's not as unexpected as the press makes it out to be.  If you like Francis, thank Benedict for having the wisdom to step aside.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1263
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2015, 11:00:19 AM »
.

This pope is almost too good! I'm afraid he's going to piss off too many establishment-consumerist-big-business sociopaths and get assassinated or something. I'm also honestly surprised the Catholic Church establishment was enlightened enough to have chosen him in the first place.
[/quote]

me, too and I am a little suspicious because they did such a 180 on this
[/quote]

That's a common misconception - I don't blame people for thinking that.  JPII and Benedict also warned against the spiritual dangers of consumerism, but their writings didn't receive much publicity.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caritas_in_Veritate for Benedict's encyclical on environmental stewardship and consumerism.

And here is an excerpt from one of JPII's encyclical Sollicitudo Rei Socialis.

"A disconcerting conclusion about the most recent period should serve to enlighten us: side-by-side with the miseries of underdevelopment, themselves unacceptable, we find ourselves up against a form of superdevelopment, equally inadmissible. because like the former it is contrary to what is good and to true happiness. This super-development, which consists in an excessive availability of every kind of material goods for the benefit of certain social groups, easily makes people slaves of "possession" and of immediate gratification, with no other horizon than the multiplication or continual replacement of the things already owned with others still better. This is the so-called civilization of "consumption" or " consumerism ," which involves so much "throwing-away" and "waste." An object already owned but now superseded by something better is discarded, with no thought of its possible lasting value in itself, nor of some other human being who is poorer.

All of us experience firsthand the sad effects of this blind submission to pure consumerism: in the first place a crass materialism, and at the same time a radical dissatisfaction, because one quickly learns - unless one is shielded from the flood of publicity and the ceaseless and tempting offers of products - that the more one possesses the more one wants, while deeper aspirations remain unsatisfied and perhaps even stifled."


Although JPII and Benedict were very socially conservative (as is Francis, though his tone is more welcoming), they were both very aware of and passionate about the environment and social justice.  Look up Catholic Social Teaching.  I went to Catholic Universities (3 different ones) and that class is usually where conservative students find out their religion isn't as conservative as they thought.

To sum it up, I'd just say that Francis is echoing what his predecessors and Catholic tradition have been teaching.  We've just assumed for a number of reasons, maybe because conservative Catholics in the US liked JPII and Benedict, maybe because their encyclicals didn't get publicity, or maybe because their communication style was not as accessible; we've just assumed that Francis is the first Pope to start saying these things.  Some specific things yes, but in general, he's just been an incredible ambassador/representative of the Church.

I think his background as a pastor has contributed to his success.  Benedict was more of a theologian, which made him too easily dismissed as living in an ivory tower (which is a common evangelization problem the faith has - so many rules that are so hard for everyday people to live by).  Since Francis has spent so much time with everyday people, his tone reflects that.  He is able to communicate the teachings of the faith, especially the controversial ones, without coming off as judgmental.  Forgoing the luxurious trappings of his office during a time when inequality is so rampant was also a good move, and one that seemed completely genuine given his earlier life.

Seems to dovetail perfectly with what Pope Leo XIII wrote back in the 19th Century - 'Once the demands of necessity and propriety have been met, the rest that one owns belongs to the poor.' 



« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 11:03:21 AM by J Welterweight »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8474
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2015, 11:29:32 AM »
'Once the demands of necessity and propriety have been met, the rest that one owns belongs to the poor.'

What kind of a pinko commie bastard would say something like that?  The US has an entire political party devoted to squashing thoughts like that one in favor of nationalized protection of corporate profiteering.  Shockingly, most of the people in that party claim to read the same Book as that pinko you quoted, so clearly somebody is confused.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1263
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2015, 12:02:51 PM »
'Once the demands of necessity and propriety have been met, the rest that one owns belongs to the poor.'

What kind of a pinko commie bastard would say something like that?  The US has an entire political party devoted to squashing thoughts like that one in favor of nationalized protection of corporate profiteering.  Shockingly, most of the people in that party claim to read the same Book as that pinko you quoted, so clearly somebody is confused.

Yeah, it's quite a stark contrast to the beliefs and lifestyles of many Catholics.

However, Pope Leo XIII was a staunch opponent of both unbridled capitalism and socialism.  His encyclical Rerum Novarum ("Of Revolutionary Change") is the foundation of Catholic thought in regards to socio-economic issues.  Since the 1890s the Church has advocated for this middle ground between the free market and socialism, subsidiarity (a preference for local, rather than centralized law making), and the dignity of the human person.

If I had to give just one reason (and there are more, but my lunch break is only so long) for this incredible disconnect between Catholic teaching and Catholics' viewpoints, I'd point to the Cold War/Red Scare mentality and its enduring legacy.  While the Church has said both are flawed and neither is the answer, Americans learned that communism is evil and the opposite must be the answer.  Reagan became the new Jesus and the encyclicals largely gathered dust.

On another note, as a Catholic, I'm interested in reconciling Leo's quote with my financial goals. 

I actually don't seek early retirement, I just want to be able to raise a family while building furniture (and not feeling pressured to earn more than, say, $15,000 a year) instead of what I'm doing now.  I think the real challenge for me is keeping my eyes on the goal and not getting too caught up in addictive side of accumulation, which is just the means to the end. 

Rosy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2273
  • Location: Florida
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2015, 03:59:21 PM »
The right words, globally - politically correct. That's all - I don't believe any of it for a minute.
He knows what to say to fit in with the times - they are looking to survive as a church.
The only humane action the Catholic Church ever takes is when they are forced to, otherwise it is deny - block - deny - ignore.

They can keep their pretty words, I am not fooled, the few actions I've seen were too little and centuries too late.

The red Prada shoes are nothing but a part of the uniform, like the ring of a bishop. It is an honor for the house of Prada to supply the Pope with those shoes.
Personally, I don't care what pomp and circumstance the papal office prefers. The red Prada shoes are fine by me.


kite

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 630
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2015, 04:33:43 PM »
^
They aren't Prada. Never were.
This isn't the only thing in the media that has been either misleading or an outright lie.  I hear and read all kinds of distortions of what the church does and teaches from media outlets that are ignorant of and downright hostile towards Catholicism. 
The Church in the news is nothing like the one I've attended for almost 50 years.  Some of us don't find Francis particularly revolutionary or different from his predecessors.  What is different is that the mainstream media has a bit of a crush on him for what they think he's saying.  But his words are consistent with Paul VI, JP II, Benedict XVI, and they'll be consistent with the one who'll come next.  The press will probably want eviscerate that guy.
Anyways.. no benefit to the house of Prada.



goatmom

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 295
Re: MMM & Pope Francis
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2015, 09:11:48 PM »
What did the Catholic Church do a 180 on?  I like Pope Francis but he doesn't seem to be saying anything radically different than the guys before him said.  He just has a great way of putting it out there.   As for the prohibition on priests marrying - that has already been loosened with the entry of Anglican clergy into the Catholic Church.   My old town had two married priests.  One had kids.  One had kids and grandkids.