Author Topic: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board  (Read 1274 times)

Flyingstache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« on: April 01, 2024, 12:02:45 PM »
Hello!

My wife & I recently bought my grandparents house in Central OH. The house was built in 1984 & while my grandparents were healthy, was treated with the utmost care & looked like a showplace. However, the last 8yrs (& especially the last 4) the typical maintenance did not occur like normal.

The home has cedar siding & has not been painted in probably 8-10yrs & very much needs it. We have gotten three quotes from painters & they have been in the $7k-$9k range. We have also been told that the house will need to be painted every 5-7yrs. There are also some cracked boards that likely need replaced & that cost is not included in the quotes we have been given.

We also got a quote for replacing the siding with Hardie board siding. The thought with this is the look is replicated but hopefully less maintenance in the long term. The quote we received for removing the cedar siding, wrapping the whole house, & putting on the Hardie board was just under $25k.

Would love to know if anyone has experience with Hardie board & if it truly is maintenance free. Also would love to know about anyones experience with cedar siding.

We plan on being in this home for a long time raising our young & growing family. We want to honor my grandparents & the beautiful home they built but also want to limit any issues in the future & try to figure out what is the best plan financially.

Thanks so much for any insights & have a great day!

Miss Piggy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2024, 12:52:35 PM »
I can't comment on the cedar siding, but I can tell you my experience with Hardie board in my current two-year-old house. I live in a windy area, and this stuff, if not installed perfectly correctly, makes a crap-ton of noise as it rattles against itself in the wind. Ours was quite clearly not installed correctly the first time, as it should NOT make noise like this, but google something like "James Hardie rattling" and you'll see that we are far from alone in our experience.

Our builder came back and "corrected" the siding a year ago, but it has started rattling BAD again. It's only a matter of time before some of it works its way off the house. I contacted James Hardie, and they could not be bothered to advise me on any resolution or warranty claims. I re-contacted them to remind them that they have a builder who's about to build 600 more homes with their product incorrectly installed...no response.

I would NEVER in a million years pay $25,000 for this junk. Cannot recommend. I'd rather have shitty vinyl siding than James Hardie planks.

(That venting felt good. Thanks for asking!)

horsemom

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2024, 01:54:18 PM »
I've been in my current home for about 20 years.  When we purchased, it had original cedar shakes (home built in the 60's).  We spent many years maintaining - replaced one full side of the house with new cedar, etc.  It was an expensive proposition and eventually got to the point that a full residing was needed. 

We decided to go to Hardie Board about 7 years ago and have not looked back.  Zero maintenance and looks fantastic.  I could not be happier with the decision.  Of course, I'm sure that others have different experiences, but I highly recommend Hardie.

uniwelder

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Appalachian Virginia
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2024, 01:56:43 PM »
I built a garage and used Hardie Board on the gable ends of the roof.  The exterior walls were stuccoed, so not needed there.  I really liked it.  Paint adheres very well and didn't flake at all during the 10 12 years I lived there.  Before selling, I did repaint because it had faded, but it was completely bonded to the cement board.  No rattling noise that I've ever noticed.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 04:55:09 PM by uniwelder »

frizzywhiskers

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 144
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Canada
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2024, 01:57:21 PM »
I highly recommend hardie as well.  It does need to be installed by a qualified installer.  But itís an amazing product with zero maintenance and can be painted if you want in the future.

GilesMM

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1545
  • Location: PNW
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2024, 02:23:44 PM »
Cedar is marvelous and withstands weather extremely well but can be expensive.  You should get a quote for decent quality cedar as well as the Hardie since you are trying to compare the two. Cedar is probably about 30% more expensive.

brandon1827

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2024, 02:50:06 PM »
We built our house in 2016...so right at 8 years this month. We went with spray foam insulation in the walls, floors, & ceiling plus Hardie Board instead of doing brick. The Hardie has been fantastic. Zero problems with it so far, it looks amazing, & combined with spray foam we do pretty well on heating/cooling costs. We went with a color called Boothbay Blue. Combined with the white trim and gray stone it's very pleasing to look at and so far we haven't had to do any maintenance at all. There will probably come a time in the next decade that we paint it...but I don't think that'll be out of necessity, and more so because my wife will just want to.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7095
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2024, 04:29:01 PM »
We replaced our wood siding with Hardie planks (in the cove style to match the pine 105) 16 years ago. Like others have stated, paint adheres wonderfully. No problems with rattling.

It is brittle. A worker bonked a corner trim piece and part of the siding was gouged out. A piece of wood trim would've been slightly dented.

I'd install it again. Also highly recommend.

WayDownSouth

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 297
  • Age: 193
  • Location: Outside
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2024, 04:51:23 PM »
Call 3 siding companies and ask each of them what's the secret to installing Hardie to prevent rattling/slapping. It's an issue with the amount and spacing of nails. Also, improper overlap could be a secondary cause (although less likely). Hardie is different than aluminum or vinyl yet many contractors install it as if it were the same. It's heavy. It requires a proper installation spec to be strong and noiseless.

Stay away from any installer that can't tell you the correct answer. I used to do siding when I was a teenager and was taught this when installing Hardie on large 3-level homes directly on the very windy lake Michigan coastline.

sonofsven

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2024, 05:39:48 AM »
Well, I've installed a lot of both products. Hardie is a brand name of the product known as fiber cement siding, FC for short.

FC is, as advertised, good at holding on to paint.
Your cedar siding, being from the 40's, is likely of high quality. High quality cedar is still available, but it is quite expensive. High quality cedar, if maintained, can last a long time, as evidenced by your house. FC has not been around long enough to make that claim, but let's assume that it will also last a long time.

FC is not "maintenance free" as it will need to be repainted eventually. How often depends on exposure to weather, and other factors.

I've done two different FC replacement jobs for clients where the product failed and was replaced under warranty. The FC was crumbling and disintegrated. Three 12' pallets of material were dropped off in the driveway "for free" under warranty. There was no consideration given for removing the faulty material or installation of the new material. The clients paid for that out of pocket. I mention that just so you are aware of the possible limitations of the oroducts warranty. The new material also needed to be painted after installation, which was another expense for the client. Apparently there was a batch of bad material from the factory. I don't know how common that is, but the material is inexpensive compared to the installation costs.

Any siding that rattles is not installed properly. When installing products like this I always study their approved methods for installation to make sure that if there is a warranty claim they will not be able to claim my installation was at fault. These approved methods have changed over the years, and are also dependent on what wind zone you are in. I generally paper with #30 felt ("tar paper") then install 5/16"(approx) battens ripped from 2x stock (so 1.5" wide, approx) and nail them on every stud (which were marked prior to papering), creating an air space behind the siding. I work in a pretty wet and windy environment (Oregon coast). I haven't reviewed this article but this is basically what I'm talking about: (note the mention that the manufacturer has changed their recommended guidelines multiple times!)

https://www.bluejayrenos.ca/blog/2020/7/4/does-james-hardie-siding-require-a-rainscreen

Now, I obviously haven't looked at your house, but in general I would not remove good cedar to replace it with FC unless the cedar was so bad that there was no option but to remove it all and start over. I am also, admittedly, a bit of a purist when it comes to wood. I dislike many aspects of FC from an installers viewpoint (the weight, the dust, the waste product going into the landfill) which are not really your concern. I also believe, based on my experience, that it's easier to replace individual wood boards. The FC will just break if you try.

For new construction FC makes a lot of sense. On an existing house, it is less clear

Sorry I haven't definitively answered your question, but those are my thoughts on fiber cement siding.


ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6734
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2024, 07:11:47 AM »
Whatever happened to aluminum siding? Holds paint, can be repaired, relatively cheap, doesn't turn to microplastic powder like vinyl siding, etc. What wasn't to like?

sonofsven

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2024, 12:47:02 PM »
Whatever happened to aluminum siding? Holds paint, can be repaired, relatively cheap, doesn't turn to microplastic powder like vinyl siding, etc. What wasn't to like?

It dents if you look at it hard.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17583
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2024, 01:01:18 PM »
Whatever happened to aluminum siding? Holds paint, can be repaired, relatively cheap, doesn't turn to microplastic powder like vinyl siding, etc. What wasn't to like?

It dents if you look at it hard.
Snort. 
Signed:  Someone who was grounded as a teen for bouncing a soccer ball against my friend's home. A decade later that dent was still visible from the street.

brandon1827

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2024, 01:17:36 PM »
Not to mention it seems to go flying at the first sign of any kind of decent wind

WayDownSouth

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 297
  • Age: 193
  • Location: Outside
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2024, 05:45:35 PM »
Whatever happened to aluminum siding? Holds paint, can be repaired, relatively cheap, doesn't turn to microplastic powder like vinyl siding, etc. What wasn't to like?

I was wondering if it would cause issues with cellular reception. Ever step into a pole barn with your phone and watch it drop to 1 bar?

Bartlebooth

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 144
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2024, 08:24:57 AM »
Whatever happened to aluminum siding? Holds paint, can be repaired, relatively cheap, doesn't turn to microplastic powder like vinyl siding, etc. What wasn't to like?

I was wondering if it would cause issues with cellular reception. Ever step into a pole barn with your phone and watch it drop to 1 bar?

Put a Wi-Fi access point inside and enable Wi-Fi calling.

Shuchong

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2024, 12:22:02 PM »
I have cedar siding, varnished with what I assume is some sort of fancy spar varnish.  It is 30 years old, was re-varnished a few years ago, and looks gorgeous.  The cost to re-varnish was high (and borne by the prior owners, who were kind enough to leave me the records).  If memory serves, it was somewhere around 20k for a house of about 1900 square feet.  They paid a premium for the best painters in the area. 

My master plan is to keep the cedar and revarnish myself in 7-10 years.  It will involve ladders, but I'm fine with that.  After that, it's a matter of seeing how long the cedar holds out.  I'll cross that bridge when it comes to it. 

Are you willing to DIY?  It might be worth trying even a small section and seeing how it looks. 

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7465
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2024, 08:28:27 AM »
Whatever happened to aluminum siding? Holds paint, can be repaired, relatively cheap, doesn't turn to microplastic powder like vinyl siding, etc. What wasn't to like?

It dents if you look at it hard.

That's ok, vinyl cracks if you look at it hard. At the least the dent is waterproof.

No material is perfect. Weigh the pros and cons.

FINate

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3150
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2024, 09:00:16 AM »
We installed Hardie on a house some years ago. This was on a track home that came with horrible low-end siding that was failing in multiple places and had water intrusion issues. Hardie is a great product, though somewhat difficult to work with. Very durable. No issues with rattling. I did notice a drop or difference in sound insulation. Hardie combined with a complete Tyvek house wrap fixed all the ongoing water intrusion issues.

But in your case, I would not bother residing unless its experiencing systemic failure to the point that repairing is more than a reinstall. My rule of thumb for houses is to get as much life out of existing materials w/o compromising structural integrity or health and safety. So if you just have a few broken cedar boards, replace them, then re-caulk and paint. You probably don't need to repaint every 5-7 years (of course the painting companies are going to tell you otherwise). Just keep an eye on it and repaint when it starts to get powdery and/or flake.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 09:03:15 AM by FINate »

sonofsven

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2024, 06:11:58 PM »
Whatever happened to aluminum siding? Holds paint, can be repaired, relatively cheap, doesn't turn to microplastic powder like vinyl siding, etc. What wasn't to like?

It dents if you look at it hard.

That's ok, vinyl cracks if you look at it hard. At the least the dent is waterproof.

No material is perfect. Weigh the pros and cons.

I wouldn't use either one.

Taran Wanderer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2024, 08:23:08 PM »
12 years on Hardie.  No complaints.  Repainted once so far after 10 years, including some recaulking in a few interior and exterior corners.  No rattling in the wind.  I prefer the long planks - we must have 8Ē wide planks because thereís about 6Ē exposed.  On several gables we have the pseudo cedar shake Hardie sidingÖ the spiders LOVE it.  Itís also more difficult to paint.  I like the look but I wonít be doing it on the workshop that is being built this summer.

One upside of cedar is that you can stain it rather than paint it, and that can be a bit easier to apply, but other than that, for our wet, cool climate, Hardie has been fantastic.

Flyingstache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2024, 07:40:26 AM »
Thank you all for the wonderful responses & all the great information shared!

We have reached out to a few other installers to get quotes & information on how they would complete the project if we went with the Hardie board.

We also were recommended to a young painter (who comes highly recommended by multiple folks I trust) who is trying to grow his business. He would really like to get his name out there in our neighborhood & therefore is willing to do the job for less than normal & said he could do it for $4,500. It does seem like we would have to replace a few of the cedar boards that have cracked over the years so we need to get pricing on that.

My initial lean right now is likely to keep the cedar, replace the damaged boards, & use the young painter to reduce our costs right now since we have a few other home projects we would like to get done & we just found out my wife is pregnant with #4! So reducing any major costs has taken on a new level of importance!

Thanks so much for all your help!

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17583
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2024, 11:07:46 AM »
Even though it wasn't directly asked, I'm going to write this in here:

Don't paint cedar siding. 

Wood expands/contracts with temperature and moisture.  Paint, even applied perfectly at the factory/mill, will peel and crack with time.  Then the *only* option you have to make it look good again is to scrape and re-paint, which costs $$$ to hire out or many many hours to do yourself.,

Instead, go with a wood stain.  If you want the look of paint you can get something close by going with an "opaque" stain (which isn't truly opaque, but lets the grain show through).  Pay the money up front to have it down by the mill - two coats on all sides - and it will look great for a decade or more and when you want a refresh it's pretty simple to re-stain (no paint scraping needed).

Hardie-board / cement siding you can actually paint because it doesn't expand/contract like wood .



Or.... just embrace that wood is its own beauty and will weather with time, no additional color needed.

Mr. Green

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4535
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Wilmington, NC
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2024, 03:22:31 PM »
Where I live (Coastal North Carolina), Hardie Board is commonly used for more upscale homes. I've heard people say that it gets painted at install and that will last for 10-20 years without needing maintenance. Not true if you care about how it looks. There is a caulk-type product that is applied to the seams where the boards meet and nail holes. There are homes in the upscale community next door that are only a couple years old and already I can see color variation between the siding and the places where the Hardie caulk product was applied. You can also see subtle differences in sheen in the right light because the paint is sprayed on and it's never applied perfectly even across the whole house. The more sun exposure, the worse the color difference gets with some of the colors I've seen. I know vinyl siding is not popular for it's look but there's something to be said for it looking the exact same 25 years later. These houses next to us will have been painted 3 times or more to achieve the same look of uniformity. Most homeowners won't do that, they'll just let the look fade.

I don't know what the demands of cedar siding are but that's my experience with Hardie Board.

brandon1827

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2024, 07:18:24 AM »
That's interesting...and sounds like that area just has a shitty installer. If they got that sloppy with the adhesive and didn't do a decent paint job, then yeah, I'm sure it stands out. Like with anything, you have to make sure you've got someone that does quality work or it will turn out bad. I guess we may have gotten lucky, but after 8 years ours doesn't show any variations and there aren't many spots where you can see the caulk so it still looks really good. Personally, I'd take needing to paint once or twice in my lifetime for the added security, insulation properties, and sturdiness of Hardie over vinyl any day of the week.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6734
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2024, 07:54:58 AM »
I wonder if the primer was skipped. Wood would have the same problem.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17583
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2024, 09:53:39 AM »
That's interesting...and sounds like that area just has a shitty installer. If they got that sloppy with the adhesive and didn't do a decent paint job, then yeah, I'm sure it stands out. Like with anything, you have to make sure you've got someone that does quality work or it will turn out bad. I guess we may have gotten lucky, but after 8 years ours doesn't show any variations and there aren't many spots where you can see the caulk so it still looks really good. Personally, I'd take needing to paint once or twice in my lifetime for the added security, insulation properties, and sturdiness of Hardie over vinyl any day of the week.

Good advantages, but IMHO there are even better advantages for Hardie over Vinyl, including: fire rating, wind tolerance (when properly installed), sound attenuation, impact resistance (especially small stones kicked up by lawn equipment or cars). Iíve seen vinyl melt and warp from a grill fire that was 15í away.

Mr. Green

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4535
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Wilmington, NC
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2024, 01:32:00 PM »
That's interesting...and sounds like that area just has a shitty installer. If they got that sloppy with the adhesive and didn't do a decent paint job, then yeah, I'm sure it stands out. Like with anything, you have to make sure you've got someone that does quality work or it will turn out bad. I guess we may have gotten lucky, but after 8 years ours doesn't show any variations and there aren't many spots where you can see the caulk so it still looks really good. Personally, I'd take needing to paint once or twice in my lifetime for the added security, insulation properties, and sturdiness of Hardie over vinyl any day of the week.
These are million dollar homes with one of the area's premier builders. And it's a lot of the houses I see. I don't think it's an installer thing. I think paint simply doesn't hold up well long-term w/ significant sun exposure, regardless of what the Hardie company says. I also think it's more noticeable with the darker colors. Sun fade becomes more noticeable on the board whereas the adhesive tends to not fade the same.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3575
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2024, 01:50:38 PM »
Hardie will definitely fade over time.  However, here in the PNW I would take Hardie over cedar.   

sonofsven

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2024, 01:57:32 PM »
That's interesting...and sounds like that area just has a shitty installer. If they got that sloppy with the adhesive and didn't do a decent paint job, then yeah, I'm sure it stands out. Like with anything, you have to make sure you've got someone that does quality work or it will turn out bad. I guess we may have gotten lucky, but after 8 years ours doesn't show any variations and there aren't many spots where you can see the caulk so it still looks really good. Personally, I'd take needing to paint once or twice in my lifetime for the added security, insulation properties, and sturdiness of Hardie over vinyl any day of the week.
These are million dollar homes with one of the area's premier builders. And it's a lot of the houses I see. I don't think it's an installer thing. I think paint simply doesn't hold up well long-term w/ significant sun exposure, regardless of what the Hardie company says. I also think it's more noticeable with the darker colors. Sun fade becomes more noticeable on the board whereas the adhesive tends to not fade the same.
You're not supposed to caulk butt joints on the factory finished Hardie, and it's optional on the painted on site material.
But it could be a problem with the product, the paint, the  caulk, the installer...
One thing Hardie does well is hold paint, but it won't last forever. Agree that southern exposure can be hard in finishes.

And you can get really nice solid color stains in a variety of colors that go on just like a good water based paint for cedar siding. The product I've used is called Arborcoat, by Benjamin Moore.


Taran Wanderer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2024, 07:15:52 PM »
Having stained a family memberís cedar-sided house and painted our Hardie sided house, there is certainly an argument to be made for stain on cedar siding!

brandon1827

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Cedar Siding vs. Hardie Board
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2024, 06:54:46 AM »
That's interesting...and sounds like that area just has a shitty installer. If they got that sloppy with the adhesive and didn't do a decent paint job, then yeah, I'm sure it stands out. Like with anything, you have to make sure you've got someone that does quality work or it will turn out bad. I guess we may have gotten lucky, but after 8 years ours doesn't show any variations and there aren't many spots where you can see the caulk so it still looks really good. Personally, I'd take needing to paint once or twice in my lifetime for the added security, insulation properties, and sturdiness of Hardie over vinyl any day of the week.
These are million dollar homes with one of the area's premier builders. And it's a lot of the houses I see. I don't think it's an installer thing. I think paint simply doesn't hold up well long-term w/ significant sun exposure, regardless of what the Hardie company says. I also think it's more noticeable with the darker colors. Sun fade becomes more noticeable on the board whereas the adhesive tends to not fade the same.

I can only speak to my personal experience and ours still looks pretty good. I have seen others in my city that look bad, so I assumed installation was the primary difference since we had a guy from out of town do ours. I've seen houses with a sloppy install where adhesive was all over the place but there are others that are like ours where it seems more care was taken with the adhesive when the board/shake/shingle was put up.

The color we chose is Boothbay Blue, which is somewhat dark for a blue. We live on the farm my wife grew up on and our house is in the middle of an old cow pasture with no trees...so it gets full sun every day. Maybe it's a geographic thing or happens more with particular colors...but ours has held up really well over 8 years. It could also be that we're still on the good side of the time equation and ours will start to fade and look like shit in the coming years...but so far, so good.