Author Topic: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths  (Read 3877 times)

BuffaloStache

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[Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« on: May 02, 2017, 09:13:18 PM »
I found had some very interesting internal thoughts after listening to some podcasts that WNYC recently produced on the “America’s Poverty Myths”. I think they were very well produced and articulate and I recommend listening as you can.
 
Original content (five x ~30min podcasts): http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths
 
RadioLab excerpts/overview (one ~40min overview): http://www.radiolab.org/story/radiolab-presents-media-busted-americas-poverty-myths/
 
I couldn’t help but listen to this and think that on some level, the Mustachian community in theory should be staunchly Ayn-Randian and Objectivist, decrying the stories in these podcasts as examples of people not acting in their “best self interests”, and people not making the necessary sacrifices needed to actually give themselves a real shot at “pulling themselves up by their bootstraps”. Not enough details are provided about the lifestyles of the people featured in these stories (e.g. are they wastefully spending on cable TV, fast food, etc?) to make a real determination on if they are “allowing themselves to live their lives at the expense of others”. Internally, I do feel some of this sentiment.
 
On the other hand, my compassionate side (and some of my rational side) accepts the undisputed fact that the sheer luck of one’s upbringing (what lessons about money/finance one is taught as a child, and the financial example set by parental figures) and socioeconomic background really do create vastly different starting points for anyone interested in the path to FI(RE). Some people start their FI journey with $100k’s of student/car/housing debt and no assets to speak of, while others start with no debt and the potential of inheritance or even some assets set aside by parents.
 
<being philosophical meandering>
In my opinion one philosophical difference, and an opportunity for the MMM movement, is to be cognizant, sensitive, and adaptive to these vastly different starting points. Indeed, the MMM-esque advice for someone starting their FI(RE) journey with no debt and $100k+/yr of income is and should be vastly different than someone starting with lots of debt and $40k/yr of income.
</end philosophical call-to-arms>

More simply put: is this complainypants whining, or does it highlight real arguments here? What do you think?

MDM

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Re: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2017, 09:53:26 PM »
Indeed, the MMM-esque advice for someone starting their FI(RE) journey with no debt and $100k+/yr of income is and should be vastly different than someone starting with lots of debt and $40k/yr of income.
Regarding the highlighted phrase: in what ways?

BuffaloStache

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Re: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2017, 01:36:56 PM »
MMM goes into this more if you read all of his case studies: while the over-arching advice may be similar (cut costs, save more), the tools, timelines, and sensitivities change with income. For example, even MMM is likely not to question some small expenses for someone who is bringing in $100k+ each year, but will dig deeper/care more about every cent when the total income, and therefore potential max savings rate after paying for life essentials, is that much lower.

ysette9

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Re: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2017, 04:32:27 PM »
Personally the problem I have with the whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" nonsense is that it ignores the fact that the way one is raised has a massive influence over how prepared you are to be successful in life. It is easy for me to say "well that person should know better; obviously it is stupid to carry high-interest consumer debt and live paycheck to paycheck". However, I can say that from the comfortable position of having grown up with responsible parents with stable careers who talked to me about money habits. I also have the education to understand new concepts, the training to seek them out, and the interest and confidence to learn new things. I have a stable job that allows me to buy things like computers and internet connection that facilitate my learning process.

Put another way, there is a huge disadvantage to those who don't know, and then don't know that they don't know. As a personal example, I always did relatively well by saving part of my income and living within my means. I started puttering around online seeking out personal finance blogs and articles simply because it was an interest of mine. It took over a year of bouncing from one column or blog to another before I stumbled upon MMM by happenstance. How lucky I did because it opened up this whole new world to me that I didn't know existed. Without that fortuitous online stumble I could easily be working until 55/65 instead of being done by 40. Someone from the outside could look at me from 4 years ago and say "duh, why doesn't she save more/invest better/educate herself about FIRE?".  It is easy to judge from a position of knowledge and forget what it feels like to be in the dark and not even realize it.

My point with this ramble is that we are all human, we all have weaknesses, we all have limited time and resources. Overall I think we would all be better off if we set up our systems to nudge us into success instead of pointing fingers at people who don't make the "right" decisions, for whatever reason. What I mean by a system that sets people up for success is things along the line of providing reasonable opportunities for all for education, a social safety net for when things inevitably go wrong, nudges like auto-enroll retirement savings plans that you have to opt out of instead of opt in, using the vast power of marketing to nudge people to make healthy food choices, subsidizing healthier/more sustainable practices for living, commuting (i.e. zoning laws and urban planning), subsidizing healthy food instead of junk (how about an avocado or almond subsidy instead of a corn subsidy?), etc. etc. etc. Listening to some Freakonomics podcasts can give you ideas. Basically we can do a much better job setting up a system that primes people for success while still having plenty of freedom to choose otherwise, instead of our current default middle class lifestyle that is full of consumer traps you have to learn to avoid.


*side note: I read that the original meaning of the expression "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" was exactly as you would literally think it would be if you tried: something that is impossible to do and a logical absurdity to even attempt. I still think it retains some of that meaning, while the people who advocate for it are blind to the fact that you can't literally pull yourself up and that we all must rely on outside support structures to succeed, whether that is family, friends, education, a civil society with rule of law, access to information, or whatever.

BuffaloStache

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Re: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 08:40:15 PM »
^ These are all valid points. Also, it sounds like you have a great story for this thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/your-wake-up-call/?topicseen

But I totally agree with your point that your upbringing and general awareness are very important, and often overlooked by welfare detractors. I'm not saying that I think welfare in the US is a good system, and I agree that it should be modified to encourage more education, smart money sense, and other life skills more than it has to date.

jengod

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Re: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2017, 09:19:50 PM »
Thanks for sharing this. I am downloading the audio now and hope to be able to comment after I have listened.


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snacky

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Re: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2017, 10:11:03 PM »
For capitalism to operate as planned, there must be a certain level of unemployment. This reserve pool of labour keeps wages low and helps businesses succeed. For there to be a handful of winners there must be a great many losers, basically. This is accepted to be true by economists. It is therefore unjust to act punitively towards those who are unemployed or working the terrible jobs that are out there and must be done. Do you enjoy wealth? Thank a large number of poor people.

BuffaloStache

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Re: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2017, 09:03:28 AM »
For capitalism to operate as planned, there must be a certain level of unemployment... It is therefore unjust to act punitively towards those who are unemployed or working the terrible jobs that are out there and must be done...

I think that's one of the key take-aways of this podcast. Having temporary unemployment is a must, but the current welfare system in the US is set up in a way that lacks dignity, and doesn't always help people get back into employment down the road.

Spork

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Re: [Podcasts] Busted: America's Poverty Myths
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2017, 09:13:13 AM »
Personally the problem I have with the whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" nonsense is that it ignores the fact that the way one is raised has a massive influence over how prepared you are to be successful in life. It is easy for me to say "well that person should know better; obviously it is stupid to carry high-interest consumer debt and live paycheck to paycheck". However, I can say that from the comfortable position of having grown up with responsible parents with stable careers who talked to me about money habits. I also have the education to understand new concepts, the training to seek them out, and the interest and confidence to learn new things. I have a stable job that allows me to buy things like computers and internet connection that facilitate my learning process.

The alternative example:  There are quite a lot of people (my family included) that were raised in the same households yet turned out vastly different.  My oldest sibling should have known better, had every advantage in life and yet she was always massively in debt and never ever got past living paycheck-to-paycheck.