Author Topic: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work  (Read 13002 times)

asauer

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2020, 07:29:14 AM »
I will be working for only another year.  DH will work for another 7-8 years.  I've already had several conversations with him about expectations b/c I don't want any resentments or surprises (or as minimal as possible).  We've been pretty detailed about what additional family tasks I will take on and what he will continue to do.  We've also had conversations around how I plan to spend my time, I don't want to fall into a place where I am expected (unintentionally) to be 'on-call' for everything.  They have been very good conversations and we will likely see a family counselor for a few months during the transition just to keep comms open.  Good luck!  I'd love to hear about your transition.

Malcat

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2020, 07:46:12 AM »
My feathers are mostly grown out & I'm sitting on the edge of the nest waiting for the right wind or something, the future of health insurance mostly, but my (male) partner is still years off. Sorting out how to maintain the right expectations about how I use my time (I paid for it, point-blank) feels easier than the finances post-FIRE. I want to move away from the HCOL neighborhood I live in for work & I want to keep entirely separate finances until there's more parity, but how does that work without renting? Owning is the cheaper choice where I'd like to move. On the one hand charging rent to a partner feels wrong, & maybe legally risky. On the other he wants significantly more house than I would alone.

I'm also perturbed by the specter of being seen as a kept woman, but that's probably to be blamed on an upbringing that one should be "grateful" to financial providers ... in the form of exempting them from all other accountability. I hope it's an irrelevant fear, but especially in event of a rupture I don't want to have to explain to anyone that I'm FI just to be seen as 'deserving' of the free time & assets they'd otherwise think he was paying for. Though they pretend otherwise people here still think a woman's fortunes rise & fall with their romances. My plan was to be vague about the relationship of my productive hobbies to compensation & let people think I'm gainfully working at something, whether or not it's true at the time.

Re: renting vs owning

Well first, I'm going to assume you're not married. For non married couples where I live, it's very normal for one home owning partner to collect rent from the other. There should be no legal issues with this, but it's still always good to consult a lawyer and draw up whatever agreement the two of you feel is fair.

That agreement could be that he is a traditional tenant of yours and entitled to no equity, or you could agree to an equity payout in the event of a split. This can be arranged either as the two of you co-owning, or it can be arranged where he has no actual claim to the house, but you make a separate financial agreement that you will pay out the equivalent of his share of equity. This way it's always your house and if he becomes an ex, has no say over whether or not to sell.

As for size of house, that's going to have to be a compromise regardless of whether you buy or rent. But yeah, if you two are substantially at odds on this and cannot find a home you are both very happy with, then even if it's expensive, consider sticking with renting so that you never end up with a house you don't want to own.

You're right though, the financial aspects of a relationship can be incredibly challenging if the two people aren't on the same page in terms of priorities. It requires A LOT of communication about tricky negotiations. Hopefully the house size is your only significant sticking point, but that's a substantial one that I've seen a lot of couples grapple with.

As for being seen as a kept woman, the only thing I can say is that absolutely everyone walks around every day being judged by misperceptions about themselves. You do it to, you make countless assumptions about everyone you know that are probably grossly inaccurate, and some of them very hurtful.

Whenever I start feeling bent out of shape that people who don't know me well might assume uncomfortable things about me, I try to remember that I unintentionally think all sorts of hurtful things about others that I'm not even remotely aware are hurtful.

When I remind myself that I do it too, it's easier to not take it personally, because I in no way mean it to be hurtful to anyone. It's not malicious, it's simply cognitive efficiency, we fill in the blanks of what we don't know about people until and unless we are given specific evidence to contradict it.

I assumed for years that my friend's girlfriend didn't like me because she never accepted an invite and often seemed to sabotage my friend coming over, or would call him and insist he come home early. She stopped working shortly after they got together as well, and had a bit of a shopping addiction. She seemed like a controlling kept woman, but I generally just stayed out of it and shook my head. Her boyfriend was always vague and dismissive if anyone said anything. Only after they broke up did I find out that she had experienced major trauma and had developed crippling anxiety and agoraphobia.

I wish I had known, I tried to find out why she behaved as she did, but she didn't want anyone knowing her personal business, which I respect. Who am I to be entitled to her innermost intimate truths? It sucks, and I feel terrible, but I filled in the blanks with the information I was entitled to.

You have no idea the endless secrets of those around you, and your brain glosses over them with reasonable, probable conclusions. People will always do the same with you, and assuming you're a kept woman isn't the only one you wouldn't appreciate. People make tons of assumptions about you every day that would probably irritate you to be aware of.

It's not personal, so try not to take it personally.

I long ago decided to be amused by how people might mispercieve me, and take it as a point of pride that I defy expectation so much that those who encounter me are almost guaranteed to draw inaccurate conclusions.

Any time I choose to get to know someone, it's always a game of uncovering all of the incorrect assumptions they had made about me up to that point. I find it fun because I'm proud of what it represents. For example, DH and I have the same last name, and everyone we meet assumes, reasonably, that it's his family name. I get a kick out of knowing that he took mine. I don't feel the need to tell everyone (he does because he thinks he's so damn cool for doing it), but I just enjoy knowing they're assuming something stereotypical and that it's wrong because my marriage defied that gender expectation.

People will assume you're a kept woman because what you've chosen to do is so rare and exceptional. The only way people won't make wildly inaccurate assumptions about you is if you are the most vanilla, predictable, gender normative, white sheep of the pack.

StarBright

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2020, 07:55:35 AM »
@sui generis  - thank you for that awesome post! There was so much in there to think about.


In fact, I used to make like 2-3x DH's salary (lawyer's at BigLaw firms get paid ridiculous amounts), and I retired strictly on my own money.  We don't share at all.  But of course people don't know that, and he has a pretty presitigious job so some people that are like acquaintances, etc. probably think that I'm just coasting on his money.  That really chaps my hide, as it is so important to me that I did this on my own and I'm not riding his coattails.  So yes, as people have said on this thread, I shouldn't care what other people think, but power can also be perceived from outside, and I'm a little bit devastated that young girls and boys could perceive us as just fulfilling some stereotypical gender roles, vs. me taking my own power and using it to make my own choices. But, whatever, I can't solve everything.


In the bolded, you really articulated something that has been nagging me but I hadn't quite wrapped my brain around yet: the way we are perceived from the outside does send messages to our children.

I've never really considered leaving my job during COVID, even though it would be easier, and one reason is that I don't want to send that message to my daughter and son.

But I also see how being home is perceived by outsiders because I have worked from my home the entire time we have lived in this current location. I am treated differently than my husband by members of our community.  Now some if this is definitely location dependent (in a conservative-ish area of the midwest) and I would probably still be treated similarly if I worked outside the home? But I think perception-wise, home= less than in so many ways.



« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 07:54:06 AM by StarBright »

Missy B

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2020, 09:24:05 PM »
My DH is still working and I've now been FIREd for almost 2.5 years.  And I say congratulations for asking a good question and it's a good sign that you are asking - that probably means that y'all will be thoughtful about it and work hard with each other.  Undoubtedly, in a hetero relationship, I would advise the woman to be very careful around this because, while the FIRE population might be different, there's no question that in genpop, women do a disproportionate amount of home and childcare, even when all parties *think* they are pretty equal, and it's only gotten worse with COVID. But for those of us that think and work on it, and are used to defying societal norms, I think it's also rather easy to escape the unfair norms.

I loved your whole post @sui generis - this bit particularly resonated with me. Both time-use studies and anecdotes tell me that it's really common for men in a hetero relationship to think that they are doing a fair share, while women spend far more time and energy doing and managing the household and childcare chores. Something that often gets missed is the effort of planning, scheduling and assigning the chores: the difference between adding the sunscreen to the basket and monitoring the sunscreen in the house, knowing how fast it is normally used, forecasting that the kids will need plenty for the pool party they have at the weekend, adding it to the shopping list and reminding the designated shopper to go before the weekend. It's different for all relationships, but it's really important for both men and women to be aware of the trend and the potential for blindspots.

Yeah. That kind of stuff takes a lot of bandwidth but doesn't look like work and so gets ignored as a contribution. This was the first book I ever found that talked about that dynamic:
https://www.amazon.ca/Wifework-Susan-Maushart/dp/0747561729

After i read it I brought the subject up with the married women I knew, and every one expressed frustration that their husband paid no attention to how much milk was in the fridge, or whether one of the kids had a dental appointment (or even whether they themselves had a dental apt)... instead, waited for their wife to tell them if they needed to do something. And couldn't understand why their wives were angry. I think this mode is changing, but I don't think it has changed quite as much as people like to think.

charis

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2020, 10:26:36 PM »
Yes, the expectation that a wife should be constantly communicating the household needs, lest she be accused of not communicating what needs to be done is quite something. It afflicts women in general, but mothers incredibly so, only bc there's so much more to remember.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2020, 11:56:40 PM »
Malcat, you are a gift. (Yes, unmarried. Iíll follow the tip & ask an attorney about rent contracts. It should be simple math, but it feels skewed by the below.)

While I love playing the game of assumptions with acquaintances, I shouldíve clarified the social fear's less about strangers & more about family & friends: loss of social support in the event that the partnership isn't made to last. Iíve expended myself singlemindedly for years to build a stash while heís comfortably enjoyed the present with room for mistakes, setbacks, & social life. I live in the South, so no amount of type-A, grade-A achievement & breadwinning seems to preclude the need in even those who know me well to offer reminders that I should be grateful to the men Iíve supported: as Iím just a parasite by biological destiny on male relations, I owe my accomplishments to them. (Biblical quotes about rib bones are optional. Horrific, but itís not malice, merely entrenched mental habit.)

The precedent in both family & social circle is that when couples dissolve, men are retained & rehabilitated, women are ghosted or scarcely-tolerated, regardless of the original relationships or even conditions of the split. In the local imagination itís a womanís job to provide, then endlessly endeavor & endure to preserve, coupledom. Employment is a shield which allows me to choose a preferable failure state if the relationship falls apart: I can (barely) tolerate the community scapegoating me as excessively career-focused & frigid, but not at all as a lazy housewife who couldnít Ďearní her keep even with Ďnothing else to do.í (Heís more feminist than this, but an introvert among extroverts who wonít control the narrative.) Even if weíre on good terms, it rankles to carry the knowledge/ pressure that the costs of ďnot keeping a manĒ are so high: thereís no parity in that, it ceases to feel like a free association of equals.

On the other hand, hammering all this out makes me realize that social impact of RE on this cluster**** is really negligible in the end & the issue has been that with work I haven't had time to find community that can see me as more than a current or potential accessory to someone else.

Malcat

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2020, 06:22:19 AM »
Malcat, you are a gift. (Yes, unmarried. Iíll follow the tip & ask an attorney about rent contracts. It should be simple math, but it feels skewed by the below.)

While I love playing the game of assumptions with acquaintances, I shouldíve clarified the social fear's less about strangers & more about family & friends: loss of social support in the event that the partnership isn't made to last. Iíve expended myself singlemindedly for years to build a stash while heís comfortably enjoyed the present with room for mistakes, setbacks, & social life. I live in the South, so no amount of type-A, grade-A achievement & breadwinning seems to preclude the need in even those who know me well to offer reminders that I should be grateful to the men Iíve supported: as Iím just a parasite by biological destiny on male relations, I owe my accomplishments to them. (Biblical quotes about rib bones are optional. Horrific, but itís not malice, merely entrenched mental habit.)

The precedent in both family & social circle is that when couples dissolve, men are retained & rehabilitated, women are ghosted or scarcely-tolerated, regardless of the original relationships or even conditions of the split. In the local imagination itís a womanís job to provide, then endlessly endeavor & endure to preserve, coupledom. Employment is a shield which allows me to choose a preferable failure state if the relationship falls apart: I can (barely) tolerate the community scapegoating me as excessively career-focused & frigid, but not at all as a lazy housewife who couldnít Ďearní her keep even with Ďnothing else to do.í (Heís more feminist than this, but an introvert among extroverts who wonít control the narrative.) Even if weíre on good terms, it rankles to carry the knowledge/ pressure that the costs of ďnot keeping a manĒ are so high: thereís no parity in that, it ceases to feel like a free association of equals.

On the other hand, hammering all this out makes me realize that social impact of RE on this cluster**** is really negligible in the end & the issue has been that with work I haven't had time to find community that can see me as more than a current or potential accessory to someone else.

You nailed it with the last part.

None of this has anything to do with you or your partner.
If your social sphere isn't meeting your needs, get a better social sphere.

The attitudes your are describing are not sustainable for long term happiness, that can't be the only thing you surround yourself with, you will go completely insane.

You need your own network, and it doesn't even need to be geographically close to you. The people I share more with right now are friends I schedule regular calls with, and only one lives in my city, and one is a friend from here I've never met.

Take this seriously. Make it your top priority. You NEED social connection with people you can trust to respect you as you are. It truly is a basic human need.

Some people can get this from their partner alone, but I really don't recommend it. As you already noted, relationships can end, and this can also put way too much emotional load on a partner, being a person's only healthy relationship. That's a lot to carry.

The good news is the world is jam packed with adults dying for more friends who can understand them. What do you think brings us all here?

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2020, 09:32:13 AM »
... The good news is the world is jam packed with adults dying for more friends who can understand them. What do you think brings us all here?
If you ever end up arranging a pseudonym, put me down for the book, please, we all need more text to shout "YEAH!" at & gift to friends.

I deleted a line in a previous draft (this is my best effort at concision) re: "the people I'd eat ice cream with after a breakup are hundreds of miles away", not least because they fled the stifling illogic & dead-ends of our circle here. The locals were my group first... but he fits the script & thus threatens no one, which is eminently winsome; I don't, never have, never plan to. Our mere dating relieves tensions because I'm normalized as "owned" & can be largely ignored as a counternarrative without the guilt of exclusion since I'm still his plus-one. The last few years have been a s#!&show of trauma & forced-march labor so I haven't branched out to new groups with non-existent spare energy, but clearly I'm not over that social deletion.

If my SO were also ready, we could/ might relocate; despite separate finances I might feel more free to pull the plug (not worrying about his inability to cover catastrophic emergencies, e.g. medical), another crack where the sensation of a tipped power dynamic comes in. Broadly: even a status quo we're both frustrated with & find displeasing is on balance beneficial to him personally & professionally, costly to me on the same axes.

Anticonsumerism is isolating, being female with any desire for authenticity or self-determination is triply isolating, work is similarly performative. I've been feebly brainstorming better social spheres; my hope post-pandemic is to make local friends in volunteering, maybe audit classes, but I can tell my future vision is hazy due to burnout around the edges. I've got a bad case of one-more-month syndrome, but that's far superior to the last year at least!

freeatlast

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2020, 01:01:09 PM »
My husband still works and I FIRED. Nothing much changed. Itís a second marriage and we keep our finances separated to some extent. I pull my weight with my savings and a rental property.  I paid off our mortgage before I FIRED so now he buys me health insurance through his job. I keep busy with exercise and art classes.  I think heíd be bad off psychologically if he gave up his job, and I was bad off with a very stressful job. I was so stressed, he pretty much got tired of hearing about it and told me to quit. So I did :)


Malcat

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2020, 02:01:26 PM »
... The good news is the world is jam packed with adults dying for more friends who can understand them. What do you think brings us all here?
If you ever end up arranging a pseudonym, put me down for the book, please, we all need more text to shout "YEAH!" at & gift to friends.

I deleted a line in a previous draft (this is my best effort at concision) re: "the people I'd eat ice cream with after a breakup are hundreds of miles away", not least because they fled the stifling illogic & dead-ends of our circle here. The locals were my group first... but he fits the script & thus threatens no one, which is eminently winsome; I don't, never have, never plan to. Our mere dating relieves tensions because I'm normalized as "owned" & can be largely ignored as a counternarrative without the guilt of exclusion since I'm still his plus-one. The last few years have been a s#!&show of trauma & forced-march labor so I haven't branched out to new groups with non-existent spare energy, but clearly I'm not over that social deletion.

If my SO were also ready, we could/ might relocate; despite separate finances I might feel more free to pull the plug (not worrying about his inability to cover catastrophic emergencies, e.g. medical), another crack where the sensation of a tipped power dynamic comes in. Broadly: even a status quo we're both frustrated with & find displeasing is on balance beneficial to him personally & professionally, costly to me on the same axes.

Anticonsumerism is isolating, being female with any desire for authenticity or self-determination is triply isolating, work is similarly performative. I've been feebly brainstorming better social spheres; my hope post-pandemic is to make local friends in volunteering, maybe audit classes, but I can tell my future vision is hazy due to burnout around the edges. I've got a bad case of one-more-month syndrome, but that's far superior to the last year at least!

This makes me so sad.

That is so not the norm everywhere. Where I live, there's virtually no social consequences for me being boldly authentic, frugal, opinionated, and generally non conforming.

I mean, there would be I suppose if I let people into my life who treated me that way, but knowing some folks who live in Texas, I'm willing to bet it's also a regional thing.

Point being, yes, the need for a social network that actually accepts and respects you must migrate to the very top of your priority list. This is a hair on fire emergency IMO. This really, really matters.

How you are feeling in your own emotional space is incredibly damaging. If you can't find the people locally, then find them online. Whatever it takes, find people who can make you feel like the person you are, as you are, is deserving of deep abiding respect.

FWIW, I would take your company any day over the people you are describing who have those archaic, sexist, and limiting beliefs.

Good god, how fucking sad for them that they don't get to enjoy you in authentic form. How sad for them that they find such comfort in reductive nonsense. It's just sad.

LightTripper

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2020, 03:45:28 PM »
Good god, how fucking sad for them that they don't get to enjoy you in authentic form. How sad for them that they find such comfort in reductive nonsense. It's just sad.

I don't know you of course or the area you live but totally agree with everything Malcat said and especially this last bit.  You SCREAM "splendid person" over the internet.  There will be people IRL who value you for who you are.   I believe there must be such people even in your area though given how you've described things I can also believe they are hard to find.  Maybe try places where people automatically cannot fit into those neat boxes?  Volunteering could be a good start .... they must must must be out there, and are trapped trying to find a way to meet YOU just as much as you are desperate to meet THEM with this massive sea of just UGH in between you.  But there will be a way through.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 07:42:51 AM by LightTripper »

Imma

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2020, 05:10:52 PM »
@eyesonthehorizon I know exactly what you feel like. I grew up in a place like that. When my parents divorced my mother was basically chased out of the community she was born in (unlike my father, who stayed) and my father was known as a bad 'un and was a perpetrator of domestic violence. Everybody knew and my mum didn't even think of pressing charge. Still, divorcing a man like that was taboo. Especially as she ended up richer than him after the divorce because her job was better paid and now her husband didn't spend all her money. She started over in a new city in a different province in her 50s.

A bit earlier I had also left the community for college and knew I was never going back. As I was breaking away from the community I sought help from the college psychologist and she was sure I was suffering from paranoia, she just couldn't comprehend that these kind of places exist.

I knew I had to leave even when I was a kid. I didn't fit in and I was always going to be a weirdo. In highschool adult women were already warning me that with my behaviour I'd never get married. And what's the point of life for a woman if you're unmarried? But breaking away was still hard. It cost me dearly. Only one close relative fully supported me and always loved me and talked and probably bragged about me to everyone. Others still secretly cared about me but didn't want to advertise that. I remember when I visited a lady who had literally changed my diapers and her neighbour dropped in unexpectedly. She looked frightened because she was going to be the talk of town now.

Dicey

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2020, 07:10:02 PM »
@Imma, have you read Tara Westover's splendid memoir, "Educated"? It might speak to you. Easily the most haunting book I've read in years.

ysette9

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2020, 03:37:10 PM »
Malcat, you are a gift. (Yes, unmarried. Iíll follow the tip & ask an attorney about rent contracts. It should be simple math, but it feels skewed by the below.)

While I love playing the game of assumptions with acquaintances, I shouldíve clarified the social fear's less about strangers & more about family & friends: loss of social support in the event that the partnership isn't made to last. Iíve expended myself singlemindedly for years to build a stash while heís comfortably enjoyed the present with room for mistakes, setbacks, & social life. I live in the South, so no amount of type-A, grade-A achievement & breadwinning seems to preclude the need in even those who know me well to offer reminders that I should be grateful to the men Iíve supported: as Iím just a parasite by biological destiny on male relations, I owe my accomplishments to them. (Biblical quotes about rib bones are optional. Horrific, but itís not malice, merely entrenched mental habit.)

The precedent in both family & social circle is that when couples dissolve, men are retained & rehabilitated, women are ghosted or scarcely-tolerated, regardless of the original relationships or even conditions of the split. In the local imagination itís a womanís job to provide, then endlessly endeavor & endure to preserve, coupledom. Employment is a shield which allows me to choose a preferable failure state if the relationship falls apart: I can (barely) tolerate the community scapegoating me as excessively career-focused & frigid, but not at all as a lazy housewife who couldnít Ďearní her keep even with Ďnothing else to do.í (Heís more feminist than this, but an introvert among extroverts who wonít control the narrative.) Even if weíre on good terms, it rankles to carry the knowledge/ pressure that the costs of ďnot keeping a manĒ are so high: thereís no parity in that, it ceases to feel like a free association of equals.

On the other hand, hammering all this out makes me realize that social impact of RE on this cluster**** is really negligible in the end & the issue has been that with work I haven't had time to find community that can see me as more than a current or potential accessory to someone else.
Iím late to the conversation, but I want to chime in and say that your social situation sounds like absolute shit. On thť west coast i have this impression that the south is backwards, but I would have never imagined to this degree. I concur with others on prioritizing yourself and finding supportive relationships in whatever way you can. Hell, Iíll be your friend if you want!

ysette9

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2020, 03:38:16 PM »
And @imma - I had no idea that such backwards attitudes existed in the western world outside of the United States and our uniquely backwards thinking. Iím sorry you grew up that way and Iím glad you escaped. Your mother especially.

Imma

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2020, 02:43:36 AM »
Thanks @Dicey , I'll look into it! Hadn't heard of it. My background personally is not orthodox religion, but "just" conservative. We were nominally Catholic like everyone in our town was.

@ysette9 somehow Americans like to think that everyone in Europe must be more modern and progressive and their own country is backwards. But Europe is big - well, not geographically big compared to your continent, but there are so many different countries with different cultures, and like everywhere we have big divides between rural and urban areas. And some places are very modern in one way and very conservative in others.

Personally, I'm from the Netherlands, and while we're known for our tolerance towards drugs and prostitution, we also strongly feel that children should be raised primarily by their mothers. Everywhere except in the most urban elites fulltime working mothers are frowned upon. In the company I previously worked for, the director actually announced that he'd never hire a mother for a fulltime job because he believed that could only end up in disaster. On the flip side, working 4 days a week is acceptable in almost all fields, and is also increasingly common for men. Among my friends and acquaintances (highly educated women in their 30s in one of the biggest cities) I know more young mothers who take recreational drugs on the weekend than young mothers that work fulltime.

In the rural, conservative area I grew up in, women could work in the family business or a couple of days a week in an unthreatening job like nursing or working in a shop. But anything else was considered to be a challenge to the "provider" as an insult to the breadwinner.

But with our acceptance of parttime work we're actually more modern than for example Germany, in many places in Germany mothers still mostly stay home. The further East you travel in Europe, the more women work outside of the home.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2021, 11:22:05 PM »
Oof. Thanks, Malcat, LightTripper, Imma, Ysette, for the kind words & insight, & thanks to Dicey for the book recc. We have been in crunch at work & I didn't think I could compose anything cogent, but I've come back & reread these for grounding about six times in five weeks. Malcat, the alarm is rung. I've made a point of reconnecting with my far-flung sensible friends for some sanity. I know no word for the bewilderment beyond fury I read into your reply; I've lived in that space... for others, after a gaslit youth that it didn't count if it happened to me. LightTripper - wait, I have a reputation here? I appreciate the hope; fortunately I like people enough that I always trust some of them are up to good. You described my precise affinity for certain subcultures: I seek the places where the boxes don't fit anyone. I've sloppily assumed, as I ramp toward the terrifying costly purchase of my own time, that this was something I could slot in after RE but I'm seeking ways to engage it in pandemic mode. Thanks for the calls to action.

Imma: I am so sorry. That summary does sound a lot like what I grew up with; many mothers worked, but poverty was the driver when I was growing up (rather than aspiration as now) so I'm not surprised to hear it's more common further east. I cut the domestic abuse line from my first post, but here "we" certainly look the other way, let it be "the couple's private matter", then if there's a split, rehabilitate the men's images into great hubs & dads while ousting women who won't swallow the inconvenient truth for the sake of letting everyone else "move on": I'm so glad your mom escaped. The sensation when people in a decent society pathologize you for having witnessed a sick one is vertigo-inducing & even if you know where fault lies it feels awful to be anyone's secret. I'm guilty of assuming the Netherlands would be progressive on women's freedoms but it sounds like there's a higher premium on nonwork life generally, which just forces women to uphold a much higher standard in (gendered) nonwork pursuits, rather than the split difference as here with baby on one arm & briefcase on the other... or briefcase & bikini body, which in either case regardless of individual agency is read as signaling willingness to serve men's interests, despite acquiring a now-compulsory measure of male-coded success. Women are supposed to do it all... plus find a man who earns more, or strife is her fault.

Ysette, the thing I'd compare it to is Hollywood & Silicon Valley's relatively permissive attitude toward assault, dubious consent & exclusive bro culture: women are allowed different expressions of power (freedoms) across regions, but no matter how powerful women get in former British colonies it seems they are still reliably subjected to yet-more-powerful men - only the justifications/ formality of hierarchy differ, the specifics of public vs. private power. I lay it out much more plainly than it appears where it's normalized and excused, but is it really different than Sean Penn continuing to get work the last few decades or the vehement defenses heard of Elon Musk's purported calculating attitude toward his first wife? Same dance: whatever the purported values, it's charisma & power that move. Women out there are often just richer and thus have more options before absolute rock bottom.

Malcat

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2021, 06:35:07 AM »
I wouldn't be so absolute about the state of womanhood in the world. Yes, men are still in power, and yes, that still creates a lot of power imbalances for women, but there are plenty of places and ways of being a middle class woman in the western world that is highly autonomous and authentic.

I don't have children, I made far more than my DH, I retired well before him, and I am extremely assertive in both my professional and personal life, and I get no meaningful push back. I "lean in" more than most alpha males, and I generally command enormous respect for it.

I'm not saying every woman can just boldly live as her authentic self with no consequences, that's not at all what I'm saying. I recognize my position of privilege to live as unapologetically as I do. Also, I do experience consequences, they're just consequences I'm more comfortable with than feeling the need to censor my own existence.

My point is not that everyone can do it, but that it very much can be done. So if the consequences of the social oppression you describe are unacceptable to you, as they would be to me, then you have the option to do something about it.

You can build your own tribe, or develop a really thick skin against judgement, or move somewhere less shitty towards women, or whatever works for you as an individual to feel like you aren't perpetually living under oppressive boot-heels.

That's not sustainable for mental health, and I don't consider it an acceptable way to live.

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2021, 07:20:00 AM »
My DH is still working and I've now been FIREd for almost 2.5 years.  And I say congratulations for asking a good question and it's a good sign that you are asking - that probably means that y'all will be thoughtful about it and work hard with each other.  Undoubtedly, in a hetero relationship, I would advise the woman to be very careful around this because, while the FIRE population might be different, there's no question that in genpop, women do a disproportionate amount of home and childcare, even when all parties *think* they are pretty equal, and it's only gotten worse with COVID. But for those of us that think and work on it, and are used to defying societal norms, I think it's also rather easy to escape the unfair norms.

I loved your whole post @sui generis - this bit particularly resonated with me. Both time-use studies and anecdotes tell me that it's really common for men in a hetero relationship to think that they are doing a fair share, while women spend far more time and energy doing and managing the household and childcare chores. Something that often gets missed is the effort of planning, scheduling and assigning the chores: the difference between adding the sunscreen to the basket and monitoring the sunscreen in the house, knowing how fast it is normally used, forecasting that the kids will need plenty for the pool party they have at the weekend, adding it to the shopping list and reminding the designated shopper to go before the weekend. It's different for all relationships, but it's really important for both men and women to be aware of the trend and the potential for blindspots.

Yeah. That kind of stuff takes a lot of bandwidth but doesn't look like work and so gets ignored as a contribution. This was the first book I ever found that talked about that dynamic:
https://www.amazon.ca/Wifework-Susan-Maushart/dp/0747561729

After i read it I brought the subject up with the married women I knew, and every one expressed frustration that their husband paid no attention to how much milk was in the fridge, or whether one of the kids had a dental appointment (or even whether they themselves had a dental apt)... instead, waited for their wife to tell them if they needed to do something. And couldn't understand why their wives were angry. I think this mode is changing, but I don't think it has changed quite as much as people like to think.
[/quote
Thank you for this. I know I'm late to this party but I'm working on my marriage and this is one of the issues I want to address. I will definitely look for that book. I work and my husband is the SAHP and I still do most of the doctor/dentist/school stuff.

I never wanted to be dependent on a man, so I fell into the opposite trap of making a man dependent on me.

Reynold

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2021, 04:16:04 PM »
In my case, my DW has been a stay at home wife (no kids) for 20+ years now, and it worked out well for both of us.  She tended to find the workforce frustrating because she has EXTREMELY high standards for how things should be done, and her coworkers didn't ever meet them.  Managing the household she can meet her own standards, and we were able to keep a lot of free time to do things on evenings and weekends, which wouldn't have been the case if we were both working.  Since we are both naturally frugal, we saved enough on my income alone to be able to retire very soon. 

So she has sort of faced this question, and tells me regularly that she feels guilty that she isn't bringing in an income, despite my telling her that I highly value the effort she puts into making the house into a home, ensuring our good nutrition, paying bills on time so we have a great credit score, and so on.  I think, and tell her, that she is very much an equal partner in what we have achieved. 

My concern is that to do the job of household management to her standards requires about 50 hours/week of work, and she still always feels behind.  I currently help out some evenings and put a weekend day into chores as well, but I'm a bit worried that when I retire, I will be expected to pitch in more, which is not unreasonable on the face of it, and it will turn into 60 hours/week to "stay on top of everything".  Thus I'll be trading ~40 hours/week of paid work, which I do generally enjoy, + benefits, for 30 hours/week of unpaid work.  Conversations about lowering standards for household management over the years have not been very well received.  We will probably have to have some more negotiation on that. 

spartana

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2021, 04:34:12 PM »
^^ Im curious what kind of household tasks would take 50 hours per week - week in and week out - for a childless couple? Not judging just curious (nosey!!) but it does seem like an awful lot of time devoted to chores.  I Fired as a childless single homeowner with a horde of pets and did all the stuff myself and, once retired, seemed I had lots of free time. So maybe your spouse is choosing to work that much of home chores because she wants to feel she is an equal contributor while you're working but will slack off a bit once you retire. Doubt you'll have to help out unless you enjoy it and can do it together.

charis

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2021, 10:05:30 PM »
^^ Im curious what kind of household tasks would take 50 hours per week - week in and week out - for a childless couple? Not judging just curious (nosey!!) but it does seem like an awful lot of time devoted to chores.  I Fired as a childless single homeowner with a horde of pets and did all the stuff myself and, once retired, seemed I had lots of free time. So maybe your spouse is choosing to work that much of home chores because she wants to feel she is an equal contributor while you're working but will slack off a bit once you retire. Doubt you'll have to help out unless you enjoy it and can do it together.

I'm curious about this too. We have kids and both work full time but still manage to eat nutritionally and have good credit and finances.  We spend evenings and weekends with kids/each other mostly so chores aren't taking up a huge amount of time.  Our standards are obviously not super high by necessity, but we aren't lacking in cleanliness, healthy food, and free time.  People will frequently "fill" their extra time with chores to feel productive.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2021, 12:46:22 AM »
Since this week my DH is back to work for 3 months, while I am still FIRE'd. He is of course working from home, which at least saves him from a commute. What I notice, is that I have some more trouble to get out of the door to go skiing. Normally it helps being two, because you can mentally motivate each other. But now DH said I had to entertain myself. Normally, in summer, I find this easy. But in winter it is more of a mental hurdle.

Imma

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2021, 05:28:03 AM »
^^ Im curious what kind of household tasks would take 50 hours per week - week in and week out - for a childless couple? Not judging just curious (nosey!!) but it does seem like an awful lot of time devoted to chores.  I Fired as a childless single homeowner with a horde of pets and did all the stuff myself and, once retired, seemed I had lots of free time. So maybe your spouse is choosing to work that much of home chores because she wants to feel she is an equal contributor while you're working but will slack off a bit once you retire. Doubt you'll have to help out unless you enjoy it and can do it together.

I'm curious about this too. We have kids and both work full time but still manage to eat nutritionally and have good credit and finances.  We spend evenings and weekends with kids/each other mostly so chores aren't taking up a huge amount of time.  Our standards are obviously not super high by necessity, but we aren't lacking in cleanliness, healthy food, and free time.  People will frequently "fill" their extra time with chores to feel productive.

 I used to have an aunt like that. As a kid I wondered what she did all day, as she seemed more busy than my mum who was working, raising kids, volunteering, baking our own bread and making all of our own clothes. She was very offended and said I'd get it when I was an adult!

I still don't. I don't spend a lot of time doing housework because honestly my standards aren't too high, but when I do a deep clean before we have overnight visitors it still doesn't take that much time.

@Reynold I can imagine it must be very stressful to live with such a perfectionist. It's fair to do your share when you're retired but I think in an average childless household that shouldn't be more than an hour per person per day, cooking included. Unless you live in a mansion or something.

Malcat

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2021, 11:47:16 AM »
In my case, my DW has been a stay at home wife (no kids) for 20+ years now, and it worked out well for both of us.  She tended to find the workforce frustrating because she has EXTREMELY high standards for how things should be done, and her coworkers didn't ever meet them.  Managing the household she can meet her own standards, and we were able to keep a lot of free time to do things on evenings and weekends, which wouldn't have been the case if we were both working.  Since we are both naturally frugal, we saved enough on my income alone to be able to retire very soon. 

So she has sort of faced this question, and tells me regularly that she feels guilty that she isn't bringing in an income, despite my telling her that I highly value the effort she puts into making the house into a home, ensuring our good nutrition, paying bills on time so we have a great credit score, and so on.  I think, and tell her, that she is very much an equal partner in what we have achieved. 

My concern is that to do the job of household management to her standards requires about 50 hours/week of work, and she still always feels behind.  I currently help out some evenings and put a weekend day into chores as well, but I'm a bit worried that when I retire, I will be expected to pitch in more, which is not unreasonable on the face of it, and it will turn into 60 hours/week to "stay on top of everything".  Thus I'll be trading ~40 hours/week of paid work, which I do generally enjoy, + benefits, for 30 hours/week of unpaid work.  Conversations about lowering standards for household management over the years have not been very well received.  We will probably have to have some more negotiation on that.

Like everything, this is a matter of communication and mutual respect.

You have to clearly communicate your desires for what kind of retirement you want and listen while she communicates her desire for what she wants retirement to look like, and find a way to meet each other's needs.

There's no right answer, there's just the answer that will work best in your marriage for both people to feel happy, loved, respected, and appreciated.

goat_music_generator

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2021, 12:10:19 PM »
PTF -- as I'm not in this situation yet but I most likely will be in a few weeks.

This has been some good food for thought, because while my spouse and I have a good balance for chores and whatnot now, we should make sure we're on the same page about expectations when I'm FIREd... especially if kids come into the picture later (which we do plan on).

Our chore solution is the most nerdy and technical solution possible, which is that we built a web app that rewards chores based on an auction+scheduling system. It works well for most things, but not all (... one of the things I want to work on once I'm FI...).

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #76 on: January 20, 2021, 06:53:03 PM »
...So maybe your spouse is choosing to work that much of home chores because she wants to feel she is an equal contributor while you're working but will slack off a bit once you retire.
Seconding this, since I have been there & done that myself while unemployed staying with friends & witnessed other friends do the same.

...Our chore solution is the most nerdy and technical solution possible, which is that we built a web app that rewards chores based on an auction+scheduling system. It works well for most things, but not all (... one of the things I want to work on once I'm FI...).
Once you brush it up are you planning to release that for general use? That sounds amazing...!

Linea_Norway

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2021, 01:25:19 AM »
Now after a few weeks of DH working from home, it seems he is not resenting me. Sometimes in the morning he asks where I am going to ski today, maybe to motivate me to do so. I have a bit of a challenge to find motivation to go out in heavy snow weather.
So far, I have taking the job of clearing the car and parts of the driveway of snow. The rest is done by a tractor. I clean a bit more than usual, in the sense that I do the tasks that we used to divide. But if DH in the weekend notices the floor is dirty, he still cleans it.
I also do most of the cooking, but have been doing that for some time, because there are so many recipees I want to try out.
Unfortunately I often don't fall asleep again after DH's 6:30 am alarm clock. That is a bit to get used to.

goat_music_generator

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2021, 06:35:59 AM »

...Our chore solution is the most nerdy and technical solution possible, which is that we built a web app that rewards chores based on an auction+scheduling system. It works well for most things, but not all (... one of the things I want to work on once I'm FI...).
Once you brush it up are you planning to release that for general use? That sounds amazing...!

Definitely would like to! It needs some major improvements before it's really ready -- we've had a couple friends try it out and give up on it because it's too fiddly at the moment. But hey, I'll have lots of time to work on it soon.

The Drawing Bird

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2021, 01:15:08 AM »
The consensus (from women) so far seems to be:
  • Yes, being at home more shifts expectations.  It can exacerbate existing imbalances.
  • Other obligations, like children or elderly parents, adds another layer of complexity. 
  • The appearance of being a housewife can chafe.
  • Communication and friends are essential.

I've loved the thoughts and conversation so far, and they've come to insights that I didn't expect.  But is it a crazy thought that the shifting expectations (i.e. that if you're home and you're not doing anything, you should do a larger share of the housework) are a good thing? Well... maybe not "good", but fair?

I can imagine that this would motivate me to dive deep into a hobby and/or get out of the house!   

Villanelle

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2021, 02:21:09 PM »
The consensus (from women) so far seems to be:
  • Yes, being at home more shifts expectations.  It can exacerbate existing imbalances.
  • Other obligations, like children or elderly parents, adds another layer of complexity. 
  • The appearance of being a housewife can chafe.
  • Communication and friends are essential.

I've loved the thoughts and conversation so far, and they've come to insights that I didn't expect.  But is it a crazy thought that the shifting expectations (i.e. that if you're home and you're not doing anything, you should do a larger share of the housework) are a good thing? Well... maybe not "good", but fair?

I can imagine that this would motivate me to dive deep into a hobby and/or get out of the house!

For me, that logic is what made sense.  I look at everything about our lives as one collective set of obligations.  I'm not working, so the "make money" obligation falls 100% to DH.  (Or maybe 90%, if you consider me managing the investments and finances.)  That eats up much of his time.  If he's spending 50 hours a week on that, it doesn't feel fair to me that I spend the 50 (or 25, depending on how you look at it) hours a week that it frees up for me to then do stuff that is for me, instead of for us.  Or that's for fun, rather than for practicality.  Otherwise, he's working 50 hours a week and doing chores for maybe 15, while I'm only doing 15 hours of work for the household.  If I take on 10 of his 15, I still have plenty of free time, plus time to do "us" things that might otherwise not have happened at all, and his burden is lightened a bit.   IOW, the time he's buying by working seems like it should be at least partly time I buy back for him by doing more chores.  That way, we both benefit with more leisure time based on the fact I'm not working. 

If we had separate finances, I can see how I'd look at it differently though. 

Imma

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2021, 03:25:26 PM »
But that reasoning assumes there's still a need for money. So before FI. That seems fair. But what if you are FI (together) and one half of the couple decides to quit work, but the other loves their job and doesn't want to quit? I can imagine I wouldn't be too happy doing most of the chores if I was retired while my s/o could retire (and pick up his fair share of chores) but didn't? At that point work would be more like a hobby and not necessarily a more important hobby than those of the FIRE'd woman?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 04:50:10 AM by Imma »

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2021, 04:04:02 PM »
But that reasoning assumes there's still a need for money. So before FI. That seems fair. But what if you are FI (together) and one half of the couple decides to quit work, but the other loves their job and doesn't want to quit? I can imagine I wouldn't be too happy doing most of the chores if I was retired while my s/o could retire (and pick up his fair share of choice) but didn't? At that point work would be more like a hobby and not necessarily a more important hobby than those of the FIRE'd woman?
That is a really good question and one I donít have an answer to. Work doesnít trump whatever else Iíd you donít need the money, but then in that case should work be viewed as something closer to a hobby that you do because you want to, not because you have to?

I occasionally have to tamp down resentment towards my husbandís job when it means meetings at dinner time. It was easier before when it was bringing home great bacon to advance us towards our goals. But now that we are well past our initial FIRE goal and More doesnít bring anything different for our lives than Enough, then I donít have as much patience for the meeting. But hopefully it is all a temporary thing.

The Drawing Bird

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2021, 01:21:52 AM »
But what if you are FI (together) and one half of the couple decides to quit work, but the other loves their job and doesn't want to quit? ... At that point work would be more like a hobby and not necessarily a more important hobby than those of the FIRE'd woman?

+1
In that case, I would weigh their work time with the same importance (ability to offset chores) as your hobbies!  You're right, though- the calculus gets a little mushy with things like this.

Villanelle

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2021, 11:38:36 AM »
But that reasoning assumes there's still a need for money. So before FI. That seems fair. But what if you are FI (together) and one half of the couple decides to quit work, but the other loves their job and doesn't want to quit? I can imagine I wouldn't be too happy doing most of the chores if I was retired while my s/o could retire (and pick up his fair share of chores) but didn't? At that point work would be more like a hobby and not necessarily a more important hobby than those of the FIRE'd woman?

Would outsourcing the chores be an option?  If one party wants to continue working (and some of this might depend on *why* they want to continue working, as well as how finances are handled), then they can pick up their share of the chores by paying for the housekeeper and the lawn service, or similar.  Or the fluff and fold service, or meal prep, or whatever makes the most sense.  IOW, one party spends ~10 hours a week on chores and the other pays for ~10 hours of labor so that it doesn't fall to the first party. 

That way, each party is in effect covering half of the chores, one with money and the other with labor.  The money would come from the same place that all hobby money comes from, whatever that looks like in the framework of finances the couple has set up, since it's basically an expense created by party 2's desire to engage in their work hobby.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2021, 12:00:00 PM »
But that reasoning assumes there's still a need for money. So before FI. That seems fair. But what if you are FI (together) and one half of the couple decides to quit work, but the other loves their job and doesn't want to quit? I can imagine I wouldn't be too happy doing most of the chores if I was retired while my s/o could retire (and pick up his fair share of chores) but didn't? At that point work would be more like a hobby and not necessarily a more important hobby than those of the FIRE'd woman?

The fact that my DH works, means we aren't travelling anywhere, like to our cabin. He just told me I could go alone or with a friend. Because of corona we are now supposed to stay put as much as possible. But I do resent him a bit for that I need to do all my outdoor stuff alone. It is only for 3 months, but it is most of the snow winter in this area. Now if I want to go skiing together, I need to use the crowded weekends, which I prefer to avoid.

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2021, 02:00:35 PM »
In the first two months, I did feel like he expected me to pick up more of the chores around the house. I can't really tell if it's really his expectation or my own imagination. Anyway, this is the 4th month now and I care less about the chores so I do what I feel I want to do. He hasn't complained (he has way lower standard of cleanliness than I do so maybe that's why lol) and I am less stressed out about it.
We talked about outsourcing cleaning and hiring someone to do it but haven't done so. I'm very nervous about letting anyone in our house during COVID.




The fact that my DH works, means we aren't travelling anywhere, like to our cabin. He just told me I could go alone or with a friend. Because of corona we are now supposed to stay put as much as possible. But I do resent him a bit for that I need to do all my outdoor stuff alone. It is only for 3 months, but it is most of the snow winter in this area. Now if I want to go skiing together, I need to use the crowded weekends, which I prefer to avoid.

I can relate to this. I love to travel and go on a camping trip but we can only go on weekends because he needs to work on weekdays and we can't really avoid the crowds on weekends!

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #87 on: January 26, 2021, 02:11:05 PM »
Had a very brief chat with my husband about this, to which his response was "Well of course we'll keep splitting things evenly." Because he's great like that.

Fortunately, it's pretty easy to tell who's doing how much with our chore app, so I don't expect it'll be too hard to hold him to that.

The one wrinkle is that if we do have a baby while I'm RE but before he pulls the plug, we've agreed that I'll be pulling the majority of the weight there -- just because there's no real choice when one person has a full-time job and the other doesn't. Babies are very time-consuming. Although we have also talked about doing childcare at some point down the line; it's in our budget, so it's an option that would be available, if I wanted it. (And that would be post-COVID.)

Oh, and one other thing is that we don't do cooking in our chore app, because it's a little trickier to track that way. Honestly, it's been a pretty reasonable split between us anyway, but I do end up doing a bit more, especially if there's some recipe I'm excited about. I'm fine with that -- especially since a lot of the extra cooking I do ends up being just for me. (I like to eat a lot more vegetarian food and desserts than he does, that kind of thing.)

sui generis

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2021, 02:34:59 PM »
Upon reflection, one slightly weird thing for me has been that I do my chores spread out throughout the week whereas DH does his on the weekend, and then I'm sitting there just reading a book or something and I can't help but feel lazy. Maybe I should shift my chores to the weekend too, so I can avoid that feeling, but I do really prefer sprinkling them over the course of the week. OTOH, this method would mean that our entire house was clean all at once, so there are certainly several pros for switching it up.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2021, 12:59:09 AM »
Oh, and one other thing is that we don't do cooking in our chore app, because it's a little trickier to track that way. Honestly, it's been a pretty reasonable split between us anyway, but I do end up doing a bit more, especially if there's some recipe I'm excited about. I'm fine with that -- especially since a lot of the extra cooking I do ends up being just for me. (I like to eat a lot more vegetarian food and desserts than he does, that kind of thing.)

I am doing this as well. In the past we would normally alternate cooking every other day. Nowadays I cook between 5 to 7 times a week. Since a few months I am cooking from a Turkish cookbook and from budgetbytes. I have a whole pile of recipees I would like to try out, rather sooner than later, as the book was from the library. Now I bought the cheaper part 1 from the same writer and have started there.
Therefore I have taken controll of grocery shopping, to make sure I have all the ingredients. And also because I have kickback CC cards for groceries, that DH doesn't want to get. I also like baking bread and need to do so a few times a week to make enough to not have to buy. Alternative would be to just buy bread. Sometimes when I am totally uninspired, I ask DH to cook. It is all voluntarily, as it is my hobby to do cooking and learning new dishes.

And in the foraging season I also preserve a lot of food, like plants or mushrooms. This isn't exactly cooking, but takes a lot of time in the kitchen. Again, all voluntarily as it is my hobby.

mwulff

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2021, 12:16:52 AM »
I'm posting to follow as I am in the inverse situation. My wife is the primary breadwinner and loves her job.

But I am wondering how much flak I will get from our circle of people when I quit and she works.

As for dividing chores I would personally be ok with a 60/40 split in my direction. I love cooking and listening to e-books so I would probably do most of it voluntarily.

Anyway, even though I'm not the wife here thanks for all your posts and insights. They have been useful.

Morning Glory

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2021, 05:37:04 AM »
I'm posting to follow as I am in the inverse situation. My wife is the primary breadwinner and loves her job.

But I am wondering how much flak I will get from our circle of people when I quit and she works.

As for dividing chores I would personally be ok with a 60/40 split in my direction. I love cooking and listening to e-books so I would probably do most of it voluntarily.

Anyway, even though I'm not the wife here thanks for all your posts and insights. They have been useful.

My DH did not get flak for quitting, but we have little children in an area with insanely expensive daycare, so it's quite normal here. I have been the primary breadwinner for 10+ years but he always had a part time job until Covid hit.

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2021, 05:52:29 AM »
I'm posting to follow as I am in the inverse situation. My wife is the primary breadwinner and loves her job.

But I am wondering how much flak I will get from our circle of people when I quit and she works.

As for dividing chores I would personally be ok with a 60/40 split in my direction. I love cooking and listening to e-books so I would probably do most of it voluntarily.

Anyway, even though I'm not the wife here thanks for all your posts and insights. They have been useful.

It will really depend on the type of people that you socialize with and what you consider "flack".


mwulff

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2021, 03:08:42 PM »
... snip

My DH did not get flak for quitting, but we have little children in an area with insanely expensive daycare, so it's quite normal here. I have been the primary breadwinner for 10+ years but he always had a part time job until Covid hit.

I guess it's a little different here because we have no children and even if we did childcare costs are very reasonable where we live. I guess here in Denmark having any Stay-at-home adult is indeed very rare.



mwulff

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2021, 03:14:52 PM »
It will really depend on the type of people that you socialize with and what you consider "flack".

I guess I'm pretty thick-skinned and my close circle of friends would understand why I prefer not to work.

I do have one example that surprised me:

Imagine being at a birthday party at a friends place with a lot of people that you only barely know. Well, plans were being discussed what people were doing and careers, when I was asked about my plans I told them that I was planning a 3 month sabbatical to exercise and relax. The reaction of two women was priceless. They both turned to my wife and asked indignantly "and you are just okay supporting him like THAT?". The undercurrent being that any man who didn't make any money was not worth keeping.

Afterwards my wife and I were pretty certain that they wouldn't have said anything if my wife had taken 3 months off from work. Ohh the irony.. :)


LightTripper

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #95 on: January 29, 2021, 03:57:33 PM »
Some people really are vile.  I can understand a little envy, and a lot of interest.  But what is there to judge?
I also strongly suspect if your wife had said it they at least would have waited until you were out of the room to bitch about her .... :)

My actual friends are all encouraging me to do less.  It will be interesting to see whether acquaintances may get judgemental - though I'm not sure it should be that obvious to most people (except other people with free time, who presumably will not judge!)

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #96 on: January 29, 2021, 04:09:43 PM »
It will really depend on the type of people that you socialize with and what you consider "flack".

I guess I'm pretty thick-skinned and my close circle of friends would understand why I prefer not to work.

I do have one example that surprised me:

Imagine being at a birthday party at a friends place with a lot of people that you only barely know. Well, plans were being discussed what people were doing and careers, when I was asked about my plans I told them that I was planning a 3 month sabbatical to exercise and relax. The reaction of two women was priceless. They both turned to my wife and asked indignantly "and you are just okay supporting him like THAT?". The undercurrent being that any man who didn't make any money was not worth keeping.

Afterwards my wife and I were pretty certain that they wouldn't have said anything if my wife had taken 3 months off from work. Ohh the irony.. :)

Lol, yes, my previous ex was unemployed for a period and I got a lot of flack as to why on earth I would date him, that is, until they figured out how rich his family was...which was also hilarious because it's not like he was getting a cent from them.

Oh the silly assumptions people make.

That said, my ex was a fucking asshat who should have just gotten a damn job, so they weren't wrong on their first judgement. Lol.

Imma

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2021, 04:24:54 PM »
It will really depend on the type of people that you socialize with and what you consider "flack".

I guess I'm pretty thick-skinned and my close circle of friends would understand why I prefer not to work.

I do have one example that surprised me:

Imagine being at a birthday party at a friends place with a lot of people that you only barely know. Well, plans were being discussed what people were doing and careers, when I was asked about my plans I told them that I was planning a 3 month sabbatical to exercise and relax. The reaction of two women was priceless. They both turned to my wife and asked indignantly "and you are just okay supporting him like THAT?". The undercurrent being that any man who didn't make any money was not worth keeping.

Afterwards my wife and I were pretty certain that they wouldn't have said anything if my wife had taken 3 months off from work. Ohh the irony.. :)

Lol, yes, my previous ex was unemployed for a period and I got a lot of flack as to why on earth I would date him, that is, until they figured out how rich his family was...which was also hilarious because it's not like he was getting a cent from them.

Oh the silly assumptions people make.

That said, my ex was a fucking asshat who should have just gotten a damn job, so they weren't wrong on their first judgement. Lol.

People are often genuinly baffled when they find out what kind of work Mr Imma does. Especially coworkers, because I can't be vague around my job title/salary around them like I usually am. They know his income must be lower and his job has very little status. They don't really know what to say. From their expressions I think they are either feeling sorry for me that I'm stuck with such a lazy, deadbeat guy or they think he must have had a mental break or something.  People are very, very nasty to men who don't work or earn less than their female partner - both women and other men.

Actually, what I admire about him is that he has many talents and that he chooses to apply them to what brings him most joy, not to what society thinks he should be doing. He gets negative reactions all the time about being a "kept" man. We are actually both financially self-sufficient and he could live perfectly well on his income only. But that's besides the point. Even if I paid the bills, that would be totally acceptable if he was female. A lot of my male coworkers have SAH wives.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2021, 04:34:10 PM »
Interesting post. If our finances play out as hoped, I'll be FIREing in a couple of years, and my husband will continue to work, per his choice. I've saved up plenty for retirement on my own & there are some compounding health factors that will benefit from me dialing down my career (particularly the international travel). We both are high earners, although I'm currently more senior & making more (we work at the same company).

We have pretty clear division of labor currently, so I'm not super worried about that changing drastically. I definitely do more parenting, & more overall labor (when taking into account the planning/organizing/etc). But, my husband works more, so it's not as though he's sitting around while I work. He's the least lazy person I've ever met, and I consider myself a hard core productivity person. Our kids will also be a junior & senior in high school when FIRE happens, so parenting looks quite different, and has a shorter "in the house" life span by then.

What is top of mind for me when I FIRE is really about the control & planning of money. This is about me & my control issues, definitely not about my husband. We currently have our own accounts, and his check covers the mortgage, I cover everything else. When I FIRE, the mortgage will be paid, and he'll cover all of the expenses. I'm having a really weird mental block on him taking over paying all of the other bills. The budgeting, the planning, the tracking. In fact, I'm thinking of asking him to transfer his check to my account and/or adding me to his account (which, he'd happily do, if I ask), so that I can do the budgeting, planning bill paying. This suggests to me that I really need to feel in control & financially secure (no surprise), but I'll have to give more thought on how to approach that in the next few years.

Malcat

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Re: Women mustachians whose husbands/SOs still work
« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2021, 06:22:23 PM »
It will really depend on the type of people that you socialize with and what you consider "flack".

I guess I'm pretty thick-skinned and my close circle of friends would understand why I prefer not to work.

I do have one example that surprised me:

Imagine being at a birthday party at a friends place with a lot of people that you only barely know. Well, plans were being discussed what people were doing and careers, when I was asked about my plans I told them that I was planning a 3 month sabbatical to exercise and relax. The reaction of two women was priceless. They both turned to my wife and asked indignantly "and you are just okay supporting him like THAT?". The undercurrent being that any man who didn't make any money was not worth keeping.

Afterwards my wife and I were pretty certain that they wouldn't have said anything if my wife had taken 3 months off from work. Ohh the irony.. :)

Lol, yes, my previous ex was unemployed for a period and I got a lot of flack as to why on earth I would date him, that is, until they figured out how rich his family was...which was also hilarious because it's not like he was getting a cent from them.

Oh the silly assumptions people make.

That said, my ex was a fucking asshat who should have just gotten a damn job, so they weren't wrong on their first judgement. Lol.

People are often genuinly baffled when they find out what kind of work Mr Imma does. Especially coworkers, because I can't be vague around my job title/salary around them like I usually am. They know his income must be lower and his job has very little status. They don't really know what to say. From their expressions I think they are either feeling sorry for me that I'm stuck with such a lazy, deadbeat guy or they think he must have had a mental break or something.  People are very, very nasty to men who don't work or earn less than their female partner - both women and other men.

Actually, what I admire about him is that he has many talents and that he chooses to apply them to what brings him most joy, not to what society thinks he should be doing. He gets negative reactions all the time about being a "kept" man. We are actually both financially self-sufficient and he could live perfectly well on his income only. But that's besides the point. Even if I paid the bills, that would be totally acceptable if he was female. A lot of my male coworkers have SAH wives.

Interesting.

I made more than double what DH made until I retired last year. No one ever blinked about it. However, that's probably because we both made 6 figures. Had he been working a lower than median income job, it may have been different, although a number of my female colleagues have low earning spouses and it's not perceived poorly in my social circles. There are a number of stay at home dads as well.

I caught flack for my ex because there was no reason for him to be depressingly jobless and everyone knew it.