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General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: smoghat on October 17, 2019, 08:54:58 PM

Title: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: smoghat on October 17, 2019, 08:54:58 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/17/style/rich-people-things.html

Thought this would be interesting.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: mstr d on October 20, 2019, 11:54:27 PM
The more money I have the safer I feel. More is better. Stil working after Fire :).
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Linea_Norway on October 21, 2019, 02:52:30 AM
Someone recently posted an interview that was done with truly rich people, net worth >25M $.

The really rich don't retire, because they have an anxiety that they still don't have enough stash. On average they want 20-25% more stash. They are also worried about their children and don't trust that their children will make good decisions about money. They can't control their children.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: mrmoonymartian on October 21, 2019, 03:16:19 AM
Adam Smith:
"It is because mankind are disposed to sympathize more entirely with our joy than with our sorrow, that we make parade of our riches, and conceal our poverty.  Nothing is so mortifying as to be obliged to expose our distress to the view of the public, and to feel, that though our situation is open to the eyes of all mankind, no mortal conceives for us the half of what we suffer.  Nay, it is chiefly from this regard to the sentiments of mankind, that we pursue riches and avoid poverty.  For to what purpose is all the toil and bustle of this world?  What is the end of avarice and ambition, of the pursuit of wealth, of power, and preheminence?  Is it to supply the necessities of nature?  The wages of the meanest labourer can supply them. ... To be observed, to be attended to, to be taken notice of with sympathy, complacency, and approbation, are all the advantages which we can propose to derive from it.  It is the vanity, not the ease, or the pleasure, which interests us.  But vanity is always founded upon the belief of our being the object of attention and approbation."
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: newloginuser on October 21, 2019, 07:23:07 AM
I don't know anyone with over $25MM so this is pure speculation, if you work a job that pays that much, why would you give it up? I would assume you either works so long to get to that point, or you work in a field where you could be replaced at any moment and no longer get that income. Or you own your own business, in which case I'm guessing the stress level and demand isn't that great if you can pull in that sort of money annually.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: RWD on October 21, 2019, 09:04:25 AM
Quote
One recent Harvard survey (https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=53540) of 4,000 millionaires found that people worth $8 million or more were scarcely happier than those worth $1 million.

Very interesting. I guess this is sort of the net worth equivalent of diminishing returns of happiness for higher incomes.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on October 21, 2019, 09:29:04 AM
I don't know anyone with over $25MM so this is pure speculation, if you work a job that pays that much, why would you give it up? I would assume you either works so long to get to that point, or you work in a field where you could be replaced at any moment and no longer get that income. Or you own your own business, in which case I'm guessing the stress level and demand isn't that great if you can pull in that sort of money annually.

Because your time alive is finite, the amount you have left is at best a guess and most people work for money so they can pay to do other things.

In other words, the whole underlying premise of this forum. 

Once you have ďenoughĒ it shouldnít matter whether your job pays $1MM/year or $10/hour.  You are then trading your time (which you have ever less of) for money (which you have ever less need for).  Of course many people find additional value through their jobs, which may being a ďproductive member of societyĒ or ďmaking a differenceĒ.  If your job fits that description and you enjoy doing it, all the more power to you to keep working.  But for many, many others, they have conflated their identity of self with their job title.  When that happens they equate quitting the job with quitting who they are, which is just sad and erroneous.

OMY syndrome seems to high high earners harder than lower wage people, precisely because another year could bring in a substantial amount of additional money, which can always be spent on something (a third vacation home? A yacht?).  But ultimately they have less time and more money
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: ROF Expat on October 21, 2019, 11:35:19 AM
I have friends and acquaintances who most people would characterize as very wealthy who continue working far beyond any "need" to do so.  In some cases, they love their work.  Some feel compelled to continue to build generational businesses that they inherited.  Some simply like challenges.  Some want their children to see them working to underscore their expectation that they will work and contribute rather than simply inherit money and a life of luxury. 
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: newloginuser on October 21, 2019, 12:45:36 PM
I don't know anyone with over $25MM so this is pure speculation, if you work a job that pays that much, why would you give it up? I would assume you either works so long to get to that point, or you work in a field where you could be replaced at any moment and no longer get that income. Or you own your own business, in which case I'm guessing the stress level and demand isn't that great if you can pull in that sort of money annually.

Because your time alive is finite, the amount you have left is at best a guess and most people work for money so they can pay to do other things.

In other words, the whole underlying premise of this forum. 

Once you have ďenoughĒ it shouldnít matter whether your job pays $1MM/year or $10/hour.  You are then trading your time (which you have ever less of) for money (which you have ever less need for).  Of course many people find additional value through their jobs, which may being a ďproductive member of societyĒ or ďmaking a differenceĒ.  If your job fits that description and you enjoy doing it, all the more power to you to keep working.  But for many, many others, they have conflated their identity of self with their job title.  When that happens they equate quitting the job with quitting who they are, which is just sad and erroneous.

OMY syndrome seems to high high earners harder than lower wage people, precisely because another year could bring in a substantial amount of additional money, which can always be spent on something (a third vacation home? A yacht?).  But ultimately they have less time and more money

Sorry if my post wasn't clear. I do understand why people quit a job due to the finite amount of time. My overarching point was I would believe a greater population of people who make a 7 figure income or the super wealthy enjoy what they do, and wouldn't stop just because they have enough.

I'm sure to some degree, these people like to buy nicer things than is "needed". Like others have pointed out, some may be in a family business or inherited or have kids and want to show you can't just take life easy. If you work in corporate America or tech or healthcare or any other field where you make a significant income, I would think it took you quite some time to get there, and don't want to just "quit" after one year of finally making it. Also like you pointed out, I'm sure "one more year" sets in every year. But I bet life style inflation comes with it too.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: EndlessJourney on October 21, 2019, 01:11:05 PM
I think a lot of people who are ultra high net worth individuals come by it by starting their own business.

So there's a lot more pride, investment, ownership and identity involved in the work than someone who just punches a clock and gets compensated for sitting in cubicle.

Easy to see how it's hard to sell or let go of control something you may have built from scratch, especially if it's become that successful that it's made you very wealthy. I can totally understand wanting to continue pushing the ball further up the hill, to ultimately see how far you can get it.

It's not even about the money at that point.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 21, 2019, 06:35:49 PM
Some people love what they do

They want to give more to their family, charity and society

If a person works for money, they will quit as soon as they feel that they have enough

Some accomplishments are bigger than money
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: norajean on October 21, 2019, 06:50:03 PM
Self-made rich people are great at what they do and very competitive.  The money is just a way of keeping score.  They are always competing against better players who have a higher score, urging them on.  Most work happily until at least 80. To retire would be to admit defeat and to also lose their favorite activity.  It is a different lifestyle to being a downtrodden wage slave, stuck in a cubicle, the hobnail boot of upper management constantly on your throat.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Hikester on October 21, 2019, 10:29:15 PM
Itís probably because humans are wired in a way that losing something is way more emotionally difficult than gaining something. The more you have to lose the more you are held back by the golden handcuffs. Itís the opposite of true freedom but not quitting provides psychological safety in your mind. That is why OMY syndrome is so common. Giving up a high salary is much harder than a $10 an hour job.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: LoanShark on October 22, 2019, 03:13:32 PM
I don't know anyone with over $25MM so this is pure speculation, if you work a job that pays that much, why would you give it up? I would assume you either works so long to get to that point, or you work in a field where you could be replaced at any moment and no longer get that income. Or you own your own business, in which case I'm guessing the stress level and demand isn't that great if you can pull in that sort of money annually.

Because your time alive is finite, the amount you have left is at best a guess and most people work for money so they can pay to do other things.

In other words, the whole underlying premise of this forum. 

Once you have ďenoughĒ it shouldnít matter whether your job pays $1MM/year or $10/hour.  You are then trading your time (which you have ever less of) for money (which you have ever less need for).  Of course many people find additional value through their jobs, which may being a ďproductive member of societyĒ or ďmaking a differenceĒ.  If your job fits that description and you enjoy doing it, all the more power to you to keep working.  But for many, many others, they have conflated their identity of self with their job title.  When that happens they equate quitting the job with quitting who they are, which is just sad and erroneous.

OMY syndrome seems to high high earners harder than lower wage people, precisely because another year could bring in a substantial amount of additional money, which can always be spent on something (a third vacation home? A yacht?).  But ultimately they have less time and more money

Needed this reminder. Gracias!
Title: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 22, 2019, 06:05:10 PM
I don't know anyone with over $25MM so this is pure speculation, if you work a job that pays that much, why would you give it up? I would assume you either works so long to get to that point, or you work in a field where you could be replaced at any moment and no longer get that income. Or you own your own business, in which case I'm guessing the stress level and demand isn't that great if you can pull in that sort of money annually.

I know a few individuals that have over $25MM and from that small sample size I can say that theyíre extremely passionate at what they do, work crazy hard, and strongly believe that their company provides a significant benefit to society

If someone wants to keep contributing to society well beyond financial need, it should be celebrated. Unless there is a deep-seated insecurity, thereís absolutely no reason to put a less-than-positive outlook on it.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: maizefolk on October 22, 2019, 07:36:19 PM
OMY syndrome seems to high high earners harder than lower wage people, precisely because another year could bring in a substantial amount of additional money, which can always be spent on something (a third vacation home? A yacht?).  But ultimately they have less time and more money

I agree that OMY syndrome hits high earners harder, but I think it has less to do with wanting to buy extra things and more to do with the ratio of how long it's take to turn $X before they retire, and how long it'd take for them to earn the same $X after they retired (if they ever had to return to work because it turned out they hadn't saved enough).

For a person earning $40k/year ($20/hour), it may be easier use the the "well if I hit a sequence of returns issue I'm get a part time job earning $12/hour at target/starbucks etc" as an effective way to combat fear than for a person earning $160k/year ($80/hour).

Instead too many high earning people seem fall into the trap of trying to push for lower and lower withdrawal rates as their way to insure against sequence of returns risk.
Title: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nancyfrank232 on October 22, 2019, 08:48:06 PM
Itís improbable that a person earning an hourly or annual wage  will become a HNWI

Itís alway OMY for wage earners
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: ROF Expat on October 23, 2019, 12:47:33 AM
Itís improbable that a person earning an hourly or annual wage  will become a HNWI

Itís alway OMY for wage earners

I guess you are correct that it is "improbable" since most people haven't done it, I disagree that it is always omy for wage earners. 

To my mind, it is surprising that we don't have a lot more HNWIs in America.  If you go by the fairly standard definition of $1M investable, reaching that point has long been doable for wage-earners in America.  In 1969, median household income was around $9,400.  If a person invested 10% of that salary the first year and then $940 a year, it would likely have become a million investable by now, when the person might be 68 years old.  And that assumes never increasing investments with wage increases, and never having any windfall (like a modest inheritance). 

People with steady, halfway decent jobs, who refuse to get on the consumer treadmill and who invest wisely almost can't help but become HNWI at some point.  This forum is filled with people who have done it or are in the process of doing it.  The Millionaire Next Door is worth reading if you haven't done so. 

Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: marty998 on October 23, 2019, 04:07:36 AM
Itís improbable that a person earning an hourly or annual wage  will become a HNWI

Itís alway OMY for wage earners

I guess you are correct that it is "improbable" since most people haven't done it, I disagree that it is always omy for wage earners. 

To my mind, it is surprising that we don't have a lot more HNWIs in America.  If you go by the fairly standard definition of $1M investable, reaching that point has long been doable for wage-earners in America.  In 1969, median household income was around $9,400.  If a person invested 10% of that salary the first year and then $940 a year, it would likely have become a million investable by now, when the person might be 68 years old.  And that assumes never increasing investments with wage increases, and never having any windfall (like a modest inheritance). 

People with steady, halfway decent jobs, who refuse to get on the consumer treadmill and who invest wisely almost can't help but become HNWI at some point.  This forum is filled with people who have done it or are in the process of doing it.  The Millionaire Next Door is worth reading if you haven't done so.

Corporate America has never failed to invent a "want" and then then sell the product to solve that want to the public. So you might find that the $940 a year mysteriously gets diverted into the thin air....
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: RAchip on November 29, 2019, 08:43:39 AM
My net wort is over $25mm.  I pretty much quit working 3 years ago (at 52).  I was making $1-3mm/ year than I had a truly massive year with a big business deal.  It seemed to me that the incremental benefit of continuing to slave away was not worth it.  Working and paying over 50% of what you make to the govt was very disheartening to me.  I still ďworkĒ in the sense that I manage my money myself and have a big family that I oversee.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 04, 2019, 06:32:28 AM
^ I am sure its different in everyones scenario that has that kind of money. I would expect that in most part they have people running there day to day operations and are continually doing the fun part and looking into other investments to build there empire. I know people that have done that with alot less. Its the start up thats the fun part if/when it succeeds.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: talltexan on December 04, 2019, 07:15:09 AM
@RAchip , if I may ask:

Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: freya on December 04, 2019, 07:57:05 AM
Interesting article.

I agree that it's a totally different situation for entrepreneurs who hold responsibility for and/or own a successful business, and employees working for a wage.  There are certainly high paying jobs that can result in high net worths. The NY times article completely ignored this latter group.  When the article talks about people continuing to work despite being financially independent, they are thinking of jobs as they used to exist 20 years ago - not the ones that exist now.  In some ways, the deterioration in job "quality of life" has been much worse at the high end of the pay scale.

Academic medicine (where I am) used to be a pleasant and fairly low-stress environment, with time for scholarly pursuits and a largely self-directed career trajectory.  In return, you accepted a relatively low income compared to working in the private arena.  And, you could count on working into your 80s and enjoying it, with your responsibilities gradually evolving toward mentoring and scholarly activity, and away from day to day tasks.  This has changed.  The pay has gone up, but the pressure to produce, the administrative burdens, and incidents of poor treatment from on high, have gone up astronomically.  Continuing to work as you age is no longer realistic, and burnout is rampant.  Many, however, are hanging on and don't quite understand that the world they signed up for no longer exists.

The FIRE movement and the shift toward entrepreneurship are the antidotes to this general trend of crappy treatment of employees.  I just feel sorry for the people who believe so deeply that life-long work is what we were made for, that they're unable to adjust to the new reality.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: maizefolk on December 04, 2019, 10:48:58 AM
Academic medicine (where I am) used to be a pleasant and fairly low-stress environment, with time for scholarly pursuits and a largely self-directed career trajectory.  In return, you accepted a relatively low income compared to working in the private arena.  And, you could count on working into your 80s and enjoying it, with your responsibilities gradually evolving toward mentoring and scholarly activity, and away from day to day tasks.  This has changed.  The pay has gone up, but the pressure to produce, the administrative burdens, and incidents of poor treatment from on high, have gone up astronomically.  Continuing to work as you age is no longer realistic, and burnout is rampant.  Many, however, are hanging on and don't quite understand that the world they signed up for no longer exists.

A friend's mother is in the same boat (senior physician at a university run med school/hospital) so has lots of horror stories to tell about poor treatment and unrealistic expectations. While the pay is quite good they have almost nothing saved as it was assumed she'd be able to continue to work the same job until retirement age and a lot of money had been going to support family outside the country -- first generation immigrants. Feeling trapped and having to grit your teeth and take poor treatment is a miserable situation. I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: smoghat on December 04, 2019, 09:01:18 PM
Very, very few people are irreplaceable. Take Steve Jobs, he seemed irreplaceable but he was. But the people who continue to work, long past their prime, use up resources that likely could be much better allocated.

I used to teach at a university prior to FIRE. I was done at age 48 when I had the money to FIRE. But thereís one clown with a British accent who is nearly 90 years old and he still teaches there. My hunch is he makes well north of $200,000 a year, which could employ three starting professors. He hasnít been on his game in twenty years and even then, never was all that. But the millennials love him because he is a symbol of another generation. Great. But his presence prevents better faculty from taking his place. If he wanted to contribute, he could write some books. But he always was a terrible writer, so I guess thatís why he keeps working.
Title: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 04, 2019, 10:02:29 PM
Very, very few people are irreplaceable. Take Steve Jobs, he seemed irreplaceable but he was. But the people who continue to work, long past their prime, use up resources that likely could be much better allocated.

I used to teach at a university prior to FIRE. I was done at age 48 when I had the money to FIRE. But thereís one clown with a British accent who is nearly 90 years old and he still teaches there. My hunch is he makes well north of $200,000 a year, which could employ three starting professors. He hasnít been on his game in twenty years and even then, never was all that. But the millennials love him because he is a symbol of another generation. Great. But his presence prevents better faculty from taking his place. If he wanted to contribute, he could write some books. But he always was a terrible writer, so I guess thatís why he keeps working.

If he wants to work let him work

Co-workers used to say the same about me when I worked and had a NW of $5m

I do what I want and Iím glad this senior professor does the same. If there was faculty that is better than him then they should be able to take his place. The market says otherwise. Donít hate the player, hate the game
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nancyfrank232 on December 04, 2019, 10:24:13 PM
My net wort is over $25mm.  I pretty much quit working 3 years ago (at 52).  I was making $1-3mm/ year than I had a truly massive year with a big business deal.  It seemed to me that the incremental benefit of continuing to slave away was not worth it.  Working and paying over 50% of what you make to the govt was very disheartening to me.  I still ďworkĒ in the sense that I manage my money myself and have a big family that I oversee.

Thatís awesome!

Congrats!
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Telecaster on December 04, 2019, 10:53:52 PM
The mindset of making your nut and then checking out of the workforce is extremely rare.  If people are good at what they do and are successful, they tend to continue doing those same things.   Similar in a lot of ways to people with FIRE with a high net worth, but continue the frugal habits that allowed them to FIRE in the first place. 
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: freya on December 05, 2019, 08:34:05 AM
A friend's mother is in the same boat (senior physician at a university run med school/hospital) so has lots of horror stories to tell about poor treatment and unrealistic expectations. While the pay is quite good they have almost nothing saved as it was assumed she'd be able to continue to work the same job until retirement age and a lot of money had been going to support family outside the country -- first generation immigrants. Feeling trapped and having to grit your teeth and take poor treatment is a miserable situation. I'm sorry.

Sorry to hear about your friend's mother.  So many of my colleagues are in similar situations, although for less altruistic reasons (e.g. choosing to live in a very expensive suburb and keeping up with the Joneses).  She could however turn things around and at least put a ticking clock on the number of years that she has to put up with with this.  You could also point her to Dropout Club, which is a forum for physicians who are looking for alternative jobs & careers.

I'm lucky actually...I got into research where life is decidedly better, and of course am well positioned to quit when I want.   The people I feel sorry for are my nieces who are just entering the workforce now.  I suspect that what's happened with medicine is not unique to that field. I think awareness of FIRE is practically a necessity for them.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: maizefolk on December 05, 2019, 08:37:31 AM
Will pass on the link to the dropout club, thanks!
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Gone Fishing on February 10, 2020, 02:52:06 PM
"I'd trade it all, for just a little bit more."

-Montgomery Burns
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: greg_atlanta on February 10, 2020, 09:00:10 PM
Because they have no life outside of work.  Or they're avoiding their life by hiding behind their work.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on February 10, 2020, 09:27:07 PM
For some passion, and for many: insecurity and greed.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Chris Pascale on March 02, 2020, 02:51:24 PM
The criticism of those who work is such an odd thing. I mean, how long can you sip rum punch? Obviously, we should find out, but unless you're committed to drowning in the things, or reaching a mortally diabetic state from them, you're gonna want something constructive to do.

My favorite example is Hank Aaron. In his baseball career, which ended in the 70's, Aaron made about $1,000,000! Many people today will agree they could live forever on that amount, especially with what CD and bond rates were back then. Aaron invested - not sure how the deal was structured (perhaps he just lent his name and physical presence at a down payment) - into a car dealership in Atlanta so that he'd have an income producing asset.

Is Hank Aaron a greedy moron who, as the NYT posits about the working rich, is "afraid to face his existence"?
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: talltexan on March 02, 2020, 03:07:33 PM
On a scale of Allen Iverson to Magic Johnson, how would you rate Aaron's success at turning his meager athletic earnings (they would have doubled were he born ten years later) into business achievement?
Title: Re: Why don’t the rich stop working?
Post by: spartana on March 05, 2020, 02:40:54 PM
The criticism of those who work is such an odd thing. I mean, how long can you sip rum punch? Obviously, we should find out, but unless you're committed to drowning in the things, or reaching a mortally diabetic state from them, you're gonna want something constructive to do.

My favorite example is Hank Aaron. In his baseball career, which ended in the 70's, Aaron made about $1,000,000! Many people today will agree they could live forever on that amount, especially with what CD and bond rates were back then. Aaron invested - not sure how the deal was structured (perhaps he just lent his name and physical presence at a down payment) - into a car dealership in Atlanta so that he'd have an income producing asset.

Is Hank Aaron a greedy moron who, as the NYT posits about the working rich, is "afraid to face his existence"?
Is that what retirement is suppose to be like? Well damn, I guess I've been doing it all wrong.

Lots of people regardless of wealth or income want to continue working because they find meaning and purpose in the jobs. This includes low earners who love their profession just as it does the billionaires. Lots of people regardless of wealth or income want to retire because they can find more meaning and purpose in their life once job-free. And yes, also have some fun and a few midweek midday cocktails at a beach bar on occasion too ;-).
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Fomerly known as something on March 06, 2020, 05:16:53 AM
Also, I think with the wealthy, their life truly intersects with their work. Take President Trump (pre election), he flys down to Mar a Lago to golf for the weekend.  He leaves at noon on Thursday.  Has some meetings while golfing or having dinner at his club Friday to Monday and flys back to NY Monday night.  Heís working the whole time but not in the same manner that I am going to my office M-F.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: skip207 on March 07, 2020, 01:53:15 AM
I think people who work normal or normal ish jobs who are wealthy and could retire and live a very nice lifestyle don't see the value in their own time.  IMHO.

You get one life and each day is of value, every day you work you are basically chipping value off your time on this earth.  Will money make the remaining days "better"?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

There is also a curve where IMHO you get past the ability to retire and it just seems better to carry on.  I know a few people like this, they run their own business hands on, on the tools etc and they get to about 60, look at their life and think oh well this is all I know and they carry on.  Before you know it they are 70 and still going.  Money becomes less important to them and does not really have a value.  As such they often drop the ball when it comes to business and they end up doing stuff cheaper than they should and the result is they end up spending their own money to keep working.

I know one guy who is exaclty in this situation right now.  65 ish, business is not great but he does not want to stop so he is propping the place up.  He works for nothing, spends a fortune keeping the place going and could easily buy a nice villa somewhere warn and actually be better off financially.  I see it as sad tbh.  He could have retired at 50 but carried on.

I dont want to fall into that trap.  OMY on loop forever?  No thanks.

The *really* wealthy who "work" don't really work.  They schlep around on private jets and generally have several high level execs actually running their business / businesses in the background.  For them its a lifestyle, in fact a lot of their "work" is just a tax dodge.  That private jet flight from London to New York is of course for business purposes.... cough.

Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on March 07, 2020, 07:19:10 AM
The *really* wealthy who "work" don't really work.  They schlep around on private jets and generally have several high level execs actually running their business / businesses in the background.  For them its a lifestyle, in fact a lot of their "work" is just a tax dodge.  That private jet flight from London to New York is of course for business purposes.... cough.

I know a lot of people in that situation and that's kind of what it's like, but not the whole picture. Yes, it's definitely a lifestyle, but at a certain level your personal life becomes so inextricably enmeshed in your business that your lifestyle *is* your professional work and vice versa.

I do a lot of consulting in that world, and the line between my friends my clients and my colleagues is so blurred, it's almost non existent. There is no work/personal separation for me, and that's what I see among the CEO/President set that I know in my world.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Chris Pascale on March 08, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
On a scale of Allen Iverson to Magic Johnson, how would you rate Aaron's success at turning his meager athletic earnings (they would have doubled were he born ten years later) into business achievement?

Not being well-versed on the Iverson:Johnson metric, I have to defer.

Aaron had a pretty good interview some years back where he was asked what he thought he'd make if he was playing in the 2000's. In the past he'd always been pretty humble, like when asked about Barry Bonds HR stats. He claimed it wasn't for him to say anything about Bonds breaking his records, even if by some guy who at the end of his career was cracking homers into Jupiter when he wasn't nearly that great of a HR hitter in his youth.

In the one I'm thinking of the reporter asked Aaron what he'd be paid; he said at least what A-Rod made. The reporter was surprised and clarified that A-Rod was the highest paid player. Aaron didn't straight-up say, "I'm the greatest player who ever lived," but he did point out some things that said he was perhaps better than A-Rod.

Looking at his hits, HRs and batting avg., it seems obvious.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Chris Pascale on March 08, 2020, 08:02:22 PM
The criticism of those who work is such an odd thing. I mean, how long can you sip rum punch? Obviously, we should find out.



Is that what retirement is suppose to be like? Well damn, I guess I've been doing it all wrong.

Lots of people regardless of wealth or income want to continue working because they find meaning and purpose in the jobs. This includes low earners who love their profession just as it does the billionaires. Lots of people regardless of wealth or income want to retire because they can find more meaning and purpose in their life once job-free. And yes, also have some fun and a few midweek midday cocktails at a beach bar on occasion too ;-).

It's not too late! You can live your life right!
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: spartana on March 09, 2020, 05:28:09 PM
The criticism of those who work is such an odd thing. I mean, how long can you sip rum punch? Obviously, we should find out.



Is that what retirement is suppose to be like? Well damn, I guess I've been doing it all wrong.

Lots of people regardless of wealth or income want to continue working because they find meaning and purpose in the jobs. This includes low earners who love their profession just as it does the billionaires. Lots of people regardless of wealth or income want to retire because they can find more meaning and purpose in their life once job-free. And yes, also have some fun and a few midweek midday cocktails at a beach bar on occasion too ;-).

It's not too late! You can live your life right!
Well I do have TGIM morning mimosas on the beach after volleyball so I guess I'm on the right path to decadence. Now to work on.the debauchery!
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 09, 2020, 05:58:18 PM
Itís probably because humans are wired in a way that losing something is way more emotionally difficult than gaining something.

'Tis true.

 When  the value of one's portfolio declines significantly, the intensity of their unhappy feelings is 2.3-2.5 X the intensity of their happy feelings when the value of their portfolio rises significantly.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: talltexan on March 10, 2020, 07:29:51 AM
On a scale of Allen Iverson to Magic Johnson, how would you rate Aaron's success at turning his meager athletic earnings (they would have doubled were he born ten years later) into business achievement?

Not being well-versed on the Iverson:Johnson metric, I have to defer.

Aaron had a pretty good interview some years back where he was asked what he thought he'd make if he was playing in the 2000's. In the past he'd always been pretty humble, like when asked about Barry Bonds HR stats. He claimed it wasn't for him to say anything about Bonds breaking his records, even if by some guy who at the end of his career was cracking homers into Jupiter when he wasn't nearly that great of a HR hitter in his youth.

In the one I'm thinking of the reporter asked Aaron what he'd be paid; he said at least what A-Rod made. The reporter was surprised and clarified that A-Rod was the highest paid player. Aaron didn't straight-up say, "I'm the greatest player who ever lived," but he did point out some things that said he was perhaps better than A-Rod.

Looking at his hits, HRs and batting avg., it seems obvious.

Why is it strange for the best player to make the most money?

The A-Rod contract in 2000 was an outlier, yes, but the way the sport has grown (revenue-wise) is a different world compared to 1950-1973 (when Aaron was playing)
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Alien on April 11, 2020, 11:15:04 AM
Many will say they love their job but let's be honest, they're lobsters in a cage jockeying for status.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: StackOfCoins.com (Jay) on August 05, 2020, 01:54:18 PM
@nancyfrank232 explained it succinctly with the below:

"They want to give more to their family, charity and society

If a person works for money, they will quit as soon as they feel that they have enough

Some accomplishments are bigger than money"
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on August 05, 2020, 02:09:43 PM
Many will say they love their job but let's be honest, they're lobsters in a cage jockeying for status.

I don't think such a blanket statement is warranted (or correct).  A great number of successful people do find meaning in their jobs, and certainly some of them don't give a hoot about status.  I see  this a great deal in the NGO world, where a bunch of very successful people find a second career after making enough to retire several times over.  Instead,  core motivations for continuing to work at a fraction of their former pay is "to make a difference" and to "bring meaning" to their lives.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: smoghat on August 06, 2020, 09:54:08 PM
Many will say they love their job but let's be honest, they're lobsters in a cage jockeying for status.

Ah I like that!

I am not complaint about people like Elon Musk, who are genuinely doing something wild and new, but rich people who donít do anything important but continue to work.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 07, 2020, 05:29:57 AM
Many will say they love their job but let's be honest, they're lobsters in a cage jockeying for status.

Ah I like that!

I am not complaint about people like Elon Musk, who are genuinely doing something wild and new, but rich people who donít do anything important but continue to work.

This is such narrow thinking.

Unless we're Elon Musk, then those of us who choose to work even though we don't have to are somehow automatically boring?

MMM himself continues to do tons of profitable work after retiring, so how can you generalize on this site about people who do that?

I could give you countless examples of wealthy friends and family who continue to do really interesting work because it's so much part of who they are, and it means a lot to them.

Not everyone has a boring job.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: ol1970 on August 07, 2020, 08:58:38 AM
Many will say they love their job but let's be honest, they're lobsters in a cage jockeying for status.

Ah I like that!

I am not complaint about people like Elon Musk, who are genuinely doing something wild and new, but rich people who donít do anything important but continue to work.

This is such narrow thinking.

Unless we're Elon Musk, then those of us who choose to work even though we don't have to are somehow automatically boring?

MMM himself continues to do tons of profitable work after retiring, so how can you generalize on this site about people who do that?

I could give you countless examples of wealthy friends and family who continue to do really interesting work because it's so much part of who they are, and it means a lot to them.

Not everyone has a boring job.

Totally agree, I'm one of these boring 0.1%'ers who retired, but actually still earns a little money through part time consulting customers who's products are listed all over the "stupid stuff I'm lusting after post" in another forum section.  It is actually a ton of fun to work a few hours a week with interesting people and projects at my leisure, and hell it is cool to make $50k one week doing something you'd have done for fun anyway helping design a product that will be in most of your homes in a few years.

It cracks me up all of these people living such fulfilling awesome lives because they quit work at 30-35 and are "happy" living on $25-40K a year.   Trust me, watching YouTube videos of people doing cool stuff isn't the same as doing it yourself, don't let somebody convince you its not, and I'm sorry you can't do it on $25k a year.  Winning is not just about stopping working, people who are winning are ones that have the three areas covered; finances, health, and relationships.
 
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 07, 2020, 09:06:32 AM
Many will say they love their job but let's be honest, they're lobsters in a cage jockeying for status.

Ah I like that!

I am not complaint about people like Elon Musk, who are genuinely doing something wild and new, but rich people who donít do anything important but continue to work.

This is such narrow thinking.

Unless we're Elon Musk, then those of us who choose to work even though we don't have to are somehow automatically boring?

MMM himself continues to do tons of profitable work after retiring, so how can you generalize on this site about people who do that?

I could give you countless examples of wealthy friends and family who continue to do really interesting work because it's so much part of who they are, and it means a lot to them.

Not everyone has a boring job.

Totally agree, I'm one of these boring 0.1%'ers who retired, but actually still earns a little money through part time consulting customers who's products are listed all over the "stupid stuff I'm lusting after post" in another forum section.  It is actually a ton of fun to work a few hours a week with interesting people and projects at my leisure, and hell it is cool to make $50k one week doing something you'd have done for fun anyway helping design a product that will be in most of your homes in a few years.

It cracks me up all of these people living such fulfilling awesome lives because they quit work at 30-35 and are "happy" living on $25-40K a year.   Trust me, watching YouTube videos of people doing cool stuff isn't the same as doing it yourself, don't let somebody convince you its not, and I'm sorry you can't do it on $25k a year.  Winning is not just about stopping working, people who are winning are ones that have the three areas covered; finances, health, and relationships.

As much as I hate judgement about people who continue to work, I hate judgement about people who choose to live frugally much, MUCH more.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on August 07, 2020, 10:35:23 AM
Many will say they love their job but let's be honest, they're lobsters in a cage jockeying for status.

Ah I like that!

I am not complaint about people like Elon Musk, who are genuinely doing something wild and new, but rich people who donít do anything important but continue to work.

This is such narrow thinking.

Unless we're Elon Musk, then those of us who choose to work even though we don't have to are somehow automatically boring?

MMM himself continues to do tons of profitable work after retiring, so how can you generalize on this site about people who do that?

I could give you countless examples of wealthy friends and family who continue to do really interesting work because it's so much part of who they are, and it means a lot to them.

Not everyone has a boring job.

Totally agree, I'm one of these boring 0.1%'ers who retired, but actually still earns a little money through part time consulting customers who's products are listed all over the "stupid stuff I'm lusting after post" in another forum section.  It is actually a ton of fun to work a few hours a week with interesting people and projects at my leisure, and hell it is cool to make $50k one week doing something you'd have done for fun anyway helping design a product that will be in most of your homes in a few years.

It cracks me up all of these people living such fulfilling awesome lives because they quit work at 30-35 and are "happy" living on $25-40K a year.   Trust me, watching YouTube videos of people doing cool stuff isn't the same as doing it yourself, don't let somebody convince you its not, and I'm sorry you can't do it on $25k a year.  Winning is not just about stopping working, people who are winning are ones that have the three areas covered; finances, health, and relationships.

As much as I hate judgement about people who continue to work, I hate judgement about people who choose to live frugally much, MUCH more.

This rubbed me the wrong way too. 
To be clear, if you own your own home and are living on $25k/year as MMM advocates, your actual spending is in line with someone earning closer to $65k in a typical region but carrying a mortgage, moderate debt and saving a modest amount for retirement.  In either scenario that's well above the median household income in richest country on earth.

To imply that this is somehow a life of poverty or extreme frugality  (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/)is missing the point.

Spending $40k per year puts one ahead of more than 99% of people on this planet, and will land you above the majority of households even in the US
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: bacchi on August 07, 2020, 11:22:36 AM
Totally agree, I'm one of these boring 0.1%'ers who retired, but actually still earns a little money through part time consulting customers who's products are listed all over the "stupid stuff I'm lusting after post" in another forum section.  It is actually a ton of fun to work a few hours a week with interesting people and projects at my leisure, and hell it is cool to make $50k one week doing something you'd have done for fun anyway helping design a product that will be in most of your homes in a few years.

It cracks me up all of these people living such fulfilling awesome lives because they quit work at 30-35 and are "happy" living on $25-40K a year.   Trust me, watching YouTube videos of people doing cool stuff isn't the same as doing it yourself, don't let somebody convince you its not, and I'm sorry you can't do it on $25k a year.  Winning is not just about stopping working, people who are winning are ones that have the three areas covered; finances, health, and relationships.

$50k in a week? Shit, I make that in a day. I feel sad for those who waste time making $50k in a week when they can make it in a day like I do. No offense but, trust me, those people just feel like they're living. Winning is winning, amirite?
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: undercover on August 07, 2020, 11:58:19 AM
(https://stayhipp.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/son.jpg)

Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Ichabod on August 07, 2020, 12:46:59 PM
If you're rich from working, you're probably good at what you do.
If you're good at what you do, you probably have lots of autonomy.
If you have autonomy and are good at what you do, you may well enjoy what you do.

Work and compensation is a parabola. If you don't make much, you need to work a lot to get by. If you make a moderate amount, you're only giving up a moderate amount to stop working. If you make a lot, you're giving up more to stop working. The OMY threads are mostly by people who are well-compensated. If an additional year of work increases your stash by 10 or 20%, that's really tempting. If one more year only nets your stash 1 or 2%, what's the point?

I'm sure loss of identity and difficulty envisioning other options are also major factors. But if you're well-compensated and enjoy what you're doing, there's not much of an impetus to contemplate alternatives.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: talltexan on August 07, 2020, 12:47:58 PM
to defend @ol1970 , you guys did want to hear from a genuine rich person.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 07, 2020, 01:13:30 PM
to defend @ol1970 , you guys did want to hear from a genuine rich person.

It is true that a lot of wealthy people who continue to work do deeply malign the kind of life that a modest spend provides.

Never have I tried to say that all or even most people who don't want to retire are solely motivated by the joy of the work. I know plenty of wealthy folks who can't put down the cash hose because the thought of a lower standard of living is downright repugnant.

My point is that you really can't assume someone's motivations. It's gross to generalize either way.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: markbike528CBX on August 07, 2020, 07:26:37 PM
gonna  PTF.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: ol1970 on August 11, 2020, 08:54:32 AM
to defend @ol1970 , you guys did want to hear from a genuine rich person.

Only if it justifies their point of view. 

It's a lot like politics...people decide what they believe and never change even when they hear factual information from somebody actually in a position to communicate about it.  Sorry for offending the posters here for having a talent I actually enjoy using that brings me joy after no longer needing the money it earns. 
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on August 11, 2020, 09:19:06 AM
It's a lot like politics...people decide what they believe and never change even when they hear factual information from somebody actually in a position to communicate about it.  Sorry for offending the posters here for having a talent I actually enjoy using that brings me joy after no longer needing the money it earns.

Is the talent trolling?  It's gotta be trolling...
:-P
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: bigblock440 on August 12, 2020, 10:05:58 AM
It's a lot like politics...people decide what they believe and never change even when they hear factual information from somebody actually in a position to communicate about it.  Sorry for offending the posters here for having a talent I actually enjoy using that brings me joy after no longer needing the money it earns.

Is the talent trolling?  It's gotta be trolling...
:-P

I've heard they pay people for that.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: talltexan on August 12, 2020, 02:40:26 PM
There are trolls on this forum (as there are on others).

But--shielded by the anonymity--there's also a chance that actual wealthy people are here, particularly given that the values of Mustachianism can often cause people to become stealth-wealthy.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: RWD on August 12, 2020, 02:43:53 PM
There are trolls on this forum (as there are on others).

But--shielded by the anonymity--there's also a chance that actual wealthy people are here, particularly given that the values of Mustachianism can often cause people to become stealth-wealthy.
And sometimes the actually wealthy forum members are also trolls...
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: LWYRUP on August 12, 2020, 03:02:03 PM
I have to say, I read somewhere here on this forum that the top 1% in wealth started at over $10 million in the USA.  I thought I had a pretty good handle on finances but it floored me that this was so high. 

I live in one of the richer (high cost) parts of the country and so where I live there's probably a greater percentage of people with that amount... maybe 2-5%?

It's crazy to think that any large intersection I pull up at there's probably 1 person there with over $10 million.

Relates to this conversation because it makes me think that plenty of people keep working when they don't need to.  Which means they must like their jobs.  I think because when you get to that level your job is more fun and involves more deciding and ordering people do to things and less doing of boring things.  Shit rolls downhill and all. 

Anyways, maybe that's cynical but it sort of explains why working as a junior attorney was so awful but yet there are so many people with wads of cash still showing up to the office. 

Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Freedomin5 on August 12, 2020, 03:59:05 PM
to defend @ol1970 , you guys did want to hear from a genuine rich person.

Only if it justifies their point of view. 

It's a lot like politics...people decide what they believe and never change even when they hear factual information from somebody actually in a position to communicate about it.  Sorry for offending the posters here for having a talent I actually enjoy using that brings me joy after no longer needing the money it earns.

I donít think anyone has a problem with you having and using a talent that brings you joy.  MMM even has a term for people like you and me ó SWAMI - Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual.

I think people have a problem with you denigrating people who have not made the same choices regarding spending as you, specifically the following statement:

Quote
It cracks me up all of these people living such fulfilling awesome lives because they quit work at 30-35 and are "happy" living on $25-40K a year.   Trust me, watching YouTube videos of people doing cool stuff isn't the same as doing it yourself, don't let somebody convince you its not, and I'm sorry you can't do it on $25k a year.

Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on August 12, 2020, 05:34:43 PM
Or the obnoxious humble-brag about earning $50k in a week working a couple of hours...
Quote
It is actually a ton of fun to work a few hours a week with interesting people and projects at my leisure, and hell it is cool to make $50k one week doing something you'd have done for fun anyway
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 12, 2020, 06:28:04 PM
Or the obnoxious humble-brag about earning $50k in a week working a couple of hours...
Quote
It is actually a ton of fun to work a few hours a week with interesting people and projects at my leisure, and hell it is cool to make $50k one week doing something you'd have done for fun anyway

Personally, that part doesn't bother me at all, but that's because I'm not bothered by bragging in the least. What I can't understand is why come to an FI site if you fundamentally think the FI folks are idiots?

Anyone worth 8 figures has plenty of like minded folk to chat with. Why the hell waste your time on a forum like this?

I don't go to the long hair forum and talk about how much better having a shaved head is compared to the massive hassle of maintaining knee length hair. Likewise I don't go to the purse forum and condescend about how carrying a backpack is so much more practical than carrying a purse that comes with its own rain coat because it shouldn't get wet.

I get sharing a different perspective, but that's a far cry from maligning the fundamental basis of a community and its members.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: ixtap on August 12, 2020, 06:42:57 PM
Or the obnoxious humble-brag about earning $50k in a week working a couple of hours...
Quote
It is actually a ton of fun to work a few hours a week with interesting people and projects at my leisure, and hell it is cool to make $50k one week doing something you'd have done for fun anyway

Personally, that part doesn't bother me at all, but that's because I'm not bothered by bragging in the least. What I can't understand is why come to an FI site if you fundamentally think the FI folks are idiots?

Anyone worth 8 figures has plenty of like minded folk to chat with. Why the hell waste your time on a forum like this?

I don't go to the long hair forum and talk about how much better having a shaved head is compared to the massive hassle of maintaining knee length hair. Likewise I don't go to the purse forum and condescend about how carrying a backpack is so much more practical than carrying a purse that comes with its own rain coat because it shouldn't get wet.

I get sharing a different perspective, but that's a far cry from maligning the fundamental basis of a community and its members.

We aren't at that level of rich, but I started reading and posting here because it was the first time I found like minded people regarding lifestyle choices. I know very few people in real life that choose not to live up to their means. Most of our friends aren't crazy in debt or anything, they just can't conceive of keeping their car a a few more years just because it isn't broken, or choosing to have a roommate just because you don't have a use for the second bedroom.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Fish Sweet on August 12, 2020, 10:56:28 PM
It cracks me up all of these people living such fulfilling awesome lives because they quit work at 30-35 and are "happy" living on $25-40K a year.   Trust me, watching YouTube videos of people doing cool stuff isn't the same as doing it yourself, don't let somebody convince you its not, and I'm sorry you can't do it on $25k a year.  Winning is not just about stopping working, people who are winning are ones that have the three areas covered; finances, health, and relationships.
What's baffling is the idea that people who live on 25-40k a year live SARCASTIC QUOTATION MARKS "happy" lives and aren't able to do cool stuff.   Setting aside that what constitutes a "happy life" differs wildly from person to person, I spent five years spending less than 25k and every single one of those years I still managed to swing stereotypical rich people "cool stuff" like luxurious international travel, cross-country visits to theme parks, high end fancy dining, and brand name purchases without breaking either a sweat or the bank.  Envy-watching youtube videos are unnecessary (except during this pandemic, I suppose.)

Having money is great, but you don't have to spend $$$ to "win" or to do cool things or be happy.  Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 13, 2020, 10:16:20 PM
It occurs to me that we donít ask ďwhy donít you stopĒ to athletes or actors who have clearly made it to the top of their game. Why should the wealthy be any different? If their ďthingĒ is to work and create wealth, then why should they stop? Itís not up to me to determine what makes other people happy.

I think we probably need to differentiate some of these extremely high net worth individuals from the more garden variety of folks who are in the lower 7 digits of NW. It is possible for someone who is of relatively moderate means to save and invest wisely and get into the lower 7 digits of NW.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 14, 2020, 06:57:27 AM
It occurs to me that we donít ask ďwhy donít you stopĒ to athletes or actors who have clearly made it to the top of their game. Why should the wealthy be any different? If their ďthingĒ is to work and create wealth, then why should they stop? Itís not up to me to determine what makes other people happy.

I think we probably need to differentiate some of these extremely high net worth individuals from the more garden variety of folks who are in the lower 7 digits of NW. It is possible for someone who is of relatively moderate means to save and invest wisely and get into the lower 7 digits of NW.

There are certain types of work that people can easily grasp being enjoyable, like sports or acting, which is funny because those are two incredibly brutal industries that I would personally never want to work in.

We also generally give more leeway to anyone who doesn't work a MegaCorp office job. We're pretty tolerant of farmers, chefs, doctors, writers, dog breeders, restaurant or shop owners, tailors, politicians, therapists, librarians, archeologists, religious leaders, woodworkers, wilderness guides, professors, designers, etc, etc, etc, who enjoy their work and continue on into their senior years.

What's particularly funny is that this is on MMM's website, the guy who is the poster child for continuing to do work and make tons of money despite having absolutely no need for it. Except in his case, we call it FIRE because he made a career change at 30.

Meanwhile, someone who just stays within their own industry and continues to make more money than they need, they're somehow by default all about the money?

It's an absolutely arbitrary categorization. You can't know any person's relationship with work and money unless they show you what it is. Someone continuing to work despite having wealth says absolutely nothing other than that they have *some* reason to continue working.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: LWYRUP on August 14, 2020, 07:47:06 AM
We also generally give more leeway to anyone who doesn't work a MegaCorp office job. We're pretty tolerant of farmers, chefs, doctors, writers, dog breeders, restaurant or shop owners, tailors, politicians, therapists, librarians, archeologists, religious leaders, woodworkers, wilderness guides, professors, designers, etc, etc, etc, who enjoy their work and continue on into their senior years.

Ok, while I generally am in agreement with the "let people make their own choices in this matter and don't interject your opinion unless they are asking for it camp" when you are talking about assessing any individual person, from a sociological standpoint I can't help but wonder...

Is it because people on average are able to identify certain things about these jobs you are listing that seem to be inherently enriching, while at the same time identify certain things about mega corp jobs that seem to be inherently soul sucking? 

I understand certain people within a mega corp structure may be fulfilled and love their jobs, but I think we can reasonably classify the structure as a whole as soul-sucking and I know a whole lot of people who dedicated their whole lives to them that would agree with me.  There is a certain feeling in those places, one where you feel like the implicit expectations for 99.99% of the workforce is just to STFU and produce your narrow task and not have any ideas, and that the corporation as a whole only gives a crap about what maybe 0.01% of people think about anything.  Now certain corporations can try to fight against that tendency, but I wonder if it is just inherent in their systems.  And if you are in such a system, most people would not do it except for one single reason -- high ROI on a dollar per hour basis.

There are certain things that people just don't like.  The combination of high stress plus low autonomy seems to be particularly unpleasant.  Add to that job requirements to produce a large volume of tasks that are rote but also involve an incredible amount of attention to detail so that one cannot really coast, and a system in which it is expected that people can sort of monotonously produce with only a 0.5 hour lunch break (while checking e-mail!) for 8-12 hours a day for 40 years?  That is not all mega corp jobs but it is an awful lot of the ones in the middle. 

I would never criticize an individual poster for continuing to work at a mega corp after FI.  But I do think when we are having a general discussion about society we can make these sort of generalizations while understanding that individual circumstances may differ.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on August 14, 2020, 07:55:45 AM
It occurs to me that we donít ask ďwhy donít you stopĒ to athletes or actors who have clearly made it to the top of their game. Why should the wealthy be any different? If their ďthingĒ is to work and create wealth, then why should they stop? Itís not up to me to determine what makes other people happy.


Maybe you don't read and listen to the same things I do.
Athletes are constantly asked about retirement - and it seems the most accute for future Hall-of-Famers.  Tom Brady is the poster-child right now... "why didn't het just retire at/near the top of his game as a NE Patriot?"  Well, while he might not be as sharp as he was 6-8 years ago, he's still a top-30 NFL quarterback, easily.  Brett Favre and Payton Manning endured the "when will you retire" before Brady (note:  Manning won the superbowl his last game... his performance may not have been steller but he still exited with the championship). 
Certainly not just American Football.  Pick a sport and you'll find superstars that people wish would have retired years earlier.  Nolan Ryan. Babe Ruth. Michael Jordan.  Shaq. Pele.  Arnold Palmer.  George Foreman. Gordie Howe.  Every one made boatloads of money doing what they loved but were just average (for their sport) the final couple of years that they played.  And the press and fans were critical that they continued to play, and urged them to hang up their cleats/skates/spikes/gloves.

Actors I'm not as versed in, but I do know that there's rampant sexism with female actors -- many talanted A-listers are snubbed once they can no longer pass for a 20-something bombshell.  Maybe not the same thing, but previous few make the transition from 'sexy female lead' to '40/50/60-something female lead', and its not (always) for a lack of acting chops.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on August 14, 2020, 09:26:27 AM

Ok, while I generally am in agreement with the "let people make their own choices in this matter and don't interject your opinion unless they are asking for it camp" when you are talking about assessing any individual person, from a sociological standpoint I can't help but wonder...

Is it because people on average are able to identify certain things about these jobs you are listing that seem to be inherently enriching, while at the same time identify certain things about mega corp jobs that seem to be inherently soul sucking? 

I understand certain people within a mega corp structure may be fulfilled and love their jobs, but I think we can reasonably classify the structure as a whole as soul-sucking and I know a whole lot of people who dedicated their whole lives to them that would agree with me.  There is a certain feeling in those places, one where you feel like the implicit expectations for 99.99% of the workforce is just to STFU and produce your narrow task and not have any ideas, and that the corporation as a whole only gives a crap about what maybe 0.01% of people think about anything.  Now certain corporations can try to fight against that tendency, but I wonder if it is just inherent in their systems.  And if you are in such a system, most people would not do it except for one single reason -- high ROI on a dollar per hour basis.

There are certain things that people just don't like.  The combination of high stress plus low autonomy seems to be particularly unpleasant.  Add to that job requirements to produce a large volume of tasks that are rote but also involve an incredible amount of attention to detail so that one cannot really coast, and a system in which it is expected that people can sort of monotonously produce with only a 0.5 hour lunch break (while checking e-mail!) for 8-12 hours a day for 40 years?  That is not all mega corp jobs but it is an awful lot of the ones in the middle. 

I would never criticize an individual poster for continuing to work at a mega corp after FI.  But I do think when we are having a general discussion about society we can make these sort of generalizations while understanding that individual circumstances may differ.

I don't think the generalizations much help.  It really isn't my or our place to determine what makes other people happy.  There are some people who are perfectly happy and fulfilled doing jobs that I would consider a sheer living hell.  Where I think we help, and where FI has cultural relevance is by suggesting to those that ARE unhappy is that FI is a "get out of jail" card.  And more broadly it provides a stick to jamoke employers. The ability to give the middle finger, even when used sparingly, is extremely empowering. 

Contrary to what the neo Maoists of late are pushing, the road to freedom is not in revolutionary destruction of the social order but in self-awareness and self-sufficiency.       
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on August 14, 2020, 10:18:54 AM
Neo Maoists?
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 14, 2020, 12:04:40 PM
We also generally give more leeway to anyone who doesn't work a MegaCorp office job. We're pretty tolerant of farmers, chefs, doctors, writers, dog breeders, restaurant or shop owners, tailors, politicians, therapists, librarians, archeologists, religious leaders, woodworkers, wilderness guides, professors, designers, etc, etc, etc, who enjoy their work and continue on into their senior years.

Ok, while I generally am in agreement with the "let people make their own choices in this matter and don't interject your opinion unless they are asking for it camp" when you are talking about assessing any individual person, from a sociological standpoint I can't help but wonder...

Is it because people on average are able to identify certain things about these jobs you are listing that seem to be inherently enriching, while at the same time identify certain things about mega corp jobs that seem to be inherently soul sucking? 

I understand certain people within a mega corp structure may be fulfilled and love their jobs, but I think we can reasonably classify the structure as a whole as soul-sucking and I know a whole lot of people who dedicated their whole lives to them that would agree with me.  There is a certain feeling in those places, one where you feel like the implicit expectations for 99.99% of the workforce is just to STFU and produce your narrow task and not have any ideas, and that the corporation as a whole only gives a crap about what maybe 0.01% of people think about anything.  Now certain corporations can try to fight against that tendency, but I wonder if it is just inherent in their systems.  And if you are in such a system, most people would not do it except for one single reason -- high ROI on a dollar per hour basis.

There are certain things that people just don't like.  The combination of high stress plus low autonomy seems to be particularly unpleasant.  Add to that job requirements to produce a large volume of tasks that are rote but also involve an incredible amount of attention to detail so that one cannot really coast, and a system in which it is expected that people can sort of monotonously produce with only a 0.5 hour lunch break (while checking e-mail!) for 8-12 hours a day for 40 years?  That is not all mega corp jobs but it is an awful lot of the ones in the middle. 

I would never criticize an individual poster for continuing to work at a mega corp after FI.  But I do think when we are having a general discussion about society we can make these sort of generalizations while understanding that individual circumstances may differ.

Yeah, but the question is "why don't the rich stop working?"

The stressed out MegaCorp folks who don't have autonomy will mostly self -select themselves out of the population of rich folks who continue to work. I gave the example of people assuming MegaCorp employees aren't happy by default because, yes, on average, they aren't happy. However, that doesn't mean that you can assume that the minority who have plenty of money and continue working aren't happy, just because of the fact they work for MegaCorp.

See the difference?

The MegaCorp folks who get to the point of being rich AND choose to continue working are probably the rare ones with a lot of autonomy, and might actually enjoy their jobs.

Of the senior corporate types I know who continue to work despite having no need for more money, they're majority low stress, high autonomy, pretty happy with their work life kind of people. Where I see a lot more stressed out work despite being rich is in business owners who failed in succession planning and feel trapped by their sense of responsibility despite being burnt out and bored.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: LWYRUP on August 14, 2020, 12:58:56 PM
@Malcat

I get what you are saying.  Perhaps we are thinking of different levels of rich, where you are looking at people who have totally blown through any societal expectation of needing to accumulate more (the literal 1%, 10 million and up) while others are thinking of middle-management at megacorp with $3 million but who need to keep working to afford the country club dues but hate their job.  Of which there are a number.

It's an issue I think about a lot because I am not FIRE based on current expenses but comfortably FIRE based on a different subset of expenses (mainly, moving to another state and not sending kids to parochial school), and I also fully realize this, and continue to work, so ergo I must consider the total benefits to exceed the total costs.  Which is accurate.  (I don't work at mega corp  though.)

Probably we should say that rich comprises a wide degree of income, wealth and expenses and people along that spectrum continue working or not for a variety of reasons.  But that's too vague.

There are some people who are rich who don't like their job but need it to fund their lifestyle. 
There are others who have engineered situations in which their job is largely enjoyable.
There are some with a compulsion (literally, addition to working even though they seem stressed and unhappy -- it can be quite an adrenaline to be on these deals with lots of zeros and get to boss around people lower than you even if you get dumped on from above).
There are some that simply need or want some sort of formal engagement with the world so they can justify themselves to their social circle (I'm Frank and I'm an endocrinologist). 

Sometimes, it's a combination of all four factors, competing together all at once. 
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 14, 2020, 02:05:29 PM
I'm actually mostly referring to people who have more than they need to support their preferred lifestyle.

If someone has 3M and can't afford their country club membership, then they don't have enough to support their preferred lifestyle.

As to the rest of your post, yes, I agree that there are multiple reasons why people continue working. At no point did I say that the majority of those who continue working despite being rich (whatever definition you use) are doing it because they love their job.

The only thing I'm saying is that you can't assume to know why someone continues to work even when they don't financially have to. I think there are even more factors than your list of four.

Careers are a huge part of people's lives, and there are countless reasons not to be eager to abandon them.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: 2sk22 on August 15, 2020, 04:06:17 AM
The only thing I'm saying is that you can't assume to know why someone continues to work even when they don't financially have to. I think there are even more factors than your list of four.

Careers are a huge part of people's lives, and there are countless reasons not to be eager to abandon them.

As @Malcat says, there are a million individual reasons why people with a high net worth keep working. I think about this a lot - I've posted my net worth in another thread.

So why am I still working (hopefully, not for long though)?

For a while, the venture capital scene looked bleak earlier this year. But money has started to flow again so I think the funding will go through.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: undercover on August 15, 2020, 03:15:32 PM
It cracks me up all of these people living such fulfilling awesome lives because they quit work at 30-35 and are "happy" living on $25-40K a year.   Trust me, watching YouTube videos of people doing cool stuff isn't the same as doing it yourself, don't let somebody convince you its not, and I'm sorry you can't do it on $25k a year.  Winning is not just about stopping working, people who are winning are ones that have the three areas covered; finances, health, and relationships.

Doing cool stuff yourself and watching others doing cool stuff isnít mutually exclusive. Youíre allowed to do both. Also, if living the typical lifestyle of the 1% was necessary for happiness, thereíd be a lot more suicides.

There are so many things one can do that requires little to no money but are very enjoyable ways to spend time. Doing artistic things, reading literature, learning new skills, riding a bike, hanging out and cooking with friends, etc, are just some of them. I mean sure if you have a firehose of cash hitting you in the face constantly and spending it will do you no harm, go right ahead. But international travel and constant luxury dining arenít necessary to be happy and fulfilled so I donít think aiming to be in the 1% is going to make a fundamental difference to most peopleís lives.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: RogerOS on August 16, 2020, 11:56:27 AM
Successful people are often successful because they are good at what they do. They often become good at what they do because they enjoy it, have a need for recognition and are competitive. These needs and characteristics don't change when you become rich.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on August 16, 2020, 01:15:43 PM
Successful people are often successful because they are good at what they do. They often become good at what they do because they enjoy it, have a need for recognition and are competitive. These needs and characteristics don't change when you become rich.

Or they are born affluent and white.  At least in United States,...
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: MDM on August 16, 2020, 01:25:15 PM
Or they are born affluent and white.  At least in United States,...
Fortunately, both of those attributes are neither necessary nor sufficient.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 16, 2020, 02:00:29 PM
Or they are born affluent and white.  At least in United States,...
Fortunately, both of those attributes are neither necessary nor sufficient.

Yeah, I happen to know a lot of white kids from affluent families who are far, far, faaaaar from successful.

It's a HUGE leg up, but it's often woefully inefficient for actual success.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: nereo on August 17, 2020, 07:37:16 AM
Or they are born affluent and white.  At least in United States,...
Fortunately, both of those attributes are neither necessary nor sufficient.

Yeah, I happen to know a lot of white kids from affluent families who are far, far, faaaaar from successful.

It's a HUGE leg up, but it's often woefully inefficient for actual success.

True.  Children of rich white parents can wind up poor while those from hard-working, lower-class minority backgrounds can become wildly successful.  However, I was providing additional context to RogerOSís statement that successful people are often successful because they are good at what they do.
The sad truth is that in the United States your parentís economic status is one of the strongest predictors of your lifetime earning potential.  Race remains another strong predictor.  That runs contrary to this narrative that we are the ĎLand of Economic Mobility and OpportunityĒ.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: Malcat on August 17, 2020, 09:12:21 AM
Or they are born affluent and white.  At least in United States,...
Fortunately, both of those attributes are neither necessary nor sufficient.

Yeah, I happen to know a lot of white kids from affluent families who are far, far, faaaaar from successful.

It's a HUGE leg up, but it's often woefully inefficient for actual success.

True.  Children of rich white parents can wind up poor while those from hard-working, lower-class minority backgrounds can become wildly successful.  However, I was providing additional context to RogerOSís statement that successful people are often successful because they are good at what they do.
The sad truth is that in the United States your parentís economic status is one of the strongest predictors of your lifetime earning potential.  Race remains another strong predictor.  That runs contrary to this narrative that we are the ĎLand of Economic Mobility and OpportunityĒ.

Yeah, that's absolutely true, but I think their original point was that of the population that becomes particularly successful, regardless of what non talent factors contribute to that success, chances are that the person is good at what they do, which often correlates with enjoying it, not always, but often. I think it was more of an observation about why people stay in successfil positions as opposed to why they're successful.
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: albireo13 on August 24, 2020, 03:28:09 PM
There is no winning. 
Either you are happy in life or not. 
You are the prime example of material excess. 
Congratulations that you own more boats than your neighbor. 
LOL
Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: MikePolo4 on December 06, 2020, 08:28:12 AM
These people are addicted to the power more than the money. It's their own mini house of cards inside corporate America. It's really sad really for them (to not be satisfied with all that monetary security) and sad for the rest of us who have to work under their thumbs.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Why donít the rich stop working?
Post by: bmjohnson35 on December 06, 2020, 11:41:43 AM
These people are addicted to the power more than the money. It's their own mini house of cards inside corporate America. It's really sad really for them (to not be satisfied with all that monetary security) and sad for the rest of us who have to work under their thumbs.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

This is another generalization.  I have worked with the type you describe and you are very much spot on for those who fall into this category.  I have worked with 1st level supervisors who let a little power go to their head and I have worked with a corporate president of North America who was easy going and very much down to earth.  I was in middle management for years.  I have no interest managing or being responsible for other people ever again.  I don't look down on the former personality type just because it doesn't align with mine.  There are many reasons why people continue to work, whether they are multi-millionaires or simply have adequate retirement wealth/income.  Just because you can't relate doesn't mean you should judge.