Author Topic: To RE or not: emotional aspects...  (Read 8077 times)

Ursus Major

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To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« on: January 02, 2016, 06:58:33 PM »
Hi there,

I'm new to this forum and came across it, because I'm facing a conundrum: I think I'm financially ready to retire (at age 48), but I don't feel it, yet.

Here's what I have squirreled away:

Retirement Accounts:

401k:        550k
IRA:          10k
Roth IRA:    100k
             ----
             660k



Taxable Accounts:

Brokerage:  1950k
Emergency
     Cash:   100k
           ------
            2050k



Total:  ca. 2.71M

Both my retirement and taxable accounts are almost 100% invested in stocks, in my taxable account the stocks will pay dividends of around 38k in 2016.

My after-tax expenses in 2015 were around 55k (2014: 67k) and they are projected to be well below 50k this year, as I am trimming more costs. I moved in with my girl-friend into her house in April 2015, which on the one hand lowers cost of living, but on the other hand will expose me to various unplanned costs associated with home-ownership, as we share household costs (but have separate financials otherwise). Currently we live in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is unfortunately one of the higher-cost areas, both for cost of living and state-taxes. But moving elsewhere is not an option for her.

I am assuming that -if retired - I'd pay around 4.8K a year for health insurance with a deductible of 4.5k and max. out of pocket costs of 6.5k. I am generally healthy, but usually have some dental issues, so I'd budget around 8k an average year for health care.

So working with starting expenses of 55k after tax would put me at expenses of ca. 60k before tax (2.6k CA state tax + 1.7k federal tax), which would make for an initial withdrawal rate of 2.2% Now I have used various calculators including firecalc.com and cfiresim.com and of course this plan passes with flying colors. And that doesn't even take into consideration that I'll receive U.S. Social Security and some Social Security from my country of origin at some point in time.

Thus the number tell me that I'm FI and should be able to RE. (If not, please do me a great favor and point out the flaws in my calculation). However I just don't feel that I am there. Reading "Dr. Doom's" blog at livingafi.com gave me some appreciation of the emotional challenges that go along with this step. I am a Software Developer and have been with my company for almost 22 years and have in fact never worked for another company in this country. And I feel ill-suited for my current job, with my boss and the rest of my team on another continent, while I am expected to support another local team. I am having a very hard time trying to keep up, and it's being noticed. Unfortunately the local office of our company focuses now almost exclusively on internet-related development, so I haven't been able to find one of the more legacy (non-internet related) development jobs in my local office. So my plan for 2016 was to start looking outside of my company for another job (a difficult step for me), but now I am wondering, if I just simply could retire.

I'm wondering, how other people deal or dealt with the emotional challenges of "When is enough enough?" and would appreciate some thoughts on that.

Thanks for reading,

U.

jim555

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2016, 07:17:20 PM »
Your numbers look good.  You can always adjust spending if needs require it. 

MonkeyJenga

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2016, 07:24:34 PM »
Can you take a sabbatical? It might help with the emotional aspects to have that fallback, even though you absolutely don't need it financially. Then when you realize how great it is not to work (I assume), you can retire for real.

Ursus Major

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2016, 07:32:53 PM »
Can you take a sabbatical? It might help with the emotional aspects to have that fallback, even though you absolutely don't need it financially. Then when you realize how great it is not to work (I assume), you can retire for real.
That is a great suggestion, but I have some doubts that my boss would want to accommodate me on that. Though I need to think about it more.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2016, 07:56:54 PM »
You have 'enough' as long as you are flexible.  Many FIRE in this space are resorting to homesteading, global arbitrage, and minimalism as backstops.  That's cool, but you aren't there.  That is what you have as plan B which I can imagine you might also take on as part of your plan A plus...  It's encouraging, folks that come here and find out that they are 'more than FI'. 

LivingAFI didn't have your FI when he pulled his plug and they are still doing pretty darn good, I have faith you'll be OK.  At this point, your future is very much in your hands.  Uncouple yourself from the mentality of a 20-yr old worker that has to get out of servitude!

Exflyboy

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2016, 09:46:10 PM »
Hahahah... I'm laughing cus I have retired about once per month for the last 2 years. You certainly have enough money.. (I have about 2.3 to 2.4M including the house), but I still end up working.

So for some of what I hope is entertaining reading see my blog below..:)

deborah

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2016, 12:18:27 AM »
I'm not sure. Yes, you have enough financially to retire. Most people who have that much money are looking at both retiring together, and it is enough for both of them.

However, you've recently moved in with your girlfriend, so you've had significant changes this year. This is especially true because you've worked at the same place for so long it might as well be your entire life, and you seem to be looking to retire because you're afraid to find a different job. So you strike me as someone who doesn't like change, so retirement may be more difficult for you than for most.

Have you talked about this with your girlfriend? Retiring at a different time to your girlfriend possibly puts a bit of a strain on the relationship. My SO retired earlier than me, and I remember being surprised at how little he managed to achieve in the day while I was at work. And then I'd think that he had worked longer than me, and he deserved to retire, and it didn't matter what he did, as he was retired, and didn't have to do anything. I have read of other people who have been frustrated that the place isn't clean and spotless, and the dinner ready when they come home. And in a sense that is reasonable - our society thinks that the person at home is the homemaker, and does the cleaning, makes the meals...

And if one person retires a long time before the other, when the second person retires, the house has no space for them, because the first person is used to having the whole house to themselves every day.

arebelspy

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2016, 04:02:09 AM »
Essentially, it seems to me, this is the issue:
I'm wondering, how other people deal or dealt with the emotional challenges of "When is enough enough?"

You haven't yet convinced yourself you have enough.  You're in doubt that your money will last.

Thus the number tell me that I'm FI and should be able to RE. (If not, please do me a great favor and point out the flaws in my calculation). However I just don't feel that I am there.

Okay, so let's see.  You say your WR is 2.2%, and of course that never would have failed historically.

Let's look at it besides a WR %.

You spend 55k.  You have 2.71MM.

If you got a flat 0% real return (so it increased the same as inflation, so your spending also increased with inflation, so we'll just use real dollars), you could live off that 2.71MM for 49 years.  Since you are 48, that would make you 97 years old!

Do you think we'll have 0% real returns for the next 49 years (half a century!)? 

Remember, the stock market's long term average is about 8.5%, adjusting for dividends and inflation--11.6% nominal, without inflation.

But let's say you don't get that 8.5% average.  Let's say you don't even get half that, 4.25%.  Let's say you just get a 1% real return.  A measly 1% return.

Your money would last until you're 116.

Do you have enough?  I think so.  I think we'll see more than a 1% return over the next 68 years.  I think it's more likely we see returns close to the average.  Even if we see below average returns, say, returns that are half the historical average, you could live to be 100 and you'd be left with $13,625,524 in today's (real) dollars!

Sometimes a number like 2.2% WR doesn't encapsulate the safety buffer you've accumulated.  1% returns lasting until you're 116?  Half the historical average leaving you with 8 figures upon a death at age 100?

Yeah, I think you should start looking at moving past the emotions of "do I have enough?"  You do.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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arebelspy

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2016, 04:04:20 AM »
And "retirement" isn't permanent.  Try a sabbatical.  Or just time off, if your company won't grant you one.  Resign, and see how it goes.

The money is good.  You just need to adjust mentally.

You mentioned Dr. Doom's blog--see, specifically, his "trial" FIRE: http://livingafi.com/2014/04/06/three-weeks-off-series-part-0-prelude/

Or his math on a gap year: http://livingafi.com/2015/08/04/taking-a-gap-year/
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

desk_jockey

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2016, 07:48:15 AM »
That is a great suggestion, but I have some doubts that my boss would want to accommodate me on that. Though I need to think about it more.

Your boss doesn't have to get a say in the issue. 

As long as you keep to your current spending, you’re set for life.  You’re FI.  The RE of FIRE isn’t mandatory.  You get to decide what’s next. 

It sounds like your current job is not a good fit for you, and you feel it unlikely that you can change to a better one in the company.  A lot of people can think more clearly when they’ve stepped away for a while.  Consider taking a sabbatical by quitting, when wait a year before you begin to look for work again.  Take the first 3 to 6 months to decompress, and then start thinking about what you want to do next.   

Maybe you never return to work, or change occupations entirely, or rested and refreshed you begin to teach yourself some “internet related” languages.

avrex

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 09:59:25 PM »
....have been with my company for almost 22 years and have in fact never worked for another company in this country. And I feel ill-suited for my current job...

It sounds like you realize that you are finished with this company..... and since this has been the only company that you've ever worked for, maybe you're a little scared.  That's ok.

Some people feel that their personal identify is defined by their title/job?  Some people don't have any real interests outside of work.  If that sounds like you..... you need to discover what else in life brings you happiness.

As described above by others, you have more than enough dollars.

There's a whole new and interesting world waiting for you to discover. 

You can do anything you want

Don't be afraid.  Take the step forward.

dailycycle

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 10:10:35 PM »
Given your work history, I think one thing could really help you feel more solid in your decision.  Get a different job, or at least interview for other positions.  You'll be better able to sort out whether you want to work at all, or just don't want to work at your particular company. 

humblefi

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2016, 11:07:44 PM »
Two things occur to me in your scenario.

+ Spending $55K per year is relatively predictable +/- a few thousand each year. What is not predictable is medical expenses later in life and end of life expenses like nursing home, etc. We can argue that the spend rate of $55K will reduce in later years, but then inflation also kicks in over time. For example, if you can fund a Medical fund of $100K today that you plan to use 25 yrs down the line && you put them in a National MUNI fund, assuming a 3% dividend return and a 10% state tax rate, you will almost double your money to $200K....more if you invest in CA only fund, but that is risky. At $10000 pm nursing cost, you have 2 years worth of total care without dipping into other parts. Or you could think of long term care. What I mean to say is:
    ++ find out all the unpredictable expenses that you can think of and
    ++ Develop a funding plan for each expense
    ++ Once you have the uncertainties broken down into small certain goals on paper, it will give you enormous peace of mind before you pull the plug.

+ After 2008, I have developed a thumb rule stress test for my portfolio. Since you are at 100% stock, question is can you stay retired if your dividend income dropped by 40%? Or 30% or whatever number you are comfortable with. So, $55K expenses should have an income of $77K to compensate for a 40%. Or diversify your risk better.

Hope that helps.

soccerluvof4

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2016, 07:24:27 AM »
If the doubts your having are because of the money you have you are fine. It seems your vision is being clouded by judgement/feelings on your job. Even if for sanity reasons you wanted to work you could find I am sure a lesser paying job your happy at. After all that is what it should be about. Dont worry , be happy!! you are in a great place financially.

happy

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2016, 02:45:08 PM »
Dont worry , be happy!! you are in a great place financially.

Couldn't have said it better myself! ;)

Cassie

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2016, 05:29:35 PM »
Why not quit and see how it goes. If you don't like it you could do p.t. consulting in your field, try something new or go back to work f.t. in your field.  It does not have to be all or nothing.

Gronnie

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2016, 08:37:30 PM »
I think you should look into trying to get let go and getting a nice severance package. You put in 22 years and are no longer a good fit with the company (your words). You shouldn't have to quit, you should get some sort of severance.

smiller257

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2016, 03:39:31 PM »
I agree with everyone else: you have enough to retire. I've been retired for 3 years but recently have been working on pet projects that just happen to be paid. The money is obviously a side benefit but it's because I enjoy the work. It's intellectually stimulating and fun.

With that said, I really enjoyed the first couple years of traveling and just enjoying life, I highly recommend it. Whether you later pick up pet projects all depends on how you feel once you've had a taste of retirement.

All the best!

Cassie

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 05:05:32 PM »
Our first year we were fully retired and then both decided we wanted to do some consulting p.t. on our own terms which has been great.  That may work for you. The point is to try different things and see what works.

Ursus Major

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2016, 02:45:07 PM »
Thank you so much everyone for all the supportive and insightful responses. I'm going to respond to several of them in a single post.

Have you talked about this with your girlfriend? Retiring at a different time to your girlfriend possibly puts a bit of a strain on the relationship. My SO retired earlier than me, and I remember being surprised at how little he managed to achieve in the day while I was at work. And then I'd think that he had worked longer than me, and he deserved to retire, and it didn't matter what he did, as he was retired, and didn't have to do anything. I have read of other people who have been frustrated that the place isn't clean and spotless, and the dinner ready when they come home. And in a sense that is reasonable - our society thinks that the person at home is the homemaker, and does the cleaning, makes the meals...

And if one person retires a long time before the other, when the second person retires, the house has no space for them, because the first person is used to having the whole house to themselves every day.

My girlfriend would like to retire as well, but she thinks that she needs to work for another two or three years. Unfortunately, she isn't very much interested in the details of financial and investing matters and she doesn't have a detailed plan. She has saved quite a bit and has some investments in real-estate (one or two condos), but it isn't clear to me, if that is sufficient. She also doesn't track her expenses, so that makes it hard to know, when and if she's financially ready. I've offered to her on occasion to run the numbers, but she doesn't want the deal with it (just trying to locate the various account statements or login credentials takes some serious effort for her) and I don't want to push her too much on that.

And "retirement" isn't permanent.  Try a sabbatical.  Or just time off, if your company won't grant you one.  Resign, and see how it goes.

The money is good.  You just need to adjust mentally.

You mentioned Dr. Doom's blog--see, specifically, his "trial" FIRE: http://livingafi.com/2014/04/06/three-weeks-off-series-part-0-prelude/

Or his math on a gap year: http://livingafi.com/2015/08/04/taking-a-gap-year/

It sounds like your current job is not a good fit for you, and you feel it unlikely that you can change to a better one in the company.  A lot of people can think more clearly when they’ve stepped away for a while.  Consider taking a sabbatical by quitting, when wait a year before you begin to look for work again.  Take the first 3 to 6 months to decompress, and then start thinking about what you want to do next.   

Maybe you never return to work, or change occupations entirely, or rested and refreshed you begin to teach yourself some “internet related” languages.

Finding a new job easily after some months or years of being out of work/retired, is something that I'm not so sure about. It seems to me (at least in my line of software development, which is enterprise business software) that the longer you are retired/out-of-work (or whatever a future employer likes to view your status as), the harder it is to find a new job, particularly if you are not in your 20s, but in your late 40s. FWIW my girlfriend believes that once you're out and retired you won't be able to go back to work, unless you are some superstar in the industry. I'm not convinced that it is that harsh, but I imagine that it would be difficult.

Ursus Major

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2016, 02:47:09 PM »
I think you should look into trying to get let go and getting a nice severance package. You put in 22 years and are no longer a good fit with the company (your words). You shouldn't have to quit, you should get some sort of severance.

How would you get your company to give you a severance package? They really have no incentive to do so, if you want to quite anyway.

arebelspy

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2016, 11:27:10 PM »
I think you should look into trying to get let go and getting a nice severance package. You put in 22 years and are no longer a good fit with the company (your words). You shouldn't have to quit, you should get some sort of severance.

How would you get your company to give you a severance package? They really have no incentive to do so, if you want to quite anyway.

Google has any number of ideas on this.  :)

Here's one: http://www.financialsamurai.com/dont-get-fired-or-quit-get-laid-off-instead/
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Daisy

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Re: To RE or not: emotional aspects...
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2016, 11:35:28 AM »
I think you should look into trying to get let go and getting a nice severance package. You put in 22 years and are no longer a good fit with the company (your words). You shouldn't have to quit, you should get some sort of severance.

How would you get your company to give you a severance package? They really have no incentive to do so, if you want to quite anyway.

I'm thinking of this too. My current project is ending and my manager wants me to go back to coding, which I definitely don't want to do. I want to continue to be a technical lead but he has other people on the team that want to do this too and would need that to get promoted. He did admit that I did a good job in that role, so it is confusing to me. Maybe they think I won't leave. If he doesn't satisfy the others in the group who may be younger in their career, they may leave - which has been happening quite a bit.

I applied for another internal job and am waiting for the outcome of the interview. It would be a nice change of pace from what I've been working on - more people rather than tech oriented. But I am sure I'll get tired of that after a couple of years too.

I figure if the other opening doesn't pan out, then I can decide whether or not I should pursue getting laid off. If my "number" was a little better I would hesitate less.

I was thinking of telling the manager "this is not where I want my career to go, so maybe it's best if you put me on the next layoff list". Maybe I mention I am looking for other work. The thing is, he is a little frustrated with me not getting all excited over the new position. By me offering to be laid off, he gets a headache (me!) off his back.

But he did admit that no one wants to work for our department, so maybe they won't be up for this plan. We work on technology that is obsoleting so newly minted fresh hires are not accepting job offers that my department is offering. So most of the "new hires" have been people previously laid off from our department wanting to come back.

I could also concoct a story of wanting to take time off to help my elderly parents, which actually isn't that far off from the truth. I'd really like to help more. So maybe my layoff pitch would be along the lines of wanting to help them out. Then I'd offer the possibility of working on a project basis as a contractor when they needed me. This way I have potential part-time work in my FIRE plan.

BTW, my company has been in constant layoff mode for a few years, so I'm sure there's one planned this year - so not like this would be a totally baseless plan.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 11:37:28 AM by Daisy »