Author Topic: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE  (Read 3394 times)

moustachebar

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Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« on: February 08, 2022, 06:01:36 AM »
I've really been enjoying the homebuilt teardrop campers I see online. Chesapeake Light Craft has a beautiful camper kit and it is light, so doesn't need a giant truck to pull.

But it is hard to find a spot of land in the NE for camping without high fees or in some cases having to move every couple weeks. Compared to the West there just aren't that many places to be left alone.

For that region, maybe it would be just as nice to stay in one place if it were well chosen. A vacation house seems fairly anti mustachian tho.

Are there towns in southern VT, NH, ME or MA where one could build a tiny house (on wheels or not) to serve as a seasonal basecamp? I know these states have HCOL in general, though taking heating out of the equation can help. I also know local zoning can require large minimum lot and even house sizes.

Zoning: A place close to a town that had pretty hands off zoning would be good. Doing it as an accessory dwelling unit is another option but you'd have to lease the land I think, or buy it and landlord the primary dwelling.

Building code: There are decent shed kits out there for cheap that can be a good start.

Insulation etc might not be required if unheated.

I also wonder how they enforce the SF/ person requirement... I get that the occupant limit might be one person. How do they prohibit you from having people over? Or is it more that when you sell the occupant limit goes with it?

Utilities: Some jurisdictions require electric service, or septic, or water. It would be ideal to build without, and import drinking water and stove fuel and use a composting toilet. Essentially camping.

Not really interested in a 'park'.

Anyone doing this or have any insight as to where or how one could?

Askel

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2022, 06:19:00 AM »
Can't speak for VT, NH, ME or MA , but in MI what it seems you want is not a "tiny house" but a "deer camp".   

A not very fancy example:  https://www.joshsteinland.com/listing.php?target_mls=1130971

Typically these areas are zoned rural and these structures are not subject to building codes and inspections.  As such, you see some "interesting" construction methods in some of them. But sometimes you come across a really nice one.     

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2022, 07:03:49 AM »
Yes... This is about right in terms of services and legality.

Is this allowed by township or state in MI?

It does also bring up the idea of finding something that exists already and adding and subtracting to hack regulations.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2022, 07:15:37 AM »
In the NE, this is often called a "seasonal camp" and can usually be had with some acreage for under $100k, e.g.

https://www.landsofamerica.com/property/81-Chaney-Drive-Eden-Vermont-05653/12483654/
https://www.landwatch.com/caledonia-county-vermont-homes-for-sale/pid/410750711

Location and services, including internet, are always worth investigating further. 

Askel

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2022, 07:24:37 AM »
Hmmm... a cursory review of the local county building inspector's web site does not reveal where this is specifically allowed. 

However, it's so common that I don't think there's any enforcement. I think it slides by because most of these structures fall under the 250 square foot requirement for a county building permit and are clearly not year round residences. Although, I know a few folks perpetually in hot water with their spouses that make enough use of their camp to make it seem like one.

And you will definitely have inspectors out there if you try running in electricity, drilling a well, or putting in a septic system.   

If the county inspector stops by and wants to get uppity about things, I guess you just tell him you're storing that mattress and table in your storage shed.     

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2022, 07:32:45 AM »
In the NE, this is often called a "seasonal camp" and can usually be had with some acreage for under $100k, e.g.

https://www.landsofamerica.com/property/81-Chaney-Drive-Eden-Vermont-05653/12483654/
https://www.landwatch.com/caledonia-county-vermont-homes-for-sale/pid/410750711

Location and services, including internet, are always worth investigating further.

Thank you. Ideal, though very far north!

Do you think there's a route to doing this from scratch? Is occupancy of these places in the future viable or could a township require utility or septic at some point? I'm not interested in fouling the land, rather low impact. But I'm aware jurisdictions want to guard against bad practices.
Hmmm... a cursory review of the local county building inspector's web site does not reveal where this is specifically allowed. 

However, it's so common that I don't think there's any enforcement. I think it slides by because most of these structures fall under the 250 square foot requirement for a county building permit and are clearly not year round residences. Although, I know a few folks perpetually in hot water with their spouses that make enough use of their camp to make it seem like one.

And you will definitely have inspectors out there if you try running in electricity, drilling a well, or putting in a septic system.   

If the county inspector stops by and wants to get uppity about things, I guess you just tell him you're storing that mattress and table in your storage shed.     

Thanks for looking. Ok, so this is a place to start: staying under the sf required for a permit. Or, in the case of one on wheels, finding a place that allows RVs not in a campground. Wonder if composting toilets count as self contained sanitation.

SailingOnASmallSailboat

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2022, 07:37:40 AM »
Vermont does building codes/permits by individual town, meaning it's fairly labor-intensive to investigate as a blanket "gee where is this possible". I'd imagine New Hampshire and Maine are similar, with a very strong sense of independent spirit and much more leeway towards off-grid living than many other places.

Meaning it's not a matter of "is this allowed" but more making sure you're not buying land in a place where it's specifically NOT allowed.

ETA: obviously anything is possible in the future (your question about requiring utilities and septic) but I'd be hard pressed to believe Vermont will ever pass that kind of regulation. For starters, huge swaths of the state are massively rural, and that kind of investment into infrastructure isn't practical.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 07:40:52 AM by SailingOnASmallSailboat »

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2022, 07:43:27 AM »
Got it, thanks. So maybe looking at towns first, and filtering by looking at towns that sort of intend to stay rural.

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2022, 07:49:39 AM »
...it's fairly labor-intensive to investigate as a blanket "gee where is this possible"....

Maybe I can start by finding a place that is similar and then checking ordinances in that town.

Or find a buyer agent who works with rural land?

sonofsven

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2022, 07:49:58 AM »
The problem is always the land, or rather the expense of the land, and by land I mean open to parking a tiny house or building a simple house on. If it's where you want to be, it's too expensive, and if it's "affordable", it's not where you want to be.
I wouldn't plan on ever bringing in "infrastructure" to an off grid hunting camp style of place, instead go with a composting toilet, oil lamps, generator, wood stove, etc.
They become a money sink for the folks I know who have them, usually trips there are mostly maintenance.


Roots&Wings

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2022, 07:54:34 AM »
In the NE, this is often called a "seasonal camp" and can usually be had with some acreage for under $100k, e.g.

https://www.landsofamerica.com/property/81-Chaney-Drive-Eden-Vermont-05653/12483654/
https://www.landwatch.com/caledonia-county-vermont-homes-for-sale/pid/410750711

Location and services, including internet, are always worth investigating further.

Thank you. Ideal, though very far north!

Do you think there's a route to doing this from scratch? Is occupancy of these places in the future viable or could a township require utility or septic at some point? I'm not interested in fouling the land, rather low impact. But I'm aware jurisdictions want to guard against bad practices.

Yeah, I researched this last year for VT. These folks had a good overview of the research process, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYep3C78qPE Like sonofsven says, it's by town

sonofsven

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2022, 08:11:01 AM »
Of course you can do a zillow search for land using their map function to search specific areas, but if it's on Zillow then it won't be a secret. Or cheap.
It's hard to find these gems without local knowledge. Most rural type places have a strong locals only vibe.
There's a thing called Hipcamp a friend showed me, basically places to camp for a fee on private land. Maybe try something like that to get the lay of the land in an area you're interested in? I assume anyone using their land in this way will probably have some insight into other local  possibilities?
I also know groups of friends who split costs and share places; ymmv.

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2022, 09:44:35 AM »
The problem is always the land, or rather the expense of the land, and by land I mean open to parking a tiny house or building a simple house on. If it's where you want to be, it's too expensive, and if it's "affordable", it's not where you want to be.

Very true. Vacation houses make so little sense to me financially, but the kinds of places I like to visit are not the kinds of places I want to live year around. I am trying to make something impossible work in finding something low-cost that can stand in for a vacation house.

I wouldn't plan on ever bringing in "infrastructure" to an off grid hunting camp style of place, instead go with a composting toilet, oil lamps, generator, wood stove, etc.
They become a money sink for the folks I know who have them, usually trips there are mostly maintenance.

Yeah, that's the other thing. Not looking for the trouble of utilities nor maintenance. I know some folks do a tent platform and a wall tent, which might work. Take it down at season's end.

Or actually get a rental property that makes it all pay, and park the basecamp in the driveway.

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2022, 09:45:36 AM »
Yeah, I researched this last year for VT. These folks had a good overview of the research process, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYep3C78qPE Like sonofsven says, it's by town

Great. Thank you!

Mr. Green

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2022, 02:31:28 PM »
In general, building codes typically require a couple things for a structure to be considered a residence. There has to be a permanent source of heat, plumbing (running water & waste disposal), electricity, and a defined sleeping area. Beyond that you get into the nuances of what is to code. In some places, they will not allow an accessory structure on a piece of land without a primary structure, which is almost always a residence. This depends on zoning. The more rural the zoning the more flexibility you will find.

If you are willing to throw up a building with no insulation since you only use it in summer, and no plumbing because you use a composting toilet and the well doesn't have plumbing into the building, you could pretty well use it seasonally without an issue. However, it just can't look like you're living there because you can't reside in a structure that doesn't meet the code for being a residence. Kinda stupid, but it is what it is.

People end up living in places that would violate code for not being a residence all the time. It's called being poor. Again, the more rural an area is the more likely you are to no have any issue with this. Short of being in town, where there are lots of eyeballs, it is easy to work around building codes to create a space that's seasonably usable. Just make sure you're still being safe. The whole reason codes are there is to make sure you can buy/sell a house that does not meet a standard set of health and safety requirements. There are plenty of edge cases though, like this type of seasonal camp, that those codes and zoning don't work the best for

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2022, 05:59:06 AM »
Yeah, camping, or even frugality, is fun if it's your choice to do, right? Otherwise, these too are called being poor.

I am hoping to avoid deception. But this is a niche for certain. Thanks all for helping to define some options!

Scio5

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2022, 11:47:49 AM »
I'm a town planner in CT (so a little south of where you're looking), so I'm just going to reiterate what others said - zoning will vary by town. We just had a gentleman that intended to build a house on his property eventually, but was camping out in a fancy RV on his property for a week or two at a stretch in the meantime. The enforcement officer had to give him a cease and desist because that wasn't allowed in the residential zone. I think it's silly (and steeped in classism - "we don't want the poors just living in trailers!!!") but unfortunately we have to enforce the zoning regulations as written.

If you REALLY find a property that you like that doesn't allow this kind of use, what you do is hire a lawyer to help you draft a zoning text amendment to add it as a permitted use. Your chances of getting it adopted will vary wildly depending on the makeup of the planning and zoning commission you have, but if you have a few hundred bucks to try it could be worth it.

Dicey

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2022, 05:19:08 AM »
I was thinking of this blog as I was reading through your thread. I hopped over to dig for the posts about the shed he built on his Sonoma property. Lo and behold, his most recent post is right on topic. Johnny is my favorite creative curmudgeon. There is plenty of relevant material on his blog, so please enjoy this lovely rabbit hole.

https://www.granolashotgun.com/granolashotguncom/the-lickety-split

nereo

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2022, 06:28:39 AM »
Here in Maine/NH it’s so common to have what you describe that there’s even a phrase for it - “going up to camp”. Many, many people who have very little money (compared to this forum) have a three season cabin in the woods somewhere. As has been said, all codes are local so start narrowing down where you might want to look and go from there.

Also, my impression is most don’t own the land they are on, but just get permission from the owner. This of course helps when you know people or are related to them, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to buy a few acres of undeveloped forestland in the middle of the woods (which often requires at a minimum cutting and maintaining a dirt road) if someone is willing to give you access for a few grand.

While we are on the subject, it’s very rarely worth it at all to go this route financially unless you are going to be there a ton. Paid lodging also tends to be cheap in these areas, and what you are describing already is going to run into the tens-of-thousands. You can rent a few hundred nights in a hotel for that kind of money and spend more time relaxing, less time building, repairing and winterizing. About half the people I know who have camps have mixed feelings that they have them. Many conversations start with “if I didn’t have the camp I’d go/be doing…”.
YMMV

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2022, 09:06:58 AM »
Here in Maine/NH it’s so common to have what you describe that there’s even a phrase for it - “going up to camp”. Many, many people who have very little money (compared to this forum) have a three season cabin in the woods somewhere.

Also, my impression is most don’t own the land they are on, but just get permission from the owner.

While we are on the subject, it’s very rarely worth it at all to go this route financially unless you are going to be there a ton. Paid lodging also tends to be cheap in these areas...

So I'm hearing that people have these in MI, NH, ME... sounds like many regions have them. The maintenance aspect is common too and I'm glad you pointed it out. Near me people have them and have to maintain them as well and it doesn't sound like fun. Even worse, they don't get there often since they have to work all the time. Actually, my neighbors just had to sell theirs to raise some cash. I think due to the pandemic demand they did OK, but imagine having to sell low. You aren't guaranteed to get back out of it what you put in precisely because it's a luxury item, and one geared to people who can't afford luxuries!

Related... I am aware of wealthy spendy people with second houses in spendy locations. They are beautiful places but make even less financial sense than what we're talking about here. And since they are working to make the money, they are spending inordinate amounts of time traveling back and forth (unless fully remote).

The exception is a place that can pull in rental income year round and pay for itself, with a parking spot or ADU or second house on the lot to serve as basecamp. It's not passive though, but if you can find a good tenant you also have built-in security.

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2022, 09:37:33 AM »
There's a thing called Hipcamp a friend showed me, basically places to camp for a fee on private land. Maybe try something like that to get the lay of the land in an area you're interested in? I assume anyone using their land in this way will probably have some insight into other local  possibilities?
I also know groups of friends who split costs and share places; ymmv.

Both really interesting ideas.

We ran across a hipcamp near a state park recently. It was in an area that has lots of outdoors stuff to do. Prices at these places seems to vary a bunch. But a good way to get a handle on an area I think.

Sharing land for such a use seems ideal except for the potential for disagreement. It could work just fine though.

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2022, 09:45:42 AM »
I was thinking of this blog as I was reading through your thread. I hopped over to dig for the posts about the shed he built on his Sonoma property. Lo and behold, his most recent post is right on topic. Johnny is my favorite creative curmudgeon. There is plenty of relevant material on his blog, so please enjoy this lovely rabbit hole.

https://www.granolashotgun.com/granolashotguncom/the-lickety-split

So I have spent a lot of time on his blog since your post. Thank you! Kind of right up my alley. Your description as a creative curmudgeon is dead on. What's cool is that in addition to his critiques he seems to be trying to find ways to move forward and be constructive/ creative/ adaptive. I loved this lickety splits post. And this Sonoma post you might be referring to? PERFECT!

https://www.granolashotgun.com/granolashotguncom/jumping-through-hoops


moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2022, 09:57:06 AM »
I'm a town planner in CT (so a little south of where you're looking), so I'm just going to reiterate what others said - zoning will vary by town. We just had a gentleman that intended to build a house on his property eventually, but was camping out in a fancy RV on his property for a week or two at a stretch in the meantime. The enforcement officer had to give him a cease and desist because that wasn't allowed in the residential zone. I think it's silly (and steeped in classism - "we don't want the poors just living in trailers!!!") but unfortunately we have to enforce the zoning regulations as written.

If you REALLY find a property that you like that doesn't allow this kind of use, what you do is hire a lawyer to help you draft a zoning text amendment to add it as a permitted use. Your chances of getting it adopted will vary wildly depending on the makeup of the planning and zoning commission you have, but if you have a few hundred bucks to try it could be worth it.

Very smart and I appreciate it. It's what developers do after all!

CT would be great too. My sense was that I couldn't afford it. Perhaps I am wrong. Certainly there are enough semi-intact towns in western NE in general to make a decent setup.

Our fear of poor people (and density) - I guess intended to preserve housing values because that's where people's wealth tends to be stored - leading to such waste. It is too bad that fellow couldn't use his own property in that low-impact, and temporary way, but some developer might do something permanent with far more impact on town services and quality of life.

It is so much work to get through all these zoning codes. And there are some codes that are mostly just fine, but then you get these ridiculous frontage requirements. Or ADU's are allowed but must be occupied by a relative.

moustachebar

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2022, 10:02:38 AM »
In general, building codes typically require a couple things for a structure to be considered a residence. There has to be a permanent source of heat, plumbing (running water & waste disposal), electricity, and a defined sleeping area. Beyond that you get into the nuances of what is to code. In some places, they will not allow an accessory structure on a piece of land without a primary structure, which is almost always a residence. This depends on zoning. The more rural the zoning the more flexibility you will find.

If you are willing to throw up a building with no insulation since you only use it in summer, and no plumbing because you use a composting toilet and the well doesn't have plumbing into the building, you could pretty well use it seasonally without an issue. However, it just can't look like you're living there because you can't reside in a structure that doesn't meet the code for being a residence. Kinda stupid, but it is what it is.

That blog post I pasted above with the fellow in Sonoma is kind of what you're suggesting I think. His furnishing seems to me to be pushing it - it really looks like a vacation cottage. It makes me somewhat nervous to think that a new town manager or inspector could singlehandedly decide you're over the line.

Anyone seen the allotment gardens in northern Europe? Another cost-effective way to have a place away. Unlike real second houses they don't take away affordable year round housing from anyone. Some even allow limited overnight use. Go away for a weekend on the edge of town to garden and relax. Sometimes walking distance.

Dicey

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Re: Tiny House as seasonal basecamp / foothold in HCOL NE
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2022, 10:45:08 AM »
I was thinking of this blog as I was reading through your thread. I hopped over to dig for the posts about the shed he built on his Sonoma property. Lo and behold, his most recent post is right on topic. Johnny is my favorite creative curmudgeon. There is plenty of relevant material on his blog, so please enjoy this lovely rabbit hole.

https://www.granolashotgun.com/granolashotguncom/the-lickety-split

So I have spent a lot of time on his blog since your post. Thank you! Kind of right up my alley. Your description as a creative curmudgeon is dead on. What's cool is that in addition to his critiques he seems to be trying to find ways to move forward and be constructive/ creative/ adaptive. I loved this lickety splits post. And this Sonoma post you might be referring to? PERFECT!

https://www.granolashotgun.com/granolashotguncom/jumping-through-hoops
Glad you're enjoying it! The back story on the Hawaii getaway is worth digging for. The specific cottage I was thinking of is pictured in the post you linked, but without much detail. Here are a couple more posts to enjoy:

https://granolashotgun.wordpress.com/2016/06/14/affordable-housing-that-might-have-been/

https://faircompanies.com/videos/bottom-up-urbanism-solves-urgent-housing-needs-in-ca-vicinity/

 

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