Author Topic: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home  (Read 10537 times)

rob in cal

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   I know there are some FIRE people out there who travel full time and thus don't have a permanent home that they own.  That seems to be a no-brainer.  What I'm wondering about is a more moderate version.  Say somebody wants to travel a lot, maybe most of the summer, and a good deal of time at other parts of the year, maybe 4 or 5 months a year, but would like to be back in their home region for the rest of the time.  In such a scenario it seems to be on the edge of whether to keep a home or not.  Renting it out for a few months, or maybe a month at a time would be a challenge, but still having it would make life so less complicated when one is back in the home base area.  Any FIRE people grappling with this issue?
   

Gin1984

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2016, 10:23:23 AM »
Budgets are sexy had an interesting solution, I'm on my phone so I can link right now, but you might want to check it out.

Stachey

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2016, 11:30:31 AM »
Retire Early Lifestyle have a home base that they only spend 2-3 months at per year. 
When in the US they just get travel insurance. 
The rest of the year they travel.
Their website is quite informative.

shadowmoss

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2016, 12:14:21 PM »
I'm moving this direction.  Currently I live in a 23' Class B motorhome.  I've found a park where rent is $2,200.00/year and that includes water (important distinction when comparing parks).  I am planning on using that as a home base, perhaps getting something like a larger travel trailer or 5th wheel to put there.  Then I'll travel during the summer, as summer in Phoenix is not something I want to live through again.  Once piece at a time.  First I got a home with wheels, now I have someplace cheap to put it.

Metric Mouse

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2016, 03:45:58 PM »
Will they be doing this for years on end? It could change the math drastically if one slows their international travel a bit after a few years of FIRE. I found after a few years of 'homelessness' I was ready to spend more time at a home base, and do shorter week-long domestic trips more than jetting around the globe. 

ShortInSeattle

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2016, 12:01:36 PM »
We also plan to travel for part of the year. Like the Kaderli's (Retire Early Lifestyle) our idea is to keep our housing costs at in our home city as low as possible, so we have a home base. The "carrying costs" for our condo are about $600/mo, which isn't peanuts, but it's not bad for an expensive city. (property tax, HOA, Insurance)

Starting in 2017 we plan to travel about 6 months out of the year. Our building is secure, and we want to be able to come home whenever we want. I may have a friend house-sit.

I'd consider renting it out if we ever reach a point we know we'll be gone a full year. (The extra income would be nice - but I'm not keen on having strangers in my home.) And I'd consider selling if we wanted our home base to be somewhere else entirely. But that feels unlikely.

And yeah, I don't know if the travel bug is permanent or if I'll weary of it after a few years. I guess we'll see!

FIKris

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2016, 09:26:02 PM »
Go Curry Cracker has one of the best essays on home ownership on the internet: http://www.gocurrycracker.com/renters-for-life/

He makes a strong case for renting instead of homeownership, and the logic is compelling. 

Northwestie

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 12:32:29 PM »
Interesting article.  But - if you own you house outright the formula changes quite a bit.  We are planning to travel quiet a bit in our early FIRE years and may spend a year or two overseas - thus renting out our home. 

Here in Seattle rent (and real estate in general) just keeps going up and up.  So renting in our case is money lost.  And with our house headed upwards of $850k (purchased for $210k) buying back into the town if we sold is an unlikely option. 

We have some friends who decided to downsize and own a condo and travel at least 6 months of each year - though they expect to ratchet back in a few years.  That seems to work for them.

ahoy

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 10:19:13 PM »
My family and I have done this a couple of times now.  I will say that we do not have a mortgage so this works really well for us.

Several years ago we went for a 2 month overseas trip.  We rented our main residence (above) as a short term rental (anything from 3 nights to a couple of weeks).  It paid for our entire 2 months of hotels.  We paid a friend to clean for us every time someone left.

In 2013 we were slow traveling for nearly two years. This time we didn't spend as much on accommodation, as we had mostly monthly rentals.  We also lived on other investments.

Expenses on the house ran at about 38% of total rents. This is before tax. Bills were higher as we expected eg: heating.   This wouldn't work as well for us if we had a mortgage. 

I can understand if some people just don't won't the hassle of all of this or would want longer term tenants.  My husband handled all the email inquiries and had to then coordinate with our cleaning person.  And this person made a couple of mistakes, eg: not clean in time and a new person(renter) shows up and the house is a mess.  So, we had to refund this person,  I believe this might have happened twice.  We had a few other issues over the entire time, but generally it worked really well.


ahoy

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2016, 10:22:28 PM »
I should also say, for us we would not sell our house.  And once our kids are out on their own, we still wouldn't sell if we went off for two years or more.  You just never know what could happen.

Northwestie

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2016, 10:46:36 AM »
My family and I have done this a couple of times now.  I will say that we do not have a mortgage so this works really well for us.

Several years ago we went for a 2 month overseas trip.  We rented our main residence (above) as a short term rental (anything from 3 nights to a couple of weeks).  It paid for our entire 2 months of hotels.  We paid a friend to clean for us every time someone left.

In 2013 we were slow traveling for nearly two years. This time we didn't spend as much on accommodation, as we had mostly monthly rentals.  We also lived on other investments.

Expenses on the house ran at about 38% of total rents. This is before tax. Bills were higher as we expected eg: heating.   This wouldn't work as well for us if we had a mortgage. 

I can understand if some people just don't won't the hassle of all of this or would want longer term tenants.  My husband handled all the email inquiries and had to then coordinate with our cleaning person.  And this person made a couple of mistakes, eg: not clean in time and a new person(renter) shows up and the house is a mess.  So, we had to refund this person,  I believe this might have happened twice.  We had a few other issues over the entire time, but generally it worked really well.

Interesting.  Just curious - where do you live and how hard was the house to rent for 1-2 months at a time?  Business folks coming and going?

ahoy

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2016, 01:58:18 AM »
My family and I have done this a couple of times now.  I will say that we do not have a mortgage so this works really well for us.

Several years ago we went for a 2 month overseas trip.  We rented our main residence (above) as a short term rental (anything from 3 nights to a couple of weeks).  It paid for our entire 2 months of hotels.  We paid a friend to clean for us every time someone left.

In 2013 we were slow traveling for nearly two years. This time we didn't spend as much on accommodation, as we had mostly monthly rentals.  We also lived on other investments.

Expenses on the house ran at about 38% of total rents. This is before tax. Bills were higher as we expected eg: heating.   This wouldn't work as well for us if we had a mortgage. 

I can understand if some people just don't won't the hassle of all of this or would want longer term tenants.  My husband handled all the email inquiries and had to then coordinate with our cleaning person.  And this person made a couple of mistakes, eg: not clean in time and a new person(renter) shows up and the house is a mess.  So, we had to refund this person,  I believe this might have happened twice.  We had a few other issues over the entire time, but generally it worked really well.

Interesting.  Just curious - where do you live and how hard was the house to rent for 1-2 months at a time?  Business folks coming and going?

I live in a smallish university town.  Not exactly a tourist place.  So, most of our renters were people involved with the University or visiting friends and relatives.   The longest tenant was 3 months. We do very well out of it because there is very little supply of houses here for short term rent.  Where as, my Mother has a vacation place in  a sort after vacation place and has very few renters due to too many houses for rents.  A case of supply and demand.

arebelspy

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2016, 12:03:51 AM »
Following.

We're currently in the "not owning a home, total nomad" scenario, but we may switch to something like this, with a home base.  We'd definitely look at renting it when not in use, if we do.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2016, 12:24:18 AM »
My family and I have done this a couple of times now.  I will say that we do not have a mortgage so this works really well for us.

Several years ago we went for a 2 month overseas trip.  We rented our main residence (above) as a short term rental (anything from 3 nights to a couple of weeks).  It paid for our entire 2 months of hotels.  We paid a friend to clean for us every time someone left.

In 2013 we were slow traveling for nearly two years. This time we didn't spend as much on accommodation, as we had mostly monthly rentals.  We also lived on other investments.

Expenses on the house ran at about 38% of total rents. This is before tax. Bills were higher as we expected eg: heating.   This wouldn't work as well for us if we had a mortgage. 

I can understand if some people just don't won't the hassle of all of this or would want longer term tenants.  My husband handled all the email inquiries and had to then coordinate with our cleaning person.  And this person made a couple of mistakes, eg: not clean in time and a new person(renter) shows up and the house is a mess.  So, we had to refund this person,  I believe this might have happened twice.  We had a few other issues over the entire time, but generally it worked really well.

Interesting.  Just curious - where do you live and how hard was the house to rent for 1-2 months at a time?  Business folks coming and going?

I live in a smallish university town.  Not exactly a tourist place.  So, most of our renters were people involved with the University or visiting friends and relatives.   The longest tenant was 3 months. We do very well out of it because there is very little supply of houses here for short term rent.  Where as, my Mother has a vacation place in  a sort after vacation place and has very few renters due to too many houses for rents.  A case of supply and demand.

Good points - having a rental house in an area with fewer rental houses may be a good thing.  Never thought of it that way.

gerardc

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2016, 01:26:02 AM »
I'm interested in the same question for a renter. At which point (length of travel) does it become worthwhile to sublease your apartment? I'm guessing for 1-2 months it's not worth the hassle. At 3+ months, you might want to sync your trip with the end of your lease and leave altogether... Or try subleasing. Also depends if you're in a touristy/seasonal area. I'm afraid this is all case by case with a few variables factoring in.

deborah

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2016, 01:38:08 AM »
I have been traveling for more than eight months of the year for the past few years. It is wonderful to come back home each time.

Some of it has been international, and some domestic travel. Some for two or three months at a time, and some for a week. I never thought I would travel much in retirement, but it's happening.

Home has my fruit trees, my vegetable garden, and my hobbies. It's important to me, and I still don't think I'm a traveler. Maybe I'll reconsider in a few years, but we bought our forever house more than a few years ago, and it's still my forever house.

pbkmaine

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2016, 04:24:22 AM »
Who looks after the house while you're gone, deborah?

Spitfire

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2016, 08:43:24 AM »
I generally have my sister check on.the place for me but have a roommate currently so she's around to do that.

If you have an extra bedroom, having a roommate seems like a good idea. Someone will always be in the house, but you can still have your things in your room and a home base to come back to. Sharing the space might not be too inconvenient if you're only around half the time.

rachael talcott

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2016, 04:53:42 PM »
A word of warning for those traveling and leaving their house empty:  I've had insurance canceled for leaving a house unoccupied for longer than a month.  At times, I've ended up paying very high rates (like triple) because I wanted a house to be covered while unoccupied.  If something were to happen and they found out that it was unoccupied, they might be able to deny the claim. 

NinetyFour

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2016, 05:14:53 PM »
Following...

rachael talcott

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2016, 07:40:09 AM »
A word of warning for those traveling and leaving their house empty:  I've had insurance canceled for leaving a house unoccupied for longer than a month.  At times, I've ended up paying very high rates (like triple) because I wanted a house to be covered while unoccupied.  If something were to happen and they found out that it was unoccupied, they might be able to deny the claim.
I have heard this before too but how would they know? My mail comes into the house via a slot in the door and I have a gardener to mow the front yard plus solar monitor lights outside and lights on timers inside. I turn the water off at the meter myself and have someone check the place every few days. The only way the insurance co would know if I was gone longer than a couple of weeks is if I told them.

Probably the only way you'd have a problem is if you had a major claim and they did an investigation.  It might be okay, but if I were going to do this I'd ask the insurance company first to be on the safe side. 

arebelspy

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2016, 01:40:54 PM »
Probably the only way you'd have a problem is if you had a major claim and they did an investigation.  It might be okay, but if I were going to do this I'd ask the insurance company first to be on the safe side.

Right.  If they ask, and you lie, well, insurance fraud is a potential problem.

And if something happens (say, pipe leaks) and you're gone, and come back and discover it, and it's been weeks, so lots of damage, they'll immediately question how did it go so long without you fixing it.  Then try to deny coverage based on fine print of the house being "vacant."

I'd just get someone to check in and stay the night every once in awhile, to get around this (and make sure everything's okay).  (Of course, read your terms and conditions.)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2017, 03:15:13 AM »
Probably the only way you'd have a problem is if you had a major claim and they did an investigation.  It might be okay, but if I were going to do this I'd ask the insurance company first to be on the safe side.

Right.  If they ask, and you lie, well, insurance fraud is a potential problem.

And if something happens (say, pipe leaks) and you're gone, and come back and discover it, and it's been weeks, so lots of damage, they'll immediately question how did it go so long without you fixing it.  Then try to deny coverage based on fine print of the house being "vacant."

I'd just get someone to check in and stay the night every once in awhile, to get around this (and make sure everything's okay).  (Of course, read your terms and conditions.)

When we were away there was a big difference between insurance companies as to what was considered 'vacant'. One needed it to be occupied for (something like) 8 hours or overnight for 50% of the time with no more than 14 days between occupations, another required the door to be opened every 60 days. We went with the second one.

jim555

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2017, 05:12:58 AM »
The cost of owning should consider the fact that the money tied up in the home doesn't earn any return.  So someone with a paid off $800,000 home that pays $2,000 in taxes is actually loosing $48,000 (800,000 x 6%) a year in potential income.  The home is really costing $50,000 a year.

Libertea

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2017, 07:48:17 AM »
I move frequently (every 2-5 years) and have never owned any real estate (unless you count my REIT fund).  Have actually been considering buying an RV.  Maybe this would be an option the OP could consider also.

While we're on the topic, has anyone here lived in an RV pre-FIRE and/or seriously considered doing this (i.e., researching it)?  Besides the obvious need to divest oneself of many possessions d/t lack of room, any other advice or surprises or thoughts about the transition?

2Saving4Life

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2017, 11:17:35 AM »


While we're on the topic, has anyone here lived in an RV pre-FIRE and/or seriously considered doing this (i.e., researching it)?  Besides the obvious need to divest oneself of many possessions d/t lack of room, any other advice or surprises or thoughts about the transition?

We have seriously considered living in the RV full time.  We purchased an RV in September and have been considering it for this year after the snow melts.  The biggest drawback for us is the weather here.  -5 F temps and 12+ inches of snow could make it difficult.  Adding skirting and insulation would help but I'm uncertain of how effective it would be.  Lots of people do it so it is possible in cold and snowy areas.  The upper 90's and 100+ F days of summer would be a challenge but easier than the winter.  Weather extremes pose difficulties.  A more temperate climate would be easier.

Another drawback here is the location, RV parks within the city aren't pretty (your city could be different).  There are some just outside the city but would add time to the commute if you're still working (this is what I would choose especially for part time work).  From what I've found it looks like it would cost 60 to 70% of what we pay now to move into an RV.  We got a great deal on the rental house we are in now, so for others it could cost 50% or less. 

I found it way more difficult than expected to find a well taken care of RV for a great price.  Build quality is very different between makes and models, do your homework.  Start looking at RV's now.  Look and inspect as many as possible, you will begin to spot the problem RV's.  There are many of them.  I found that about 1 in 20 was very well taken care of.  Those are what I'm looking for. 

Much of that might be seen as negative but I think that moving into an RV is a great long term housing solution.  Especially for those of us that would like to travel internationally for 3 to 6 months and then come back and tour the US.  Then maybe work for awhile or visit family.  We want to be able to change things up and live in multiple places.

The RV we purchased is huge at 40 ft long, but it's about 300 sq ft.  Which I think is a great amount of space for us.  Could we have gone smaller?  Probably, but we were worried about feeling cramped and wanting to sell it due to lack of space.  We weren't going to purchase one unless it was a smoking deal.  Insurance valued ours at $61,000, we paid $30,000. 

In my opinion the best RV deals are 10 plus years old and no slides.  Everyone wants slides and many banks won't give loans on 10+ years old RV's.   My target market was the 32-40ft late 90's high end models with extras like solar and recent updates.  We started out looking at class c's but this is what we ended up with. 

Long term storage if not using it, additional transportation needed, maintenance, depreciation, and expensive parts (depends on what systems the RV has) are other considerations not mentioned but should be considered.  I've derailed this thread enough already.




toppdealer

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2017, 07:01:18 PM »
We are sort of in this position now...

Own a Class A RV. Spent about 6 weeks in the fall traveling through all the National Parks in the NW. We were home for Nov/Dec. Then went to St Thomas and Florida for two months. Plan to come back for 2-3 weeks and then are considering New Zealand for 4 weeks or so. We would probably return for April and then head out to do the SW. We have a townhouse that is zero maintenance (outside) and requires very little inside- built in 2007. I have Arlo Pro cameras that give me peace of mind outside, and an Ecobee that keeps the temps going inside. Our home is paid off, and costs to hold are relatively low (taxes 1400/yr, insurance 600/yr, hoa 100/mo, electric/gas- 100/mo, internet/tv- 50/mo). We've found ways to save when RV'ing, as we can go off grid for about 4-5 days at a time. We frequent Harvest Hosts (free stays), Boondockers Welcome (free stays), and Passport America (50% off tons of RV places). I hope this helps. Cheers.

Metric Mouse

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2017, 07:49:05 PM »
The cost of owning should consider the fact that the money tied up in the home doesn't earn any return.  So someone with a paid off $800,000 home that pays $2,000 in taxes is actually loosing $48,000 (800,000 x 6%) a year in potential income.  The home is really costing $50,000 a year.
Don't forget to subtract any appreciation in price into that. And then that difference must be taken into account on how much it would cost to rent the same property. Depending on the area, $2k a month in rent would probably not be unreasonable (for what I imagine an 800K buys), so if the value raises at 3% and offsets 2K per month in rent, it's about break even.

itchyfeet

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2017, 08:12:13 PM »
My idea of the moment is

1. We rent a long term rental in Phuket Thailand which will be our home - cheap rent, cheap cost of living.
2. I offer all my Facebook friends in Sydney a house swap if they want a vacation. I would figure on getting a month or 2 in Sydney rent free each year and my friends will get an bargain holiday in Phuket (Phuket is popular for Aussies and their are fairly cheap flights between Sydney and Phuket).
3. What I save in rent and living expenses will pad out my travel budget for other trips, which would be cheaper given that Thialand is closer to the rest of the world than Australia is.

When I am done with excessive international travel in 20 or 30 years time I will relocate back to Australia.


Dicey

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2017, 12:10:29 PM »
I move frequently (every 2-5 years) and have never owned any real estate (unless you count my REIT fund).  Have actually been considering buying an RV.  Maybe this would be an option the OP could consider also.

While we're on the topic, has anyone here lived in an RV pre-FIRE and/or seriously considered doing this (i.e., researching it)?  Besides the obvious need to divest oneself of many possessions d/t lack of room, any other advice or surprises or thoughts about the transition?
Hey Libertea you might want to check out:

hitchitch.com

So many blogs of people traveling and living in RV's, there are sure to be some that will resonate with you. In my pre-FIRE days, I spent a lot of time here and found it very useful.

Libertea

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2017, 08:43:13 AM »
Thanks, Diane, I'll check it out.

Cassie

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2017, 02:13:00 PM »
I would advise anyone considering living in an RV to take a month or so trip and see how you like it. I found a month to be too long in a 27 ft RV but we do have 4 dogs ( 3 are tiny). Also you won't be able to entertain, have much company for dinner etc so something else to think about. WE met some people on our trip that lived in them and loved them but they are not for everyone.  It is hard to keep them warm when the weather is quite cold which is why most full timers follow the sun:)).

shadowmoss

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Re: The crossover point where you travel so much you shouldn't own a home
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2017, 05:33:09 PM »
The weather is definitely a deciding issue when living full-time  in an RV.  I currently live in a 27' class c with my cat.  Im probably going to move into another older class a soon to have more room and storage.  I am also in the Phoenix metro area, dry and warm in general.  If I leave for an extended trip I can leave it in the park I'm currently living in or I can put it in storage someplace that is not as hot in the summer as here.  I've heard that storage in Rye, which is 60 miles away and at 4000 feet elevation is around $25/mo.  Since my primary plan for now it to move the rv to wherever I want to live, that isn't an issue for me.  If I decide to move to Thailand for an extended vacation I would probably put the RV in storage.  I don't have high dollar rv's so other than general weatherizing I would have few concerns about leaving it.