Author Topic: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris  (Read 29855 times)

rachael talcott

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Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« on: October 13, 2022, 03:03:46 AM »
I haven't logged into MMM for awhile, but it popped into my mind today.  Back when I was working toward FI, I spent a lot of time here to get through the hard days, so maybe this will be inspirational to someone else. 

I retired from my academic job about six years ago, and my FI came from a combination of saving income and buying foreclosures to rent back when they were cheap.  I sold the investment houses off one at a time and then moved from the southern US to Paris, France in January of this year.  I recently uploaded my documents to renew my residency permit for another year.

Because I hated my job and the place where I lived, I went for a moderately lean FI of about 3000 USD per month, which right now is about 3090 EUR.  The exchange rate introduces another level of uncertainty into my future, but I have purchased enough euros to get by for a year or so, which would at least give me time to move someplace cheaper if needed. The average salary for a singleton in my neighborhood is about 2300 EUR/mo, so I'm well above average at the current exchange rate. 

My total housing costs (rent, insurance, utilities, fees) are about 1700 EUR/month. I have a 1 BR apartment in the Latin quarter.

Food costs vary a lot depending on eating out, but about 80-200 EUR/month.  I found a market with good quality seasonal produce for 1-2 euros per kilo (50 cents to 1 USD per pound), and a budget grocery store for the rest. You can spend a ton on food if you want to, but you can also find high-quality inexpensive food if you're willing to accept the inconvenience of walking to it.

Miscellaneous non-food items are also about 100-200 EUR/month, although I could get that down if I needed to.

I go on one weekish-length trip every few months.  These cost a few hundred euros each.  If I'm going alone I camp (backpack camping is normal in France) but I've also done trips where I split the cost of a hotel room with a friend. I've done multiple day trips that cost very little.  A round-trip train ticket in the Ile-de-France region maxes out at 10 euros and you can get a week pass for about 22. A surprising number of museums in Paris are free, and of course just walking around and soaking in the ambience is free. I walk on average a few hours per day. At first my back and feet complained but within a few months it was nothing.

I had a dental emergency that ended up costing me a little over 100 euros, although I will get 70% of that back when my health insurance card comes in.  This could take years.  I was required to buy an insurance policy that would cover a major medical event in order to get a visa.  Also, my dental emergency happened at the end of July, just as everyone was going on vacation, so I had to wait a month until things started up again in September before it could be completely resolved. 

The cost to get the visa was about 1000 USD, with the biggest expenses being the aforementioned insurance and also plane tickets to fly to the nearest consulate. I have a visitor's visa (VLS-TS) which is very easy for FI people to get.  You just have to jump through the paperwork hoops to show that you can afford to live here.  This visa does not allow me to work and is renewable on a yearly basis.  After five years I will be eligible for a 10-year residency card, which would allow me to work.  I could also apply for citizenship at that point, which requires a mountain of paperwork and several years but would give me the right to live and work anywhere in the eurozone. It would also get me out of the 225 EUR fee every time I renew my residency permit. I plan to try for this.

In terms of my general quality of life and mental state, moving to France is one of the best life decisions I've ever made.  The combination of increased exercise and beautiful surroundings make more of a difference than I would have thought.  Making friends has been pretty easy, and it feels like my personality fits the French way of life much better than the US way of life.  People here work less and spend less in order to have a less stressful life, and enjoy the simple things.  Although there are some social tensions, they are just nowhere near as nasty as they have gotten in the US.  There are social protests but they are not typically framed as personal attacks on the other side.  It's more just keeping a social balance going.  The whole social structure just seems a lot more stable.  People think in terms of solidarity. There is a campaign to reduce electricity usage this winter, even though our electricity generation is not dependent on fossil fuels, in order to be able to share the saved electricity with neighboring countries.

The thing that is the biggest hang-up for American expats here is that there is no expectation that life will be convenient.  The big news this week is that refinery workers are on strike, leading to gasoline shortages.  People in "service jobs" do not think that they exist to serve you. Sometimes the trains stop running and there is nothing you can do about it.  Being here as a foreigner requires navigating a maze of bureaucracy.  You have to figure out how to work within the system, which has rules that are rules, and rules that are flexible.  Some people thrive under this system, and some just never adjust. 

So if you frustrated with the US, consider doing some research into life in other places. I don't think it's for everyone, but for me, it's even better than I thought it would be.

Shane

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2022, 06:55:54 AM »
Sounds like life in Paris suits you. Parisians are often made out to be unfriendly and rude, but that's never been our experience, at all. We keep hearing about all of the cool new cycling infrastructure improvements that Mayor Hidalgo has been putting in place since Covid started. It sounds amazing. Can't wait to get back to Paris someday and check out the new bike paths around the city. It looks like there are several in the Latin Quarter. Are you enjoying getting around the city by bike? Transit? Walking? How's your French? Thanks for sharing about your Long-Stay Visa. Hadn't realized that that might be a possibility.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2022, 07:13:27 AM »
Thank you for sharing your experience, it sounds amazing. Congratulations on being so brave and just going for it.  Are you fluent in french? That would be a roadblock for me, but I imagine one would learn fast by immersion. I'm a huge fan of the Nice area and could see myself living and being happy there. We've thought about living abroad, partner is even eligible for dual citizenship with a little paperwork but hasn't done it yet. I have so much family here and I think I'd miss them. What has that been like for you?

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2022, 08:21:54 AM »
Sounds like life in Paris suits you. Parisians are often made out to be unfriendly and rude, but that's never been our experience, at all. We keep hearing about all of the cool new cycling infrastructure improvements that Mayor Hidalgo has been putting in place since Covid started. It sounds amazing. Can't wait to get back to Paris someday and check out the new bike paths around the city. It looks like there are several in the Latin Quarter. Are you enjoying getting around the city by bike? Transit? Walking? How's your French? Thanks for sharing about your Long-Stay Visa. Hadn't realized that that might be a possibility.

Yes, agree about Parisians being mostly polite, as long as you are polite to them. 

I actually went out of my way to bring an electric folding bike and rarely use it.  Most of the "bike lanes" are shared between bikes, buses, and taxis.  In the places where there are dedicated, they are right next to pedestrian lanes and the tourists spill over into them.  I still want to do a long-distance bikepacking tour at some point, though.  In the city, I mostly just walk, but keep transit tickets loaded into my phone if I need them. I love not needing a car.

My French is about B1, which is survival level but not fluent. I really should put more effort into improving, but I am having too much fun doing other things.


rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2022, 08:37:11 AM »
Thank you for sharing your experience, it sounds amazing. Congratulations on being so brave and just going for it.  Are you fluent in french? That would be a roadblock for me, but I imagine one would learn fast by immersion. I'm a huge fan of the Nice area and could see myself living and being happy there. We've thought about living abroad, partner is even eligible for dual citizenship with a little paperwork but hasn't done it yet. I have so much family here and I think I'd miss them. What has that been like for you?

Thanks, but I don't really feel brave. More just relieved and grateful.

My French is about B1, so not fluent, but I get by. I keep meaning to get a conversation partner via www.conversationexchange.com, but so far have been enjoying life too much. I took classes when I was working toward FI, and it was well worth it.

I actually thought that I might want to live in Nice, but when I visited, it felt like the Florida of France -- a fantastic place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.  I do know that many Americans love living in that area, though.

There are a lot of tensions within my family, so it's actually been good to have some distance.  I know some Americans here say that they see their relatives more often now that they can offer free lodging in France.  But if you have close relationships in the same area where you are now, I can see how it would be hard to leave that. 

If you have any inclination to move to France in the future, it's probably best to start the paperwork for your partner at least a few years in advance.  If their birth was registered with the French government, it's easy, but if not it can take a really long time.


Watchmaker

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2022, 08:50:56 AM »
That sounds like a great lifestyle you've built for yourself. While I'm happy in the States for now, my FIRE plans do include spending some years living abroad. Did you explore other places or did you always know you wanted to move to France?

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2022, 10:29:18 AM »
How did you prove your income? Did you have to set up monthly transfers from your brokerage account to your checking account or is your account balance sufficient?

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2022, 12:21:54 PM »
How hard is it to pull money out of your American investment accounts? I have dual citizenship and have been planning on moving to a different EU country once I get something between 1 and 2 million saved, but it's the logistics that make me nervous. Also, just how headache inducing is the tax situation? I'm so thrilled for you!

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2022, 12:41:34 PM »
That sounds like a great lifestyle you've built for yourself. While I'm happy in the States for now, my FIRE plans do include spending some years living abroad. Did you explore other places or did you always know you wanted to move to France?

Years ago I was invited to participate in an exchange program, which sent me to France for a month, and I fell in love with the place.  I know a lot of people do a big comparison between France, Italy, Portugal, and Spain, but I never looked anywhere else. 

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2022, 12:48:48 PM »
How did you prove your income? Did you have to set up monthly transfers from your brokerage account to your checking account or is your account balance sufficient?

I had to print out the last three months of statements from brokerages and checking accounts in order to apply for the visa.  I also wrote up a cover page with the total amounts in USD with EUR equivalents explained.  They looked at it pretty closely when I applied, but it was apparently enough.  The minimum requirement right now to apply for a visa is 1231 euros per month, so even a modest FI portfolio looks pretty good.

I opened a French bank account after arrival and moved some euros into it, as I've heard that it looks better for renewal, but now that the exchange rate is so favorable to my situation, I have been mostly charging everything to my US credit card (Chase Sapphire) to get points.

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2022, 01:04:21 PM »
How hard is it to pull money out of your American investment accounts? I have dual citizenship and have been planning on moving to a different EU country once I get something between 1 and 2 million saved, but it's the logistics that make me nervous. Also, just how headache inducing is the tax situation? I'm so thrilled for you!

Thanks!

I did a ton of research on this and ended up with Interactive Brokers.  They were the only company I could find that would let me move money fairly easily, as they are set up for both ETF on the US side and SEPA on the European side, and also allow for Forex trading to do the conversion. They do have a requirement that the money be in the account for a few months, so I set it up in advance in the US and then had to convert it to a European account, which was a bit of a pain, but now it all works smoothly. The cost for the Forex trade is a flat $2 for any amount up to $200K. I have retained my Schwab account and it's easy to move USD between Schwab and IB, and also to move EUR between IB and my French bank.

I was really more stressed about getting this set up in advance than I needed to be, since my US credit card was fine to sign up for cell service, to pay my rent, and to use at stores to get set up.  But not every rental agency takes credit cards, so YMMV.

I know a lot of people swear by Transferwise, now Wise, but for more than a few hundred dollars, IB is cheaper.

I haven't been here long enough to file taxes.  US citizens have to file in the US, no matter where we live.  As a French fiscal resident I will file in France, but because my income is from US sources (ie stocks traded on US exchanges) I will get an exemption equal to the amount of French tax that would be owed, zeroing out my French income tax.  I will still pay tax in the US as usual.  There is also a health care cotisation that's not really considered a tax, but it's based on worldwide income. I don't think I will owe anything for this year, as my income is below the threshold.  See: https://www.aaro.org/health-insurance/special-note-for-residents-in-france

Because I'm no longer a resident of the US, I'm not allowed to buy US mutual funds / ETFs.  But I can keep what I had before the move.


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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2022, 01:48:34 PM »
Well, if you were in Paris already in July, then you have sweated through the record heat.  We were in Paris in early July for a week, and it hit 100 degrees Fahrenheit on our first day!  Thank God we had a basement!  We spent a lot of time browsing hypermarkets and patisseries, basking in their A/C.

We loved seeing Notre Dame again.  We lived in Dublin when it burned, so we saw it live, and shared the shock.  I'm so hopeful they can save the structure, even if it will be, understandably, different.

I hope your adventure continues to meet or exceed your expectations.

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2022, 10:37:50 PM »
Well, if you were in Paris already in July, then you have sweated through the record heat.  We were in Paris in early July for a week, and it hit 100 degrees Fahrenheit on our first day!  Thank God we had a basement!  We spent a lot of time browsing hypermarkets and patisseries, basking in their A/C.

We loved seeing Notre Dame again.  We lived in Dublin when it burned, so we saw it live, and shared the shock.  I'm so hopeful they can save the structure, even if it will be, understandably, different.

I hope your adventure continues to meet or exceed your expectations.

Thanks!

Yes, this summer the temp peaked at 104F.  The temp in my apartment peaked at 85F, though, since it has so much thermal mass.  I was fine with a fan.  Coming from the southern US, I was really worried about not having AC, as I'm used to walking outside being like getting hit in the face with a wet warm washcloth.  It really is true that a dry heat is less unpleasant.


kiwigirls

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2022, 12:40:29 AM »
PTF - a year or so in France is definitely on our post fire plans so looking forward to following your experience

Dreamer40

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2022, 04:06:54 PM »
This is super interesting, thanks for posting. I was in France this summer and really fell in love with Lyon. Cleaner and smaller than Paris. Great ambiance. But I don’t see myself relocating outside the US anytime soon. My partner still works and I’m keeping an eye on aging parents. But it’s interesting to potentially think about for the future and hear how it’s worked out for you.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2022, 12:29:46 AM »
This is all very interesting, thanks. Husband and I have talked about moving out of the US but it seems daunting, especially at our ages (64 and 66). I’m originally from Washington DC, and when I was in Paris three years ago, it felt similar in some ways, though much more livable and certainly more charming! There was just something about it that felt more like “home” than other cities in Europe.

Edited to add: I don’t know why I added a year to each of our ages! Thinking ahead I guess.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 11:59:13 AM by OzzieandHarriet »

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2022, 05:48:55 AM »
This is all very interesting, thanks. Husband and I have talked about moving out of the US but it seems daunting, especially at our ages (64 and 66). I’m originally from Washington DC, and when I was in Paris three years ago, it felt similar in some ways, though much more livable and certainly more charming! There was just something about it that felt more like “home” than other cities in Europe.

There are actually a lot of people who move here at traditional retirement age, because it's so easy to get a visa if you're FI. If you're intimidated by the paperwork, there are people you can hire to walk you through it. But I haven't found it to be too onerous.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2022, 06:27:18 AM »
Just popping in to say that if Italy is more your speed, there is also a "retirement visa" here (elective residency visa) that you can get if you have a certain passive income. You're not allowed to work at all though.  I know a lot of people who have done it here both younger and older retirees.

Life is also substantially cheaper here than in most US, Canadian, Australian etc cities. It's similar here to in France, in that it's a lot less convenient than the US but expectations are also different.  Things like good food and wine, transport (trains etc but not cars) and even rents are cheaper here.  Of course salaries are also much lower but if you have a pension or income from overseas then you can live a very nice life here. 

Fru-Gal

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2022, 10:29:09 AM »
PTF

Pookie

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2022, 08:24:19 PM »
What a life!!
I love the experience of being in places that are completely foreign.
Life is short- and I think moving abroad is just a great way to live!! THANK you for the inspiration!
My biggest issue now - I have pets. You wouldn't happened to have moved with pets or have any input? I have nothing to hold me back but them. Got to figure out a way around that but with them!

Please keep us updated. And inspired! Thank you!!!


reeshau

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2022, 01:02:27 PM »
What a life!!
I love the experience of being in places that are completely foreign.
Life is short- and I think moving abroad is just a great way to live!! THANK you for the inspiration!
My biggest issue now - I have pets. You wouldn't happened to have moved with pets or have any input? I have nothing to hold me back but them. Got to figure out a way around that but with them!

Please keep us updated. And inspired! Thank you!!!

We took two cats to Ireland.  I had heard tales of quarantine periods, but we did not have to do that.  It is, however, expensive.  To enter the EU with a pet, you will need your State's certified veterinarian to provide a certificate of health, I believe within 48 hours of your departure.  (In Michigan, this involves traveling to Lansing, the state capital, foe the only valid signature.  And oh by the way, the vet screwed up the first form) Planes have very limited capacity to carry pets in the cabin, even larger wide body planes limit them.  (Generally one in business class, one in coach, in specific types of carriers)  And there are additional entry procedures for your pets at the destination, generally in facilities not physically connected to passenger terminals.  For all these reasons, you will want to get some help with these steps.  (The price of noncompliance can be up to 6 months' quarantine)

The bill for our kitties was north of $5k each, each way.  Fortunately work paid for one way, at least.  But we joked that they had the most expensive tickets.

ca-rn

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2022, 03:47:06 PM »
What a life!!
I love the experience of being in places that are completely foreign.
Life is short- and I think moving abroad is just a great way to live!! THANK you for the inspiration!
My biggest issue now - I have pets. You wouldn't happened to have moved with pets or have any input? I have nothing to hold me back but them. Got to figure out a way around that but with them!

Please keep us updated. And inspired! Thank you!!!

I know of a coworker's family member who just moved to France with their dogs!  They just flew over with them.  I don't think there was any quarantine (like Hawaii) requirements.

ca-rn

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2022, 03:57:51 PM »
Wow, congrats on your first year in Paris!

Please update how filing your US taxes go next year.  Do you ever plan to return to the US to live?  Medicare?

I'm waiting a few more years until 55 to take advantage of the Rule of 55 before taking off for long term international travel.  Either find a place to live permanently or return back to the US after 65 (loose plan).

PTF!

MisterA

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2022, 03:51:16 AM »
My biggest issue now - I have pets. You wouldn't happened to have moved with pets or have any input? I have nothing to hold me back but them. Got to figure out a way around that but with them!
Pets aren't really any problem, check this out:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/carry/animal-plant/index_en.htm

Congratulations to the OP by the way, hope you enjoy France - a lovely country. Personally, I prefer some of the other areas

Nobody fancy a little project, for example this cheap 16 bedroom chateaux:
https://www.my-french-house.com/property-in-france/roanne-loire-auvergne-rh%C3%B4ne-alpes/chateau/80809

Could easily generate a little income stream as well.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 04:48:51 AM by MisterA »

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2022, 12:15:29 PM »
Wow, congrats on your first year in Paris!

Please update how filing your US taxes go next year.  Do you ever plan to return to the US to live?  Medicare?

I'm waiting a few more years until 55 to take advantage of the Rule of 55 before taking off for long term international travel.  Either find a place to live permanently or return back to the US after 65 (loose plan).

PTF!

Thanks!  Right now I'd love to stay, but I also know that the future is unpredictable, so I'm not making any promises to myself.  I'm way too young for Medicare, but my understanding is that I'd have to sign up at a specific time for it or pay a penalty if I wanted it in the future.  I know some Americans in France pay for the Medicare just in case they want to go back or need it while traveling in the US.

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2022, 12:32:49 PM »
What a life!!
I love the experience of being in places that are completely foreign.
Life is short- and I think moving abroad is just a great way to live!! THANK you for the inspiration!
My biggest issue now - I have pets. You wouldn't happened to have moved with pets or have any input? I have nothing to hold me back but them. Got to figure out a way around that but with them!

Please keep us updated. And inspired! Thank you!!!

I don't have pets, but I know some people do move with them.  They need paperwork, but it can be done.  There are companies you can hire to help with the paperwork and handle the transportation.

The main worry of pet owners about to make the big move seems to be the actual transportation.  Animals have died or escaped during transport in a plane. I remember one group organized online to share the cost of a private jet that would fly them and their animals.  Some people have done the trip by boat so that their animals would not be subjected to a plane, but that does take a long time, and boats can also be scary for animals.  I think it would be pretty easy to move with one small pet that can count as your cabin luggage. It would be harder if you have many large animals.  There are lots of FB groups for people planning the move, and there has been a lot of discussion of moving with pets, so it might be worth checking out.

Once you are in France, it's a very pet-friendly place.  It's illegal for landlords to refuse long-term rentals on the basis of pet ownership, and people regularly carry their pets on public transportation and into some stores and restaurants.  Because people go on vacation for a month in the summer, their pets usually go with them.  The dogs of Paris are shockingly well-behaved.  I see little dogs waiting silently and motionlessly outside of a shop on a crowded street while their owner is inside. There are fewer cats in public, but I've seen cats on leashes chilling with their owners in central Paris.

reeshau

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2022, 02:43:44 PM »
It's illegal for landlords to refuse long-term rentals on the basis of pet ownership,

This is another good thing to check.  Unfortunately, there is no such protection in Ireland.  Having a pet took you out of consideration for about 90% of landlords in Dublin.  We did find a place, though, with fairly standard pet deposit / pet rent for our 2 cats.  Lots of people there had dogs, but you just cannot rent there with a big dog.

cannotWAIT

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2022, 04:15:36 PM »
This is fascinating. Do you mind if I ask what your total stash is? I ask because based on your statement that your FIRE income is around $3000/month, I think I'm in about the same financial position--if I were to sell my house today, I would have about $850K. Will you receive a pension? This sounds like my ideal life. I also had no idea that it was possible to gain citizenship in this way.

Prairie Gal

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2022, 06:19:53 PM »
Thanks for sharing your experience in moving to Paris. It sounds like a dream come true. I am pretty surprised that a one bedroom apartment in cental Paris is not more expensive. Was it hard to find and rent? I have heard that it is really hard to buy an apartment there.

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2022, 10:59:30 AM »
This is fascinating. Do you mind if I ask what your total stash is? I ask because based on your statement that your FIRE income is around $3000/month, I think I'm in about the same financial position--if I were to sell my house today, I would have about $850K. Will you receive a pension? This sounds like my ideal life. I also had no idea that it was possible to gain citizenship in this way.

Right now my net worth is about $1.1 million, but when I quit my job six years ago, it was about $850K.  I think it peaked at about $1.2 million. It's hard to say at what point in there I technically retired, because I was doing work on my rental properties for five years after quitting my job, but when I run the numbers in FIREcalc, the $3000/mo number seems reasonably safe as a spending cap.  I'm actually spending less than that most months. But I'd like to be conservative here at the beginning of my retirement, because that's the most vulnerable period.

No pension, but I should get a little bit of social security.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 11:17:55 AM by rachael talcott »

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2022, 11:12:51 AM »
Thanks for sharing your experience in moving to Paris. It sounds like a dream come true. I am pretty surprised that a one bedroom apartment in cental Paris is not more expensive. Was it hard to find and rent? I have heard that it is really hard to buy an apartment there.

It's actually illegally expensive for the size, although the legally priced apartments are very hard to come by for people like me who don't have a regular job or pension income.  I wouldn't say it was difficult to get this one.  I went through an agency and picked four that I liked and this was the only one where the landlord accepted me.  It was super easy to find an initial three-month rental when I was first moving here, because long-term renters have very strong rights, which means that landlords are very hesitant to rent long term.  So there was always the option of doing another short term rental if I couldn't find a long-term one.   

It's hard to buy an apartment in the sense that it's very expensive, and difficult to get a mortgage if you are not working. But if you have cash, there's no restriction on a foreigner buying one.  Most sales are done without realtors, and there is not MLS, so it depends a lot on knowing people, as well.

maizefolk

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2022, 11:31:45 AM »
Thanks for sharing your experience in moving to Paris. It sounds like a dream come true. I am pretty surprised that a one bedroom apartment in cental Paris is not more expensive. Was it hard to find and rent? I have heard that it is really hard to buy an apartment there.

I'm just going to add the Paris is a remarkable city. 2x the population density of NYC with 1/3rd the rental prices (which are is still a high number by most the USA's standards).

lutorm

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2022, 01:17:53 PM »
Because I'm no longer a resident of the US, I'm not allowed to buy US mutual funds / ETFs.  But I can keep what I had before the move.
Is this an IB rule or some result of a French rule? We're planning to move to Sweden and I verified with Fidelity that I will be able to keep my account and the only restriction is that you can't buy mutual funds. There should be no problem trading ETFs.

Interesting you say IB exchanges are cheaper than Wise. I should look into that. I've just been expecting to use Wise to get money into our Swedish accounts.

daverobev

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2022, 02:10:33 PM »
Because I'm no longer a resident of the US, I'm not allowed to buy US mutual funds / ETFs.  But I can keep what I had before the move.
Is this an IB rule or some result of a French rule? We're planning to move to Sweden and I verified with Fidelity that I will be able to keep my account and the only restriction is that you can't buy mutual funds. There should be no problem trading ETFs.

Interesting you say IB exchanges are cheaper than Wise. I should look into that. I've just been expecting to use Wise to get money into our Swedish accounts.

EU law, an EU resident can only buy PRIIPs compliant funds https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/priips-disclosure-key-information-documents

If you can keep a non-EU brokerage account you can do what you like in it, though obviously you need to tell them where you are domiciled for tax. IB forces you to move your account to whatever arm is based where you are (Ireland or Luxembourg for EU residents). It's a real shame, because (and I suppose this is because of Canadian regulations) a non-Canadian account can't pay Canadian dollars in at all to their new Irish arm at the moment, for example. And there are all sorts of other bits of weirdness - eg with IB Canada (and I assume the US but I don't know), if you have the ability to take out a margin loan you can also withdraw cash and go into debt. Eg say I have $100k invested, cash balance zero, I can withdraw $1000.

With IB-IE, I can only take out cash that's there, a positive balance - but I can buy on margin. So say I have a $0 balance, sell some stocks worth $1000, I can then withdraw that $1000... and rebuy the stocks I sold, and have a balance of -$1000. Makes no sense to me at all.

IB is MUCH cheaper than Wise for forex. You are basically just paying a couple of dollars, and getting almost the spot price, vs Wise taking about half a percent.

French tax returns are really not that bad. Not hard to do, relatively speaking.

Just note that you must declare all foreign bank accounts and investment accounts.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 02:13:40 PM by daverobev »

mspym

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2022, 02:41:26 PM »
Because I'm no longer a resident of the US, I'm not allowed to buy US mutual funds / ETFs.  But I can keep what I had before the move.
Is this an IB rule or some result of a French rule? We're planning to move to Sweden and I verified with Fidelity that I will be able to keep my account and the only restriction is that you can't buy mutual funds. There should be no problem trading ETFs.

Interesting you say IB exchanges are cheaper than Wise. I should look into that. I've just been expecting to use Wise to get money into our Swedish accounts.
It's a byproduct of FATCA and whether or not your brokerage firm wants to take on the risk of incorrect reporting.
- https://creativeplanning.com/international/insights/why-us-brokerage-accounts-of-american-expats-are-being-closed/

lutorm

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2022, 03:38:18 PM »
Because I'm no longer a resident of the US, I'm not allowed to buy US mutual funds / ETFs.  But I can keep what I had before the move.
Is this an IB rule or some result of a French rule? We're planning to move to Sweden and I verified with Fidelity that I will be able to keep my account and the only restriction is that you can't buy mutual funds. There should be no problem trading ETFs.

Interesting you say IB exchanges are cheaper than Wise. I should look into that. I've just been expecting to use Wise to get money into our Swedish accounts.
It's a byproduct of FATCA and whether or not your brokerage firm wants to take on the risk of incorrect reporting.
- https://creativeplanning.com/international/insights/why-us-brokerage-accounts-of-american-expats-are-being-closed/
That's certainly an issue for foreign assets, but as far as I understand there is no reporting requirement of US assets under FATCA.  So it's weird it would be an issue for US brokerages. That article wasn't very clear on what the issue would be.

mspym

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2022, 04:37:43 PM »
Because I'm no longer a resident of the US, I'm not allowed to buy US mutual funds / ETFs.  But I can keep what I had before the move.
Is this an IB rule or some result of a French rule? We're planning to move to Sweden and I verified with Fidelity that I will be able to keep my account and the only restriction is that you can't buy mutual funds. There should be no problem trading ETFs.

Interesting you say IB exchanges are cheaper than Wise. I should look into that. I've just been expecting to use Wise to get money into our Swedish accounts.
It's a byproduct of FATCA and whether or not your brokerage firm wants to take on the risk of incorrect reporting.
- https://creativeplanning.com/international/insights/why-us-brokerage-accounts-of-american-expats-are-being-closed/
That's certainly an issue for foreign assets, but as far as I understand there is no reporting requirement of US assets under FATCA.  So it's weird it would be an issue for US brokerages. That article wasn't very clear on what the issue would be.
There is no actual regulation preventing US expats from buying US assets but after FATCA came in almost all US brokerages just decided they weren't going to touch it with a bargepole. My American husband also had his US bank accounts closed down, which has been a real PITA when it comes to owing $2.13 in IRS readjustments (FUBAR!) and trying to pay it.

Poeirenta

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2022, 11:06:45 AM »
Thanks for sharing your experiences! We've been looking at the D7 visa for Portugal, but we also love France and I can speak French reasonably well. Plus, the cidre in Bretagne is outstanding!

I tried googling this, but didn't come up with anything, so maybe you can help. Is there a required amount of time you have to be in France on the long stay visa? I see that one can travel to other Schengen countries for up to 90 days, but I can't find info about non Schengen.

Sorry if I missed this upthread, but do you have favorite resources that helped you figure out and complete the process?

Je voudrais un cidre de Bretagne maintenant...

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Pookie

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2022, 12:16:58 PM »
Such great information!!
Just returned from Barcelona- incredibly pet friendly. Dogs were everywhere and well behaved.

I have 4 dogs. One is a foster fail who happens to be a pit bull mix. Didn't do a ton of research but it looks like they aren't allowed in Europe. :(
I may start another post about fulfilling the travel bug when pets are part of the family!

Really appreciate your inspiration and information about your adventures in Paris!

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2022, 10:08:00 AM »
Thanks for sharing your experiences! We've been looking at the D7 visa for Portugal, but we also love France and I can speak French reasonably well. Plus, the cidre in Bretagne is outstanding!

I tried googling this, but didn't come up with anything, so maybe you can help. Is there a required amount of time you have to be in France on the long stay visa? I see that one can travel to other Schengen countries for up to 90 days, but I can't find info about non Schengen.

Sorry if I missed this upthread, but do you have favorite resources that helped you figure out and complete the process?

Je voudrais un cidre de Bretagne maintenant...

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You're welcome! I like the cider, too. It's readily available, even in Paris, and insanely cheap. 

You can apply for a long stay visa for up to one year, assuming you're going for a visitor's visa (i.e. not working).  The one-year visa is renewable, and I just renewed mine online without issue. If you think you may want to renew, make sure that you get a one-year visa, because visas for less than a year, even a little bit, are not renewable from within France.  A lot of newbies make the mistake of not applying for a one-year visa, because they are not sure, and then they decide that they do want to stay and can't.  But if you have a one-year visa and decide to leave, you can. 

If you have a one-year French visa, you are expected to make your home in one place in France.  I originally thought that I would move around every few months to see different parts of France, but really the system is just not set up for that.  They want to be able to send you a letter summoning you to do something administrative on their schedule, and if you are moving around you're going to miss it.  I figure once I've gotten citizenship that will give me a lot more freedom of movement if I want it.

Almost all of my research was on FB groups for expats.  They change frequently, but right now my favorite is called "Club Camembert."

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2022, 10:22:46 AM »
Such great information!!
Just returned from Barcelona- incredibly pet friendly. Dogs were everywhere and well behaved.

I have 4 dogs. One is a foster fail who happens to be a pit bull mix. Didn't do a ton of research but it looks like they aren't allowed in Europe. :(
I may start another post about fulfilling the travel bug when pets are part of the family!

Really appreciate your inspiration and information about your adventures in Paris!

Glad to help! Yeah, my understanding is that France banned dogs that are pitbulls or even just look like pitbulls in 1999 or 2000 after several incidents in which children were attacked. I'm not sure about other European countries. I'm no dog expert, but I suspect that the problem is more with how the dogs are trained than the dog breeds.

Poeirenta

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2022, 11:16:06 AM »
@spartana if you find yourself in the Algarve in February or March and want to meet up, let me know. I always enjoy meeting other MMM folks IRL.

@rachel talcott that's great info, thanks! It kills me how expensive good cider is in the US and Canada compared to France. If you can find cidre from KerMarZin or the one from Broceliande with the wizard on the label, those were two of our favorites. If you ever visit Quimper, Le Sistrot is an excellent bar/restaurant to try out lots of different cidre. We had a great time nerding out on the topic with the owners back in 2016. We called that our Tour des Roches et Pommes because if we weren't walking parts of the GR 34, we were going to cidreries or megaliths. Some days we managed to do all 3!

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Poeirenta

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2022, 12:20:55 PM »
This post inspired me to do more research, but I am having a surprisingly hard time finding an answer to what I thought was a pretty basic question.

If one gets the 12 month "visa equivalent to a residence permit" (VLS-TS), can one leave for a period of time to a non-Schengen country? Portugal is pretty clear that one can't be gone more than 8 months out of the first 24 of one's temporary residency, but I can't find any clear answer for France, except that staying more than 183 days makes one a tax resident. We're not ready to sell our place, so we'd like to be able to come back for 3-5 months of the year.

I suspect they want to see one in the country more than out if one wants to renew, but it seemes odd that there is no clear info. One site I found recommended that Brits post-Brexit just get the temporary long stay visa and reapply yearly, but that wouldn't make sense from the US, especially since I live a 3 hour flght away from the nearest VFS Global office.

Tannhauser

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2022, 03:23:26 AM »

I did a ton of research on this and ended up with Interactive Brokers.  They were the only company I could find that would let me move money fairly easily, as they are set up for both ETF on the US side and SEPA on the European side, and also allow for Forex trading to do the conversion. They do have a requirement that the money be in the account for a few months, so I set it up in advance in the US and then had to convert it to a European account, which was a bit of a pain, but now it all works smoothly. The cost for the Forex trade is a flat $2 for any amount up to $200K. I have retained my Schwab account and it's easy to move USD between Schwab and IB, and also to move EUR between IB and my French bank.


@rachael talcott, sorry for coming so late to this party... like you, I haven't read MMM much in the last few years! :-) But I was really curious to learn how you'd been using IB for forex. I've tried it a bunch of times, and could never figure out how to make it work. Did you find some instructions online or something? Would love to learn from your experience...

Merci beaucoup et salutations de Prague!

daverobev

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2022, 04:42:58 AM »

I did a ton of research on this and ended up with Interactive Brokers.  They were the only company I could find that would let me move money fairly easily, as they are set up for both ETF on the US side and SEPA on the European side, and also allow for Forex trading to do the conversion. They do have a requirement that the money be in the account for a few months, so I set it up in advance in the US and then had to convert it to a European account, which was a bit of a pain, but now it all works smoothly. The cost for the Forex trade is a flat $2 for any amount up to $200K. I have retained my Schwab account and it's easy to move USD between Schwab and IB, and also to move EUR between IB and my French bank.


@rachael talcott, sorry for coming so late to this party... like you, I haven't read MMM much in the last few years! :-) But I was really curious to learn how you'd been using IB for forex. I've tried it a bunch of times, and could never figure out how to make it work. Did you find some instructions online or something? Would love to learn from your experience...

Merci beaucoup et salutations de Prague!

Not OP but... you literally transfer money in, click 'convert currency', select the to and from currencies (and if you have an EU-based account you won't be able to exchange currency you don't have a positive balance for - ie you can't margin borrow directly, annoyingly). Then transfer the money out.

Of course you have to add the bank accounts first, and again depending on the country you would 'push' money into IB rather than 'pull' from the external account.

Again depending on which entity you're with you may have more limited options - I'm with Ireland, and can do USD, EUR, GBP. Can't do CAD, unfortunately (this may be a Canadian banking legal restriction... no problem with IB Canada, but as IB IE isn't a Canadian entity it just.. isn't possible, not even via wire, which *was* possible with IB UK...).

Tannhauser

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2022, 01:30:21 AM »
Yeah, you're right, the actual conversion part is pretty easy. But IB has never let me transfer the money out of my account. And their customer service is basically non-existent, at least in my experience.

I don't know if I set up my account wrong or what, but it just hasn't been possible to transfer in some USD from a US account then transfer out CZK to my Czech account.

Anyway, thanks for the reply, and sorry for hijacking this thread with my IB problems...

daverobev

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2022, 03:48:09 AM »
Yeah, you're right, the actual conversion part is pretty easy. But IB has never let me transfer the money out of my account. And their customer service is basically non-existent, at least in my experience.

I don't know if I set up my account wrong or what, but it just hasn't been possible to transfer in some USD from a US account then transfer out CZK to my Czech account.

Anyway, thanks for the reply, and sorry for hijacking this thread with my IB problems...

So your account shows a positive CZK balance, and it's been a few days so the exchange has settled?

You have added the Czech account in to IB - can you see it in the list of accounts when you go to 'withdraw'?

I guess PM me if you want to continue troubleshooting off-thread.

Edit - I've found their messaging to be responsive enough, if I have questions - go into the message centre and open a new ticket.

rpr

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2022, 05:23:56 AM »
PTF. This is fascinating.

rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2022, 06:34:56 AM »
This post inspired me to do more research, but I am having a surprisingly hard time finding an answer to what I thought was a pretty basic question.

If one gets the 12 month "visa equivalent to a residence permit" (VLS-TS), can one leave for a period of time to a non-Schengen country? Portugal is pretty clear that one can't be gone more than 8 months out of the first 24 of one's temporary residency, but I can't find any clear answer for France, except that staying more than 183 days makes one a tax resident. We're not ready to sell our place, so we'd like to be able to come back for 3-5 months of the year.

I suspect they want to see one in the country more than out if one wants to renew, but it seemes odd that there is no clear info. One site I found recommended that Brits post-Brexit just get the temporary long stay visa and reapply yearly, but that wouldn't make sense from the US, especially since I live a 3 hour flght away from the nearest VFS Global office.

There is a rule that if you want to get the 10-year residency card after 5 years of residence, you can't have been out of the country for more than 6 continuous months or 10 months total in the 5 years.  This 10-year card gives you the right to work in France, and also to stay for more than 3 months in other Schengen countries.

Official source (in French): https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F17359

But my understanding is that you can just keep renewing a one-year visitor's residency permit for as long as you can prove that you are financially stable, and that would allow you to spend more time away.  When I renewed, it was online and the paperwork they wanted to see was proof that I had a place to live (long-term lease), health insurance, and enough money to support myself for another year. I also had to show that I had done the immigration stuff (validating visa, medical visit) as required since this is my first renewal. As French bureaucracy goes it was pretty painless and 10 days later I received a PDF to use as a residency permit until my card is produced (which can take many months).

You do have to pick up your card in person, and they give you a specific date to show up and collect it, so if you are spending a lot of time away, that might create a problem.


rachael talcott

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Re: Sharing experience of moving from US to Paris
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2022, 06:47:48 AM »
Yeah, you're right, the actual conversion part is pretty easy. But IB has never let me transfer the money out of my account. And their customer service is basically non-existent, at least in my experience.

I don't know if I set up my account wrong or what, but it just hasn't been possible to transfer in some USD from a US account then transfer out CZK to my Czech account.

Anyway, thanks for the reply, and sorry for hijacking this thread with my IB problems...

IB requires that the money be in the account for a certain amount of time (several months, I think) in order for you to transfer it out to a country different from the one it came in from.  I set my account up well in advance (with USD) and so by the time I made the move, I was able to convert some dollars to euros, and set up a SEPA transfer to my new EU bank account.

It's also possible that IB isn't set up for whatever system is used to transfer CZK.  They do SEPA for euros and ACH for USD. I would think that you could do a wire transfer, but it might not be free.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!