The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: Omy on November 12, 2018, 11:15:05 AM
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I've read every MMM article and have lurked at this forum for over a year. I've been mustachian since I was a toddler (I preferred money to candy at age 3 according to my dad.)
DH and I have a mortgage-free rental property that brings in $1850/mo, a mortgage-free principle residence, and another $2.5M in stocks, bonds, CDs and cash. (Update: bought a 2nd rental in May 2019 that brings in $2250/month). We live on $50-60k a year in a HCOL area, but make over $300k. I'm 56, he's 51. I like my job (realtor), he is tired of his (engineering manager). His job pays more and has great benefits. I'm an independent contractor (no benefits.)
When I look at it objectively, I know we are FI. We've been FI for years. But pulling the trigger to RE causes me a lot of anxiety. Especially about health insurance premium costs and no clue where that mess is heading.
I came to you Post Fire experts to ask for advice on how to gain the confidence needed to pull the trigger. I know the math gives us next to zero chance of failure, but anxiety is winning over math.
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I recommend reading Dr Doom’s The Quit Series on his blog LivingaFI.com. He does an amazing job of unpacking his of reluctance to pull the trigger on RE once reaching FI.
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I can...fully relate. I don't have have the asset levels that you do, but I decided to extend my date from 6/30/2018 to March of 2019.
I've posted some on my site linked below, but it's also good to poke around the 2018 and 2019 retirement threads that are in the general discussion.
My motivations were more the obscene financial impact of working the additional nine months. It does take confidence to exit.
Would you keep your realtor's license and keep the residual flow of your clients buying/selling houses? I've seen "retired" folks find a junior real estate agent and let them do all the work while taking part of the commission.
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It seems to me that maybe you don’t want to pull the trigger, but your husband does. Are you comfortable enough with the math for you to stay working, and for him to retire?
Having only one retired does bring its own issues. The retired person can feel confined to their home location and not as free to do other things as they might like. The working person may feel resentful that the retired person doesn’t do all the housework (even though that may not be in the plan)...
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You don't have to retire. My husband is a professor and at this point he doesn't want to leave his job. Not because of the money but because he loves what he does. Before I left my job he asked me to consider leaving to something (rather than just leaving). I spent about two years figuring out what I wanted to do after I left. This was time well-spent because once I left I had a goal to fall into (after six months of recovery from excessive work).
What I don't hear you saying is what you want your life to be like. You say that you've preferred money over other things your entire life. Do you still? Is there something you prefer now? If not, why not stay at your job and continue to make money?
As to health insurance, that's pretty simple. Factor in an additional $12000 a year into your expenses.
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You might find forum member @CCCA's calculator (introductory post here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/rich-broke-or-dead-visualizing-probabilities-of-outcomes-in-early-retirement/) "fun" to play with to gain a little perspective. You're more likely to die next year than to ever run out money. Seems like that's a good reason to never do anything that isn't what you most want to be doing ever again.
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Tell you what, I'll trade lives with you and retire tomorrow. You can keep working as long as you want!!
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I recommend reading Dr Doom’s The Quit Series on his blog LivingaFI.com. He does an amazing job of unpacking his of reluctance to pull the trigger on RE once reaching FI.
Thank you...reading now...looks great so far.
Would you keep your realtor's license and keep the residual flow of your clients buying/selling houses? I've seen "retired" folks find a junior real estate agent and let them do all the work while taking part of the commission.
Probably. I've hit the sweet spot in my career where most of my business is from referrals, so it seems a shame to stop now. A good junior agent has approached me, and this makes sense as an exit strategy. The tricky part is that income will probably throw us out of the ACA subsidy range, so we'll need to do the math to see if it's worth it.
What I don't hear you saying is what you want your life to be like. You say that you've preferred money over other things your entire life. Do you still? Is there something you prefer now? If not, why not stay at your job and continue to make money?
I have always equated money with security. I would rather have money in the bank than things. That being said, relationships are more important to me than money. I was a programmer before I became a realtor and made more as a programmer than I do as a realtor, but I much prefer the people aspects of my current job. You are absolutely correct that I am floundering when I try to imagine what my life will look like in retirement.
It seems to me that maybe you don’t want to pull the trigger, but your husband does. Are you comfortable enough with the math for you to stay working, and for him to retire?
Having only one retired does bring its own issues. The retired person can feel confined to their home location and not as free to do other things as they might like. The working person may feel resentful that the retired person doesn’t do all the housework (even though that may not be in the plan)...
I'm a bit concerned about the resentment factor, but I could quit if that were the case. If I keep working, I will need to partner up with another realtor to free up time to spend traveling with DH since I currently work a lot of weekends and evenings. My gut says it will be more fun to retire together, but we need to do some homework to figure out what retirement will look like. I don't think it's healthy to spend all our time together - I don't want to ruin a perfectly good marriage.
You might find forum member @CCCA's calculator (introductory post here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/rich-broke-or-dead-visualizing-probabilities-of-outcomes-in-early-retirement/) "fun" to play with to gain a little perspective. You're more likely to die next year than to ever run out money. Seems like that's a good reason to never do anything that isn't what you most want to be doing ever again.
What an awesome calculator! When you look at it that way, it definitely puts things into perspective.
Tell you what, I'll trade lives with you and retire tomorrow. You can keep working as long as you want!!
Ha! I guess I should stop my whining!
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I'm glad you've already looked at the potential exit strategy and I think that's exactly what you should do. If you are self employed as a realtor (and put your spouse on as a "marketing consultant" to qualify as a two person group), you can probably get into an insurance pool that's better than the ACA. A couple of our local chambers of commerce and many business associations sponsor insurance pools for 2-50 person employees. The groups are usually healthier than the ACA group and you can get insurance for less. Having the ability to part-time a business you've put all this sweat equity into is a great thing!
You could also consider taking your commission in the form of a note receivable from the other agent, have them pay you out the referral fees over a number of years. You'd have to trust the other agent so that might be a deal breaker.
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I need to figure out what retirement will look like for me before I pull the trigger. As for DH, I'm suggesting he shoot for July 1, 2019 so we can start planning. It will never happen if we don't set a date. This way he can lock in his bonus and vest some more shares and 18 months of COBRA will put us at Jan 2021. Hopefully there will be some sort of reasonable health insurance options at that point.
Putting it out here (and on my calendar) will help to make it real.
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You are FI. RE is VOLUNTARY.
You want to keep working? Fuck what the community thinks. But keep working strategically after you have FU money. DH is supervisor and less than elated to be at work? Negotiate 8-12 weeks vacation. What they going to do for his asking, fire him?!? Take a job with a drone startup or in the New Space movement as a regular engineer, salary be damned. Make work fun again. And fuck anyone who stands in the way. You like being a realtor? Do it exactly the number of hours of a week you want to. And fuck management if they want more out of you. There will be an agency that takes you at the preferred level of commitment.
Work for fucking forever if need be. But do it on your own damn terms. MMM and its adherents don't get to tell you how to live your own fucking life. What winds your spring?!? Do THAT. You are free to do so!
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Well THAT reply made me smile...I feel like I got a bit of a face punch!
I know my job is easily scalable. I just need to learn how to put better boundaries on it. Partnering with another realtor is a common approach to deal with that challenge. I could choose to work another 30 years if mind and body stay fit enough.
My biggest concern about DH leaving his job has always been health care. While both of us are fairly healthy now, my family has history with million dollar illnesses and the butchering of the ACA has made me nervous about dumping perfectly good company-subsidized health insurance. A silver plan without subsidies is $1700/mo on the exchange (much less if we manage MAGI which is easy if I quit). Every year there seems to be a 20+% increase in premiums which is not sustainable.
I know I'm not supposed to worry about things I can't control, but that is my biggest emotional obstacle to RE.
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The rent can more or less pay for your premium. Then a $1M illness would take you down to $1.5M which would still be $60k/year to live on. That's also ignoring the fact you're not really that far away from social security and medicaid age (I'm assuming you're in the US).
But yeah, this is all about psychology not math. One big question mark are the reasons you do and don't want to quit. I guess you could probably even sit down and make two big columns and list all the reason in each
I WANT TO QUIT BECAUSE | I WANT TO KEEP WORKING BECAUSE
If you work nights and weekends, then him quitting would be good. Is there really much difference between lunch on Wednesday and supper on Friday for folks who don't have a 9-5?
How does he feel about all this? Is he hesitant, or is he completely ready to pull the trigger?
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He's been ready for years. My "what ifs" have delayed us. He's been accommodating and thought that "stockpiling" more reserves would alleviate my anxiety. At this point my contingency plans have contingency plans. It's time for him to quit.
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Speaking of health care, one of the really informed bloggers just posted this:
https://ournextlife.com/2018/11/14/health-care-2019/
I don't agree with her politics, but she was formerly a political consultant on healthcare and a patient with a chronic disorder.
Premiums have finally stabilized for the ACA and we should be okay for three years
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That's a really good article on the subject. I intuitively felt the same thing on Nov 6 (that gridlock might protect the ACA for 2 years), but I hadn't thought about it being 3 years - which gets me that much closer to Medicare age. Comforting to see an expert articulate it that way.
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He's been ready for years. My "what ifs" have delayed us. He's been accommodating and thought that "stockpiling" more reserves would alleviate my anxiety. At this point my contingency plans have contingency plans. It's time for him to quit.
I’m glad you’ve come to that realization. I desperately wanted to leave my job and it was my husband who wanted to stay with his. He persuaded me to leave, saying that he would follow me into retirement soon after. This hasn’t occurred because he truly loves what he does. I’d feared that he would resent me if I was no longer going to a job and he still had to, but that isn’t what happened. Instead we are both so much happier. I hadn’t realized how much stress my stressful job was putting on him. But of course he needed to deal with me with my emotions when I came home each night.
We are living in a time of full employment. If your husband leaves his job and it doesn’t work out for you, he can call this a trial run and find another job, perhaps a less stressful one.
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I retired going on 4 years ago along with my wife. I was the bread winner and she actually ended up working for me after we had our kids and just wanted to get out of the house. I was done. After two years of retirement during the last election we too were worried about the cost of Healthcare and with 4 kids wanted to to have something more than ACA. She came up with the idea to go back to work with the idea she will find something that totally is all about the benefits and works around her schedule. She loves it and actually works for a company that does benefits for companies. I had to adjust from being the controller of my own life, 50 employees etc.. and l took over al the cooking , chasing kids etc.. And we had about the same maybe a tad more but also 4 kids. Do your real estate just enough to cover the cost of Health Care since you enjoy it and let him retire. We were 50 and 46.
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This thread sounds like two intertwined but separate things, really. Should you quit, and should your husband quit?
It seems like your husband quitting is a foregone conclusion.
On the first one it sounds a bit more complicated. I guess it really is a question of whether you want to keep working out of fear of jumping out into the abyss or because that's what makes you happy independent of the money. That may or may not be something easy to answer.
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I have a little bit of this, too. The discomfort is with being in a draw-down situation with assets rather than building net worth, it goes against all of our training. Seems like you've set yourself a goal of RE so you want to, but now you're questioning it. The question you have to ask yourself is, will the benefits/dream of retiring early actually outweigh the anxiety about future health care? Is this about the $, or, in one more year will you say "one more year?" As someone pointed out, you don't have to retire! You can just ramp back and go after less new clients!
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You all have such great insights...this forum is a mustachian form of therapy!
I have officially given my blessing to DH to leave his job July 1 (his preferred date) barring any unforeseen, catastrophic circumstance. I know that last part makes it sound like I could pull a fast one and change my mind, but I think I've made peace with him leaving when he's ready. This thread has helped me realize that my anxiety about pulling the trigger shouldn't be strangling him.
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You all have such great insights...this forum is a mustachian form of therapy!
I have officially given my blessing to DH to leave his job July 1 (his preferred date) barring any unforeseen, catastrophic circumstance. I know that last part makes it sound like I could pull a fast one and change my mind, but I think I've made peace with him leaving when he's ready. This thread has helped me realize that my anxiety about pulling the trigger shouldn't be strangling him.
Great to hear it worked out.
I'm curious if you're willing to divulge what your plans for yourself are.
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Plan A is to work through 2019 and see how I feel at that time. I will partner with another agent (when DH retires) to free up time so I can ease into retirement. Plan B is to jump at the same time that DH does if there's a lull in my business. Plan B will allow me to make money off referrals for awhile.
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Plan A is to work through 2019 and see how I feel at that time. I will partner with another agent (when DH retires) to free up time so I can ease into retirement. Plan B is to jump at the same time that DH does if there's a lull in my business. Plan B will allow me to make money off referrals for awhile.
Sounds like a good plan!
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You all have such great insights...this forum is a mustachian form of therapy!
I have officially given my blessing to DH to leave his job July 1 (his preferred date) barring any unforeseen, catastrophic circumstance. I know that last part makes it sound like I could pull a fast one and change my mind, but I think I've made peace with him leaving when he's ready. This thread has helped me realize that my anxiety about pulling the trigger shouldn't be strangling him.
He has been ready for years. Why does he need your blessing? He has sentenced himself to 7 more months of prison while combined you have oversaved by at least a cool mil?
Recently I have had several friends suddenly die in their 30’s and 40’s, please push him be free now and cherish the short time on this earth together. There are less tomorrow’s than most can ever imagine.
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Probably a semantic issue here. I finally realized it was unfair that my fears were effectively controlling his end date (and told him this a couple of weeks ago). I let him know that I was ok with him leaving whenever he was ready. He came up with the July 1 date to get additional bonus/vesting. Since then, he's moved it up to June 1 (so at least we are moving in the right direction). You are right...life is too short.
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Probably a semantic issue here. I finally realized it was unfair that my fears were effectively controlling his end date (and told him this a couple of weeks ago). I let him know that I was ok with him leaving whenever he was ready. He came up with the July 1 date to get additional bonus/vesting. Since then, he's moved it up to June 1 (so at least we are moving in the right direction). You are right...life is too short.
Awesome!
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Posting to see how this works out. Six years post-FIRE here, DH loves his job and still works.
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Yes definitely leave it up to your husband about the leave date. We lost 3 friends between the ages of 59-67.
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Engineer friend of mine died last week, leaving a wife and baby behind. Not even 40 years old yet.
You and your husband have basically no chance of running out of money if you follow the basic MMM guidelines. At this point, it's just how much of your life do you want to force your husband to keep working?
I find the "Rich Broke Dead" visualizer to be useful. I put in a rough approximation of your numbers. The red area (none) is "broke" and the grey area is "dead".
http://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/?utm_source=mmm
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I love the Rich Broke Dead visualizer. I was directed to it recently and it was a good "smack in the head" showing me that we're fine and my concerns about future health care costs are irrelevant if we're dead. I'm completely on board with DH quitting when he's ready - and I will quit when I'm ready.
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You can always try it and then go back to work if you feel like it.
I was originally in the 2018 cohort, decided to pull the date up to 2017, took a year off (instead of FIRE) and now am working again just because I had a good opportunity i wanted to try... didn't need the money.
When I get bored of it I can always quit again!
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I strongly suggest reading the simplest, easiest book in the world “Who Moved My Cheese?” It has one of the most powerful questions I’ve ever seen posed: what would you do if you weren’t afraid? Your fear is ho,ding you back from enjoying a life with your husband that is worth more than money. You have enough. You have more than enough by every measure. Hell, your rental income alone covers almost half your expenses. You only get one life. That’s it! One. And no one on their death bed says, I wish I would have worked longer for that bonus.
Here is an exercise: imagine you have 15 million. Your health insurance is covered. Expenses covered. Now, you have nothing to be afraid of, what will you do with your life and your husband? Put your energy into that, not how to get more money, but what you’ll do when you have enough.
Then, after you answer that, gently slap yourself and repeat this in the mirror: Holy shit, I have enough!
Now live that life and don’t look back.
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I think MrThatsDifferent and others really nail it. I am just speculating but I don't know OMY has much to do with money in your case. Is it perhaps that you worry what you will do, sense of purpose you will have without the career? Maybe you just need to gradually ease into it, don't quit but just start reducing your work (easier said than done in such a competitive field) and perhaps your SO can just quit outright. Start spending more time/effort on exploring life, finding new hobbies, meeting new people. Good luck!
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I agree. I love the suggestion to re-read "Who Moved My Cheese?". I saw a headline today that indicated 55 year old retirees live until 80, but 65 year old retirees live until 67 (or something like that). Ouch. Better get my priorities straight quickly.
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Quick update - plus I wanted to save a link that was helpful from the "Stop Worrying about the 4% rule" thread:
https://www.kitces.com/blog/consumption-gap-in-retirement-why-most-retirees-will-never-spend-down-their-portfolio/
I re-read "Who Moved My Cheese?" and have been digesting a lot of other info on this forum and others. At the moment, I'm still feeling good about DH leaving in June (and even sooner if he decides). He is intent on waiting for his April work incentive, but might skip the June incentive. I'm happily busy at work so I will work through at least June unless something changes.
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I feel your pain OMY. Have struggled with that though FI by any reasonable calculation. Have not gown the nuts to just quit as my wife and I have yet to get on the same page as this. She loves to shop. It really does not matter as she makes an above average salary as do I in a LCOL area. We owe nothing on anything. My job has been pretty good since I quit in my head and my knucklehead boss chilled TF out. The elephant in the room is if my wife works 3 more years she gets dirt cheap HC and we will be she will be 55 and she has been detesting her boss but not her job lately. I am leaning toward doing the RE thing shortly and will work on her doing the same.
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So DH just received his bonus (largest to date - it was almost half his salary). He has a ton of stock options vesting in May (probably equivalent to 75-80% of his salary.) Then he plans to sail off into the figurative sunset.
I had been thinking that this extra plumping up of the stash would help me feel more secure about RE...and it really does. But there is also a part of me that thinks why on earth would we "sail" when we are both at a place in our careers where we are being handed money to do jobs we can just about do in our sleep? And while our stash is growing in leaps and bounds?
When is enough, enough?!
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So DH just received his bonus (largest to date - it was almost half his salary). He has a ton of stock options vesting in May (probably equivalent to 75-80% of his salary.) Then he plans to sail off into the figurative sunset.
I had been thinking that this extra plumping up of the stash would help me feel more secure about RE...and it really does. But there is also a part of me that thinks why on earth would we "sail" when we are both at a place in our careers where we are being handed money to do jobs we can just about do in our sleep? And while our stash is growing in leaps and bounds?
When is enough, enough?!
Why don't you both start working part time? Then you might have the best of 2 worlds, having more time for yourself and still not closing the hose completely.
Enough is yearly spending level (on average over the years) x 25. Or x less, if you can draw on a later pension.
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But there is also a part of me that thinks why on earth would we "sail" when we are both at a place in our careers where we are being handed money to do jobs we can just about do in our sleep? And while our stash is growing in leaps and bounds?
When is enough, enough?!
What is enough is the ultimate question. Until you know what you want your life to look like/what your goals are for the rest of your life, you will never have "enough". If leaving 5 Million dollars to the charity of your choice at your death is important to you, then you may not have enough. If you want to spend time with friends and family and volunteer or work part time, then you have enough. I don't think you're struggling with the money, I think you're struggling with how you want to spend your time.
I think about my "enough" a fair amount and it's helpful to think about the time you have left on this earth. If I spend the next 20 years chasing money, then I won't have enough time left to live the life I'm excited to live. I chose to leave my career at my peak earning time, because I value freedom, peace, relationships, etc. more than having more money. The great thing is that the choice is up to you, and the really difficult thing is that the choice is up to you :)
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I think about my "enough" a fair amount and it's helpful to think about the time you have left on this earth. If I spend the next 20 years chasing money, then I won't have enough time left to live the life I'm excited to live. I chose to leave my career at my peak earning time, because I value freedom, peace, relationships, etc. more than having more money. The great thing is that the choice is up to you, and the really difficult thing is that the choice is up to you :)
Exactly! And if leaving turns out to be the "wrong" choice, it's much harder to turn the hose back on after a few years at our age. In my 30s, I didn't think twice about leaving the workforce with a stash of $800k. When I divorced (divide by 2) and the stock market tanked, I had $300k and wasn't a bit concerned about jumping into a new career in my 40s. But in my mid 50s it seems daunting to imagine jumping back into the workforce in my 60s should things not work out. Freakin' golden handcuffs!
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So DH just received his bonus (largest to date - it was almost half his salary). He has a ton of stock options vesting in May (probably equivalent to 75-80% of his salary.) Then he plans to sail off into the figurative sunset.
I had been thinking that this extra plumping up of the stash would help me feel more secure about RE...and it really does. But there is also a part of me that thinks why on earth would we "sail" when we are both at a place in our careers where we are being handed money to do jobs we can just about do in our sleep? And while our stash is growing in leaps and bounds?
When is enough, enough?!
I'm glad things are going well.
If you had more money would you do with it?
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If you had one more year to LIVE what would you do with it?
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So DH just received his bonus (largest to date - it was almost half his salary). He has a ton of stock options vesting in May (probably equivalent to 75-80% of his salary.) Then he plans to sail off into the figurative sunset.
I had been thinking that this extra plumping up of the stash would help me feel more secure about RE...and it really does. But there is also a part of me that thinks why on earth would we "sail" when we are both at a place in our careers where we are being handed money to do jobs we can just about do in our sleep? And while our stash is growing in leaps and bounds?
When is enough, enough?!
Money is a tool that allows you to do something. Right now, you're using it as a tool to persuade you to not do what you want to do.
You've managed to get yourself into a place which youre just as trapped by money as someone with their credit cards maxed.
More money will not make this better, any more than a card with a higher limit will help the obsessive spender.
You're approach of getting more money will not work, since it won't fix the problem
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Great questions. More money just means more security and freedom at this point. I don't think our plans improve drastically with one more year of work and the amount that would add to the stash. And if we knew we only had a few years left, we already would have retired. So I guess that means we have enough.
DH said last night that getting all this money is depressing, and I asked why. He said logically it makes sense to work another year even though his heart's not in it. That also tells me it's time to quit.
I think you hit the nail on the head, NorthernMonkey.
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Great questions. More money just means more security and freedom at this point. I don't think our plans improve drastically with one more year of work and the amount that would add to the stash. And if we knew we only had a few years left, we already would have retired. So I guess that means we have enough.
DH said last night that getting all this money is depressing, and I asked why. He said logically it makes sense to work another year even though his heart's not in it. That also tells me it's time to quit.
I think you hit the nail on the head, NorthernMonkey.
You have a crazy amount of security and freedom. You could bump up your spending to $100k/year and still be among the more conservative people here in terms of SWR. If you want to take yacht trips around the Mediterranean or fund several orphanages in Africa then you can keep working a few more years. If you can't think of anything you might want or need that would put your spending over $100k/year, then every dollar you earn now is just an extra dollar you'll never have a chance to spend. Logically it doesn't make sense to hoard way more than you need once you've got more than enough.
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We both came to that conclusion today in different ways. I realized it after bouncing things off of you smart people. DH ran our numbers through his various spreadsheets and said there was a pretty good chance we'd have at least what we have now after 30 years of retirement. He said he had almost talked himself into working another year yesterday, but his spreadsheets brought him back to reality.
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PTF, since I can easily imagine myself in this situation in just a few years.
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Your also seem to be working on the assumption that if you retire tomorrow, you can never ever get another job if things change.
Why not agree to have a trial run retirement, with a review after 6 months. If your situation has changed, you can both agree to go back to work for 6 months (Pro tip, with 2.5m it won't have changed)
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Stop trading time for money. You WILL die one day. If you are in a situation where you've hit your number, trying to hang on for one more year for more money you don't really need is foolish. You WILL REGRET sacrificing a "good" year of life where you were healthy enough to really enjoy it (so you can travel etc.) once you are having health issues later on in life (IF you make it that far). Think about being in hospice and asking yourself if waiting another year was the right decision.
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Thanks. A bit ironic to get face punches for oversaving on this forum, but I will take it!
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Thanks. A bit ironic to get face punches for oversaving on this forum, but I will take it!
Why would it be ironic? This isn't Bogleheads.
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I will have to check out Bogleheads. Maybe that's the problem - I'm a Boglehead in the wrong forum!
But seriously - posting has been very helpful to me. When I look back to where I was in November when I started this post (anxious about quitting) to where I am now, I realize I have come a long way because of your constructive comments. I still have some loose ends to tie up (and likely a bit more anxiety to get past) but I hope to be FIREd by this June.
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Do it! It's about time :)
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Don't go to Bogleheads unless you want to be scared into saving another $2.5 mil before retiring!
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Ha...ok!
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Don't go to Bogleheads unless you want to be scared into saving another $2.5 mil before retiring!
My favorite BH threads are the ones that discuss MMM. The knives really come out!
That said, there are some good threads on that site. I think I am about a 50:50 combination of this forum and that forum.
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So I popped over to Bogleheads for the first time and wandered around the forum a bit (not as nicely organized as this one). I discovered a couple of articles that indicated you can use a SWR of MORE than 4% as a 65 year old couple since there's only a 1% chance that you will BOTH live another 30 years...and only a 16% chance that one of you will live another 30 years. Life expectancy actuarial data (as in the Rich, Broke, Dead calculator) can be strangely comforting.
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I also had a short look at Bogleheads and searched on articles containing MMM. The few posts I saw were about people saving 3-4 mil $ for retirement and 100K a year FIRE budget. The whole site itself seems to be more about investing in general.
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DH and I were talking about when he should tell his boss that he is retiring. He thinks he can safely tell him this month without risking $150k in options that vest in June, but I'm not so sure. Thoughts?
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Is he required to give more than two weeks notice?
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DH and I were talking about when he should tell his boss that he is retiring. He thinks he can safely tell him this month without risking $150k in options that vest in June, but I'm not so sure. Thoughts?
If he has 2 weeks notice, I would wait until the money is on his bank account and resign the day after. If he doesn't hold out, use some sickleave.
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DH and I were talking about when he should tell his boss that he is retiring. He thinks he can safely tell him this month without risking $150k in options that vest in June, but I'm not so sure. Thoughts?
If he has 2 weeks notice, I would wait until the money is on his bank account and resign the day after. If he doesn't hold out, use some sickleave.
+50. The shorter the notice the better.
I did 7 months notice, in a positive environment, and regretted it.
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Thanks for the responses. I agree completely, but he feels that he "owes" the people on his team more notice. Also, he is responsible for project planning that he is included in so he feels uncomfortable planning when he won't be there to implement. He does not have an obligation to give more than 2 weeks notice.
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He just needs to go into it with his eyes open - if he gives an extended notice, there's a good chance (I'd say better than 50/50) that they will push him out before $150K vests. Because it's a company, and companies are gonna act like companies.
That being said, it's clear from your previous posts that $150K isn't going to make or break your retirement and that you already have more than you need. So, what's the big deal if he loses the $150K? That's the beauty of FI -- once you're sure you have enough, additional money becomes meaningless. So, if he wants to stay on to grab that last $150K, go for it. If he feels like the right thing to do is give an extended notice and risk losing the $150K, go for it. You're FI -- additional money should not be a driving factor anymore.
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He just needs to go into it with his eyes open - if he gives an extended notice, there's a good chance (I'd say better than 50/50) that they will push him out before $150K vests. Because it's a company, and companies are gonna act like companies.
THIS!
Also, wanted to add a link to the topic mentioned earlier: Stop Worrying About the 4% Rule (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stop-worrying-about-the-4-rule/msg702774/#msg702774)
I accelerated FI by becoming a real estate investor (REI) - mostly SFH's providing a regular income source & tax deductions via depreciation. You already have 1 rental property...
Q: Have you considered purchasing other rental properties (even if you use property management to maintain them) and use the extra income to cover healthcare costs, and any other costs in FI? (i.e. travel, vacations, philanthropy, etc) The tax benefits alone made REI worthwhile in my case.
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So, let him write up his resignation letter. He can post it the minute that $150k hits your account.
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OK your numbers are identical to ours (almost).. Which are:
1) We make $1850/month in rent.
2) Have about $2.5M in saved assets.. Actually we have $2.1M but have roughly $0.5M in pensions we could take now.
3) We spent $50k last year.
We don't make any income and we're 57 and almost 54.
So we make roughly $20k in rental profits (after deducted expenses) and about $12k after tax Qdivs (zero% federal income tax).
So this puts our MAGI at $32k.
We then sell about $30k's worth of investments which yield about $10k in long term cap gains (also taxed at zero% federal).
So now our MAGI is at $42k..
We then put $8k into an HSA which brings our MAGI down to $34k.
So thats gives us $54k to spend but our MAGI is $34k.
With this MAGI we spend $8 per month on an ACA Bronze plan and pay zero% federal.. The State whacks us for about $2k.
Thats what our finances look like..:)
WR of just under 1.5%.. Its hard to see how we could ever run out of money.. Even if the big one on the left coast does flatten our house!
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Wow...very cool...just opposite coasts! Your numbers are very encouraging, ex flyboy.
Thanks for all the replies on waiting to give notice (or not) until after options vest. If there's even a 1% chance they could walk him out before vesting, it's probably not worth the risk. Even if we don't need it, it's a nice little security blanket.
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So I popped over to Bogleheads for the first time and wandered around the forum a bit (not as nicely organized as this one). I discovered a couple of articles that indicated you can use a SWR of MORE than 4% as a 65 year old couple since there's only a 1% chance that you will BOTH live another 30 years...and only a 16% chance that one of you will live another 30 years. Life expectancy actuarial data (as in the Rich, Broke, Dead calculator) can be strangely comforting.
Wow that is kind of eye opening. So many people wait to 65 or even longer to retire but chances are they might have many years left. My father passed away at the age of 60, many years before he would have retired. He had lived a frugal life and saved a nice retirement sum but never got to do all the travel or other retirement activities he had planned. He was a healthy guy (good diet, moderate exercise) but got a rare disease. My mom died a couple decades years later of another rare disease. We really don't know how long we have left. It is out of our control. Think about what that time is worth to you and your husband. It's been over a year since I left work and I'm so glad that I did. Even when the market fell 6 months after I quit, I still was happy I left. Even if I get diagnosed with some rare cancer now, at least I had that year where I wasn't a corporate servant and had control over how I spent my time.
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So I popped over to Bogleheads for the first time and wandered around the forum a bit (not as nicely organized as this one). I discovered a couple of articles that indicated you can use a SWR of MORE than 4% as a 65 year old couple since there's only a 1% chance that you will BOTH live another 30 years...and only a 16% chance that one of you will live another 30 years. Life expectancy actuarial data (as in the Rich, Broke, Dead calculator) can be strangely comforting.
Wow that is kind of eye opening. So many people wait to 65 or even longer to retire but chances are they might have many years left. My father passed away at the age of 60, many years before he would have retired. He had lived a frugal life and saved a nice retirement sum but never got to do all the travel or other retirement activities he had planned. He was a healthy guy (good diet, moderate exercise) but got a rare disease. My mom died a couple decades years later of another rare disease. We really don't know how long we have left. It is out of our control. Think about what that time is worth to you and your husband. It's been over a year since I left work and I'm so glad that I did. Even when the market fell 6 months after I quit, I still was happy I left. Even if I get diagnosed with some rare cancer now, at least I had that year where I wasn't a corporate servant and had control over how I spent my time.
This is how I feel too. My father died at 50 and has never enjoyed the freedom of not having to work. My MIL on the other hand, retired at 50. She just died at the age of 75 or so. So she had 25 years of freedom, the last ones were not positive because of dementia. But what a difference. I rather follow her path, apart from those last years. My mother als retired relatively early, because she had a governmental job that paid people to retire earlier. She seems to enjoy her freedom as well.
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If you give a lot of notice, you can become irrelevant. People don’t include you in decision making because you are leaving. You aren’t given work because you are leaving, so you get to do the nasty jobs.
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So I popped over to Bogleheads for the first time and wandered around the forum a bit (not as nicely organized as this one). I discovered a couple of articles that indicated you can use a SWR of MORE than 4% as a 65 year old couple since there's only a 1% chance that you will BOTH live another 30 years...and only a 16% chance that one of you will live another 30 years. Life expectancy actuarial data (as in the Rich, Broke, Dead calculator) can be strangely comforting.
Wow that is kind of eye opening. So many people wait to 65 or even longer to retire but chances are they might have many years left. My father passed away at the age of 60, many years before he would have retired. He had lived a frugal life and saved a nice retirement sum but never got to do all the travel or other retirement activities he had planned. He was a healthy guy (good diet, moderate exercise) but got a rare disease. My mom died a couple decades years later of another rare disease. We really don't know how long we have left. It is out of our control. Think about what that time is worth to you and your husband. It's been over a year since I left work and I'm so glad that I did. Even when the market fell 6 months after I quit, I still was happy I left. Even if I get diagnosed with some rare cancer now, at least I had that year where I wasn't a corporate servant and had control over how I spent my time.
There are a lot of things that start changing from the ER perspective by the time you hit 65 for a retirement age...
Your health, access to Social Security/medicaid, likelihood of inheritances, pensions, etc.
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Just lost another, sudden heart attack, was in great shape, mid 40’s, avid biker. Lot’s of money in the bank, so sad. :(
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Just lost another, sudden heart attack, was in great shape, mid 40’s, avid biker. Lot’s of money in the bank, so sad. :(
I'm sorry to hear that. Is there a reason you're losing so many friends in their 30s and 40s?
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Wait, you live on $50k/year, but have the means (between rental income and drawing on investments) to pull $120k+/year and you're worried about healthcare costs??? Shit, even if you gotta pay $20k/year, you'd have $50k more per year to spend than you're living on now (and that's before you ever take a dime in Social Security). What is the problem again?
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Agreed. When I first posted in November, I had a lot of irrational anxiety about retiring. Now I am counting the days. Current plan: Hubs will give notice in May (after options vest), and I will finish up a few transactions and put my license in referral status (by September).
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I'm locked in for OMY, but it's the 2MY that I had been contemplating. I even started a case study a few days ago. It seems most people think I should just do OMY, not 2MY.
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Agreed. When I first posted in November, I had a lot of irrational anxiety about retiring. Now I am counting the days. Current plan: Hubs will give notice in May (after options vest), and I will finish up a few transactions and put my license in referral status (by September).
Thats what I would do. $150k in options vesting is still a nice cherry on top.. Thats May 2019 right?
Like us you have plenty of money and under the ACA your HC costs will be tiny if you can follow the plan I laid out above.
More than likely your bigger problem will be to allow yourse;ves to spend money..:)
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Your post gave me a lot of confidence. How much can you put in an HSA? We are contemplating another rental (to help a family member and to give us more cash flow)...wondering just how much we can reduce MAGI by doing that.
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For us 57 and 54 we can put almost $8k into the HSA.. when we are both over 55 we can put $9k.. if you are both <55 you can put $7k.
Your rental income will be real income so your HSA contribution will ONLY be a dollar for dollar reduction.
But if you sell appreciated assets to make income then your MAGI increase is only the capital gain.. so for us roughly every $3 we sell generates $1 of MAGI.
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Thanks for the clarification. I'm a little concerned about the second rental throwing us out of subsidy range, but DH feels that it's wrong to take advantage of subsidies when you have plenty of assets. I see his point, but disagree. We have paid SO much in taxes over the years that I feel it's reasonable to take advantage of the options offered to us.
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Thanks for the clarification. I'm a little concerned about the second rental throwing us out of subsidy range, but DH feels that it's wrong to take advantage of subsidies when you have plenty of assets. I see his point, but disagree. We have paid SO much in taxes over the years that I feel it's reasonable to take advantage of the options offered to us.
Absolutely.. Put it another way. If the Gov is dumb enough to write a subsidy law based soley on income well.. guess what will happen? Its a very small percentage of claimants in any case.
Maybe having to pay over $1300/month might change his mind?..:)
Besides, Healthcare is so expensive mainly because the HC companies own the Government. If it was'nt as corrupt it would cost half what it does.
I don't have a lot of qualms about taking a subsidy.. And you're right, we paid a LOT of taxes over the years.
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Just lost another, sudden heart attack, was in great shape, mid 40’s, avid biker. Lot’s of money in the bank, so sad. :(
I'm sorry to hear that. Is there a reason you're losing so many friends in their 30s and 40s?
No real reason, cancer, genetics, freak accident, etc. I know a huge number of people and I guess I am fairly popular as I have friends all over the world in this age group. I suppose some you could call acquaintances instead of friends, but still sucks. Not looking forward to getting old enough where this accelerates.
Also, sorry to drag down your thread OMY, that was not my intent. :)
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Not at all, RCC. It's the most compelling reason to retire and start enjoying the fruits of our labor.
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Not at all, RCC. It's the most compelling reason to retire and start enjoying the fruits of our labor.
[singing Hosannas, Bach playing] It is nice to see a) The OP get it, b) The OP to put it so powerfully, succinctly and beautifully
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I will let you know if I still feel the same when DH gives notice...ha! But seriously, I do feel much more confident about retiring than I did 6 months ago. The good advice and face punches I've received on this forum have helped a lot.
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I will let you know if I still feel the same when DH gives notice...ha! But seriously, I do feel much more confident about retiring than I did 6 months ago. The good advice and face punches I've received on this forum have helped a lot.
Honestly this is the biggest transition you will ever make in your lives! I know a lot of people say they can just walk out without a care in the world, but I couldn't. My NW has grown by about 70% since I quit 5 years ago and I would say its only been quite recently that I have felt financially secure.
Numbers are one thing.. Feeling good about cutting off a firehose of cash that was mostly inflating a giant NW balloon is a different thing entirely..:)
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Honestly this is the biggest transition you will ever make in your lives! I know a lot of people say they can just walk out without a care in the world, but I couldn't. My NW has grown by about 70% since I quit 5 years ago and I would say its only been quite recently that I have felt financially secure.
Numbers are one thing.. Feeling good about cutting off a firehose of cash that was mostly inflating a giant NW balloon is a different thing entirely..:)
"Feeling good about cutting off a firehose of cash" that increases the NW balloon is definitely something I have been struggling with after hitting FI.
I was able to negotiate a part time arrangement last year that put me at three days a week for several months, and two days a week starting from this month. It feels difficult right now to give up that final bit, even though I know that I don't really "need" the money. On the other hand, I previously hit points where I just felt "done" at full time and at three days, so I imagine the same thing will happen with this schedule eventually.
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Yes...definitely the hardest part! Logically, I know we are ready. But when another year adds $500k+ to the stash it's hard to turn off the hose. But I have started to look at it as turning on a different hose of adventure and freedom.
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Yes...definitely the hardest part! Logically, I know we are ready. But when another year adds $500k+ to the stash it's hard to turn off the hose. But I have started to look at it as turning on a different hose of adventure and freedom.
Honestly if OMY added $500k to my stash I would have worked another 4 years,.. Golden handcuffs and all that..:)
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Yes...we've finally hit the sweet spot in our careers (especially DH who they throw money at). I am at the point where I get referrals from past clients and no longer have to prospect for my next buyers and sellers. It does seem a bit crazy to turn it down now.
On the other hand, DH is tired of the job/stress/commute. And we have "enough". As was pointed out earlier, not much is gained by hoarding even more when our contingency plans have contingency plans.
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That is exactly right..
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PTF...in my case a 3-More-Year syndrome as the golden handcuffs is about a mil we will leave behind on the table:(
BTW Ages of DH and i are the same as you Exflyboy :)
Problem is and always has been ...the kids , the kids....and the bloody legacy i wish to leave for them...just can't shake that off:((
But good on you OMY ..i will be checking in on you when the day comes :))
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On the other hand, DH is tired of the job/stress/commute. And we have "enough". As was pointed out earlier, not much is gained by hoarding even more when our contingency plans have contingency plans.
I have contingency plans, but my contingency plans don't yet have contingency plans. I guess the lesson is, my OMY syndrome (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/am-i-there-yet-one-more-year-year-year-year-year/) wouldn't be helped by more contingency planning.
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Do you have a contingency plan to avoid blowing another year working when you already have more than enough to retire?
;)
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Problem is and always has been ...the kids , the kids....and the bloody legacy i wish to leave for them...just can't shake that off:((
I'm willing to bet a fat wad of cash that the legacy your kids would prefer is time and experiences with you, not another zero in their bank account. Your kids hopefully have a lot of time left on this earth. The magic of compounding over time will create more than you can imagine. Give them the gift of your presence now.
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By "legacy" do people just mean money?
How is a single generation inheritance a "legacy"?
I mean, I get it if it's a business, or a charity endowment in the family's name, a historic property, or a political dynasty or something, but are we just calling inheritances "legacy" now?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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there's a saying that goes neither travel nor triathlons get better with age. My inlaws (68 and 69) saved a bunch of money and retired about 6 or 7 years ago. they just came to visit us in France and had a really hard time getting around. My wife and I noticed it, the kids noticed it. Lots of sitting, breaks, waking up late, easily fatigued etc. My father in law wasted prime years in his early 60s waiting on a severance buyout that never happened, vesting options that were a tiny fraction of his NW and all the while endured a torturous and much younger boss so he could continue collecting his paycheck despite already being FI. OYS is one more year of working, sure, but more importantly its one more year of not doing something else extremely meaningful, new, fun and adventurous.
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He's been ready for years. My "what ifs" have delayed us. He's been accommodating and thought that "stockpiling" more reserves would alleviate my anxiety. At this point my contingency plans have contingency plans. It's time for him to quit.
I have to say that you have summarized almost precisely what going on in my mind. I love the phrase "my contingency plans have contingency plans"
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Update: DH told boss today of his intention to retire soon. Boss was shocked, but supportive. And I didn't even have a panic attack.
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Update: DH told boss today of his intention to retire soon. Boss was shocked, but supportive. And I didn't even have a panic attack.
Hurray!, he is quitting soon.
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I'm very late to your thread @Omy, but wanted to chime in and offer support. Your recent developments (DH voicing his plans at work) are fantastic! Now go for it! Freedom is near for both of you. I FIREd in January from a cash firehose job, at the sweet spot of my career. Absolutely no regrets whatsoever. FIRE is even better than I imagined it would be.
Come on over to the 2019 FIRE Cohort thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/2019-fire-cohort/2450/ Lots of folks there have wrestled the OMY demon and have come out the other side. You can do it!
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Joining the 2019 cohort thread would def help make it real. He is open to retiring in June...or staying 6 months to a year if they give him a big severance package at the end. I asked if he preferred to just quit now, but it sounds like he would be equally happy to continue for a bit if there's a big enough carrot at the end. I then realized that I would be happy with the carrot....but slightly disappointed that we wouldn't be making the jump right away. That realization was a shocker to me. Maybe my OMY syndrome is just about cured.
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I then realized that I would be happy with the carrot....but slightly disappointed that we wouldn't be making the jump right away. That realization was a shocker to me. Maybe my OMY syndrome is just about cured.
You're gonna have to change your name!
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Joining the 2019 cohort thread would def help make it real. He is open to retiring in June...or staying 6 months to a year if they give him a big severance package at the end. I asked if he preferred to just quit now, but it sounds like he would be equally happy to continue for a bit if there's a big enough carrot at the end. I then realized that I would be happy with the carrot....but slightly disappointed that we wouldn't be making the jump right away. That realization was a shocker to me. Maybe my OMY syndrome is just about cured.
Oh my, don’t trade any more of your lives for money! You have already achieved fat-fire!! I have refrained from telling my latest story, but you can guess.
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I agree. If he decides to work another year, it doesn't mean I have to. And I'm so sorry if you've lost another young friend, RCC.
Perhaps I will change my name to "Nomy", MJ.
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One minus year.
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Minor update...I joined the 2019 cohort thread so I guess it's official. DH is leaving in July and I am wrapping up what will probably be my final transaction at the end of June. I feel lighter already.
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Minor update...I joined the 2019 cohort thread so I guess it's official. DH is leaving in July and I am wrapping up what will probably be my final transaction at the end of June. I feel lighter already.
Great..:)
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Following!
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Minor update...I joined the 2019 cohort thread so I guess it's official. DH is leaving in July and I am wrapping up what will probably be my final transaction at the end of June. I feel lighter already.
Thank goodness!!!
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Sounds like a major update to me!
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Minor update...I joined the 2019 cohort thread so I guess it's official. DH is leaving in July and I am wrapping up what will probably be my final transaction at the end of June. I feel lighter already.
Almost three months from giving the notice and two from leaving, I can say its pretty incredible
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So husband announces to me yesterday that his last day will be August 2. He hasn't told boss what his last day will be yet, so I ask why he is delaying. He says that way we get the extra free month of health insurance (which I had learned on this forum...thank you). I ask "How about July 2?" He says he doesn't want to deal with getting a new phone right before our planned vacation in early July (since his current phone is company owned).
I'm still planning to put my license in referral status at the end of June. I guess he has graduated from "one more year" syndrome to "one more month" syndrome. Sheesh.
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One more month is easier :)
Extended out my date by four days for another two weeks of health insurance
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So husband announces to me yesterday that his last day will be August 2. He hasn't told boss what his last day will be yet, so I ask why he is delaying. He says that way we get the extra free month of health insurance (which I had learned on this forum...thank you). I ask "How about July 2?" He says he doesn't want to deal with getting a new phone right before our planned vacation in early July (since his current phone is company owned).
I'm still planning to put my license in referral status at the end of June. I guess he has graduated from "one more year" syndrome to "one more month" syndrome. Sheesh.
my mind went right to mathematical limit analysis... One more year -> One more month -> one more week -> one more day -> one more hour -> one more minute... I guess the good part of this is that at some point it will line up with some BS meeting and he will just walk out :-)
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So husband announces to me yesterday that his last day will be August 2. He hasn't told boss what his last day will be yet, so I ask why he is delaying. He says that way we get the extra free month of health insurance (which I had learned on this forum...thank you).
Many work plans work that way, but not all -- as I found out when I retired. Our plan (a good one in other ways) was written so that it only ran until the Saturday following the employee's last day of work.
It just depends how it is set up.
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So husband announces to me yesterday that his last day will be August 2. He hasn't told boss what his last day will be yet, so I ask why he is delaying. He says that way we get the extra free month of health insurance (which I had learned on this forum...thank you). I ask "How about July 2?" He says he doesn't want to deal with getting a new phone right before our planned vacation in early July (since his current phone is company owned).
I'm still planning to put my license in referral status at the end of June. I guess he has graduated from "one more year" syndrome to "one more month" syndrome. Sheesh.
Sure, getting a new phone is a hassle ;)
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/24/unleash-your-inner-hasselhoff-for-greater-riches/
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I thought that was a weird excuse, too!
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So COBRA will cost $1300/month to continue our current plan for 18 months (with vision, dental and HSA). That sounds really reasonable given that the market place numbers are $1500-2400/mo for silver plans (no subsidy at our current income levels). Any reasons we shouldn't go down the COBRA route?
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If you like you plan and it is cheaper by all means keep it.
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So COBRA will cost $1300/month to continue our current plan for 18 months (with vision, dental and HSA). That sounds really reasonable given that the market place numbers are $1500-2400/mo for silver plans (no subsidy at our current income levels). Any reasons we shouldn't go down the COBRA route?
No. We went on COBRA for 2019. The price difference basically means your employer's pool of employees is a bit healthier than the ACA participants in your state. My employer was full of old stressed out people, so the cost difference wasn't much. We went with COBRA because we were already a good ways into our deductible.
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No. We went on COBRA for 2019. The price difference basically means your employer's pool of employees is a bit healthier than the ACA participants in your state.
That makes sense. We are assuming that by 2021 (assuming the ACA is still in tact), we might be able to figure out how to get our income under $65k to qualify for a bit of subsidy. If not, I've also considered getting a job long enough to qualify for insurance and ride that COBRA out for another 18 months. Does anybody do that?
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Engineer friend of mine died last week, leaving a wife and baby behind. Not even 40 years old yet.
You and your husband have basically no chance of running out of money if you follow the basic MMM guidelines. At this point, it's just how much of your life do you want to force your husband to keep working?
I find the "Rich Broke Dead" visualizer to be useful. I put in a rough approximation of your numbers. The red area (none) is "broke" and the grey area is "dead".
http://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/?utm_source=mmm
Wow this is amazing, thanks for sharing.
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That calculator was one of the catalysts for me to stop my "one more year" syndrome. Being able to see that death was going to get me before lack of money would was a real eye opener.
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Great thread and great info; thanks everyone
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Congrats @Omy on making progress on your decision. I have to say I really appreciate the discussion in this thread as I can see myself having the same struggle with OMY in the future. We are both very conservative with regards to the financial risk of retiring early. I'd be more likely to do OMY than roll the dice on not having more than enough.
The Rich, Broke or Dead visualization is very powerful to me. We actually just reviewed our numbers together and DW was nodding right along with projections regarding NW in a certain number of years. I plugged our numbers in to that chart without the Dead part and DW was still a little skeptical. Checking the box to visualize the possibility of death made an impact. Adding into our discussion the risk of running out of years instead of running out of money emphasized our shared viewpoint of when enough is enough.
Best wishes...
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Yes, it is a very powerful visual. I credit that (along with everybody here, of course) for getting me to realize that it is an almost certainty that I will die before I run out of money. That picture was worth a thousand words.
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Another update: My transaction that was supposed to wrap up in June has expanded into July (hopefully in the next couple of weeks). I have been strategic about not taking on any new business, but I need to see this one through. So my FIRE date has moved from end of June to end of July. DH target date is still August 2. I am goofing off quite a bit...amusement park with my niece last week and lots of time floating in the pool. Practicing for my upcoming life of leisure.
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Problem is and always has been ...the kids , the kids....and the bloody legacy i wish to leave for them...just can't shake that off:((
I'm willing to bet a fat wad of cash that the legacy your kids would prefer is time and experiences with you, not another zero in their bank account. Your kids hopefully have a lot of time left on this earth. The magic of compounding over time will create more than you can imagine. Give them the gift of your presence now.
I just had a conversation with my father (he 77) that was kinda heartbreaking along these lines. He was a great dad, he was a great husband, who made as much time for his family as he could (and much more than most I'd bet), and was a very hard working loyal employee (in the medical field, so his loyalty was to his patients as well).
Yet now, he's taking care of my mom, who's admittedly not quite all there anymore. Its very difficult, very very difficult (please support the caregivers in your family). And in our conversation he kept returning to he just can't believe "its over" (normal life with mom), and how he cant believe how fast it all went, and how he wished he had not spent so much time working as the good years passed.
And this is from a guy that did spend a lot of time with his wife and kids, who did a job that was a service to the community, and who didn't hate his work.
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Another update: My transaction that was supposed to wrap up in June has expanded into July (hopefully in the next couple of weeks). I have been strategic about not taking on any new business, but I need to see this one through. So my FIRE date has moved from end of June to end of July. DH target date is still August 2. I am goofing off quite a bit...amusement park with my niece last week and lots of time floating in the pool. Practicing for my upcoming life of leisure.
OMY, I'm in the same boat as you. My original date of May keeps getting pushed. I agreed to stay until a replacement is found and that's taken a bit longer than expected. I'm now looking at an August/Sept end date. I'm cool with this as they are paying me a huge transition bonus (variable based on time retained). All pressure is off so it's very bearable. I'm going to use the bonus to fund my retirement toys. Getting anxious though...really looking forward to starting my next chapter.
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I'm getting antsy because this transaction has taken on a life of its own and I can't abandon the seller at this point. I'm hoping for August now. Good luck on your transition, snowdog!
That is heartbreaking, Much Fishing To Do! For the last several years, I've worried that we wouldn't have enough money to last another 40 years. After a few health scares (and a few face punches), I realize I need to focus on having good quality of life - not just more money.
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I'm getting antsy because this transaction has taken on a life of its own and I can't abandon the seller at this point. I'm hoping for August now. Good luck on your transition, snowdog!
That is heartbreaking, Much Fishing To Do! For the last several years, I've worried that we wouldn't have enough money to last another 40 years. After a few health scares (and a few face punches), I realize I need to focus on having good quality of life - not just more money.
That sounds like the bell on the last day of school getting delayed.
Problem is and always has been ...the kids , the kids....and the bloody legacy i wish to leave for them...just can't shake that off:((
I'm willing to bet a fat wad of cash that the legacy your kids would prefer is time and experiences with you, not another zero in their bank account. Your kids hopefully have a lot of time left on this earth. The magic of compounding over time will create more than you can imagine. Give them the gift of your presence now.
I just had a conversation with my father (he 77) that was kinda heartbreaking along these lines. He was a great dad, he was a great husband, who made as much time for his family as he could (and much more than most I'd bet), and was a very hard working loyal employee (in the medical field, so his loyalty was to his patients as well).
Yet now, he's taking care of my mom, who's admittedly not quite all there anymore. Its very difficult, very very difficult (please support the caregivers in your family). And in our conversation he kept returning to he just can't believe "its over" (normal life with mom), and how he cant believe how fast it all went, and how he wished he had not spent so much time working as the good years passed.
And this is from a guy that did spend a lot of time with his wife and kids, who did a job that was a service to the community, and who didn't hate his work.
That sounds tough. A lot of us will probably be there some day. Trying to appreciate the time before then puts a totally different spin on YOLO.
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Stop trading time for money. You WILL die one day. If you are in a situation where you've hit your number, trying to hang on for one more year for more money you don't really need is foolish. You WILL REGRET sacrificing a "good" year of life where you were healthy enough to really enjoy it (so you can travel etc.) once you are having health issues later on in life (IF you make it that far). Think about being in hospice and asking yourself if waiting another year was the right decision.
I am TOTALLY in this situation right now.. hit the number, just barely as I FIRE'd (unplanned) and now have a potential job opportunity. Living in a HCOL area and not really planning to have FIRE'd i am waiting to see the offer but have been mulling it based on exactly what you wrote
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DH FIRE'd on Friday and the stock market is tanking...zero surprise there!
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DH FIRE'd on Friday and the stock market is tanking...zero surprise there!
Yes, but based on what you've told us it would take a nuclear winter before you needed to start cutting a few of the luxuries out of your budget.
EDIT: One other thing, the market is still ~5% higher than it was when you started the thread before accounting for dividends.
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I know - and the best news is that I am completely confident in the plan and not worried at all. The timing was just so freakin' predictable.
DH sold a bunch of his stock options last week and managed to do it at almost their all time high, so there's that...
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I know - and the best news is that I am completely confident in the plan and not worried at all. The timing was just so freakin' predictable.
DH sold a bunch of his stock options last week and managed to do it at almost their all time high, so there's that...
I know. You can expect a huge crash around 2023 when we retire.
It sounds like luck was actually on your husband's side.
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Agreed. It's hard to whine when things usually go you're way.
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I know - and the best news is that I am completely confident in the plan and not worried at all. The timing was just so freakin' predictable.
DH sold a bunch of his stock options last week and managed to do it at almost their all time high, so there's that...
Great thread. I am in a similar spot. We've been FI for several years, but that option vesting carrot is strong. I've really been OMY'ing it since 2016. I tried to quit last year and my last day would have been within a couple of days of the market peak last September, so by December I was kind of glad I hadn't. My boss's boss pushed me to stay, giving me a completely new role which is very low stress (I went from managing 65 software developers scattered across the globe - US, India, China, etc. to managing 0 and doing a bunch of low priority side projects.) I want to pull the trigger soon since options vested last month and financially we're fine. But at 51 I have similar concerns about healthcare for the next 14 years. One thing I've been thinking about is NFW am I working until 65 so I'll have to deal with the healthcare nightmare at some point. 18 months of COBRA gets us through the next election.
DW has been retired for a few years for a variety of reasons, so she's kind of waiting for me. But, last year it was easier to quit, I hated my job, I had a new boss who I didn't like, the hours were ridiculous since I was basically on call 24x7. Now I have none of that. My job is just boring, but damn they pay me a lot for the amount of work I'm doing. So I've been dithering a lot.
And as Much Fishing to Do points out there is the possibility of needing to focus on parental care. 3 of our parents are in their late 70s and while healthy now, I can certainly see a few years down the road where we'll need to take care of them and then suddenly we'll be old and need to be taken care of ourselves.
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...
And as Much Fishing to Do points out there is the possibility of needing to focus on parental care. 3 of our parents are in their late 70s and while healthy now, I can certainly see a few years down the road where we'll need to take care of them and then suddenly we'll be old and need to be taken care of ourselves.
That sort of sounds like a reason to quit now and go have some fun while they need less work and you are younger/healthier. I do get the "make hay while the sun is out" side as it maybe needed latter. But at the same time how much more of your time life are you willing to give up to take care of other adults?
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...
And as Much Fishing to Do points out there is the possibility of needing to focus on parental care. 3 of our parents are in their late 70s and while healthy now, I can certainly see a few years down the road where we'll need to take care of them and then suddenly we'll be old and need to be taken care of ourselves.
That sort of sounds like a reason to quit now and go have some fun while they need less work and you are younger/healthier. I do get the "make hay while the sun is out" side as it maybe needed latter. But at the same time how much more of your time life are you willing to give up to take care of other adults?
Yes, that's what I'm getting at, I think about that a bit when I start considering doing OMY. (The other aspect as has been pointed out is our own mortality. A while ago, I tallied up the number of friends, colleagues, and associates who are my age or younger who are no longer with us and it was a bit disconcerting. Cancer, car accidents, suicide, etc, etc).
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I know - and the best news is that I am completely confident in the plan and not worried at all. The timing was just so freakin' predictable.
DH sold a bunch of his stock options last week and managed to do it at almost their all time high, so there's that...
That's so awesome!
This "tanking" wasn't too bad. Loosing 15% of our net worth back in December was a little more exciting. You know the more times I go through this the less I'm worried. This week was more amusing than anything else.
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So it's official. My final transaction settled today!!
Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of my life. 🍾🎈🎉
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So it's official. My final transaction settled today!!
Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of my life. 🍾🎈🎉
This is awesome!! A huge congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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So it's official. My final transaction settled today!!
Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of my life. 🍾🎈🎉
!!!! keep us up to date!!!
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Success! Back to the starting line but it's a much more exciting journey. :-)
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
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Welcome to the club!
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Thank you! And not just for the well wishes, but for all of the encouragement along the way. If I hadn't started this thread 9 months ago, I am positive that DH and I would still be slogging along -drowning in money and complaining that we didn't have enough time.
An interesting thing happened in the middle of the night. I woke up briefly as I often do, figured out what day it was, and then went right back to sleep! I didn't spend the next hour or so worrying about everything I had to do...I just slept! It's lovely to think this might be my new normal.
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An interesting thing happened in the middle of the night. I woke up briefly as I often do, figured out what day it was, and then went right back to sleep! I didn't spend the next hour or so worrying about everything I had to do...I just slept! It's lovely to think this might be my new normal.
Congrats with your big step.
About waking up in the middle of the night: last night I woke up around 3 am, worrying about one thing. Eventually I got up to do get my mind off the thing, reading a bit about where we will be living in the future. That worked, my mind was off the first worry. I went back to bed and started thinking about the new thing for the remainder of the night.
Functioning on coke (cola) today.
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Thank you! And not just for the well wishes, but for all of the encouragement along the way. If I hadn't started this thread 9 months ago, I am positive that DH and I would still be slogging along -drowning in money and complaining that we didn't have enough time.
An interesting thing happened in the middle of the night. I woke up briefly as I often do, figured out what day it was, and then went right back to sleep! I didn't spend the next hour or so worrying about everything I had to do...I just slept! It's lovely to think this might be my new normal.
Great sleep is one of the best benefits of FIRE almost 7 years in. I can't say enough about napping when the heat index is over 100 here in Houston either!
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Napping is a wonderful thing! I woke up around 8:30 (at least an hour later than I used to sleep), ate a quick bite, took a long walk with DH, made lunch, worked on a couple of minor house projects, napped for an hour, showered and got ready to meet friends for half price burger night.
A relatively lazy day, but I feel relaxed - not a bit concerned that I didn't accomplish more. I could get used to this.
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Napping is a wonderful thing! I woke up around 8:30 (at least an hour later than I used to sleep), ate a quick bite, took a long walk with DH, made lunch, worked on a couple of minor house projects, napped for an hour, showered and got ready to meet friends for half price burger night.
A relatively lazy day, but I feel relaxed - not a bit concerned that I didn't accomplish more. I could get used to this.
We told you so :-)
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Checking in...things are going pretty well. I've happily referred a few potential clients to other realtors which should lead to some passive income. I didn't have any interest in taking these transactions on myself, so that's a good sign that FIRE might be starting to take hold.
I feel like I'm doing a good job of exercising more (daily walks/hikes of 2-5 miles) and eating better. Food costs have dropped from close to $1000/month to under $500/month by eating in a lot more. We could do better...but baby steps for now.
My biggest challenge is occasional anxiety about not accomplishing more. I'm hoping that is just part of the decompressing stage.
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Checking in...things are going pretty well. I've happily referred a few potential clients to other realtors which should lead to some passive income. I didn't have any interest in taking these transactions on myself, so that's a good sign that FIRE might be starting to take hold.
I feel like I'm doing a good job of exercising more (daily walks/hikes of 2-5 miles) and eating better. Food costs have dropped from close to $1000/month to under $500/month by eating in a lot more. We could do better...but baby steps for now.
My biggest challenge is occasional anxiety about not accomplishing more. I'm hoping that is just part of the decompressing stage.
That "anxiety about accomplishing more" didn't go away for me quickly. It was very slow over six months. Completely normal
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Good to know. I definitely need to learn how to structure my life now that I have so much more free time.
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Good to know. I definitely need to learn how to structure my life now that I have so much more free time.
For me it was the other way around....learning to live with less structure.
My poor wife, I was wound up and ready to be productive by 9:30. She had a few years ahead of me to learn "no, I don't have to do that yet".
Figuring out each others balance has been interesting. Took 3-4 months then it got better
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That makes a lot of sense. DH is so relaxed...no more alarm clock, commute, or 9-5 so he sleeps until 10. I used to work from home a lot so I still wake up naturally at 7...but without my usual 50 emails to deal with. Nice to know it just takes time to adjust.
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That makes a lot of sense. DH is so relaxed...no more alarm clock, commute, or 9-5 so he sleeps until 10. I used to work from home a lot so I still wake up naturally at 7...but without my usual 50 emails to deal with. Nice to know it just takes time to adjust.
I recognize that, getting up a very early hour on my days off, especially this time of the year when the sun shines unto the bedroom window.
Can you not give yourself some task to do in the morning, like writing yourself some morning pages or doing meditation/yoga?
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I was thinking that this morning. I could hop on the treadmill or play with acrylics or water colors to substitute for the "busy" work that used to occupy my mind.
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In my mind, RE (or retiring period) isn’t about being able to sleep all day and play solitaire. It’s about having the freedom and flexibility to do whatever you want. That could be taking care of your kids (a la MMM) or taking care of parents, or traveling the world, or learning and developing new skills, or volunteering for a cause, or serving in local government, or a plethora of other possibilities.
I don’t imagine much joy in just sitting around doing nothing. I see a lot of joy in using your freedom to accomplish something you really care about and/or will make a difference in the world.
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Agreed. I'm a bit paralyzed, I think. I had been spending 6-10 hours a day concerned about work (even on weekends since I was a realtor.) Now I cook, work on house projects, take daily hikes, and have a lot more time for family and friends.
Instead of enjoying my new found freedom, I worry that I should be accomplishing more. I also know that if I take on a new cause right now, I won't really decompress fully - I'll just throw myself into the new thing so I don't have to do the work on myself.
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Agreed. I'm a bit paralyzed, I think. I had been spending 6-10 hours a day concerned about work (even on weekends since I was a realtor.) Now I cook, work on house projects, take daily hikes, and have a lot more time for family and friends.
Instead of enjoying my new found freedom, I worry that I should be accomplishing more. I also know that if I take on a new cause right now, I won't really decompress fully - I'll just throw myself into the new thing so I don't have to do the work on myself.
It requires discipline *just* to commit to six months of not trying to accomplish anything. I can't begin to say how happy I am that I've done that. My drive along with the internal stress it was causing me has slowed and I'm more relaxed.
Disclaimer - I have a 3hr/week gig and that's been "enough". I'm sure your trailing real estate stuff is a few hours a week.
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Yes it is still occupying a bit of my time. I just had a listing appointment this week. My goal was to do a warm hand off to a colleague rather than just give the seller a name and a number. It went well and will likely translate to $7k in passive referral income in the next year. I also had to fix a "broken" icemaker at one of my rental units - and deal with repairs on an old hvac system in the other rental. So I'm not at the sitting around eating bon-bons stage of retirement just yet!
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Disregard post. Thank you
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A few more FIREd months under my belt, and I'm happy to report that it's going well...as you all told me it would. We just looked at our end of year numbers and were pleasantly surprised that our net worth was quite a bit higher than in August when we stopped working. Thanks again for all of the advice and support. I'm pretty sure I'd still be trading time for money if I hadn't started this post.
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Great to hear your update! Can't wait to join the class of 2020 myself :-)
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Love this thread!
I'm so happy for Omy and her DH. What a life!
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A few more FIREd months under my belt, and I'm happy to report that it's going well...as you all told me it would. We just looked at our end of year numbers and were pleasantly surprised that our net worth was quite a bit higher than in August when we stopped working. Thanks again for all of the advice and support. I'm pretty sure I'd still be trading time for money if I hadn't started this post.
Congrats again! I'm waiting for that April update...once you make it that far, I think you are in the clear from being tempted back into your old routine
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chasesfish quote from another post:
"After the first six months...this is beyond awesome. I wouldn't trade it for anything. The biggest realization is I was good at my job, I liked my job, and at times I was passionate about my job and enjoyed the journey at times. However, my job was not my life and it provided a means to an end. The further away I get from it the more I realized that the time I spent at work came at the expense of everything else. Friends, family, hobbies, travelling. The ability to *rarely* feel rushed at anything is incredible. I was rushed every day with work deadlines and a long list of "to-dos" at home and I'd be constantly doing triage to figure out what was most important."
This really resonated with me (even though I'm only 4.5 months into FIRE). I almost can't remember the me who was worried about how I would fill the void in my life left by not having "purpose". DH was instantly free and excited when he retired. I was a bit lost at first, but I think I've turned the corner.
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Thanks for the inspiration. I have several people in my life convincing me to keep working (I'm 60% time so full benies covered) but I'm getting sick of the things I'm working on.
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chasesfish quote from another post:
"After the first six months...this is beyond awesome. I wouldn't trade it for anything. The biggest realization is I was good at my job, I liked my job, and at times I was passionate about my job and enjoyed the journey at times. However, my job was not my life and it provided a means to an end. The further away I get from it the more I realized that the time I spent at work came at the expense of everything else. Friends, family, hobbies, travelling. The ability to *rarely* feel rushed at anything is incredible. I was rushed every day with work deadlines and a long list of "to-dos" at home and I'd be constantly doing triage to figure out what was most important."
This really resonated for me (even though I'm only 4.5 months into FIRE). I almost can't remember the me who was worried about how I would fill the void in my life left by not having "purpose". DH was instantly free and excited when he retired. I was a bit lost at first, but I think I've turned the corner.
I love it.
I'll still have the fleeting hour or two where I *think* about an enjoyable full time job....but I go fishing and the thought passes quickly. I live somewhere that "cold" meant 55 and it meant it was a bass fishing the retention ponds kind of day
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A few more FIREd months under my belt, and I'm happy to report that it's going well...as you all told me it would. We just looked at our end of year numbers and were pleasantly surprised that our net worth was quite a bit higher than in August when we stopped working. Thanks again for all of the advice and support. I'm pretty sure I'd still be trading time for money if I hadn't started this post.
Right On. I too have been retired since August and I love it. My net worth, thanks to the roaring economy and stock market, is also significantly higher. I love not having to get up early at o'dark thirty to go to work and the freedom to do whatever I want to. It's everything I hoped it would be. When I'm at the end of my life, I will look back upon this as one of the best decisions I've made.
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I was just looking for a “safe”ish place to vent and chose here. Please feel free to ignore me and move on now. This post is pretty pointless,
I am not sure if I have OMY syndrome but my inability to calmly move toward FIRE is an illness of some kind for sure.
Today’s drama.....
It has been on the radar for a month or so, but it came up again at work again today. I am in pole position to get a very big promotion.... and meanwhile I am going to FIRE this year.
I really want to FIRE, but have this nagging feeling that I should take the promotion to crown my career. 🤴 The promotion would take my career to a height I never imagined possible, nor aspired to achieve.
If I landed the job I’d feel good very about what I’d achieved and the extra money in the stash will be used for certain. DW thinks I should take on the challenge of the appointment. She thinks I’d relish with the pressure and challenges that I’ll face.....
On the other hand I want to FIRE and I’ve saved hard to get to the point where I can. I’ve been chipping away for years to get to this point. At 48 I am not so young, and want to make the absolute most of the next 20 years, and sitting in an office isn’t what I spend my nights dreaming about.
There are many pros and cons for either next step which I couldn’t be bothered writing here, but I really really hope I don’t get the job because I really fear that if offered I will accept the job offer and that will be another 5 years of life life consumed...... 😤
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This post isn't pointless, I've been there.
Just imagine how you'll feel after a few months in the new job when the problems need fixing and the novelty wears off. Your mindset is locked and loaded to get the hell out and having to deal with the responsibilities when you know you can just walk away will be terribly conflicting.
It would be a crowning achievement, I'm sure, but who is really going to care ? One thing is certain, once you walk away the company continues without you.
As you've said, you have to *want* to do this for the next 5 years. Anything less and you're selling yourself and the company short.
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Itchyfeet, that feels pretty familiar. I signed on to help with a work project as sort of a capstone to my career and now I feel like I'm on the hook, even though I'd be able to support myself if I walked out. That said, it sounds like you have been tired of what you were doing, and this offers a compensated out and a challenge that your spouse (who presumably knows you well) thinks you may enjoy.
Would it really take five years to accomplish what you wanted in the seat or are you just afraid you'll anesthetize yourself for that long? What is it you want to get done aside from holding a specific title?
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As you've said, you have to *want* to do this for the next 5 years. Anything less and you're selling yourself and the company short.
This really is the key point for me.
The Group CEO has been taking his time to decide who is the person he trusts with this assignment. The company has treated me well these past 15 years. I really don’t want to leave on a sour note.
I know my consideration would not be reciprocated by the company but we all have to act by our own standards.
If I take this role I will have to give it my best and it will have to be for a reasonable amount of time. Maybe not 5 years. But I just want to make the decision with the mindset that it’s a 5 year decision.
I feel privileged to be in this great situation where I have so many options re: how to craft my life from here on out.
I am a bit of a dreamer and have lots of ideas of things I might do post FIRE.
DW lives in the now. My constant prattling about doing this and that post FIRE is not something DW can engage with. She finds it annoying. She just keeps saying “I don’t want to talk about next year or the year after, we need to work out what we are doing this weekend”.
It’s difficult to get her excited about all the possibilities as it is just too intangible for her. If I am going to make major life changes I have to be the one driving those decisions. DW will always opt for minor corrections over throwing out the rule book.
There is no doubt that FIRE is a risk, and there are consequences that will make life pretty uncertain for a while (eg: we will need to move to a cheaper city/ town but have no clear favourite) but feels to me like a risk worth taking given all that we could do with the additional freedom. I believe we have enough money, to be able to not feel to deprived.
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On the other hand I want to FIRE and I’ve saved hard to get to the point where I can. I’ve been chipping away for years to get to this point. At 48 I am not so young, and want to make the absolute most of the next 20 years, and sitting in an office isn’t what I spend my nights dreaming about.
There are many pros and cons for either next step which I couldn’t be bothered writing here, but I really really hope I don’t get the job because I really fear that if offered I will accept the job offer and that will be another 5 years of life life consumed...... 😤
As someone in his fifties, I can firmly say that 48 is still young :-)
In any case, what you have is not a classical OMY situation but rather George Costanza's desire to "leave on a high note" (https://youtu.be/h1Y6oAjWgo4) (I was a huge Seinfeld fan :-))
I can relate to this quite well myself. If you look at my posting history you can see where my financial position is. From a purely financial viewpoint, I could have retired ages ago.
However, I quit a megacorp last year to join a startup precisely to "leave on a high note". If the startup succeeds, I can declare success and quit. If it fails, at least I had fun. Either way, its a much better exit than grindingly slow departure from megacorp.
My suggestion is to take this opportunity if you get it but tell yourself that you have the permission to leave at any time
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It sounds to me (correct me if I'm wrong), that DW is not onboard with FIRE yet. I say that since I was in her position just a few short years ago.
My DH kept wanting to quit, and my answer was always "What about health care?" He had the job with health benefits and it seemed crazy to stop when the fire hose of cash was coming in. So I kept delaying. We literally could have FIREd over 5 years ago.
I suggested that if he hated this job, try a less stressful one that came with benefits. He didn't want to work indefinitely at a low paying job so our compromise was to keep working until we padded the stash enough to cover worst case health care costs until Medicare age.
Then when we had double what we needed for FIRE and he was ready to quit, I started having major anxiety again (see beginning of this post.)
The amazing posters here talked me off the ledge and we FIREd last August. NO regrets.
My point to this long rambling post is that if DW isn't ready, you need to find out what is holding her back and address that. It may be fear that you don't have enough...or some other fear. One of my fears was not having a clear picture of what I would do with myself. By posting here (and having heart to heart conversations with DH), we figured it out. We may have wasted 5 years doing so, but that was our process.
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Thanks OMY. There is some truth in what you say.
I don’t believe DW believes we never need to work again. I get that. It’s pretty outlandish to think you can stop working 20 years early. DW is only 41.
But as DW has no interest in personal finance, my spreadsheets, the maths etc she just has to take my word for it, or stall. So she is stalling.
I doubt DW could even log on and make a share trade on our brokerage, despite my insistence that she needs to educate herself just in case the worst happens. I have shown her a couple of times. She didn’t take notes, 🤞
I would say that DW is not against the idea of us not working, she just can’t believe we could be wealthy enough to be in that position and has no means of making her own assessment. She is non-committal more than anti FIRE.
DW’s father is 64 and still working, with no imminent retirement date. I think DW will find it embarrassing telling her hard working, self employed father that his lazy, pen pushing son in law has retired before him. This might be a factor as well.
But, with a couple of days of calm to reflect, I am pretty convinced I should FIRE and not sign up for more years of corporate life. I’ve done corporate drone. I’ve done it ok too. Now it’s time for me to do something I want to do, rather than something I was fairly good at that paid pretty good.
CFIREsim is confident we will succeed.
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A friend has just died from an aggressive cancer. 3 months from diagnosis until the funeral. For all those here dithering/anguishing over more years building the stash, I would just say to you, if this was to be your last spring, what would you want to be doing?
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A friend has just died from an aggressive cancer. 3 months from diagnosis until the funeral. For all those here dithering/anguishing over more years building the stash, I would just say to you, if this was to be your last spring, what would you want to be doing?
THIS. Time is the only currency we have.
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My point to this long rambling post is that if DW isn't ready, you need to find out what is holding her back and address that. It may be fear that you don't have enough...or some other fear. One of my fears was not having a clear picture of what I would do with myself. By posting here (and having heart to heart conversations with DH), we figured it out. We may have wasted 5 years doing so, but that was our process.
Thanks OMY. There is some truth in what you say.
I don’t believe DW believes we never need to work again. I get that. It’s pretty outlandish to think you can stop working 20 years early. DW is only 41.
But as DW has no interest in personal finance, my spreadsheets, the maths etc she just has to take my word for it, or stall. So she is stalling.
I doubt DW could even log on and make a share trade on our brokerage, despite my insistence that she needs to educate herself just in case the worst happens. I have shown her a couple of times. She didn’t take notes, 🤞
I would say that DW is not against the idea of us not working, she just can’t believe we could be wealthy enough to be in that position and has no means of making her own assessment. She is non-committal more than anti FIRE.
DW’s father is 64 and still working, with no imminent retirement date. I think DW will find it embarrassing telling her hard working, self employed father that his lazy, pen pushing son in law has retired before him. This might be a factor as well.
But, with a couple of days of calm to reflect, I am pretty convinced I should FIRE and not sign up for more years of corporate life. I’ve done corporate drone. I’ve done it ok too. Now it’s time for me to do something I want to do, rather than something I was fairly good at that paid pretty good.
CFIREsim is confident we will succeed.
itchyfeet, I think your DW is very similar to my DH. No interest at all on numbers. I don't mind taking the lead though since I love spreadsheet like he loves coffee LOL. I'm just worried about him if I happen to leave this world first.
OMY, congrats again. I'm so happy for both of you. Thank you for sharing your journey and advice. Something is holding off my DH and I've tried to find it but haven't been successful yet. It's been a long journey but he's learning to open up more and communicate better nowadays. Right now, I'm working on my fear if I RE first and he still works.
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I had the opposite fear, @fireonmymind. I was concerned that DH would be having lots of fun if he retired without me, and I would be jealous of his free time and I'd become a nag with a honey-do-list. Which is why we jumped at roughly the same time.
What are your fears?
Nevermind... just saw your thread...I will go read it!
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I think it's really important for a couple to be on the same page when retiring - whether they retire at the same time or not. There have been people on this forum who have retired without their SO being on board, and some of them have found themselves divorced. It's not pleasant.
There are many reasons people may not want their spouse to retire. Some have been mentioned above. I worked with a bloke who felt that his SAH wife had nothing in common with him, and that he'd rather work each day than spend time with her. Many SAH spouses have a routine that could be shattered when their spouse retires, so there needs to be time spent figuring out how two people can spend every day in a house that one has occupied. People may be concerned about what they (or their SO) will find to do all day - won't they be bored, or become a couch potato or mess up their beautiful house?
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I just re-read my last post. I am surprised any body could interpret that gibberish. All those double negatives. Somehow, you guys do seem to have been able to make some sense of it, so thanks.
Deborah, I am sure my DW has fears of what life will be like with me not working 😬. It will be a big change for me to go from 60 hour work weeks + commuting to having all that free time.
None of this is easy, but my suspicion is that it is worthwhile.
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I had the opposite fear, @fireonmymind. I was concerned that DH would be having lots of fun if he retired without me, and I would be jealous of his free time and I'd become a nag with a honey-do-list. Which is why we jumped at roughly the same time. What are your fears?
Nevermind... just saw your thread...I will go read it!
Ahh i see. I, otoh, am afraid I'll be nagging DH to join me on endless road trips and he'll resent me for not doing all the house chores when we're home. And that is why I prefer we both retire at the same time.
As for him, I think he probably doesn't understand that we actually can downshift and be fine financially. He's great at many things but math is not one of them so I can understand how my spreadsheets can be too intimidating for him.
Now that you've both retired, do you spend more time together? Do you wish you would have retired at different time?
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We definitely spend more time together, but that is evolving as we each figure out what we want to do with our lives. 3-4 days a week one or the other of us is out of the house with their activity (volunteering, socializing, exercising). It's very important to both of us to have separate time. So far we have done all of our traveling together, but that won't always be the case because there will be times when we want to do different things. In the past 6 months we have taken 7 "long weekends" together (which no longer has to happen just on weekends!) and 2 longer trips. And the trips don't have set lengths any more...we can shorten or lengthen a vacation as we desire!
I'm very happy we chose to retire at the same time. My job was very unpredictable and it was very challenging for me to break away for vacation. We are making up for lost time.
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But, with a couple of days of calm to reflect, I am pretty convinced I should FIRE and not sign up for more years of corporate life. I’ve done corporate drone. I’ve done it ok too. Now it’s time for me to do something I want to do, rather than something I was fairly good at that paid pretty good.
Yay !
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Following with interest...
Sadly DH has told me he has been afflicted with the dreaded "3 year syndrome".....the worst thing was he did not realise he told me the same thing 3 years ago:(((
At the rate we are going, not only are we able to retire now ....heck! the kids can retire at the same time too ! (haha ! kidding!)
But seriously, lately i have had a slight twist of mind...instead of nagging DH to retire, perhaps i should be the one to change my lifestyle...he clearly loves what he does at work...who am i to tell him that his retirement should sync with mine...we are a married couple but we are still our own individuals at the end of the day!
Onwards and forwards!
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Following with interest too. My DH and I retired three years apart. Would I have liked to FIRE with him at the same time? Sure, but our plan was for me to work a bit longer to top up the accounts, and DH would be at home with the kids and renovating the house. Believe me it wasn't easy to get dressed and go to work every day with DH in his pajamas sipping his coffee on the deck. But we followed the plan and it worked out. I agree with @deborah that it's important that both parties be on the same general page about FIRE, even when you don't FIRE together.
I was mildly worried that after I FIREd DH and I would be together TOO much and annoy each other. But it didn't happen. It's been all good. IME, as marital challenges go, FIRE was a very mild one. Way easier than other life changes, like having kids for example. We enjoy our time together but we're not in lockstep. Sometimes we have adventures together and sometimes we go off solo with friends/other family. FIRE is even better than I thought it would be. It's freedom.
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I remember being asked in my 20s...what are you saving for? As if you must have a purchase in mind in order to save. I used to get odd looks when I'd say "I'm buying my freedom".
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So a lot has changed in the past month...
I thought I'd post an update (to document my thoughts as we are watching the spread of covid-19 around the world and in the US.)
My first thought is that I am surprising calm. Very little anxiety. If this had happened a year ago there is no way that we would have FIREd. I'm very happy that we DID retire in August last year. I would not want to be showing homes and worrying about my clients contracts during these crazy times. I'm glad that DH doesn't have to go into a germy office and restaurants for lunch. We can hunker down and self isolate and weather this storm. It will make a dent financially but that will probably work itself out in a year or three. And if the world ends, at least we weren't working until the verylast day.
Even though our financials have taken a big hit (no idea how big - we have decided not to look for awhile since there is nothing we will do differently), I feel like we are in better shape than the vast majority.
I'm so glad we don't have mortgages on our house or rentals. I'm a bit concerned that our rental income (which pays most of our bills) could dry up if my tenants stop getting paid, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it. Evictions have been halted in my state. It will be scary if my tenants decide to take advantage of this.
One big lesson for me is that there is no way to predict every possible contingency. I used to joke that my contingency plans had contingency plans. I never considered that something like a virus could expose how precarious our economy, health care system, and government are. I'm hopeful that with all of our planning and our frugal natures (and a little luck) we will come through this just fine.
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Good to hear you are feeling relaxed about it. So do I, as we FIREd at the start of this year.
I think mostly those who are going to FIRE are anxious, but if the market behaves like usual, it will go up eventually.
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Yes. A lot has changed in a month.
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With the certainty of repeating myself --- we told you so :-)
So a lot has changed in the past month...
I thought I'd post an update (to document my thoughts as we are watching the spread of covid-19 around the world and in the US.)
My first thought is that I am surprising calm. Very little anxiety. ........
............we will come through this just fine.
Napping is a wonderful thing! I woke up around 8:30 (at least an hour later than I used to sleep), ate a quick bite, took a long walk with DH, made lunch, worked on a couple of minor house projects, napped for an hour, showered and got ready to meet friends for half price burger night.
A relatively lazy day, but I feel relaxed - not a bit concerned that I didn't accomplish more. I could get used to this.
We told you so :-)
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Yes you did...thank goodness!
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Six months since my last check in. We've been mostly isolating for the past 6 months to keep ourselves out of covid-19's grasp. A bit boring since we aren't traveling or socializing as much as we expected. On the plus side, we haven't spent nearly as much as we budgeted and we've completed several home improvement projects. We have also focused on eating better and exercising a lot more.
Our portfolio mostly recovered - our last calculation indicated that we were a bit down from the high in December but that we had more than when we retired last August. So far both tenants have been paying on time and have jobs that are safe for now.
My biggest concern is what might happen to the ACA with the legendary RBG no longer here to save it. DH or I may get a job with health benefits if things get too wonky, but we're not rushing into that just yet. I'm strongly considering taking a complete break from social media and the daily chaos in the news to improve my mood.
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I was just looking for a “safe”ish place to vent and chose here. Please feel free to ignore me and move on now. This post is pretty pointless,
I am not sure if I have OMY syndrome but my inability to calmly move toward FIRE is an illness of some kind for sure.
Today’s drama.....
It has been on the radar for a month or so, but it came up again at work again today. I am in pole position to get a very big promotion.... and meanwhile I am going to FIRE this year.
I really want to FIRE, but have this nagging feeling that I should take the promotion to crown my career. 🤴 The promotion would take my career to a height I never imagined possible, nor aspired to achieve.
If I landed the job I’d feel good very about what I’d achieved and the extra money in the stash will be used for certain. DW thinks I should take on the challenge of the appointment. She thinks I’d relish with the pressure and challenges that I’ll face.....
On the other hand I want to FIRE and I’ve saved hard to get to the point where I can. I’ve been chipping away for years to get to this point. At 48 I am not so young, and want to make the absolute most of the next 20 years, and sitting in an office isn’t what I spend my nights dreaming about.
There are many pros and cons for either next step which I couldn’t be bothered writing here, but I really really hope I don’t get the job because I really fear that if offered I will accept the job offer and that will be another 5 years of life life consumed...... 😤
Wow - just read this thread and this was exactly my situation 2 years ago. Hope you chose well.
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I was just looking for a “safe”ish place to vent and chose here. Please feel free to ignore me and move on now. This post is pretty pointless,
I am not sure if I have OMY syndrome but my inability to calmly move toward FIRE is an illness of some kind for sure.
Today’s drama.....
It has been on the radar for a month or so, but it came up again at work again today. I am in pole position to get a very big promotion.... and meanwhile I am going to FIRE this year.
I really want to FIRE, but have this nagging feeling that I should take the promotion to crown my career. 🤴 The promotion would take my career to a height I never imagined possible, nor aspired to achieve.
If I landed the job I’d feel good very about what I’d achieved and the extra money in the stash will be used for certain. DW thinks I should take on the challenge of the appointment. She thinks I’d relish with the pressure and challenges that I’ll face.....
On the other hand I want to FIRE and I’ve saved hard to get to the point where I can. I’ve been chipping away for years to get to this point. At 48 I am not so young, and want to make the absolute most of the next 20 years, and sitting in an office isn’t what I spend my nights dreaming about.
There are many pros and cons for either next step which I couldn’t be bothered writing here, but I really really hope I don’t get the job because I really fear that if offered I will accept the job offer and that will be another 5 years of life life consumed...... 😤
Wow - just read this thread and this was exactly my situation 2 years ago. Hope you chose well.
An update would be great - it's been more than 6 months, so itchyfeet should be promoted and/or FIREd by now ;)
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I was just looking for a “safe”ish place to vent and chose here. Please feel free to ignore me and move on now. This post is pretty pointless,
I am not sure if I have OMY syndrome but my inability to calmly move toward FIRE is an illness of some kind for sure.
Today’s drama.....
It has been on the radar for a month or so, but it came up again at work again today. I am in pole position to get a very big promotion.... and meanwhile I am going to FIRE this year.
I really want to FIRE, but have this nagging feeling that I should take the promotion to crown my career. 🤴 The promotion would take my career to a height I never imagined possible, nor aspired to achieve.
If I landed the job I’d feel good very about what I’d achieved and the extra money in the stash will be used for certain. DW thinks I should take on the challenge of the appointment. She thinks I’d relish with the pressure and challenges that I’ll face.....
On the other hand I want to FIRE and I’ve saved hard to get to the point where I can. I’ve been chipping away for years to get to this point. At 48 I am not so young, and want to make the absolute most of the next 20 years, and sitting in an office isn’t what I spend my nights dreaming about.
There are many pros and cons for either next step which I couldn’t be bothered writing here, but I really really hope I don’t get the job because I really fear that if offered I will accept the job offer and that will be another 5 years of life life consumed...... 😤
Wow - just read this thread and this was exactly my situation 2 years ago. Hope you chose well.
An update would be great - it's been more than 6 months, so itchyfeet should be promoted and/or FIREd by now ;)
On the 2020 cohort thread, itchyfeet is listed as having accepted a new job, so perhaps they took the promotion?
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OP OMY are you still happy with the decision to fire in light of Covid? Like itchyfeet I have a promotion coming also, and am slogging out OMY, have to decide soon. I re read your thread OMY, I do remember this thread from back in the day. I hope I dont keep slogging away at my job out of fear.
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I seriously had excellent timing getting my big promotion a year ago. 20% raise, and fulltime WFH since March (old position would still be going in most of the time) - and the boost to (eventual) pension value will mean I can walk away in ~2 years, presuming the markets are at least flat.
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Wow just read this thread. Lots of good info here.
I'm struggling with this as well. My situation is that I'm in a contract until next October, but I'm bored as hell with the job. Before covid19 I had decided to give notice in January and be out by the end of Q1. But now it just seems silly to go through the drama of leaving early when we could easily be on lockdown again. So I'm leaning towards riding out the virus and adding to the stash in the meantime, but boy oh boy am I bored.
Congrats on breaking free Omy. Sounds like you made the right choice :)
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I am very happy we FIREd last year. If we had waited until this past March, I have no doubt we would still be working. With the lockdown and the stock market drop we would have slogged it out a bit longer. If we were still working at this point, we'd be telling ourselves we should wait until after we knew the outcome of the election. Then the excuse would be that we should wait until the SCOTUS decision on the ACA. My concerns would have just kept moving the goal post further away every year until we got sick or died.
We finally realized that we had enough money and that we were smart enough to figure out a Plan B if something catastrophic should happen.
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I am very happy we FIREd last year.
<snip >
We finally realized that we had enough money and that we were smart enough to figure out a Plan B if something catastrophic should happen.
This.
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Finally found this thread! A very interesting read. So glad you managed to avoid your OMY, OMY, and have been enjoying the fruits of your labours!
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Admittedly there were several OMYs before we finally quit (at least 5 "one more years" actually). The plus is that we doubled our net worth in that time which increased our confidence significantly. I regret that we only had about 6 months of goofing off before the pandemic shut us down. We are doing our best to keep our spirits up while significantly limiting our social activities and travel plans.
So far pandemic spending has been WAY less than our projections and we've made good progress in organizing and house maintenance. Looking forward to a post-covid world...but content that we are privileged enough to not have to expose ourselves on a daily basis.
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I am very happy we FIREd last year. If we had waited until this past March, I have no doubt we would still be working. With the lockdown and the stock market drop we would have slogged it out a bit longer. If we were still working at this point, we'd be telling ourselves we should wait until after we knew the outcome of the election. Then the excuse would be that we should wait until the SCOTUS decision on the ACA. My concerns would have just kept moving the goal post further away every year until we got sick or died.
We finally realized that we had enough money and that we were smart enough to figure out a Plan B if something catastrophic should happen.
Yeah, I think I finally realized at some point that the list of possible catastrophes out there more often end up with me dead rather than broke....so encourage an earlier FIRE, not a later one.
And I have never seen any reason to base the decision off of current health care/tax/political policies etc, in the US at least every 2 years could bring something totally different (or bring things back) and that is just not a significant period of time in my planned retirement.
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Yes...the Rich, Broke, Dead calculator was an eye opener for me. And DH has always said the same thing about US politics. The other conclusion we came to is that if it's so bad that we're hurting, we will still be in a lot better position than 95% of the population.
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Happy New Year!
Quick update. We just did our end of year net worth calculations and it was much better than expected. The stock market has been kind to us and our renters have been paying consistently (knock on wood that both continue). We did our first Roth conversion this year since we had so little income that it made sense to get some of our IRA money taxed at the 12% rate.
2021 will be our first year with ACA subsidies (assuming we can keep our MAGI under the cap). Our health insurance costs should be less than a third of what our COBRA costs were. If we have a windfall and MAGI goes over the cap, our costs will be similar to last year's COBRA...so still manageable.
I'm still bored from being in self-imposed covid jail. Looking forward to getting vaccinated as soon as my turn comes up. Until then I will attempt to be productive at house projects, financial optimization, and health and exercise goals...and lots of binge watching of old tv series.
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@Omy Thanks for this update - this thread was one of the main influences in hastening my retirement!
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I loved seeing the update OMY.
I end up having similar thoughts on the health insurance, we're married with no kids and either will fill up the 12% tax bracket and pay full price, or let our income be in the range of $65,000 and pickup a tax credit worth around $3,000 towards health insurance.
One neat thing we've figured out is with some self employment income, those premiums become an above the line tax deduction. We're picking up at least $1,000 in easy gig work to stay active (mainly shopping high dollar Costco orders for Instacart)
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One neat thing we've figured out is with some self employment income, those premiums become an above the line tax deduction. We're picking up at least $1,000 in easy gig work to stay active (mainly shopping high dollar Costco orders for Instacart)
Something to keep in mind, the deduction is limited to the amount of the self employment income less the SE tax deduction or the cost of health insurance (whichever is less), so you don't instantly get to deduct the whole cost of health insurance as soon as you have any self employment income.
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You can also consider contributing (a lot) to a Solo 401k if it looks like your self employed income is going to break through the ACA subsidy cap. It's crazy how much you can contribute to that to reduce MAGI. We are also planning to do some improvements to the rentals in 2021 to help keep us under the subsidy cap.
@Omy Thanks for this update - this thread was one of the main influences in hastening my retirement!
Starting this thread helped me SO much in my FIRE journey. I'm happy that it has helped others as well.
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Six months since my last check in. We've been mostly isolating for the past 6 months to keep ourselves out of covid-19's grasp. A bit boring since we aren't traveling or socializing as much as we expected. On the plus side, we haven't spent nearly as much as we budgeted and we've completed several home improvement projects. We have also focused on eating better and exercising a lot more.
Our portfolio mostly recovered - our last calculation indicated that we were a bit down from the high in December but that we had more than when we retired last August. So far both tenants have been paying on time and have jobs that are safe for now.
My biggest concern is what might happen to the ACA with the legendary RBG no longer here to save it. DH or I may get a job with health benefits if things get too wonky, but we're not rushing into that just yet. I'm strongly considering taking a complete break from social media and the daily chaos in the news to improve my mood.
Appreciate you sharing so much about your journey. Think ACA will be ok given the current political climate we are entering. Hope things open up soon so you can enjoy your freedom; not meeting up with friends and traveling is a tough one. Once things open up, that’s when we will most likely FIRE. Look forward to hearing how you’re adjusting a year later.
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Almost 2 months since my last update so I'm checking in. We have been FIREd for 18 months. A year ago we had just come home from a road trip to visit family before the world came to a stop. I had a lot of anxiety in March of 2020 about the stock market, whether our tenants would be able to keep their jobs and keep paying rent, and where I was going to find toilet paper and cheese since the shelves were bare for 2 months and our supply was dwindling. A lot has changed in a year. I woke up this morning feeling optimistic that life might return to normal fairly soon with covid cases falling. I can't wait to be eligible for the vaccine so we can feel confident about traveling and socializing again.
While I've been a bit whiny at times about our self-imposed covid jail, I realize how fortunate we are to live in a lovely home with more than enough space to spread out. We have taken lots of walks and worked on our exercise goals. I was forced to become a MUCH better cook because we never eat out - which has made us healthier and wealthier. Since the pandemic started, we've been donating monthly to a local food pantry because we have so much more than we need.
That's all for now. Thanks for all of your support - this forum has definitely fueled my optimism.
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That's a lovely update! So glad you can feel the optimism returning. I can too (though still fundamentally an anxious person). It's amazing what scientific awesomeness and some sunshine can do!
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Just received a lovely letter from the state health exchange. Our subsidy increased by $158 per month and our Gold plan will go down to $229/month for 2 of us. Thank you ACA and The American Rescue Plan!
Also, we received Moderna#1 in mid March (both had sore arms), and we will get Moderna#2 in less than 2 weeks. We are super excited to start traveling a bit and spending time with family and friends. This past year was not what we had expected from FIRE, but in some ways the isolation has made us appreciate being FIREd even more.
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So finally getting around to checking in.
I took the job!!
It’s been a busy year.
We repatriated to Australia in August and I started my new job.
Things have not gone as planned. I can’t say much here due to NDAs but my company is in the midst of being swallowed up by a bigger fish and having bits of it sliced off and fed to the sharks.
The merger with Big Fish Co is going to be a massive project that would keep me very busy for the next 3 years, but also gives me an out, and I have decided to opt out.
I have scratched the itch I had, and now I will be pulling the pin.
I have some golden handcuffs to keep me interested in not resigning before 1 Jan 2022, but on the first working day of 2022 I will hand in my resignation and step out of the shark infested waters and move on with my post fired life.
DW is still not convinced/ ready to FIRE so will keep working for a bit. She is happy to see me test retired life and then decide what’s best for her. She might cut back to 3 or 4 days a week.
I told my parents of my plans and mum said even as a teenager I would tell them I would retire by 50. So she wasn’t surprised to hear me confirm retirement at 50.
So no more angst. The future is clear.
I am glad I stepped into the role. I have no regrets. It’s been crazy times this past year with the M&A activity swirling around. The work has been challenging and at time stimulating and rewarding, but I can’t honestly say that I feel it is the absolute optimal way to spend the limited hours I have in my life, so I look forward to having more or less complete freedom of choice on what I do with my time from some time early next year... probably April.
Sorry to take so long to give an update.
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@itchyfeet
Gogogogogogogogo!
I've been through huge faceless corporation M&A and S&D before as an accountant. It is a big messy job. Few things clearly defined and lots of squishiness. It can be fun but the long hours and sudden and shifting deadlines can be a hassle. Grats on a golden handcuffs package. Have your eyes open as termination date approaches. The acquiring company usually wants to get rid of large numbers of the people it acquired, especially if they are G&A. You might be able to get a severance package!
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I tried to negotiate a severance already. Haha. No dice.
I have secured a nice retention bonus if I hang around till Jan, and they offered to increase my notice period to 6 months. That cuts both ways though. Whilst they would have to pay me out 6 months on top of statutory redundancy if punting me, it would also mean that if I want to leave I’ll have to suffer through 6 months after giving notice. I have no interest in that, and given I am almost certain they will have work for me for the next 3 years through the various separations and integration, the 6 months notice is of no interest to me.
Frankly, if they want me gone (which I don’t expect in the next 2 years at least ) I’ll take my retention payment, my unpaid bonuses, the 3 months in lieu of notice, a few months redundancy and I’ll be on my way with a fat wallet and a smile.
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Cheering you on from the sideline @itchyfeet! Go for it!
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Two months since my last update. The SCOTUS decision not to kill the ACA was nice to wake up to. We FIREd 22 months ago with the ACA's future still up in the air and took the leap of faith. I'm sure there will be other issues to deal with along the way, but I'm so glad we didn't keep working "to see what would happen regarding health care".
We've been fully vaccinated for awhile now. Moderna #2 made me pretty sick for 3 or 4 days, but it was well worth it. We are feeling bulletproof and are socializing regularly and making travel plans again.
I've had some unexpected income from referrals this year that has supplemented our rental income and investment income. We're half hoping one of our tenants moves soon so we can fix the place up and charge $300-$400 more a month for it. They are looking for a bigger place to rent, but the rental market is so insane. We might have to start increasing the rent to move them along, but it's tough when they've been good tenants and have managed to pay on time through the pandemic.
Overall...life is good.
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I was really glad to hear the SCOTUS decision, too, although from what I gather it was expected. Honestly, I don't think you would have had any problems even if it had been axed, though. I'm assuming you've ridden the big market rise with the rest of us? Your withdrawal rate must be super low by now.
It's so nice to be fully vaccinated. We splurged and went out for a nice dinner a couple weeks ago when we hit shot #2 + 2 weeks.
I'm surprised you were sick that long from the shot. I got fairly sick, too, but it was only a day and a half for me. I don't think I've heard of anybody else feeling the side-effects for that long.
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I started vomiting 24 hours after the shot. Then I had a hard time rehydrating/eating which made me very weak for the next couple of days...with a nasty headache until I was finally able to rehydrate. It wasn't pretty.
While the affordability of the ACA was not critical to our FIRE plan, the preexisting condition coverage is extremely important to us. I didn't want to be forced to pay for subpar coverage or to have to pay crazy premiums to stay covered...or to find that parts of our bodies wouldn't be covered at all. The peace of mind is priceless.
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Long update. Today marks my 2nd anniversary of FIRE.
It's a nice little milestone, and it has gone remarkably well considering that 1.5 years of it have been during a pandemic.
Our net worth has increased over 30% in the past 2 years due to real estate and market gains...so feel free to pile on with a bunch of "I told you so's". My worries about the ACA have (so far) turned out to be a complete waste of energy. We had budgeted $25k+ per year for health insurance and 2021 and 2022 are likely to be under $4k per year.
The pandemic has kept our spending at all time lows. We learned to cook, to shop with recipes in mind, and reduced our restaurant spending significantly. We spent next to nothing in gas or travel. We spent more on home improvement categories but have done a lot of it ourselves since we have time (and didn't really want to invite strangers in to our covid-free zone).
Recently we've started spending significantly more on updating one of our rentals to bring it into the 21st century. Our tenants asked to extend because they couldn't find a new place, so we decided to just go ahead and replace the HVAC, windows, doors and outside trim while they are still living there. We are forbidden by the state to raise the rent on them yet, but we will bump it a little when allowed.
We've also given a lot more to charity and will continue to increase spending in this category. It seemed ridiculous that we qualified for stimulus money so we decided to earmark that money for food banks and other charities.
We've let our guard down significantly after being fully vaccinated, but we've still stayed fairly close to home because covid is raging in most of the areas we would have traveled to. We will probably continue this approach through fall and winter and re-evaluate in the spring. I'd love to start traveling again when cases get under control - and we will get boosters as recommended.
We are content but would love a little more excitement in our lives. I'd like to get back to a more "normal" retirement with no concerns about the virus. The math tells me we'd probably be fine if we caught a breakthrough case (and it may actually benefit our immunity), but an abundance of caution is limiting us to "safe" local activities like gardening, hiking, kayaking, and doing home projects. The goal is to stay busy until we feel confident enough to travel and socialize more freely.
All things considered, we are doing well ... but it's not quite the retirement we imagined.
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Good to hear you are doing so well. And that you have enough activities you can do without socializing.
I think COVID is there to stay, as long as a good portion of the world is not vaccinated yet. Including many voluntary non-vaxxers in first world countries. Maybe that last group of people will change their minds in time...
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It's great to hear things are going well, pandemic aside. I really can't believe it's been that long.
I feel like I owe you an apology. I'm trying to figure out when we should FIRE, and it's freaking me out a little. It's tough when you're on the other side of the fence.
I think COVID is there to stay, as long as a good portion of the world is not vaccinated yet. Including many voluntary non-vaxxers in first world countries. Maybe that last group of people will change their minds in time...
The virus is definitely here to stay, but I'm hoping in a year or two it's just a low smolder instead of a forest fire.
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You certainly don't need to apologize to me...I haven't taken offense to anything you've said. I have pretty thick skin when it comes to internet strangers.
If you haven't already done so, I strongly recommend reaching out to the community to talk about what's holding you back. The water is fine...jump in!
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If you haven't already done so, I strongly recommend reaching out to the community to talk about what's holding you back. The water is fine...jump in!
I did, but I think I may have gone off the deep end a little.
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I now understand why you thought you owed me an apology. 😉
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What a story and well done OMY. Is it ok to post my own OMY here for advice? Don't want to hijack you're thread, but some comparisons here and I like the no bullsh*t approach the others have given. If not ok, I'll post to it's own
Congratulations. Insanely jealous here
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Hijack away!
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I now understand why you thought you owed me an apology. 😉
I'm sorry for being harsh couple years ago. It really is completely different when you're on the other side of the table. I'm a nervous wreck.
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I interpret your approach as "direct" not "harsh" - and I very much appreciate direct, constructive comments.
My approach is also very direct, so I am happy to reciprocate now that you are ready to be nudged into action.
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Thanks OMY. Well here I go!
Last year I completed the sale of my business. Before the deal, I was already financially independent but this comfortably put our withdrawal rate at 2.5% on a very middle class lifestyle. We've been living off my wage for the past 9 months, which is close to the 2.5% as a pre-fire trial. I'd say I'm in as comfortable a position as I could be. My wife has been a stay at home mom for 5 years and she's likely to never work again unless she chooses to herself. This is of course fine and as a partnership we work incredibly well together. We have a son who is 6 years old.
My question comes around the business. As part of my earn out there are some sizeable golden-handcuffs that vest over a 3 year horizon (1/3 annually). I'm months in to year 1 and while the parent company is hands-off, I'm losing my mind being in the office daily. It's not mine anymore and while I'm doing a perfectly acceptable job, I would rather move into the next phase of my life.
The golden handcuffs come with a caveat. My sister, who was my business partner is directly tied into the same deal I am. If I leave, the golden handcuffs for both of us stop. She is not in the same financial position as me and the handcuffs would give her financial security. She did receive the same payout as me on the business sale, so I would say she's comfortable but not FI. While she was equal partner, I was founder and brought her into the business later on. There's no questioning we would not be in the same position if not for the partnership, but as there are activities I engage in that she has little knowledge of, it would be hard for her to run the company in my absence alone. I know she wouldn't be keen to do so either. I have explained my position to her and she has asked me to stick it out, and we'll both leave next year (this would weaken my position to leave then over now).
If I leave my sister could of course renegotiate her deal, but I'll be honest, she'd struggle to run the business alone. And I dont think wants to
Options I've been considering
I want to be fair to the new owners and give them my intent to leave, not notice as that puts a time on it. (Happy for many face punches on this) This way I can give them a timeframe to put my replacement in without being a mad panic. I could suggest a 3 day work week in the interim, but this could be a red flag to our team and cause some of the senior managers to leave. Making it harder for me to do so.
An alternative is to give my 3 months notice after year 1 (Nov) and maybe do contract work for the company beyond that to support them.
I have a loyalty to the business. I started it and want to see it succeed. But ultimately I'm only an employee now.
Please give me a reality check. I'm driving myself mad trying to figure out what to do. Appreciate any and all feedback.
Other info for substance/background
I have few plans post-fire. I may start the cliched personal finance blog to teach personal financial literacy to entrepreneurs. I may play xbox for 6 months. I may deep-dive into music or languages. I will concentrate on getting fitter after neglecting myself for years.
I plan to decompress and spend time with my wife and son. I can think of nothing better than bringing my son to school. Something I get to do only a couple of times a year. Why because I am a work-aholic. I need to be at my desk by 8am. I was in this mindset for 15 years. Be the hardest worker, work all hours, be the best. If I arrive at 9, what does that say for my work-ethic to my team. I appreciate how ludicrous this sounds as I type it.
My parents are ageing, they play golf. Maybe I'll do that with them. I will have no issue filling my day meaningfully.
Sorry a bit of a rant at the end there. Help and Thank You!
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This would be a tough one for me because I'm very close to my siblings, and I'd have serious heartburn about doing something that would impact them negatively. If it didn't involve a sibling, I'd say leave whenever you want as long as you aren't contractually obligated to stay. I also think it's nice of you to give the new owners enough time to find somebody who you could train to take over...but not necessary unless you are contractually obligated.
Is your sister really okay with you giving notice at the one year point? If so that's probably what I would do.
Is there any way you could restructure things (coming in later, leaving earlier, working from home) so you could have more time with your son?
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Would your sister take the opportunity to save a lot before you left, or would she be in the same basic position she is in now? Why stress yourself and sacrifice your time with your wife/kid to help her go from 35% FI to 38% FI over the next two years?
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I'm 9 months in to year 1 and while the parent company is hands-off, I'm losing my mind being in the office daily. It's not mine anymore and while I'm doing a perfectly acceptable job, I would rather move into the next phase of my life. I do not have confidence in the parent company management either.
How bad is it bothering you? If you're just a little bored I would say stay and help out your sister. If it's affecting your mood, your health, or your relationship with your family, I'd say talk with your sister and let her know you need an exit plan. In between those two extremes, it's not an easy a call really.
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Thank you all for the very kind words. Was hoping there was something obvious that I was missing. As tough as the chat was to have, I had this with my sister. She understands and has made a request, which I'm happy to honour for her. Not going into the details here, but lets call it a compromise.
Have a great day everyone and omy I am so insanely jealous of you :)
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Good luck and let us know when you escape!
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Not FI but have been in somewhat similar situations business wise. I'd have some discussions with the parent company about disassociating your handcuffs from your siblings. You may be able to offer a change in split of the handcuffs (parent company currently sees 1 handcuff with a 50-50 split).
This could be something similar to another round of funding where your shares are diluted but the previous round maintains the same %.
In my business dealings I've always gone by the mantra of "You don't get what you don't ask for" Try to see how you can transition to part time/work from home etc and what the parent company wants. Who knows they may prefer to have you and your sister out after 1 one year now that they have a handle on the acquisition.
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Three months since the last update, so I thought I'd add a quick one.
We've had unseasonably warm fall weather and did a pretty good job of whipping the yard into shape and taking care of maintenance on the rental. We're getting ready to verify income for the marketplace and will probably stay with our current plan. Premiums will go up over 50% but are still super reasonable given our ages...and much less than Medicare will be when we're eligible for that in a few years.
We're planning on getting boosters in early December so we can spend limited time with extended family during the holidays. I also see a winter vacation to somewhere warm after we have the confidence that comes from boosting.
In the meantime, we will continue purging stuff to simplify and minimize. I'm also trying to adopt the policy of cleaning for 15 minutes a day to avoid a cleaning marathon when it gets to the point that it really needs it. Biggest challenge is that I havent figured out how to keep these sessions under an hour. ..when I start cleaning I lose track of time and notice things that I ignored successfully before I started this daily cleaning game.
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Hmmm, maybe consider getting the booster sooner than Dec, so it has longer to kick in before the holidays? I'm not a medical professional, so please don't mistake this for medical advice, just a "Why wait?"
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Very good point. I got sick for 3 days from Moderna #2 and have a lot of obligations in the next 10 days that require my attention. I needed to schedule the booster when I had at least 48 hours of down time in case I end up curled in the fetal position again. Hopefully, the half dose booster will be a bit gentler on my system.
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Very good point. I got sick for 3 days from Moderna #2 and have a lot of obligations in the next 10 days that require my attention. I needed to schedule the booster when I had at least 48 hours of down time in case I end up curled in the fetal position again. Hopefully, the half dose booster will be a bit gentler on my system.
How about Black Friday? The consumer frenzy seems likely to leave the pharmacy under-utilized.
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Made booster appointments for DH and I on Black Friday. That gives me 2+ days to recover before my next obligations. The pharmacy had lots of open slots as TomTx predicted.
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I don't love cleaning so the deal I make with myself is to set a timer. When the timer goes off, i quit. Juvenile, but it works.
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I thought about setting a timer, but I've been on such a roll that I just go with it. Maybe when I get to a steady state. I spent 3.5 hours today moving furniture around to make our office and guest rooms more functional. Each item moved needed dusting, vacuuming, and purging which ends up taking twice as long as I hoped. I have so much paper that needs to be organized/purged/shredded. It's been mostly hiding in boxes in the basement but I'm determined to get through it this winter.
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Boosted on Friday...just in time for Omicron. I felt "off" all weekend, but it was pretty manageable compared to Moderna#2.
Hopefully the booster is effective against the new variant. I'm wondering if this pandemic is ever going to end.
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Just did our end of 2021 numbers. We are up 18% over 2020 end of year. Pretty amazing that we made more money goofing off than we did most years that we worked.
We're still covid-free, but 3 extended family members got it in December. Fortunately they were all vaxxed and seem to be recovering well after a few days of fever, sore throats, and vertigo/vomiting in one case.
I lost a bit of momentum on my paper purging project. I was doing well for 3 weeks until I took a week off to complete zoom classes to keep my license active (I receive fairly passive referral income if I keep my license active). And then I blew off organizing during the week around the holidays.
My goal is to get my paper under control by the end of January...that should be attainable.
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Just did our end of 2021 numbers. We are up 18% over 2020 end of year. Pretty amazing that we made more money goofing off than we did most years that we worked.
It's incredible, isn't it? Of course we've been lucky to not have retired right at a market top, but you (and probably me too) would be solid if you/we had.
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Yes...incredible. Not retiring at the top of the market (and spending a lot less due to covid) has left me stress free regarding money.
Household spending was $41k last year (which was less than expected when I started this thread due to ACA and covid decreasing our projected expenses). We have two rentals that needed some work this year, so net rental income was only $29k. But my passive referral income covered most of that $12k shortfall.
My next dilemma is trying to figure out when to dump the rentals. Rentals have been psychologically helpful because they've kept us from having to spend down the stash. We're still young enough to deal with them, but we don't need the low grade stress of wondering what's going to break next. Selling them outright will kill our ACA subsidies and leave us with large tax bills for the years that we sell them in. It would be best if we could sell both in the same year, but that's fairly unlikely.
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Yes...incredible. Not retiring at the top of the market (and spending a lot less due to covid) has left me stress free regarding money.
Household spending was $41k last year (which was less than expected when I started this thread due to ACA and covid decreasing our projected expenses). We have two rentals that needed some work this year, so net rental income was only $29k. But my passive referral income covered most of that $12k shortfall.
My next dilemma is trying to figure out when to dump the rentals. Rentals have been psychologically helpful because they've kept us from having to spend down the stash. We're still young enough to deal with them, but we don't need the low grade stress of wondering what's going to break next. Selling them outright will kill our ACA subsidies and leave us with large tax bills for the years that we sell them in. It would be best if we could sell both in the same year, but that's fairly unlikely.
Do the numbers and logistics work for hiring a management company? That would remove most all of the stress but not force a sale of them.
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I wish I knew a good property manager, but the ones in our area don't come highly recommended. My tenants are great and pay on time, and I live close to both properties. I have good contractors that I trust (when it's not something we can handle) so I'm not sure if a property manager would add much value anyway. Most of the time it's easy money, so I should probably stop whining!
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With our property manager when we had our rental houses we feel pretty sure there was some funny business going on between the property manager and the people they hired to do work. In general with property managers there's a profit motive for them to have an unethical relationship with the people they hire to do any work on the property.
Case in point, the manager told us we would need a new HVAC unit on our second rental house, and after DH insisted on quotes from 2 other HVAC service companies, the unit got fixed for $150.
Then with our last rental house, they called me up and told us that the HVAC unit was going to need to need $1500 worth of work. After insisting on quotes from other HVAC service companies, it magically turned out that the coils had just iced up and needed to thaw. No work necessary. They were happy to give us the good news and were clueless that it really firmed up our suspicion that they had some kind of unethical relationships with their "mom and pop" service providers. It just so happened that that happened right when a deal to sell it to the tenant fell through, so we decided we were selling it for sure whether the tenant could buy it or not.
Our realtor also gave us a story of client he had who was getting exorbitant landscape maintenance bills on a property, and when the realtor swung by, there was only one bush.
So yeah, be careful with property managers when it comes to rentals.
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As a retired realtor, I had a lot of clients who hated their property managers for exactly the same reasons. When someone asked if I could recommend a property manager, I never would. It's a shame. There's simply no incentive for the property manager to keep costs down.
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Completed my paper purging project about 10 days ago (what a weight lifted!)...and decided to replace it with a junk food purging project.
We don't actually eat a lot of junk food, but we decided to get much more intentional about our diet. Lots more veggies and lean protein, lots less starch, eating smaller portions every 2.5 hours. We've both lost a couple pounds and are sleeping better. I rarely feel hungry and have lost my cravings for sweets so it seems to agree with me. My plan is to do this through April to turn it into a habit. I'm writing it down here to keep myself accountable.
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Completed my paper purging project about 10 days ago (what a weight lifted!)...and decided to replace it with a junk food purging project.
We don't actually eat a lot of junk food, but we decided to get much more intentional about our diet. Lots more veggies and lean protein, lots less starch, eating smaller portions every 2.5 hours. We've both lost a couple pounds and are sleeping better. I rarely feel hungry and have lost my cravings for sweets so it seems to agree with me. My plan is to do this through April to turn it into a habit. I'm writing it down here to keep myself accountable.
Well done finishing your paper removal project!
Yes, it is easier to make healthy choices when there isn't any junk food available in the house.
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I took 4 boxes of old text books to a used book store. They buy books by the box so we made a whopping $6. It felt better than dumping them, though. And I won't have to store or move them ever again.
We also went to the dump with an old, hard to carry tv, old broken electronics and other bulk trash. At least 200 pounds of junk out the door.
I've been on my "stop eating crap" diet for 4 weeks now and have lost 8 pounds. It's nice to see that it's working.
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I took 4 boxes of old text books to a used book store. They buy books by the box so we made a whopping $6. It felt better than dumping them, though. And I won't have to store or move them ever again.
We also went to the dump with an old, hard to carry tv, old broken electronics and other bulk trash. At least 200 pounds of junk out the door.
I've been on my "stop eating crap" diet for 4 weeks now and have lost 8 pounds. It's nice to see that it's working.
Nice!
Did you have much trouble with decompression for any length of time after you quit working? I so want to be where you are, but I've just been limp and lifeless since I quit in October.
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We FIREd six months before covid and managed to get several short trips in before March 2020. Since then we have stayed close to home. The first several months of that we were probably depressed...low energy, annoyed that we couldn't eat out or visit friends or family. Since then we've gotten used to a slower life rhythm because we're still trying to avoid covid. That seems to be slowly changing and I'm hoping for a more exciting spring and summer this year.
That doesn't really answer your question, but I don't really know if we went through a decompression stage or if the feelings we had through covid were part decompression and part loss of freedom/social life/retirement dreams.
It took me 2.5 years to have the energy to tackle my paper hoarding problem...is that decompression or procrastination?
Have you talked to your doctor about being "limp and lifeless"? It could be decompression, but it could be so many other things as well (depression, anemia, vitamin d deficiency, thyroid issue etc.).
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We FIREd six months before covid and managed to get several short trips in before March 2020. Since then we have stayed close to home. The first several months of that we were probably depressed...low energy, annoyed that we couldn't eat out or visit friends or family. Since then we've gotten used to a slower life rhythm because we're still trying to avoid covid. That seems to be slowly changing and I'm hoping for a more exciting spring and summer this year.
That doesn't really answer your question, but I don't really know if we went through a decompression stage or if the feelings we had through covid were part decompression and part loss of freedom/social life/retirement dreams.
It took me 2.5 years to have the energy to tackle my paper hoarding problem...is that decompression or procrastination?
Have you talked to your doctor about being "limp and lifeless"? It could be decompression, but it could be so many other things as well (depression, anemia, vitamin d deficiency, thyroid issue etc.).
Yeah, I guess when you retire at the beginning of a major crisis, it's hard to tell what's decompression and what's the world in chaos.
I haven't talked to a doctor yet. I will if it goes more than a few months, and if therapy doesn't improve things. It's not really anything new just so much as that I'm surprised that I'm still every bit as tired as I was when I was working a full-time job.
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@dougules, not advice but just an observation made by my Mum. She felt that it was normal to have a flat period (as she called it) after any significant event that you had been particularly looking forward to or had been working hard towards - college degree, wedding, birth of a child, achieving some particular goal (and RE would certainly count). She referred to it as (insert event) blues - eg, post wedding blues.
I know I have certainly experienced such periods, and reminding myself it was normal and the flatness would pass, seemed to help. Hope you feel okay soon.
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I took 4 boxes of old text books to a used book store. They buy books by the box so we made a whopping $6. It felt better than dumping them, though. And I won't have to store or move them ever again.
We also went to the dump with an old, hard to carry tv, old broken electronics and other bulk trash. At least 200 pounds of junk out the door.
I've been on my "stop eating crap" diet for 4 weeks now and have lost 8 pounds. It's nice to see that it's working.
Nice!
Did you have much trouble with decompression for any length of time after you quit working? I so want to be where you are, but I've just been limp and lifeless since I quit in October.
Also jumping in to respond.
I had some of this hit me nine or ten months after retiring early, I think the full decompression took eighteen months. We got some travel in before COVID, then had to figure out ways to stay busy, which was uniquely challenging for the two months everything was shut down. Afterwards we found our rhythm and moved on
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I took 4 boxes of old text books to a used book store. They buy books by the box so we made a whopping $6. It felt better than dumping them, though. And I won't have to store or move them ever again.
We also went to the dump with an old, hard to carry tv, old broken electronics and other bulk trash. At least 200 pounds of junk out the door.
I've been on my "stop eating crap" diet for 4 weeks now and have lost 8 pounds. It's nice to see that it's working.
Nice!
Did you have much trouble with decompression for any length of time after you quit working? I so want to be where you are, but I've just been limp and lifeless since I quit in October.
Also jumping in to respond.
I had some of this hit me nine or ten months after retiring early, I think the full decompression took eighteen months. We got some travel in before COVID, then had to figure out ways to stay busy, which was uniquely challenging for the two months everything was shut down. Afterwards we found our rhythm and moved on
Eighteen months? Geez. Of course that's not really that much in the grand scheme of things, so I guess I just need to keep perspective.
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I took 4 boxes of old text books to a used book store. They buy books by the box so we made a whopping $6. It felt better than dumping them, though. And I won't have to store or move them ever again.
We also went to the dump with an old, hard to carry tv, old broken electronics and other bulk trash. At least 200 pounds of junk out the door.
I've been on my "stop eating crap" diet for 4 weeks now and have lost 8 pounds. It's nice to see that it's working.
Nice!
Did you have much trouble with decompression for any length of time after you quit working? I so want to be where you are, but I've just been limp and lifeless since I quit in October.
Also jumping in to respond.
I had some of this hit me nine or ten months after retiring early, I think the full decompression took eighteen months. We got some travel in before COVID, then had to figure out ways to stay busy, which was uniquely challenging for the two months everything was shut down. Afterwards we found our rhythm and moved on
Eighteen months? Geez. Of course that's not really that much in the grand scheme of things, so I guess I just need to keep perspective.
I'm just past 18 months and still don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm fine with it. Fall of 2020 into spring of 2021 was spent mostly avoiding Covid. I honestly don't really remember what we did other than some house projects and going up to my mother in law's about once a month to check on her since she lives alone in a rural area. That would always kind of be a production where we'd really isolate before going up there. After we got vaccinated, we did some travel in the spring/summer of 2021 and were getting into a more normal flow in the fall when everything started spiking again. Then this winter we decided to buy a house and move, so that's been all consuming for the last 3 months. Still don't miss work, even though I've essentially become an unpaid handyman between our new house, our old rental, and my MIL's place.
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Just got back from an 11 day vacation (is it still called a vacation if you're FIRED?)!
It took a lot of hemming and hawing to get in the car and go (fear of covid, wanted to get taxes done first, how will we continue our low carb diet in vacation mode, etc, etc)...but SO glad we finally ventured out. We saw family, walked on beaches, played games, ate in restaurants. It was glorious! And we didn't even gain weight because we were so active.
We'll take home tests in a couple days to make sure we're covid free. And we plan to get our 2nd booster in a couple weeks since we're eligible and the next variant is creeping into our area.
I feel like we broke out of the cocoon and can roam around again. We'll still be careful, but it was such a relief to remove ourselves from our self-imposed prison.
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Even though I am retired I still sometimes get a twinge of the "back to the grind" feeling when I return home from a trip. Thankfully it passes quickly :-)
Years ago when I joined this forum, reading this thread was one of the motivators for me to retire. Glad to hear that things are going well for you.
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Yep...did laundry, washed the car, cut the grass, went grocery shopping today so we can settle back into our normal life of leisure. ; )
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Thought I'd give an update as we approach our 3rd year FIRE anniversary. It's hard to believe we've been goofing off for 3 years. It hasn't been all unicorns and rainbows, but it sure beats working!
I've now lost over 20 lbs from my "stop eating crap" diet that I started in late January. It's pretty cool that watching calories and bad carbs has worked. We're also walking around an hour a day. At this point it feels more like a life style than a diet, so I'm hoping I will continue these good habits indefinitely. I'm now below my goal weight so that's pretty exciting.
We will probably get the 5th shot when they come out with a booster that deals with the omicron variant. We still have avoided covid (as far as we know), but it's getting more challenging as we spend more time around people. We had 3 different contractors in the house last week - one sneezed on me and another had a cough. It's just a matter of time...
We are continuing to schedule short vacations and expand our horizons. It's really nice to have a change of scenery.
We last checked our net worth numbers on June 30th. We were down less than 10% from our peak...but still up 20% from when we FIREd 3 years ago. So far, living off our rental income has worked well (except for the occasional catastrophes that come up). This week in particular has been a real pain, and we're both ready to sell all 3 houses and move to Portugal. I'm mostly kidding, but we're updating our passports and keeping it as an option!
I'm super excited that the ACA subsidy cliff is likely to be removed for the next three years. We tend to flirt with that line so it will give us a bit more breathing room.
So even with a pandemic, record inflation, and a volatile stock market, my fears at the beginning of this thread were unfounded. I'm happy that we padded the stash before we quit, but it really wasn't necessary (other than providing a lot of peace of mind.)
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So even with a pandemic, record inflation, and a volatile stock market, my fears at the beginning of this thread were unfounded. I'm happy that we padded the stash before we quit, but it really wasn't necessary (other than providing a lot of peace of mind.)
If peace of mind leads towards happiness than maybe it was a good trade.
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So even with a pandemic, record inflation, and a volatile stock market, my fears at the beginning of this thread were unfounded. I'm happy that we padded the stash before we quit, but it really wasn't necessary (other than providing a lot of peace of mind.)
As a fellow Year 3 alumni...it's wild to think we'd see two bear markets, a pandemic/economic shutdowns, and raging inflation...and yet still be fine.
2019 seemed like such calmer times
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I know, right?! Worldwide pandemic and global shutdowns were not even on my bingo card of things to worry about in 2019. I was concerned for a few months in 2020 that one or both of my tenants wouldn't be able to pay rent for an extended time, but even that wouldn't have been catastrophic. Instead everyone kept their jobs and we moved on.
Oddly, the last 3 years have helped me realize that we will figure out whatever is thrown at us...and we'll probably figure out ways to take advantage of opportunities that present themselves because we're both good at problem solving and optimizing.
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That's a lovely post!
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I know, right?! Worldwide pandemic and global shutdowns were not even on my bingo card of things to worry about in 2019. I was concerned for a few months in 2020 that one or both of my tenants wouldn't be able to pay rent for an extended time, but even that wouldn't have been catastrophic. Instead everyone kept their jobs and we moved on.
Oddly, the last 3 years have helped me realize that we will figure out whatever is thrown at us...and we'll probably figure out ways to take advantage of opportunities that present themselves because we're both good at problem solving and optimizing.
It's now approaching two years since I retired. The discussions in this thread was one of the factors that motivated me to retire and put an end to OMYing :-)
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So even with a pandemic, record inflation, and a volatile stock market, my fears at the beginning of this thread were unfounded. I'm happy that we padded the stash before we quit, but it really wasn't necessary (other than providing a lot of peace of mind.)
I had the exact same realization. Inflation, stock market decline, pandemic plus some other things that affected me and.... I'm just fine.
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I know, right?! Worldwide pandemic and global shutdowns were not even on my bingo card of things to worry about in 2019. I was concerned for a few months in 2020 that one or both of my tenants wouldn't be able to pay rent for an extended time, but even that wouldn't have been catastrophic. Instead everyone kept their jobs and we moved on.
Oddly, the last 3 years have helped me realize that we will figure out whatever is thrown at us...and we'll probably figure out ways to take advantage of opportunities that present themselves because we're both good at problem solving and optimizing.
What's funny for me is the pandemic was a "yeah, we can do it" moment. I had tried to quit in 2018 but got talked into moving to a different role at work that took all responsibility and stress away, but was boring and unfulfilling. I also think I wasn't quite ready mentally and even though we'd have been fine at 4% WR, it made me nervous. But from March to September of 2020 we spent so little money the whole theoretical "we can can spending further if we need to" moved from theoretical to reality. Amazing what 0 travel, driving, or eating out for 6 months did to our budget. So when there was an opportunity to get laid off late that summer I took it and now we're closer to 3% WR than 4%, so even this spring's bear market didn't bother me at all.
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It is interesting that in all of my contingency planning, my expectation had been that everything would be more costly and I'd need a very robust 'stache to handle all of the catastrophes that would surely come my way.
As it did for SugarMountain, the pandemic shaved off all travel, gas, restaurant, clothing and entertainment expenses we had budgeted AND the healthcare subsidies for 2021 and 2022 were enhanced and the cliff was removed. And the IRS gave us additional credits totaling over $6k!
Instead of being an expensive catastrophe, we made out like bandits. And we're 3 years closer to Social Security and Medicare, and I'm beginning to think that my biggest challenges are going to be figuring out how to deal with RMDs and IRMAA from having too much money. What a difference a few years makes...
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@Omy
I've gone through all the similar thoughts. FWIW, I've elected to forgo the ACA tax credits and run our income up to the top of the 24% tax bracket with Roth IRA conversions. It's the only solution to the future RMDs and all the penalties that come with being a high income individual in my 60s.
I can't imagine taxes going down and they're scheduled to go up after 2026
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We really need to run some simulations to see if that makes sense for us as well. The ACA credits are saving us over $10k a year...but how much will delaying Roth conversions cost us?
I'm encouraged that there seems to be momentum to keep increasing the RMD age. My gut tells me we should wait until Medicare age to start dealing with Roth conversions, but how high will taxes be at that point? Will Roth conversions still be allowed? What higher future tax rate should I use in my simulations?
How did you come to the conclusion to do Roth conversions now? I'd love additional insight since my brain spins around all of the unknowns and ends up thinking it's easier to just keep getting the ACA credits now.
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There's no perfect answer because we're dealing with unknowns about the future: What will tax rates be? What will RMDs be? What will be the penalties inside Medicare / social security for making too much? How much more will the ACA cost each year and how will it adjust to being older?
In my case, we have some "bridge income" that's running our AGI up a little. I had a deferred comp plan at work that pays a few thousand a month taxable that runs through my being 53 plus some consulting income that goes up and down. So our starting point was already in the 60k range with dividends. I talked this over with a military retirees who had a similar debate with their pension and elected to do all conversions. I also know a 60yr old FIRE that talked about the importance of being low income because of just how much insurance costs.
I ran the numbers and figured out there's a minimum tax liability I'm going to have to pay. It's a big number if I do it all in four years or less because it pushes us outside of 24%, but the amount flattens out if I clean the accounts out spread across five to eleven years. If I wait longer, it starts accelerating up if I wait longer than 12 years because of runaway investment growth.
So I weighed the benefits as written today of being low income in my 40s vs. being low income in my 60s and chose the latter. Lower cost health insurance and social security won't be taxable.
I'm not used to writing five figure estimated tax payments, but it is what it is. I know I owe at least X amount and can only control keeping it at that amount or lower.
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Thanks for the response. We definitely need to dig deeper.
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I know, right?! Worldwide pandemic and global shutdowns were not even on my bingo card of things to worry about in 2019. I was concerned for a few months in 2020 that one or both of my tenants wouldn't be able to pay rent for an extended time, but even that wouldn't have been catastrophic. Instead everyone kept their jobs and we moved on.
Oddly, the last 3 years have helped me realize that we will figure out whatever is thrown at us...and we'll probably figure out ways to take advantage of opportunities that present themselves because we're both good at problem solving and optimizing.
It's now approaching two years since I retired. The discussions in this thread was one of the factors that motivated me to retire and put an end to OMYing :-)
It's nice to know that my anxiety in 2018 helped others. Don't be Omy!
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Another update. I'm not sure why I feel the need, but what the heck.
We got the 5th (!) shot at the end of September. We went with the Pfizer bivalent since Moderna wasn't available yet. Felt a little "off" for a day or two, but it was the easiest shot so far. We are acting bullet proof at the moment (restaurants, travel, sometimes going to stores unmasked, meeting friends inside houses.) I suspect we will get more conservative when cases start climbing in our area again...but it's nice to feel "normal" again.
We've been working on yard and house projects and maintaining our diet and exercise goals. We need to intersperse a bit more fun and travel in our lives and have made strides to actually put fun stuff on the calendar instead of only booking at the last minute.
We haven't looked at our third quarter numbers yet. No rush to see the carnage. We haven't had to sell any stocks since retiring (rental income and dividends have covered expenses), so we haven't gotten worked up about the state of the market.
We are talking more about selling the rentals to remove that stress from our lives, but we're probably at least a couple years away from that. Rental income seems to be a good hedge against a bear market and inflation, but it definitely comes with it's own set of issues.
Our ACA premiums will go up a bit in 2023 (by 15% ish), but it's still such a reasonable number (and WAY less than I had projected prior to retiring.) Health insurance premiums had been my biggest concern when I started this thread, and so far those fears have not been realized.
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Even though you're in a different stratum of scale from myself, I really appreciated reading your progress & successes, so I for one am glad you're still updating!
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I've been putting off looking at my numbers too ... I'm hoping the terrible state of Sterling has saved me somewhat in absolute terms (obviously still means I'm stuck with a currency nobody wants but hey ho, at least I live here!)
We've also been thinking that we need to start actually planning a bit more stuff. I've just about got enough head space now to actually think about it so need to turn that thinking into actual planning, booking and doing! I don't think it needs to be a lot necessarily, but just having some things in the diary that break up the different sections of time is really useful when you don't have work projects to do that for you.
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So we ran the numbers, and we're *only* down 10% from our peak. We are actually up over 20% from our retirement date...so it wasn't the bloodbath I was anticipating.
We got back from a 10 day vacation on Wednesday and are waiting another day or two to test to see if we have continued to evade Covid. The vacation was mostly a bust (too much time in the car and too much family drama) but the change of scenery was nice, and it helped us appreciate being back home.
I've made some resolutions to be more active - physically, socially, and creatively. I should probably start a journal to keep myself accountable, but that sounds too much like work.
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I've made some resolutions to be more active - physically, socially, and creatively. I should probably start a journal to keep myself accountable, but that sounds too much like work.
Have you tried to track your habits? I found that I have a better chance to do healthy things if I track them. The tricks are to set SMART goals and don't get too ambious.
See an example https://jamesclear.com/habit-tracker
I just hand-draw bigger grids for 5 habits that I am tracking. Bigger grids allow me write down quick notes.
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We are talking more about selling the rentals to remove that stress from our lives, but we're probably at least a couple years away from that. Rental income seems to be a good hedge against a bear market and inflation, but it definitely comes with it's own set of issues.
Our ACA premiums will go up a bit in 2023 (by 15% ish), but it's still such a reasonable number (and WAY less than I had projected prior to retiring.) Health insurance premiums had been my biggest concern when I started this thread, and so far those fears have not been realized.
How do you manage to keep ACA income low with rental income? Is it through mortgage and improvement etc.?
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Thanks for the habit tracker info...I will set that up tomorrow.
After subtracting expenses, depreciation, and improvements, our rental income and dividends are under the 400% FPL threshold which gives us significant ACA subsidies. And since they've continued to eliminate the "cliff" for 2023-2025 we won't have to worry about falling out of that range for the next 3 years.
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I had an epiphany this weekend when a forum member posted this little nugget:
https://www.madfientist.com/i-will-teach-you-to-be-rich-interview/
I also plan to read Die with Zero by Bill Perkins and am posting here to keep myself accountable.
We were quite good at accumulation, and have spent 3.5 years post FIRE keeping our expenses at an infinitely sustainable 0-1% SWR.
We have basically lived off our rental income and not spent a lot more than that due to covid slowing down our travel plans.
Two of the practices I am putting in place:
1) Spend A LOT more money on travel, hobbies, exploring interests, and having meaningful experiences.
2) Stop looking for the best deal and be more concerned with getting great quality. I do this subconsciously and need to break this habit.
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I had an epiphany this weekend when a forum member posted this little nugget:
https://www.madfientist.com/i-will-teach-you-to-be-rich-interview/
I also plan to read Die with Zero by Bill Perkins and am posting here to keep myself accountable.
We were quite good at accumulation, and have spent 3.5 years post FIRE keeping our expenses at an infinitely sustainable 0-1% SWR.
We have basically lived off our rental income and not spent a lot more than that due to covid slowing down our travel plans.
Two of the practices I am putting in place:
1) Spend A LOT more money on travel, hobbies, exploring interests, and having meaningful experiences.
2) Stop looking for the best deal and be more concerned with getting great quality. I do this subconsciously and need to break this habit.
Good luck on spending the money down.
If you run out of ideas I have heard Teslas are pretty popular on the forum. 😀
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Thanks. I used to think I could see a Tesla in my distant future....but I no longer equate Musk with quality.
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Time to put some of that optimization skill towards figuring out what you need for your very best life.
I encourage you to start broadening your thinking beyond just "I might indulge a bit more in nicer versions of what I already do" and maybe start looking at the vast, enormous range of possibilities that are open to you for how you could live your life.
You could practically do anything. Is there anything you could fathom doing in this life that sounds exciting or satisfying?
I'm not saying you have to do anything radically different from what you are doing. That may in fact be your most optimal path to life satisfaction and happiness, but it's a natural thing for people to hem themselves in to what they are accustomed to.
You have enough wealth to do almost anything. That's really exciting.
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That is the piece that I stumble on for sure.
Some people are able to look at a menu and see lots of good options. If I find something I like, I stick with it and don't really look around for other options because the menu seems overwhelming (and why risk getting something I won't like as much as the tried and true.)
I have no idea where this self-limiting behavior comes from...maybe it's time to hire a life coach to help me through this part.
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That is the piece that I stumble on for sure.
Some people are able to look at a menu and see lots of good options. If I find something I like, I stick with it and don't really look around for other options because the menu seems overwhelming (and why risk getting something I won't like as much as the tried and true.)
I have no idea where this self-limiting behavior comes from...maybe it's time to hire a life coach to help me through this part.
Well it's pretty obviously fear based, but what's underpinning that fear?
Humans tend to put an ENORMOUS premium on what they know, even if they aren't optimally happy with that option.
I mean, if you are optimally happy with the tried and true menu option, then stick with it. But if you aren't optimally happy, then you do actually have the power to change this pattern of behaviour and seek out better options.
When you have the kind of freedom you do, fear of the unknown is completely useless. It doesn't serve you in any way, shape or form.
I also get totally overwhelmed by menus at restaurants, I don't like all of the options, but I have the opposite reaction to you. Instead of playing it safe, I roll the dice every time. I just ask to be surprised.
People think it's batshit insane when I do it, I get really strong reactions from people, but FFS, it's just food. A bad meal here and there isn't nearly as deleterious to my emotional experience of life as being rigid and fearful is.
I find it telling that people are so shocked when I don't even look at menus and just say "surprise me" to wait staff. Like, this is about the lowest stakes risk a human being could possible take in their life, but it goes to show just how powerful the fear of the unknown is in people.
Perhaps you need some professional support to work on this, like a coach or therapist, but you can also just push yourself out of your comfort zone and see what happens.
Getting a crappy meal, or finding out you don't enjoy amateur live wrestling, or that learning guitar sucks and hurts your hands, or that geocaching really isn't your thing, or that Tai Chi in the park is boring, and Shakespeare in the park is even more boring, or learning Spanish takes way more practice than you expected and you just can't roll your fucking R's, or martial arts is just too high risk for injury, etc, etc
All of these kinds of realizations are low stakes costs to trying new things.
FTR, amateur live wrestling is absolutely fantastic entertainment and after being dragged to it pretty much against my will, it's now one of my very, very favourite activities. Actually I love almost all of the activities listed above except for geocaching, never actually done that.
You just never know what unknown things are going to resonate for you. And the cost of trying new things is pretty low, like 99% of the time.
So you could just, y'know, try stuff. Not necessarily even to find new things that you like, but just to get accustomed to expanding your comfort zone.
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As a kid, I lived all over the place including two European countries. I was a military brat and didn't like changing schools and friends all of the time. As a teenager and in my early twenties I settled into the area I currently live in.
Then I married adventure boy and we had some great adventures during the 15 years we were together. We sailed to Bermuda and Florida and lived on a boat for years. We also lived in an RV and traveled the US. From age 25 to 40, we had a ton of different experiences. After we divorced, I embraced a much more stable life and eventually married a much more stable guy.
Our married life was much more work centered than my previous marriage. We had a good social life and spent lots of time on activities with friends. Then we retired and covid happened and our social activities dried up.
At age 60, I don't have the same drive to try new things that I did in my 20s and 30s. I don't think it's fear-based (though I'm still avoiding covid so that may be some of it).
Lots to think about. I definitely want to stay active and become more socially engaged again.
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As a kid, I lived all over the place including two European countries. I was a military brat and didn't like changing schools and friends all of the time. As a teenager and in my early twenties I settled into the area I currently live in.
Then I married adventure boy and we had some great adventures during the 15 years we were together. We sailed to Bermuda and Florida and lived on a boat for years. We also lived in an RV and traveled the US. From age 25 to 40, we had a ton of different experiences. After we divorced, I embraced a much more stable life and eventually married a much more stable guy.
Our married life was much more work centered than my previous marriage. We had a good social life and spent lots of time on activities with friends. Then we retired and covid happened and our social activities dried up.
At age 60, I don't have the same drive to try new things that I did in my 20s and 30s. I don't think it's fear-based (though I'm still avoiding covid so that may be some of it).
Lots to think about. I definitely want to stay active and become more socially engaged again.
So it's not a fear of unknown, it just sounded a lot like it the way you described it.
I wonder why that is??
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I feel like it's inertia more than fear. If someone suggests something interesting, I'll happily do it - even if it seems intimidating. But it's hard for me to come up with a list of interesting or challenging new things to try. I guess I need to brainstorm and work through that.
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Some ideas for things to do...
Sometimes when I'm bored I will just walk around a place I have never been to before.
I recently discovered that my local Fedex has a side entrance that is hidden but not gated at all. I spent an hour sitting under a tree in the woods outside of the Fedex with my eyes closed.
Last summer I took my hammock into the woods one day after the rare stressful week at work and simply laid in the hammock all day staring at the sky, contemplating life.
I also spend an absurd amount of time just visiting with people and socializing.
My brother in law spent the last 7 years sitting in his bedroom playing video games and watching tv. Sometimes he leaves to go across the hall to the bathroom. He seems pretty happy...I assume. He never says much when I try to talk to him.
When I get really bored I watch this video. https://youtu.be/9v99hclktVA (This is Youtube, but you may or may not want to watch this at work. I sent it to my manager and he found it hilarious.)
You can practice striking up random conversations with strangers. That could be fun, or not, depending on who you wind up talking with.
There are a ton of card games to be played. I like euchre and spades the most. Cards against humanity is also fun to play...imo.
You could move to Hawaii for a year or two and sit on the beach. That sounds like fun to me.
You can follow the lacking ambition guy and buy a small plot of land in the desert for 5k or so and live there for a year, reading books from the local library and contemplating life.
There are always the van dwellers...if you are into that sort of thing. It would make slow travel pretty easy and covid friendly since you live in your own van.
You can talk with random internet strangers.
I could go on forever...
Would you rather do something that is relaxing or exciting or challenging or social?
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RE: trying new things on a menu, is your partner a bit more adventurous? When I go out with others I am often the one who is willing to try something unusual, and I'm happy to let whoever I am eating with try a bite or two. For places you intend to go back to, that is one way to get out of an ordering rut.
Sometimes I will also change what I was planning to order because the other person is thinking of ordering the same thing, and it is more interesting to have two different dishes to try.
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When ordering food could you order your favorite and something else, with the intention of taking food home in a box. Personally any restaurant food in the fridge will get eaten relatively quickly.
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The menu story is a metaphor for my life. At every restaurant, I usually order the same thing...and it's usually fairly healthy and reasonably priced. I want to start ordering without paying attention to price, and I want to be more experimental (in life and in restaurants.)
I'm realizing that I'm waiting for excitement/fulfillment to show up, but I'm not actually doing the work to figure out what it is I actually want to do.
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Trying new things, especially new experiences, seems like a broadly valuable goal. I actually had to turn off the Mad Fientist interview, though - Sethi’s got that salesman smarm, exhaling every breath with a catchphrase, for one thing, but I couldn’t stand his message either; it seemed to hinge on the idea that spending was somehow necessary to happiness or fulfillment, which feels disordered, bound for the hedonic treadmill. I’d rather simply behave as if everything in life were free & then act in accordance with my values: eschew waste, create meaning. If I’m not going to get more value out of the expensive experience I’d rather buy the cheap version & donate the difference. The world is not improved when I go from 400 thread count to 800 thread count sheets; it is improved when I give that extra $100 to a food bank.
I understand the inertia, though. There was actually a study on this that unless you’re very novelty-seeking, ordering a favorite menu item tended to result in higher-rated experiences overall. Some people aren’t just chomping at the bit for unexpected reward dopamine - that’s not only okay, it’s a healthy way to live - though the fact that it’s much less profitable for others creates a lot of pressure against it.
The one bit of the Mad Fientist interview I liked was Brandon’s idea to get private tutoring in pourover brewing - taking classes is something I’ve done a little of & want to do much more of as it opens whole new categories of things you didn’t know you didn’t know to go learn about. I also like what Treeleaf said about just finding an unexplored place to go experience with focused attention & Metalcat’s “surprise me” restaurant orders a lot. I was excited about Alanstache’s idea to order a favorite PLUS a new dish ... but have just realized that’s actually something I already always do every (rare) time we order family-style Chinese or Thai takeout or delivery, with great results, so I’ll upgrade from “excited” to “wholeheartedly endorse.”
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The menu story is a metaphor for my life. At every restaurant,
I usually order the same thing...and it's usually fairly healthy and reasonably priced. I want to start ordering without paying attention to price, and I want to be more experimental (in life and in restaurants.)
I'm realizing that I'm waiting for excitement/fulfillment to show up, but I'm not actually doing the work to figure out what it is I actually want to do.
Lol, I got that it was a metaphor and I hope you got that I used my own restaurant example as a metaphor in response.
I'm very interested by all of this because the way you are talking shoes a distinct dissatisfaction with some degree of stagnancy. I fully misinterpreted your menu metaphor as meaning you get overwhelmed due to fear, which is incredibly common, but you've clarified that's not it.
Your current explanation makes it sound more like you've experimented a lot in life and have settled into routines that work for you and are generally quite good, but you've kind of gotten stuck in them.
This I can very much relate to. Not for myself, I can't even live in the same house for more than 3 years without getting ansty. But my DH is older and after a few years in our current place had really optimized a great routine for himself, but he kind of got stuck in it.
Then we had a conversation with my parents. My step dad had been cajoled into joining a darts league. And my mom talked about how impressed she was that he actually went because it was "so far out of his comfort zone." Um...They live in a small town. They owned a pet food store, so they know everyone in town. They're very sociable people. The darts games are held at a pub they frequent. My step dad has had many adventures in his life including running off by himself to live in Jamaica. He spent decades on the road as a traveling sales executive and then bailed to run a homeless shelter.
This is NOT a man who should feel intimidated by joining a darts league. But he was because his routine for the past decade had become so ingrained.
I looked at my DH with his ever increasingly metaphorically well worn path in the grass of his day-to-day lifestyle and said "we need to shake this shit up."
Then I impulse bought a house in rural Newfoundland (neither of us had ever been there) and dragged us out there for all of last summer.
He saw whales for the first time.
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Lol, I got that it was a metaphor and I hope you got that I used my own restaurant example as a metaphor in response.
Yes...I got that you got it.
I'm very interested by all of this because the way you are talking shoes a distinct dissatisfaction with some degree of stagnancy. I fully misinterpreted your menu metaphor as meaning you get overwhelmed due to fear, which is incredibly common, but you've clarified that's not it.
Your current explanation makes it sound more like you've experimented a lot in life and have settled into routines that work for you and are generally quite good, but you've kind of gotten stuck in them.
Yes...exactly right.
I've eaten just about every type of food and love it all. If someone else is doing the ordering at a new place, I will try anything. If I'm ordering, I will likely get the same thing I ordered last time at that restaurant (this is more literal than metaphorical but I'm starting to see that pattern in my life as well).
This I can very much relate to. Not for myself, I can't even live in the same house for more than 3 years without getting ansty. But my DH is older and after a few years in our current place had really optimized a great routine for himself, but he kind of got stuck in it.
Then we had a conversation with my parents. My step dad had been cajoled into joining a darts league. And my mom talked about how impressed she was that he actually went because it was "so far out of his comfort zone." Um...They live in a small town. They owned a pet food store, so they know everyone in town. They're very sociable people. The darts games are held at a pub they frequent. My step dad has had many adventures in his life including running off by himself to live in Jamaica. He spent decades on the road as a traveling sales executive and then bailed to run a homeless shelter.
This is NOT a man who should feel intimidated by joining a darts league. But he was because his routine for the past decade had become so ingrained.
I looked at my DH with his ever increasingly metaphorically well worn path in the grass of his day-to-day lifestyle and said "we need to shake this shit up."
Then I impulse bought a house in rural Newfoundland (neither of us had ever been there) and dragged us out there for all of last summer.
He saw whales for the first time.
Yes. I feel a need to see some metaphorical whales. (I've seen whales and dolphins lots of times and never tire of it...from whale watching boats and from the boat that ex and I had together).
I have no problem playing in leagues or taking a class or buying a house. I realize I may experience an uncomfortable or awkward moment for anything new that I try, but I'm willing to try most things.
DH and I would both love to shake things up a bit (we're both bored with this covid-avoidance routine we've gotten ourselves into), but neither of us is good at taking the lead to do so. He's dabbled in some things, I've dabbled in some things, but we both need to dive deeper on this topic.
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Trying new things, especially new experiences, seems like a broadly valuable goal. I actually had to turn off the Mad Fientist interview, though - Sethi’s got that salesman smarm, exhaling every breath with a catchphrase, for one thing, but I couldn’t stand his message either; it seemed to hinge on the idea that spending was somehow necessary to happiness or fulfillment, which feels disordered, bound for the hedonic treadmill. I’d rather simply behave as if everything in life were free & then act in accordance with my values: eschew waste, create meaning. If I’m not going to get more value out of the expensive experience I’d rather buy the cheap version & donate the difference. The world is not improved when I go from 400 thread count to 800 thread count sheets; it is improved when I give that extra $100 to a food bank.
I understand the inertia, though. There was actually a study on this that unless you’re very novelty-seeking, ordering a favorite menu item tended to result in higher-rated experiences overall. Some people aren’t just chomping at the bit for unexpected reward dopamine - that’s not only okay, it’s a healthy way to live - though the fact that it’s much less profitable for others creates a lot of pressure against it.
The one bit of the Mad Fientist interview I liked was Brandon’s idea to get private tutoring in pourover brewing - taking classes is something I’ve done a little of & want to do much more of as it opens whole new categories of things you didn’t know you didn’t know to go learn about. I also like what Treeleaf said about just finding an unexplored place to go experience with focused attention & Metalcat’s “surprise me” restaurant orders a lot. I was excited about Alanstache’s idea to order a favorite PLUS a new dish ... but have just realized that’s actually something I already always do every (rare) time we order family-style Chinese or Thai takeout or delivery, with great results, so I’ll upgrade from “excited” to “wholeheartedly endorse.”
I read the transcript instead of watching the video so I didn't pick up on the smarm. I identified with their points of spending more when it adds value. Traditionally, I spend a lot of time and energy trying to find deals on a hotel...when I should just stick with decent brands and pay a bit more. An extra $50-100 night won't break us and will likely add value to the trip.
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Some ideas for things to do...
Sometimes when I'm bored I will just walk around a place I have never been to before.
I recently discovered that my local Fedex has a side entrance that is hidden but not gated at all. I spent an hour sitting under a tree in the woods outside of the Fedex with my eyes closed.
Last summer I took my hammock into the woods one day after the rare stressful week at work and simply laid in the hammock all day staring at the sky, contemplating life.
I also spend an absurd amount of time just visiting with people and socializing.
My brother in law spent the last 7 years sitting in his bedroom playing video games and watching tv. Sometimes he leaves to go across the hall to the bathroom. He seems pretty happy...I assume. He never says much when I try to talk to him.
When I get really bored I watch this video. https://youtu.be/9v99hclktVA (This is Youtube, but you may or may not want to watch this at work. I sent it to my manager and he found it hilarious.)
You can practice striking up random conversations with strangers. That could be fun, or not, depending on who you wind up talking with.
There are a ton of card games to be played. I like euchre and spades the most. Cards against humanity is also fun to play...imo.
You could move to Hawaii for a year or two and sit on the beach. That sounds like fun to me.
You can follow the lacking ambition guy and buy a small plot of land in the desert for 5k or so and live there for a year, reading books from the local library and contemplating life.
There are always the van dwellers...if you are into that sort of thing. It would make slow travel pretty easy and covid friendly since you live in your own van.
You can talk with random internet strangers.
I could go on forever...
Would you rather do something that is relaxing or exciting or challenging or social?
I'd love van life (but DH is less enthusiastic) so we haven't pulled the trigger on that yet. I'm still working on it though.
I'm a water person (and he isn't) so I bought a kayak for myself and go out with friends at least weekly for 7 months of the year.
I will probably buy a hammock and work on landscaping projects this spring.
I enjoy games and social activities with friends. This part of my life was stifled by covid but seems to be opening up again.
I like hiking and camping (DH is not a great tent camping companion...low tolerance for discomfort).
I have taken painting, pottery, and glass classes and enjoyed them all for a period of time.
I have joined leagues and been quite competitive.
Before FIRE and covid, these activities and adventures (on top of a job I really enjoyed) made up a pretty busy/fulfilling life. I now have a lot more time on my hands...
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I identified with their points of spending more when it adds value. Traditionally, I spend a lot of time and energy trying to find deals on a hotel...when I should just stick with decent brands and pay a bit more. An extra $50-100 night won't break us and will likely add value to the trip.
Or you can do what I have started doing -- if you are using a search engine like Hotels.com, sort the results by guest rating, pick a few that seem to be a good value for money (I will pay more for a central location, or easy/free parking if I am traveling with a car), read the first 10-20 reviews to look for major warning signs, and then book one of those. I won't even look at hotels that don't have a guest rating average of 8 or higher anymore -- the ones that get dinged simply don't offer the level of service/quality/value for money that I am looking for.
You can find some really nice experiences this way, while getting more variety. On my road trip to Moab/Longmont, they included:
A cute western themed mom and pop place outside Twin Falls, Idaho
A nice higher end chain in a convenient location in Denver (we walked to some fabulous food, including a great pizza place and the best ice cream in Denver)
A really funky, fun bicycle themed complex just outside Colorado Springs
A safe, clean campground in Billings, MT where I slept in the back of my car for the first time
A chain place in Couer D'Alaine that was nothing special but a good place to crash and walk to a nice bowl of pho after a long day on the road.
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Lol, I got that it was a metaphor and I hope you got that I used my own restaurant example as a metaphor in response.
Yes...I got that you got it.
I'm very interested by all of this because the way you are talking shoes a distinct dissatisfaction with some degree of stagnancy. I fully misinterpreted your menu metaphor as meaning you get overwhelmed due to fear, which is incredibly common, but you've clarified that's not it.
Your current explanation makes it sound more like you've experimented a lot in life and have settled into routines that work for you and are generally quite good, but you've kind of gotten stuck in them.
Yes...exactly right.
I've eaten just about every type of food and love it all. If someone else is doing the ordering at a new place, I will try anything. If I'm ordering, I will likely get the same thing I ordered last time at that restaurant (this is more literal than metaphorical but I'm starting to see that pattern in my life as well).
This I can very much relate to. Not for myself, I can't even live in the same house for more than 3 years without getting ansty. But my DH is older and after a few years in our current place had really optimized a great routine for himself, but he kind of got stuck in it.
Then we had a conversation with my parents. My step dad had been cajoled into joining a darts league. And my mom talked about how impressed she was that he actually went because it was "so far out of his comfort zone." Um...They live in a small town. They owned a pet food store, so they know everyone in town. They're very sociable people. The darts games are held at a pub they frequent. My step dad has had many adventures in his life including running off by himself to live in Jamaica. He spent decades on the road as a traveling sales executive and then bailed to run a homeless shelter.
This is NOT a man who should feel intimidated by joining a darts league. But he was because his routine for the past decade had become so ingrained.
I looked at my DH with his ever increasingly metaphorically well worn path in the grass of his day-to-day lifestyle and said "we need to shake this shit up."
Then I impulse bought a house in rural Newfoundland (neither of us had ever been there) and dragged us out there for all of last summer.
He saw whales for the first time.
Yes. I feel a need to see some metaphorical whales. (I've seen whales and dolphins lots of times and never tire of it...from whale watching boats and from the boat that ex and I had together).
I have no problem playing in leagues or taking a class or buying a house. I realize I may experience an uncomfortable or awkward moment for anything new that I try, but I'm willing to try most things.
DH and I would both love to shake things up a bit (we're both bored with this covid-avoidance routine we've gotten ourselves into), but neither of us is good at taking the lead to do so. He's dabbled in some things, I've dabbled in some things, but we both need to dive deeper on this topic.
Yeah, I'm totally getting you now.
You're a lot like my DH, willing to do anything, but easily sucked into comfortable routine, which is fine, there is zero need for changing a routine that is making you optimally happy, but like him, you sound like it's dragging you down.
What I told him was that he was becoming an old man, while he's normally a perpetually youthful energy kind of person. Our BIG shake up last year catapulted him back to being his young, spritely, bright eyed and bushy tailed self.
But if you don't have a compulsive adventure seeker attached to you and the two of you are prone to settling in a little too readily, then it can be hard to get dragged out of the cozy duvet of routine.
Just like spending too much time in bed, too much comfortable routine can start to feel psychologically convalescent.
You metaphorically need something to motivate you to get out of your comfy bed.
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You metaphorically need something to motivate you to get out of your comfy bed.
Lol...I am literally under the duvet listening to the howling wind. Laundry and meal prep are not very motivating at the moment.
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I identified with their points of spending more when it adds value. Traditionally, I spend a lot of time and energy trying to find deals on a hotel...when I should just stick with decent brands and pay a bit more. An extra $50-100 night won't break us and will likely add value to the trip.
Or you can do what I have started doing -- if you are using a search engine like Hotels.com, sort the results by guest rating, pick a few that seem to be a good value for money (I will pay more for a central location, or easy/free parking if I am traveling with a car), read the first 10-20 reviews to look for major warning signs, and then book one of those. I won't even look at hotels that don't have a guest rating average of 8 or higher anymore -- the ones that get dinged simply don't offer the level of service/quality/value for money that I am looking for.
You can find some really nice experiences this way, while getting more variety. On my road trip to Moab/Longmont, they included:
A cute western themed mom and pop place outside Twin Falls, Idaho
A nice higher end chain in a convenient location in Denver (we walked to some fabulous food, including a great pizza place and the best ice cream in Denver)
A really funky, fun bicycle themed complex just outside Colorado Springs
A safe, clean campground in Billings, MT where I slept in the back of my car for the first time
A chain place in Couer D'Alaine that was nothing special but a good place to crash and walk to a nice bowl of pho after a long day on the road.
Exactly this...filtering out 7s and below has made our last few trips so much more pleasant all around. I intend to start trying more 10s to see if the experience is even better. If not, I will probably go back to 8s and 9s.
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https://juliacameronlive.com/books-by-julia/its-never-too-late-to-begin-again/
Hi OMY, I found this book years ago in the library and really enjoyed reading it.
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Thanks...I will check it out!
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@Metalcat, I was outside doing yardwork and thought my silly "what am I going to do with my life?" issues must seem so trivial and privileged to somebody who's stuck in bed for months and months waiting for her body to heal.
I just wanted you to know that I appreciate the time and energy that you put into your posts.
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@Metalcat, I was outside doing yardwork and thought my silly "what am I going to do with my life?" issues must seem so trivial and privileged to somebody who's stuck in bed for months and months waiting for her body to heal.
I just wanted you to know that I appreciate the time and energy that you put into your posts.
My 64 year old mom retired this year and just today had a massive brain bleed that has blown out the entire front left part of her brain.
So even I feel like my little broken femur isn't that big a deal today.
Don't compare your problems and conclude that they're trivial. Do the opposite, take it *more* serously. Thank your fucking stars that your legs work and your brain isn't being decimated by an uncontrollable bleed, and go figure out how to have some god damn fun.
Don't waste your capacity for fun and adventure because you can lose it at any time.
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I'm so sorry...that's just devastating. I will heed your advice.
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I'm sorry @Metalcat - it really does put things into perspective...
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My 64 year old mom retired this year and just today had a massive brain bleed that has blown out the entire front left part of her brain.
Gentle *HUGS* Metalcat!
This is the perfect example of why OMY can be a very bad choice. My Dad retired fairly early - by the time he was 70, his mobility was noticeably impaired due to Parkinson's. At least my parents had 14 years of relatively easy travel in retirement.
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@Metalcat I'm sorry..:(
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I just finished Die With Zero. It really helped me rethink the way I look at money. So much so that I shocked DH. He said "Talk me out of spending $1400 on new irons." I said "Why?"
It was one of those "who are you and what have you done with my wife?" moments but I truly didn't care if he spent the money.
I've been doing a lot of reflecting (and rereading everybody's recent posts on this thread). I've come up with some ideas (section hiking a lengthy trail, kayaking new bodies of water, taking regular road trips, painting, and experimenting with new restaurants). I'm actively filling up my calendar and buying supplies and generally shaking the dust off my predictable life.
I also attended my first super spreader after 3 years of avoiding large inside gatherings. At least 8 of 100+ people ended up with covid, but we somehow squeaked by unscathed (despite hugging some of the peeps who later tested positive). We're both tired of limiting our lives and it feels like it's time to start taking a little more risk in that regard.
Anyway...thanks for all of the ideas and for the kick in the rear end...I really needed it.
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This is a great update to read.
I can just feel the zippy life energy coming out of it.
Enjoy the new menu items of life! And when you have to spend to do it, that's great, you have money!
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Thanks for the kind words.
I finally ordered a new kitchen table and chairs. DH bought the current set 30ish years ago. It's old and clunky and doesn't work well in the space. We've talked about replacing it for years, but my frugality always got in the way....even though I hated the damn thing.
I'm so freaking excited.
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been quietly following your posts over the years.
happy for you that you're enjoying your money and life.
looking forward to the updates!
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Thank you. It feels a little obnoxious to be discussing this as a problem. Poor thing, she's stuck and can't figure out how to spend money...boo hoo. But if it's been a challenge for me, it's probably a challenge for others as well.
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I'm totally walking with you. I've been surprised at how hard it is to undo a lifetime of saving (especially with the market decrease at the start of my retirement!). But like you, I've worked pretty hard to change my mindset. Also, like you, we bought new furniture. For the first time in my life (I'm 56), I'm going to have matching living room furniture. I'm excited!!
I don't want you to feel bad. First, it's your journal...you can talk about whatever you want. And second, you are absolutely right that its hard for us innate frugal people to spend money. PhilB talks about the same thing in his journal. You are not alone!!!
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Thanks. Sounds like I should check out PhilB's journal.
How do I go about moving this to the journal section? Or should I even bother? I'm well past the initial question but feel weirdly intimidated to start a journal from scratch.
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I feel like we are struggling with the same thing @Omy so love reading about how you are handling it.
And yes, "struggling" is probably putting it too strongly. But that's why we write about it here instead of complaining to people in real life who might have UPP (unMustachian People Problems) rather than merely MPP.
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Thank you. It feels a little obnoxious to be discussing this as a problem. Poor thing, she's stuck and can't figure out how to spend money...boo hoo. But if it's been a challenge for me, it's probably a challenge for others as well.
This is a very valid topic here, we've all talked about the inner bag lady for years.
This is where it's so important to distinguish between frugal and cheap. Not replacing your dining room table that you hate isn't frugal, it's cheap. Now you could be frugal about replacing it, you could look for a used option, maybe one that you refinish yourself, or you could even build one. I did both of these things last year because I wasn't willing to pay Newfoundland furniture prices for tables.
Or you could go the more spendy option and replace it with new furniture in the event that you want something very specific and perhaps aren't handy enough to make. I also did this 3 years ago when I wanted a very specific size of convertible table for my small apartment.
It's so important to distinguish between frugality and being cheap. The difference is that frugality maximizes your quality of like and being cheap lowers it. Frugality pushes you to make your money work as hard for you as possible. Being cheap means not allowing your money to work for you optimally.
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Interesting, Mcat. My challenge was that it was an expensive table in its day (but just not my taste) so it seemed wasteful to get rid of it.
I actually have two different family members who are interested in taking it off my hands and DH thinks someone will pay actual dollars for it if my family decides they aren't interested in it for free.
DH has always liked it. He picked it out 30 years ago and has never understood my aversion to it but agrees it is dated and too wide for the current space. He joked that it's only fair that I get a new table since he's getting new golf clubs. So I guess it wasn't just my cheapness that created the inertia in this case.
And yes, LightTripper, I'd get serious eye rolls if I whined to my family and friends about not being able to spend my money lol.
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Interesting, Mcat. My challenge was that it was an expensive table in its day (but just not my taste) so it seemed wasteful to get rid of it.
I actually have two different family members who are interested in taking it off my hands and DH thinks someone will pay actual dollars for it if my family decides they aren't interested in it for free.
DH has always liked it. He picked it out 30 years ago and has never understood my aversion to it but agrees it is dated and too wide for the current space. He joked that it's only fair that I get a new table since he's getting new golf clubs. So I guess it wasn't just my cheapness that created the inertia in this case.
And yes, LightTripper, I'd get serious eye rolls if I whined to my family and friends about not being able to spend my money lol.
It's rarely *just* cheapness at play. Life is complicated and nuanced.
However, it's not so much the reason for keeping it that matters, it's why you feel *bad* about replacing it that's important.
You shouldn't feel guilty about doing something that doesn't hurt anyone. That's crazy talk. If you sell it or give it away, someone will actually benefit, which is awesome. I just benefitted from a used table out in Newfoundland and it made me SO HAPPY.
If you should beat yourself up for anything, it's for agreeing to buy an expensive table you didn't like in the first place. But that was a long time ago, your spouse really liked it, and you probably assumed you would just get used to it. Well, lesson learned, don't agree to buy expensive tables you really don't like.
That's not a huge life mistake, you can forgive yourself for that and move on. But using that to shame yourself for getting a new table that you actually like us kind of bonkers.
Here's the thing, there's nothing saintly about being cheap. There's no medal for putting up with a crappy table. As I said already, if you want to be frugal about replacing it, you could hunt for a used table, you could build a new table, you could just take the top off and build a new table top. There are TONS of minimally wasteful, inexpensive options for improving your table situation.
This nonsense sunken cost thing makes no sense. If someone offered you a free table that was perfect, would you feel bad getting rid of your expensive table? No, of course not!
[If you answered yes, you might have issues]
There is literally nothing to feel guilty about by not keeping the table. So settle that issue in your mind.
The next issue is whether or not it's worthwhile to spend on a new table. Well, let's put it this way. Let's assume I'm back in Newfoundland last year when I was looking for a table. A neighbour offers me a table that I hate and it's the wrong size for my house, his cousin is very happy to take the table if I don't. I can either accept that awful table, buy a used table, build a table, or buy a new one. I can readily afford any of my options.
Should I feel guilty about not taking the free table??
Because that's basically the situation you are in. You spent money on this table years ago. That's a mistake that's in the past that you just need to let go of. Your table is not an expensive table, it's a free table you have as an option because of an expensive mistake you made in the past that you won't ever make again. Cool. It's a free table.
Is the fact that your table is free more valuable than having a table that works? If you had no table, would you choose this awful free table over other better tables that cost money?
And why would guilt play any role? Who are you hurting by choosing to spend a bit of money on a table that works for you rather than choosing a free table that doesn't?
I personally will almost never pay full price for a table, they're obscenely expensive. Even the new table I bought for the apartment was patio table from Ikea for only $130.
I wouldn't feel guilty or "bad" spending $3000 on a table and chair set, I just would never do it because there are other things I would rather spend on and too many used tables out there that I could modify if needed.
But that's not because I'm cheap or because I'm "good" that's just because tables just aren't valuable enough for me to ever spend that much on them. I've never looked at a table and though "I would prefer that to a beach vacation in the dead of winter."
You just need to figure out what a better table is worth to you. Is it worth $200 and waiting to find the right one on Craigslist? Is it worth custom ordering a $10000 piece from a high end furniture making artisan? Is it worth ordering a $1000 dining set from Ikea?
I don't know. It's up to you to decide what value having a good, functional table is for you. But don't cloud the equation with nonsense guilt about the mistake you made buying the original table or some misplaced sense of shame about spending money.
And DEFINITELY don't get into the habit of "well if he's going to spend on clubs, I get to justify spending on a table." That is pure consumerist justification.
A new table is either worth spending on compare to a crappy free table you hate or it isn't. There's no morality or guilt involved, it's a basic financial value assessment. What would you be willing to pay for a good table vs a free crappy table.
Answer that question and then act accordingly.
Shame and guilt are feelings that should only be reserved for when someone gets hurt by your actions (including yourself). Otherwise feeling them is some weird narcissistic, self flagellating shit that just pointlessly makes your life worse for no reason.
Remember, you were the one who decided to focus on saving money in the first place. It makes no sense to feel guilty about modifying a priority that you set for yourself. You're not betraying anyone, you're not breaking any rules. You're just assessing your current situation for the best course of action.
If the best course of action is to keep the crappy table, then keep the crappy table. There might be MUCH better things out there to spend your money on. But keeping the table out of some bizarre self-shaming that doesn't serve anyone's needs is just...well...crazy.
This is a practical decision, not a moral one.
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I very much appreciate your thoughts, and I need to spend some time really dissecting your last post because there's lots of gold in there.
There are a couple of points I should clarify. DH bought this kitchen set ten years before we met. He also had some other nice (but ugly IMO) living room furniture that he ditched when we moved in together. I loved his bedroom set and we kept that.
For whatever reason, he is attached to that kitchen set. We've talked about replacing it for years but nothing ever happens because I'm cheap and he thinks it's perfectly fine....so stalemate. He loves the big, comfy rolling chairs that always end up being in the way and slowing me down. So part of the problem is that I don't want to unilaterally change something just because it doesn't work for ME.
After this discussion, I'm thinking about refinishing the wood to a darker color (I'm not a fan of orange-y oak tones), reupholstering the chairs, and using it in the basement as a game table. It would work great for that.
DH lit up when I suggested that. He smiled and said he might start eating his breakfast in the basement. What a dork.
Also, his joke about me buying a table since he was buying golf clubs was his way of being funny in a "making fun of the stereotypical gender roles" sort of way. We have never had a tit for tat approach. For the most part, we've been minimalists and on the same page about spending/consuming.
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Lol. Yep, asi said, these things are always nuanced. But again, it's important to separate out those very rational factors from the vague, weird guilt/shame associated with spending.
Your DH loving his table is a legit reason to keep it, but it's totally irrelevant as to whether or not it would be okay to spend on a table. You could feel 100% comfortable with spending thousands on a new table and still decide to stick with the old one to make your partner happy. They're separate factors.
I'm so happy to hear you might be able to refinish and repurpose the table if he loves it. It sounds like a great way for both of you to be happy.
Now to figure out how much, if anything, you want to spend on a new table and chairs.
Just FYI, used tables are about the BEST value out there. People are always replacing them because they're an item that frequently is the wrong size if someone moves. If you are comfortable with refinishing, you can get a set that would easily cost thousands to buy new for next to nothing, often for actually nothing if they need refinishing.
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I ordered a new set last night. It was a bit impetuous, but we both like it. The chairs aren't rolly or as comfy as the old ones but DH agreed it would fit the space (and style) of our house better.
Waiting for a used set that we both liked...and dealing with strangers and asking for dimensions, condition, borrowing a truck, hauling it away, etc. would mean that it would be put off indefinitely. And I'm on a mission to die with zero...ha!
I appreciate your help in getting me to dig deeper. It has sparked some interesting conversations with DH as well. He jokingly asked ME to hit submit to buy his clubs. So I asked him "What exactly is holding you back?" ; )
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Waiting for a used set that we both liked...and dealing with strangers and asking for dimensions, condition, borrowing a truck, hauling it away, etc. would mean that it would be put off indefinitely. And I'm on a mission to die with zero...ha!
The goal should be to be happy in life* not to die with zero :-)
happy in life*: done responsibly and without undo harm to others etc...
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Waiting for a used set that we both liked...and dealing with strangers and asking for dimensions, condition, borrowing a truck, hauling it away, etc. would mean that it would be put off indefinitely. And I'm on a mission to die with zero...ha!
The goal should be to be happy in life* not to die with zero :-)
happy in life*: done responsibly and without undo harm to others etc...
I'm not even sure how one guarantees they die with zero outside of spending down all assets and living off social security in old age?
Maybe I should read that book also.
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It's more of a mindset than anything else. The goal is to have maximum "experience points" and realize when you should be spending down the stash. It's impossible to make it to exactly zero, but the point is to be intentional when spending as you are when you're accumulating. The older you get the less time and health and interest you have in spending. If you die with millions you LOST the game since you wasted too much time and energy working to accumulate.
The book was a bit of a wakeup call to me since I've never considered dying with money to be a negative thing. It helped me realize that it's better to give to charities and friends and family members before I die so they can use the money when it can actually benefit their lives. I recommend the book. It would have been even more helpful if I'd read it at age 40 instead of age 60.
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Here's the thing, there's nothing saintly about being cheap. There's no medal for putting up with a crappy table.
Okay, being a smartass here - it's really easy to make up a "CRAPPY TABLE" medal these days...
http://www.getamedal.com/index.php
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Here's the thing, there's nothing saintly about being cheap. There's no medal for putting up with a crappy table.
Okay, being a smartass here - it's really easy to make up a "CRAPPY TABLE" medal these days...
http://www.getamedal.com/index.php
If you have to make your own medal though...
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Here's the thing, there's nothing saintly about being cheap. There's no medal for putting up with a crappy table.
Okay, being a smartass here - it's really easy to make up a "CRAPPY TABLE" medal these days...
http://www.getamedal.com/index.php
If you have to make your own medal though...
Where I work we can create digital medals to give to each other for...whatever reasons.
Both HR and management encourage us to use this system to reward and recognize employees for hard work. They used to give people physical medals but figured out the digital medals are cheaper.
I'm not sure it has the same psychological benefit HR seems to think it does...but I suddenly have an urge to give one of my coworkers a medal for 'crappy table' and watch their confusion.
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It's been a minute since I last updated. We've been busy...and not so much in the fun way.
Both of our living parents have been going through fairly serious health problems that involve a fair amount of out of state travel to help out. One parent is in their 90s and seems to be declining relatively quickly. We've also had to kick in funds to help support that parent (and expect that to continue until they pass). It's hard to know how long they will be with us, but I'm glad to have the funds to be able to help out. FatFIRE for the win.
At the same time, our long term tenants announced that they were moving out. After much debate we decided to sell our rental and not do a 1031 exchange as I had always planned to do. Die With Zero and a bunch of forum members helped me come to the conclusion that simplifying life was more important than optimizing tax consequences this year.
Selling this property (which should net us around $410k after renovations and expenses) will likely result in a $50k tax bill (which includes the loss of ACA credits for 2023). The month of May was crazy, but we are officially under contract and crossing our fingers until it settles.
Both of these stressors have taken a bit of a toll on our relationship. We are bickering (which we rarely do), and we need to fix that asap. I'm hoping the sale of the rental will take off some of the pressure. If not, we will need to invest in counseling to help us deal with the challenges we're facing with our ailing parents and help us reset back to our normally peaceful marriage.
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You deserve a word of encouragement: gogogogogogogogogogo @Omy!
I think you are making the right choice to sell the rental. As you are already at FF, you could put it all in fixed income and armor plate your portfolio. Perhaps "NVG"? That is a closed end fund invested in AMT free municipals. Bullet proof against default risk and yields almost 4.5% fed tax exempt? Profit of 350,000 would produce annual tax exempt income of $15,575. And it pays distribution monthly!
Hope you find a good counselor.
Oh and: gogogogogogogogogo!
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Thanks for the encouragement...and thanks for the recommendation!
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What a difference a month makes!
Sold the rental house last week so that's a huge relief.
One parent is recovering nicely. The other parent is still declining, but we have a lot more help so that has taken some pressure off.
Checked our financials and we've had a surprising recovery from the lows we experienced last year. That gave us a nice little morale boost.
Overall things are moving in the right direction and the bickering has stopped (thank GAWD!) It's so much more fun to talk about our next vacation than about stressful crap!
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Yay!
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Just dropped in after long absence. @Omy, congrats on kitchen table, selling the house, and so on. Best wishes with your parents. :)
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Thanks for checking in!
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I had an epiphany this weekend when a forum member posted this little nugget:
https://www.madfientist.com/i-will-teach-you-to-be-rich-interview/
I also plan to read Die with Zero by Bill Perkins and am posting here to keep myself accountable.
We were quite good at accumulation, and have spent 3.5 years post FIRE keeping our expenses at an infinitely sustainable 0-1% SWR.
We have basically lived off our rental income and not spent a lot more than that due to covid slowing down our travel plans.
Two of the practices I am putting in place:
1) Spend A LOT more money on travel, hobbies, exploring interests, and having meaningful experiences.
2) Stop looking for the best deal and be more concerned with getting great quality. I do this subconsciously and need to break this habit.
Quoting myself is weird, but I decided to go back a page or two to remind myself of what was going on before the whirlwind of stuff in the past couple of months.
I have made zero progress on this goal. I need to work harder at enjoying our retirement and spending more $$.
I have been thinking about it a lot, though. Last night I realized that even though I still like my 14 year old car, we could replace both cars NOW and it wouldn't even make a dent. Then I started looking for a new EV to go with our future new hybrid, and started by googling "best value EV". I can't be like a normal person and just pick a cute car - I have to analyze, find a good deal, make sure the car qualifies for the tax credit, negotiate, etc.
I seriously need to fix this compulsive need to optimize every decision. I've improved, but it seems that I keep reverting back to this behavior. I also realized that with few exceptions our annual spend has been $40-$50k for the past 20 years. We can afford to splurge a lot more, but we just don't. So I'm re-highlighting my older post for accountability and reflection.
Edited to add:
I reread all of the great advice after that earlier post of mine and am re-inspired to make progress on my goal of living optimally instead of focusing on optimizing every financial decision.
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It seems as if a lot of long-term FIREd people have this problem. MMM's newest post about buying a Tesla was about this same issue:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2023/04/27/why-buy-model-y/
He took a lot of heat for that one, but I think it's a real dilemma. The habit of optimizing every financial decision is tough to shake, even after you have so much money that it no longer makes sense. The idea of setting up a dedicated "splurge" account sounds like it could be a good antidote to excessively frugal habits.
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Thanks for the link. I had browsed the article quickly when it first posted, but upon rereading it was as if he was speaking directly to me!
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@FireLane OK that article was giving me the "heebiejeebies"!
I too have been trying my best to splurge a little (New SUV in 2021, High precision lathe and milling machine at the end of last year that cost more than my first house!)
But large one time purchases has still not caused to me to not look at the menu prices, shop for the best deals on medications by shipping from overseas.. One of DW's inhalers costs $300 for a months supply in the US.. I don't freaking think so pal!.. Oh $90 for three of the same thing.. Thankyou!
Besides if our "income" rises above $32,000/year we will start to lose the $1600/month Healthcare subsidy courtesy of the US taxpayer!.. Just sub-optimal!
I am now forced to shell out over $1000 for my MIL's septic tank location and pump.. This annoys me no end partly because she is the worst narcissist on Planet Earth.. But the shitshow (hah) that will happen if we don't get the horrendously overdue tank pumped will make this expenditure pale in comparison.
And what if we BOTH need long term care?.. That will $1M+ easily... So clearly our $4M NW is nowhere near enough to start splurging..;)
Update:.. I just turned on the AC though, cus I can afford it..:)
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Sadly, we lost our declining parent a little over a week ago. It was an amazingly peaceful passing at their home. We had the viewing and service 3 days later. I'm very happy to say I won't be posting in the "Inheritance Drama" thread. All went pretty well and while it's sad, there's also a sense of relief. We've had months to prepare emotionally for this, so I think a lot of the grief has already been processed.
Getting the rental sold and caregiving has occupied much of the last 4 months, so we made a list of all the things we've put off and are starting to check stuff off. I'm super excited about renewing our passports which expired during covid. 10-13 weeks from now (does it seriously take that long?), we'll be able to leave the country again. In the meantime, we plan to continue the car search and do some US travel.
I almost forgot to mention why I posted today:
We just passed our 4 year FIRE-versary. It's amazing how the time has flown and the stash has grown...and how it also feels like we retired ages ago. Looking forward to year 5!
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Congratulations, @Omy! You’re adding new meaning to the phrase “One More Year.”
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Thanks!
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Just updating to add that a new car became available 3 weeks ago and we jumped. We've already sold the car it replaced at carmax, and we just need to turn in the old tags this week.
The new car is going to work really well for us, and I came to the conclusion that I don't really want to replace the other 14 year old car yet. It's still reliable and is perfect for the times we need two cars.
I've actually wanted to see if we can live with only one car, but DH has always vetoed this idea. We live at least 15 minutes from everything, and there are occasional times when having only one car would be inconvenient. So I'm just not super motivated to have 2 new cars at the same time in case we decide we only need one car at some time in the future.
We're getting used to the new car and are planning a road trip at the end of October...which means we should get our covid and flu boosters soon.
It feels good to be working through the "to do" list that built up while we were focused on family and the sale of our rental...and exciting to finally start making travel plans again.
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Just updating to add that a new car became available 3 weeks ago and we jumped. We've already sold the car it replaced at carmax, and we just need to turn in the old tags this week.
The new car is going to work really well for us, and I came to the conclusion that I don't really want to replace the other 14 year old car yet. It's still reliable and is perfect for the times we need two cars.
I've actually wanted to see if we can live with only one car, but DH has always vetoed this idea. We live at least 15 minutes from everything, and there are occasional times when having only one car would be inconvenient. So I'm just not super motivated to have 2 new cars at the same time in case we decide we only need one car at some time in the future.
We're getting used to the new car and are planning a road trip at the end of October...which means we should get our covid and flu boosters soon.
It feels good to be working through the "to do" list that built up while we were focused on family and the sale of our rental...and exciting to finally start making travel plans again.
Is it a gasoline-powered car?
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I really wanted electric, but we decided on a hybrid since this is going to be our road trip car (and I didn't want to spend our trips trying to map out charging stations). We tend to drive more than 300 miles per day when trying to get to a more interesting location. If/when we replace our 14 year old hybrid, it will definitely be with an EV. Our hope is that EV range and charging infrastructure will both improve significantly in the next few years.
The good news is that we've likely just sold our last gas guzzler.
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I really wanted electric, but we decided on a hybrid since this is going to be our road trip car (and I didn't want to spend our trips trying to map out charging stations). We tend to drive more than 300 miles per day when trying to get to a more interesting location. If/when we replace our 14 year old hybrid, it will definitely be with an EV. Our hope is that EV range and charging infrastructure will both improve significantly in the next few years.
The good news is that we've likely just sold our last gas guzzler.
I also have a 14 years old car and is thinking to replace it. We had some unexpected repair early this year for about $5,600. Since I am retired, we need a new car for our road travels around the U.S. and Canada, I have not been able to decide what car to buy. We want to do a coast to coast road in the U.S. and drive to Alaska, although I have been to all 50 U.S. states already. Electrical cars are not good for this type of driving, but I am also worried about the future of gas cars.
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Got our Pfizer covid boosters 2 days ago and our passports came in yesterday. Off to the races!
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It's been a minute since my last update so here's a quick one.
We took a 10 day road trip with the new car in November. We did lots of socializing and had a nice mix of family and other random fun. Now we're back in town getting ready for the holidays since we'll be hosting Christmas this year.
We re-enrolled during ACA open enrollment. Our rental house sale killed our subsidies for 2023, but we will be getting a nice subsidy in 2024 (unless we impulsively sell our other rental property next year).
We've scheduled a nice 2 week vacation in January to a warm destination that requires passports (yay!) We are counting the days and trying to avoid covid before then (which will be tricky since we plan to have a lot of people in our house in late December.) Hopefully the boosters protect us because we've become very relaxed about masking and exposing ourselves to people. Life is starting to feel somewhat normal again.
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Our Christmas plans got canceled, and we've been very low key for the past month...and DH got covid anyway. We have NO idea where because we were careful. He tested positive 2 days before our vacation, so we canceled our plans. Yay for travel insurance - I've never purchased it before, but was glad we did for this trip.
I'm starting to have symptoms but am currently negative. Here's hoping that our 6 jabs keep our cases relatively mild.
I had such high hopes for 2024...
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Speedy recovery & restored health to you both!! Glad you had the insurance, probably a good idea in the pandemic era now that you mention it.
Rest like it’s a paid gig. Apparently it really helps mitigate lingering issues.
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I don't believe in travel insurance as a rule, but covid and the risk of a snowstorm screwing things up and being older in general I talked myself into it. A shocking number of people told us to put on a mask and go anyway. I'm now in the thick of it. There's no way I'd want to be in a foreign country if this goes sideways.
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It's probably obvious that we survived covid. DH was through it in 10 days. I had 3 crappy days, a week of bad cold symptoms, and another 10 days of feeling run down. I'm now back to 100% (or as close as that gets in your 60s.)
We took a mini-vacation last week to have a change of view after being cooped up in the house for most of January. We weren't shy about being around people. Hopefully we don't pay for it with another virus.
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I don't believe in travel insurance as a rule, but covid and the risk of a snowstorm screwing things up and being older in general I talked myself into it. A shocking number of people told us to put on a mask and go anyway. I'm now in the thick of it. There's no way I'd want to be in a foreign country if this goes sideways.
Depends on the country. In the UK, emergency and primary care is provided for visitors at no charge. In a number of Asian countries, HC is so cheap I'd argue its just not worth protecting against.
I'd be more interested in the trip protection my IHG card provides (Make sure all your travel, accommodation and car rental is paid for with the card.. I.e if you get sick and can't travel back home then in theory the IHG card will pick up the extra cost.
Up until age 60 I did buy travel insurance.. Then the rates skyrocketed, presumably due to age. Since then I have only been back to the UK and didn't bother.. At least the ambulance ride and ER (called A&E) room part is free, don't know if the subsequent stay in the ICU would be covered as it depends on what definition of "emergency" is.
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I definitely need to check the small print on our credit cards regarding all of this...thanks for the info!
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Our Christmas plans got canceled, and we've been very low key for the past month...and DH got covid anyway. We have NO idea where because we were careful. He tested positive 2 days before our vacation, so we canceled our plans. Yay for travel insurance - I've never purchased it before, but was glad we did for this trip.
I'm starting to have symptoms but am currently negative. Here's hoping that our 6 jabs keep our cases relatively mild.
I had such high hopes for 2024...
I thought if we got the jabs we were immune to it? Sounds like a big fat no. I don't think I'll be getting those injections again.
Anyway, the reason I posted here was to encourage you, OP, to remember the fact that the whole purpose of retirement is the relief. So early retirement, is early relief (in theory). You finish sooner, and thereby massively expand your period of "doing whatever you want" while still in younger, healthier, more capable years. In short, begin TRULY enjoying life as quickly as possible, while remaining financially solvent.
If things like a 2 brand new cars wouldn't even put the tiniest dent in your income/planning, why so much anxiety? I mean, I understand WHY - but ask yourself that question.... WHY?
Are you worried you'll run out of money? Are you stuck in the mindset of minimizing all costs to such an extreme that it's become an unbreakable habit? (this happens much more than you may think)
Maybe you need to recalibrate. Pretend you never FIRED... Pretend you are a person with no job, and you are going to look for a job - but first - you're going to perform a complete audit of your finances and discover, HOLY SH!T...... I don't even need to find a job! In fact, I can live REALLY well without EVER having to work again! AS long as I'm not totally irrational and irresponsible with my spending, I can very easily have no financial worry again and never even need to consider employment for any reason whatsoever...
Could this help? Changing your mindset by starting blank and pretending to surprise yourself and then just letting things roll from that point forward? Excited, happy, finally relaxed & relieved with the absolute knowing & understanding that money is literally a non-issue for your desired lifestyle?
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I don't have financial anxiety...just a financial optimization habit I'm trying to break.
One approach I'm going to try is to spend an additional $3k per month on discretionary spending this year. I'd love to improve our deck and landscaping and go on monthly vacations (some shorter getaways and some longer excursions.)
As for covid, I will keep taking the boosters. It kept us from getting serious cases and that's a win in my book.
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I don't have financial anxiety...just a financial optimization habit I'm trying to break.
One approach I'm going to try is to spend an additional $3k per month on discretionary spending this year. I'd love to improve our deck and landscaping and go on monthly vacations (some shorter getaways and some longer excursions.)
As for covid, I will keep taking the boosters. It kept us from getting serious cases and that's a win in my book.
Ahhh, ok. My apology for interpreting that wrong. On your first post you said:
"When I look at it objectively, I know we are FI. We've been FI for years. But pulling the trigger to RE causes me a lot of anxiety. Especially about health insurance premium costs and no clue where that mess is heading.
I came to you Post Fire experts to ask for advice on how to gain the confidence needed to pull the trigger. I know the math gives us next to zero chance of failure, but anxiety is winning over math."
I thought that was part of the issue. My bad.
On the other hand I like your approach/idea about the $3k discretionary spending and more vacations/trips. You owe it to yourself for the hard work that FIRED requires, IMHO... I see it as being the point of it all (if it's affordable and fits your plan). I also understand that some simply want to retire early and live extremely frugally, which is also fine if that's what you're after. I require a bit of both, I have a hard time being overly-frugal but I'm not definitely not a "big spender" to say the least.
I hope this year ends up being good for you guys.
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That explains it...that first post was from November 2018.
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I don't have financial anxiety...just a financial optimization habit I'm trying to break.
One approach I'm going to try is to spend an additional $3k per month on discretionary spending this year. I'd love to improve our deck and landscaping and go on monthly vacations (some shorter getaways and some longer excursions.)
As for covid, I will keep taking the boosters. It kept us from getting serious cases and that's a win in my book.
I’m so glad to hear you weren’t hard hit. Few vaccine programs have to contend with anything that is so widespread & constant or mutates so much & so fast (because it’s widespread & constant.) Given that the vaccine decreases the odds of short & long term disability as well as severity while ill, yes, it’s very worthwhile.
Were you planning to see more places or revisit favorites? Some of the luxury rail is starting to look really good, frankly, if the cash isn’t a hurdle. It seems like you’d be less likely to catch everyone’s diseases if you’re only sharing air with your train car vs. an entire jetliner. Driving on road trips gets old fast when it’s frequent.
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Completely agree that the vaccines are worth it.
I also LOVE the idea of traveling by train. I want to minimize plane travel so that's a great suggestion.
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Completely agree that the vaccines are worth it.
I also LOVE the idea of traveling by train. I want to minimize plane travel so that's a great suggestion.
Fru-Gal did a great thread about it too & I forgot! - https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/i-spent-a-month-traveling-america-with-the-usa-rail-pass!/
I've done some regular rail for short (10-45 minutes) & longer (6 hour) stints, plus one fancier overnight route, & it is by far my preferred way to travel - looking out over wilderness with a book & a mug of tea is very relaxing, plus at least in America, stations are calmer than the over-lit TSA nightmare of most airports. Have not yet used dining cars.
I would like to see green river cruises become an option, too, but we mostly aren't there yet. FIRE's slow travel potential was a big draw for me, swapping "hurry up & get to the fun part" for enjoying the literal journey.
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Another fan of train travel here. I especially love a sleeper (though when I got the train from Washington to Chicago, it meant I did the pretty bit in darkness - oops! Still a good trip though). Haven't yet tried doing that with the kids but there is a sleeper from London to Scotland (which isn't really far enough to need a sleeper, but it's a very civilised way to do the trip - you basically park outside Edinburgh for a few hours so you don't arrive to early, and then on into the Highlands), so I'm keen to try them with that before too long!
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We did the train from Split in Croatia all the way to my Parents place in Skegness, lincs, UK.
The overnight part was from Zagreb to Munich, bit of a shame cus that was through the Alps at night. We stayed in a hotel is Paris for the second night.
It was a cool trip!
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We're mostly done with taxes and missed our estimates by about $12k (in the wrong direction). The rental sale last summer ended up having around $62k in tax and ACA consequences instead of $50k as I had guessed last year. I was almost spot on for federal, but blew it on state. Oh well.
The good news is that our net worth is currently at an all time high, so the tax bill seems inconsequential in the big picture. We invested the majority of the rental proceeds - which should net us more than the rental did annually without the headaches.
Last summer we also stopped re-investing dividends and capital gains in all of our taxable accounts...and instead send them to our checking account. It's fun to get surprise deposits quarterly (that more than cover the income lossed from selling the rental).
Selling that rental was AMAZING - no regrets. Last year I was fussing over whether or not to do a 1031 exchange and I'm perfectly fine that we chose not to the thing that would be optimal for taxes. Simplifying life was worth the cost.
We're looking forward to selling our other rental when that wonderful tenant leaves - which will likely be 2+ years from now. I could imagine doing a 1031 exchange on that one if the planets align perfectly. If we do that it would be to find our perfect downsize home, rent it out for 2 or 3 years, then move in and live there until we're wheeled out.