Author Topic: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?  (Read 20510 times)

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2020, 10:48:13 AM »
Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson.... is actually a Cus D'Amato line- Tyson's trainer/adopted dad

THIS. While I can appreciate the optimism shown in this thread (but lo, some of the poats haven't aged very well), this thing is going to be around for a while yet, and we're likely to see another surge in deaths from premature re-openings in many states, and in the Fall in general. Many, many, many businesses will not survive. Debt loads worldwide are astronomical, and this Black Swan is laying that sad truth bare, while at the same time our government is adding trillions to the national debt. The politicians can cheerlead getting back to normal and opening businesses all they want -- but people value their lives and they won't be rushing back to restaurants and shopping malls any time soon when fatalities are piling up. And as medical personnel on the front lines continue falling victim and their bodies start to pile up, who is going to replace them? This ain't 2008. People's fears are not misplaced -- we're in for a lot more hurt.

Yes, agreed. As a student of history the first wave is not always the hardest hitting. It is sobering to think we can hardly handle pandemics any better than they did during WWI. Our effective collective memory seems to be limited to a single generation.

sui generis

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #101 on: May 08, 2020, 07:45:20 AM »
Much of the above very fortunate and true. Except possibly ability to get a job, which I've always wondered if FIREes have overestimated. My NYT headline tells me this morning that unemployment has hit nearly 15%. Do you really think you'll be a competitive choice for a grocery store clerk in those kind of conditions? The problem is, FIREes don't need jobs until 20 million other Americans also do, which is of course the worst possible time to try to find a job.

Speaking of the NYT headline, it references the great depression for context. My CFireSim numbers always had me surviving the great depression with my withdrawal rate, and of course without any modifications to that withdrawal rate, but it's certainly a bad sign that something we hoped would never happen again may be here, less than 2 years into my own FIRE, the granddaddy of bad SORR luck.  FWIW, nearly 20% of my budget is for travel and I won't be using nearly any of that this year, it looks like. And probably less then I anticipated in the following year or more as well, so hopefully that's a helpful corrective.

MKinVA

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #102 on: May 08, 2020, 07:56:04 AM »
I am also 2 plus years into FIRE and although I am not panicking and don't plan to sell out of the market, I am wondering if I should turn off the reinvestment of dividends tool on my accounts. Mark Cuban was interviewed yesterday on MSNBC (can't find a link) and he is hoarding cash in the assumption that the market will take a deep dive when the reality of job losses hits home.

Mr. Green

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #103 on: May 08, 2020, 08:32:09 AM »
It's been such a strange experience, weathering this pandemic. I am hugely thankful that we are FIRE because I used to work in an office environment that was like a bullpen and known for having employees not stay home when sick. The quarantine effort has significantly depressed our spending. An interesting take is that we're kinda getting a glimpse at what "bare bones" spending would look like in the event of poor portfolio performance and we were trying to reduce the damage.

One thing that is fascinating to me is the market's reaction to the pandemic. We had that big drop but then a big recovery despite the fact that economic data gets worse every day. The market doesn't have to be rational, of course, and it seems an expedient recovery has been priced in. I would agree that there's definitely still a lot of hurt left to go.

We have been fortunate that w couple unexpected property sales in the last couple years padded our stash to where we were up to almost 40x annual expenses before the drop. So even when the market was at the most recent bottom we were still above 25x expenses. Who knows if I would be as comfortable with things if that weren't the case? I'd like to think so but who knows?

Another thing that I think has had a big impact is that we're living in an area that is amazingly temperate. It's easier to weather stay-at-home orders when you step outside more often than not and marvel at how it feels like paradise, not too hot and not too cold. I couldn't imagine being stuck indoors during all this because I lived somewhere super cold.

We haven't adjusted our AA at all other than moving a little money in our brokerage account to cash in case we decide to buy a house in the near future. With everything going on a good deal may pop up. I don't really look at the market much any more with respect to our portfolio. I trust the math and our personal flexibility and tenacity so that allows me to be pretty carefree about the money.

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2020, 07:52:13 AM »

Another thing that I think has had a big impact is that we're living in an area that is amazingly temperate. It's easier to weather stay-at-home orders when you step outside more often than not and marvel at how it feels like paradise, not too hot and not too cold. I couldn't imagine being stuck indoors during all this because I lived somewhere super cold.


Completely agree.  We've had a mix of warm and cold, wet and dry over the past couple months and the difference between them is remarkable.  We always laughed in the past on nice days how we'd always drop any plans we'd have because we just preferred the porch/yard anyway and didn't want to go anywhere...during this we've really learned to appreciate it.

ShastaFire

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2020, 10:54:30 AM »
It's been such a strange experience, weathering this pandemic. I am hugely thankful that we are FIRE because I used to work in an office environment that was like a bullpen and known for having employees not stay home when sick. The quarantine effort has significantly depressed our spending. An interesting take is that we're kinda getting a glimpse at what "bare bones" spending would look like in the event of poor portfolio performance and we were trying to reduce the damage.

One thing that is fascinating to me is the market's reaction to the pandemic. We had that big drop but then a big recovery despite the fact that economic data gets worse every day. The market doesn't have to be rational, of course, and it seems an expedient recovery has been priced in. I would agree that there's definitely still a lot of hurt left to go.

We have been fortunate that w couple unexpected property sales in the last couple years padded our stash to where we were up to almost 40x annual expenses before the drop. So even when the market was at the most recent bottom we were still above 25x expenses. Who knows if I would be as comfortable with things if that weren't the case? I'd like to think so but who knows?

Another thing that I think has had a big impact is that we're living in an area that is amazingly temperate. It's easier to weather stay-at-home orders when you step outside more often than not and marvel at how it feels like paradise, not too hot and not too cold. I couldn't imagine being stuck indoors during all this because I lived somewhere super cold.

We haven't adjusted our AA at all other than moving a little money in our brokerage account to cash in case we decide to buy a house in the near future. With everything going on a good deal may pop up. I don't really look at the market much any more with respect to our portfolio. I trust the math and our personal flexibility and tenacity so that allows me to be pretty carefree about the money.

Good points.  I live in a midwestern state and daily I'm thankful that it's not January.  Being outside now in the sun (without 10 minutes of putting on winter layers) is very helpful for my mind.  We didn't adjust our AA either and were still above 25x, so I'm glad with how things are coming out so far.  Who knows if that will change, as mentioned.  Lastly, our spending has dropped by 43% since mid-March.  We could go further without feeling too badly of a pinch.  I'm grateful and a little appalled...
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 10:56:13 AM by ShastaFire »

Missy B

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #106 on: June 03, 2020, 05:44:33 PM »
Much of the above very fortunate and true. Except possibly ability to get a job, which I've always wondered if FIREes have overestimated. My NYT headline tells me this morning that unemployment has hit nearly 15%. Do you really think you'll be a competitive choice for a grocery store clerk in those kind of conditions? The problem is, FIREes don't need jobs until 20 million other Americans also do, which is of course the worst possible time to try to find a job.

I wonder the same thing about people overestimating their employability. People on the boards here generally seem very certain that they'll be able to get a minimum wage job for whatever hours they need, and I think some have forgotten -- or perhaps never knew in the first place -- how very difficult it can be to get one of those minimum wage jobs in a deep recession when everybody is looking for work. I think people's attitude is colored by living during good times when entry level jobs are plentiful.

I think the optimism is far healthier than worry, but it may not represent reality.

Nords

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #107 on: June 03, 2020, 06:10:34 PM »
People on the boards here generally seem very certain that they'll be able to get a minimum wage job for whatever hours they need, and I think some have forgotten -- or perhaps never knew in the first place -- how very difficult it can be to get one of those minimum wage jobs in a deep recession when everybody is looking for work. I think people's attitude is colored by living during good times when entry level jobs are plentiful.

I think the optimism is far healthier than worry, but it may not represent reality.
If you're financially independent, you don't need (let alone want) a minimum-wage job.  Everybody else wants those jobs for the healthcare and unemployment benefits (such as they are) and the living wage.  People seeking minimum-wage jobs might not have much in savings and might only have a month or two of runway.

Meanwhile FI people only need to add a little breathing room to their portfolio to survive the recession, and they may only need less than $10K/year (less than $1000 per month). 

Instead, FI people want part-time work or entrepreneurial labor or something on the gig economy.  Nobody wants those jobs during a recession because they don't have benefits.  Meanwhile employers need part-time labor (especially if it's without benefits) to cover the gaps that they can't afford to hire for full-time employees.`

For example my Plan B is handyman (both home & appliance repair).  Another plan is arbitraging aloha shirts between our local thrift stores and eBay.  A third plan is helping out at a tutoring center (for part-time wages).  A fourth plan is building a blog around portfolio survival during recessions (which should get a lot of traffic during recessions).

I know all of those will work from personal experience or from crunching the numbers.  If it gets really ugly then I'll spend a day paddling a standup board a quarter-mile off the beach with a fishing pole and bag to hold my catch.

Nords

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #108 on: June 03, 2020, 11:49:55 PM »
Or, you know, giving surf lessons. Apparently @Exflyboy is a fan of your teaching!
I really enjoy teaching friends how to surf, and money would just ruin the whole thing. 

People would put a lot of pressure on themselves (because they'd be paying money) and they'd be demanding even more in their expectations of the instruction.  As it is, we just go out there and have fun for free.

My favorite surf break, White Plains Beach, is federal property.  It's the best teaching break on the island but the Navy won't allow people to charge for lessons due to liability concerns.  The lifeguards (federal employees) do it through MWR for $35. 

Last year we had a ChooseFI Honolulu meetup at WPB, and I was teaching people how to surf.  Someone else on the beach (not from our group) saw me giving the lessons and (while I was out on the water) they walked over to the lifeguard tower and asked the lifeguard where to sign up for their lessons from me.  The lifeguard thought I was teaching for pay and... well... confusion & hilarity ensued.  And then the lifeguard ended up telling the other person that they didn't have a lifeguard surf instructor available that day.

Now all of the lifeguards know who I am and why I teach people how to surf.  But none of the lifeguards seem interested in FI.

I don't know what I'd do but I have some very practical skills that I might be able to use. However, as a pretty long term retiree, I can't imagine anything could crop up now that I couldn't ride out by tweaking the lifestyle a bit here and there. So unlikely.I'd have to get a job.
The economy would have to be in an apocalyptic depression!

FIRE 20/20

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Re: Post-FIRE folks: how are you handling the market downturn?
« Reply #109 on: June 04, 2020, 11:01:44 AM »
Much of the above very fortunate and true. Except possibly ability to get a job, which I've always wondered if FIREes have overestimated. My NYT headline tells me this morning that unemployment has hit nearly 15%. Do you really think you'll be a competitive choice for a grocery store clerk in those kind of conditions? The problem is, FIREes don't need jobs until 20 million other Americans also do, which is of course the worst possible time to try to find a job.

I wonder the same thing about people overestimating their employability. People on the boards here generally seem very certain that they'll be able to get a minimum wage job for whatever hours they need, and I think some have forgotten -- or perhaps never knew in the first place -- how very difficult it can be to get one of those minimum wage jobs in a deep recession when everybody is looking for work. I think people's attitude is colored by living during good times when entry level jobs are plentiful.

I think the optimism is far healthier than worry, but it may not represent reality.

Except that a FIREe doesn't need to get a job during the time of low unemployment; they can wait until the employment market picks up again.  The average downturn is approximately 3 years.  While unemployment doesn't track that precisely, a quick glance at U.S. unemployment over time (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate) shows that the economy doesn't spend very much time above 6% unemployment.  There was a ~11 years or so year period from about 1976-1987, and another ~6 year period from 2008-2014.  Other than those 2 periods, the U.S. economy has rarely been above 6% for very long and when it did ('91-94) it's rarely gone very far above 6%.  Even with a huge crash in the market, anyone who has saved at least 25x expenses should easily be able to cut expenses and ride out the poor economy and, in the worst cases, pick up work after things get back to normal. 

When you put together all of the various approaches people take, it's hard to see how a period of high unemployment hurts someone who's FIREd but needs to work a bit to recover from a drop in their 'stache.  I spent a lot of time on the 2018, 2019, and 2020 cohort threads as my date approached, and I can only remember a tiny fraction of people who *only* saved 25x of their lean expenses and thought they didn't have much risk.  Most people used most of the usual risk mitigation approaches:

1.  Save more than 25x of their planned expenses
2.  Have a pension and/or Social Security in addition to a 25x 'stache (i.e. ignored that value and used it as a safety margin)
3.  Planned expenses can be cut - often substantially
4.  Skills that could be used in the gig economy to generate a small amount of income (as @Nords correctly stated, less than $10k/ year provides a huge boost)
5.  An ability to go back to work - even if they have to wait 5 years or more for the labor markets to improve. 

My totally unscientific gut feeling from reading other people's plans suggests that most people are using not just one but most or all of the approaches above.  I saved closer to 33x planned expenses, have a substantial amount I could cut from my budget without any problem, ignored S.S., and ignored my pension.  23 years after FIRE my pension and S.S. - even if they only pay out 70% of their supposed benefits - should cover all of my minimum expenses and more. 

One of the stereotypes of the FIRE movement is that people blindly save 25x their expenses and then stupidly spend that without concern as markets drop.  I don't think any such people exist.  Sure, some just save 25x or less, but they generally jump in with eyes wide open.  Maybe it's bluster, but I don't think it usually is.  More often than that, most people that I've followed from the recent cohorts have back-up plan on top of back-up plan.