Post FIRE Backup plans

[tooqk4u22]

We all talk about back up plans for FIRE but more a lot of times in a general sense of "I will go back to work" or "move to cheaper location" but who has specific redundancies?   On another thread, @Omy posted the following...

We FIREd in 2019 and have backup plans to our backup plans.

1) We have rental income that pays most of our bills.
2) We have an annuity that will replace the rental income when we're done being landlords. The annuity income will be doubled for up to 5 years if one of us should become unable to perform 2 of the 5 activities of daily living.
3) We have dividend income.
4) We have occasional passive income from my previous line of work.
5) We have social security that could start in as little as 2 years (but we plan to wait 5-7 years).
6) We have a good chunk in the stock market.
7) We have several years of cash on hand.
8) We can sell our house or get a reverse mortgage in our later years.
9) We can go back to work if enough of these other layers of protection fail.
10) We are likely to see a low 6 figure inheritance in the next decade.

We are regularly looking for ways to optimize our financial situation and can easily tighten the belt should we need to. I have been gently face punched for my contingency plans having so many contingency plans, but this approach has kept me from worrying about the stock market.

I probably have to think a bit about mine but they include in no particular order.....

1.   Kids are getting older and will be aging out of travel sports and other activities that foenall three are around $11k a year.
2.  Paid off house
3.  HSA accounts and "Slush fund" accounts for repairs, replacement, and travel that are about 10% of invested assets and are not included in FIRE values.
4. Significant funds set aside for college that could be sub with loans if needed.
5.  Start with 3.25-3.5% wr....oops already used this card as wr is now closer to 4%.
6.  Social security and Medicare, a bit off in the future though.

I would love to add a geoarbitrage but we don't have a location actually identified so it doesn't count...

So what are your specific back up plans/enhancements ?

ETA: #6...maybe more later

[curious_george]

I have a gold coin of sufficient size and weight such that I should be able to sell it in a time of need for enough money to buy a one way bus ticket to San Diego, California. I will use whatever is left to buy a tent and set it up on a street opposite the beach such that I have a good view of the sunset. I will spend my remaining days begging for money for food during the day then spending the money on hookers and boos every night. Did I mention I will have an awesome view of the sunset?

If I don't get enough money from begging I will go rob a bank. There will be a 100% chance I will get caught though as I will simply hand the teller a note that it is a robbery and to call 911. I will be unarmed waiting in the lobby when the police show up. I will then spend my remaining days eating prison food and working out and reading anything I can get a hold of from the prison library, if one exists...

Or I could get a job. Idk...I assume most failure scenarios I will see years in advance and could simply go back to work as a truck driver or something. The only failure scenario I can think of where I would not have years of advance notice involves a blinding light and a few seconds where I contemplate why I spent so much of my life saving money before the nuclear blast obliterates the essense of my existence. Maybe I am just optimistic.

[hoodedfalcon]

As someone who is currently taking a sabbatical from work (quit July 2021), I have been following the other thread and I am glad you started this one @tooqk4u22

My happily employed partner and I keep our finances separate so the numbers below reflect my "income" and portion of expenses from Jan-Sept 2022. Other than taking dividends from my taxable brokerage, I haven't dipped into any of my retirement savings, and I've needed less than 3K from my cash stockpile. I wanted to share actual numbers in case it is helpful for anyone. My original plan was to take just a year off work, but at this rate, I can easily wait out the job hunt for another year or two. I don't consider myself FIREd, but I have kept my expenses low, so I have barista FI as an option. I have learned that I LOVE not working, but I want to have more flexibility in spending, so I will probably go back to work for a few years to increase the stash.

Not including the rental, my investments were a tad over $500K in December of 2021, and now they are right around $400K

Source (amount this year)
Tradeline   (1500)
Interest     (144)
Dividends   (726)
Rental Income   (3600)
Consulting with my previous employer    (4296)
CC Rewards    (1094)
Random      (1790)

13150 Total "Income"
   
15,690   Expense through Sept.
   
$2540   Difference covered by cash cushion.

[chevy1956]

Backups in order of importance/effectiveness:-

1. Social Security -  this would cover our living expenses no problem.
2. Sell house and downsize - this is a large pot of money.
3. Charge kids board/have them leave house - just an option.
4. 4 years expenses in bonds/cash
5. Don't spend on large items during downturns/if finances look tight
5. Work - part or full time would make a significant difference.
6. Inheritance - this would be multiples times our current assets. We are poorer than our parents. This is probably the largest item on our list but it's also the least in our control so I chucked this on the last level.

[bryan995]

Not FIRE yet - but here is my current 'contingency plan'.

1.  FAT FIRE budget (can down shift lifestyle if needed, ~4x above a baseline/bare-bones expenses).
2.  Aiming for 3% SWR (~2% SWR buffer before risks increase) - if I spend less then the target FAT budget, then SWR could hit sub 2%.
3.  Fixing as many costs as possible (EVs, solar, home battery, CA prop13 RE-tax).
3.  Multiple streams of rental income (aim to cover 25-50% of FIRE budget).
4.  Preemptively doing repairs/maintenance/remodels (FIRE start will coincide with large-project completion) - pushing out major spend 10+ years.
5.  Front-loaded 3 x 529 ($25k each) - aiming to pay for in-state school after 18 years of tax-free-growth.
6.  Retiring in VHCOL - providing geo-arbitrage ladder potential (sell/downsize to HCOL -> MCOL -> LCOL).
7.  Will consult the first ~2 years of pre-retirement FIRE to pad budget, establish a route to return to work if needed.
8.  State pension at 65 is gravy.
9.  Social Security at ~70 is gravy.
10.  HSA is gravy.
11.  xMM inheritance in 20-30 years is gravy.


The only issue - need another 3 to 5 to 10 years to get this done :)

Is it a bit much? Maybe. But I am OK with continuing to work - still enjoy it !

[Moustachienne]

I appreciate that other posts are being sensible and are probably helpful for many but...I freakin' loved this take. Thanks!

I have a gold coin of sufficient size and weight such that I should be able to sell it in a time of need for enough money to buy a one way bus ticket to San Diego, California. I will use whatever is left to buy a tent and set it up on a street opposite the beach such that I have a good view of the sunset. I will spend my remaining days begging for money for food during the day then spending the money on hookers and boos every night. Did I mention I will have an awesome view of the sunset?

If I don't get enough money from begging I will go rob a bank. There will be a 100% chance I will get caught though as I will simply hand the teller a note that it is a robbery and to call 911. I will be unarmed waiting in the lobby when the police show up. I will then spend my remaining days eating prison food and working out and reading anything I can get a hold of from the prison library, if one exists...

Or I could get a job. Idk...I assume most failure scenarios I will see years in advance and could simply go back to work as a truck driver or something. The only failure scenario I can think of where I would not have years of advance notice involves a blinding light and a few seconds where I contemplate why I spent so much of my life saving money before the nuclear blast obliterates the essense of my existence. Maybe I am just optimistic.

[Omy]

Yes...I forgot to add "Drink the poisoned koolaid" as the final backup plan.

[jim555]

Retired 8 years now.  Paid off condo and car.  Expenses are low, probably around $16K a year, all inclusive.  Usual plan Bs, take pension early, take Social Security early, get a roommate, get a j*b, move to a lower cost area or country.  Best case is take the pension and and SS as late as possible (health permitting). 

[NotJen]

Not a backup plan, but not having dependents or shared financials gives me more flexibility.

I FIREd or semi-FIREd in Dec 2019 with a plan to WING IT.  So, I'm really good with short-term planning and am super conscientious about money, but I'm really bad about making shit up about the long term (good at knowing what I don't know?).  I decided I'd probably be fine.

The initial plan (that gave me the mental go-ahead to quit before I was 40) was to barista-FIRE, with a buffer before I had to find work.  Then I realized I could get free insurance through the ACA at least in the short term - and for the first time thought that maybe I would never really have to work again.  I quit with no plans to keep up with my career.

However, I have chosen to do summer seasonal work for 2 years because of the non-monetary benefits (living inside a national park).  Then I realized - I've got a new marketable skill AND work history to boot!  If I do *need* to earn money, I can get a local front desk job - probably even management level.  That sounds soul-sucking, so I would really have to need the money.  Or I could even go full nomad and hop from seasonal to seasonal - now that I know I can survive that kind of thing (do not recommend that as a backup plan to anyone who hasn't tried it).

[curious_george]

Yes...I forgot to add "Drink the poisoned koolaid" as the final backup plan.

The koolaid doesn't work.

I do have some other backup plans in addition to the gold coin idea.

-Maintain physical health by running daily, doing strength training every other day, and eating a healthy diet.
-Maintain mental health by reading and learning daily, maintaining relationships, making new friends, reading books, etc.
-Maintaining connections and continue working part time flexible work from home jobs in my previous profession(someone call IRP)
-A 2.5% withdrawal rate and various dividend paying companies such that dividends cover expenses
-Several years worth of I bonds
-I grew up in poverty and homelessness and still maintain the ability to survive in freezing weather outside and can be mostly happy just hanging out at the library. Honestly the idea that I can be happy with next to no material belongings is my main backup plan. Thus the gold coin idea. I spent a lot of time homeless and I think that would be easier in San Diego.

[Morning Glory]

Left work in December 2021 with 25x expenses (close to 100% stock) plus another 50k in cash set aside for a planned house down payment (invested remainder of house sale proceeds because a year ago it would have been really dumb to plan on paying cash for a house). Relocated with the intention of renting for a year then purchasing a house.

Option 1: Delay buying a house and live off cash cushion until stocks recover. We did this for the first 8 months but did not need to use much of the cash because of dividends from our taxable accounts and a large tax refund. Still renting but we are looking for a house (even at today's interest rates..sigh) since spouse got a job anyway.
Option 1.1: Reduce expenses. I would rather eat rice and beans than go back to work right now but spouse was not on the same page about what and how much needed to be cut so he got a job. 

Option 2 (we are currently doing this): Spouse gets a job. He was about as burnt on being a SAHP as I was on working full time. He is happier working in a factory for $22/hr which after inflation almost but not quite covers our total spending.  Brings us down to ~1% WR and having a regular income makes it easier to get a mortgage. He also seems to have better mental health when he has the structure of going to a job every day.

Option 3: I get a PT or temporary job in my field. I'm not ready yet but it makes sense for me to work a little bit to maintain skills, after I've had a year off for my burnout. I transferred my professional license to my current state of residence and will probably look at doing either something very part time/wfh during school hours or a travel contract over next summer (spouse would need to take a leave of absence for the travel contract to work [he and kids would travel with me] but financially it would be worthwhile as I could earn a year worth of spending in 13 weeks plus have living expenses covered).

Option 4: Relocate to vLCOL temporarily or permanently. My mom's town has some pretty nice houses for about $80k. The college town an hour from her is big enough to have the programs my kids need and houses are like $120k there (a basic ranch house in good shape is ~$300k where I live now, for comparison, but I'm also 10 minutes from the beach). We would be able to live on 4% of the new lower stash without husband working, and would likely be able to afford more travel.

Option 5: move to a slightly lower col than where I'm at now and rent for a year before deciding whether to buy there or move on (not ideal because older kid is starting to want stability with school and friends)

Option 6: I take a PT job not in my field (substitute teaching, film extra, whatever).  Can be problematic to find childcare for this option with husband working, but youngest starts kindergarten next year.

Option 7: Relocate to another country. I have UK citizenship and I just read an article about how Americans are moving over there in droves for cheaper housing/free healthcare and pricing out the local people. It might be hard to make friends though if people see me as one of those interlopers. They tend to have better special education programs than you can find in the US for kids with autism so I have thought about it.

Probably more things: retrain to work in another field (not sure what), cc churning (on hold right now because trying to buy house), buy duplex and rent out one side (not in reach if we stay here)

[Omy]

Not a backup plan, but not having dependents or shared financials gives me more flexibility.

We also don't have dependents (yay!), but I look at having a partner as an extra layer of security. Either of us could find a job if something catastrophic happens. It's nice to have someone who has your best interests at heart (less chance of getting scammed as we age). Also, we've saved assuming the nest egg has to take care of both of us indefinitely, but there's a strong probability that there will be only one of us to support in the final years.

[tooqk4u22]

......No debt, no dependents.....

Not a backup plan, but not having dependents or shared financials gives me more flexibility.

We also don't have dependents (yay!), but I look at having a partner as an extra layer of security. Either of us could find a job if something catastrophic happens. It's nice to have someone who has your best interests at heart (less chance of getting scammed as we age). Also, we've saved assuming the nest egg has to take care of both of us indefinitely, but there's a strong probability that there will be only one of us to support in the final years.

Sensing a theme here....I have 3 kids so that ship has sailed but in all reality they are aging up and nearing college so in aspect there will come a time that all the dependent expense (considerable expenses) will go away and that does serve as a partial back up plan, although I would prefer it to go to travel.

[Morning Glory]

......No debt, no dependents.....

Not a backup plan, but not having dependents or shared financials gives me more flexibility.

We also don't have dependents (yay!), but I look at having a partner as an extra layer of security. Either of us could find a job if something catastrophic happens. It's nice to have someone who has your best interests at heart (less chance of getting scammed as we age). Also, we've saved assuming the nest egg has to take care of both of us indefinitely, but there's a strong probability that there will be only one of us to support in the final years.

Sensing a theme here....I have 3 kids so that ship has sailed but in all reality they are aging up and nearing college so in aspect there will come a time that all the dependent expense (considerable expenses) will go away and that does serve as a partial back up plan, although I would prefer it to go to travel.

Lol I tried explaining to my youngest that peeing in the potty would really help with SORR mitigation but he didn't care.

[secondcor521]

I have 42 back up plans identified.  Each is a specific idea in one of the following categories:

Items representing additional margins of safety (8)
Ways to reduce expenses (5)
Ways to earn some income (21)
Super duper backups - stuff I would rather avoid but could do (8)

Numbers in parentheses indicate how many are in each category.

FIREd about seven years and so far haven't had to do any of them.

Three kids, BTW.

[Villanelle]

Among others are:

DH having a COL-adjusted pension for life, enough to likely cover all of our barebones expenses

Owning our home, with the ability to sell and downsize to something smaller or a cheaper area.  Having a roommate would be another option, though I suspect that unless we knew someone looking for a room, we'd downsize before living with a stranger.

When purchasing our retirement home, we will buy something with an income unit of some kind.  This may or may not be possible and it won't outweigh other desires in a house, but if we can find a place that we like and has some sort of income suite, we will likely do that as another measure of security.

A large inheritance.  This one is awkward to list, but there's every reason to believe I will inherit a large amount, yet I don't include that in any of our projections so it would all be extra cushion. 

I have a very, very small side hustle that I don't find unpleasant so I will likely keep it.  It may be possible to scale this up considerably, or at the very least a little bit.

Just not having a lean FIRE, which means there will be plenty to cut if needed.

For at least the first few years, DH should have the ability to fairly easily consult for some income.

Other means of income.  Even a few thousand dollars will make a meaningful difference as far as delaying withdraws during a down market.  This includes things like tutoring, dog walking, editing college entrance essays, etc.

Military retiree insurance for life, as well as access to some other military benefits that can help with some costs, especially if we live near a base.  Or move to be near one.  This is things like slightly cheaper groceries and gas, free travel (in very limited ways, but still a possibility with unlimited time and complete flexibility in locations), use of base fitness facilities, etc.

Some amazing relationships that I could likely tap into for assistance in some situations. 

There are probably more, but those are what come to mind initially. 

[Ladychips]

I plan to respond with my contingencies when I have put my thoughts together. But in the meantime, @secondcor521, I enjoy your posts immensely. Give us an example of super duper backups please.

[mspym]

1- Two weeks after I finished my last contract, we bought a house in my home country that we plan to move to. Once we do, this cuts out $50k p.a. rent. We paid cash so we aren't affected by recent significant rises in mortgage rates.
2- Both boys should be launched into the world by the time we move. [cost reduction TBD]
3- There is an FX rate benefit once we have moved, between 5-15% increase.
4- I have a very part-time gig as a proofreader that provides some income but also keeps my brain thinking.
5- My budget includes at least 15% of fat that could be trimmed.
6- If I had to, I could go back to IT project work either here or in NZ. Since my annual expenses can be covered by minimum wage, a 6-12 month contract gig would cover me for 2-3 years.
7- Because I timed my last contract gig to finish halfway through the financial year, I got a very large tax return which provides a buffer so I can reinvest dividends at lower prices, which should benefit me if and when prices recover.
8- In 12 years, I can access my superannuation accounts.
9 - In 17 years, I can access the national pension

[Ladychips]

I’m a wee bit embarrassed (not really but feel like I SHOULD be) by all of my contingencies.  In many ways it really worked out the way it did as a matter of timing rather than planning.  My husband and I retired the minute I was eligible for my pension and health care and he for his pension and medicare (not early for him). And our investments just skyrocketed the five years before we retired.

Also, my contingencies are based on 3 scenarios: my DH and I both live a long time; my DH dies, leaving me alone; I die and leave my DH alone.  I’m planning on Scenario 1.  My husband was diagnosed with lung cancer so Scenario 2 seemed likely but he’s outlived his original prognosis by quite some time so I’m still thinking Scenario 1. And while Scenario 3 is least likely, it could certainly go down that way in the end... 

If we live, we are fine.  If he dies, I get enough life insurance to pay off my house (not that I would!), my spending would go down quite a bit (although it wouldn’t really need to...) and in a few years I could receive a widow’s benefit from social security.  If I die, he gets a nice chunk of life insurance and could live quite lavishly without me (don’t tell him that).

 

So here they are:

*Based on my tracked spending for five years before retirement, we can live day to day on our pensions/social security/rental. We have a huge gob of investments for one-offs.  And most one-offs are things that can be delayed (new car, most home improvements, etc.).

*We get a ‘raise’ every few years: when we start drawing income from our rentals we own with a partner, when we pay off the house, when I start drawing social security, as well as the raises that come with increased rents.

*We found out during the pandemic that cutting our spending drastically isn’t really that hard.   It gave me a lot of confidence when I retired to know that we could spend so much less without sacrificing anything I cared that much about.

*I have a very tiny side gig that I could ramp up if needed.   

*We have a guest house on our property (that we use for guests).  We could rent it out instead.  If times were really tight, we could move into the guest house and rent out our main house.

*My husband and/or I could go back to work.

*We live in a rural area and have family as neighbors.  Among us we could provide for much of our food if things were really, really bad. 

The only thing on this list that I find unpleasant is if I have to go back to work. 

The only contingency I don’t have that I wish I did have is several years in cash.  But when I think about this rationally, I don’t know why I need it when our pensions/social security/rentals cover our lavish spending. What do I really need years of cash for?  I have cash for something major...it is enough.

The ‘did 2122 pick the worst year to retire’ thread really pissed me off.  So many of us saying it would work out and so many others poopooing our experiences.  Then I finally realized those folks want guarantees in this life and the only way they know to provide a guarantee is to keep working.  Once I had my spouse diagnosed with cancer (and I think this holds for a myriad of other things in life that happen that you cannot control), I realized guarantees are a myth and money is not the most important thing in life (or really even very close to the top of the list of important things). Maybe that makes me sound like a pollyanna or naïve but I'd much rather be retired ME than working THEM! And if I need to implement some contingencies, I'm prepared for that.

[kpd905]

I have 42 back up plans identified.  Each is a specific idea in one of the following categories:

Items representing additional margins of safety (8)
Ways to reduce expenses (5)
Ways to earn some income (21)
Super duper backups - stuff I would rather avoid but could do (8)

Numbers in parentheses indicate how many are in each category.

FIREd about seven years and so far haven't had to do any of them.

Three kids, BTW.

+1 to seeing these plans, if you don't mind typing them all out.

I am still quite a few years from FIRE, but having earned ~$12,000 a year from bank accounts and credit cards for the past 7 years, I am hoping I could keep that going just to reduce my withdrawals, help with SORR, or even just provide a budget for fun money or travel.

[secondcor521]

I plan to respond with my contingencies when I have put my thoughts together. But in the meantime, @secondcor521, I enjoy your posts immensely. Give us an example of super duper backups please.

I could have phrased it better as things I'd rather not do or have happen but if I did them or they did happen would improve the odds of my FIRE "succeeding" in the sense of not running out of money while alive.

Here are several:

Return to full time work in my former career
Rely on / ask for gifting from my parents
Spend my kids' college funds on me instead of them
Receive proceeds from a shareholder lawsuit someone else filed on my behalf
Get more Social Security than expected
Die earlier than expected

I combined a few and left out a couple, but those are the general gist of things.

P. S. - Thanks for the kind words :)

[secondcor521]

I have 42 back up plans identified.  Each is a specific idea in one of the following categories:

Items representing additional margins of safety (8)
Ways to reduce expenses (5)
Ways to earn some income (21)
Super duper backups - stuff I would rather avoid but could do (8)

Numbers in parentheses indicate how many are in each category.

FIREd about seven years and so far haven't had to do any of them.

Three kids, BTW.

+1 to seeing these plans, if you don't mind typing them all out.

I am still quite a few years from FIRE, but having earned ~$12,000 a year from bank accounts and credit cards for the past 7 years, I am hoping I could keep that going just to reduce my withdrawals, help with SORR, or even just provide a budget for fun money or travel.

Whoops, saw this after replying to the other poster.  Last category already covered, here are the first three:

Work longer (salary / options / bonuses)
Work part time at my current company
Not maximizing frugality immediately pre-FIRE
Personal inflation rate of 0% versus historical inflation
FIREcalc starting with less than 4%
FIREcalc leftover balances on average
Not accounting for any reduction in everyday expenses
Not accounting for any reduction in expenses when the kids fly the nest

Downsize my home
Rent out my home and travel / RV / rent
Sell my home and travel / RV / rent
Live in a lower COL state or country
Dial up the frugality in general

Miles hacking
Work part time or on a project basis as a software engineer
Do Instacart or TaskRabbit or maybe Uber/Lyft
Teach SAT/GMAT/etc preparation
Tutor.com or Mathnasium
Teach at an international school (Search Associates)
Teach at the local schools or universities
Substitute teach at the junior high – 854-4000 sub office
Teach ESL
Move retirement assets around for bonuses
Prepare taxes
House sit with “A Trusted HouseSitter”
Gig jobs here ("here" points to some web link)
Craigslist.org gigs
Rent out my garage
Rent out a room or two via AirBnB or similar
Do focus groups or research studies (check with university)
Textbroker.com – write for money
Work as a library assistant
Become a scuba dive master
Take SS early

[secondcor521]

Some more comments:

I think it's a very good idea to sit down before FIRE and write down all the back up plans you can think of.  It can help you calibrate risk - maybe FIRE is more or less risky than you thought after looking at your few or many back up options.  And this may lead you to a different and better FIRE decision (either sooner or later).

The other thing to note is that many early retirees - myself included - plan extensively to avoid the worst case.  We build plans that survive the Great Depression or the stagflation of the 1970s.  And then on top of that we might include additional safety margin because of other countries' history, because SORR, because this time is different, because of an anecdote from a relative about a poorly executed retirement or simply bad luck, just because we're afraid of this that or the other, or just because.

The mathematical fact is that most of the time, the worst case doesn't happen.  Half the time, things even turn out above average.  Yes, it's probably a good idea to pack a sleeping bag and flares and three days of food in the car if you're driving in the mountains on a sunny fall day.  Be prepared, I think the Boy Scouts used to say.  There is a 1-in-100 chance you'll get caught in a surprise heavy downpour followed by an early snowstorm and - whoops, you're low on fuel - and end up stranded in the wilderness overnight.  And in that situation, you'll be glad you're prepared.  But 99 times out of 100, you'll end up carrying extra provisions that will just end up staying in the trunk of your car unused.

I'm not saying don't be prepared; I'm just saying it shouldn't be that much of a surprise when things actually turn out fine.

---

Another point I'll make on this topic:

Good surprises happen too.  All of my contingency plans were written down somewhere around the fall of 2015.  After that time, I've had several positive financial impacts that I didn't expect:

1.  My youngest child made a decision to attend a university where they were awarded more than full scholarships.  It's a dynamic situation as I still have two offspring in college, but it does currently look like their college expenses will be fully covered with probably some left over for grad school / weddings / house funds.

2.  Obviously a horrible thing from a non-financial perspective, but my Mom passed away just after I FIREd, and there were some life insurance proceeds I received.  This meant I didn't have to sell any investments for a while, and those investments gained a fair amount in that time frame.

3.  I didn't realize until after I FIREd that I have what I call non-portfolio income.  Obviously dividends and capital gains and such on a portfolio are part of the 4% rule.  But I have a number of miscellaneous and small income streams:  tradelines, gifts received, tax returns, refunds and rebates.  Individually don't seem like much but add up to about half of my modest annual expenses.  So my net WR% is half of what it otherwise would be.

[ToTheMoon]

I appreciate that other posts are being sensible and are probably helpful for many but...I freakin' loved this take. Thanks!

I have a gold coin of sufficient size and weight such that I should be able to sell it in a time of need for enough money to buy a one way bus ticket to San Diego, California. I will use whatever is left to buy a tent and set it up on a street opposite the beach such that I have a good view of the sunset. I will spend my remaining days begging for money for food during the day then spending the money on hookers and boos every night. Did I mention I will have an awesome view of the sunset?

If I don't get enough money from begging I will go rob a bank. There will be a 100% chance I will get caught though as I will simply hand the teller a note that it is a robbery and to call 911. I will be unarmed waiting in the lobby when the police show up. I will then spend my remaining days eating prison food and working out and reading anything I can get a hold of from the prison library, if one exists...

Or I could get a job. Idk...I assume most failure scenarios I will see years in advance and could simply go back to work as a truck driver or something. The only failure scenario I can think of where I would not have years of advance notice involves a blinding light and a few seconds where I contemplate why I spent so much of my life saving money before the nuclear blast obliterates the essense of my existence. Maybe I am just optimistic.

I also adored @curious_george 's take on this. Aren't backup plans great!? :D

[Omy]

Such great responses. One I forgot to put on my list is that we could rent out all or part of our paid off clown house if necessary.

I joke that if DH passes away before I do, I plan to go full out Golden Girls and move my favorite peeps in with me.

[secondcor521]

LOL! Let's not forget sugar daddy/mama! I'd add in hooker, stripper, madam, pimp, drug runner and hit person but those sound like jobs ;-).

You're still FIREd as long as you don't do those things for money! ;-)

[Morning Glory]

I appreciate that other posts are being sensible and are probably helpful for many but...I freakin' loved this take. Thanks!

I have a gold coin of sufficient size and weight such that I should be able to sell it in a time of need for enough money to buy a one way bus ticket to San Diego, California. I will use whatever is left to buy a tent and set it up on a street opposite the beach such that I have a good view of the sunset. I will spend my remaining days begging for money for food during the day then spending the money on hookers and boos every night. Did I mention I will have an awesome view of the sunset?

If I don't get enough money from begging I will go rob a bank. There will be a 100% chance I will get caught though as I will simply hand the teller a note that it is a robbery and to call 911. I will be unarmed waiting in the lobby when the police show up. I will then spend my remaining days eating prison food and working out and reading anything I can get a hold of from the prison library, if one exists...

Or I could get a job. Idk...I assume most failure scenarios I will see years in advance and could simply go back to work as a truck driver or something. The only failure scenario I can think of where I would not have years of advance notice involves a blinding light and a few seconds where I contemplate why I spent so much of my life saving money before the nuclear blast obliterates the essense of my existence. Maybe I am just optimistic.

I also adored @curious_george 's take on this. Aren't backup plans great!? :D

LOL! Let's not forget sugar daddy/mama! I'd add in hooker, stripper, madam, pimp, drug runner and hit person but those sound like jobs ;-).

Politician's mistress.  Benefits include pied a terre, fur coat, and access to safe abortions. There is a pension in the form of hush money which doubles if your politician's shtick is that he's a conservative Christian.

[secondcor521]

LOL! Let's not forget sugar daddy/mama! I'd add in hooker, stripper, madam, pimp, drug runner and hit person but those sound like jobs ;-).

You're still FIREd as long as you don't do those things for money! ;-)

You mean you're still FIREd as long as you don't "HAVE" to do any of those things for money ;-). This is MMM after all where having a "fun" job means you're still FIREd (don't tell the IRP!).

Well, yeah, that's another way to go.  :)

I still have a clean record with the IRP, but I ignore them.

I'm not organized or ruthless enough to be a pimp, not heartless enough to be a hitman or run drugs, and too ordinary looking to be a gigolo, so I'm safe anyways!

[MrGreen]

I have the best redundancy money can't buy, which is realizing how little you actually need to live. Most people don't realize there is a whole world of inexpensive living below their lowest threshold, even in the US.

[MrGreen]

I have the best redundancy money can't buy, which is realizing how little you actually need to live. Most people don't realize there is a whole world of inexpensive living below their lowest threshold, even in the US.

Van down by the river baby!! Throw in some government cheese and I'd be all set ;-).

I agree. I live a very "millionaire next door" stealth wealth middle class appearing kind of life on a few hundred bucks a month when I first FIREd. It was easy and fun and very stress free. Living in a 1975 Ford Pinto might have actually cost more ;-).

With a house (especially one that is paid off) tapping the home equity can be an option too. Get a cheap line of credit as part of your back up plans and don't use it except for extreme emergencies. I got one before I FIREd "just in case" and never used it so let it close after being open for 5 years. It was free from my credit union and after the 5 year draw period it had a 20 year repayment period. So if I needed that money I had access to it with a long repayment time. Hard to get a new mortgage or HELOC or equity loan if you are already retired and your stash has shrunk a bit.

A big part of this is having developed the mindset that life does not require constant progress, that one can be happy just being. For those that feel the need to continue achieving in FIRE, living on very minimal money could be difficult for them. But if you're minimal enough to comfortably live in a space the size of a vehicle, handy enough to make a vehicle into a space comfortable to live in, and understand that you can poop outside in millions of acres of beautiful, public lands if need be (following proper leave no trace protocol), then you are, other than the literal, bombproof.

[FIRE 20/20]

I love this:

The other thing to note is that many early retirees - myself included - plan extensively to avoid the worst case.  We build plans that survive the Great Depression or the stagflation of the 1970s.  And then on top of that we might include additional safety margin because of other countries' history, because SORR, because this time is different, because of an anecdote from a relative about a poorly executed retirement or simply bad luck, just because we're afraid of this that or the other, or just because.

The mathematical fact is that most of the time, the worst case doesn't happen.  Half the time, things even turn out above average.  Yes, it's probably a good idea to pack a sleeping bag and flares and three days of food in the car if you're driving in the mountains on a sunny fall day.  Be prepared, I think the Boy Scouts used to say.  There is a 1-in-100 chance you'll get caught in a surprise heavy downpour followed by an early snowstorm and - whoops, you're low on fuel - and end up stranded in the wilderness overnight.  And in that situation, you'll be glad you're prepared.  But 99 times out of 100, you'll end up carrying extra provisions that will just end up staying in the trunk of your car unused.

and this:

I have the best redundancy money can't buy, which is realizing how little you actually need to live. Most people don't realize there is a whole world of inexpensive living below their lowest threshold, even in the US.

My back-up plans:

1.  OMY (actually was 10 months).  I don't know if you count this as a back-up plan, but that's how I thought of it.  If you think it doesn't qualify, just move down the list
2.  Set myself up for consulting, maintain contacts and certifications to allow a return to work.  I actually trashed this idea about 2 months into FIRE.  FIRE was way better than I expected, so now I don't plan to ever return to work.  Cutting expenses is vastly preferable to returning to work.
3.  Talk to my partner to agree on a list of cuts and triggers.  i.e., if our 'stache drops to 25x our planned expenses (we were well above 25x due to OMY) then cut travel budget by 50%.  If it drops to 22x, then cut A, B, and C expenses.  If it falls to 20x, cut D, E, and F.  We have a list of multiple cuts we could make.  The full list is about 20% of our total spending.  Actually, looking at the list now we've already underspent in every single one of those categories.  We're both happy enough being FIREd that some of those luxury expenditures haven't happened - not because we wanted to reduce spending but because those things aren't priorities any longer.  Interesting. 
4.  Ignore pensions (we both have one) and Social Security.  If all of these actually pay out at just 60% of the expected amounts they cover our full spending, not minimal spending. 

That seems like a pretty short list, but I feel very good about our chances.  We aimed for a 4% WDR, but then always planned to work an extra year.  With lower than planned spending, the extra year of work, and then good market returns on top of that (until the last year or so) our withdrawal rate has been below 3%.  We never planned that - I think planning for a sub-3% WDR is excessively cautious - it just happened. 

[Kevin Aster Tin Obin]

Retired 8 years now.  Paid off condo and car.  Expenses are low, probably around $16K a year, all inclusive.  Usual plan Bs, take pension early, take Social Security early, get a roommate, get a j*b, move to a lower cost area or country.  Best case is take the pension and and SS as late as possible (health permitting).

Can you share how you live on $16k a year?  Housing and food alone would be over that in 98% of America unless you rent a room. Curious. Thanks

[jim555]

Retired 8 years now.  Paid off condo and car.  Expenses are low, probably around $16K a year, all inclusive.  Usual plan Bs, take pension early, take Social Security early, get a roommate, get a j*b, move to a lower cost area or country.  Best case is take the pension and and SS as late as possible (health permitting).

Can you share how you live on $16k a year?  Housing and food alone would be over that in 98% of America unless you rent a room. Curious. Thanks

Food is running about $165 a month.  I could drop $30 off that if I stopped drinking soda.  Medical, phone, and Internet is free.  Electric rates are lower due to low income.  Taxes and Maintenance are the biggest expenses.  I hardly drive so gas is minimal.  This is high cost Long Island.

[2Birds1Stone]

1) Ultimately aim for a <1% withdrawal rate
2) Keep working at least 1-2 part time jobs
3) Buy enough non-perishables to last until EOL, including adult diapers and denture cleaning tablets
4) Replace spouse with younger spouse, every 10 years or so
5) Grow 100% of my own food
6) Keep a FIRE blanket and extinguisher handy, just in case I can't take the heat

[LD_TAndK]

1) Ultimately aim for a <1% withdrawal rate
2) Keep working at least 1-2 part time jobs
3) Buy enough non-perishables to last until EOL, including adult diapers and denture cleaning tablets
4) Replace spouse with younger spouse, every 10 years or so
5) Grow 100% of my own food
6) Keep a FIRE blanket and extinguisher handy, just in case I can't take the heat

You had me going I'll admit...

[curious_george]

1) Ultimately aim for a <1% withdrawal rate
2) Keep working at least 1-2 part time jobs
3) Buy enough non-perishables to last until EOL, including adult diapers and denture cleaning tablets
4) Replace spouse with younger spouse, every 10 years or so
5) Grow 100% of my own food
6) Keep a FIRE blanket and extinguisher handy, just in case I can't take the heat

Hahahahaha...

Oh wait, is this for real? It's getting harder and harder to say who is joking. I have seen threads like this in the ere forums - except over there I know they are dead serious.

[jim555]

I lived on about the same amount (less for barebones expenses and a bit more -maybe $18k/year - if counting travel and fun stuff) and a lot of it is having the paid for house/condo and and other very low expenses like low cost or free medical. My base expenses when I owned my first house and FIRE worked out to something like $500 - $700/month all in. Being able to keep a roof over my head, the lights on and some basic food on the table for a small amount of money is a good back up plan. My current FIRE income is $30k/year and am only spending about half of that amount now due to old pet and not travelling (my biggest expense).

Once I get to pension and Social Security that will cover things a few times over.  I could take the pension now and get about $15K.

[Kevin Aster Tin Obin]

thanks @jim555 and @spartana so assuming you own your house, then property taxes, insurance, maintenance, repairs are included in the $700-1333 per month living expenses? 

[jim555]

thanks @jim555 and @spartana so assuming you own your house, then property taxes, insurance, maintenance, repairs are included in the $700-1333 per month living expenses?

The number includes everything.  Since I'm in a condo most things are common elements, like the roof.  I had a plumbing issue but learned and fixed it myself.  Fees cover heat, water, trash, landscaping, snow removal, general maintenance and insurance for things outside your walls.  Inside the unit is your responsibility.

[Ozlady]

Geographical Arbitrage !


https://www.youtube.com/c/VagabondAwake/videos

[JupiterGreen]

Geographical Arbitrage !


https://www.youtube.com/c/VagabondAwake/videos

This is a cool channel!

My backup plan (not retired yet) is to draw down far less than the stache can handle in case of volatility:
-cut expenses/bare bones budget
-tap in to cash reserves
-social security
-sell house
-sell cars
-get roommate/rental
-part time work/ side gigs
-going back to work full time would be my last resort

To be honest I don't see my partner ever fully retiring, it's not in his nature. So we'll probably always have a little money trickling in with his part time stuff/side gigs provided he stays healthy. But I don't count on this as a backup because you never know.

[Metalcat]

As I said in the other thread, my backup plan is largely about maintaining profitable skill sets and networks.

I'm a bit of an extreme case because I had that worst-case-scenario that everyone talks about and thinks won't happen to them. I suddenly became seriously disabled in my 30s after training 11 years for a specialized medical career that required me to not just be able-bodied, but extraordinarily able-bodied. A sprained finger could bench me.

Turns out I had two extremely rare genetic/congenital conditions that left me extremely prone to serious injuries/organ damage in a career that's famous for causing injuries. I'm now permanently seriously injured, some treatable, some not, and my medical future is entirely unpredictable as any system or limb could be affected.

I just spent 7 days stuck in bed because my heart decided my brain doesn't really need blood all the time. Hence why I've been posting...a lot.

I could be hiking trails into my 80s or I could lose a leg, be stuck in a wheelchair, and on a feeding tube in my 60s, although that's improbable, it is possible.

How the fuck does anyone prepare for that??? Screw SORR and market performance, that doesn't even register on my list of shit that could cause financial problems for me. HOW DO YOU PLAN FOR THAT???

Well, here goes

1) Flexible spending:
We have experimented with a lot of budget optimization and can happily live on very little core lifestyle spending. So if we need to go into austerity mode, we know how to do it and how to be happy doing it.

2) Housing:
We bought very low cost housing in 3 locations that we can alternately relocate to depending on our needs at the time. The cheapest house is our favourite, it's entire expenses including all utilities would be covered by renting out the other two, and it's in a naturally Mustachian area, where literally everyone is frugal, so austerity is easy.

We don't live there right now because the medical care out there is terrible, and I'm in a high-use phase at the moment.  But a bonus (???) of most of my health issues being untreatable is that I'm rarely tethered to ongoing medical intervention.

3) Skills:
This is our big hedge against risk. I spent two years figuring out the best skills to invest in to be able to generate substantial income under almost any circumstances.

In those two years I picked up several lower paying, easy, remote work skills, and am now retraining in an entirely new high-income, disability-proof, recession-proof, ageism-proof, geographically flexible, part-time friendly career that I can hop in and out of with little negative impact on my career trajectory. And it's work I profoundly enjoy.

DH also spent a few decades building towards his dream job, which he just got, so he's not going to leave any time soon. After that, he will likely consult and make even more money. His particular skill/knowledge/network combo is extremely rare and valuable, especially to the deepest pockets in the world: governments, tech and energy companies.

4) Diversification
DH has a pension that along with our investments and rental income could support our austerity-mode expenses, but if he continues working, it will cover all of our comfortable lifestyle expenses.

Our skills can generate income to cover unknown lifestyle or medical expenses that could come up.

Our investments just hang out in the background growing from a very modest sum to an extremely healthy back-up 'stache over time as compounding does it's thing. Note, Pete's originally 650K 'stache would be worth around 7M by 65 just by not touching it.

This back-up 'stache serves to hedge against DH's death or divorce. If he died or left me within the next decade, I would be dependent on my skills for income because a small stache, a reduced pension, and a modest rental income isn't a ton. So good thing I'll have those robust skills.

5) DH
This leads me to the biggest risk management strategy of all of them.

Divorce is by orders of magnitude the most probable and most damaging risk financially for any married person. For a woman who suddenly becomes substantially disabled? The risk is astronomical.
It's well documented that the strongest predictor of divorce following serious health issues is that the sick person is a woman.

Well, I had a small advantage on that front. There are a number of women with MS in my family with devoted husbands, so I had a model of what to look for as a woman with a sketchy genetic background. Lol.

My DH is a trained nurse's aide with experience working in palliative care. It was in his proposal speech that he was prepared and happy to provide any hands-on care that I or my mother might need, and would happily take leave from his career to do so.

The past few years have been extremely rough healthwise, so this has all been tested, and amazingly, our marriage got happier and more mellow through it all.

So yeah, DH is BY FAR, no contest, not even close, the most valuable risk hedge I could possibly ever have given my particular risk profile.


In summary:

I've invested an inordinate amount of time and energy into engineering a robust risk-management system to offset the astronomical risks of my specific circumstances.

The only way I'm fucked is if within the next decade my husband dies/leaves me AND I sustain substantial brain damage to a point of losing cognitive function.

That would be pretty bad, but mostly because I would have substantial brain damage and my husband either died young or left me. The situation being financially suboptimal would just be piss on the wounds.

Anything short of that is well-hedged.

[ToTheMoon]

@Malcat I love how highly you speak of and regard your DH - I can feel your respect through your writing and it always makes me smile. I have a similar DH, who held down the fort with pets and young kids while I spent the better part of a year in bed dealing with chemo and its aftereffects. I would agree that in this case, it made our marriage stronger.

A great partner is an excellent hedge against many of life's woes!

[Metalcat]

@Malcat I love how highly you speak of and regard your DH - I can feel your respect through your writing and it always makes me smile. I have a similar DH, who held down the fort with pets and young kids while I spent the better part of a year in bed dealing with chemo and its aftereffects. I would agree that in this case, it made our marriage stronger.

A great partner is an excellent hedge against many of life's woes!

That's so awesome. It's kind of terrifying to be so dependent on another person who can just decide you're not worth the hassle.

My mom and I have different diagnoses, but similar conditions. We're both loosely involved in online communities for people with our conditions, but we can't spend a ton of time there because it's just story after story after story of sick women being abandoned.

My sister has a disabled husband (we're a pretty mangled family) and she was part of a support group for spouses and she couldn't handle seeing the men drop off one by one as they bailed on their wives when they got worse.

Even my surgeon expressed concern. Because I sounded so sure of my husband's ability to support me as I relearn how to walk (twice), he was highly concerned that I had unrealistic expectations of his capacity.

It was sad, but I did actually laugh at the time.

[cats]

Our big two backups are probably that we haven't factored Social Security or inheritance into our projections. I don't really like to count on inheritance as parents may well wind up needing to spend it all, or giving it away or who knows what. Also, it's impossible to know the exact timing. But, it's definitely likely we'll be getting some kind of stash bump from that. And then Social Security--don't know exactly what changes will be made to minimum age or the amount being paid out but it's probably not going to be zero.

Otherwise, our expenses definitely have some small room to trim if necessary, mostly cutting out/down on kid extracurriculars and travel. If we needed some extra income I'm confident I could at the least pick up a couple days of substitute teaching each week. I imagine if we find we need more money it's not going to be on the order of $100k/yr, but more like maybe an extra $5-$20k/yr to get us through a low period or pay for a slightly larger than expected one off expense. I have also done scientific editing as a side hustle in the past and could probably pick that up again too without much trouble, I don't particularly love it but it is flexible and can be done from home. Now that I'm actually RE I have been looking around a bit to figure out if there is such a thing as a fun part-time job that suits my interests so I may have more ideas on this front in another year or so!

We also currently have an unfinished basement that we are hoping to DIY refinish and if that was in place it could definitely be set up as an Airbnb or similar, again I don't like to count on that as future income as we still need to refinish it, and from some articles I have read recently it sounds like maintaining a profitable Airbnb is getting more difficult....

I guess I also already OMY'ed by two as we were technically FI in 2019 but the pandemic and WFH made my job much less crappy so I decided to work a bit longer.

[secondcor521]

thanks @jim555 and @spartana so assuming you own your house, then property taxes, insurance, maintenance, repairs are included in the $700-1333 per month living expenses?

Yes that included everything besides potential (often unlikely) big ticket items. I had a separate emergency fund of approx $30k in cash (a MM account) for that.

I had bought a foreclosure fixer 3/2 house in coastal SoCal at the bottom of the housing crash in 2012 very cheaply. Paid cash, had low prop taxes (1% of purchase price and very little increase over the years), insurance, and utilities. So other then some fix up costs (all DIY) my housing expenses for everything was $300/month. Car was paid for with liability insurance and very little use except for road trips (lived in a walkable and bikeable area) so low fuel and maintenance costs. Medical was free Or very low cost through the VA, frugal or free outdoor sports hobbies for the most part, $50/year gym membership, low clothing expenses (shorts and tank tops year round!), no home internet or cable and some basic mostly vegan food. All that added in another $200 or $300/month so that all brought my base expenses between $500 - $600/month. Of course my discretionary spending was higher often because I did take some long frugal camping trips or the occasional splurge on something, but that stuff was variable and could be cut if ever needed. The few times I got a roommate that actually covered ALL my base expenses and then some. A 0% WR during those times.

I recently sold that house and am doing a shared rental temporarily while I decide where I want to buy next. I also currently don't own a car so no vehicle expenses other then occasionally low cost monthly rentals. I do spend more on my base expenses then when I had a house but it's still pretty low - say $1000/month for my share including utilities and internet, and less than $500/month for everything else.

Looking at my Quicken data, I could survive on $15K/$16K a year, but that would be fairly bare bones - no vacations, no kid expenses, no kids' college.  I'm not actually doing it because I have two living with me now and one in college, and I still take vacations.  And I'm not sure how much food and utilities would drop if they weren't here, so that part is a guesstimate.

But generally a similar story to jim555 and spartana.  Paid off house and car in MCOL, low cost hobbies, low cost medical care, low property taxes, frugality in general, and not many fancy or expensive hobbies.

[Villanelle]

Malcat's excellent post brings up two more point in my plan.

First, I consciously tend to my relationship so that is stays as healthy as possible.  I won't prattle on about that; suffice it to say that I do what I can (and I think DH does as well) to make sure divorce doesn't come around and put a major dent in our plans.

Second, I'm entitled to half of DH's pension if we divorce (actually, about 45%) as well as--most likely--as substantial amount of alimony.  It would set back the plans significantly, of course, but I'd be far less destitute than I'd be without those things.  Given that I gave up my career for his, something I've never been especially comfortable with, that's at least a small comfort.   I have no reason to believe we will end up there, but I could survive on that alone, if necessary. 

[secondcor521]

[...snip...]

Yeah kids do add a lot of expenses which may (hopefully!)  go away once they are adults. Im always impressed that some people with kids who aren't super high earners can save enough to retire early. When you're a DINK or even a SINK it's pretty easy to live very low cost and save most of your earnings in most normal circumstances.

I do try to visualize if I was an 18 or early 20 year old just starting out today with my same work/life situation would I have been able to FIRE in my 30s or early 40s. Yes but that's still 20 years of full time lower/middle income work, living lean,  and saving a lot. If I chose to have kids IDK if I could have done that - especially with a divorce too. How all you parents out there make that happen is pretty damn impressive to me! Of course your kids could be your old age back up plans where as us childless people will have to hire out help in our old age.

I have separate categories for "Kids" and "College".  I don't think kid expenses will ever fully go away, but already they're either minimal, or part of planned gifting to help whittle down my estate tax problems that I might have.

My oldest is 27, college degree, good paying job in his field, no debt, good credit, Roth IRA, and solid taxable account.  Spends practically nothing now (lives at home rent free by design), and is about to buy his first car and first house.  Lord willin' and the creek don't rise, he'll be able to retire before 40 if he continues to make good decisions.

My youngest, 20, college junior, with also no debt and good credit and good job prospects, Roth IRA, and taxable account.  Also spends practically nothing, and is in fact making money going to college and also has a couple of part time jobs.  This one will also probably be able to retire early, but it may take them longer since they are planning to be a high school teacher here and the income potential is lower.

My middle one, 22, is a big question mark.  Love him, hard worker, very smart, but has questions about his career/life direction currently.  He likes to spend on nice things, and sometimes colors outside the lines a little.

I was a relatively high earner and was fortunate to be able to save about half of my paycheck into the stock market from about 2009 to 2016.  I also got a good start in life from my parents - college, first car, help with house down payment, and also education and training in financial stuff so I avoided most of the big mistakes.  I also had interest and aptitude and naturally good habits.

The divorce - her choice - was in 2006, so although my net worth got cut in half, my expenses went down because she was much more of a spender than I was.  Also, my job situation got better in 2009 - more stable and higher pay with good raises and options and RSUs and bonuses.  Retired at 46.

My kids won't need to support me financially in my dotage.  My parents never expected their kids to, and I similarly should be fortunate enough to do likewise with mine.  But I can see the benefits of having kids who like their parents - the visits, the help with practical things like driving and grocery shopping, and just generally looking out for medical / financial / tax stuff is something I think my Dad appreciates and would be nice if my kids chose to do that for me.

[tooqk4u22]

Yeah kids do add a lot of expenses which may (hopefully!)  go away once they are adults. Im always impressed that some people with kids who aren't super high earners can save enough to retire early. When you're a DINK or even a SINK it's pretty easy to live very low cost and save most of your earnings in most normal circumstances.

I do try to visualize if I was an 18 or early 20 year old just starting out today with my same work/life situation would I have been able to FIRE in my 30s or early 40s. Yes but that's still 20 years of full time lower/middle income work, living lean,  and saving a lot. If I chose to have kids IDK if I could have done that - especially with a divorce too. How all you parents out there make that happen is pretty damn impressive to me! Of course your kids could be your old age back up plans where as us childless people will have to hire out help in our old age.

What's funny is when I think about, I wonder if I would be FIRE had I not had kids, probably but maybe on a different scale and certainly a different way of life.   But, I think the drive to be sure my kids always had a roof over their heads, food on the table, education, etc.....generally a better more secure life than either I or my wife had......drove me to work harder and smarter than ever to be more valuable to my employers resulted in significantly higher income than we could have ever imagined.

So yeah, while the kids have and are consuming 5 figures a year and college is nearing that could be mid-6 figures for all three, we are probably better off financially because if them (but don't tell them that or they will suck my dry even more..LOL). In another thread I said they were my biggest financial mistake, but maybe not afterall.




As I said, my kids activities alone are about $11k a year that will

[JupiterGreen]

@Malcat I love how highly you speak of and regard your DH - I can feel your respect through your writing and it always makes me smile. I have a similar DH, who held down the fort with pets and young kids while I spent the better part of a year in bed dealing with chemo and its aftereffects. I would agree that in this case, it made our marriage stronger.

A great partner is an excellent hedge against many of life's woes!

That's so awesome. It's kind of terrifying to be so dependent on another person who can just decide you're not worth the hassle.

My mom and I have different diagnoses, but similar conditions. We're both loosely involved in online communities for people with our conditions, but we can't spend a ton of time there because it's just story after story after story of sick women being abandoned.

My sister has a disabled husband (we're a pretty mangled family) and she was part of a support group for spouses and she couldn't handle seeing the men drop off one by one as they bailed on their wives when they got worse.

Even my surgeon expressed concern. Because I sounded so sure of my husband's ability to support me as I relearn how to walk (twice), he was highly concerned that I had unrealistic expectations of his capacity.

It was sad, but I did actually laugh at the time.

I'm very moved by what you wrote too @Malcat I can't imagine going through that, but I'm so glad you partnered with an exceptional guy. My DH is amazing too and I respect him immensely. I remember reading an article about the % of men who leave their female partners when they fall ill and it was very eyeopening and depressing. Those men should be banished or at the very least people should refuse to partner with anyone who does that to their previous partners. It's interesting how many threads in this forum are discussing monetary issues that have sexist origins. I'm glad there are good men out there who are decent and have the ability to understand complexities of issues that aren't solely about them but impact us all. Stay well.