Post-FIRE "Support" Group?

[Kris]

This has been an interesting read.
1. The OP has very few posts
2. Asks about support
3. Many people kindly chime in to offer support
4. OP never gives contexts/details about what support is needed
5. OP suggests changing platforms (where ostensibly they would be the admin for the group at discord)
6. People here: huh?
7. OP says it is so there is more anonymity (even though both platforms are similar in that regard)
8. People here: "nah, I'm good."

Nobody here needs therapy because they don't want to follow someone to discord. And it's good to be cautious. Seems to me the OP is just looking to form a new group. I have no idea if their intentions are genuine or not.

Verdict: sus

Sus, or just at the very least kind of clueless and maybe a tad entitled?

Like, this post would hit differently if OP were a long-time, well-known member of this community who one day said, “Hey, so there’s this thing I’d like to discuss, but for reasons X, Y, and Z I believe that this forum isn’t the best place for that. So I’m starting a thing in another forum for purpose A. If you are interested, send me a DM.”

Instead, what we get is someone coming here with no history and therefore no demonstrated knowledge of this forum, who immediately in their first post proposes a thing, and then says they are making a Discord group and we should follow them there because… reasons.

I mean, it’s not a recipe for success, is all I’m saying.

[12321]

I'm in a handful of other online communication platforms and every single one of them has spam and scams trying to trick you out of money.

but i'm sure one targeted specifically to people with a lot of money and time wouldn't fall victim to that lol

[TreeLeaf]

I mean - it is absurdly suspicious, don't get me wrong.

Especially since OP changed their username to @no and hasn't been back since to respond or explain anything.

My point here is that Discord is an awesome communication platform that is well suited for this sort of task.

If OP is secretly trying to steal people's identity or sleep with a millionaire or pitch some MLM pyramid scheme to a bunch of rich people I have no real idea. All of these things are a possibility.

[Metalcat]

I mean - it is absurdly suspicious, don't get me wrong.

Especially since OP changed their username to @no and hasn't been back since to respond or explain anything.

My point here is that Discord is an awesome communication platform that is well suited for this sort of task.

If OP is secretly trying to steal people's identity or sleep with a millionaire or pitch some MLM pyramid scheme to a bunch of rich people I have no real idea. All of these things are a possibility.

Literally no one is challenging that Discord is bad. You don't need to keep defending or explaining Discord. It's a non-issue.

None of us expressed privacy issues about Discord or any kind of concern about Discord. We all reacted to finding the OP suspicious, not Discord.

[TreeLeaf]

I mean - it is absurdly suspicious, don't get me wrong.

Especially since OP changed their username to @no and hasn't been back since to respond or explain anything.

My point here is that Discord is an awesome communication platform that is well suited for this sort of task.

If OP is secretly trying to steal people's identity or sleep with a millionaire or pitch some MLM pyramid scheme to a bunch of rich people I have no real idea. All of these things are a possibility.

Literally no one is challenging that Discord is bad. You don't need to keep defending or explaining Discord. It's a non-issue.

None of us expressed privacy issues about Discord or any kind of concern about Discord. We all reacted to finding the OP suspicious, not Discord.

But I LOVE defending things. :)

[Metalcat]

I mean - it is absurdly suspicious, don't get me wrong.

Especially since OP changed their username to @no and hasn't been back since to respond or explain anything.

My point here is that Discord is an awesome communication platform that is well suited for this sort of task.

If OP is secretly trying to steal people's identity or sleep with a millionaire or pitch some MLM pyramid scheme to a bunch of rich people I have no real idea. All of these things are a possibility.

Literally no one is challenging that Discord is bad. You don't need to keep defending or explaining Discord. It's a non-issue.

None of us expressed privacy issues about Discord or any kind of concern about Discord. We all reacted to finding the OP suspicious, not Discord.

But I LOVE defending things. :)

Lol, true

[merryt]

If it is cool I am going to hijack this thread of "op is acting sus" to talk about post-fire struggles. /s har har

Thank you all so much for the great info so far.

- What does PTF mean?   
- It seems like there is a running theme of "gotta give time to decompression" How do you know when you have spent enough time decompressing? I seem to yo-yo thinking I am decompressed but realizing I am actually not.

My FIRE story and decompression period.
For six weeks, I went on a video game and junk food bender where I didn't see the sun for weeks at a time.  One morning (OK it was probably late one night) I felt like I had slain "enough" dragons.  I went back to playing the hour or so of video games a day I did before quitting, ate better, slept more reasonable hours.  Head space was still a little weird with constant second guessing the decision.  I had never heard of the 4% rule and was just stabbing in the dark.

I found I really had to give in to the nothing before I could repair my relationship with doing things.

When I retired, I kept feeling like I "should" do something and kept trying to figure out what that "should" should be. Then I worked on a huge, enormously impressive project that blew up in my face quite spectacularly and humiliatingly.

That was the best thing that could happen because it was all I could do at that point to just basically hide away and lick my wounds and tune out the world. Only then did I *finally* decompress almost a year after retiring.

I started really doing nothing of any consequence. I went for long walks every morning, often for the entire morning while listening to audiobooks or having long phone calls with old friends I had lost touch with. I watched A LOT of tv. I did very little aside from basic day-to-day life maintenance stuff and wandering around outside, for a few months.

Then I started craving bigger challenges. Instead of feeling like I "should" be doing "productive" things, I started craving doing more challenging, rewarding things and my thinking wasn't "how should I put my time towards something productive?" it was "why the hell not do this? What else am I going to do with my time?"

- Does anyone else feel like they MIGHT inflate their lifestyle in the future, and that when they want to they won't be able to do it as efficiently because their skills are out of date? Does the worry of "is my SWR right?" go away?

... "fuck it, why not do grad school? What the hell else am I going to do with my time stuck in bed between surgeries??"...

@Metalcat - Was your grad degree related to your career? I feel like I "should" be doing something productive and grad school is fitting that bill. The idea that it feels like something I "should" do kinda feels like a redflag.

[Metalcat]

If it is cool I am going to hijack this thread of "op is acting sus" to talk about post-fire struggles. /s har har

Thank you all so much for the great info so far.

- What does PTF mean?   
Posting To Follow

- It seems like there is a running theme of "gotta give time to decompression" How do you know when you have spent enough time decompressing? I seem to yo-yo thinking I am decompressed but realizing I am actually not.

Perhaps think of it less in terms of decompression and more in terms of whether or not you have achieved a state of optimal mental health.

If you aren't feeling at ease and at peace with your life, then something is off with your mental health. Perhaps your job was contributing to that, perhaps a bunch of things have.

What do you think it's holding you back from waking up in the morning and feeling like your life is really great?

- Does anyone else feel like they MIGHT inflate their lifestyle in the future, and that when they want to they won't be able to do it as efficiently because their skills are out of date? Does the worry of "is my SWR right?" go away?

You don't just inflate your lifestyle though. People just live according to what they have available and make it work. That said, you've asked a smart question about your skills being out of date. Being retired means having all the time in the world to cultivate new skills if you want to.

I personally am not comfortable being in a position where I have no marketable skills, plus I like learning, so there's no way I would ever be in a position where my skills aren't up to date.

My skills from my former career are useless to me because I physically can't do that job anymore, but there are tons of skills out there to learn and capitalize on.

Part of my fun of being retired has been playing around with learning new skills. I took a course on technical writing just for fun and voila, I had a new marketable skill.

The world of skills is vast and interesting. Exoring them *can* be a fun and interesting thing to do in retirement. Because your concept of time changes. It's not "oh, I need to study this so that I can make money from it" it's more like "huh...this seems interesting and I have plenty of time, so why not study it and see if I enjoy it?"

Because I always am developing new and interesting skills, I'm never worried about my ability to make more money if I want to or need to.

@Metalcat - Was your grad degree related to your career? I feel like I "should" be doing something productive and grad school is fitting that bill. The idea that it feels like something I "should" do kinda feels like a redflag.

I was a medical professional and my new degree is in a totally different field, but still in the patient-care world.

That said, I am not doing it at all because I feel I should, I'm doing it because after spending a few years retired, I had naturally gravitated towards taking tons of Coursera type courses, reading an astronomical amount of educational non-fiction, and volunteering extensively in ever increasingly demanding roles.

It got to the point that I was doing so much work it was stupid NOT to just channel that into a degree and a new career. If I was going to learn so much and work so much, why not get paid for it??

None of what I'm doing comes from a place of fear or anxiety. I've just looked at my life, looked at what I enjoy.l, and found a way to maximize my happiness and security within the world of things that I enjoy doing anyway.

[merryt]

None of what I'm doing comes from a place of fear or anxiety. I've just looked at my life, looked at what I enjoy. l, and found a way to maximize my happiness and security within the world of things that I enjoy doing anyway.

Was there a period at the beginning of your retirement where you felt like you were acting from a position of fear or anxiety?

[Metalcat]

None of what I'm doing comes from a place of fear or anxiety. I've just looked at my life, looked at what I enjoy. l, and found a way to maximize my happiness and security within the world of things that I enjoy doing anyway.

Was there a period at the beginning of your retirement where you felt like you were acting from a position of fear or anxiety?

Yeah, for sure. I had suddenly lost a career I loved that I studied 11 years to have after only working for 7, and I was in excruciating pain and unclear how I would ever live a full and happy life. I was a fucking mess before and after I retired.

But I was also very, very ready to be not working anymore because I was in such rough shape. Plus my clinic shut down at the same time due to the pandemic, so I couldn't keep working if I had wanted to.

So parts of retiring were easier for me than others and parts were harder.

No two people will respond to major life events the same way. We will have some major similarities and some major differences.

You sound like you're looking for reassurance, but none of us can really give that to you. If you aren't feeling like you are in a good head space, then be proactive about working on that.

Do some deep reflection on what you want from your life. Try some new things. Get some therapy.

I did all of the above. There's no amount of time that would do that work for me. I put in a lot of energy to build my very best life and very best mental health.

[merryt]

You sound like you're looking for reassurance, but none of us can really give that to you. If you aren't feeling like you are in a good head space, then be proactive about working on that.

Do some deep reflection on what you want from your life. Try some new things. Get some therapy.

I did all of the above. There's no amount of time that would do that work for me. I put in a lot of energy to build my very best life and very best mental health.

Yea, I am looking for reassurance. You are right, no one can give that to me... I have tried a few things in that proactive hunt for figuring things out

• Therapy
• Part-time jobs
• Traveling
• Journaling
• Volunteering
• Spending time with family
• More time in nature
• Probably a hand full of other smaller things

At this point, I am curious if some degree of feelings of sadness and stress is just part of life.

[Metalcat]

You sound like you're looking for reassurance, but none of us can really give that to you. If you aren't feeling like you are in a good head space, then be proactive about working on that.

Do some deep reflection on what you want from your life. Try some new things. Get some therapy.

I did all of the above. There's no amount of time that would do that work for me. I put in a lot of energy to build my very best life and very best mental health.

Yea, I am looking for reassurance. You are right, no one can give that to me... I have tried a few things in that proactive hunt for figuring things out

• Therapy
• Part-time jobs
• Traveling
• Journaling
• Volunteering
• Spending time with family
• More time in nature
• Probably a hand full of other smaller things

At this point, I am curious if some degree of feelings of sadness and stress is just part of life.

NOOOOOOOOOPE

I suggest trying therapy again and getting a MUCH better therapist.

FTR, I am extremely happy and my life is frickin awesome. And that's even with the fact that I had already suffered a disabling injury that made me retire and then I suffered a separate, even more disabling injury and ended up in a wheelchair and currently have a broken femur.

Even with that shit going on and the fact that I haven't been able to bathe myself on my own for a month, I'm still not generally sad and stressed.

I spend most of my days, even now, even hobbled and in excruciating pain, pretty chill and happy, and feel 100% confident that my future is bright and shiny.

Moments of stress and sadness are normal, but not as default feelings.

It sounds like you have a mental health issue, not a retirement issue. And it sounds like you need much better therapy than you've had.

[TreeLeaf]

One reason I have not retired, despite being at a 2.5% withdrawal rate, is because I literally don't know what to do with myself and the idea of doing nothing is terrifying because then I would have to confront the meaningless of existence and the inevitably of my own death head on.

In addition...As a boy my mother openly said she only married my father for the money and because he had a nice job. She would always demand he buy her nice things and threaten to leave if he did not. So I sort of internalized this belief that women only want men who have money and nice jobs and I needed this in order to be loved romantically. So another reason I have not quit my job after working for 21 years is I'm afraid my wife, and society in general, won't see my value anymore.

I know it doesn't make much sense, because I know several women who are attracted to men with no jobs or money, so it has just become another false belief I need to get rid of.

I would imagine that other men who were raised by a gold digging mother might have similarly unhealthy beliefs to let go of.

In general I think a lot of people have false beliefs that cause mental health issues, myself included.

[merryt]

Thank you both so much for all your help! I will start doing research on mental health people for perpetually nomadic people. I am also going to try not putting pressure on myself to finish things for "productivity"s sake. Maybe just allow my self to experiment more with non-productive hobbies. I really appreciate that idea and your story of technical writing @Metalcat ! Thank you.

Also, we should move to discord, because of anonymity. I'll be the admin. /s

[Metalcat]

Thank you both so much for all your help! I will start doing research on mental health people for perpetually nomadic people. I am also going to try not putting pressure on myself to finish things for "productivity"s sake. Maybe just allow my self to experiment more with non-productive hobbies. I really appreciate that idea and your story of technical writing @Metalcat ! Thank you.

Also, we should move to discord, because of anonymity. I'll be the admin. /s

Lol, I got bored a few months back and bought a guitar.

I have zero passion for music and no desire to become good at guitar beyond being able to play a campfire song because I like campfire songs.

I picked guitar specifically because I wanted a hobby that wasn't productive in any way. It's been a lot of fun.

[merryt]

Lol, I got bored a few months back and bought a guitar.

I have zero passion for music and no desire to become good at guitar beyond being able to play a campfire song because I like campfire songs.

I picked guitar specifically because I wanted a hobby that wasn't productive in any way. It's been a lot of fun.

Do you ever pick up hobbies and not reach your target level of competency? (How are you going to feel if you don't play guitar well enough to play a song around the  campfire?)

I feel like I am running into emotional problems because I am setting my hobby goals to high, then sticking with them even when it isn't fun anymore.

[Villanelle]

Lol, I got bored a few months back and bought a guitar.

I have zero passion for music and no desire to become good at guitar beyond being able to play a campfire song because I like campfire songs.

I picked guitar specifically because I wanted a hobby that wasn't productive in any way. It's been a lot of fun.

Do you ever pick up hobbies and not reach your target level of competency? (How are you going to feel if you don't play guitar well enough to play a song around the  campfire?)

I feel like I am running into emotional problems because I am setting my hobby goals to high, then sticking with them even when it isn't fun anymore.

I certainly pick up hobbies and ditch them at various points.  They are never really about the goal anyway.  They are about satisfying intellectual curiosity and tackling a challenge.  I have an embroidery sampler with about 17 stitches in it that I may never touch again.  I quickly determined it wasn't right for me.  Now, it's possible that had a kept at it, I might have grown to enjoy it.  But After reading a couple books and watching some videos, I just found it tedious and I saw no need to keep at it.  I'd invested about $12.  So I will never end up buying thrift store sweaters for my friend group and embroidering "Cheers", or the comparable word in a language appropriate for each of us according to where we have lived, which is what initially lead me to embroidery.  Oh well. 

The sampler will probably sit for another couple months and assuming I don't feel a pull to return to it, I will give it away in my local Buy Nothing group. 

I've now moved on to chess, which I've always wanted to learn to play.  In fact, my "1001 Chess Exercises for Beginners" book is literally sitting on top of the embroidery hoop.  I'm already much more engaged with this than I was with the embroidery.   Will I still be in 6 months?  Maybe, or maybe not.  Will I ever become a rated play or play in (or win) a tournament?  Who cares?  I will keep at it at some level until it stops interesting me.  Because the point isn't to add some thing to my resume or a thing I can brag to friends about.  it's to expand my mind and make myself happy.  It has fuck-all to do with a goal. Think of it more like going to a buffet (blech, but still, bear with the metaphor) and trying different foods.  There is [hopefully] no goal that requires you to try every item from the Asian section, or to determine what's in the mystery Mexican dish.  You aren't there to accomplish anything; you are there to enjoy some food.  And maybe you select a dessert and it turns out it is terrible, so you don't finish it. 

And with that, I'm off to the "Mate in 2" chapter of my book...

[Metalcat]

Lol, I got bored a few months back and bought a guitar.

I have zero passion for music and no desire to become good at guitar beyond being able to play a campfire song because I like campfire songs.

I picked guitar specifically because I wanted a hobby that wasn't productive in any way. It's been a lot of fun.

Do you ever pick up hobbies and not reach your target level of competency? (How are you going to feel if you don't play guitar well enough to play a song around the  campfire?)

I feel like I am running into emotional problems because I am setting my hobby goals to high, then sticking with them even when it isn't fun anymore.

I don't think you quite understand how *not* invested in my guitar hobby I am. I could never pick it up again and not care at all. I practice because I enjoy it, if I don't feel like practicing, I don't. The campfire song proficiency is not a goal, it's kind of a max level I have any interest in. I don't care if I never even get to a point that I can comfortably play a "C" chord. My noodling on the guitar is in no way outcome-motivated.

You definitely have a mindset problem, not a "what should I be doing?" problem.

[eyesonthehorizon]

Society constantly drills into us that the purpose of doing anything is productivity, but we don't have to subscribe to that idea. Think back to when you were small & did things just because you felt like it, just for play. If you've hit FI, you've won the game; you have bought yourself the freedom to simply play. You don't have to care about color theory when you are fingerpainting (metaphorically.)

When you feel the drive to be productive, it is probably better for you & certainly does more good for the world to put that toward others' benefit in civic engagement, volunteering, teaching, etc than in mastering a personal hobby for mastery's sake alone (that is to say, if you are not enjoying the journey.) I used to think I wanted to master a dozen instruments, languages, & skills until I realized it was just old baggage - what I really wanted was to feel "good enough" to earn parental affection, out of a child's fear of finding myself unsupported. Now I can support myself, so I feel a lot more relaxed about proving I'm exceptional.

... I sort of internalized this belief that women only want men who have money and nice jobs and I needed this in order to be loved romantically. So another reason I have not quit my job after working for 21 years is I'm afraid my wife, and society in general, won't see my value anymore.

I know it doesn't make much sense, because I know several women who are attracted to men with no jobs or money, so it has just become another false belief I need to get rid of. ...

I'm sorry you had to grow up with that narrative of conditional love. I hope you've had a chance to talk about it with your wife & establish whether there's any reality to the fear when it comes to your own marriage. While less extreme I was exposed to the same messaging growing up & took on some of the same baggage, but somehow (I guess because I was the "strong" one?) reversed the genders & ended up supporting all the men in my life. I've never seen low income as unattractive in a man but bad financial management or lack of motivation to create a high quality of life on whatever means are what send me for the door.

[TreeLeaf]

Yeah - I have talked to my wife about it.

I don't think she would divorce me if I quit my job, but she also has never worked a traditional job in her life and made it clear she never has any intentions of working a job and expects me to provide for her financially her entire life.

She also would not marry me if I could not provide for her and our family together.

So it certainly feels that if I had no job or money she would replace me with some other guy.

Which makes early retirement even more risky for me, I think, because running out of money entails losing more than just my things.

[iluvzbeach]

Wow, TreeLeaf. Reading what you wrote is so sad. I hope you’re in a happy marriage. Your wife’s take on things puts so much pressure on you. I don’t think I could handle such a situation.

How does her stance on things make you feel?

[JupiterGreen]

Yeah - I have talked to my wife about it.

I don't think she would divorce me if I quit my job, but she also has never worked a traditional job in her life and made it clear she never has any intentions of working a job and expects me to provide for her financially her entire life.

She also would not marry me if I could not provide for her and our family together.

So it certainly feels that if I had no job or money she would replace me with some other guy.

Which makes early retirement even more risky for me, I think, because running out of money entails losing more than just my things.

This is concerning. The patriarchy is partially at fault here, but also I think you have a relationship problem. I am going to suggest therapy to you too. Have you spoken candidly with your wife about this issue? Does she insists on a certain income level? Is she onboard with FIRE at all? You might be incompatibly paired. That probably sucks to hear, but you might do better without her if your philosophies are so different.

[Metalcat]

Yeah - I have talked to my wife about it.

I don't think she would divorce me if I quit my job, but she also has never worked a traditional job in her life and made it clear she never has any intentions of working a job and expects me to provide for her financially her entire life.

She also would not marry me if I could not provide for her and our family together.

So it certainly feels that if I had no job or money she would replace me with some other guy.

Which makes early retirement even more risky for me, I think, because running out of money entails losing more than just my things.

This is concerning. The patriarchy is partially at fault here, but also I think you have a relationship problem. I am going to suggest therapy to you too. Have you spoken candidly with your wife about this issue? Does she insists on a certain income level? Is she onboard with FIRE at all? You might be incompatibly paired. That probably sucks to hear, but you might do better without her if your philosophies are so different.

TreeLeaf's posts can come off a lot more red flaggy than they really are. He's had a very complex history of beyond extreme childhood trauma, which he's been very open about on the forums.

So I get why you are interpreting his posts in the way that you are, but chances are the situation is a little different than it seems on the surface.

Although you are right, TreeLeaf really would benefit from some top notch therapy, which is something we've discussed fairly extensively. But overall, their life and marriage actually sounds remarkably healthy and functional considering everything they've gone through and all of the wounds and scars he still has.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like she might actually be a very caring and understanding person based on other things he's said about his marriage and their dynamic. Again, I'm working on limited info on that front, but I don't think she's quite as that post makes her sound.

[TreeLeaf]

Yeah - I have talked to my wife about it.

I don't think she would divorce me if I quit my job, but she also has never worked a traditional job in her life and made it clear she never has any intentions of working a job and expects me to provide for her financially her entire life.

She also would not marry me if I could not provide for her and our family together.

So it certainly feels that if I had no job or money she would replace me with some other guy.

Which makes early retirement even more risky for me, I think, because running out of money entails losing more than just my things.

This is concerning. The patriarchy is partially at fault here, but also I think you have a relationship problem. I am going to suggest therapy to you too. Have you spoken candidly with your wife about this issue? Does she insists on a certain income level? Is she onboard with FIRE at all? You might be incompatibly paired. That probably sucks to hear, but you might do better without her if your philosophies are so different.

TreeLeaf's posts can come off a lot more red flaggy than they really are. He's had a very complex history of beyond extreme childhood trauma, which he's been very open about on the forums.

So I get why you are interpreting his posts in the way that you are, but chances are the situation is a little different than it seems on the surface.

Although you are right, TreeLeaf really would benefit from some top notch therapy, which is something we've discussed fairly extensively. But overall, their life and marriage actually sounds remarkably healthy and functional considering everything they've gone through and all of the wounds and scars he still has.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like she might actually be a very caring and understanding person based on other things he's said about his marriage and their dynamic. Again, I'm working on limited info on that front, but I don't think she's quite as that post makes her sound.

Yeah - @Metalcat summary is pretty spot on.

I am not very good socially and have a traumatic past and have a bad habit of thinking about things, and then saying things that are more negative than they really are. I am prone to depressive thinking and mental illness, which runs extensively in my biological family.

My wife and I have been together for 20 years and got together in high school. We have a good marriage - she just always said she "wanted a 1950s style relationship". This includes her not working a traditional job and focusing on raising our children.

She has never worked, but is very frugal. We have 1.5 million dollars and 4 kids together.

I would never leave her. I would be lost emotionally as she has helped me overcome a lot of severe emotional trauma...

And yes - I could use therapy. I am somewhat scared of therapists and doctors, as a therapist was the original reason children services started investigating my family as a child. So I have some distrust of therapists in general.

ETA: A marriage counselor originally reported my parents to the police based on what she heard in the counselling sessions. I assume they have a legal obligation to do this in certain scenarios where people are in danger.

I could probably use some anonymous therapy, lol. I am already scared of therapists, and if a therapist knew how extensive mental illness runs in my family and what some of my family members have done they would probably be scared of me also.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

I second or third or w/e  (lost count) the recommendation for therapy and resolving childhood trauma.   What I think hasn't been explored is that is probably a mistake to FIRE before getting that therapy and getting to good place with your past.  An extra 50+ hours a week (more?!?) to dwell on the past without any new coping skills isn't going to be a panacea, it is going to become a burden.

Pulling the trigger on FIRE is kind of traumatic.  If you have underlying trauma coping issues, that is going to trigger it.  Or not, I'm not a therapist but I do recall my decompression period had me revisiting a lot of stuff my high school days (which were kind of traumatic) and some existential/identity crises issues.  YMMV but your fundamental problem isn't about working/retiring in my estimation, it is about coming to terms with your childhood. 

[Metalcat]

Yeah - I have talked to my wife about it.

I don't think she would divorce me if I quit my job, but she also has never worked a traditional job in her life and made it clear she never has any intentions of working a job and expects me to provide for her financially her entire life.

She also would not marry me if I could not provide for her and our family together.

So it certainly feels that if I had no job or money she would replace me with some other guy.

Which makes early retirement even more risky for me, I think, because running out of money entails losing more than just my things.

This is concerning. The patriarchy is partially at fault here, but also I think you have a relationship problem. I am going to suggest therapy to you too. Have you spoken candidly with your wife about this issue? Does she insists on a certain income level? Is she onboard with FIRE at all? You might be incompatibly paired. That probably sucks to hear, but you might do better without her if your philosophies are so different.

TreeLeaf's posts can come off a lot more red flaggy than they really are. He's had a very complex history of beyond extreme childhood trauma, which he's been very open about on the forums.

So I get why you are interpreting his posts in the way that you are, but chances are the situation is a little different than it seems on the surface.

Although you are right, TreeLeaf really would benefit from some top notch therapy, which is something we've discussed fairly extensively. But overall, their life and marriage actually sounds remarkably healthy and functional considering everything they've gone through and all of the wounds and scars he still has.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like she might actually be a very caring and understanding person based on other things he's said about his marriage and their dynamic. Again, I'm working on limited info on that front, but I don't think she's quite as that post makes her sound.

Yeah - @Metalcat summary is pretty spot on.

I am not very good socially and have a traumatic past and have a bad habit of thinking about things, and then saying things that are more negative than they really are. I am prone to depressive thinking and mental illness, which runs extensively in my biological family.

My wife and I have been together for 20 years and got together in high school. We have a good marriage - she just always said she "wanted a 1950s style relationship". This includes her not working a traditional job and focusing on raising our children.

She has never worked, but is very frugal. We have 1.5 million dollars and 4 kids together.

I would never leave her. I would be lost emotionally as she has helped me overcome a lot of severe emotional trauma...

And yes - I could use therapy. I am somewhat scared of therapists and doctors, as a therapist was the original reason children services started investigating my family as a child. So I have some distrust of therapists in general.

ETA: A marriage counselor originally reported my parents to the police based on what she heard in the counselling sessions. I assume they have a legal obligation to do this in certain scenarios where people are in danger.

I could probably use some anonymous therapy, lol. I am already scared of therapists, and if a therapist knew how extensive mental illness runs in my family and what some of my family members have done they would probably be scared of me also.

No qualified therapist would be scared of you. Mental illness is literally what they train to deal with.

My therapist spent 30 years working in the prison system exclusively talking to people far worse off than you and I are. I guarantee there are counsellors who wouldn't bat at eyelash at what you have to say.

For sure, you should actively look for someone who has relevant experience. You won't likely be a good fit with someone who grew up in the suburbs who lived a pretty easy life and went straight from undergrad to a master's in counselling and has only just started working and maybe did their practicum at an elementary school.

No, not every therapist will be a good fit, and you will certainly want one with relevant experience. But I guarantee you that PLENTY of therapists are highly qualified and totally comfortable handling cases like yours.

I used to live with a clinical psychologist who worked exclusively with repeat sex offenders. There was literally no human behaviour that could faze that guy. Another social worker counselling friend works primarily with street level sex workers.

The world is absolutely jam packed with people who are WAY MORE fucked up than you are and therapists spend a lot of time with them.

It's time to bite the bullet and try to actually find a good therapist who can actually help you. I know for a fact that you desperately want to understand yourself and work on these things. A really good therapist is your best bet.

So go find one.

[TreeLeaf]

Yeah - I have talked to my wife about it.

I don't think she would divorce me if I quit my job, but she also has never worked a traditional job in her life and made it clear she never has any intentions of working a job and expects me to provide for her financially her entire life.

She also would not marry me if I could not provide for her and our family together.

So it certainly feels that if I had no job or money she would replace me with some other guy.

Which makes early retirement even more risky for me, I think, because running out of money entails losing more than just my things.

This is concerning. The patriarchy is partially at fault here, but also I think you have a relationship problem. I am going to suggest therapy to you too. Have you spoken candidly with your wife about this issue? Does she insists on a certain income level? Is she onboard with FIRE at all? You might be incompatibly paired. That probably sucks to hear, but you might do better without her if your philosophies are so different.

TreeLeaf's posts can come off a lot more red flaggy than they really are. He's had a very complex history of beyond extreme childhood trauma, which he's been very open about on the forums.

So I get why you are interpreting his posts in the way that you are, but chances are the situation is a little different than it seems on the surface.

Although you are right, TreeLeaf really would benefit from some top notch therapy, which is something we've discussed fairly extensively. But overall, their life and marriage actually sounds remarkably healthy and functional considering everything they've gone through and all of the wounds and scars he still has.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like she might actually be a very caring and understanding person based on other things he's said about his marriage and their dynamic. Again, I'm working on limited info on that front, but I don't think she's quite as that post makes her sound.

Yeah - @Metalcat summary is pretty spot on.

I am not very good socially and have a traumatic past and have a bad habit of thinking about things, and then saying things that are more negative than they really are. I am prone to depressive thinking and mental illness, which runs extensively in my biological family.

My wife and I have been together for 20 years and got together in high school. We have a good marriage - she just always said she "wanted a 1950s style relationship". This includes her not working a traditional job and focusing on raising our children.

She has never worked, but is very frugal. We have 1.5 million dollars and 4 kids together.

I would never leave her. I would be lost emotionally as she has helped me overcome a lot of severe emotional trauma...

And yes - I could use therapy. I am somewhat scared of therapists and doctors, as a therapist was the original reason children services started investigating my family as a child. So I have some distrust of therapists in general.

ETA: A marriage counselor originally reported my parents to the police based on what she heard in the counselling sessions. I assume they have a legal obligation to do this in certain scenarios where people are in danger.

I could probably use some anonymous therapy, lol. I am already scared of therapists, and if a therapist knew how extensive mental illness runs in my family and what some of my family members have done they would probably be scared of me also.

No qualified therapist would be scared of you. Mental illness is literally what they train to deal with.

My therapist spent 30 years working in the prison system exclusively talking to people far worse off than you and I are. I guarantee there are counsellors who wouldn't bat at eyelash at what you have to say.

For sure, you should actively look for someone who has relevant experience. You won't likely be a good fit with someone who grew up in the suburbs who lived a pretty easy life and went straight from undergrad to a master's in counselling and has only just started working and maybe did their practicum at an elementary school.

No, not every therapist will be a good fit, and you will certainly want one with relevant experience. But I guarantee you that PLENTY of therapists are highly qualified and totally comfortable handling cases like yours.

I used to live with a clinical psychologist who worked exclusively with repeat sex offenders. There was literally no human behaviour that could faze that guy. Another social worker counselling friend works primarily with street level sex workers.

The world is absolutely jam packed with people who are WAY MORE fucked up than you are and therapists spend a lot of time with them.

It's time to bite the bullet and try to actually find a good therapist who can actually help you. I know for a fact that you desperately want to understand yourself and work on these things. A really good therapist is your best bet.

So go find one.

Well...sure - I am sure there are a LOT of people more screwed up than I am, considering I have no criminal record to speak of and am a self-made millionaire who can change his own brakes and develop multi-million dollar software. Sorry that was just a poor shitty excuse for me to not do therapy which you saw through.

I just don't have any confidence that therapy will make me a happy person. I'm convinced my problem is...more of a chemical or hormonal or energy problem or something.

Why do I say this?

When I am depressed - it isn't just a sadness. I get intensely depressed, tired, have brain fog, can't sleep, focus or remember things. I can't think or solve problems, I randomly cry and become emotional, I can't focus. Even driving to a store I have to remind myself several times where I am going. I also become bloated, have horrible gas, and develop headaches. I'm not sure if this is something therapy can solve, and no amount of happy thoughts can make me happy when I'm going through one of these episodes.

I don't have any medical training though, and describing my symptoms to my doctor results in him suggesting I have heart burn...? Or he wants to give me SSRIs...which maybe I should try again.

I mean - does repressed childhood trauma really surface decades later as intense physical symptoms along with depression and random crying episodes?

Does childhood trauma cause bloating and abdominal pain and intense headaches?

Does the mind really have this much control over the body?

[Metalcat]

Yes. A hallmark of childhood trauma is serious physical symptoms. That's classic.

Get a therapist.

[Villanelle]

Yeah - I have talked to my wife about it.

I don't think she would divorce me if I quit my job, but she also has never worked a traditional job in her life and made it clear she never has any intentions of working a job and expects me to provide for her financially her entire life.

She also would not marry me if I could not provide for her and our family together.

So it certainly feels that if I had no job or money she would replace me with some other guy.

Which makes early retirement even more risky for me, I think, because running out of money entails losing more than just my things.

This is concerning. The patriarchy is partially at fault here, but also I think you have a relationship problem. I am going to suggest therapy to you too. Have you spoken candidly with your wife about this issue? Does she insists on a certain income level? Is she onboard with FIRE at all? You might be incompatibly paired. That probably sucks to hear, but you might do better without her if your philosophies are so different.

TreeLeaf's posts can come off a lot more red flaggy than they really are. He's had a very complex history of beyond extreme childhood trauma, which he's been very open about on the forums.

So I get why you are interpreting his posts in the way that you are, but chances are the situation is a little different than it seems on the surface.

Although you are right, TreeLeaf really would benefit from some top notch therapy, which is something we've discussed fairly extensively. But overall, their life and marriage actually sounds remarkably healthy and functional considering everything they've gone through and all of the wounds and scars he still has.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like she might actually be a very caring and understanding person based on other things he's said about his marriage and their dynamic. Again, I'm working on limited info on that front, but I don't think she's quite as that post makes her sound.

Yeah - @Metalcat summary is pretty spot on.

I am not very good socially and have a traumatic past and have a bad habit of thinking about things, and then saying things that are more negative than they really are. I am prone to depressive thinking and mental illness, which runs extensively in my biological family.

My wife and I have been together for 20 years and got together in high school. We have a good marriage - she just always said she "wanted a 1950s style relationship". This includes her not working a traditional job and focusing on raising our children.

She has never worked, but is very frugal. We have 1.5 million dollars and 4 kids together.

I would never leave her. I would be lost emotionally as she has helped me overcome a lot of severe emotional trauma...

And yes - I could use therapy. I am somewhat scared of therapists and doctors, as a therapist was the original reason children services started investigating my family as a child. So I have some distrust of therapists in general.

ETA: A marriage counselor originally reported my parents to the police based on what she heard in the counselling sessions. I assume they have a legal obligation to do this in certain scenarios where people are in danger.

I could probably use some anonymous therapy, lol. I am already scared of therapists, and if a therapist knew how extensive mental illness runs in my family and what some of my family members have done they would probably be scared of me also.

No qualified therapist would be scared of you. Mental illness is literally what they train to deal with.

My therapist spent 30 years working in the prison system exclusively talking to people far worse off than you and I are. I guarantee there are counsellors who wouldn't bat at eyelash at what you have to say.

For sure, you should actively look for someone who has relevant experience. You won't likely be a good fit with someone who grew up in the suburbs who lived a pretty easy life and went straight from undergrad to a master's in counselling and has only just started working and maybe did their practicum at an elementary school.

No, not every therapist will be a good fit, and you will certainly want one with relevant experience. But I guarantee you that PLENTY of therapists are highly qualified and totally comfortable handling cases like yours.

I used to live with a clinical psychologist who worked exclusively with repeat sex offenders. There was literally no human behaviour that could faze that guy. Another social worker counselling friend works primarily with street level sex workers.

The world is absolutely jam packed with people who are WAY MORE fucked up than you are and therapists spend a lot of time with them.

It's time to bite the bullet and try to actually find a good therapist who can actually help you. I know for a fact that you desperately want to understand yourself and work on these things. A really good therapist is your best bet.

So go find one.

Well...sure - I am sure there are a LOT of people more screwed up than I am, considering I have no criminal record to speak of and am a self-made millionaire who can change his own brakes and develop multi-million dollar software. Sorry that was just a poor shitty excuse for me to not do therapy which you saw through.

I just don't have any confidence that therapy will make me a happy person. I'm convinced my problem is...more of a chemical or hormonal or energy problem or something.

Why do I say this?

When I am depressed - it isn't just a sadness. I get intensely depressed, tired, have brain fog, can't sleep, focus or remember things. I can't think or solve problems, I randomly cry and become emotional, I can't focus. Even driving to a store I have to remind myself several times where I am going. I also become bloated, have horrible gas, and develop headaches. I'm not sure if this is something therapy can solve, and no amount of happy thoughts can make me happy when I'm going through one of these episodes.

I don't have any medical training though, and describing my symptoms to my doctor results in him suggesting I have heart burn...? Or he wants to give me SSRIs...which maybe I should try again.

I mean - does repressed childhood trauma really surface decades later as intense physical symptoms along with depression and random crying episodes?

Does childhood trauma cause bloating and abdominal pain and intense headaches?

Does the mind really have this much control over the body?

Does not-therapy make you especially happy?    I mean, sure, it's possible that therapy won't increase your happiness level. But it's also possible it will.  And it doesn't seem like you are especially content and overjoyed with things as they are. 

Also, what MCat said. 

[Financial.Velociraptor]

@TreeLeaf GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO!    You are clearly willing to explore what it takes to improve your life.  If you are religious/spiritual at all... I am praying to the Son of Man (who is Jesus the Christ) for your best outcome.

You got this!

[Reader]

With that as my guiding principle, it makes figuring out what to do with my time suuuuuper easy. So the basics for quality of life come first, and always come first above all other priorities:
-Sleep
-Exercise
-Nutrition
-Maintaining my home
-Connecting with loved ones
-Fostering good mental health

... If not you, then why the hell not??

i'm a couple of years out from pulling the plug, so thanks for the slogan - "why the hell not?" haha.

[lhamo]

I stopped listening to Dave Ramsey a couple of years ago, but I do still listen to one of his newer people -- Dr. John Delony.  I think his approach might help you get a different/better perspective on therapy. 

I have CPTSD (combo of some traumatic childhood/adolescent stuff + several serious car accidents including two rollovers).  The two times in my adult life that my trauma symptoms went through the roof were when I was leaving jobs under circumstances that triggered me (yes, my attachment issues spilled over into work...) and contemplating FIRE.  The first time I ended up going back to work and found a more functional/empathetic environment in which to do so, and that actually was better for me than therapy (helped me find a purpose and rebuild my self esteem that had been torn to shred by an abusive (I think socipathic) boss in an extremely dysfunctional organization (that liked to think of itself as a "family", ironically enough -- which I guess it was if you were from the mafia...).  The second time FIRE stuck but my marriage didn't (long story, its a good thing in the end but there were some rough years).

Bessel van Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score is one of the classics in the field.  Peter Walker's stuff is also very good at showing how trauma is imprinted on the brain/nervous system and how you need to work with the body as well as the mind in order to heal.

[JupiterGreen]

Yes. A hallmark of childhood trauma is serious physical symptoms. That's classic.

Get a therapist.

Thank you for the explanation Malcat.

@TreeLeaf you might want to read the book The Body Keeps Score. There has been a lot of research on this topic and yes, as Malcat stated, there are residual physical and mental impacts from childhood trauma/abuse/neglect. As far as therapy goes, you could look into telehealth (this is done from your computer at home) so you don't have to go into an office. This is my preferred method of therapy. If I may suggest looking for someone who deals specifically with childhood trauma, CPTSD and you may also benefit from EMDR. Perhaps the SSRIs are worth another try too, but why not look into therapy first. The hardest thing about therapy is to find a good one, don't be afraid to try a few people. Here is a good place to search for therapists:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/counsellors

good luck

[JupiterGreen]

I stopped listening to Dave Ramsey a couple of years ago, but I do still listen to one of his newer people -- Dr. John Delony.  I think his approach might help you get a different/better perspective on therapy. 

I have CPTSD (combo of some traumatic childhood/adolescent stuff + several serious car accidents including two rollovers).  The two times in my adult life that my trauma symptoms went through the roof were when I was leaving jobs under circumstances that triggered me (yes, my attachment issues spilled over into work...) and contemplating FIRE.  The first time I ended up going back to work and found a more functional/empathetic environment in which to do so, and that actually was better for me than therapy (helped me find a purpose and rebuild my self esteem that had been torn to shred by an abusive (I think socipathic) boss in an extremely dysfunctional organization (that liked to think of itself as a "family", ironically enough -- which I guess it was if you were from the mafia...).  The second time FIRE stuck but my marriage didn't (long story, its a good thing in the end but there were some rough years).

Bessel van Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score is one of the classics in the field.  Peter Walker's stuff is also very good at showing how trauma is imprinted on the brain/nervous system and how you need to work with the body as well as the mind in order to heal.

my apologies @lhamo I did not read your whole response before I responded. I read Dave Ramsey and quickly moved one haha (I'm not a big fan of him). This is a great response, apologies for the redundancy. I'll keep my post up for the link

[Metalcat]

Yes. A hallmark of childhood trauma is serious physical symptoms. That's classic.

Get a therapist.

Thank you for the explanation Malcat.

@TreeLeaf you might want to read the book The Body Keeps Score. There has been a lot of research on this topic and yes, as Malcat stated, there are residual physical and mental impacts from childhood trauma/abuse/neglect. As far as therapy goes, you could look into telehealth (this is done from your computer at home) so you don't have to go into an office. This is my preferred method of therapy. If I may suggest looking for someone who deals specifically with childhood trauma, CPTSD and you may also benefit from EMDR. Perhaps the SSRIs are worth another try too, but why not look into therapy first. The hardest thing about therapy is to find a good one, don't be afraid to try a few people. Here is a good place to search for therapists:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/counsellors

good luck

I also prefer virtual therapy.

When the pandemic started and all of my appointments converted to phone appointments, I was suddenly so much happier with therapy.

For me, I'm so used to being the clinician in a face to face clinical encounter, it turns out I have a hard time not going into "clinician" mode when I'm in that context.

Suddenly during phone therapy I could feel more authentically like me because I was just walking slow circles outside in a soccer field next to my home. I was suddenly much more comfortable being more confrontational, getting openly frustrated with my therapist, and even being a bit whiny sometimes.

Basically, I felt more free to be a human being when my reflex to "be a clinician" wasn't being triggered by the face-to-face dynamic of in person therapy.

I've talked to a lot of people who now prefer virtual sessions, it's not unusual. It's also why I intend to only offer virtual therapy once I start working.

[dblaace]

I watched this today. I think I'm circling between 2 and 3.

The 4 phases of retirement | Dr. Riley Moynes | TEDxSurrey
https://youtu.be/DMHMOQ_054U

[Turtle]

[/quote]

Well...sure - I am sure there are a LOT of people more screwed up than I am, considering I have no criminal record to speak of and am a self-made millionaire who can change his own brakes and develop multi-million dollar software. Sorry that was just a poor shitty excuse for me to not do therapy which you saw through.

I just don't have any confidence that therapy will make me a happy person. I'm convinced my problem is...more of a chemical or hormonal or energy problem or something.

Why do I say this?

When I am depressed - it isn't just a sadness. I get intensely depressed, tired, have brain fog, can't sleep, focus or remember things. I can't think or solve problems, I randomly cry and become emotional, I can't focus. Even driving to a store I have to remind myself several times where I am going. I also become bloated, have horrible gas, and develop headaches. I'm not sure if this is something therapy can solve, and no amount of happy thoughts can make me happy when I'm going through one of these episodes.

I don't have any medical training though, and describing my symptoms to my doctor results in him suggesting I have heart burn...? Or he wants to give me SSRIs...which maybe I should try again.

I mean - does repressed childhood trauma really surface decades later as intense physical symptoms along with depression and random crying episodes?

Does childhood trauma cause bloating and abdominal pain and intense headaches?

Does the mind really have this much control over the body?
[/quote]

Depression and stress both cause inflammation which causes/aggravates all of those issues.  Depression, stress and inflammation all interact with each other in ways that compound the issues.

What you've described can also be burnout symptoms. 

If your company offers an EAP option, another possible option to start with would be to see someone to help with stress reduction techniques.  Those are always good tools to add to your toolbox, so to speak.  In the process of those meetings, you'd have the chance to better evaluate potential usefulness of continuing with that person or maybe finding someone else who would be a better fit for therapy.

I have similar reactions to depression & stress, so your descriptions sound very familiar to me. 

In my personal case - inflammation and brain fog symptoms were aggravated further by food sensitivity issues of which I was unaware.  Given the bloating and cramps you have described, you may want to get tested for allergies/food sensitivity or try an elimination diet or anti-inflammatory diet to see if it helps.

[TreeLeaf]

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for the support and kind words. 

I have no real idea what is causing my random episodes of extreme fatigue, depression, bloating and abdominal pain, headaches, etc.

It's hard for me to say if it is some sort of inflammation, IBD, burnout, depression, or the result of severe childhood trauma.

It isn't a constant thing though and I am generally happy and well. I have good days and bad days, but am generally less happy than most people. I'm not going to describe the childhood trauma here. If someone really wants to know they can look at my journal.

My wife and I have always had a good relationship. She just never wanted or wants to work a traditional job and wanted a 1950s style relationship. This is what she wanted since she was 10 years old. She has always been against the idea of her working a traditional job.

Throughout our relationship a surprising number of people have taken issue with this. Everything from she must be using me for my money, to I am abusing her because she does most of the child raising work while I have a career and do the taxes and change the car oil and take out the trash and get groceries and whatnot.

Some people have even said I am holding her back because she did not want to go to college or work a traditional job, and clearly I enabled her to not have to do these things.

It seems almost like - being a housewife and mother aren't even considered valuable or respected roles anymore in our society.

Anyway - thanks everyone. This has given me more things to ponder and another book to add to my books to read list. :)

[Metalcat]

Anyway - thanks everyone. This has given me more things to ponder and another book to add to my books to read list. :)

You've read enough books, it's time to stop reading the words of mental health professionals and to go talk to a mental health professional.

You can't get what you get from therapy by reading books.

[TreeLeaf]

Anyway - thanks everyone. This has given me more things to ponder and another book to add to my books to read list. :)

You've read enough books, it's time to stop reading the words of mental health professionals and to go talk to a mental health professional.

You can't get what you get from therapy by reading books.

Yes - but I LOVE reading books and dislike talking to mental health professionals...It seems like yet another to do item to add to my generally hectic life that I don't really have the mental bandwidth to tackle right now.

[JupiterGreen]

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for the support and kind words. 

I have no real idea what is causing my random episodes of extreme fatigue, depression, bloating and abdominal pain, headaches, etc.

It's hard for me to say if it is some sort of inflammation, IBD, burnout, depression, or the result of severe childhood trauma.

It isn't a constant thing though and I am generally happy and well. I have good days and bad days, but am generally less happy than most people. I'm not going to describe the childhood trauma here. If someone really wants to know they can look at my journal.

My wife and I have always had a good relationship. She just never wanted or wants to work a traditional job and wanted a 1950s style relationship. This is what she wanted since she was 10 years old. She has always been against the idea of her working a traditional job.

Throughout our relationship a surprising number of people have taken issue with this. Everything from she must be using me for my money, to I am abusing her because she does most of the child raising work while I have a career and do the taxes and change the car oil and take out the trash and get groceries and whatnot.

Some people have even said I am holding her back because she did not want to go to college or work a traditional job, and clearly I enabled her to not have to do these things.

It seems almost like - being a housewife and mother aren't even considered valuable or respected roles anymore in our society.

Anyway - thanks everyone. This has given me more things to ponder and another book to add to my books to read list. :)

I don't think the housewife lacking value statement is true. The issue people have is being forced via patriarchal expectations. If she's good and you're good, other people's opinions don't matter. But I'm not surprised people question it given this is an ongoing struggle that seems to be getting worse (women are unequal all over the world and we just lost body autonomy in the US), being owned as property and forced into certain undesirable situations throughout history--it's a deep scar for us.

On another topic, if you've ever had your genetics run see if you have the MTHFR gene mutation. If you are in the US all flour (except organic) is fortified with folic acid and if you have the gene mutation your body can't process the vitamin as folic acid (it needs it in the form of folate). I'm convinced this is responsible for the uptick in people who think they have celiacs. Flour in Europe doesn't have this fortification, I wish we could do away with it in the states. Anyway, check that out, it can result in some of the symptoms you described. I'm not a doctor and may have explained it terribly, but the gist is there for you to research further if you'd like. take care

[Metalcat]

Anyway - thanks everyone. This has given me more things to ponder and another book to add to my books to read list. :)

You've read enough books, it's time to stop reading the words of mental health professionals and to go talk to a mental health professional.

You can't get what you get from therapy by reading books.

Yes - but I LOVE reading books and dislike talking to mental health professionals...It seems like yet another to do item to add to my generally hectic life that I don't really have the mental bandwidth to tackle right now.

You had time to read an entire neuroscience textbook that I recommended to you and you talk all the time about how your job isn't demanding.

I'm going to keep harping on this until you do it.

[Omy]

DH had several of your symptoms and now has to take vitamin D regularly. You may have some sort of deficiency that you can be tested for.

[TreeLeaf]

Anyway - thanks everyone. This has given me more things to ponder and another book to add to my books to read list. :)

You've read enough books, it's time to stop reading the words of mental health professionals and to go talk to a mental health professional.

You can't get what you get from therapy by reading books.

Yes - but I LOVE reading books and dislike talking to mental health professionals...It seems like yet another to do item to add to my generally hectic life that I don't really have the mental bandwidth to tackle right now.

You had time to read an entire neuroscience textbook that I recommended to you and you talk all the time about how your job isn't demanding.

I'm going to keep harping on this until you do it.

It is significantly easier and less mental effort for me to read an academic textbook or develop software than to talk about my feelings. Me having a crying session is both very needed and also wipes me out mentally for the rest of the day.

But yes - please continue harping.  It is appreciated. One guy spent five years telling me I should start running before I started running. I still thank him for it to this day.

I am just absurdly stubborn about taking the medicine.

[Kris]

Anyway - thanks everyone. This has given me more things to ponder and another book to add to my books to read list. :)

You've read enough books, it's time to stop reading the words of mental health professionals and to go talk to a mental health professional.

You can't get what you get from therapy by reading books.

Yes - but I LOVE reading books and dislike talking to mental health professionals...It seems like yet another to do item to add to my generally hectic life that I don't really have the mental bandwidth to tackle right now.

You had time to read an entire neuroscience textbook that I recommended to you and you talk all the time about how your job isn't demanding.

I'm going to keep harping on this until you do it.

It is significantly easier and less mental effort for me to read an academic textbook or develop software than to talk about my feelings. Me having a crying session is both very needed and also wipes me out mentally for the rest of the day.

But yes - please continue harping.  It is appreciated. One guy spent five years telling me I should start running before I started running. I still thank him for it to this day.

I am just absurdly stubborn about taking the medicine.

You're very invested in being stubborn and unwilling to make needed changes. From your posts it sounds almost as though you are proud of it. That's also something to explore in therapy. Which you desperately need.

Go to therapy.

[GilesMM]

It is significantly easier and less mental effort for me to read an academic textbook or develop software than to talk about my feelings. Me having a crying session is both very needed and also wipes me out mentally for the rest of the day.

But yes - please continue harping.  It is appreciated. One guy spent five years telling me I should start running before I started running. I still thank him for it to this day.

I am just absurdly stubborn about taking the medicine.

How often and how far do you run?  How do you feel during? After?

[TreeLeaf]

It is significantly easier and less mental effort for me to read an academic textbook or develop software than to talk about my feelings. Me having a crying session is both very needed and also wipes me out mentally for the rest of the day.

But yes - please continue harping.  It is appreciated. One guy spent five years telling me I should start running before I started running. I still thank him for it to this day.

I am just absurdly stubborn about taking the medicine.

How often and how far do you run?  How do you feel during? After?

Last year I was running 1 mile everyday in the morning on the street, then 2-3 miles every other week or so in the woods. I have more energy after running.

I got sick in December though and have not started running again yet this year.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

Then I was in therapy during my late teen years but the general experience was not good. They put me on SSRIs which made me feel numb emotionally, and just sort of blah.

I have Tourette's Syndrome.  I take SSRIs for that.  When I first got diagnosed, the neurologist put me on SSRIs.  I hated them.  He tried different drugs.  I hated those too and one even gave me suicidal ideation.  I took ownership personally on finding the right treatment for me. I kept a several times daily "medication log" where I noted my general sense of well being, level of side effects at morning, noon, night, before/after meals; basically tracked everything.  This was helpful in persuading the neurologist when he thought the side effects were justified by the reduced ticks and calming effect.  I had documentation that it was "unacceptable to ME". 

It took more than a year but I now take 40 milligrams of flouxetine (originally known as Prozac) and 1 mg of Orap (Pimozide) to suppress the side effects of the first.   My tics are largely undercontrol.  I can relax.  The general malaise from the flouxetine is gone with the Orap.  Life is 1000X better with the right meds.  Encourage you to try again.

Also - get therapy *FACEPUNCH*

[Omy]

On another thread, you mentioned that you could FIRE instead of hoarding more money but that you keep working because it's so easy.

At the risk of piling on...What if you stopped hoarding money and instead invested your time and energy into your mental health? If you weren't working, you'd have the bandwidth to actually improve your life - probably in dramatic ways.

I suggest this as someone who used to use work as an excuse to avoid dealing with my issues. Staying busy might be your way of "keeping the demons away."

[Metalcat]

Anyway - thanks everyone. This has given me more things to ponder and another book to add to my books to read list. :)

You've read enough books, it's time to stop reading the words of mental health professionals and to go talk to a mental health professional.

You can't get what you get from therapy by reading books.

Yes - but I LOVE reading books and dislike talking to mental health professionals...It seems like yet another to do item to add to my generally hectic life that I don't really have the mental bandwidth to tackle right now.

You had time to read an entire neuroscience textbook that I recommended to you and you talk all the time about how your job isn't demanding.

I'm going to keep harping on this until you do it.

It is significantly easier and less mental effort for me to read an academic textbook or develop software than to talk about my feelings. Me having a crying session is both very needed and also wipes me out mentally for the rest of the day.

But yes - please continue harping.  It is appreciated. One guy spent five years telling me I should start running before I started running. I still thank him for it to this day.

I am just absurdly stubborn about taking the medicine.

You're very invested in being stubborn and unwilling to make needed changes. From your posts it sounds almost as though you are proud of it. That's also something to explore in therapy. Which you desperately need.

Go to therapy.

I think TreeLeaf is about the furthest thing from proud of their issues, but they are an incredibly remarkable case of someone who has been through profoundly extreme trauma and developed adaptations as a result that have produced an incredibly functional life considering. Their issues are so core to their being that they've actually found pretty effective workarounds.

They have no right to be as functional and balanced as they are given their history, it's kind of amazing. But it does mean that every time they speak about themselves, it gives off a very bizarre impression, but when they write about not themselves, sounds well reasoned, balanced, and often quite insightful.

Sadly, with this particular history of trauma, aversion to professional help is one of the common symptoms. But TreeLeaf desperately wants help, and has sought resources from me in particular, so it's not a resistance to help, it's a resistance to the potential and very real risk of retraumatization by medical professionals.

The answer to that is obviously not avoidance, but as I said, that avoidance is an active symptom, so it's hard to overcome without the treatment that the person is avoiding. Kind of a vicious self-perpetuating cycle.

Out of context I may sound like I'm being harsh with TreeLeaf and getting impatient, but I'm not. My responses come from the unseen context of a lot of in depth engagement in PMs and in my journal. Every "go to fucking therapy" from me is said with a lot of love and pages and pages of supported explanation and discussion prefacing them.