Author Topic: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in  (Read 25403 times)

mboley

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2022, 09:54:45 PM »
The additional 3 yrs is definitely well received.  Spouse will go onto medicare in 3 yrs.  I'm expecting a huge cost increase at that time.  I'm 52, so I have a long time to get to medicare. 

Is there a site you use to perform future premium estimates?
Not that I know of, I just read a lot. Im in Ca so Covered California has always been good and I have past history to go on. When one spouse is on Medicare though the other is not eligible for any cost sharing subsidy, at least in Ca at our income level. Im estimating $800 for her and $200 for Medicare for me; Im probably low though since we're talking about future premiums.

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TempusFugit

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2022, 10:28:13 PM »
I don't know the numbers to do the maths but consider if we (US citizens) lived someplace with socialized medicine what the actual financial burden would have been over our working years to be paying the higher taxes associated with a socialized healthcare system. How does that compare with the higher costs we face - those of us with the luxury of contemplating years between employment with healthcare subsidies from our employer and medicare age?  I suspect that it works out in our favor.  We likely have more money due to the lower tax burdens in our working years that more than makes up for the increased costs during the 'gap' of post-employment to medicare age.   I honestly don't know but it would be interesting to see the calculation.   

bmjohnson35

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2022, 10:20:24 AM »
The additional 3 yrs is definitely well received.  Spouse will go onto medicare in 3 yrs.  I'm expecting a huge cost increase at that time.  I'm 52, so I have a long time to get to medicare. 

Is there a site you use to perform future premium estimates?
Not that I know of, I just read a lot. Im in Ca so Covered California has always been good and I have past history to go on. When one spouse is on Medicare though the other is not eligible for any cost sharing subsidy, at least in Ca at our income level. Im estimating $800 for her and $200 for Medicare for me; Im probably low though since we're talking about future premiums.

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I can estimate the next 3 yrs, but I have no idea how to forecast medicare. The little I have researched on medicare has only resulted in confusion.  Between inflation and policy changes, I figure there's no need to put too much time into it until we get closer. 

Money Badger

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2022, 08:51:59 PM »
Nobody has mentioned COBRA yet. If you work for a company with a health insurance, CA allows you stay on COBRA for 3 years. It can be a nice option when COBRA is cheaper than ACA.
COBRA from my employer was FAR higher than ACA in a partial working year I qualified for COBRA after a corporate RIF for a policy for a couple.   And to my knowledge for a FIRE individual, there's no ability to use a lower income level of 4X the federal poverty level to reduce the total outlay of a COBRA policy.   I'm curious what situations COBRA is actually cheaper?

Paul der Krake

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2022, 09:55:58 PM »
Nobody has mentioned COBRA yet. If you work for a company with a health insurance, CA allows you stay on COBRA for 3 years. It can be a nice option when COBRA is cheaper than ACA.
COBRA from my employer was FAR higher than ACA in a partial working year I qualified for COBRA after a corporate RIF for a policy for a couple.   And to my knowledge for a FIRE individual, there's no ability to use a lower income level of 4X the federal poverty level to reduce the total outlay of a COBRA policy.   I'm curious what situations COBRA is actually cheaper?
Any situation where the company plan is relatively cheap, or the ACA plans are relatively expensive, or a combination of both.

Company plans vary wildly in price based on how good they are, the demographics of the employee pool, etc. The full unsubsidized cost of my company's plan is pushing $1k/month, while my wife's company's plan is half that.

It just depends. I've looked at a lot of box 12 code DD (that's the box on your W-2 that discloses the true cost of the employee plan) over the years and it's been all over the map.

Another example is a place with very bad ACA options. The most expensive market for ACA plans last time I looked was some remote county in Alaska where premiums are something absurd like $1500/month. But if you work for an oil and gas company up there you're likely on a nationwide plan set up by the company and it's like, $600.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2022, 11:46:07 PM »
Nobody has mentioned COBRA yet. If you work for a company with a health insurance, CA allows you stay on COBRA for 3 years. It can be a nice option when COBRA is cheaper than ACA.
COBRA from my employer was FAR higher than ACA in a partial working year I qualified for COBRA after a corporate RIF for a policy for a couple.   And to my knowledge for a FIRE individual, there's no ability to use a lower income level of 4X the federal poverty level to reduce the total outlay of a COBRA policy.   I'm curious what situations COBRA is actually cheaper?

COBRA premiums are basically the unsubsidized version of your company's health insurance. The makeup of that company's risk pool plays a role. The younger and healthier the typical employee at that company is, the lower the premium will be. Furthermore the COBRA premium doesn't take your age into account, while ACA marketplace insurance definitely does. Therefore if you quit at a relatively old age from a relatively young company it's entirely possible that your COBRA insurance would look like a better deal than an unsubsidized plan from the ACA marketplace.

ixtap

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2022, 05:05:32 AM »
Nobody has mentioned COBRA yet. If you work for a company with a health insurance, CA allows you stay on COBRA for 3 years. It can be a nice option when COBRA is cheaper than ACA.
COBRA from my employer was FAR higher than ACA in a partial working year I qualified for COBRA after a corporate RIF for a policy for a couple.   And to my knowledge for a FIRE individual, there's no ability to use a lower income level of 4X the federal poverty level to reduce the total outlay of a COBRA policy.   I'm curious what situations COBRA is actually cheaper?

COBRA premiums are basically the unsubsidized version of your company's health insurance. The makeup of that company's risk pool plays a role. The younger and healthier the typical employee at that company is, the lower the premium will be. Furthermore the COBRA premium doesn't take your age into account, while ACA marketplace insurance definitely does. Therefore if you quit at a relatively old age from a relatively young company it's entirely possible that your COBRA insurance would look like a better deal than an unsubsidized plan from the ACA marketplace.

COBRA is almost identical to silver ACA plans for us, but the insurance itself is way better and the same premium includes both dental and vision. We are pretty sure that a big part of controlling the costs is that Megacorp is self insured, just administered by one of the big names.

bacchi

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2022, 05:20:50 PM »
I don't know the numbers to do the maths but consider if we (US citizens) lived someplace with socialized medicine what the actual financial burden would have been over our working years to be paying the higher taxes associated with a socialized healthcare system. How does that compare with the higher costs we face - those of us with the luxury of contemplating years between employment with healthcare subsidies from our employer and medicare age?  I suspect that it works out in our favor.  We likely have more money due to the lower tax burdens in our working years that more than makes up for the increased costs during the 'gap' of post-employment to medicare age.   I honestly don't know but it would be interesting to see the calculation.

It definitely doesn't work out for anyone retiring near full retirement age. US health care costs are that much more.

Consider that, best case, we (US citizens) pay 2x as much than any other country. From ages 22-42, we pay 2x while someone in the UK or France or Switzerland pays 1x. If we get subsidies to the tune of 1/2 of our premiums from 42-62, we'd pay 2x more (and the opportunity cost!). If we get full subsidies at 42, our payments would equal a total of 2x -- equivalent to other countries.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2022, 06:15:51 PM »
I don't know the numbers to do the maths but consider if we (US citizens) lived someplace with socialized medicine what the actual financial burden would have been over our working years to be paying the higher taxes associated with a socialized healthcare system. How does that compare with the higher costs we face - those of us with the luxury of contemplating years between employment with healthcare subsidies from our employer and medicare age?  I suspect that it works out in our favor.  We likely have more money due to the lower tax burdens in our working years that more than makes up for the increased costs during the 'gap' of post-employment to medicare age.   I honestly don't know but it would be interesting to see the calculation.

It definitely doesn't work out for anyone retiring near full retirement age. US health care costs are that much more.

Consider that, best case, we (US citizens) pay 2x as much than any other country. From ages 22-42, we pay 2x while someone in the UK or France or Switzerland pays 1x. If we get subsidies to the tune of 1/2 of our premiums from 42-62, we'd pay 2x more (and the opportunity cost!). If we get full subsidies at 42, our payments would equal a total of 2x -- equivalent to other countries.


Yep. Turns out that between Medicare and Medicaid and VA and government employee insurance and whatever else, the US federal government spends more per capita on health care than other countries that have a single-payer system. Then those of us insured outside these systems have to pay more besides. Our prices are just that much higher.

ixtap

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2022, 06:28:26 PM »
Folks need to understand that US costs are so much higher than other countries that there are travel policies that cover anywhere except the US.

TempusFugit

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2022, 09:07:19 AM »
I don't know the numbers to do the maths but consider if we (US citizens) lived someplace with socialized medicine what the actual financial burden would have been over our working years to be paying the higher taxes associated with a socialized healthcare system. How does that compare with the higher costs we face - those of us with the luxury of contemplating years between employment with healthcare subsidies from our employer and medicare age?  I suspect that it works out in our favor.  We likely have more money due to the lower tax burdens in our working years that more than makes up for the increased costs during the 'gap' of post-employment to medicare age.   I honestly don't know but it would be interesting to see the calculation.

It definitely doesn't work out for anyone retiring near full retirement age. US health care costs are that much more.

Consider that, best case, we (US citizens) pay 2x as much than any other country. From ages 22-42, we pay 2x while someone in the UK or France or Switzerland pays 1x. If we get subsidies to the tune of 1/2 of our premiums from 42-62, we'd pay 2x more (and the opportunity cost!). If we get full subsidies at 42, our payments would equal a total of 2x -- equivalent to other countries.


Yep. Turns out that between Medicare and Medicaid and VA and government employee insurance and whatever else, the US federal government spends more per capita on health care than other countries that have a single-payer system. Then those of us insured outside these systems have to pay more besides. Our prices are just that much higher.

I’m not sure what you are 2Xing.   We pay 2x for what?  We being individuals or the government? 

Certainly the total spending from all sources is higher in the US compared to other countries.  And our outcomes aren’t better.  Some of that, I believe is because the US is at the forefront in medical research and pharmaceutical development.  That carries a cost which is born by us here in the US and that other countries benefit from without the high cost of the R&D. 

If you compare taxes in the US with someplace like the UK which has a nationalized health care system, and extrapolate all of your working years paying those much higher taxes, how does that opportunity cost - the loss of investment return from the money you were not able to save - offset the higher costs we pay in the US for our health insurance and out of pocket?  As most of us know, compounding is a powerful force, and the loss of potential investment return over many years seems like it may well be significantly higher than the cost of expensive insurance in our later years. 

Another factor to consider is the actual availability of treatment in the US compared to someplace like the UK.  It is my understanding that for many procedures, such as knee replacement, there is a long wait time in places with nationalized systems.   Here in the US, you can get something like that very quickly.  My elderly mom, who is on medicare of course and also has supplemental insurance at a cost of ~$500/month has had multiple joint replacement surgeries among other things, all very quickly and conveniently. 

There is also most likely a cultural issue at play, considering that such a high percentage of our healthcare spending is for care during the last year of life.  If we could somehow address this issue, not by withholding care, but maybe by taking an approach that doesn’t necessarily default all the time to more care no matter what until the final seconds, perhaps we could get some of that under control.

Ultimately I believe that our best hope is for technology to dramatically reduce costs.  Not only will this become necessary from a fiscal standpoint but we are also burning out our doctors and nurses at an unsustainable rate.  We won’t have enough medical professionals to conduct business as usual and technology- like telemedicine and advanced sensors - will have to fill the gap.

BlueMR2

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2022, 07:34:51 AM »
COBRA from my employer was FAR higher than ACA in a partial working year I qualified for COBRA after a corporate RIF for a policy for a couple. 

That's what I've seen too.  COBRA has always been ridiculously expensive compared to the other options (ACA now, or private plans back pre-ACA).

farmecologist

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2022, 07:56:53 AM »
I'm  the OP. As Im sure most informed people here already know, the 8.5% of AGI premium deal for those of us who are over the former income cliff has been renewed for 3 years.Thank you Democrats!

From what I was reading, that saved me about $30,000 over the next two years for my wife and I. I'm then on Medicare but Ill be paying full boat for my wife for the following 5 years. Estimated health insurance premiums for the next seven years are about $12000 per year. Still steep but Ill take it!

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Absolutely...the ACA certainly isn't a miracle that fixes everything ( we need single payer for one ).   However, it *is* a miracle it made it through congress *at all*...and has already survived countless 'repeal' attempts.  At this point, I think the ACA is here to stay...and I'll go out on a limb and say it will be *improved* in the years to come.  Frankly, there are far too many republican constituents that are dependent on the ACA it for republican politicians to run on a 'repeal the ACA' ticket.     

With that said, could you imagine the absolute shitshow we would be in now without the ACA...especially for early retirees?  At least we have that choice now...and many are actually able to work their income level to take advantage of subsidies, etc... I'd wager that if we didn't have the ACA, the FIRE movement would be in a much, much different place than it is now.

As far as our situation goes, we are continuing to work right now but are looking to retire at some point before traditional retirement age.  We will *absolutely need* very good health insurance to continue into retirement as my wife has a chronic medical condition.  And I, for one, am glad we have the ACA at our disposal...otherwise early retirement wouldn't even be an option for us.  I see far too many complaining about the ACA and hope people consider what the health insurance landscape would look like if it wasn't for the ACA ( hint : it would be absolutely horrible ).
 





« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 08:05:25 AM by farmecologist »

Reynold

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2022, 04:49:05 PM »
If you compare taxes in the US with someplace like the UK which has a nationalized health care system, and extrapolate all of your working years paying those much higher taxes, how does that opportunity cost - the loss of investment return from the money you were not able to save - offset the higher costs we pay in the US for our health insurance and out of pocket?  As most of us know, compounding is a powerful force, and the loss of potential investment return over many years seems like it may well be significantly higher than the cost of expensive insurance in our later years. 

From a few articles I've seen, total taxes on a median income working person in Europe are about double what they are in the U.S., they actually have a much less progressive tax system than the U.S. in terms of what rich people versus the middle class pay.  If the average person pays, say, $20k income tax on a $55k salary in Europe, versus $10k here, that is a lot of additional income missed over an average working lifetime which an American Mustachian could save to pay premiums for 10-15 years before Medicare here. 

In addition, I was just talking to an Irish colleague about retiring early recently, and he asked about investing.  It turns out that if you buy any mutual fund or ETF there, after a year or two they start charging income taxes on the unrealized gains.  No deductions for unrealized losses, of course, so as it fluctuates you keep losing money to taxes whenever it goes up, even if you don't sell it. 

I have mentioned in these forums for quite a while that the single biggest issue I see with MMM's yearly expenses is that he is essentially ignoring health insurance costs.  I have had in my family and have known enough people that had major medical expenses that that is a risk I am not willing to take, I'd be more comfortable ignoring home insurance, at least that is a pretty much fixed downside if it is lost (aside from the small liability risk). 

I'm personally projecting $30k/year in premiums + copays/deductibles post retirement next year based on our past expenses, and where we live, COBRA is about the same cost as one of the more decent silver plans, but with much better coverage.  No state ACA plan covers anything but emergency care outside my state, for example.  That is one of the reasons we are considering moving to another state, we may want to snowbird. 

elysianfields

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2022, 11:43:11 AM »
Health care is expensive.  My employer plan is $6,300 a year between my and my employers contributions.

This is important to highlight. I have only paid premiums into student plans. Every job, and now DH's coverage, has covered 100%. That workplace coverage can be expensive, especially for families.

If the price of health insurance bothers you, vote. Like funding retirement, your health care options should be independent of your employer. I wish these SECURE proposals addressed that, rather than raising RMD age to benefit folks who already have plenty saved.

Yeah the policies encouraging workplaces to provide insurance are nonsensical. There's no good reason that someone switching jobs should also need to switch up their family's whole network of health care providers just because the new job contracts with a different insurance company than the old one. Health insurance shouldn't be a tax-free benefit, and employers really shouldn't be subject to financial penalties for failing to provide it.

I’ve been saying for a while that America would be fairer if we made Federal benefits (e.g. FEHB, TSP, FSAs, etc.) available to everyone and required employers to pay the USG share for those benefits.  Too many employees, particularly on the lower end of the income scale, simply work for employers who don’t offer 401(k)s, health insurance, mass transit benefits, etc.  Employers could return to focusing on improving their profitability without running an employee benefit shop.

elysianfields

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2022, 11:47:08 AM »
This post serves as a friendly reminder/warning.  If you live in the US, healthcare IS the financial wildcard for early retirement.  The ACA has been a huge benefit for FIRE seekers, but not guaranteed longterm.  For those not retired yet, strive to stay as healthy as possible & don't underestimate potential costs and risks of future healthcare insurance.  In the end, I figured working longer than required was its own risk/downside and decided it was time.  No regrets so far.

Indeed, as I’ve said elsewhere, I view my access to the FEHB at the employee contribution level during my retirement as potentially much more valuable than the Federal pension for which I’ll qualify in another 3+ years.  It removes a huge amount of uncertainty regarding medical expenses, especially if we spend some of our retirement overseas, where healthcare is cheaper and one doesn’t need to prequalify for things like MRIs; instead, one simply submits receipts and receives reimbursement.

chasesfish

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2022, 04:44:59 AM »
Saw this thread and wanted to chime in.

I'm consciously blowing through the ACA cliff at 40 to get Roth conversions done and qualify for the tax credits in my 50s.   Another option I've been considering is alternating between high/low years in income.

$765/mo for the lowest cost Bronze plan for a married couple, expecting that to continue to go up by 10-12%.  Inflation is painful

expatartist

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2022, 07:52:18 AM »
Folks need to understand that US costs are so much higher than other countries that there are travel policies that cover anywhere except the US.

Yep. My job's insurance covers me for basics and for travel everywhere in the world - except for the US. When I go to the US, I purchase a separate policy for that time.

Sanitary Stache

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2022, 08:00:45 AM »
I am reading this and looking at my paystub and feel like I am getting screwed on health insurance once again.

In my state government job, the health insurance we have is some kind of employer plan where the state is the insurer, not some third party health care provider.  Though the program is administered by one of the two health insurance providers in the state and its not like there is a separate set of doctors and nurses.  My hourly rate is $31.46. Yearly salary of $65,436.80.  My contribution to the health insurance premium is $4,462.12.  My employer contributes $17,848.22. 

First thought, what the fuck.

Second thought, my employer is lying about their contribution.

My health insurance premium, for me and my wife is $22,310.34 per year.

If my employer gave me that money and I could somehow buy health insurance on the exchange, then my salary would jump to $83,285.02 and what I pay for a premium would stay the same.  I am told the quality of my health insurance would go down, and I suppose I don't fully understand what that means.  My $20 co-pays might go away and maybe if I had an illness I might experience some other conveniences from the very expensive insurance, but the quality of health care that I actually receive wouldn't change since I would be seeing the same people in the same places.

Anyway, $15,000/year premium doesn't sound all that strange.  I think it is a little more disgusting that someone in my position has to pay this amount than someone in a Fat Fire position.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2022, 11:10:40 AM »
I am reading this and looking at my paystub and feel like I am getting screwed on health insurance once again.

In my state government job, the health insurance we have is some kind of employer plan where the state is the insurer, not some third party health care provider.  Though the program is administered by one of the two health insurance providers in the state and its not like there is a separate set of doctors and nurses.  My hourly rate is $31.46. Yearly salary of $65,436.80.  My contribution to the health insurance premium is $4,462.12.  My employer contributes $17,848.22. 

First thought, what the fuck.

Second thought, my employer is lying about their contribution.

My health insurance premium, for me and my wife is $22,310.34 per year.

My employer offers a few plans. I picked the cheapest one and the total employer + employee premium for myself, wife, and two kids was $17k. Your plan costs more than that, but less than some of the other options my employer offers. I doubt your state employer is getting a terrible deal here. Medical care in the US is crazy expensive and the cost of insurance reflects that.

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If my employer gave me that money and I could somehow buy health insurance on the exchange, then my salary would jump to $83,285.02 and what I pay for a premium would stay the same.

Right now none of the premium you pay counts toward your income for tax purposes. With your income you're probably in the 12% federal bracket, plus 15.3% payroll taxes (if your state participates in social security), plus any state income taxes, you'd be looking at keeping perhaps $16,200 of the $22,310 after taxes if your employer let you opt out of their benefit plan and converted the premiums into cash wages.

That's one of the big reasons employers have offered health insurance historically: because it's a non-taxable employee benefit the employer can give you $22,310 worth of insurance for the same cost as giving you $16,200 of after-tax pay. That's not a bad deal! For employees in higher tax brackets the discount is even greater. However now that the ACA gives pretty generous subsidies for families in your income bracket who don't have employer coverage, it's probably true that you could get a better deal if your employer didn't offer insurance and you bought your own from the exchange. For your colleagues who have higher incomes and/or fewer dependents this may not be the case.

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I am told the quality of my health insurance would go down, and I suppose I don't fully understand what that means.  My $20 co-pays might go away and maybe if I had an illness I might experience some other conveniences from the very expensive insurance, but the quality of health care that I actually receive wouldn't change since I would be seeing the same people in the same places.

The cheapest plan on my local exchange has a much lower premium than what you're paying but it covers literally nothing except preventive care until you've paid the $15,000 family deductible. If your family tends to be relatively healthy this plan may usually be a better deal than what you're getting now, but that can flip rapidly if someone needs to go to the hospital. Your assumption that you would be seeing the same people in the same places is not necessarily true either. Most of the ACA marketplace plans have extremely narrow networks of covered providers; you may or may not be able to find a marketplace plan that will pay for your current set of doctors.

Cassie

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2022, 11:34:09 AM »
The ACA gave people the opportunity to retire before Medicare age which is great. People have to expect to pay for it. I think it’s a mistake for assets not to be taken into consideration because millionaires are on Medicaid by keeping their yearly income low. Medicare is not cheap. I pay 400/month on a monthly income of 2666.  Before Medicare I paid a fourth of my gross income for HI through my past employer. Stop complaining as you can afford it.

ixtap

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2022, 09:30:22 AM »
The ACA gave people the opportunity to retire before Medicare age which is great. People have to expect to pay for it. I think it’s a mistake for assets not to be taken into consideration because millionaires are on Medicaid by keeping their yearly income low. Medicare is not cheap. I pay 400/month on a monthly income of 2666.  Before Medicare I paid a fourth of my gross income for HI through my past employer. Stop complaining as you can afford it.

The system is broken, whether or not I can afford it.

EngineerOurFI

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2022, 08:05:03 PM »
I’m always surprised people are surprised by this.  I pay like $200-300 per month while working for insurance and my company pitches in ~$15-20k on my behalf for my family plan insurance.  ACA allows you to buy your own insurance.  Why is it surprising that premiums are around that total ~$15k mark?  Doesn’t that make logical sense?  I mean sure it sucks and sure we can compare to Europe and their medical system - but my engineers in Germany make half of what the same engineers in USA make so I’m not exactly envious of their system in that regard, personally.

chasesfish

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2022, 05:45:50 AM »
I’m always surprised people are surprised by this.  I pay like $200-300 per month while working for insurance and my company pitches in ~$15-20k on my behalf for my family plan insurance.  ACA allows you to buy your own insurance.  Why is it surprising that premiums are around that total ~$15k mark?  Doesn’t that make logical sense?  I mean sure it sucks and sure we can compare to Europe and their medical system - but my engineers in Germany make half of what the same engineers in USA make so I’m not exactly envious of their system in that regard, personally.

This is accurate.   Socialized medicine would have it's benefits, but a 40% tax rate above 50k plus a 20% VAT tax like in the UK start restricting the ability to get to FI.

TempusFugit

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2022, 08:58:49 AM »
I’m always surprised people are surprised by this.  I pay like $200-300 per month while working for insurance and my company pitches in ~$15-20k on my behalf for my family plan insurance.  ACA allows you to buy your own insurance.  Why is it surprising that premiums are around that total ~$15k mark?  Doesn’t that make logical sense?  I mean sure it sucks and sure we can compare to Europe and their medical system - but my engineers in Germany make half of what the same engineers in USA make so I’m not exactly envious of their system in that regard, personally.

This is accurate.   Socialized medicine would have it's benefits, but a 40% tax rate above 50k plus a 20% VAT tax like in the UK start restricting the ability to get to FI.

People aren’t very good with the concept of trade-offs.   They prefer to believe that if only the ‘right’ people were in charge, they could have all the nice things and no down side.  Make those mean rich people pay for it! 

I fear that we are headed toward a VAT model in the US as well, as we are about to learn that we can’t continue indefinitely to borrow from tomorrow to fund everything today.  When we are paying $1 TRILLION a year just in INTEREST on the debt, we’re going to discover that this will crowd out a lot of other things.  Something will have to give, and a VAT has a way of hiding the cost, which politicians love. 

mboley

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2022, 09:11:19 AM »
I’m always surprised people are surprised by this.  I pay like $200-300 per month while working for insurance and my company pitches in ~$15-20k on my behalf for my family plan insurance.  ACA allows you to buy your own insurance.  Why is it surprising that premiums are around that total ~$15k mark?  Doesn’t that make logical sense?  I mean sure it sucks and sure we can compare to Europe and their medical system - but my engineers in Germany make half of what the same engineers in USA make so I’m not exactly envious of their system in that regard, personally.
You say your company pitches in $15-20k for a family plan, I will assume a family of four? That would have been my premium for just my wife and I if the 8.5% deal hadnt been extended. Im no health insurance expert but Im pretty sure Im correct in saying that employer group plans are discounted by a significant amount. You are saying they are not?

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bacchi

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2022, 09:40:38 AM »
I’m always surprised people are surprised by this.  I pay like $200-300 per month while working for insurance and my company pitches in ~$15-20k on my behalf for my family plan insurance.  ACA allows you to buy your own insurance.  Why is it surprising that premiums are around that total ~$15k mark?  Doesn’t that make logical sense?  I mean sure it sucks and sure we can compare to Europe and their medical system - but my engineers in Germany make half of what the same engineers in USA make so I’m not exactly envious of their system in that regard, personally.

This is accurate.   Socialized medicine would have it's benefits, but a 40% tax rate above 50k plus a 20% VAT tax like in the UK start restricting the ability to get to FI.

Not ALL of those extra taxes go to health care.

The fact is that, per capita, the US pays ~2x more than other OECD countries for health care. That's paid whether it's through taxes or through premiums.

The US doesn't have to take entire systems; it can take those parts that work for it, like single-payer.

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2022, 10:01:52 AM »
I’m always surprised people are surprised by this.  I pay like $200-300 per month while working for insurance and my company pitches in ~$15-20k on my behalf for my family plan insurance.  ACA allows you to buy your own insurance.  Why is it surprising that premiums are around that total ~$15k mark?  Doesn’t that make logical sense?  I mean sure it sucks and sure we can compare to Europe and their medical system - but my engineers in Germany make half of what the same engineers in USA make so I’m not exactly envious of their system in that regard, personally.
You say your company pitches in $15-20k for a family plan, I will assume a family of four? That would have been my premium for just my wife and I if the 8.5% deal hadnt been extended. Im no health insurance expert but Im pretty sure Im correct in saying that employer group plans are discounted by a significant amount. You are saying they are not?

I'm not sure I'd say the employer insurance is "discounted," but it does have a different pool of customers that lead to different costs, and the pricing system is also different.

Pool of customers: your ACA marketplace insurance is priced based on the expected medical costs incurred by the people who buy into that ACA marketplace plan. Your employer plan is priced based on the expected medical costs of the people on that plan. If the average worker at the company (plus their family) is more or less expensive to care for than the average person buying ACA marketplace insurance, that difference will be reflected in the price.

Pricing differences: ACA marketplace insurance is priced a-la-carte per person in your family, based on age. They have a table of what the premium will be based on each family member's age, and you add it up to get the total family premium. A 65-year-old will pay roughly 3x what a young adult will pay on the marketplace. Meanwhile I've never seen an employer plan that charges different premiums based on age. A new graduate will pay the same as someone about to retire. Also while there might be different "employee only," "employee + spouse," "employee + spouse + kids" premiums, the number of kids doesn't factor into it as it does on the ACA marketplace.

If you're older than average you might find that the unsubsidized ACA premiums are higher than your employer reports for insurance cost on your W-2, because this reported cost is averaged across all the employees instead of taking your age into account. Similarly if your company has a workforce that skews toward the younger end of the spectrum that will also push the W-2 reported value down compared to the marketplace premiums.

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2022, 11:04:39 AM »
@seattlecyclone Spot on

COBRA from my megacorp was cheaper than unsubsidized ACA coverage because it was a self funded plan.  Premiums were actual expenses plus the admin cost from a big 4 provider.  It was a shame I couldn't stay in that pool.

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2022, 09:37:46 AM »
Health care is expensive.  My employer plan is $6,300 a year between my and my employers contributions.

This is important to highlight. I have only paid premiums into student plans. Every job, and now DH's coverage, has covered 100%. That workplace coverage can be expensive, especially for families.

If the price of health insurance bothers you, vote. Like funding retirement, your health care options should be independent of your employer. I wish these SECURE proposals addressed that, rather than raising RMD age to benefit folks who already have plenty saved.

Yeah the policies encouraging workplaces to provide insurance are nonsensical. There's no good reason that someone switching jobs should also need to switch up their family's whole network of health care providers just because the new job contracts with a different insurance company than the old one. Health insurance shouldn't be a tax-free benefit, and employers really shouldn't be subject to financial penalties for failing to provide it.

I’ve been saying for a while that America would be fairer if we made Federal benefits (e.g. FEHB, TSP, FSAs, etc.) available to everyone and required employers to pay the USG share for those benefits.  Too many employees, particularly on the lower end of the income scale, simply work for employers who don’t offer 401(k)s, health insurance, mass transit benefits, etc.  Employers could return to focusing on improving their profitability without running an employee benefit shop.

Funny as my healthcare is FEHB and I’m single so I’m the only one insured.

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2022, 05:05:21 PM »
New CalPERS annuitant here, recently switched job to FEHB sponsored employer. I already earned my prior employer's portion of healthcare insurance premium for life. Health plan also covers DW for life, and a dependent until child turns 26. For an identical plan with FEHB, employee's portion of FEHB premiums is more than twice as much compare to CalPERS, so we are getting our coverage from CalPERS. Yes, health insurance takes a big chunk of retiree's budget especially before Medicare years.


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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2022, 12:37:48 PM »
Medicare is far from cheap and will take a big chunk then too.

mboley

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2022, 12:41:31 PM »
Medicare is far from cheap and will take a big chunk then too.
Huh? $300-$400 per month is cheap compared to the numbers mentioned in this thread. Care to explain?

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bacchi

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2022, 10:33:19 PM »
2023 plans are out on the marketplace. I'm surprised that, for my county, they're better priced than last year.

Omy

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2022, 06:45:47 AM »
Ours are up by 15%ish which is only $50/month. And they just gave us $500 back since there profit for last year was over 20%. I'm thankful that the ACA has been stable.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 09:56:40 AM by Omy »

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2022, 07:28:24 AM »
My HDHP PPO is going up from $393 to $454 for a 37 y/o. I'm planning to go on sabbatical at the beginning of the year. Not sure how long that will last but I think I'll update my income to get the subsidies and pay them back if I get a job later in the year.

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2022, 08:32:32 AM »
Medicare is far from cheap and will take a big chunk then too.
Huh? $300-$400 per month is cheap compared to the numbers mentioned in this thread. Care to explain?

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I will be looking at a large increase in costs when I move from ACA to Medicare in two years. My current ACA premiums are zero. That is because I am relatively healthy and can use a High Deductable Bronze Plan with an HSA.  Because I am retired and structured my portfolio carefully, I can manage my MAGI to be low enough to not have to pay any premiums.  Granted, Medicare is more coverage than an ACA bronze plan. It's not an apples to apples comparison, but it will be more out of pocket none the less.

Cassie

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2022, 10:39:34 AM »
Medicare is far from cheap and will take a big chunk then too.
Huh? $300-$400 per month is cheap compared to the numbers mentioned in this thread. Care to explain?

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I am paying 400/month for one person on Medicare. That’s 4800/year on a income of 32k. That’s no different than the couple paying 9k for 2 as noted in one of the first posts. It’s my biggest expense.

Unionville

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2022, 06:38:54 PM »
I've shifted my way of thinking about paying retail health insurance.  I'm 62 and have paid out of pocket for 30 years and I feel better about it now.  It's something I am grateful for.   I kind of see it as paying rent on my irreplaceable body.  I also see it as "money" insurance vs. health insurance (to avoid going bankrupt over a life threatening illness).  Of course it helps to have a good health plan (I have Kaiser) and they treat me well (no hassle, and do what I request) and they seem invested in me as much as I invest in them. 

You only have one life. Try not to compare your insurance to other countries. Try not to despair that is 'should' be cheaper.  There are a lot of things that should be more expensive and aren't: community college, technology, food and much more...

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2022, 08:24:27 AM »
I've shifted my way of thinking about paying retail health insurance.  I'm 62 and have paid out of pocket for 30 years and I feel better about it now.  It's something I am grateful for.   I kind of see it as paying rent on my irreplaceable body.  I also see it as "money" insurance vs. health insurance (to avoid going bankrupt over a life threatening illness).  Of course it helps to have a good health plan (I have Kaiser) and they treat me well (no hassle, and do what I request) and they seem invested in me as much as I invest in them. 

You only have one life. Try not to compare your insurance to other countries. Try not to despair that is 'should' be cheaper.  There are a lot of things that should be more expensive and aren't: community college, technology, food and much more...

No offense...but you are damned lucky you didn't come down with a life threatening medical issue while you were paying "out of pocket".  Many, many people have been completely wiped out when they refuse to maintain health insurance, end up getting a very expensive medical issue, and get financially wiped out.  And yet...most of them *still* complain that the health care system "wasn't there for them".   I have seen this time and time again and it really irks me.  The thing about the human body is that something could happen at *any time*...regardless of if we think we are healthy or not.

However, it looks like you beat the odds and finally realized this...good for you!

 
 


« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 08:28:10 AM by farmecologist »

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #90 on: December 23, 2022, 12:58:30 PM »
I've shifted my way of thinking about paying retail health insurance.  I'm 62 and have paid out of pocket for 30 years and I feel better about it now.  It's something I am grateful for.   I kind of see it as paying rent on my irreplaceable body.  I also see it as "money" insurance vs. health insurance (to avoid going bankrupt over a life threatening illness).  Of course it helps to have a good health plan (I have Kaiser) and they treat me well (no hassle, and do what I request) and they seem invested in me as much as I invest in them. 

You only have one life. Try not to compare your insurance to other countries. Try not to despair that is 'should' be cheaper.  There are a lot of things that should be more expensive and aren't: community college, technology, food and much more...

No offense...but you are damned lucky you didn't come down with a life threatening medical issue while you were paying "out of pocket".  Many, many people have been completely wiped out when they refuse to maintain health insurance, end up getting a very expensive medical issue, and get financially wiped out.  And yet...most of them *still* complain that the health care system "wasn't there for them".   I have seen this time and time again and it really irks me.  The thing about the human body is that something could happen at *any time*...regardless of if we think we are healthy or not.

However, it looks like you beat the odds and finally realized this...good for you!
 

I'm pretty sure the previous poster was talking about paying out of pocket for health insurance, currently thru Kaiser, not the actual health care. It's their thinking about paying for insurance that has changed. It'd be interesting if they came back and clarified which they mean.

And I want to push back on the mindset that you have to have employer-provided health insurance. Back in the day, i.e. before ACA, in California there was a way for anyone with the means to buy health insurance. It was expensive, very expensive, but it was there. I know a couple that swore they could not get insurance so "had" to work. Meanwhile they spent more on opera tickets than the health insurance would have been. And don't even start on their vacation spending. So it wasn't that they couldn't get the health insurance, it's that they prioritized other spending. They were so happy when ACA passed and they could keep spending on what they really valued and get non employer-provided health insurance.

How many people have stayed in jobs that are not good for their mental or physical health because they are so sure they need that employer-provided health insurance? Meanwhile they use more medical care because of the stress and strain of that job, probably shortening their lifespan at the same time.

If I could waive a magic wand, I would do a few things.
- Decouple health insurance from employment
- Retrain everyone to think of health insurance as insurance from catastrophic events, not regular maintenance. e.g. who expects their auto insurance to pay for the oil changes or their home insurance to pay for painting every 5 years?
- Related - bring back the catastrophic coverage-only plans
- Change the medical culture to have lifestyle changes usually be the first intervention

Omy

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2022, 03:25:40 PM »
Prior to the ACA, individual insurance was expensive and they could drop you for any reason. Get sick and you'd have a pre-existing condition that could be excluded from future coverage. Get cancer or have a major accident and you would quickly blow through your life-time maximum.

As someone who was self employed for most of my career, I paid for crappy individual insurance for decades. It could easily go up 50% from one year to the next...and parts of my body were excluded from coverage.

The ACA was a godsend.

Unionville

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #92 on: December 26, 2022, 12:25:54 PM »
I've shifted my way of thinking about paying retail health insurance.  I'm 62 and have paid out of pocket for 30 years and I feel better about it now.  It's something I am grateful for.   I kind of see it as paying rent on my irreplaceable body.  I also see it as "money" insurance vs. health insurance (to avoid going bankrupt over a life threatening illness).  Of course it helps to have a good health plan (I have Kaiser) and they treat me well (no hassle, and do what I request) and they seem invested in me as much as I invest in them. 

You only have one life. Try not to compare your insurance to other countries. Try not to despair that is 'should' be cheaper.  There are a lot of things that should be more expensive and aren't: community college, technology, food and much more...

No offense...but you are damned lucky you didn't come down with a life threatening medical issue while you were paying "out of pocket".  Many, many people have been completely wiped out when they refuse to maintain health insurance, end up getting a very expensive medical issue, and get financially wiped out.  And yet...most of them *still* complain that the health care system "wasn't there for them".   I have seen this time and time again and it really irks me.  The thing about the human body is that something could happen at *any time*...regardless of if we think we are healthy or not.

However, it looks like you beat the odds and finally realized this...good for you!

 
 

Yes I will clarify that I meant: I pay out-of-pocket for a health insurance 'plan'. I pay high monthly fee, BUT here are some examples of how I've used it:

Multiple blood tests all at once for $10 flat fee,
A required monthly shot: free (retail is normally $150)
Ambulance ride/emergency visit $100,
Specialty MRI, Cat Scans $35-$50 (Some can be $10,000 retail)
Special non-generic medication $30 for 3 months ($1,200 retail).

Not to mention hassle-free care:
Free online/phone/video Dr. Appointments.
I often email my Dr's and get a response back same day usually.

Compare that to my neighbor who has supposed health insurance through her job at a high tech company.  She had to pay $1,200 for a test that costs me $10.



stoaX

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #93 on: December 26, 2022, 12:30:43 PM »
I've shifted my way of thinking about paying retail health insurance.  I'm 62 and have paid out of pocket for 30 years and I feel better about it now.  It's something I am grateful for.   I kind of see it as paying rent on my irreplaceable body.  I also see it as "money" insurance vs. health insurance (to avoid going bankrupt over a life threatening illness).  Of course it helps to have a good health plan (I have Kaiser) and they treat me well (no hassle, and do what I request) and they seem invested in me as much as I invest in them. 

You only have one life. Try not to compare your insurance to other countries. Try not to despair that is 'should' be cheaper.  There are a lot of things that should be more expensive and aren't: community college, technology, food and much more...

No offense...but you are damned lucky you didn't come down with a life threatening medical issue while you were paying "out of pocket".  Many, many people have been completely wiped out when they refuse to maintain health insurance, end up getting a very expensive medical issue, and get financially wiped out.  And yet...most of them *still* complain that the health care system "wasn't there for them".   I have seen this time and time again and it really irks me.  The thing about the human body is that something could happen at *any time*...regardless of if we think we are healthy or not.

However, it looks like you beat the odds and finally realized this...good for you!

 
 

Yes I will clarify that I meant: I pay out-of-pocket for a health insurance 'plan'. I pay high monthly fee, BUT here are some examples of how I've used it:

Multiple blood tests all at once for $10 flat fee,
A required monthly shot: free (retail is normally $150)
Ambulance ride/emergency visit $100,
Specialty MRI, Cat Scans $35-$50 (Some can be $10,000 retail)
Special non-generic medication $30 for 3 months ($1,200 retail).

Not to mention hassle-free care:
Free online/phone/video Dr. Appointments.
I often email my Dr's and get a response back same day usually.

Compare that to my neighbor who has supposed health insurance through her job at a high tech company.  She had to pay $1,200 for a test that costs me $10.


Your experience with Kaiser was similar to mine.  I wish I was still with Kaiser but its not offered where I live now. 

bacchi

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #94 on: December 26, 2022, 01:27:37 PM »
Prior to the ACA, individual insurance was expensive and they could drop you for any reason. Get sick and you'd have a pre-existing condition that could be excluded from future coverage. Get cancer or have a major accident and you would quickly blow through your life-time maximum.

As someone who was self employed for most of my career, I paid for crappy individual insurance for decades. It could easily go up 50% from one year to the next...and parts of my body were excluded from coverage.

The ACA was a godsend.

Word.

Deep in the search engine, there are pre-ACA articles about women getting kicked from their individual plans when they got breast cancer because they forgot to declare their tonsil operation at age 16 or some other BS.

gary3411

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #95 on: December 27, 2022, 09:11:15 AM »
We can still have a law requiring no discrimination against pre-existing conditions, without the ACA.

gary3411

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #96 on: December 27, 2022, 09:14:04 AM »
I've shifted my way of thinking about paying retail health insurance.  I'm 62 and have paid out of pocket for 30 years and I feel better about it now.  It's something I am grateful for.   I kind of see it as paying rent on my irreplaceable body.  I also see it as "money" insurance vs. health insurance (to avoid going bankrupt over a life threatening illness).  Of course it helps to have a good health plan (I have Kaiser) and they treat me well (no hassle, and do what I request) and they seem invested in me as much as I invest in them. 

You only have one life. Try not to compare your insurance to other countries. Try not to despair that is 'should' be cheaper.  There are a lot of things that should be more expensive and aren't: community college, technology, food and much more...

No offense...but you are damned lucky you didn't come down with a life threatening medical issue while you were paying "out of pocket".  Many, many people have been completely wiped out when they refuse to maintain health insurance, end up getting a very expensive medical issue, and get financially wiped out.  And yet...most of them *still* complain that the health care system "wasn't there for them".   I have seen this time and time again and it really irks me.  The thing about the human body is that something could happen at *any time*...regardless of if we think we are healthy or not.

However, it looks like you beat the odds and finally realized this...good for you!
 

I'm pretty sure the previous poster was talking about paying out of pocket for health insurance, currently thru Kaiser, not the actual health care. It's their thinking about paying for insurance that has changed. It'd be interesting if they came back and clarified which they mean.

And I want to push back on the mindset that you have to have employer-provided health insurance. Back in the day, i.e. before ACA, in California there was a way for anyone with the means to buy health insurance. It was expensive, very expensive, but it was there. I know a couple that swore they could not get insurance so "had" to work. Meanwhile they spent more on opera tickets than the health insurance would have been. And don't even start on their vacation spending. So it wasn't that they couldn't get the health insurance, it's that they prioritized other spending. They were so happy when ACA passed and they could keep spending on what they really valued and get non employer-provided health insurance.

How many people have stayed in jobs that are not good for their mental or physical health because they are so sure they need that employer-provided health insurance? Meanwhile they use more medical care because of the stress and strain of that job, probably shortening their lifespan at the same time.

If I could waive a magic wand, I would do a few things.
- Decouple health insurance from employment
- Retrain everyone to think of health insurance as insurance from catastrophic events, not regular maintenance. e.g. who expects their auto insurance to pay for the oil changes or their home insurance to pay for painting every 5 years?
- Related - bring back the catastrophic coverage-only plans
- Change the medical culture to have lifestyle changes usually be the first intervention

Couldn't agree with this more. ACA plans will probably either get more expensive in the future, or the quality of care will get worse. Already, in my area, the doctor quality for ACA plans is noticeably lower than the doctor quality of employer-based plans.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #97 on: December 27, 2022, 10:17:31 AM »
I've shifted my way of thinking about paying retail health insurance.  I'm 62 and have paid out of pocket for 30 years and I feel better about it now.  It's something I am grateful for.   I kind of see it as paying rent on my irreplaceable body.  I also see it as "money" insurance vs. health insurance (to avoid going bankrupt over a life threatening illness).  Of course it helps to have a good health plan (I have Kaiser) and they treat me well (no hassle, and do what I request) and they seem invested in me as much as I invest in them. 

You only have one life. Try not to compare your insurance to other countries. Try not to despair that is 'should' be cheaper.  There are a lot of things that should be more expensive and aren't: community college, technology, food and much more...

No offense...but you are damned lucky you didn't come down with a life threatening medical issue while you were paying "out of pocket".  Many, many people have been completely wiped out when they refuse to maintain health insurance, end up getting a very expensive medical issue, and get financially wiped out.  And yet...most of them *still* complain that the health care system "wasn't there for them".   I have seen this time and time again and it really irks me.  The thing about the human body is that something could happen at *any time*...regardless of if we think we are healthy or not.

However, it looks like you beat the odds and finally realized this...good for you!

 
 
We had a lady on this very forum who came looking for advice while uninsured and in unexplained excruciating stomach pain.

The advice was basically " take your thousands of dollars of free rider savings and go to a doctor ASAP". She did not like it and rage quit shortly after that.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #98 on: December 27, 2022, 01:28:53 PM »
I've shifted my way of thinking about paying retail health insurance.  I'm 62 and have paid out of pocket for 30 years and I feel better about it now.  It's something I am grateful for.   I kind of see it as paying rent on my irreplaceable body.  I also see it as "money" insurance vs. health insurance (to avoid going bankrupt over a life threatening illness).  Of course it helps to have a good health plan (I have Kaiser) and they treat me well (no hassle, and do what I request) and they seem invested in me as much as I invest in them. 

You only have one life. Try not to compare your insurance to other countries. Try not to despair that is 'should' be cheaper.  There are a lot of things that should be more expensive and aren't: community college, technology, food and much more...

No offense...but you are damned lucky you didn't come down with a life threatening medical issue while you were paying "out of pocket".  Many, many people have been completely wiped out when they refuse to maintain health insurance, end up getting a very expensive medical issue, and get financially wiped out.  And yet...most of them *still* complain that the health care system "wasn't there for them".   I have seen this time and time again and it really irks me.  The thing about the human body is that something could happen at *any time*...regardless of if we think we are healthy or not.

However, it looks like you beat the odds and finally realized this...good for you!

 
 
We had a lady on this very forum who came looking for advice while uninsured and in unexplained excruciating stomach pain.

The advice was basically " take your thousands of dollars of free rider savings and go to a doctor ASAP". She did not like it and rage quit shortly after that.

I know a person (contractor) who got paid in cash he never reported. He never had insurance, never saw the doctor, etc.

I always assumed one day he would be screwed. Nope. He had a massive heart attack at 58 years old and had open heart surgery. Half a million dollars or some absurd amount of money. They asked him if he had insurance, he said no. They asked him how much he made and he said he had no job.

The hospital then retroactively signed him up for medicaid which paid for 100% of everything.

I know many more broke people who simply never paid their hospital bills. Collections went after them but they had no legally seizable assets or wages, so they got away for free.

Unfortunately the people who get screwed in these situations are the people who are responsible and have savings.

This is also why I'm morally fine with Mustachians on Medicaid. The USA healthcare system is completely and utterly screwed up due to over-regulation anyway.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Fat Fire health insurance costs reality has kicked in
« Reply #99 on: December 27, 2022, 01:43:04 PM »
Fuck that guy and everyone else who doesn't report their income.

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/how-do-you-report-suspected-tax-fraud-activity