OT - Have I avoided apple out of stubbornness, and dealt with inferior products?

[infromsea]

Off topic, in a way...

After reading an update/article about chrome browser add-ons being rife with spyware etc. AND seeing other intel about the security of apple VS android and such, I'm wondering if it's not time to take the apple plunge...

I have largely avoided apple because of the cost AND, I'm not someone who attempts to display wealth in any manner, much less small and ultimately un-important items like computers, phones, cars, clothes, etc. those are utility items and not signs of my financial status, I tend to avoid places/groups/events/people who use them as such.

Is anyone taking full advantage of the apple ecosystem, IE, the phone, the apple pay, the savings account?

Any scenarios/advantages that make it a must have?

Am I simply being a curmudgeon by avoiding their products? Any way to use this suite of products and still be frugal? I am also considering a dumb phone or other alternatives but they often reduce capability AND/OR require a lot more tech time from the user and I'm just not that into tech to become my own full blown phone alternate OS tech support guru.

[FINate]

Don't install shitty browser extensions/apps and you'll be fine.

As a general rule of thumb, I only install stuff from companies I have a business relationship with and well established open source software.

You don't need Apple to curate a walled garden of vendor lock-in and forced obsolescence... unless of course you can't help but install that craptastic malware ridden weather app, then go ahead and pay the Apple Tax and don't worry about it.

[merryt]

I have bounced around between the different ecosystems and product families. When it comes to personal devices, most people I talk to think, "My side is the right side, but also it's what I have always used". As someone who tries to switch from world to world every few years here are some observations I have made.

- Macs are not really more expensive than Windows machines. You can buy a refurbished 1-2 year old Macbook from Apple use it for 3 years and sell it. If you tried the same with a Windows machine you will take a bath. The Mustachian move is buying a Windows machine that is 3-5 years old and install Linux on it, but that is daunting to people who don't really live in that space, and it sounds like that isn't you.
- Phones aren't made to last. If you can get 3-4 years out of a phone you are doing great, , in my limited experience an iPhone SE and a Pixel A last about the same.
- Ecosystem - The way Apple devices work together is clearly better than other platforms. Is it better enough that it is worth the lock into their walled garden? I don't think so. When I am running Apple devices I move all my stuff over to icloud, or all my contacts to messenger. I get picked on for being a green bubble despite being on an iphone.
- Security - Apple stuff is a bit more secure and private (because a lot of the time their services aren't subsidized by ads) but its possible to make any computer unsecure with bad practices. You mentioned Chrome browser extensions, those same extensions run on mac and windows machines. so if THAT is what you are worried about it's a wash. But if your worry is about your data getting handed over to the police, you can't use google or microsoft services.

I haven't used the savings account, but when I did research on how apple pay works I was really impressed and found it much safer.

Any scenarios/advantages that make it a must have?

Am I simply being a curmudgeon by avoiding their products? Any way to use this suite of products and still be frugal? I am also considering a dumb phone or other alternatives but they often reduce capability AND/OR require a lot more tech time from the user and I'm just not that into tech to become my own full blown phone alternate OS tech support guru.

There are tons of situations where Apple products are must-haves. But if you don't have a clear need now, you probably wont not in the future. (ipad pro & pencil for certain types of illustration, a Mac for ios development, etc)  If you are comfortable with where you are the time is probably better spent going outside and reading on a park bench. BUUUUUUT perhaps try getting a refurbished iPhone se, Apple stuff is easy enough to sell on craigslist so you aren't locked in if you hate it.

Re dumbphone. dumbphones are great, but you give up a lot of conveniences. I used only a dumbphone for 2 months in 2019, it was very hard. I found it more rewarding and better for my life to use a smart phone without cellular service. What is your motivation for going this path?

(disclosure I currently use a hand me down samsung android phone, and am about to install linux on a 3 year old asus laptop, no tablets or smart watches)

[Telecaster]

I've been Android/Windows all my life but my wife got an iPhone back in the day, and I kept noticing how much nicer it was than whatever Android I had so I finally switched.  Personal preference, but the iPhone is just a better, easier to use product. 

[sonofsven]

I've avoided Apple products, too after an early bad experience with an Apple computer in the 90's: I bought it brand new and it died a week after the warranty expired. I was not impressed.
I did buy Apple stock luckily.
I'm not a big tech guy though. I was very late to get a smartphone and a Chromebook is plenty.

[RWD]

I've used Windows, Linux, and Mac OS. Each for a significant period of time. I have not had much experience with iOS, but what I've read about their hyper-control over the App Store and such doesn't make me want to try it.

The Mac OS experience was not inherently better than Windows or Linux, it was just different. Some things were easier and other things were harder. The Apple ecosystem lock-in is real. For example, if you want to update AirPods then you better also own an iOS device. Service/repair is a significant concern as well (see Louis Rossmann videos if you want to do a deep dive on this). Apple will do everything in their power to not sell you replacement parts. Apple is also not magically more secure, to think so would be a false sense of security.

Apple does have a standard that they meet with all their products. So if you compare the cheapest Apple products with the cheapest whatever-brand then Apple will look superior. But it is easy to find equivalent or even superior quality products in the same price range that are not Apple.

If you want a quality desktop PC then build one yourself from components (or go to a reputable builder that uses standard components). For a laptop that's actually repairable see Framework.

[seattlecyclone]

I am a long-time Mac and Android user. I think Apple laptops are worth the money for those who spend a lot of time on the computer, while the iPhone is less of a good buy.

[dang1]

I’ve never gotten an Apple product, though, I’ve always considered it when making a purchase- new phone, computer, etc.

Apple products just always seem to be overpriced – for my use.

I currently use about 80-100 GB of data a month on my Samsung Galaxy S9+ with  no problems – browsing, shopping, banking, video, security cameras streaming, gaming, navigation, etc. My back-up everyday carry phone is a Galaxy S7, also still usable. My ancient HP laptop also has held up well. There's no Apples where I work, it's all Dell's

As for usability, I guess it’s really personal preference. My father-in-law and mother in-law, in their 70’s only use Samsung phones and tablets – it’s what they got first and got used to. My brother-in-law uses Apple -  so the in-laws get hands on with Apple products but they just prefer Samsung. Same for my aunt, also in her 70s, always Samsung.

[bacchi]

If you want a quality desktop PC then build one yourself from components (or go to a reputable builder that uses standard components). For a laptop that's actually repairable see Framework.

Yep. I switched to a Framework (which can be Linux or Windows) laptop because it seemed silly to get rid of the alum shell and screen just because the motherboard went kaput. (It's the same reason I bought the hiking boots I own -- they're more expensive but they can be resoled.)

[sonofsven]

I've avoided Apple products, too after an early bad experience with an Apple computer in the 90's: I bought it brand new and it died a week after the warranty expired. I was not impressed.
I did buy Apple stock luckily.
I'm not a big tech guy though. I was very late to get a smartphone and a Chromebook is plenty.

Of course I forgot about the one Apple product that I really loved: the ipod.
The ipod was the ultimate cassette deck. I had thousands of songs on mine.
I still have it, but it only plays through one channel. And no bluetooth.
 Sorry ipod, I miss you.

Back to the OP, I wouldn't consider them "inferior products". Even if they are, in fact, inferior to the actual Apple product you're comparing them to.
To me a phone doesn't have to be the best phone to be a functional phone. So inferior to what?
If it works, it works. Does the Apple work so much better that it's worth the extra cost? Not to me.

[Fru-Gal]

I’ve bought only Apple products for the last 17 years. Every computer still works, though the MacBook G4 (the heavy white one) from 2006 is pretty slow. That’s the only one no longer in daily rotation. I keep my iPhones for years and years too. I like a small phone so my current one is the SE from 4 years ago (I think). Works great, takes amazing pix and video!

My pro tip is look into buying used or refurbished Apple. You can usually get great deals that way.

The only product I wouldn’t buy is the Apple Watch, since I don’t think it’s a good exercise watch and I can’t see another need for it. I also don’t have the EarPods or whatever they’re called — seem overpriced and easy to lose.

My current daily drivers are the M1 Mac Mini and the iPad Pro. Oh, I got the pencil for the iPad, and maybe I wouldn’t get that if I had to do it again since I never use it. Always plan to find a reason or app use it but rarely do…

[nereo]

I use both MacOS and Windows, plus Linux on a few experimental machines.  Our phones (supplied by work) are iPhones (12).

One reason I like Apple has less to do with me and more to do with my office and family.  I’m constantly coordinating users who want to interact on their devices and who have an enormous range of computer literacy. Simply put - it’s just easier when they are using an Apple device.  Typically it doesn’t matter which OS they are using or what they have set their preferences to be on an Apple - anything in the last five years is “similar enough”. Windows 10 is very different from 11 to the end user.  Trying to help in-laws over the phone troubleshoot their windows machine is way more frustrating than when they are running an Apple.  Finally, less savvy users seem to get themselv3s into more trouble in windows.

When it’s just me in isolation I don’t have a huge preference- but there is a frustration factor when working in groups, and for me that makes me want them using Apple.

[daverobev]

I believe from a privacy perspective, Apple is significantly better than Google. I have had iphones for the last several years now - I've only just had to replace my iphone 6 with a refurb 2020 SE because software has basically stopped working. It's frustrating because the phone, including the battery, still worked fine.

Prior to that I had cheap Android phones and they were, well, cheap. Note that I take care of my stuff. The phones just either came with craploads of crapware, or were underpowered vs the OS they were trying to run. So, for me, iphone - refurbished lowest price one - all the way.

For computers, I don't like mac OS. I just don't. To be fair I haven't tried it for a while, but whenever I've done stuff on it I just don't get on with it. I had G3, G4, and intel macs over the years.

I like Windows 7. It doesn't (assuming you don't install the specific updates) spy on you, nor does it install random shit. It is an OS. I am allergic to Windows 10, and moreso to 11. New installs are getting Debian - my 'gaming' PC has Debian and Steam, and does ok for what I want to do. Bear in mind I am using ~10 year old hardware here and it works perfectly well. For laptops I am using refurb Dell Latitudes. Again, I take care of my stuff, so the one I got off-least direct from Dell still looks pretty new. I got a second one (which has Debian) a few years after and it looks a little rougher but it's still fine. I don't do particularly processor-intensive stuff, however. Still, Microsoft can take a long walk off a short cliff - they have embraced the dark side as shown by Google.

A decent quality, refurb, business laptop where you can replace the battery and upgrade the RAM is going to be just as good as a macbook. And about a fifth of the price.

[2sk22]

We pretty much pure Apple in my household: A couple of Macs, Apple studio display, iPhones, iPads, Air Pods and Apple Watch. This may or may not be related to the fact that I bought a $1000 worth of Apple shares in 1997 and still own them :-)

Having a full Apple setup gives you some excellent integrations - I can copy text on my phone and paste it in a text window on my Mac. AirDrop and handoff allow me to transfer data very seamlessly between devices. Photo management has really gotten very good in recent years, I have over 50,000 photos and videos on all of my devices via iCloud syncing.

Also, on the technical side, I still do a lot of programming and am very productive on the Mac (I have been writing code on the Mac for over 14 years). I really like Swift (their programming language) as well as the myriad APIs available on the Apple Ones.

[ChpBstrd]

I finally sold my 12 year old Macbook for $40 a couple of years ago. It served me well BECAUSE I was able to upgrade it with an SSD and more RAM than it was supposed to be able to handle. I also used DosDude's patch to upgrade it to Catalina.

The replacement was a 2018 Dell business laptop (14", quad core, 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM, 95% battery life, USB-C) that I picked up on Ebay for $320. I defy anyone to find me those specs on a macbook for a comparable price. Plus the Dell does not require a $30 adapter to plug into HDMI and it is user-serviceable without special tools or crack-apart cases. Dell's Latitude line is known to be good for a decade, with the usual battery replacement any laptop requires at about the 5 year mark.

The biggest downsides?

-I "upgraded" to Windows 11 but liked Windows 10 better.
-I cannot use my laptop to send texts (links, pictures, etc) through my Iphone SE because of the walled garden. If I had an android phone this would work.
-Had to figure out how to disable Windows' power saving feature for the wifi device so that the wifi device would work when booting into Linux. 

[infromsea]

I believe from a privacy perspective, Apple is significantly better than Google. I have had iphones for the last several years now - I've only just had to replace my iphone 6 with a refurb 2020 SE because software has basically stopped working. It's frustrating because the phone, including the battery, still worked fine.

Prior to that I had cheap Android phones and they were, well, cheap. Note that I take care of my stuff. The phones just either came with craploads of crapware, or were underpowered vs the OS they were trying to run. So, for me, iphone - refurbished lowest price one - all the way.

For computers, I don't like mac OS. I just don't. To be fair I haven't tried it for a while, but whenever I've done stuff on it I just don't get on with it. I had G3, G4, and intel macs over the years.

I like Windows 7. It doesn't (assuming you don't install the specific updates) spy on you, nor does it install random shit. It is an OS. I am allergic to Windows 10, and moreso to 11. New installs are getting Debian - my 'gaming' PC has Debian and Steam, and does ok for what I want to do. Bear in mind I am using ~10 year old hardware here and it works perfectly well. For laptops I am using refurb Dell Latitudes. Again, I take care of my stuff, so the one I got off-least direct from Dell still looks pretty new. I got a second one (which has Debian) a few years after and it looks a little rougher but it's still fine. I don't do particularly processor-intensive stuff, however. Still, Microsoft can take a long walk off a short cliff - they have embraced the dark side as shown by Google.

A decent quality, refurb, business laptop where you can replace the battery and upgrade the RAM is going to be just as good as a macbook. And about a fifth of the price.

Thank you to everyone for your replies and insights. dave, I am probably going to do something like this.

I DO build my own PCS and am running 8 year old hardware on this PC and did not "upgrade" to win 10 until I hit a roadblock on an app and had to move on.... NOW researching linux distros to replace as main OS here and on laptops as you are right dave, MS is sucking every bit of data they can from every place in the OS etc (as is google and most likely apple...). 

It's frustrating how much work the consumer NOW has to do to maintain their privacy WHILE acting as their own tech support since the big guys have crap/non-existent customer service. I would love a third option here, I know linux is the right directions but there are often trade-offs and limitations including more time required by the user to maintain the system/device, while I have plenty of free time, I've been using tech for so long I'm bored with doing my own tech-support like I used to, it just becomes a chore/burden that limits my enjoyment of using said equip.

Even using a phone or the web has become "WORK" in this age, avoiding spammers/scammers, apps and sites designed to manipulate your behavior/responses, it can become exhausting.... I guess I'm an old man yelling at clouds at this point, I 100% can see why people turn to becoming a hermit/monk/other, I guess that is why I was considering the swap of phones, if I could trust apple 10% more without having to spend as much time managing my devices/thinking about this, might be worth it. That or go to the dumb phone and adjust what I use a phone/device for....

(NOTE: I started with a G2 phone and quickly burned out on how "kewl" a phone/device like that is, it didn't take long for it to become a simple tool with all notifications turned off etc, vice a digital leash that I'm beholden to.)

[ChpBstrd]

I would love a third option here, I know linux is the right directions but there are often trade-offs and limitations including more time required by the user to maintain the system/device,

If you are using linux to browse the web, run native applications, use google apps, check email, organize files, and play media, it's practically bulletproof and hands-off these days.

Yes, it requires you to enter your password to install very frequent updates, but I don't mind this extra work because it helps me not forget my password!

People get into tricky technical situations when they want the linux box to do things the big tech companies have developed their walled gardens to do. For example, there are ways to run windows applications on linux, but you're likely to run into some technical challenges getting that to work. In dual-boot situations, sometimes the security features of the Windows or IOS system cause issues on the Linux side, as with my hardware hibernation issue. 

[FINate]

It's frustrating how much work the consumer NOW has to do to maintain their privacy WHILE acting as their own tech support since the big guys have crap/non-existent customer service. I would love a third option here, I know linux is the right directions but there are often trade-offs and limitations including more time required by the user to maintain the system/device, while I have plenty of free time, I've been using tech for so long I'm bored with doing my own tech-support like I used to, it just becomes a chore/burden that limits my enjoyment of using said equip.

I've been using Linux as my main OS for years, and now the entire family uses it. The biggest time investment in Linux is getting the initial configuration the way you want it, along with things like printer drivers and any other such hardware working. But once setup, other than applying weekly updates on my Majaro machines (the kids run Ubuntu with auto updates), I don't spend any time doing support or maintenance.

It's interesting to observe the responses on this thread RE what ecosystem people use and why. It reminds me of pickup trucks, with the Chevy vs Ford crowd. Functionally both brands are very similar, so folks get caught up on what are relatively tiny differences and brand identity. This pickup gets slightly better MPG, has marginally better tow capacity, or whatever. Whereas the percentage of people actually needing 14,000 lbs of tow capacity vs 12,000 lbs is extremely small.

This is a long-winded way of saying that, like pickups, the computer and smartphone market is completely commoditized. For the vast, vast majority of people, computers do everything they need since about the early 2000s, and it's been incremental performance updates since then. This point was reached for smartphones sometime in the 2010s. Very very few people really need the latest hardware, and fewer still need the best of the latest hardware. The typical computer/smartphone consumer today does the equivalent of hauling groceries in a massive pickup.

[Fru-Gal]

I have installed RAM, hard drives, new screens, new keyboards and more on my Mac products! Granted, the smaller they get the harder it is to do. I tried but failed to replace a broken proximity sensor on my iPhone. However I was proud of the fact that I was able to not break anything else and put everything back working.

It was hilarious because everything was so miniaturized. My hands were shaking and I couldn’t see straight! It was like threading a needle, which I can still do at age 53 without glasses even though the needle is blurry and doubled LOL.

[Daley]

-I cannot use my laptop to send texts (links, pictures, etc) through my Iphone SE because of the walled garden. If I had an android phone this would work.

Linux and Android software to the rescue: KDE Connect

For Windows
For Gnome
For iOS
For Android

A decent quality, refurb, business laptop where you can replace the battery and upgrade the RAM is going to be just as good as a macbook. And about a fifth of the price.

Thank you to everyone for your replies and insights. dave, I am probably going to do something like this.
[snip]
It's frustrating how much work the consumer NOW has to do to maintain their privacy WHILE acting as their own tech support since the big guys have crap/non-existent customer service. I would love a third option here, I know linux is the right directions but there are often trade-offs and limitations including more time required by the user to maintain the system/device, while I have plenty of free time, I've been using tech for so long I'm bored with doing my own tech-support like I used to, it just becomes a chore/burden that limits my enjoyment of using said equip.

Used/refurbished SMB/Enterprise laptops from the likes of Dell and Lenovo are where it's at. Makes it easier to avoid exotic hardware like Nvidia GPUs and Broadcom WiFi chipsets that still can cause headaches under Linux.

As for Linux distros, I've been through this song and dance recently after abandoning Linux after more than a decade running it exclusively on my desktop for Windows 10 given I wanted stuff to just work and Windows 10 was that answer when desktop Linux was getting really messy. (Used to use and recommend Debian/Ubuntu, then recommended Arch/Manjaro, but even that grew old.) After coming back to Linux and distro hopping/tire kicking for months recently, I'd about given up and figured I'd have to embrace Windows 11 for better or worse. Repository hell and the prevalence of Gnome really took the wind out of me, figuring that desktop Linux just wouldn't work... then I discovered that something I advocated for two decades ago was finally happening in the Linux world: immutable, semi-rolling release operating systems. The core OS is locked down, standardized, and made read only.

Fedora has come a long way toward being low maintenance and user friendly becoming the upstream for RHEL (enough that Linux Torvalds himself, notorious curmudgeon and easy usability fan switched to it as his distro of choice), and RedHat's gone bleeding edge and have their own version of immutable system called CoreOS, built with OSTree, which brings GIT versioning to core OS files. It takes a minute or two to wrap your mind around how everything works compared to the old ways, and it's not the best solution for people who need a lot of custom command line tools and can't get 95+% of all the software they need off of Flatpak, but if you can and once you do, it's amazing. Stuff just works.

Fedora today is where Ubuntu should have been already... basically a versioned six-month rolling release at this point (best of both stable and current). OSTree is bulletproof, and both their Gnome (Silverblue) and KDE (Kinoite) builds are well rounded, stock, and very complete. Flatpak as a packaging system to an immutable OS is far superior and far less bloated than Snap, and provides sandboxing and granular access controls to the apps themselves. Between OSTree's auto upgrade system and Flatpak, once I understood how it worked and what I actually needed, I can do a clean OS install with all software needed in under an hour. Of all the immutable distros I tried, the learning curve was the shortest and easiest to pick up with OSTree/Fedora after a single afternoon for the core stuff. The installs are stable, (again) bulletproof, and even if something breaks during an install, recovery is trivial. If set up right, it can be as appliance-like as ChromeOS, and comes the closest I've ever seen to the mythical perfect grandma box.

This said, default KDE on a decent distro really leans into the decades of Windows UI/UX experience. Much like macOS, you gotta learn how to do things their way with Gnome, and that learning curve is steep and deeply counterintuitive to the way most people have learned to use a desktop computer. Extra points to KDE Plasma being even lighter on system resources than XFCE these days. Default Kinoite/Wayland desktop at idle weighs in under 1.4GiB.

As for phones? If you're fine with Android but not with Google, look into GrapheneOS, CalyxOS, and /e/OS. Paired with the right hardware, it's a great combo and decent alternative to the quality/experience you get with modern feature phones running KaiOS.

That's all I got.

[ChpBstrd]

In any case I propose that goal of any mustachian should be twofold: first, to hand over as little of their hard-earned cash to tech corporations as possible and second, to waste as little time as possible.

That means:

a) Extending the lifetime of hardware (e.g. installing linux on a 6 year old machine to make it fast again, minimizing unplugged cell phone or laptop use to preserve the batteries, spraying out your motherboard with compressed air every few years)
b) Avoiding spyware and social media (aside from the MMM forum of course!) because
      i) the more targeted ads you view, the more likely you are to waste money or believe false things,
      ii) these apps slow down your system and lead to premature hardware replacement, and
      iii) these apps alter your behavior to lead you to waste more time on them.
c) Avoiding paying for software or media if something good enough can be had from free ecosystems, while respecting rule b). For example, use Tubi instead of paid streaming services, use Linux instead of Windows, use your library system's audiobook service instead of Audible, etc.
d) Perceive information technology as a means to an end rather than an end in itself. This means your phone is a thing for communicating with people and maybe doing a couple of other basic tasks. Your phone is NOT a thing which is supposed to delight you in itself when you unbox and start using the shiny new thing. Tech serves your life, not the other way around.
e) Minimize the cost of your subscription to the internet by purchasing as little bandwidth as possible. This saves money directly and also indirectly shifts your behavior away from wasting your days browsing and watching videos.
f) Attempt to repair your own equipment, when possible. E.g. I just replaced a noisy cooling fan with a spare I had laying around.

With this as a guide, you can select products.

[infromsea]

Too many great responses to quote and respond to each!!!!

Damn!!!

Good stuff and thank you all (and especially the last four posters), we are definitely having the conversation I hoped to have!

ChpB, you really distilled things down in your last post, great "tech manifest" and I agree with almost all parts, I REALLY agree that it's about spending as little as possible while wasting as little time as possible, REALLY well put!

[Fru-Gal]

Amazing manifesto by @ChpBstrd, should be pinned somewhere!

[Daley]

With this as a guide, you can select products.

I never quite put it into words like that, but you summed up well the nature and spirit of my advice that I had tried to give this community going all the way back to 2012 from mobile phone service to phones to computers to operating systems to ISPs.

It's also why, on principle, I cannot recommend Apple to anyone. Between the right-to-repair problems that impact everything from repairs to more affordable upgrade paths for otherwise still useful hardware to the walled-garden to the price, it's a matter of principle. You don't become the world's largest tech company with a $3T market cap with only 31% of the global mobile phone market and 19% of the desktop market without drastically exploiting your own customer base. True frugal and environmentally friendly tech solutions include end-user repairability, upgradeability, and service interoperation between different software platforms. Apple has eliminated all three and sold that loss as a feature through their cargo-cult marketing. If you need proof, look no further than the "green bubble" and the social pressure iPhone users place on everyone else to switch over for their convenience due to deliberately degraded UI usability imposed on THEM through something as simple as a low-contrast background color they can't even turn off or change placed there by Apple. The lock-in is real, expensive, and exploitive.

Unfortunately, the only alternative is to get your hands a little dirty with learning how to install a new OS on your hardware. But it's not as difficult as many think, and it opens up an entire world of cheaper, simpler alternatives.

[Ron Scott]

I generally feel that smartphones and to some extent tablets are amazing deals and bang-for-buck. I can not stand laptops (gave them back when offered free from my employer years ago) and am finding I get 90% of my needs met on a tablet since retirement so computers are not a big deal to me.

I keep iPhones for about 30 months and iPad Pros 5 years or longer (will be getting a new one in 2024).

The Apple ecosystem is well thought out and works well: Their devices are reliable, like Japanese cars.

I know so many people who hate Apple for reasons that have nothing to do with the products, and can’t wait to do side by side photos with me with their Google phones and such, but then end up with glitchy stuff they curse about. My daughter is marrying a tech guy and switched to a Google Pixel and can’t stand it…going back to iPhone later this year.

A couple dollars one way or the other isn’t a big deal on a phone and no one is going to think your rich based on which one you choose.

[Must_ache]

I only have an iPad and I'm impressed and how well it works after so many years.  But I have an android phone iPhones are too expensive.

[Kl285528]

I fought it for a long time - but finally drank the Kool-Aid and went Apple. Happily still rockin' an iPhone 8plus, and a newer MacBook Air - they just work, and work well together - they are just designed to work more seamlessly, especially for a non-techie like myself -

[Michael in ABQ]

I consider myself pretty tech savvy. I've been using computers for 30+ years and built my own for many years when I was a teenager.

That being said, I cannot navigate my wife's iPhone. It is not intuitive to me in the least. I'm constantly trying to find the back button or something similar. I've never really used Apple products and always considered them overpriced and dumbed down.


Also, any Apple privacy that harms Google, Meta, Microsoft, Amazon, et. al. in advertising is probably a long-term play for Apple to setup their own advertising network since they see how incredibly profitable it is for their competitors in the physical/digital ecosystem space. I do feel like Apple is the most walled off of the big tech companies as far as playing nicely with other systems - for better or worse.

[scottish]

I'm having to replace our 2 android phones.   Carriers are shutting down their 3g networks and our phones won't do VoLTE (eg voice over 4g), at least not without a software update that isn't available.  (they're running Android 6)

I'm seriously considering the iPhone primarily for privacy reasons.    The price is pretty ridiculous though.   Is it worth it to continue my campaign of divesting from Google?  I don't know, but I wish BlackBerry was still around.

[RWD]

I'm seriously considering the iPhone primarily for privacy reasons.

You're deluding yourself if you think Apple is better for privacy.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/19/class-action-privacy-lawsuit/

[scottish]

I'm seriously considering the iPhone primarily for privacy reasons.

You're deluding yourself if you think Apple is better for privacy.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/19/class-action-privacy-lawsuit/

So the only answer is getting an open source version of android without google?

[dang1]

I'm seriously considering the iPhone primarily for privacy reasons.

You're deluding yourself if you think Apple is better for privacy.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/19/class-action-privacy-lawsuit/

So the only answer is getting an open source version of android without google?

"Daley « Reply #19 on: June 06, 2023, 12:33:20 PM »
look into GrapheneOS, CalyxOS, and /e/OS“

[scottish]

I'm seriously considering the iPhone primarily for privacy reasons.

You're deluding yourself if you think Apple is better for privacy.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/19/class-action-privacy-lawsuit/

So the only answer is getting an open source version of android without google?

"Daley « Reply #19 on: June 06, 2023, 12:33:20 PM »
look into GrapheneOS, CalyxOS, and /e/OS“

Yeah, what I said.       Open source version of android without google.

That'd be a tough call.    Get a new phone, blow away the factory O/S and install one of these options.   You have to give up any app that uses google services - good for enhancing privacy but bound to remove some high utility apps.   But you're free of google's privacy problems.    Getting rid of the megacorp's data collection is a huge plus.

I can't find much insight into how much better these alternatives are going to be for security as opposed to privacy.   The os groups are presumably porting security fixes from Android as they come up, but they can't have the same level of scrutiny for vulnerabilities specific to them...

Food for thought...

[dang1]

different platforms / opsec levels, for different people / situations.

[Daley]

I can't find much insight into how much better these alternatives are going to be for security as opposed to privacy. The os groups are presumably porting security fixes from Android as they come up, but they can't have the same level of scrutiny for vulnerabilities specific to them...

Then buy a new Pixel and go Graphene. Security focused first, independently audited by third party, and doesn't support much past the official EOL for the phone. Their FAQ.

[FIRE 20/20]

I have installed RAM, hard drives, new screens, new keyboards and more on my Mac products! Granted, the smaller they get the harder it is to do. I tried but failed to replace a broken proximity sensor on my iPhone. However I was proud of the fact that I was able to not break anything else and put everything back working.

It was hilarious because everything was so miniaturized. My hands were shaking and I couldn’t see straight! It was like threading a needle, which I can still do at age 53 without glasses even though the needle is blurry and doubled LOL.

Unfortunately, Apple has removed the ability to upgrade RAM and storage with the change to their M1 and later chips.  It's not technically impossible; an engineer in China demonstrated that it was possible to do but it's vastly more difficult to upgrade the new Apple products than is used to be. 

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/04/06/theoretically-you-can-upgrade-ram-ssd-on-your-m1-mac-mini-but-you-shouldnt

[Fru-Gal]

Yeah, not surprised. Also I was upgrading a desktop, not laptop. The smaller the things are the harder it is to fix, no?

[JLee]

I drank the koolaid when Apple Silicon came out - I've been a steadfast Windows / Android user for decades, but it was such a huge leap I ended up going full into the Apple ecosystem for everyting except my desktop. The base M1 MacBook Air that launched in 2020 is still a nice system. They launched at $999 and my local Microcenter has them for $850 now.

"But it only has 8GB RAM, blah blah"

For the vast majority of people, it's fine - I replaced a recent Dell XPS15 with 64GB RAM and was shocked.  The battery life is absolutely crazy as well. Apple Silicon was a gamechanger.  An M1/M2 iPad Pro is absurdly powerful, and with cell connectivity and a keyboard it can almost entirely replace a laptop for me - it's amazing being able to work on the road without needing a hotspot or wifi, and the smaller footprint of the iPad with keyboard works much better on flights. Add the ability for an iPad to be a second display for a MacBook and it makes for a lovely portable work setup.

And yes, it's expensive -- there are cheaper ways to do things.  I'm happy to accept the cost for what I get out of it.

[Woodshark]

I'm not a Apple fan boy. I've been a PC guy for decades. Probably because I started computer tech before Apple was a thing. Anyway, my first few cell phones were Android based. After a frustrating few weeks of dealing with some problem with it, a good friend said
"Just get a iphone. The damn things just work and don't ask me why"  I'm still a PC guy for my computer but I've owned iphones for years because the damn things just work.

[Ron Scott]

The Vision Pro may be awesome tho…

[billy]

I tried a lot of OS's for PC's and was a long time Android user. Currently I have a bunch of Apple products, and I think the price is worth it if you stick to the base models, except the AirPods Pro 2 are standard issue when working on the house. Chrome OS is also a great value (with a long end of life date.)

[mstr d]

I like to play old strategy games thats why I use windows. And I just prefer it.

I just don't like Apple products , they are overpriced for symilair products.

I don't use any browser plugins or anything else. Just google chrome.
Pc is for writing something our do my taxes on. Don't spend my life behind a screen.

I think life is out there , there is so much to see in the world.