Author Topic: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility  (Read 11646 times)

Masstache

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I FIREd partway through 2016 and happily signed my family of 4 up for an ACA plan (without subsidies) on the Massachusetts Health Connector.  In October, in preparation for open enrollment for 2017 and at the incessant urging of the Health Connector, I updated our income (actual to-date 2016 and expected remainder of 2016 and 2017) in the MA Health Connector system.  Having done a lot of pre-FIRE planning and digested seattlecyclone's excellent FIRE-centric ACA summary at https://seattlecyclone.com/optimizing-the-affordable-care-act/ I provided an honest and accurate forecast of our expected FIRE income (which has us below 250% FPL).
 
A few days later I learned what a huge mistake this honesty was.  By simply submitting the updated income info, I was in effect relinquishing all control over my health insurance decisions.  My 2 kids were immediately removed from the Silver ACA HMO plan and placed into Masshealth Family Assistance, one of the expanded Medicaid plans in MA.  My wife and I were left in the Silver plan for 2016, but for 2017 enrollment options, the Health Connector only allowed us to select from 5 limited-network ConnectorCare plans (in MA the ACA "cost-sharing subsidies" are provided by creating separate plans for those with less than 300+5% FPL) vs. the dozens of plans normally available. 

All this was done without giving us the option to remain in the Silver Plan.  Perhaps I was naive in expecting that before my kids were moved to Medicaid I would first receive something saying "Based on your expected income you now qualify for Plan X.  Please let us know if you would like to take advantage of Plan X or stay in your current Plan Y."   My wife and I fully support the existence of Medicaid to provide health care for those who can't otherwise afford it, and we are happy to live in an expanded Medicaid state.  And being mustachians, we certainly don't like to spend extra money when it is not necessary.  But health care premiums are something we carefully budgeted for in our post-FIRE life, and we can afford to pay for our health care.   We don't ethically feel that it is right for our kids to be in this program just because our MAGI income is deemed to be poverty-level.  We now qualify for food stamps and free school lunch programs and subsidized government housing programs, but we will happily pay full price at the grocery store and pack our kids with bag lunches and pay the full cost necessary to live in our current house.

Skipping the painful and gory details, after 6+ weeks wrangling with the Health Connector and its fine customer service staff, I was able to get us all back on the original Silver Plan with access to all available plans for 2017.  The clear lesson learned was that if you want access to all ACA plan options (in MA at least) and want to avoid being on Medicaid, you need to forecast income above 400% FPL, forego access to monthly premium subsidies and all cost-sharing subsidies, and then claim the premium tax credit on your taxes based on your actual income.   Is this the same in other states, I wonder, or is this just a MA approach?   

If these programs are only based on income, should we just drop the ethical objections and take the free health care (and free lunch and free housing), since that sometimes seems much easier than doing the right thing?

Spork

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2016, 12:26:19 PM »

The clear lesson learned was that if you want access to all ACA plan options (in MA at least) and want to avoid being on Medicaid, you need to forecast income above 400% FPL, forego access to monthly premium subsidies and all cost-sharing subsidies, and then claim the premium tax credit on your taxes based on your actual income.   Is this the same in other states, I wonder, or is this just a MA approach?   


Sorry you had to go through bureaucracy hell. 

I can't state emphatically for all other states...
2016 plan in Texas: our application was between 250-300% FPL and had no issues with subsidies (once I got them to approve me, which was a little difficult).
2017 plan in Texas: we are aiming for just below 400% FPL and so far no issues.

My understanding (possibly wrong) is that Medicaid kicks in below 138% of FPL.  (I'm not sure where your application was other than "below 250%").

jim555

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2016, 12:30:08 PM »
Are you crazy, just take the free.  You have paid taxes for years so why not?  You are recovering stolen property. 
This all goes away soon anyway.

Masstache

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2016, 01:15:53 PM »
My understanding (possibly wrong) is that Medicaid kicks in below 138% of FPL.  (I'm not sure where your application was other than "below 250%").

Regular Medicaid is below 138% FPL, but Massachusetts participates in the expanded Medicaid and offers MassHealth for everything below 300+5% FPL.   

whiskeyjack

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2016, 01:29:43 PM »
The clear lesson learned was that if you want access to all ACA plan options (in MA at least) and want to avoid being on Medicaid, you need to forecast income above 400% FPL, forego access to monthly premium subsidies and all cost-sharing subsidies, and then claim the premium tax credit on your taxes based on your actual income.   Is this the same in other states, I wonder, or is this just a MA approach?   

If these programs are only based on income, should we just drop the ethical objections and take the free health care (and free lunch and free housing), since that sometimes seems much easier than doing the right thing?

We're in WA State and had the same thing happen.   We haven't worked out exactly what we want to do about it.  Probably we will save the money for what I anticipate will be much higher expenses in 2018

Lake161

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2016, 05:03:16 PM »
In California, you can choose to not submit any income information when you sign up. I did this for 2016 as our income would have been very confusing and I wasn't going to qualify for cost-sharing anyways. I will just collect the tax credit when I file.

OutlierinMA

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2016, 07:33:15 PM »
Thanks for the warning, Masstache, I was up late last night filling out my application with updated 2017 estimated income, canceling, re-doing, and canceling, thank goodness I did not submit. I will skip the income update and wait to claim the Federal credit on my 2017 tax return.

What kept me from submitting was the boilerplate on the final sign and submit page. It said something about contacting employers and previous employers about plans available, plan cost, etc. Yikes! Thanks but no thanks.

misshathaway

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2016, 03:44:10 AM »
I live in MA too, so I was very interested in your post. Thanks for writing it.

Something similar happened to me, but at just under 138% for a single filer. It was partly my fault for doing the estimated income over the phone. The person taking the info kept telling me "Oh, that doesn't count" for several categories, like a part-time job that I only did for a few months. I ended up on Medicaid paying 0. I knew that was crazy so at that point I delved into the income rules and realized that she was wrong and also that I did not take into consideration one-time December projected dividends.

I sent a letter with the new income that was correct according to their online info, which I should have read more carefully in the first place. That put me over 138% and into a subsidized Silver and it was fixed, after many phone calls, before the effective date of the Medicaid. So now I had unsubsidized ending aug 31 and subsidized starting sep 1. I thought that everything was fine.

My prior unsubsidized plan was autopay taken out of my bank account. ConnectorCare told me to cancel the autopay and then re-do it after the old plan's last effective day b/c autopay changes are very slow so I would continue to get billed the same amount and have a hard time getting a refund. So I did that. The last autopay was july 23 covering August. In August I switched the payment to the new amount and reinstated autopay.

I had a radiology appt in August and got a $400-and-change bill from the hospital. I called them and was told that my insurance had expired July 31. I called ConnectorCare and Minuteman, the HMO. Minuteman said that they had no record of my new subsidized plan. ConnectorCare said that they had sent the new plan info to Minuteman. I got the bill at the end of August so I was bopping along unaware that I had NO health insurance for weeks. I had paid for health insurance but I didn't have any.

The new situation took many phone calls to straighten out. Meanwhile I'm freaking out that I have no health insurance and the hospital is sending me dunning mail escalating to dunning phone calls. ConnectorCare blamed Minuteman and Minuteman blamed ConnectorCare. After a couple of weeks Minuteman retroactively reinstated the policy back to its effective date.

The takeaway from this is not poor me, since I am grateful for the subsidy. But you must use your own informed common sense before acting on anything you hear from ConnectorCare over the phone.

R62

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2016, 08:07:51 AM »

[/quote]
We're in WA State and had the same thing happen.   We haven't worked out exactly what we want to do about it.  Probably we will save the money for what I anticipate will be much higher expenses in 2018
[/quote]

Tread carefully.  We're in WA state, and were automatically enrolled in Applecare (Medicaid) after having enrolled and purchased a QHP through the exchange.  (This came about as a result of incorrect info we received from the exchange regarding reporting of income for verification - details provided on request.)   The real situation was we most definitely qualified for subsidies, and not for Medicaid.   It took quite a bit of effort to get us un-enrolled from Medicaid, and we found out only after the fact that in Washington State denial by the consumer of Medicaid benefits means forfeiting rights to the ACA subsidies.   At no time during the process of un-enrolling from Medicaid were we advised of this.

We had to initiate the appeals process with the state to get the subsidies re-instated.  Even so, our initial start-and-stop-and-start status with the insurance provider led to billing issues:  there was all kinds of confusion as to application of our payments (which were current at all times), and we routinely were kicked out of the health plan due to billing issues, even after the appeals process was completed.  It took about 6 months for the whole thing to shake out and settle down.  :(

My advice for anyone dealing with similar:  keep scrupulous written notes with dates, names and confirmation numbers where available.  Without that info, I'm not sure we would have won our appeal or resolved the issues with application of payments as (relatively) handily as we did.

whiskeyjack

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2016, 09:29:23 AM »

We're in WA State and had the same thing happen.   We haven't worked out exactly what we want to do about it.  Probably we will save the money for what I anticipate will be much higher expenses in 2018

Tread carefully.  We're in WA state, and were automatically enrolled in Applecare (Medicaid) after having enrolled and purchased a QHP through the exchange.  (This came about as a result of incorrect info we received from the exchange regarding reporting of income for verification - details provided on request.)   The real situation was we most definitely qualified for subsidies, and not for Medicaid.   It took quite a bit of effort to get us un-enrolled from Medicaid, and we found out only after the fact that in Washington State denial by the consumer of Medicaid benefits means forfeiting rights to the ACA subsidies.   At no time during the process of un-enrolling from Medicaid were we advised of this.

I already have concerns:  as I read it we qualify for subsidy if you go by our annual income for last year (which is what I was looking at when I made the purchase) but in the recent phone call they say that Medicare doesn't care about your annual, only your month-to-month.  If that's true then we would have been placed on Medicare since August.   There's a chance we won't get the premium cost refunded on our taxes depending on how the Feds look at it.

Clarification:  are you saying that you were OK until you went from Medicare back onto the ACA?  And that was considered rejecting Medicare because they had your numbers wrong?

**edited to fix quote attribution
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 04:10:15 PM by whiskeyjack »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2016, 10:34:25 AM »
A few days later I learned what a huge mistake this honesty was.  By simply submitting the updated income info, I was in effect relinquishing all control over my health insurance decisions.  My 2 kids were immediately removed from the Silver ACA HMO plan and placed into Masshealth Family Assistance, one of the expanded Medicaid plans in MA.  My wife and I were left in the Silver plan for 2016, but for 2017 enrollment options, the Health Connector only allowed us to select from 5 limited-network ConnectorCare plans (in MA the ACA "cost-sharing subsidies" are provided by creating separate plans for those with less than 300+5% FPL) vs. the dozens of plans normally available. 

Regarding the kids, Washington does a similar thing, putting kids in Apple Health (Medicaid) up to what looks like 317% of the FPL based on their eligibility chart, with nominal monthly premiums for families on the higher end of that range. The Medicaid threshold is still at 138% for adults.

We do the cost sharing plans differently though; they seem to all be marketed under the same carriers, plan names, and networks as the full-price plans, just with lower deductibles and out-of-pocket maximums.

But every state marketplace is different. I've been working with my mother to try and get her on a subsidized plan in Minnesota until she's old enough for Medicare. There they send everyone under 200% of the FPL but above the Medicaid cutoff onto a special "Minnesota Care" plan with very nominal premiums and co-pays for services. Seems like a pretty good deal, especially compared to the at least $10k she'd probably end up spending if their income was above that line.

Quote
All this was done without giving us the option to remain in the Silver Plan.  Perhaps I was naive in expecting that before my kids were moved to Medicaid I would first receive something saying "Based on your expected income you now qualify for Plan X.  Please let us know if you would like to take advantage of Plan X or stay in your current Plan Y."   My wife and I fully support the existence of Medicaid to provide health care for those who can't otherwise afford it, and we are happy to live in an expanded Medicaid state.  And being mustachians, we certainly don't like to spend extra money when it is not necessary.  But health care premiums are something we carefully budgeted for in our post-FIRE life, and we can afford to pay for our health care.   We don't ethically feel that it is right for our kids to be in this program just because our MAGI income is deemed to be poverty-level.  We now qualify for food stamps and free school lunch programs and subsidized government housing programs, but we will happily pay full price at the grocery store and pack our kids with bag lunches and pay the full cost necessary to live in our current house.

I understand your frustration about being unexpectedly shunted into a plan you didn't want without consultation, a plan that might not let you see doctors you know well. However I find it hard to follow your ethics argument. You were perfectly happy to accept an income-based government subsidy covering 90+% of your health care costs, but when they offer you a 100% subsidy that's somehow crossing an ethical line?

My feeling on most of these programs is that you should absolutely not feel bad availing yourselves of the ones to which you are legally entitled. If Congress thought it was important to make sure low-income millionaires couldn't get benefits, they would put a wealth or investment income test into it (such as has been done for food stamps and the earned income tax credit, among other things). You didn't get to opt out of the taxation that paid for the welfare state when you were working; you shouldn't let anyone shame you into opting out of using those programs when the stated qualifications apply to you.

Quote
Skipping the painful and gory details, after 6+ weeks wrangling with the Health Connector and its fine customer service staff, I was able to get us all back on the original Silver Plan with access to all available plans for 2017.  The clear lesson learned was that if you want access to all ACA plan options (in MA at least) and want to avoid being on Medicaid, you need to forecast income above 400% FPL, forego access to monthly premium subsidies and all cost-sharing subsidies, and then claim the premium tax credit on your taxes based on your actual income.   Is this the same in other states, I wonder, or is this just a MA approach? 

My understanding is that you should be able to get the premium subsidy, but not any cost-sharing subsidy, back when you file your taxes if you end up with a qualifying income. Whether the state marketplace sees fit to front you that money on a monthly basis depends on their own bureaucratic processes.


It took quite a bit of effort to get us un-enrolled from Medicaid, and we found out only after the fact that in Washington State denial by the consumer of Medicaid benefits means forfeiting rights to the ACA subsidies

More correctly, being eligible for Medicaid makes you ineligible for ACA subsidies. This is true anywhere in the country. Seems reasonable for the state, having determined you were eligible for Medicaid, would cancel your ACA subsidies whether you enroll in Medicaid or not. What you should have done instead of simply turning down Medicaid is to instead make sure they agreed you had too high of an income for Medicaid. Of course, it's hardly your fault for not knowing that. This stuff is complicated!

Thanks everyone for your anecdotes. I think I may need to edit my blog post a bit.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 01:19:11 PM by seattlecyclone »

R62

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2016, 01:09:39 PM »

We're in WA State and had the same thing happen.   We haven't worked out exactly what we want to do about it.  Probably we will save the money for what I anticipate will be much higher expenses in 2018

Tread carefully.  We're in WA state, and were automatically enrolled in Applecare (Medicaid) after having enrolled and purchased a QHP through the exchange.  (This came about as a result of incorrect info we received from the exchange regarding reporting of income for verification - details provided on request.)   The real situation was we most definitely qualified for subsidies, and not for Medicaid.   It took quite a bit of effort to get us un-enrolled from Medicaid, and we found out only after the fact that in Washington State denial by the consumer of Medicaid benefits means forfeiting rights to the ACA subsidies.   At no time during the process of un-enrolling from Medicaid were we advised of this.
[/quote]

I already have concerns:  as I read it we qualify for subsidy if you go by our annual income for last year (which is what I was looking at when I made the purchase) but in the recent phone call they say that Medicare doesn't care about your annual, only your month-to-month.  If that's true then we would have been placed on Medicare since August.   There's a chance we won't get the premium cost refunded on our taxes depending on how the Feds look at it.

Clarification:  are you saying that you were OK until you went from Medicare back onto the ACA?  And that was considered rejecting Medicare because they had your numbers wrong?
[/quote]

Well, in my mind we were not "OK" as soon as our QHP, which we had paid for, was cancelled and we were put on Medicaid.   We became "OK" again only after we were re-enrolled with the QHP, and with subsidies.




jim555

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2016, 04:02:24 PM »
Subsidies don't apply for Medicaid and you are not forfeiting any rights by being in it.  If you are in a metal plan for part year, those months you are in it can get subsidies.  Say the last six months you are in Medicaid then you get no subsidies for those months since Medicaid is not insurance and subsidies don't apply.

brooklynguy

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2016, 05:52:23 PM »
Subsidies don't apply for Medicaid and you are not forfeiting any rights by being in it.  If you are in a metal plan for part year, those months you are in it can get subsidies.  Say the last six months you are in Medicaid then you get no subsidies for those months since Medicaid is not insurance and subsidies don't apply.

If your annual income is low enough to qualify you for Medicaid, then you are not eligible for ACA subsidies for any part of that year.  If you've already received advance subsidies during the year (directly deducted from the premiums you paid), it is possible that you will be protected from having them clawed back when your tax liability is determined (even though you were ineligible for them), but otherwise you won't be getting any subsidies.  That is why it's important to make sure your actual income for the year is above the threshold if you purchase a plan on the exchange counting on receiving subsidies.

liberty53

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2016, 06:11:18 PM »
I live in Mass and retired this year. I had similar enrollment problems but ended up getting a ConnectorCare plan that has no cost to me (apparently). I didn't want to be in this plan but I spent hours and hours on the phone trying to get them to tell me what was needed to verify additional income for 2016. This income is coming from some partnerships that report income to me on K-1's, however, the partnerships just started and I didn't have any K-1's to show them to verify any additional income. The State kicked me into MassHealth with basically gold plated coverage.

I got tired of fighting it and figured it will get corrected in 2017 - in the meantime I'm catching up on all my deferred health issues at no cost to me!

I'm not too impressed with the performance of these ACA organizations. Any situation out of the ordinary seems likely to be handled poorly.


jim555

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2016, 07:39:31 PM »
Subsidies don't apply for Medicaid and you are not forfeiting any rights by being in it.  If you are in a metal plan for part year, those months you are in it can get subsidies.  Say the last six months you are in Medicaid then you get no subsidies for those months since Medicaid is not insurance and subsidies don't apply.

If your annual income is low enough to qualify you for Medicaid, then you are not eligible for ACA subsidies for any part of that year.  If you've already received advance subsidies during the year (directly deducted from the premiums you paid), it is possible that you will be protected from having them clawed back when your tax liability is determined (even though you were ineligible for them), but otherwise you won't be getting any subsidies.  That is why it's important to make sure your actual income for the year is above the threshold if you purchase a plan on the exchange counting on receiving subsidies.
It is possible to have actual yearly income of less than 100 FPL and still get a subsidy.

Instructions for Form 8962 line 6 state:
"You may qualify for the PTC if your
household income is less than 100% of the Federal poverty line
and you meet all of the following requirements.
You or an individual in your tax family enrolled in a qualified
health plan through a Marketplace.
The Marketplace estimated at the time of enrollment that your
household income would be at least 100% but not more than
400% of the Federal poverty line for your family size for 2016.
APTC was paid for the coverage for one or more months
during 2016."

brooklynguy

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2016, 08:01:39 PM »
Subsidies don't apply for Medicaid and you are not forfeiting any rights by being in it.  If you are in a metal plan for part year, those months you are in it can get subsidies.  Say the last six months you are in Medicaid then you get no subsidies for those months since Medicaid is not insurance and subsidies don't apply.

If your annual income is low enough to qualify you for Medicaid, then you are not eligible for ACA subsidies for any part of that year.  If you've already received advance subsidies during the year (directly deducted from the premiums you paid), it is possible that you will be protected from having them clawed back when your tax liability is determined (even though you were ineligible for them), but otherwise you won't be getting any subsidies.  That is why it's important to make sure your actual income for the year is above the threshold if you purchase a plan on the exchange counting on receiving subsidies.
It is possible to have actual yearly income of less than 100 FPL and still get a subsidy.

Instructions for Form 8962 line 6 state:
"You may qualify for the PTC if your
household income is less than 100% of the Federal poverty line
and you meet all of the following requirements.
You or an individual in your tax family enrolled in a qualified
health plan through a Marketplace.
The Marketplace estimated at the time of enrollment that your
household income would be at least 100% but not more than
400% of the Federal poverty line for your family size for 2016.
APTC was paid for the coverage for one or more months
during 2016."

Yes, but only if you get advance premium tax credits (i.e., get the subsidies applied directly to your premiums, instead of waiting for reconciliation at tax time), and that shouldn't happen in a scenario where your actual annual income ends up below the threshold unless you actually overestimated your annual income (in other words, you shouldn't obtain coverage on an exchange and accept ACA subsidies knowing that you will not actually qualify based on your anticipated annual income).  If you don't get advance premium tax credits, and your annual income is below the cutoff, you can't get those credits applied to your tax liability for any part of the year.

Edited for typos.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 08:06:55 PM by brooklynguy »

wanderin1

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2016, 08:19:53 PM »
Not to hijack the thread, but interested in advice: I am located in WA, FIRED with medicare years away, so I buy an individual plan. Dividends and capital gains meant income last year was way too high for ACA subsidies. Expect the same to be true this year, but I can’t tell 100% right now. Am deciding between identical plans offered by the same insurer for purchase via the exchange or direct from them. In this situation, are there reasons for me to purchase on the exchange? Direct from the company? Thanks!

Masstache

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2016, 07:00:16 AM »
Not to hijack the thread, but interested in advice: I am located in WA, FIRED with medicare years away, so I buy an individual plan. Dividends and capital gains meant income last year was way too high for ACA subsidies. Expect the same to be true this year, but I can’t tell 100% right now. Am deciding between identical plans offered by the same insurer for purchase via the exchange or direct from them. In this situation, are there reasons for me to purchase on the exchange? Direct from the company? Thanks!

My understanding is that if you buy insurance directly from the insurer, you do not qualify for any subsidies even if your income ends up being below 400% FPL.   So if there is any chance your income will be low enough to claim subsidies, you should get the insurance through the exchange.

Masstache

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2016, 07:27:54 AM »

I understand your frustration about being unexpectedly shunted into a plan you didn't want without consultation, a plan that might not let you see doctors you know well. However I find it hard to follow your ethics argument. You were perfectly happy to accept an income-based government subsidy covering 90+% of your health care costs, but when they offer you a 100% subsidy that's somehow crossing an ethical line?

My feeling on most of these programs is that you should absolutely not feel bad availing yourselves of the ones to which you are legally entitled. If Congress thought it was important to make sure low-income millionaires couldn't get benefits, they would put a wealth or investment income test into it (such as has been done for food stamps and the earned income tax credit, among other things). You didn't get to opt out of the taxation that paid for the welfare state when you were working; you shouldn't let anyone shame you into opting out of using those programs when the stated qualifications apply to you.


Yeah, these are good points and that is why I wanted to throw this open to the wisdom of the forum.   I guess I have been viewing it as a distinction between tax incentives and government programs.   I see claiming ACA subsidies (and optimizing income to maximize subsidies) as a tax strategy, in the same category as claiming mortgage interest deductions, child tax credits, and clean energy credits.  On the other hand, I see Medicaid as a government program for "poor" or "needy" people who really need the help to survive (vs. people who are "low income by choice because they can carefully control taxable income from their carefully accumulated stash"), in the same category as food stamps, housing assistance, and home energy assistance.   But maybe it is an arbitrary distinction and what it really comes down to is the ingrained stigma of "being on welfare".  Because it seems (to me at least) traditionally in the US minimizing taxes is celebrated as savvy and smart, but being on government assistance (especially by choice) means you are lazy and worthy of disdain.

LAGuy

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2016, 10:03:54 PM »
Yeah, it's certainly a mess. It's pretty obvious they want to push as many people as they can into Medicaid programs. Out here in CA, after getting laid off but prior to hitting the road for some much needed travel and R&R, I tried to sign up for ACA for the rest of 2016. I qualified for outside open enrollment because I was laid off. I filled out all the online info, showing where I made over $100k for the year. However, I made the "mistake" of saying my current income is "zero" as I wasn't working anymore for the year. Immediately got dumped into the Medicaid plan, even though I obviously didn't qualify. Trying to sort it out was a huge nightmare; "this needs to be escalated and a resolution will be communicated to you in 15 to 20 business days after supervisor review" - and never really did get fixed. I'm just insured through an international traveler plan at the moment. For the new year, I just put some high estimated income figure down. I'll get reimbursed later.

jim555

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2016, 12:04:08 AM »
Yeah, it's certainly a mess. It's pretty obvious they want to push as many people as they can into Medicaid programs. Out here in CA, after getting laid off but prior to hitting the road for some much needed travel and R&R, I tried to sign up for ACA for the rest of 2016. I qualified for outside open enrollment because I was laid off. I filled out all the online info, showing where I made over $100k for the year. However, I made the "mistake" of saying my current income is "zero" as I wasn't working anymore for the year. Immediately got dumped into the Medicaid plan, even though I obviously didn't qualify. Trying to sort it out was a huge nightmare; "this needs to be escalated and a resolution will be communicated to you in 15 to 20 business days after supervisor review" - and never really did get fixed. I'm just insured through an international traveler plan at the moment. For the new year, I just put some high estimated income figure down. I'll get reimbursed later.
They correctly put you in Medicaid which is based on monthly income.  You could make a billion last month but would qualify for Medicaid if the next month was zero.  Which is actually very good for people who get laid off, it is working as designed as a safety net.

LAGuy

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2016, 07:32:24 AM »
Yeah, it's certainly a mess. It's pretty obvious they want to push as many people as they can into Medicaid programs. Out here in CA, after getting laid off but prior to hitting the road for some much needed travel and R&R, I tried to sign up for ACA for the rest of 2016. I qualified for outside open enrollment because I was laid off. I filled out all the online info, showing where I made over $100k for the year. However, I made the "mistake" of saying my current income is "zero" as I wasn't working anymore for the year. Immediately got dumped into the Medicaid plan, even though I obviously didn't qualify. Trying to sort it out was a huge nightmare; "this needs to be escalated and a resolution will be communicated to you in 15 to 20 business days after supervisor review" - and never really did get fixed. I'm just insured through an international traveler plan at the moment. For the new year, I just put some high estimated income figure down. I'll get reimbursed later.
They correctly put you in Medicaid which is based on monthly income.  You could make a billion last month but would qualify for Medicaid if the next month was zero.  Which is actually very good for people who get laid off, it is working as designed as a safety net.

Really? Then what's the purpose of COBRA? It was my understanding that after a layoff the best course of action is to decline COBRA and sign up for ACA.

jim555

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2016, 08:49:46 AM »
Yeah, it's certainly a mess. It's pretty obvious they want to push as many people as they can into Medicaid programs. Out here in CA, after getting laid off but prior to hitting the road for some much needed travel and R&R, I tried to sign up for ACA for the rest of 2016. I qualified for outside open enrollment because I was laid off. I filled out all the online info, showing where I made over $100k for the year. However, I made the "mistake" of saying my current income is "zero" as I wasn't working anymore for the year. Immediately got dumped into the Medicaid plan, even though I obviously didn't qualify. Trying to sort it out was a huge nightmare; "this needs to be escalated and a resolution will be communicated to you in 15 to 20 business days after supervisor review" - and never really did get fixed. I'm just insured through an international traveler plan at the moment. For the new year, I just put some high estimated income figure down. I'll get reimbursed later.
They correctly put you in Medicaid which is based on monthly income.  You could make a billion last month but would qualify for Medicaid if the next month was zero.  Which is actually very good for people who get laid off, it is working as designed as a safety net.

Really? Then what's the purpose of COBRA? It was my understanding that after a layoff the best course of action is to decline COBRA and sign up for ACA.
COBRA was pre-ACA to give folks the ability to have continuous coverage after leaving a job.  This was important because many insurance companies would not write a policy to someone who did not have continuous coverage (or write it with extreme premiums).

After ACA it makes more sense for most people to go to the ACA and skip COBRA.

Laura Ingalls

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2016, 10:03:47 AM »

I understand your frustration about being unexpectedly shunted into a plan you didn't want without consultation, a plan that might not let you see doctors you know well. However I find it hard to follow your ethics argument. You were perfectly happy to accept an income-based government subsidy covering 90+% of your health care costs, but when they offer you a 100% subsidy that's somehow crossing an ethical line?

My feeling on most of these programs is that you should absolutely not feel bad availing yourselves of the ones to which you are legally entitled. If Congress thought it was important to make sure low-income millionaires couldn't get benefits, they would put a wealth or investment income test into it (such as has been done for food stamps and the earned income tax credit, among other things). You didn't get to opt out of the taxation that paid for the welfare state when you were working; you shouldn't let anyone shame you into opting out of using those programs when the stated qualifications apply to you.


Yeah, these are good points and that is why I wanted to throw this open to the wisdom of the forum.   I guess I have been viewing it as a distinction between tax incentives and government programs.   I see claiming ACA subsidies (and optimizing income to maximize subsidies) as a tax strategy, in the same category as claiming mortgage interest deductions, child tax credits, and clean energy credits.  On the other hand, I see Medicaid as a government program for "poor" or "needy" people who really need the help to survive (vs. people who are "low income by choice because they can carefully control taxable income from their carefully accumulated stash"), in the same category as food stamps, housing assistance, and home energy assistance.   But maybe it is an arbitrary distinction and what it really comes down to is the ingrained stigma of "being on welfare".  Because it seems (to me at least) traditionally in the US minimizing taxes is celebrated as savvy and smart, but being on government assistance (especially by choice) means you are lazy and worthy of disdain.

But at the end of the day money is fungible and the money does not if it was spent providing you with a subsidy or Medicaid.  The line had to be somewhere.  Most likely it is more expensive to give you the subsidy than Medicaid.  If Medicaid provides adequate care for your situation carry on.  I doubt with healthy kids with no chronic conditions it will matter too much. YLMMV.

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2016, 10:15:13 PM »
Part of the difficulty you can run into is that Medicaid cut-offs vary state to state for children (and pregnant women), here are state by state summary for each if it is helpful:
Medicaid and CHIP Eligibility Levels

As for your concerns about the source of money, well you aren't alone as Most People Are Irrational About The Fungibility Of Money :
"It is, of course, fundamentally hard to strip emotion away from the source of money, but the evidence strongly suggests that we need to do so.  Money is money is money.  It’s all fungible and a behaviorally educated person will put their emotions to one side..."

NoNonsenseLandlord

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2016, 12:11:02 PM »
Funny how that works. 

If you want to pay your own way, you get to choose what you want.  When someone else pays, they decide.

FIRE me

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2016, 07:46:41 PM »
In California, you can choose to not submit any income information when you sign up. I did this for 2016 as our income would have been very confusing and I wasn't going to qualify for cost-sharing anyways. I will just collect the tax credit when I file.
True but if your MAGI ends up being too low to qualify for tax credits you won't be reimbursed and will end up paying full amount plus "possibly" be kicked off the plan into medicaid.

Everyone's personal situation is different, plus there is state by state variation. 

I'm FIREing next week, and I plan to make my income artificially high in 2017. I'll actually take more out of my IRA than I need, so that I will qualify for regular subsidized ACA insurance instead of Medicaid.

Of course, I won't spend the excess income, I will just reinvest it in a taxable account.

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2016, 08:07:33 PM »
Pardon my ignorance, but what's wrong with having the kids on Medicaid? Lack of doctors, stigma, or what?

malacca

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2016, 09:43:56 PM »
Same thing happened to me a few years back when the ACA first kicked in. I spent weeks pouring over the plans on the ACA to find the best fit for us. I fill out the application only to be given something different. I had a good year financially but as I added a lot of assets with high first year depreciation my MAGI was low.

The problem I have with US medical care is 1) The main problem is NOT insurance, it is the cost of medical care. The industry is one bit fat monopoly that takes 20+% of GNP for mediocre results. 2) My medical doctors of choice (Naturopath) are not allowed to participate in the free money "buffet" from the insurance pool. 3) There are very few national plans. I move around a lot (spent last year in an RV) but had to use the emergency room only when out of my home state. In order for me to get a national plan, I would have to go back to a day job (then I wouldn't need one anyway).

My CPA knows how much I made (pre depreciation) and how much I had in asset appreciation and was shocked to find out I qualified for very low cost medical.

My guess is this - qualify based on current income only - will be the first part of the ACA to be chopped by the incoming administration.


Upstate NYer

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2016, 10:37:54 AM »
I had something similar happen here in NY. I applied through the marketplace, and my projected income for 2017 made me eligible for Medicaid. I went back in to my application and "over estimated" my income for 2017, making me eligible for the essential plan. Low cost, but not free.

Paul der Krake, the answer to that question, for me, is that I felt like I would have been taking advantage of the system.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 10:40:47 AM by Upstate NYer »

brooklynguy

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2016, 12:59:52 PM »
I went back in to my application and "over estimated" my income for 2017, making me eligible for the essential plan.

But misrepresenting your projected income doesn't actually make you eligible for the Essential Plan.  If you are in fact eligible for Medicaid, then you are not eligible for the Essential Plan, and if your income remains in Medicaid-eligible territory then you are likely to experience the type of unilateral shift into Medicaid that the OP complained about.

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2016, 01:07:06 PM »
I didn't see much difference between the Essential and Medicaid plans, same doctors in both from the plans I looked at.  No vision or dental with the Essentials.
The cost difference between the two for the state is not much.  The good thing is Essential is not subject to possible estate recovery for those 55+.

I think the stigma of saying Medicaid is just too much for some, but it is all in the head.

Upstate NYer

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2016, 01:32:35 PM »
Brooklynguy, not if I don't update to report my actual income mid-year in 2017.

Jim555, do you have links to the information you were looking at? Just curious, thanks.

brooklynguy

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2016, 02:10:44 PM »
Brooklynguy, not if I don't update to report my actual income mid-year in 2017.

So what do you plan to do, perpetually lie about your income in order to obtain subsidized coverage from a program for which you are ineligible instead of obtaining subsidized coverage from a program for which you are eligible?

Upstate NYer

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2016, 07:45:32 PM »
Brooklynguy, I felt bad qualifying for Medicaid, getting everything for free, when I'm not poor. Does that make sense to you?

With the essential plan, I shoulder more of the cost. Monthly premium, co-payments similar to what I'm paying now.

jim555

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2016, 08:55:41 PM »
The capitation rate difference between Essential 1 $491 and Essential 2 $568 is $77 a month.  Essential 2 should be almost the same as the MMC (Medicaid Managed Care) plans.  I can't find the MMC capitation right now.  My point is the difference is not that big so I don't see the objection as valid, it is all psychological based not reality based.

https://www.health.ny.gov/health_care/managed_care/essential/docs/guidance.pdf

brooklynguy

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2016, 09:23:46 PM »
Brooklynguy, I felt bad qualifying for Medicaid, getting everything for free, when I'm not poor. Does that make sense to you?

Putting aside the question of whether it makes sense to seek to obtain Essential Plan coverage in lieu of Medicaid coverage, as to which I expressed no view, the method you are using to accomplish that goal (namely, lying about your income) is of questionable propriety and, as a practical matter, probably not sustainable, which were the only points I was making.

I too plan to obtain Essential Plan coverage in retirement (assuming today's healthcare coverage landscape in NY remains unchanged, which appears doubtful), but the method I plan to use is to control my income to the point that I actually do qualify for the Essential Plan's eligibility criteria.

On the question of whether it makes sense to prefer Essential Plan coverage over Medicaid, Jim makes a good case that the answer might be no.

jim555

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2016, 09:32:26 PM »
Why would someone want to get a worse plan and pay more?  Makes no sense to me.

human

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2016, 09:49:06 PM »
This has to be tbe worst gobbledygook thread I've ever seen. Why the U.S. doesn't just switch to a universal system is something I will never understand.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 09:50:49 PM by human »

malacca

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2017, 11:02:40 AM »
This has to be tbe worst gobbledygook thread I've ever seen. Why the U.S. doesn't just switch to a universal system is something I will never understand.

You have to understand three things 1) The USA is a business. Everything revolves around a business. 2) The medical monopoly is the largest business in the USA at 20+% of GDP. 3) The USA is very good at business - especially monopolies. Congress is corrupt as hell and relies on money 'donations' from industries (the largest being medical of course).

Short of a revolution there is no way to take away all of the medical fat in the USA. It is up there with guns. That is why the ACA didn't touch the real problem - the medical costs. It reformed the highly corrupt insurance industry and added assistance to people who cannot afford the government mandated monopoly.

Unfortunately over time the USA developed employer provided medical (when it was cheap) and most people could get coverage through their employer. Many working class were in unions and received coverage. The cost of insurance was small in comparison to the wages. Now the cost of coverage is more than many workers make!

Having lived in other countries and used their medical systems I know how insane ours is. The Brits and Aussies I worked with that had worked in the USA couldn't believe how stupid - and wasteful - our system was.




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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2017, 12:03:22 PM »
This has to be tbe worst gobbledygook thread I've ever seen. Why the U.S. doesn't just switch to a universal system is something I will never understand.

The gobbledygook is the problem.

I know I am in the minority here... but I'd be in favor of a completely free market system. 
I know the majority here would like a mostly or completely socialist type system.

I believe either of these systems could work.  (You can argue points on which one is more fair/unfair and why, but that's a different topic.)

The problem in the US is that (IMO) we will NEVER completely embrace either system.  We have a history of trying to cobble together a mixed economy system.  And the problem with that is, inevitably, you end up with the worst of both systems.

I think even if we go "single payer" ... we'll do it in some completely bastardized way to appease lobby groups on both sides.  It's just our way of doing things. 

Laura Ingalls

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2017, 03:06:56 PM »
I totally argee Spork. I think we would be better with a true single payer system or a true market based system.  I think either way would provide people with the healthcare they need better than what we have now.

CanuckExpat

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2017, 12:26:39 AM »
And many healthcare economists would agree with you. All summarized nicely in one chart showing Total health expenditure as a proportion of GDP, 2009:


Summarized as: "It shows that we pay more than any other health-care system and, to add insult to injury, have ended up with more government than most of our competitors, too. It’s the worst of both worlds: a government-run health-care sector that is larger than the international norm, a private health-care sector that’s vastly larger than anything else out there and vast inefficiencies caused by the overlap and poor coordination between the two"

Sources:
http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/healthspendingcontinuestooutpaceeconomicgrowthinmostoecdcountries.htm
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/public-vs-private-health-spending-in-oecd-countries/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-most-important-graph-in-health-care-policy/2011/05/19/gHQAMZQRzH_blog.html?utm_term=.47296bf3dc54

I was going to add more commentary, but might be getting slightly tangential to original post :)

Upstate NYer

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2017, 03:50:33 PM »
brooklynguy, I plan to move some traditional IRA funds to Roth IRA funds each year. This will bring my income up to the level where I will qualify for the essential plan.

jim555, thanks for that information.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 04:04:15 PM by Upstate NYer »

brooklynguy

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Re: Post-FIRE health insurance: a cautionary tale of income-based eligibility
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2017, 03:57:35 PM »
brooklynguy, I plan to move some traditional IRA funds to Roth IRA funds each year. This will bring my income up to the level where I will qualify for the essential plan.

In that case, you aren't actually "overestimating" your income to begin with (because Roth conversions are income (more specifically, they count in the calculation of "modified adjusted gross income")) for purposes of determining eligibility for the Essential Plan.  So that resolves the issue.