Author Topic: Mustachian cities on the east coast?  (Read 5890 times)

evanc

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Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« on: May 28, 2022, 04:00:10 PM »
DW and I are considering relocating from HCOL PNW to the east coast, post-FIRE. New England appeals for the natural beauty and access to airports for intl travel. We particularly liked the vibe of Burlington, VT and Portland, ME but housing costs may be prohibitive for our budget. We also considered Ft. Wayne, IN in the Midwest, but hot summers are unappealing for us.

Here are our criteria. Your suggestions and feedback much appreciated!

1. Housing costs (single family, detached house - NOT condo) between $200-400k max
2. Walkability (if we could walk from the front door to the grocery store, local parks/trails, and at least a few restaurants, this would be ideal)
3. Access to organic grocers (e.g. Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, Sprouts) and restaurants serving plant-based fare
4. Low crime and unemployment
5. Access to airport (1-2 hours max drive or train would be preferable)
6. State taxes

Edited to add: we are partial to New England (as opposed to the SE), particularly VT, NH, ME, MA, NY and NJ
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 04:15:41 PM by evanc »

FLBiker

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2022, 04:51:12 PM »
It sounds like you're looking for a lot of what we were looking for -- we ended up in Nova Scotia, but Vermont, Maine and NH were all places we considered.  Keene, NH is nice, and I think it's a bit cheaper than Burlington.  We didn't look too deeply into properties, though.

evanc

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2022, 05:11:50 PM »
It sounds like you're looking for a lot of what we were looking for -- we ended up in Nova Scotia, but Vermont, Maine and NH were all places we considered.  Keene, NH is nice, and I think it's a bit cheaper than Burlington.  We didn't look too deeply into properties, though.

Thanks for the Keene recco, will look into that. If Canada were an option, we'd definitely consider, but alas we're both US Citizens.

evme

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2022, 07:25:27 PM »
Burlington, VT and Portland, ME seem like they would be too expensive unless you're willing to get a fixer upper. Maybe Ithaca, NY? The media home price according to Zillow is ~280k. It's about 2 hours from the Buffalo airport.

Btw, I believe I just read a post by @FLBiker that they are American citizens and were able to recently get permanent residence in Canada. So don't automatically disclude living in Canada as a potential option.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 11:34:42 PM by evme »

rosarugosa

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2022, 04:59:24 AM »
You might want to check out Pittsfield and North Adams, MA.

evanc

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2022, 10:57:36 AM »
@evme I'll look into that. Was under the impression it was virtually impossible.

@rosarugosa appreciate you. I'm on it.

feelingroovy

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2022, 03:15:52 PM »
Ithaca, NY and Saratoga Springs, NY would both fit your criteria. I suspect some small cities in the Hudson Valley would too, between NYC and Albany. I don't know those as well, but maybe look into Kingston or Poughkeepsie.

Be aware though that property taxes are off the charts in upstate NY. I believe NH also has high property taxes, but no income tax. NY has both. I think NJ has both too.

Amherst, MA might work for you. How big or small of a city are you open to? Montpelier, VT and some neighborhoods in Rochester,NY both fit. There are a lot of villages as well with a food coop (but not major chains) all over New England within 2 hours of an airport. They tend to have lower housing costs as well

FLBiker

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2022, 05:58:35 AM »
It sounds like you're looking for a lot of what we were looking for -- we ended up in Nova Scotia, but Vermont, Maine and NH were all places we considered.  Keene, NH is nice, and I think it's a bit cheaper than Burlington.  We didn't look too deeply into properties, though.

Thanks for the Keene recco, will look into that. If Canada were an option, we'd definitely consider, but alas we're both US Citizens.

We're both US citizens as well.  We applied for Canadian permanent residency through the Skilled Workers Express Entry program.  If you (or your partner) are under 40, and you have good work experience / degrees / English language skills, you could likely qualify.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/express-entry/eligibility/federal-skilled-workers.html

If you're interested in this, feel free to PM me.  It's somewhat complicated, time consuming and expensive (say ~$3000 for a family of three, between app fees, transcript evaluations, English tests, medical exams) but it is totally doable.  And we love Nova Scotia!

pdxvandal

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2022, 11:06:18 AM »
I've lived in New England a few different times (18 months total) and think you can find something there, as long as it's not close to the coast (where home prices are high). I think Burlington is awesome, but you'd have to compromise on your housing if you're only willing to spend up to $400k.

I like the Montpelier suggestion, but I'd also consider Concord, which is the state capital and not far from Manchester, which has a decent-sized airport with a lot of Southwest, American and United flights. Concord is the capital city and seems to have reasonable housing costs ... and it's not Manchester, which isn't a great place to live, IMO, with its higher crime and grime.

Portland, ME, also is awesome and you may be able to find a nearby suburb (Westbrook or Saco?) that's not as expensive as inner-city living.

I wish you luck finding organic grocery stores. In the PNW, I have probably 6-7 of them within a 5 mile drive of my house. While living in New England, it was maybe 2 in a 40-mile radius.

evanc

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2022, 02:34:11 PM »
Thank you, everyone! These are great suggestions.

@feelingroovy hadn't really considered population size as an important criteria, but for reference we've spent most of our time in cities around 100k population, give or take.

@pdxvandal I have noticed that for our budget, an older home may be our best option, yes. We're ok with that, so long as no fundamental issues. Thank you for suggesting some surrounding areas. And, yes, we are spoiled in some ways in the PNW :)

@FLBiker both north of 40, but will look at the details, TY!


FLBiker

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2022, 05:58:58 AM »
@FLBiker both north of 40, but will look at the details, TY!

OK, good luck!  40 isn't a hard line, but you start losing points based on age around 45 and it gets trickier.  If you have other bonuses, though (like French language ability, or Canadian family) it's certainly doable.  Plus, there are Provincial Nomination Programs that give bonuses to people based on their profession (whether or not you line up a job or intend to work).  My wife actually got one of these -- Nova Scotia was looking for college instructors.  Those bonuses are so big that they make all the rest of your score irrelevant.  So as long as you have work experience in a relevant field, you could qualify for one of those.  Each province does it differently, though, so it's a little confusing.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2022, 09:37:56 AM »
@FLBiker both north of 40, but will look at the details, TY!

OK, good luck!  40 isn't a hard line, but you start losing points based on age around 45 and it gets trickier.  If you have other bonuses, though (like French language ability, or Canadian family) it's certainly doable.  Plus, there are Provincial Nomination Programs that give bonuses to people based on their profession (whether or not you line up a job or intend to work).  My wife actually got one of these -- Nova Scotia was looking for college instructors.  Those bonuses are so big that they make all the rest of your score irrelevant.  So as long as you have work experience in a relevant field, you could qualify for one of those.  Each province does it differently, though, so it's a little confusing.

Mind telling me where she found her job? We are in academia and I'd like to look into this. But we are also over 40 (boo). With that said, we may also qualify in a different area (artists and craftspeople). We've thought about doing the art/craft self employment thing in NS under that program, but I'm not sure where to even start to look at it. If you feel so inclined to share that info it would be much appreciated.

FLBiker

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2022, 11:35:36 AM »
@FLBiker both north of 40, but will look at the details, TY!

OK, good luck!  40 isn't a hard line, but you start losing points based on age around 45 and it gets trickier.  If you have other bonuses, though (like French language ability, or Canadian family) it's certainly doable.  Plus, there are Provincial Nomination Programs that give bonuses to people based on their profession (whether or not you line up a job or intend to work).  My wife actually got one of these -- Nova Scotia was looking for college instructors.  Those bonuses are so big that they make all the rest of your score irrelevant.  So as long as you have work experience in a relevant field, you could qualify for one of those.  Each province does it differently, though, so it's a little confusing.

Mind telling me where she found her job? We are in academia and I'd like to look into this. But we are also over 40 (boo). With that said, we may also qualify in a different area (artists and craftspeople). We've thought about doing the art/craft self employment thing in NS under that program, but I'm not sure where to even start to look at it. If you feel so inclined to share that info it would be much appreciated.

Interesting -- I just checked the website (https://novascotiaimmigration.com/move-here/) and you're right that it does seem to be focused on people lining up jobs first.  That isn't how it worked when we did it.  My wife just had to provide evidence of 6+ years of experience in the field, along with the appropriate degree, in a profession that they had a need for (I think there were ~10 at the time).  Now, though, it looks like they also want you to have a job lined up.  She didn't find one beforehand.  I had a WFH job with a US employer who was willing to keep employing me in Canada via a PEO, and she found a job after we moved.  So, sorry, I don't really have any insight into finding a job in Nova Scotia before you move.  That said, there are certainly jobs up here.  My wife really made an effort to network once we arrived, and it really paid off.  She had several offers, and has a job she loves.

I'm also aware of a stream for artists and athletes, but I don't have any experience with that.  I know some folks that came up that way, but it was over a decade ago.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2022, 12:38:50 PM »
@FLBiker both north of 40, but will look at the details, TY!

OK, good luck!  40 isn't a hard line, but you start losing points based on age around 45 and it gets trickier.  If you have other bonuses, though (like French language ability, or Canadian family) it's certainly doable.  Plus, there are Provincial Nomination Programs that give bonuses to people based on their profession (whether or not you line up a job or intend to work).  My wife actually got one of these -- Nova Scotia was looking for college instructors.  Those bonuses are so big that they make all the rest of your score irrelevant.  So as long as you have work experience in a relevant field, you could qualify for one of those.  Each province does it differently, though, so it's a little confusing.

Mind telling me where she found her job? We are in academia and I'd like to look into this. But we are also over 40 (boo). With that said, we may also qualify in a different area (artists and craftspeople). We've thought about doing the art/craft self employment thing in NS under that program, but I'm not sure where to even start to look at it. If you feel so inclined to share that info it would be much appreciated.

Interesting -- I just checked the website (https://novascotiaimmigration.com/move-here/) and you're right that it does seem to be focused on people lining up jobs first.  That isn't how it worked when we did it.  My wife just had to provide evidence of 6+ years of experience in the field, along with the appropriate degree, in a profession that they had a need for (I think there were ~10 at the time).  Now, though, it looks like they also want you to have a job lined up.  She didn't find one beforehand.  I had a WFH job with a US employer who was willing to keep employing me in Canada via a PEO, and she found a job after we moved.  So, sorry, I don't really have any insight into finding a job in Nova Scotia before you move.  That said, there are certainly jobs up here.  My wife really made an effort to network once we arrived, and it really paid off.  She had several offers, and has a job she loves.

I'm also aware of a stream for artists and athletes, but I don't have any experience with that.  I know some folks that came up that way, but it was over a decade ago.

Interesting, thank you for this information. I'm going to look into it more. We are a big fan of Halifax and could see ourselves living there.

Rdy2Fire

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2022, 06:38:34 AM »
You mention international travel, to me that says you really want/need to be within an hour or two of Boston or NYC.

I say that because typically leaving the US/East Coast you would have to fly into one of those cities to get your flights across the pond. If not NYC or Boston, Atlanta, DC, or Charlotte; given that as an interest, I would look at somewhere near Stewart International Airport possibly. SWF airport has taken on more and more international (Europe) direct flights in the last few years from low cost carriers (Norwegian, Wow, Iceland, etc). Some of those airlines stopped during COVID but I imagine they will pick up again. They also had Frontier and a few others. My point is, that area around 3hrs drive to Boston and 2hrs drive from JFK. It's also about 2hrs from Hartford and 90 mins from Albany. It's not as north as the other areas but you could live in NY, NJ, CT or MA as all are less than an hour.

However, if you want to be further north then I like some of the previous VT suggestions and personally would also look at Portland ME or even Freeport which are nice, have an airport (Portland) and less then 2hrs to Boston

2sk22

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2022, 07:00:17 AM »
You mention international travel, to me that says you really want/need to be within an hour or two of Boston or NYC.


You are ight - you need to be somewhat close to NY or Boston for easy access to international travel. This is one of the reasons why we don't plane to leave NJ even after my wife retires. I would suggest places in eastern Pennsylvania like the Lehigh Valley - Allentown for example. There are affordable places in Pennsylvania within a couple hours drive of Newark airport.

FireLane

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2022, 09:22:35 AM »
Western Massachusetts might be a good place to look, in the vicinity of Northampton, Amherst or Springfield. If I ever leave New York, it's on the top of my list of places to move.

It's an affordable area with natural beauty, lots of outdoor recreation, farm-to-table restaurants, and a college-town vibe (since it's in the Five Colleges area). Between Boston and New York, it's fairly close to major airports.

RainyDay

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2022, 10:02:04 AM »
You mention international travel, to me that says you really want/need to be within an hour or two of Boston or NYC.


You are ight - you need to be somewhat close to NY or Boston for easy access to international travel. This is one of the reasons why we don't plane to leave NJ even after my wife retires. I would suggest places in eastern Pennsylvania like the Lehigh Valley - Allentown for example. There are affordable places in Pennsylvania within a couple hours drive of Newark airport.

I was going to suggest northeastern Pennsylvania as well.  Between Alllentown and Scranton is likely to be much more affordable and somewhat close to NYC airports.  Might not be far enough north, though, and I don't know about the restaurant or grocery store scene.  Also might be too far to the right in general, if you're coming from the PNW.

Steeze

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2022, 03:43:36 PM »
Berkshire county - Great Barrington, Stockbridge, Lenox and Williamstown are nice walkable places with decent amenities.

Lee, West Stockbridge, Housatonic, Richmond, Sheffield, Adams are decent, but not the main attraction.

Pittsfield and North Adams are decently walkable - but due to crime / unemployment/ poverty it might not be your cup of tea. I personally would not live there.

The surrounding hill towns are all beautiful and affordable but you would be driving to do anything.

I’ll 2nd the Amherst, Hadley, Northhampton suggestion - great college towns if you are into that. The rest of the Springfield area is not that interesting to me.

Reddleman

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2022, 07:02:44 PM »
Ithaca is a possibility, but like everywhere else prices are rising.  Downtown is getting the same gentrification experience of just about everywhere else, and taxes are based on property values, so we sold and moved out almost a decade ago.  We live in a small town just outside of it.  I can walk to a bank, library, and convenience store, but that's about it.  Oh, and an actual honest-to-goodness covered bridge- but that wasn't on your list! 

Lived in Rochester, too.  Some really nice neighborhoods that would fit the bill. Along with Buffalo, they really have more of a "Great Lakes" feel to them.  I think it's really kind of a hidden gem. Gotta like snow, though.

If you have to make compromises, I'd put proximity to a good international airport pretty far down the list.  I travel quite a bit and paying a few hundred per trip for the connecting flight to NYC is way cheaper and less hassle than trying to find a place that's a bit more "airport convenient" for the few times a year you may travel.  When you're FIRE, you'll save far more money just on flexibility alone.   

FLBiker

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2022, 07:01:32 AM »
Another note on airports -- some smaller airports have options that are really good.  For example, there's a direct flight from Halifax to Frankfurt on Condor airlines that can be had for less than $600 USD if you pick the right dates.  I know lots of folks locally who do that, and then travel around Europe by train for a couple of weeks.

freeat57

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2022, 01:40:51 PM »
OK, I know you're looking north, but have you considered Asheville, NC?  Mountain climate, less hot summer weather than lower elevations, not super southern in culture, lots of arts/artists, organic, vegan,etc. Can be in your price range.

AlanStache

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2022, 03:04:30 PM »
Posting mostly to follow.  Cant really recommend my area, Norfolk is ok-has good parts.  Summers are hot. 

Car Jack

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM »
Westfield, MA

It has a real downtown.  Average home prices $325k.  Well run city that owns its own sewage treatment plant, water supply, electric supply company, gas supply company (municipal departments).  It's the last city before the start of the Berkshires.  Bradley field is the international airport and about 40 minutes away.  There's a Whole Foods behind Applebees on East Main St.  I'm seeing Trader Joes also on Union St.  A number of lakes surround the city and there's a dirt race track if you're into that.  There is an airport but it's mostly private planes and air national guard.  Population about 40k.  It's the second biggest land area city in Mass at 44 sq miles.

I grew up there.

salt cured

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2022, 08:40:46 PM »
Ithaca is a great city, but a walkable, detached SF home would put OP downtown where prices are at the top of their budget, where taxes would be about $12k annually (for a $400k home), and where they'd very likely be in a flood zone come Jan 1 when the new FEMA maps kick in, adding another mandatory $3k to $5k in insurance costs. It's pretty expensive to live here.

Reddleman

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2022, 12:08:22 PM »
Ithaca is a great city, but a walkable, detached SF home would put OP downtown where prices are at the top of their budget, where taxes would be about $12k annually (for a $400k home), and where they'd very likely be in a flood zone come Jan 1 when the new FEMA maps kick in, adding another mandatory $3k to $5k in insurance costs. It's pretty expensive to live here.

Agree 100%. It was reasonably priced when we bought a two-family about 20 years ago downtown.  It's honestly gotten a little silly recently.  The increasing tax assessments, flooding possibility, and general realization that I'm not really a "city" guy/taking advantage of most of the benefits of living there made it an easy decision to move outside of town. 

Oddly, I didn't think of the FEMA maps but you're probably right about that as well.

dabighen

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2022, 02:32:12 PM »
Concord NH meets your criteria.  I live there now.  Great City, we are never moving.

WFUDEAC

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2022, 05:31:56 PM »

Pittsburgh, PA would meet most of your criteria.


mustachian816

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Re: Mustachian cities on the east coast?
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2022, 11:46:35 AM »
Seconded for Asheville, NC.

It looks to check all of the boxes that you were looking for:
It's only 4 degrees warmer than Burlington in July, and the winters aren't so harsh. There are also mountain towns nearby that are even cooler in the summer.
COL is 10-20% cheaper than Burlington & Portland.
It has its own regional airport plus Charlotte is two hours away and is a major hub for American Airlines with direct flights to Europe and several Caribbean islands.
It has Trader Joe's and Whole foods plus several other organic grocery stores.
The combined income and property taxes are better than most of the northeast.
Lots of trip options within driving distance in the Appalachian mountains plus the Carolina coasts.
It's very left-leaning and has a similar vibe to the PNW or Mountain West ski town and has a completely different feel than most of the rest southeast.

If you're set on the Northeast though, I'd look at somewhere ~2 hours of Boston to meet your close-to airport requirement rather than living near a regional airport and having to connect to fly overseas.  Amherst in western MA might meet your criteria which is home to UMASS.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 08:19:27 PM by mustachian816 »