Author Topic: More Money Equals More Happiness?  (Read 14312 times)

totoro

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More Money Equals More Happiness?
« on: December 11, 2022, 12:11:12 PM »
You've probably all read about the 2010 study in the US that found that happiness doesn't increase much after you make 75k plus per year.

Well, there is this new study that shows that life satisfaction does not plateau at 75k and does continue to increase in line with income (or presumably net worth) https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2016976118

"There was also no income threshold at which experienced and evaluative well-being diverged; instead, higher incomes were associated with both feeling better moment-to-moment and being more satisfied with life overall."

One theory is that people can buy their way out of some kinds of suffering. I'd be interested in your ideas!

totoro

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2022, 02:57:44 PM »
I can't find the other post either.

This is not an opinion article that states the higher income will lead to greater happiness, it is a study of employed adults that found that more income is linearly correlated with greater happiness. 

Drawing on 1,725,994 experience-sampling reports from 33,391 employed US adults, the present results show that both experienced and evaluative well-being increased linearly with log(income), with an equally steep slope for higher earners as for lower earners. There was no evidence for an experienced well-being plateau above $75,000/y, contrary to some influential past research. There was also no evidence of an income threshold at which experienced and evaluative well-being diverged, suggesting that higher incomes are associated with both feeling better day-to-day and being more satisfied with life overall.

It doesn't study those that are already FI specifically though.  Might be a very high level of happiness for FI for the reasons of time freedom and safety net.

Morning Glory

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2022, 03:28:44 PM »
It might have more to do with working conditions than the income itself. Higher wages are usually correlated with greater autonomy and variety in working life as well as higher education level, where as low wage workers are more likely to encounter erratic scheduling,  verbal abuse,  and a host of other factors that make work shitty.

 A person in one of those high wage jobs most likely had a more stable childhood,  lesser likelihood of major mental health issues, possibly greater social connections,  and a host of other factors that enabled them to be there, that your average low wage worker does not have. For example a person who dropped out of college due to severe depression would likely earn a much lower wage than someone who had good enough mental health to finish college, and would also be likely to still have depression at the time of the survey regardless of income.

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2022, 03:58:04 PM »
It might have more to do with working conditions than the income itself. Higher wages are usually correlated with greater autonomy and variety in working life as well as higher education level, where as low wage workers are more likely to encounter erratic scheduling,  verbal abuse,  and a host of other factors that make work shitty.

 A person in one of those high wage jobs most likely had a more stable childhood,  lesser likelihood of major mental health issues, possibly greater social connections,  and a host of other factors that enabled them to be there, that your average low wage worker does not have. For example a person who dropped out of college due to severe depression would likely earn a much lower wage than someone who had good enough mental health to finish college, and would also be likely to still have depression at the time of the survey regardless of income.

As someone born from a family with mental health issues, abused as a child, who grew up in the ghettos in foster care, was homeless for a while, pulled myself up by working hard while going to college and fixing up foreclosed houses, and am now a millionaire surrounded by a completely different social group, if I could like this post 1,000 times I would.

There is a huge difference between socioeconomic groups of people that both lower income and higher income people seem completely unaware of. From working conditions, to educational attainment, relationships, drug use, mental health, ability to handle stress, social expectations, abuse, neglect.

It's not just about the money. It's about where you live, who your parents are, what trauma you experienced in childhood, who your friends are, who you marry, what genetic predispositions you have, what life stressors you have had, etc.

Someone with higher income likely suffers less from a wide variety of ailments that could cause pain, suffering, and unhappiness in life.

Sometimes I make this speech and some rich person who has never experienced an ounce of suffering in their life likes to chime in and tell me that everyone suffers equally and...this just isn't true. Some people are so far away from the day to day reality that people in the ghetto experience that the GPS systems in their Lincoln Navigators probably have an option to automatically route them around high crime areas so they don't have to see the dilapidated housing and homeless crack addicts on the way to their board meeting.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 04:26:46 PM by curious_george »

2sk22

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2022, 04:57:02 PM »
There was a recent thread around here about the same article but I couldn't find it (someone else may find it).

 I think that most wondered if they were talking about income amount or spending amount increasing happiness. Or is this more a function of security overall due to having a higher income and the ability to have things like safe housing, better education opportunities, a safer newer vehicle, good medical care, etc and perhaps a higher NW if saving a large amount of that income rather then spending it all on shiny things. IIRC I believe most here strongly disagreed with the article that a higher income will lead to greater happiness in and of itself.

I started a thread back in 2019 on this very topic - ie academic studies on the relationship between money and happiness

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/money-and-happiness/



bacchi

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2022, 09:17:04 PM »
It might have more to do with working conditions than the income itself. Higher wages are usually correlated with greater autonomy and variety in working life as well as higher education level, where as low wage workers are more likely to encounter erratic scheduling,  verbal abuse,  and a host of other factors that make work shitty.

Given the publication date (1/2021), I wonder how much of the data was collected during covid 2020?

---


Quote from: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2016976118
There was also evidence that the strength of the association between income and experienced well-being was systematically larger for some people and smaller for others.
<snip>
Whether people who rate money as relatively unimportant simply do not care about money, have found that “the best things in life are free,” or have tried and failed to spend money to improve their lives is unclear, but this result shows that there is something systematic causing income to matter more for some people’s well-being than for others.


This does suggest another possible conclusion:

Buying more shit to fill the otherwise empty void in their lives makes most people happier in a consumerist society.*




* News at 11

Cassie

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2022, 09:22:24 PM »
Money gives people choices. Also if you are constantly worrying about having enough money to pay bills that are necessary such as food and rent it’s exhausting.

bacchi

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2022, 09:30:03 PM »
Money gives people choices. Also if you are constantly worrying about having enough money to pay bills that are necessary such as food and rent it’s exhausting.

Right but most of the prior research indicates that, once the bills are paid, mo' money doesn't increase happiness much. That level (pre-inflation) was around $75k. Obviously this varies based on COL and personal circumstances (like supporting a sick relative, etc.)

Cassie

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2022, 09:47:12 PM »
It really depends on what happens to you especially in your senior years. A good friend of mine was very frugal and saved hard for retirement.  Unfortunately he developed Parkinson’s and needed to move to an apartment in an assisted living facility. Luckily he could afford the 7k/month and his remaining time was lived in a nice place. It sounds like a lot of money but it’s the going rate locally. I wouldn’t be able to afford that and would have a crappy quality of life if that happens to me. Lots of money gives you choices.

flyingaway

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2022, 06:08:31 PM »
More money brings more options. I would like to have more money than have no money.
If you use your money wisely, it should bring a lot of happiness.
But, if I have to make those money, OK, that is miserable.

vand

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2022, 02:06:19 AM »
I reckon it's much more about the direction and speed of your income than it is about any absolute level.   Someone who progresses their way from $30k to $60k over 5 year career will be much happier about things than someone who's just gone from $60k to $70k in the same time. 

Maybe this is why there is a U shape in happiness/satisfaction levels throughout one's career - at the outset when you are young you can expect to increase your earnings faster, but then after you've been in the workforce for a while the increases level off to just inflation and a bit (for most people), and then towards the end as you kids leave the nest and you pay down the mortgage your disposable income can take a big increase.

FIRE 20/20

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2022, 05:06:42 PM »
A couple of thoughts:

Remember that they didn't actually show that more money equals more happiness, but more income.  There's a big difference there.  Second, they saw a roughly linear increase with the log of income, not income.  If you look at income (as opposed to log income) vs. happiness the curve does flatten out quite a bit (without actually becoming flat) after about $80k.  Third, the differences in both life satisfaction (a little below 0.4) and experienced well-being (a little above 0.2) are measured in z-score, which is how far above or below the mean is in units of standard deviation.  0.2 and 0.4 are not nothing, but you'll typically see a lot of overlap in distributions that vary by 0.2 or 0.4 stddev.  Taking these things together, what I see from this study is that significant increases in income (8x greater income) is correlated with a relatively small but noticeable (0.2 standard deviation) shift in the distribution of experienced well-being as measured in the moment and a larger but still not huge shift in the distribution (0.4 standard deviations) for life satisfaction.  So it's something, but the jumps in income are so large relative to the increase in relative happiness that it's not something I would focus on as a particularly effective area of focus for increasing an individual person's happiness once they have a reasonable amount. 

However, I think there are a couple of things that are more important to take away from the larger set of happiness research.  First, I think it's reasonably well established (although I'm just a layperson, not an expert!) that roughly 50% of our happiness comes from a "happiness set point".  What that means is that we all have some level of baseline happiness that we tend to return to over time after something that changes it.  So if you're someone who is very happy by nature (say a 9/10) and you suffer a horrible accident that paralyzes you, you'll immediately drop well below 9 but over time your happiness is likely to creep back up towards your set point.  Massive impacts tend to keep people from returning exactly to their set point, so that 9/10 person may only get back to a 7 or 8 if they remain paralyzed.  Similar things happen on the other end - if your set point is a 3/10 and you win the lottery, you may jump up temporarily but you'll probably end up at a 4 after the initial glow wears off.  It also means that half of our happiness "score" can be impacted by our actions and our life situation.  The question is what things can we do to increase the 50% we have some level of control over? 
Second, these are averages.  FIREd people are not generally well enough represented in these studies to impact them.  For me personally, I am much, much, happier now that I'm FIREd even though my "income" dropped substantially.  My taxable income is now about 1/6 of what it was before I FIREd, yet my moment to moment and overall happiness are definitely higher than when I had 6x the income I do now.  Even if you look at spending, I definitely spend less now than when I was working yet I'm happier now.  I would be interested in seeing a study of changes in happiness for people who FIRE, but we're too small a community for any researcher to notice us.  Although if there's a psychology grad student reading this maybe that's a possible area for research!
Finally, while I do think that the study is correct that increased income is likely to result in increased happiness, there are other things that have better evidence to support increased happiness.  One easy one is gratitude.  Simply by making an effort to think about what we're grateful for has been repeatedly shown to increase happiness and it only takes a few minutes each day.  That's a whole lot easier than doubling or quadrupling our income to shift up a tenth or two of a standard deviation. 

clarkfan1979

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2022, 06:00:09 AM »
A couple of thoughts:

Remember that they didn't actually show that more money equals more happiness, but more income.  There's a big difference there.  Second, they saw a roughly linear increase with the log of income, not income.  If you look at income (as opposed to log income) vs. happiness the curve does flatten out quite a bit (without actually becoming flat) after about $80k.  Third, the differences in both life satisfaction (a little below 0.4) and experienced well-being (a little above 0.2) are measured in z-score, which is how far above or below the mean is in units of standard deviation.  0.2 and 0.4 are not nothing, but you'll typically see a lot of overlap in distributions that vary by 0.2 or 0.4 stddev.  Taking these things together, what I see from this study is that significant increases in income (8x greater income) is correlated with a relatively small but noticeable (0.2 standard deviation) shift in the distribution of experienced well-being as measured in the moment and a larger but still not huge shift in the distribution (0.4 standard deviations) for life satisfaction.  So it's something, but the jumps in income are so large relative to the increase in relative happiness that it's not something I would focus on as a particularly effective area of focus for increasing an individual person's happiness once they have a reasonable amount. 

However, I think there are a couple of things that are more important to take away from the larger set of happiness research.  First, I think it's reasonably well established (although I'm just a layperson, not an expert!) that roughly 50% of our happiness comes from a "happiness set point".  What that means is that we all have some level of baseline happiness that we tend to return to over time after something that changes it.  So if you're someone who is very happy by nature (say a 9/10) and you suffer a horrible accident that paralyzes you, you'll immediately drop well below 9 but over time your happiness is likely to creep back up towards your set point.  Massive impacts tend to keep people from returning exactly to their set point, so that 9/10 person may only get back to a 7 or 8 if they remain paralyzed.  Similar things happen on the other end - if your set point is a 3/10 and you win the lottery, you may jump up temporarily but you'll probably end up at a 4 after the initial glow wears off.  It also means that half of our happiness "score" can be impacted by our actions and our life situation.  The question is what things can we do to increase the 50% we have some level of control over? 
Second, these are averages.  FIREd people are not generally well enough represented in these studies to impact them.  For me personally, I am much, much, happier now that I'm FIREd even though my "income" dropped substantially.  My taxable income is now about 1/6 of what it was before I FIREd, yet my moment to moment and overall happiness are definitely higher than when I had 6x the income I do now.  Even if you look at spending, I definitely spend less now than when I was working yet I'm happier now.  I would be interested in seeing a study of changes in happiness for people who FIRE, but we're too small a community for any researcher to notice us.  Although if there's a psychology grad student reading this maybe that's a possible area for research!
Finally, while I do think that the study is correct that increased income is likely to result in increased happiness, there are other things that have better evidence to support increased happiness.  One easy one is gratitude.  Simply by making an effort to think about what we're grateful for has been repeatedly shown to increase happiness and it only takes a few minutes each day.  That's a whole lot easier than doubling or quadrupling our income to shift up a tenth or two of a standard deviation.

The overall main result is that experienced well-being is significantly correlated with income at (r=.09). In the social sciences r=.10 is considered small, .30 is considered moderate and .50 is considered large. This relationship of r=.09 does not even meet the threshold for "small". As a result, it would be reasonable to conclude "no relationship" at r=.09.

The reason the relationship is "significant" is because there are 41,000 participants. Significance testing is biased toward sample size.

I personally would not draw any conclusions from a study with a relationship between two variables at r=.09.

Any other social scientists want to chime in on my analysis?

 

chevy1956

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2022, 06:48:49 PM »
I personally would not draw any conclusions from a study with a relationship between two variables at r=.09.

Thanks for that info. I didn't know this. It's good to know.

mustache_asker

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2023, 11:47:51 AM »
I am researching happiness scientific studies since the start of this year for 1.5h per workday as a new year resolution.

Yes so correlation is quite small.
Also, correlation is not effect size.
For example, a study from ifo institute in Germany found that the difference of having 30k€ and 60k€ (doubling income) on the happiness scale from 0-10 is 0.13 points. So you increase 1% on the happiness scale by doubling your income.
It's basically nothing.
But: If you don't have anything, like in a developing country scenario, there is significant and strong relationship between income and happiness.

Now that study was non-temporal. If we look at happiness across time in developed nations, the average well being does not change, but average income per person increases.
So looking at the relationship of income with well being across time, the relationship seems to fall down from 9% correlation to maybe no correlation.
Why both studies give different results? Probably according to what I have read in the literature, people adjust to higher income (hedonistic treadmill) and people seem to be a bit happier if they are higher up in relation to the rest of society (more social prestige, etc.).

So at face value, more income will not really beneft you. BUT the good news: Freedom does! https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10902-017-9898-2
r=0.46 !!! This is an like insanely good relationship for something as illusive as subjective well being and all the factors that have a role to play in explaining well being.
So if you acquire wealth and that makes you free THEN yes wealth (money) can make you happier!

Now to give you one more thing: There can be something as "too much" freedom. It can come at the expense of other important factors.
For example if you are financially free, and then you just disregard all relationships and go on a world tour alone, you might feel lonely and lose social support or lose a sense of accomplishment that work gave you. So if freedom is so exzessive, that relationships or sense of meaning suffers, or that your media consumption goes through the roof, damaging your health, it can be too much.
But this is just at the really extrem end of the scale, and a rare occasion as r=0.46 tells us, in general there is a really great effect on happiness when it comes to FREEDOM.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 11:53:28 AM by mustache_asker »

Unionville

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2023, 05:31:58 PM »
Once I had money I'd say 90% of my life problems went away. To me, having money is not about buying things, it's about having choices. Here are some new choices I never used to have:

Before: I had chronic dental pain
After:  I don't have chronic dental pain.

Before: Always cold.
After:  I can turn on the heater and be warm.

Before: I lived in apartments and had to move because of other people (someone buys the the building, person moves next door is out of control, landlord raises rent)
After:  I can live in a paid-for house, and move when or if I want

Before: I had to put on (mental) armor to ride on unsafe public transit.
After:  I can now take uber.

Before: I bought things because they were on sale.
After:  I don't look at sales, and buy things when I need them.

Before: I looked at prices on a menu before deciding what I could eat.
After:  I looked at what I want to eat.

Before: I kept things.
After: I give things away.



« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 05:35:41 PM by Brook »

mustache_asker

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2023, 01:45:41 AM »
hi,

yes it is true that money at the beginning of the income curve, when it is about basic necessities like not being cold, being healthy, being safe, etc. that at the beginning money totally increases happiness. Then after these basic needs are met, the correlation gets way weaker and basically diminishes from what I have learned. disclaimer: I'm from Germany, things are a bit different here. for example, everyone get's housing, health insurance etc. no matter what.

Missy B

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2023, 11:52:40 PM »
What RouteOne said.

The 75K thing always made sense to me because that's the point at which most things that really make a difference can be afforded. Also just because you can afford more expensive things, doesn't make those things so much more satisfying.
No amount of money can buy good relationships, and that's what makes people happy.
That takes a different kind of investment, one that I think is not valued or cultivated in a lot of places. More so now. The increase in depression and anxiety, but in kids especially, is a product of the false placeholder of social media for real connection. And not just social media, because even before it became huge there was a trend to more islanding, and multiple factors contributed to that: long commutes, a climate of increased suspicion and fear.

A friend of mine that I hadn't seen for a while came to tell me last month that his wife had died.
He's well off now, but when we became friends they were in a really tight place. He'd had to declare bankruptcy after a business partner f**d him over. He and his wife worked hard. Got on their feet, and he got the job he has now.
His wife died of alcoholism. Being well off didn't kill her, but she didn't need to work for the last several years of her life and deteriorated rapidly without something she *had* to do. She succumbed to her illness instead of finding a new path.
He told me that, ironically the best time of their life was when they were young and poor.

I'm glad to say he's well. 4 kids, plus an unofficially adopted bonus kid, and lots of people in his life that care for him.

mustache_asker

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2023, 10:17:33 AM »
Sorry to hear your friends's wife died, but I am greatful for charing your study as it reminds me once again what also the literature says:
there is an inverted U relationship with employment hours. (no employment = bad and too much employment = bad also). Somewhere in the middle is optimal. So this helps me with planing for the future.

About the correlation with 75k: The devil is in the details.
So the overall correlation of well being and income is like 17% or so. We need to be aware that this means 83% of the variance of well being is explained by other factors.
This correlation decreases as income increases. And beyond 75k it seems to fade to zero. So there's diminishing returns.

jim555

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2023, 12:17:58 PM »
Having money is like life on easy mode.  I grew up in a poor house so I am uber frugal by nature, now that I have some money it is like a huge weight of worry taken off my head.  Still frugal, but not because I have to be.

mustache_asker

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2023, 02:07:46 PM »
Sorry to hear your friends's wife died, but I am greatful for charing your study as it reminds me once again what also the literature says:
there is an inverted U relationship with employment hours. (no employment = bad and too much employment = bad also). Somewhere in the middle is optimal. So this helps me with planing for the future.

About the correlation with 75k: The devil is in the details.
So the overall correlation of well being and income is like 17% or so. We need to be aware that this means 83% of the variance of well being is explained by other factors.
This correlation decreases as income increases. And beyond 75k it seems to fade to zero. So there's diminishing returns.
I disagree with the bolded. There are many many interesting, challenging, inspiring, and fulfilling activities that don't require paid employment. Often times being employed, even minimally, can cut into those activities and interests.

What I mean is it's in this study (you can click on pdf to see it): https://www.scinapse.io/papers/1978050391
But yes maybe it's not a inverse U shape for U. Maybe it's different if you have lots of $$$ :). In average it seems to be inverse U.

Exflyboy

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2023, 10:52:38 AM »
I have two philosophical mantras that I've held most of my life.

1) a: Money doesn't buy you happiness.. b: No, but it sure gives you the option of not being miserable.

2) Money provides just one thing.. The freedom to not worry about money!

1a.. Came from my Mother who sincerely believed in the "live for today/spend everything" method, 1b was my response!

Of course having the freedom to not worry about money is not the same as actually not worrying about it.. I can attest to this even with my 0.69% WR... Actually last year it was significantly negative cus I wet back to work..:)

2sk22

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2023, 04:01:23 AM »
2) Money provides just one thing.. The freedom to not worry about money!

I agree with this completely but I have to mention this theory that have. I call it the "law of conservation of worry": if something ceases to be a worry, something else will take its place :-)

StarBright

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2023, 05:49:45 AM »
I feel like I've been hearing the 75k number for a LONG time - like the entire time I've been an adult, which has been a while now.

Adjusted for actual cost of living-type inflation (housing, food, medical, education, childcare), I have to imagine the 75k number wouldn't come close to cutting it anymore.

JupiterGreen

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2023, 06:11:30 AM »
2) Money provides just one thing.. The freedom to not worry about money!

I agree with this completely but I have to mention this theory that have. I call it the "law of conservation of worry": if something ceases to be a worry, something else will take its place :-)
haha, this is (unfortunately) true

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2023, 09:13:50 AM »
I feel like I've been hearing the 75k number for a LONG time - like the entire time I've been an adult, which has been a while now.

Adjusted for actual cost of living-type inflation (housing, food, medical, education, childcare), I have to imagine the 75k number wouldn't come close to cutting it anymore.
$75k was from a 2010 Princeton study, so presumably it would have inflated by now. Apparently a study that was new-ish in 2018 found individuals at $95k had highest life satisfaction & $60-75k had highest emotional wellbeing. Important distinction.

But the general population regards a dollar earned as at least $0.90 spent ($0.925 in 2018), so it's worth remembering the "income" numbers cited are actually a proxy for spending.

The average American is also servicing $5.5k in credit card debt, bought 68 garments a year in 2018 (that number is rising rapidly with online fast fashion), believes their car & electronics need to be rotated long before end of life to keep up with the latest model. So how applicable is their satisfaction with their spending patterns to your life?

I'd have to hire staff to spend that much, a personal chef, trainer, housekeeping, maintenance. But I doubt the people experiencing "highest life satisfaction" spending around $87.9k (92.5% of 95k) think they can afford all of those - more likely they're making a lot of sub-optimal purchasing decisions which chew up that cash - which tells me an army of personal staff is not necessary for optimum life satisfaction either & that these numbers are leagues above what I'd need for optimum happiness.

Kris

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2023, 12:05:08 PM »
Sorry to hear your friends's wife died, but I am greatful for charing your study as it reminds me once again what also the literature says:
there is an inverted U relationship with employment hours. (no employment = bad and too much employment = bad also). Somewhere in the middle is optimal. So this helps me with planing for the future.

About the correlation with 75k: The devil is in the details.
So the overall correlation of well being and income is like 17% or so. We need to be aware that this means 83% of the variance of well being is explained by other factors.
This correlation decreases as income increases. And beyond 75k it seems to fade to zero. So there's diminishing returns.
I disagree with the bolded. There are many many interesting, challenging, inspiring, and fulfilling activities that don't require paid employment. Often times being employed, even minimally, can cut into those activities and interests.

Agreed. I think it really depends on the individual, as well. Some people seem unable to motivate themselves to devote any energy to an occupation unless there is monetary gain attached to it. For those people, no employment = bad (though I'd also say that maybe therapy is what they need, not gainful employment).

My husband retired a few years ago. He doesn't do all that much, to be honest. He does sudokus, cooks, reads the paper cover to cover every day... Gets out for walks if I go with him. Now, I personally think he should be doing more (at least on the exercise front) but the fact is, he is perfectly happy to spend his days in this way.

I need more routine than he does, but that doesn't mean I need to make it about earning income. I am "working" as a "full-time" novelist, making a full-time salary. But in effect, what that means is that I work M-F about 3 hours a day writing a little bit and managing my marketing. The rest of the time, I do hobbies: reading, going to kickboxing classes, learning guitar, learning Italian. The job, honestly, is useful for me because it serves as an anchor of something I "have" to do (which I honestly could quit and still be financially okay). Without it, I might not value the time I have for my hobbies as much, and my daily routine would be more fluid.

The point is, self-awareness is the key. I am aware of how I am. I'm aware of the social forces that teach us about how we define self-worth, and I am able to see where those forces are ridiculous and reject them. *That* is how I'm able to be happy.

Log

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2023, 12:48:32 PM »
Another way to look at this is our "experiencing self" vs our "remembering self." I'm pretty sure if I first read about this in Thinking Fast and Slow, fwiw.

So at (the inflation-adjusted equivalent of) $75k your day-to-day experience of life is about as happy as you can make it. It's enough money for someone of average financial wherewithal to remove the major friction points that make life suck at lower incomes.

Above $75k, the fancy-pants stuff you can buy doesn't really make your day-to-day experience any happier, but it's satisfying to recall the promotions and raises that got you there, and the cool experiences you've been able to buy with that extra money.

So it comes down to whether you're defining "happiness" as day-to-day emotional affect/pleasure, or as a broader sense of pride and satisfaction in what you've been able to do with your life.

Exflyboy

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2023, 12:49:23 PM »
Personally I think if I had roughly double what I do now I'd be happier..:)

Actually there is "some" truth to the above statement. I have gone through the following phases during my life.

1) If I don't make use of this free education I could be working in the fish Market in London and die on the job in my early 50's.

2) If I lose my job I will starve... (not quite true, but it felt like it).

3) I AM going to lose my job!.. Now I will lose my house

4) Things are going OK and I am living paycheck to paycheck.

5) I have a pretty good income, can afford a nice house/car but it will all go away if I lose my job

6) I have some savings to tide me over some months of unemployment and I'm on my way to paying off the house... (This took 6yrs, 3 months)

7) Damn! I have a paid off house and $1M in savings/investments (Sept 2013)

8) Retired.. SHOULD be OK... worried.

9 Have 2X money I retired with.. Really should be OK.. Still worried but at least spent some $$ on taking cool international trips (on points/economy class) . Thailand/China Philippines (twice)/UK/Croatia/Slovenia/Ukraine/Ireland.

10 Have 3X retired money plus small deferred pensions and rental income... Do I worry about money just a little and still look at the prices on the menu?.. Yup sure do. Going back to the UK for a visit.. Economy class. Bought a new SUV and spent more on machine tools than I did on my first house!

I am HERE... (market meltdown last year not withstanding)

11) Have 6X what I retired with and money is completely irrelevant and I'll be damned if I ever sit in an economy class seat travelling internationally ever again and I don't care what the menu prices are.


Now of course I may well be at 'stage 11' with the money we have right now.... But my history of childhood poverty makes it hard for me to believe.

The saddest thing to me is the thought of the pensioner living in poverty while she/he has millions of dollars in the bank... But I could easily see myself heading that way. Maybe when I'm 65 and ACA subsidies are only important to DW we'll start living higher off the hog.

This sounds a lot sadder/serious than I intended!


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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2023, 05:22:07 PM »
I feel like I've been hearing the 75k number for a LONG time - like the entire time I've been an adult, which has been a while now.

Adjusted for actual cost of living-type inflation (housing, food, medical, education, childcare), I have to imagine the 75k number wouldn't come close to cutting it anymore.
$75k was from a 2010 Princeton study, so presumably it would have inflated by now. Apparently a study that was new-ish in 2018 found individuals at $95k had highest life satisfaction & $60-75k had highest emotional wellbeing. Important distinction.

But the general population regards a dollar earned as at least $0.90 spent ($0.925 in 2018), so it's worth remembering the "income" numbers cited are actually a proxy for spending.

The average American is also servicing $5.5k in credit card debt, bought 68 garments a year in 2018 (that number is rising rapidly with online fast fashion), believes their car & electronics need to be rotated long before end of life to keep up with the latest model. So how applicable is their satisfaction with their spending patterns to your life?

I'd have to hire staff to spend that much, a personal chef, trainer, housekeeping, maintenance. But I doubt the people experiencing "highest life satisfaction" spending around $87.9k (92.5% of 95k) think they can afford all of those - more likely they're making a lot of sub-optimal purchasing decisions which chew up that cash - which tells me an army of personal staff is not necessary for optimum life satisfaction either & that these numbers are leagues above what I'd need for optimum happiness.
To the bolded - maybe it is because we have kids - but I often feel like if we feel tight, I can't imagine how regular spenders feel!

I find the adjusted numbers interesting though.  My husband and I are just now making close to 75k each averaged out. I would not have to hire anyone to spend it all. I'd still spend the whole thing if DIY'd everything.  But if we had spending money of $87.9k each I definitely would be hiring some things out to give myself more time.

We're a four person household and our income isn't tight, but it certainly isn't luxurious. But we still do everything in-house. Our biggest expenses are probably our kids and kids' medical stuff (which is a time AND money suck) and if I had extra money I would absolutely outsource house and lawn maintenance and cooking and I'd stop mending our clothes to death. Now, to be fair, we could also stop saving for retirement and college and free up some cash. But I would like to be able to do those things AND feel like I could spend more on fun things.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 06:43:34 AM by StarBright »

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2023, 02:02:06 PM »
$75k was from a 2010 Princeton study, so presumably it would have inflated by now. Apparently a study that was new-ish in 2018 found individuals at $95k had highest life satisfaction & $60-75k had highest emotional wellbeing. Important distinction. ...
... maybe it is because we have kids - but I often feel like if we feel tight, I can't imagine how regular spenders feel!
I interpreted the qualifier around "individuals" in the studies' language to mean that in the narrowest sense - one person with full access to that income. It's a very different picture spread across a family, & also by region.

Healthcare expense in the US in particular is absurd, there are no two ways around that. You can be frugal to the point of ascetic & a common medical event can still bankrupt you. If you have the bandwidth to get angry about it, look up what the kids' care would cost in any other nation where the insurance industry hasn't doubled the public cost of healthcare by adding equivalent private spending. What we have is, globally speaking, not at all normal, nor are outcomes better.

Ron Scott

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2023, 06:19:42 AM »
The correlation between money and happiness seems obvious.

But there are 4 problems with this analysis.

First, the correlation is spurious. Having different pieces of paper in your wallet or more digits on your bank statement is meaningless. It’s the stability, flexibility, and options in life that money enables—and the extent to which one takes advantage of these—that leads to happiness.

Second, the correlation is statistical and based on trends in a population. No one experiences population trends however; our experience is individual and small-group based. So any one of us may not personally experience the trend as a correlation.

Third, since the lack of adequate financial resources can be so stressful the correlation is higher among the poor. This does not indicate a “plateau”, just a stronger trend among a subset of the population.

Fourth, feelings of happiness can be fleeting, vary widely over time, and correlate with many other aspects of life.


Personally, it’s been my experience that people who think about their own happiness too much focus on externalities and are usually sad.

Chris Pascale

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2023, 09:11:03 AM »
My observations are based on recently eclipsing $100k in my primary job after mostly making under $50k.

Everything was suddenly easier. Not just because I was easily paying the bills and had cash building up, but everything.

Work was easier, because when you make more they value you more. When I was a GS-09 making $57k, I was left to feel extremely uncertain about my built-in promotion. I actually told someone the night before, "tomorrow, I find out whether I get promoted or fired." It's much different now.

At home, we went from 1 toilet to 3.

Metalcat

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2023, 09:19:35 AM »
My observations are based on recently eclipsing $100k in my primary job after mostly making under $50k.

Everything was suddenly easier. Not just because I was easily paying the bills and had cash building up, but everything.

Work was easier, because when you make more they value you more. When I was a GS-09 making $57k, I was left to feel extremely uncertain about my built-in promotion. I actually told someone the night before, "tomorrow, I find out whether I get promoted or fired." It's much different now.

At home, we went from 1 toilet to 3.

Oh for sure, at certain levels, more income radically changes your quality of life.

In contrast though, DH and I feel absolutely no difference between making 100K vs 300+K when I was working, we just don't save as much because we don't really need to.

We actually spend more now despite losing the lion's share of our income.

But if we had to drop down to around 50K before taxes?? Oof, yeah, that would hurt.

Ron Scott

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2023, 08:31:50 PM »
My observations are based on recently eclipsing $100k in my primary job after mostly making under $50k.

Everything was suddenly easier. Not just because I was easily paying the bills and had cash building up, but everything.

Things are easier, you’ve got options you never had, a major life stressor is just gone.

For me, when I achieved my goal of having more than I would ever spend, work became so much better. I was working for enjoyment..the challenge…the game, not for the money. It’s funny how people on the job treat you when the see you’re giving 200%, running on adrenaline, and treat money more as a scorecard. You’re unstoppable.

Does all that make you “happy”? IDK, and who cares? It’s a blast.

baludon

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2023, 09:38:42 PM »
My observations are based on recently eclipsing $100k in my primary job after mostly making under $50k.

Everything was suddenly easier. Not just because I was easily paying the bills and had cash building up, but everything.

Things are easier, you’ve got options you never had, a major life stressor is just gone.

For me, when I achieved my goal of having more than I would ever spend, work became so much better. I was working for enjoyment..the challenge…the game, not for the money. It’s funny how people on the job treat you when the see you’re giving 200%, running on adrenaline, and treat money more as a scorecard. You’re unstoppable.

Does all that make you “happy”? IDK, and who cares? It’s a blast.

The opposite happened to me.  Once I hit my goal, work got tedious. Parts of the job I didn't like (and I couldn't change them no matter what) I started to hate.  I tried to focus on what made my job a dream job when I first started but it was of no help. I was done.  Someone else can have the dream job.  I had better use of my time.

It's only been a seven months in retirement, but I am right so far.  I had better use of my time than working.  Not really seeking happiness but contentment.

Metalcat

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2023, 04:04:28 AM »
My observations are based on recently eclipsing $100k in my primary job after mostly making under $50k.

Everything was suddenly easier. Not just because I was easily paying the bills and had cash building up, but everything.

Things are easier, you’ve got options you never had, a major life stressor is just gone.

For me, when I achieved my goal of having more than I would ever spend, work became so much better. I was working for enjoyment..the challenge…the game, not for the money. It’s funny how people on the job treat you when the see you’re giving 200%, running on adrenaline, and treat money more as a scorecard. You’re unstoppable.

Does all that make you “happy”? IDK, and who cares? It’s a blast.

The opposite happened to me.  Once I hit my goal, work got tedious. Parts of the job I didn't like (and I couldn't change them no matter what) I started to hate.  I tried to focus on what made my job a dream job when I first started but it was of no help. I was done.  Someone else can have the dream job.  I had better use of my time.

It's only been a seven months in retirement, but I am right so far.  I had better use of my time than working.  Not really seeking happiness but contentment.

Yeah. It really depends on the job.

It's a lot easier to lean into that "I have a lot of freedom and I'm going to enjoy this work" when you have a job with a lot of autonomy and authority to work the way you want to.


Exflyboy

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2023, 11:20:21 AM »
The funny thing for me was going back to work full time last year in the same job I had before I left that company. The difference was the entire engineering team had left and I was the only one left to provide support for an entire high tech manufacturing site.

In the past this would have driven me round the bend with stress. So why was one of the most rewarding jobs I have ever done?

1) I didn't need to be there and could walk out any time I felt like it.
2) The directors of the company were REALLY grateful.. Like REALLY.
3) I could train a new team in the way that focused on serving customers.
4) The rate of pay was more than double what I used to make and I had none of that pesky mortgage payment to think about.
5) The previous team had very little experience and some of the decisions they had made was very reflective of that, hence I could make huge contributions that made life easier for lots of people.

Ron Scott

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2023, 08:48:22 PM »
My observations are based on recently eclipsing $100k in my primary job after mostly making under $50k.

Everything was suddenly easier. Not just because I was easily paying the bills and had cash building up, but everything.

Things are easier, you’ve got options you never had, a major life stressor is just gone.

For me, when I achieved my goal of having more than I would ever spend, work became so much better. I was working for enjoyment..the challenge…the game, not for the money. It’s funny how people on the job treat you when the see you’re giving 200%, running on adrenaline, and treat money more as a scorecard. You’re unstoppable.

Does all that make you “happy”? IDK, and who cares? It’s a blast.

The opposite happened to me.  Once I hit my goal, work got tedious. Parts of the job I didn't like (and I couldn't change them no matter what) I started to hate.  I tried to focus on what made my job a dream job when I first started but it was of no help. I was done.  Someone else can have the dream job.  I had better use of my time.

It's only been a seven months in retirement, but I am right so far.  I had better use of my time than working.  Not really seeking happiness but contentment.

Yeah. It really depends on the job.

It's a lot easier to lean into that "I have a lot of freedom and I'm going to enjoy this work" when you have a job with a lot of autonomy and authority to work the way you want to.

This is key My career goal was always to have significant business authority. I had little interest in acting as “a professional” or consultant or in a staff-level career tracks.

You certainly don’t need to be the sole decision maker, but it pays to be close. Doing what you’re told can suck…

Metalcat

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2023, 06:21:25 AM »
My observations are based on recently eclipsing $100k in my primary job after mostly making under $50k.

Everything was suddenly easier. Not just because I was easily paying the bills and had cash building up, but everything.

Things are easier, you’ve got options you never had, a major life stressor is just gone.

For me, when I achieved my goal of having more than I would ever spend, work became so much better. I was working for enjoyment..the challenge…the game, not for the money. It’s funny how people on the job treat you when the see you’re giving 200%, running on adrenaline, and treat money more as a scorecard. You’re unstoppable.

Does all that make you “happy”? IDK, and who cares? It’s a blast.

The opposite happened to me.  Once I hit my goal, work got tedious. Parts of the job I didn't like (and I couldn't change them no matter what) I started to hate.  I tried to focus on what made my job a dream job when I first started but it was of no help. I was done.  Someone else can have the dream job.  I had better use of my time.

It's only been a seven months in retirement, but I am right so far.  I had better use of my time than working.  Not really seeking happiness but contentment.

Yeah. It really depends on the job.

It's a lot easier to lean into that "I have a lot of freedom and I'm going to enjoy this work" when you have a job with a lot of autonomy and authority to work the way you want to.

This is key My career goal was always to have significant business authority. I had little interest in acting as “a professional” or consultant or in a staff-level career tracks.

You certainly don’t need to be the sole decision maker, but it pays to be close. Doing what you’re told can suck…

1000%

Unfortunately, by design, most people don't have a ton of autonomy in their work.

Not so much here on the forums though, we have a ton of very senior professionals here compared to the general population. But still, we have a ton of folks, even very high earning folks, who are under the thumb of toxic management, so it's totally understandable that reaching FI could make them totally intolerant of their work, not enjoy it more.

I could never, ever go back to having a toxic person directly supervising me.

I'm personally happy to keep working until I die, but only if it's on my own terms. Throw a toxic boss in there and/or tedious work I don't want to do, and I would rather cut my spending in half and employ austerity measures.

That's why the reporting on studies like this is so misleading. People who make more money, like the population here, tend to statistically have more autonomy, more respect, and more interesting work.

You also have to account for the fact that the kind of folks who are getting to much higher incomes are the kind of folks who are *able* to get to those higher incomes. They tend to be more intelligent, more confident, more extroverted and assertive, feel entitled to success, and because they achieve the successes they pursued, tend to have an enormously inflated belief in their own agency in that success instead of attributing a reasonable portion of their success to luck and privilege.

They tend to believe that effort equals outcome, that the world is reasonably fair to people who work really hard, like them. People tend to like and respect them. They tend to have a ton of privilege, like not being from a marginalized population, and frequently come from comfortable, stable families. They are also very frequently attractive and/or taller than average.

So OF COURSE higher earning, more successful people are generally happier, because they tend to have the traits that correlate with being happier people who are treated better in society.

The research is pretty solid on this that making more money, especially in the US, tends to be solidly correlated with being dealt a better hand of cards in the first place. That people who make a lot of money tend to come from families who can pass down traits that result in making a lot of money.

Money is a huge part of happiness, nothing will make a person more miserable than serious financial insecurity. But money and power and autonomy are inextricable, and the kind of people who rise to positions of obtaining a lot of money are often coming in with a lot of power to begin with.

I've spent a ton of time with folks who have made enormous amounts of money (high 8 figure, low 9 figure folks), and I can tell you that from my perspective, what they had in common was less about talent or skill, and more about personality traits that command respect. People want to trust them, which makes it so much easier for them to attract capital and opportunities.

These are the folks who their whole lives have always triggered a vague sense in the people around them that they should be in charge. This is the kind of advantage that cannot be understated, and yet what's hilarious is that folks who have it, tend to believe that they've earned it due to merit.

Someone I know well, who has somewhere in the mid 8 figures NW, is one of these people. People just listen to her, and have done so since she was a child. She comes from wealth and just commands authority with every fiber of her being, but as someone who knows her well, I can tell you, she's not exceptionally intelligent or skilled. The world is just nicer to her, and it's pretty easy to be wildly successful when other exceptionally intelligent and skilled people want you to have authority over them.

The best leaders aren't geniuses, they're people who attract geniuses to work hard for them. So being one of these people who just vaguely inspires confidence in people is actually more valuable than being intelligent, skilled, or talented. But they often walk through life believing that this advantage is earned and that it's available to everyone if they just worked hard enough.

So is the money making people happier, or the respect, autonomy, and general comfort and ease in the world, the thing that's making them more happy?

It's obviously both, synergistically, but let's not ignore the complex interconnection of factors that contribute to someone having more success, what that success looks like in terms of their existence in the world, and what that all means for their general sense of safety, fairness, and comfort.

For some people work is a joy and for others it's torture. And it's sociologically fascinating to tease apart why that is.


Ron Scott

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2023, 02:47:46 PM »
My observations are based on recently eclipsing $100k in my primary job after mostly making under $50k.

Everything was suddenly easier. Not just because I was easily paying the bills and had cash building up, but everything.

Things are easier, you’ve got options you never had, a major life stressor is just gone.

For me, when I achieved my goal of having more than I would ever spend, work became so much better. I was working for enjoyment..the challenge…the game, not for the money. It’s funny how people on the job treat you when the see you’re giving 200%, running on adrenaline, and treat money more as a scorecard. You’re unstoppable.

Does all that make you “happy”? IDK, and who cares? It’s a blast.

The opposite happened to me.  Once I hit my goal, work got tedious. Parts of the job I didn't like (and I couldn't change them no matter what) I started to hate.  I tried to focus on what made my job a dream job when I first started but it was of no help. I was done.  Someone else can have the dream job.  I had better use of my time.

It's only been a seven months in retirement, but I am right so far.  I had better use of my time than working.  Not really seeking happiness but contentment.

Yeah. It really depends on the job.

It's a lot easier to lean into that "I have a lot of freedom and I'm going to enjoy this work" when you have a job with a lot of autonomy and authority to work the way you want to.

This is key My career goal was always to have significant business authority. I had little interest in acting as “a professional” or consultant or in a staff-level career tracks.

You certainly don’t need to be the sole decision maker, but it pays to be close. Doing what you’re told can suck…

For some people work is a joy and for others it's torture. And it's sociologically fascinating to tease apart why that is.

If you spend enough time in a fairly sizeable workplace, you notice that people in essentially the exact jobs have vastly different perspectives of the work and personal reactions to their jobs.

I personally believe employers are wasting their staffing budget by a) not doing more to motivate staff through well-structured job designs and effective management, and b) keeping people on the job who clearly don’t like their work or otherwise seem miserable. A company should make extraordinary effort to create a positive work environment and then weed out people who don’t thrive in it.

Having said that, the fact that different people have vastly different reactions to the same job argues that a significant part of the responsibility rests with the individual. Psychologists confront this phenomenon all the time: Identical environmental stressors will leave some people energized and others debilitated.  You can believe what people tell you about their lives without making a judgement on the truth of it—“He said, she said” style.

Where does this leave us with FIRE issues et al?

I suppose the most important lesson to thine own self be true. Recognize the circumstances under which your reaction to an common environment differs meaningfully from others. Run toward things in life, not away from them.

The world of work can offer riches for personal development and actualization but it doesn’t fall in your lap. It’s hard work to get to the point where you can really take advantage of your opportunities…and recognize when a job change is warranted.

In the long run, real love is usually tough love.








Rockies

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2024, 09:35:02 PM »
This is a very interesting topic to consider, as I was just congratulating myself for not striving for the highest paying management job in my field because those tend to bring a lot of extra stress and politics. Instead I can work in a technical role and not have to worry a lot about much.

My line of thinking is that I make 20% less than a manager but I have 80% less stress, that this is an amazing payout and that i should never take the higher stress positions even if the pay boost seems enticing. Do others think this is wrong? I am certainly slightly limiting my income, but I also thing the benefit to my health is major. Perhaps the benefit of the extra money outwieghs the stress cost in these higher pay positions.

Rockies

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2024, 09:46:56 PM »

11) Have 6X what I retired with and money is completely irrelevant and I'll be damned if I ever sit in an economy class seat travelling internationally ever again and I don't care what the menu prices are.

Okay I am curious - what is your asset allocation?  6X is an impressive multiplication.

And secondly - I strongly suggest that you go to therapy and on a bit of a spiritual journey to purposefully address this constant worry about money. Its something you could drop from your life or at least put a major damper on if you just set the intention to.

Daily gratitude practice was one peice of the puzzle that helped me. Just going on walks in my neighbourhood and realizing how beautiful the small things were and how lucky I am to have my life and to live in my neighbourhood changed my mindset from "I'm a broke and lame looser" to "I'm incredibly abundant, lucky, and wealthy" in about 6 months.  That and realizing that most of the world is stuck in a miserable cycle of payday loans, credit card debt, and general life disfunction and somehow I have been spared from that miserable existence.

Metalcat

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2024, 04:27:47 AM »
This is a very interesting topic to consider, as I was just congratulating myself for not striving for the highest paying management job in my field because those tend to bring a lot of extra stress and politics. Instead I can work in a technical role and not have to worry a lot about much.

My line of thinking is that I make 20% less than a manager but I have 80% less stress, that this is an amazing payout and that i should never take the higher stress positions even if the pay boost seems enticing. Do others think this is wrong? I am certainly slightly limiting my income, but I also thing the benefit to my health is major. Perhaps the benefit of the extra money outwieghs the stress cost in these higher pay positions.

Why would this be wrong??

It sounds like a promotion would mean more work for less pay relative to the time and energy increase. That's a bad deal.

flyingaway

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2024, 08:14:18 AM »
More money brings more happiness, as long as I don't have to work for it.

Tasse

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2024, 09:03:13 AM »
It was already noted years ago in this thread that correlation does not equal causation. "Income and happiness are correlated" does not prove that more income leads to more happiness. It would be equally valid to conclude that more happiness leads to more income.

In statistics, a "confounding variable" is something you're not measuring that influences both the variables you are measuring, "confounding" any conclusions you can draw about cause and effect. The trivial example I know of is: ice cream sales and home break-ins are correlated, but neither causes the other--rather, both are more likely during warm weather.

So to put a fine point on stuff other people have already pointed out... Factors like "stable childhood" are likely to lead both to higher income and higher happiness. Once you think about all the likely confounding variables in the income-happiness relationship, the correlation seems pretty unsurprising and frankly uninteresting.

scantee

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2024, 09:53:10 AM »
It was already noted years ago in this thread that correlation does not equal causation. "Income and happiness are correlated" does not prove that more income leads to more happiness. It would be equally valid to conclude that more happiness leads to more income.

In statistics, a "confounding variable" is something you're not measuring that influences both the variables you are measuring, "confounding" any conclusions you can draw about cause and effect. The trivial example I know of is: ice cream sales and home break-ins are correlated, but neither causes the other--rather, both are more likely during warm weather.

So to put a fine point on stuff other people have already pointed out... Factors like "stable childhood" are likely to lead both to higher income and higher happiness. Once you think about all the likely confounding variables in the income-happiness relationship, the correlation seems pretty unsurprising and frankly uninteresting.

To add to this, if you look at the research originally cited, while happiness increases as income increases, income isn’t a particularly important variable in determining happiness overall. That is to say: income is a small factor in individual happiness, but if you focus on just that small factor, having more is better.

Ron Scott

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Re: More Money Equals More Happiness?
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2024, 06:18:44 AM »
It really depends on what happens to you especially in your senior years. A good friend of mine was very frugal and saved hard for retirement.  Unfortunately he developed Parkinson’s and needed to move to an apartment in an assisted living facility. Luckily he could afford the 7k/month and his remaining time was lived in a nice place. It sounds like a lot of money but it’s the going rate locally. I wouldn’t be able to afford that and would have a crappy quality of life if that happens to me. Lots of money gives you choices.

This is well put IMO.

I would rather invest in flexibility and choice as I plan for an unknown future than take a 4% leap, fingers crossed, hoping for the best, but relatively unprepared for misfortune.