The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: MandyT on November 07, 2022, 09:24:11 AM
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I retired 18 months ago at the age of 52 (DH still works and loves his job). We moved from a New England state to a southern state 12 years ago to be closer to family that had also moved here.
In our old state we had so many friends! People seemed to have time to hang out and do things...even the ones (like us) with young kids at the time.
Here, not so much. in our dozen years here we've made some friends—but I do not exaggerate when I say that most of them, when I ask them to do something, will pull out their calendars and suggest a date at 1-3 months in the future. Even if I'm asking to do something on weekends or after their work hours! Not only that, but we were always the ones reaching out...rarely has a friend asked us to do something with them. Most friends, I have been in their house maybe once. I got so tired of it that I stopped reaching out to some of them.
We have had four local friends who were wonderful and available to get together. One of them passed away and the other three moved away.
I've tried to expand my friend circle in hopes of having more people to do things with at more times...but most people I meet here, I just don't click with. I tried to figure out what are the common denominators of people I get along with and can't seem to find many. I'm very liberal but have a couple good friends who are gun-toting Trump fans. Few of my friends share my hobbies. Our kids aren't friends. (Typically, if our 13-y-o makes a friend we don't like the parents...and if we like a parent, he doesn't like their kids. :) The only commonality is: Almost every friend who fits our criteria of (1) we like them and (2) they are available are much younger than us. Like, in their 20s and 30s.
I've tried both joining and creating Meetup groups...book clubs, board game groups, social groups. No dice. I went to a local Democrat coffee meeting. Nope. Have been volunteering. Again nope. Our son plays sports so we're always t the games, volunteering for the booster club, etc. Again, no.
The good friends we have had, we've met randomly...at our kids' martial arts class, through hosting exchange students, even randomly at the bookstore (that's happened twice!). So not easy to replicate.
So, two questions:
(1) Why the heck is everyone so busy??? For 25 years I ran my own business, hosted exchange students, wrote books, volunteered, and also had a kid for 13 of those years...and I still had time for fun! I know this isn't super relevant to solving my problem, but I'd love to hear some theories/facts about this.
(2) How can we make good friends who we click with and have time to actually do stuff?
FYI, I did read the How to Make Friends article posted in the thread on FIRE'd people's schedules, but most of it didn't apply.
Thank you!
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Some parts of the country are very family oriented and basically they just hang out with them. Some consider people outsiders if you didn’t grow up there. I wonder if any of these are occurring?
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I've always lived in the south, but 8 years ago I moved further south. It is hard to make friends. I thought it was because I don't have kids, so I don't have the common kid events that parents seem to meet at and become friendly. From your testimony though, that doesn't appear to be the case.
I also reach out frequently to one friend who always has to check her calendar and get back with me...even for an hour lunch during the work day. She's independently wealthy and doesn't work, she just seems to stay super busy with her husband, school volunteering, her home, etc. It's kinda annoying because it seems like people value personal relationships less and less lately.
I live in a really small town so meetup is not an option, we're not religious and volunteering for something I'd be interested in would be 90 miles roundtrip to do.
You're not alone in this making friends challenge! Hang in there!
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I am not sure what your interests are but would you consider taking a class? Where I live there are many different classes available via nightlife continuing education classes such as photography, dance, technology, etc. In addition, we have several art and craft centers that offer classes and maker space time for individuals. Places like Audubon offer adult classes offer hiking, birding, etc.
I am not sure that's your thing. That's what I am trying and at this point and it keeps me busy and interested. Making friends takes a lot of time and effort. My brother moved a few years ago and the first thing he did was sign up at his local church. That's not really my thing but that's another option. Hang in there. It takes time.
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Thank you, everyone! Good point about this maybe being an area where people are more focused on their families. This area has seen an explosion in population from people moving from up north. However, maybe they like it here because of that focus.
GardenBaker, I believe that as well...it does seem like people are less interested in personal relationships (other than close family). You hang in there too!
About classes: Yes! I'm actually thinking about looking for an art class at the local college. I'm very interested in art and have been teaching myself to oil paint, so that could be a good place to meet people with the same hobby. Thanks for the kick in the butt to go do that!
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It seems to me like a subset of parents (and my impression is that they are a majority) have multiple kids in multiple activities. And they feel they must be present for every minute of every one of those activities. For those parents, I'm not sure there is a way to break in because their only life is their kids' lives.
That could be part of why you find you make friends more easily with younger people. If they don't have kids yet, or their kids are too young to be in a million activities. So they have time to interact with other adults.
I've found volunteering to be a decent source of friends. If that hasn't worked for you, could you try volunteering somewhere else? That's a good way to find people with similar mindsets. And people volunteering are likely more "non-busy", especially if it is during typical work hours.
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I am a parent and most of my friends are 10-20 years older with either no kids or grown kids. I found it easier to make friends now that I'm not working because I actually have time to hang out and do things, at least during the school day. A place where a lot of new people are moving makes it easier as well.
In the south people are more expressive which makes things easier for me, being from the Midwest and also not great at subtle social cues. I suppose in New England people are even more direct so you might be feeling the opposite.
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Up until about 40, most of my friends were younger. Now at 50, most of my friends are older.
As for making friends, yeah, it is hard. I have to just find things I like to do and just hope the rest happens eventually. It does mean I end up with more superficial acquaintances, but those are fine for just getting out and doing things.
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I don’t have any useful advice but can relate to your situation. I moved to a new state during covid and it’s been hard. I can’t even be friends with some of the adults in my extended family because they are so incredibly busy. They have kid-related activities basically every night of the week and on the weekends. I think many people are too overwhelmed with life to make any more commitments or an effort. It’s a bummer. I just keep finding things I like to do and making casual friendships with the people who show up to those things. I haven’t found anyone yet that way that I clicked with enough to try harder. But it’s still nice to have people to talk to who share at least one interest.
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Making friends feels random because friendship is a product of circumstances, not personalities.
You can become very good friends with almost anyone if you end up in the right circumstances together, the problem is that as you get older, those circumstances come around less and less organically.
Those circumstances: you have to do something difficult together, the more difficult the better.
So if you are volunteering, volunteer to do much more challenging things that require you to collaborate with others. If you take a course, try something hard that fosters collaboration: language classes where people want to practice with you for example, community project that requires hard manual labour.
You have to experience shared struggles and triumphs with people if you want to connect with them. This fosters vulnerability and subsequent intimacy.
You *need* intimacy with people if you want to be incorporated to their core life functions. You need to get close enough to people that you get past their social shields.
For people socializing is exhausting because it's all done behind this shield of trying to impress people. You have to get past that defense for them to just hang out with you in their natural state.
If you get there, they will have more time for you because socializing with you won't feel daunting.
Most of my friends are medical professionals with small kids. They have no time for "socializing* but I'm part of their inner circle. I'll hang out with them while they grocery shop and will help manage their kid chaos, I'll sit with them at their kid's sports games, I just wedge into their existing schedules and make it easy for them to be really good friends.
You have to make it past their protective social shield first though. They have to feel comfortable exposing their real life to you, so that's why you have to engineer an intimacy accelerating activity early on.
That's kind of the weird secret of making friends, you have to have intimacy *before* you can build the friendship. It's seems ass backwards, but that's the way it works, which is why most people struggle to make friends.
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My former friends, who are usually a few years older than I am, are still working. When I met with them, they kept talking about the work stuffs. So I don't play with them anymore. I just learned to have fun myself, do some gardening, fish, and travel a few times a year. In fact, I don't even want to be bothered to have new friends anymore.
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Thank you, everyone! I still find it so weird that I've had/done all these things that keep everyone so busy—going to every one of kid's activities (including lessons/rehearsals). exchange students, running a business, etc.—and I still yearned to socialize! but as others here have said, maybe people are either much more family-oriented or they're just exhausted. I have one friend whose DH hates his job and when he gets home he doesn't want to do anything. I don't get why that means the entire family can't do anything at all ever, but I don't push it.
Hang in there to everyone who posted about having the same troubles!
I love the idea that to make friends, you need to be in a challenging situation where people have to let their guard down a bit. It makes sense. DH and I went to an over-50 meetup gathering the other night and found it so awkward. It seems that if you're going to an event that's expressly for the purpose of making friends, it defeats the entire purpose. At least for me! I couldn't wait to get out of there.
I just signed up for a one-day woodworking class, and will look into art classes when the local college announces its winter schedule. Seems like the kind of thing you'd meet people at...and even if not it will just be fun.
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I live in an urban area so probably very different surroundings from you. I have never made friends through my children and in fact some of my worst experiences have been with school/parent groups. It seems competitive parenting is very much a facet of modern middle class/intellectual life (ironically I don’t live in an area that would be quite at the peak of that behavior like some of the more affluent towns around me are). I find fellow parents to have been exclusionary, judgmental and transactional. Very much only interested in you if you have something to offer that they can piggyback off of for their own offspring. So basically since my kids are mostly grown I gave up on that.
My family is a huge source of friendships/social activities as are my children (teen and adult). I really like some of my sons’ friends. We have traveled with them and they’ve been very sweet and accommodating. Both my husband and I have become even more social with our families over the years. We each have either text chains or WhatsApp groups with our respective families that are a source of endless amusement and are multigenerational.
I also have 2-4 friends who do similar activities to me, be it biking or creative stuff.
But I really have to boast about my latest endeavor to meet people which was to go to the MMM meet up in Moab! That was so awesome! So maybe there’s some MMM folks you can round up in your area?
Also I see nothing wrong with there being different ages in your friend group. That is awesome and in fact that’s the way life should be. We Americans tend to think that people should only socialize within their age group.
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^One of my BFFs is nearly 70, and she's probably my most fun and adventurous friends. DH almost exclusively makes friends with university age people because they're the ones active and energetic enough to share his sporty interests.
Neither of us generally make new friends with people our age unless they're child-free, because folks our age with kids at home are the people we have the *least* in common with.
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^One of my BFFs is nearly 70, and she's probably my most fun and adventurous friends. DH almost exclusively makes friends with university age people because they're the ones active and energetic enough to share his sporty interests.
Neither of us generally make new friends with people our age unless they're child-free, because folks our age with kids at home are the people we have the *least* in common with.
Samesies.
It's an ongoing joke with my circle of same-ish age friends that, "Old people are Villanelle's target audience". I recently joined a women's philanthropic group and the average age is probably at least 68. For some reason, my social anxiety is nearly nonexistent with old people, even though I know that rationally there is no real difference between talking to an Old stranger or a Middle-aged strangers. I also find that now that some of my friends have young adult kids (mid-20s), I get along fabulously with them as well.
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^One of my BFFs is nearly 70, and she's probably my most fun and adventurous friends. DH almost exclusively makes friends with university age people because they're the ones active and energetic enough to share his sporty interests.
Neither of us generally make new friends with people our age unless they're child-free, because folks our age with kids at home are the people we have the *least* in common with.
Samesies.
It's an ongoing joke with my circle of same-ish age friends that, "Old people are Villanelle's target audience". I recently joined a women's philanthropic group and the average age is probably at least 68. For some reason, my social anxiety is nearly nonexistent with old people, even though I know that rationally there is no real difference between talking to an Old stranger or a Middle-aged strangers. I also find that now that some of my friends have young adult kids (mid-20s), I get along fabulously with them as well.
Yep. I'm looking forward to my same age friends all getting past the young kid stage. Most of my women friends are professionals, so had kids a bit later. That means although I'm 40, many of their kids are still in diapers or barely out. They'll be retiring by the time their kids are out of the house.
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Making friends feels random because friendship is a product of circumstances, not personalities.
You can become very good friends with almost anyone if you end up in the right circumstances together, the problem is that as you get older, those circumstances come around less and less organically.
Those circumstances: you have to do something difficult together, the more difficult the better.
So if you are volunteering, volunteer to do much more challenging things that require you to collaborate with others. If you take a course, try something hard that fosters collaboration: language classes where people want to practice with you for example, community project that requires hard manual labour.
You have to experience shared struggles and triumphs with people if you want to connect with them. This fosters vulnerability and subsequent intimacy.
You *need* intimacy with people if you want to be incorporated to their core life functions. You need to get close enough to people that you get past their social shields.
For people socializing is exhausting because it's all done behind this shield of trying to impress people. You have to get past that defense for them to just hang out with you in their natural state.
If you get there, they will have more time for you because socializing with you won't feel daunting.
Most of my friends are medical professionals with small kids. They have no time for "socializing* but I'm part of their inner circle. I'll hang out with them while they grocery shop and will help manage their kid chaos, I'll sit with them at their kid's sports games, I just wedge into their existing schedules and make it easy for them to be really good friends.
You have to make it past their protective social shield first though. They have to feel comfortable exposing their real life to you, so that's why you have to engineer an intimacy accelerating activity early on.
That's kind of the weird secret of making friends, you have to have intimacy *before* you can build the friendship. It's seems ass backwards, but that's the way it works, which is why most people struggle to make friends.
Do you think it would be easier to be friends with someone who did not maintain this sort of shielding?
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Do you think it would be easier to be friends with someone who did not maintain this sort of shielding?
Not likely, because it's part of the process of bonding to mutually drop it. Not having a social shield is not the same as choosing to be vulnerable with someone.
But certainly, being more comfortable being genuinely vulnerable is key to bonding with people.
ETA: I was just talking to my mom about one of her ex friends who has borderline personality disorder and really struggles to connect with people because she has no gauge for intimacy. She's extremely open with people and overwhelmingly friendly, but because she's like that with everyone, it's impossible to register who she actually has any connection with.
In the end, all of her connections stay superficial despite her having no walls up.
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Do you think it would be easier to be friends with someone who did not maintain this sort of shielding?
Not likely, because it's part of the process of bonding to mutually drop it. Not having a social shield is not the same as choosing to be vulnerable with someone.
But certainly, being more comfortable being genuinely vulnerable is key to bonding with people.
ETA: I was just talking to my mom about one of her ex friends who has borderline personality disorder and really struggles to connect with people because she has no gauge for intimacy. She's extremely open with people and overwhelmingly friendly, but because she's like that with everyone, it's impossible to register who she actually has any connection with.
In the end, all of her connections stay superficial despite her having no walls up.
Well - perhaps I have borderline personality disorder as well, lol.
What is the benefit of these sorts of shields? It seems like a lot of people are just constantly trying to impress other people to gain love and acceptance. But it also seems like this sort of relationship would be sort of superficial as well, or at best it would make it awkward when you go through the discovery process of learning who they actually are.
Please explain this to me like I'm a five year old. Why should I maintain these shields?
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Do you think it would be easier to be friends with someone who did not maintain this sort of shielding?
Not likely, because it's part of the process of bonding to mutually drop it. Not having a social shield is not the same as choosing to be vulnerable with someone.
But certainly, being more comfortable being genuinely vulnerable is key to bonding with people.
ETA: I was just talking to my mom about one of her ex friends who has borderline personality disorder and really struggles to connect with people because she has no gauge for intimacy. She's extremely open with people and overwhelmingly friendly, but because she's like that with everyone, it's impossible to register who she actually has any connection with.
In the end, all of her connections stay superficial despite her having no walls up.
Well - perhaps I have borderline personality disorder as well, lol.
What is the benefit of these sorts of shields? It seems like a lot of people are just constantly trying to impress other people to gain love and acceptance. But it also seems like this sort of relationship would be sort of superficial as well, or at best it would make it awkward when you go through the discovery process of learning who they actually are.
Please explain this to me like I'm a five year old. Why should I maintain these shields?
If it's not intuitive to you to maintain them, then it's not something you can or should force yourself to do.
But just because you can identify people who hide too much socially doesn't mean there is no function for the people who have healthy boundaries.
Perhaps it's best explained this way: intimacy is not something that can be generated unilaterally, it is something that develops by mutual consent of both parties.
My mom's borderline friend was constantly trying to impose herself on me as she does with everyone, and I put up thicker and more impenetrable walls with her because I could see that the kind of connection she wanted to generate was not a healthy, mutually agreed upon dynamic.
Her behaviour was the equivalent of her meeting me, sitting on my lap, and shoving her tongue down my throat and saying "see! Look how close we are already!"
As I predicted, she became hostile towards me when I failed to agree to her terms of what she wanted our dynamic to be. I was unwilling to engage because I did not feel like she cared at all about my level of interest, my comfort, my needs, etc.
Vulnerability and intimacy are challenging things and should not be imposed on people. The shields operate as filters for people to actually consent to connection.
Just because so many people struggle to lower their shields doesn't mean the shields serve no purpose.
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Do you think it would be easier to be friends with someone who did not maintain this sort of shielding?
Not likely, because it's part of the process of bonding to mutually drop it. Not having a social shield is not the same as choosing to be vulnerable with someone.
But certainly, being more comfortable being genuinely vulnerable is key to bonding with people.
ETA: I was just talking to my mom about one of her ex friends who has borderline personality disorder and really struggles to connect with people because she has no gauge for intimacy. She's extremely open with people and overwhelmingly friendly, but because she's like that with everyone, it's impossible to register who she actually has any connection with.
In the end, all of her connections stay superficial despite her having no walls up.
Well - perhaps I have borderline personality disorder as well, lol.
What is the benefit of these sorts of shields? It seems like a lot of people are just constantly trying to impress other people to gain love and acceptance. But it also seems like this sort of relationship would be sort of superficial as well, or at best it would make it awkward when you go through the discovery process of learning who they actually are.
Please explain this to me like I'm a five year old. Why should I maintain these shields?
I see a shield, or mask as its more commonly called, as a set of automatic behaviors designed to reduce the attention fatigue generated by social interaction. For example, most of us have a "smile and make eye contact " script that runs when we meet new people so that we can actually focus on what the person is saying instead of being preoccupied with remembering to make eye contact. A person who is overly formal or aloof is probably afraid of committing some faux pas, so they stick with the default script that is least likely to get them into trouble.
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Yep. I'm looking forward to my same age friends all getting past the young kid stage. Most of my women friends are professionals, so had kids a bit later. That means although I'm 40, many of their kids are still in diapers or barely out. They'll be retiring by the time their kids are out of the house.
Maybe you'll get lucky and some will be mustachian? I fit your profile (prof'l with young kids in early 40s), but I plan to retire well prior to the kids leaving the house.
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Do you think it would be easier to be friends with someone who did not maintain this sort of shielding?
Not likely, because it's part of the process of bonding to mutually drop it. Not having a social shield is not the same as choosing to be vulnerable with someone.
But certainly, being more comfortable being genuinely vulnerable is key to bonding with people.
ETA: I was just talking to my mom about one of her ex friends who has borderline personality disorder and really struggles to connect with people because she has no gauge for intimacy. She's extremely open with people and overwhelmingly friendly, but because she's like that with everyone, it's impossible to register who she actually has any connection with.
In the end, all of her connections stay superficial despite her having no walls up.
Well - perhaps I have borderline personality disorder as well, lol.
What is the benefit of these sorts of shields? It seems like a lot of people are just constantly trying to impress other people to gain love and acceptance. But it also seems like this sort of relationship would be sort of superficial as well, or at best it would make it awkward when you go through the discovery process of learning who they actually are.
Please explain this to me like I'm a five year old. Why should I maintain these shields?
If it's not intuitive to you to maintain them, then it's not something you can or should force yourself to do.
But just because you can identify people who hide too much socially doesn't mean there is no function for the people who have healthy boundaries.
Perhaps it's best explained this way: intimacy is not something that can be generated unilaterally, it is something that develops by mutual consent of both parties.
My mom's borderline friend was constantly trying to impose herself on me as she does with everyone, and I put up thicker and more impenetrable walls with her because I could see that the kind of connection she wanted to generate was not a healthy, mutually agreed upon dynamic.
Her behaviour was the equivalent of her meeting me, sitting on my lap, and shoving her tongue down my throat and saying "see! Look how close we are already!"
As I predicted, she became hostile towards me when I failed to agree to her terms of what she wanted our dynamic to be. I was unwilling to engage because I did not feel like she cared at all about my level of interest, my comfort, my needs, etc.
Vulnerability and intimacy are challenging things and should not be imposed on people. The shields operate as filters for people to actually consent to connection.
Just because so many people struggle to lower their shields doesn't mean the shields serve no purpose.
Ok - yes this makes sense.
I used to maintain these sorts of shields but after talking extensively with several friends in high school about this subject I concluded they were not beneficial to maintain for me and I became exceptionally open with everyone 20 years ago. If someone rejects me because of something I was too open about it is usually just a quick shortcut to conclude that the friendship probably would not have worked out. So I kind of view it as a time saver.
This means people can use things against me and judge me for the negative things they know about me and decide not to accept me for one reason or another. This is fine. As I have opened up to people I don't feel ashamed about the negatives about myself so this sort of behavior isn't emotionally hurtful for me, and I often find it amusing. This also tends to cause a lot of people to project their own problems onto me, which is also fine as it helps the other person to work through their issues or we can work through the issues together.
In some circumstances I do see the benefit of these sorts of shields in my life - and I do use them on occasion. But for me the default is "extremely open with everyone" then if someone has some toxic mentality or behavior I will shield up or simply avoid the person all together.
I know most people have these sorts of shields and I respect that. I can maintain superficial relationships as well just fine - I have plenty of relationships where I know people are shielded for whatever reason. This is easy to tell in real life....but on the internet it is nearly impossible to tell so sometimes I have made assumptions which are incorrect. Usually I hope the other person can lower the shields eventually but if not that's fine as well. It literally makes no difference to me - it is their life and I respect the wishes of other people for privacy. Especially on the internet, lol.
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Ok - yes this makes sense.
I used to maintain these sorts of shields but after talking extensively with several friends in high school about this subject I concluded they were not beneficial to maintain for me and I became exceptionally open with everyone 20 years ago. If someone rejects me because of something I was too open about it is usually just a quick shortcut to conclude that the friendship probably would not have worked out. So I kind of view it as a time saver.
This means people can use things against me and judge me for the negative things they know about me and decide not to accept me for one reason or another. This is fine. As I have opened up to people I don't feel ashamed about the negatives about myself so this sort of behavior isn't emotionally hurtful for me, and I often find it amusing. This also tends to cause a lot of people to project their own problems onto me, which is also fine as it helps the other person to work through their issues or we can work through the issues together.
In some circumstances I do see the benefit of these sorts of shields in my life - and I do use them on occasion. But for me the default is "extremely open with everyone" then if someone has some toxic mentality or behavior I will shield up or simply avoid the person all together.
I know most people have these sorts of shields and I respect that. I can maintain superficial relationships as well just fine - I have plenty of relationships where I know people are shielded for whatever reason. This is easy to tell in real life....but on the internet it is nearly impossible to tell so sometimes I have made assumptions which are incorrect. Usually I hope the other person can lower the shields eventually but if not that's fine as well. It literally makes no difference to me - it is their life and I respect the wishes of other people for privacy. Especially on the internet, lol.
It's about more than just being open about the facts of yourself though.
A person can disclose whatever they want about themselves without being genuine or vulnerable. The "shield" I'm describing is not just people being private and cautious about what they reveal, it's about how deeply they choose to connect with others.
There is no self-focused shortcut around that. People still need to choose to connect with one another. The only shortcut to connection is to find a way to make *others* feel more comfortable.
Disclosures make some people feel more comfortable with you, so you will always self-select for friends who are comforted by early, casual disclosure, which is great if that works for you. But the shortcut wasn't that you disclosed, it's that you disclosed to people who are comforted by that.
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Making friends feels random because friendship is a product of circumstances, not personalities.
You can become very good friends with almost anyone if you end up in the right circumstances together, the problem is that as you get older, those circumstances come around less and less organically.
Those circumstances: you have to do something difficult together, the more difficult the better.
So if you are volunteering, volunteer to do much more challenging things that require you to collaborate with others. If you take a course, try something hard that fosters collaboration: language classes where people want to practice with you for example, community project that requires hard manual labour.
You have to experience shared struggles and triumphs with people if you want to connect with them. This fosters vulnerability and subsequent intimacy.
You *need* intimacy with people if you want to be incorporated to their core life functions. You need to get close enough to people that you get past their social shields.
For people socializing is exhausting because it's all done behind this shield of trying to impress people. You have to get past that defense for them to just hang out with you in their natural state.
If you get there, they will have more time for you because socializing with you won't feel daunting.
Most of my friends are medical professionals with small kids. They have no time for "socializing* but I'm part of their inner circle. I'll hang out with them while they grocery shop and will help manage their kid chaos, I'll sit with them at their kid's sports games, I just wedge into their existing schedules and make it easy for them to be really good friends.
You have to make it past their protective social shield first though. They have to feel comfortable exposing their real life to you, so that's why you have to engineer an intimacy accelerating activity early on.
That's kind of the weird secret of making friends, you have to have intimacy *before* you can build the friendship. It's seems ass backwards, but that's the way it works, which is why most people struggle to make friends.
I know you write extensively on these forums @Malcat but the stuff you write about friendship is some of the most insightful and thought provoking information I have ever encountered. It has certainly proven true in my life - a bunch of networking dinners and conferences will generate virtually no friends (although it might help build out a population of people who I'll work with someday, or who might have interesting ideas ... it's not useless - it's just not a forum where I make friends easily). On the other hand, going out for a run at -20 or doing trail maintenance or developing a climbing route tend to generate friends really reliably.
The two elements which I think support this are:
1 - Consistency. Showing up reliably helps people become comfortable with your presence, and reassures them that you're not an internet troll (... provided that you're not). I think this might be one of the best arguments against remote work - being physically present lets people observe you so that when you do have an opportunity to tackle something difficult, they have enough familiarity that they're not worried you might axe murder them. Literally just being at the gym at the same time every week can check this box off (so can meetings/classes/etc.).
2 - Take the lead. As has been discussed several times in these forums, people are generally oversaturated and have difficulty doing what is most useful for them. If you love cooking classes, then schedule a few sessions and invite people out. Some will bite, some won't. Same thing with hikes, or bike repair days, or whatever the activity is. Lots of people do really want these sorts of social activities, but are also actually busy and don't know how to create them. It's hard work to organize, but if the choice is either organize or have no friends ... organizing seems like the best path. My perfect life tends to including groups of people who I don't organize for anymore, because by and large we'll run into each other at our known stomping grounds. If someone doesn't show up for a few weeks then maybe I'd reach out, but they might just be busy.
Making friends as an adult is hard, but it's also mostly a developable skill. My life got immensely better once I started practicing.
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Making friends feels random because friendship is a product of circumstances, not personalities.
You can become very good friends with almost anyone if you end up in the right circumstances together, the problem is that as you get older, those circumstances come around less and less organically.
Those circumstances: you have to do something difficult together, the more difficult the better.
So if you are volunteering, volunteer to do much more challenging things that require you to collaborate with others. If you take a course, try something hard that fosters collaboration: language classes where people want to practice with you for example, community project that requires hard manual labour.
You have to experience shared struggles and triumphs with people if you want to connect with them. This fosters vulnerability and subsequent intimacy.
You *need* intimacy with people if you want to be incorporated to their core life functions. You need to get close enough to people that you get past their social shields.
For people socializing is exhausting because it's all done behind this shield of trying to impress people. You have to get past that defense for them to just hang out with you in their natural state.
If you get there, they will have more time for you because socializing with you won't feel daunting.
Most of my friends are medical professionals with small kids. They have no time for "socializing* but I'm part of their inner circle. I'll hang out with them while they grocery shop and will help manage their kid chaos, I'll sit with them at their kid's sports games, I just wedge into their existing schedules and make it easy for them to be really good friends.
You have to make it past their protective social shield first though. They have to feel comfortable exposing their real life to you, so that's why you have to engineer an intimacy accelerating activity early on.
That's kind of the weird secret of making friends, you have to have intimacy *before* you can build the friendship. It's seems ass backwards, but that's the way it works, which is why most people struggle to make friends.
I know you write extensively on these forums @Malcat but the stuff you write about friendship is some of the most insightful and thought provoking information I have ever encountered. It has certainly proven true in my life - a bunch of networking dinners and conferences will generate virtually no friends (although it might help build out a population of people who I'll work with someday, or who might have interesting ideas ... it's not useless - it's just not a forum where I make friends easily). On the other hand, going out for a run at -20 or doing trail maintenance or developing a climbing route tend to generate friends really reliably.
The two elements which I think support this are:
1 - Consistency. Showing up reliably helps people become comfortable with your presence, and reassures them that you're not an internet troll (... provided that you're not). I think this might be one of the best arguments against remote work - being physically present lets people observe you so that when you do have an opportunity to tackle something difficult, they have enough familiarity that they're not worried you might axe murder them. Literally just being at the gym at the same time every week can check this box off (so can meetings/classes/etc.).
2 - Take the lead. As has been discussed several times in these forums, people are generally oversaturated and have difficulty doing what is most useful for them. If you love cooking classes, then schedule a few sessions and invite people out. Some will bite, some won't. Same thing with hikes, or bike repair days, or whatever the activity is. Lots of people do really want these sorts of social activities, but are also actually busy and don't know how to create them. It's hard work to organize, but if the choice is either organize or have no friends ... organizing seems like the best path. My perfect life tends to including groups of people who I don't organize for anymore, because by and large we'll run into each other at our known stomping grounds. If someone doesn't show up for a few weeks then maybe I'd reach out, but they might just be busy.
Making friends as an adult is hard, but it's also mostly a developable skill. My life got immensely better once I started practicing.
Very good points, but I fundamentally disagree with this one. You don't need to be physically in someone's proximity to connect deeply with them. My DH joined a new work team 100% remote last spring and the workload has been batshit insane with very high stakes. It's been remarkable how deeply bonded he has become with his colleagues. He and his direct superior are both into comic books and refer to themselves as "Batman and Robin" and debate endlessly which iteration of Robin DH is depending on how he is approaching a particular task. It's adorably nerdy.
In some ways, distance makes connections more challenging, which really just means that they need to be more intentional. However, distance can also free connection from the eroding force of day-to-day annoyance of people's constant presence. DH went from barely being able to tolerate being around his old boss who liked to wander, interrupt focused work and click his pens constantly, to remote work where all of those nuisances were gone, and the two only engaged in focused, purposeful conversations. They ended up friends because of remote work.
Likewise, one subordinate of his seemed essentially useless until remote work where she came out of her shell and started stepping up like crazy to take on bigger and more challenging tasks. She was never comfortable speaking up in a group, but on private phone calls, she flourished, and DH came to really admire her insight, drive, and tenacity.
So the dynamic is *different* but not necessarily inferior, and can be hugely beneficial for those who are less assertive in person.
Basically, it's just another skill set to learn.
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Excellent point! I think it's absolutely possible to bond strongly with people who you share work with remotely (my boss and several of my closest coworkers are geographically separate from me). However, I think that it's harder to bond with people who you *don't* share regular work with - I'm not in finance or HR ... seeing them regularly helps to foster a familiarity and comfort which is harder to reproduce in remote spaces.
It's not impossible to foster more incidental connections between distinct teams in a predominantly remote environment, but it at least seems to be harder. I say this as someone who's basically all in for remote work ... it's just important to recognize that there are benefits to in-person teams that are sometimes hard to recognize when talking about a shift to remote work.
In any event, I think this is drifting away from the 'making friends' topic and into a discussion about the pros and cons of remote work. I'd like to return to the topic at hand by asking "is friendship being incorporated into people's core life functions?" and do you draw another line to include people who are acquaintances (ie. people you see a few times a year, who you feel positively inclined towards but don't share meaningful amounts of your life with). It seems like sometimes we use the word 'friend' to mean either or both of these things (I blame facebook for this, but they're a big easy target). I think your advice is spot on for the first definition, but maybe different strategies are more useful for the second definition.
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Excellent point! I think it's absolutely possible to bond strongly with people who you share work with remotely (my boss and several of my closest coworkers are geographically separate from me). However, I think that it's harder to bond with people who you *don't* share regular work with - I'm not in finance or HR ... seeing them regularly helps to foster a familiarity and comfort which is harder to reproduce in remote spaces.
It's not impossible to foster more incidental connections between distinct teams in a predominantly remote environment, but it at least seems to be harder. I say this as someone who's basically all in for remote work ... it's just important to recognize that there are benefits to in-person teams that are sometimes hard to recognize when talking about a shift to remote work.
In any event, I think this is drifting away from the 'making friends' topic and into a discussion about the pros and cons of remote work. I'd like to return to the topic at hand by asking "is friendship being incorporated into people's core life functions?" and do you draw another line to include people who are acquaintances (ie. people you see a few times a year, who you feel positively inclined towards but don't share meaningful amounts of your life with). It seems like sometimes we use the word 'friend' to mean either or both of these things (I blame facebook for this, but they're a big easy target). I think your advice is spot on for the first definition, but maybe different strategies are more useful for the second definition.
Do people want more casual acquaintances in their lives?
I've never offered advice on this because no one has ever asked for it.
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Excellent point! I think it's absolutely possible to bond strongly with people who you share work with remotely (my boss and several of my closest coworkers are geographically separate from me). However, I think that it's harder to bond with people who you *don't* share regular work with - I'm not in finance or HR ... seeing them regularly helps to foster a familiarity and comfort which is harder to reproduce in remote spaces.
It's not impossible to foster more incidental connections between distinct teams in a predominantly remote environment, but it at least seems to be harder. I say this as someone who's basically all in for remote work ... it's just important to recognize that there are benefits to in-person teams that are sometimes hard to recognize when talking about a shift to remote work.
In any event, I think this is drifting away from the 'making friends' topic and into a discussion about the pros and cons of remote work. I'd like to return to the topic at hand by asking "is friendship being incorporated into people's core life functions?" and do you draw another line to include people who are acquaintances (ie. people you see a few times a year, who you feel positively inclined towards but don't share meaningful amounts of your life with). It seems like sometimes we use the word 'friend' to mean either or both of these things (I blame facebook for this, but they're a big easy target). I think your advice is spot on for the first definition, but maybe different strategies are more useful for the second definition.
Do people want more casual acquaintances in their lives?
I've never offered advice on this because no one has ever asked for it.
I remember some articles coming up about this during the pandemic, how people got really lonely because they missed those casual "nodding acquaintances " whom they had previously taken for granted. I certainly start feeling more at home in a place when I begin to bump into people I sort of know, when I'm out somewhere. For many elderly people the feeling of knowing and being known in the community is very important, independent of the existence of a few close friendships.
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I absolutely have sought out more nodding acquaintances (great phrase, btw) - it was certainly the part of my life which suffered the most during pandemic lockdowns. Perhaps I'm a little odd in that I've never really struggled to make good friends, but have often found myself a bit unmoored from my community because of a move/life change/etc.
Either way, I've appreciated the discussion!
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Excellent point! I think it's absolutely possible to bond strongly with people who you share work with remotely (my boss and several of my closest coworkers are geographically separate from me). However, I think that it's harder to bond with people who you *don't* share regular work with - I'm not in finance or HR ... seeing them regularly helps to foster a familiarity and comfort which is harder to reproduce in remote spaces.
It's not impossible to foster more incidental connections between distinct teams in a predominantly remote environment, but it at least seems to be harder. I say this as someone who's basically all in for remote work ... it's just important to recognize that there are benefits to in-person teams that are sometimes hard to recognize when talking about a shift to remote work.
In any event, I think this is drifting away from the 'making friends' topic and into a discussion about the pros and cons of remote work. I'd like to return to the topic at hand by asking "is friendship being incorporated into people's core life functions?" and do you draw another line to include people who are acquaintances (ie. people you see a few times a year, who you feel positively inclined towards but don't share meaningful amounts of your life with). It seems like sometimes we use the word 'friend' to mean either or both of these things (I blame facebook for this, but they're a big easy target). I think your advice is spot on for the first definition, but maybe different strategies are more useful for the second definition.
I think you absolutely can have meaningful and close friendships with people you only see a few times a year, or less. At the moment, that actually applies to my entire friend group. Well, I have one friend who recently moved semi-close but will leave for another continent this summer, at which point I will be back to having no friends closer than hours (and in most cases, states or continents) away. But I text with most of these women almost daily, we had a friend group meeting earlier this year where we all flew (well, one drove about 8 hours) to meet up, and we all work to maintain a strong presence in each others lives.
I've always been someone where, unless I absolutely friggin love you, I'm just not really interested. Casual acquaintances do nothing for me, other than kind of annoy and stress me out. I'm either all-in, or indifferent. But once I'm all-in, I will put in a lot of work to maintain that friendship. That makes distance matter a lot less. Of course I wish some of my top 6 friends lived on the same block, or even in the same state. But our relationships are still rewarding.
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Ok - yes this makes sense.
I used to maintain these sorts of shields but after talking extensively with several friends in high school about this subject I concluded they were not beneficial to maintain for me and I became exceptionally open with everyone 20 years ago. If someone rejects me because of something I was too open about it is usually just a quick shortcut to conclude that the friendship probably would not have worked out. So I kind of view it as a time saver.
This means people can use things against me and judge me for the negative things they know about me and decide not to accept me for one reason or another. This is fine. As I have opened up to people I don't feel ashamed about the negatives about myself so this sort of behavior isn't emotionally hurtful for me, and I often find it amusing. This also tends to cause a lot of people to project their own problems onto me, which is also fine as it helps the other person to work through their issues or we can work through the issues together.
In some circumstances I do see the benefit of these sorts of shields in my life - and I do use them on occasion. But for me the default is "extremely open with everyone" then if someone has some toxic mentality or behavior I will shield up or simply avoid the person all together.
I know most people have these sorts of shields and I respect that. I can maintain superficial relationships as well just fine - I have plenty of relationships where I know people are shielded for whatever reason. This is easy to tell in real life....but on the internet it is nearly impossible to tell so sometimes I have made assumptions which are incorrect. Usually I hope the other person can lower the shields eventually but if not that's fine as well. It literally makes no difference to me - it is their life and I respect the wishes of other people for privacy. Especially on the internet, lol.
It's about more than just being open about the facts of yourself though.
A person can disclose whatever they want about themselves without being genuine or vulnerable. The "shield" I'm describing is not just people being private and cautious about what they reveal, it's about how deeply they choose to connect with others.
There is no self-focused shortcut around that. People still need to choose to connect with one another. The only shortcut to connection is to find a way to make *others* feel more comfortable.
Disclosures make some people feel more comfortable with you, so you will always self-select for friends who are comforted by early, casual disclosure, which is great if that works for you. But the shortcut wasn't that you disclosed, it's that you disclosed to people who are comforted by that.
I'm not sure I understand how this is not a shortcut that saves me time.
Say I am in the dating world looking for a partner to get married. I am not particularly religious, however, I am on a date with a girl who is very religious. I can choose to voluntarily bring up the fact that I'm 'spiritual' but not religious on the first date. If this is a deal breaker for her then we can part ways and not get terribly involved emotionally/sexually and whatnot. Me being open and not having any particular shields saves us both time and emotional energy. I'm not trying to impress her to achieve a specific outcome. I'm being genuine. This also saves me from the associated guilt of having to leave a romantic relationship after a girl has bonded very closely with me.
Another example. Say I am talking to someone - a coworker perhaps or someone I meet in a hiking group. Say they are only interested in friends in certain socioeconomic classes. So they are mostly interested in surrounding themselves with people who are rich, very educated, well connected, etc. So I would not really fit into their social circle.
I can tell them I was raised in the ghetto early on and they will decide not to befriend me. Or I can hide this only to disclose it at a later date after we have both invested time and emotional energy into forming a deeper connection with each other then they can choose to 'unfriend' me because of this. Or I can simply never mention this at all and it becomes a superficial relationship, where I'm simply conforming to their expectations of what they want from me.
Neither of these examples require the other person to lower their emotional shields. They only require me to lower my own shields and be very genuine and honest about myself. In both examples doing this saves us both time and energy that I can then invest into forming deeper connections with other people.
I'm struggling to understand how this does not save time. A lot of people want to form deeper connections with people who match what they are looking for on some level and may reject people who don't conform to what they are looking for. I'm also not interested in forming a deeper connection with someone who would simply reject me because of my past or beliefs or whatnot. This seems like a win win.
Maybe we are using different terminology.
What I see as a shield is a case where someone is misrepresenting themselves for some reason, or hiding aspects of themselves out of fear of rejection, or not disclosing something fully such as their own feelings and thoughts, or as you originally said here of 'trying to impress people'. I see a shield as the underlying fear that is blocking people from forming genuine connections with other people.
Maybe they are afraid of judgement, or afraid of rejection, or afraid of people in general. Maybe they are scared of actually being loved and accepted by someone for who they really are and feel they need to use shields because someone won't accept and love who they really are. A shield could be any sort of fear.
I have spent a lot of time deliberately trying to remove these sorts of blocks in myself and other people, with the complete understanding that other people see these blocks as useful. No judgment at all and I completely understand why people hide aspects of themselves. I just don't understand the point and it has made social interactions much easier and more fluid and positive in my experience. There is no stress involved - it is natural. People understand who I am, how I feel, what I think, my background, my emotional triggers and vulnerabilities, etc, and can choose to interact or not.
It seems like we have a different view here - and I'm trying to pinpoint exactly what is different in order to understand better.
I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Maybe there is something here I don't understand.
Thoughts?
ETA: I'm not trying to argue, nor am I saying you are saying anything wrong or incorrect. My intention here is to pick your brain to better understand how you think about this because of your background in psychology.
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I'm not sure I understand how this is not a shortcut that saves me time.
Say I am in the dating world looking for a partner to get married. I am not particularly religious, however, I am on a date with a girl who is very religious. I can choose to voluntarily bring up the fact that I'm 'spiritual' but not religious on the first date. If this is a deal breaker for her then we can part ways and not get terribly involved emotionally/sexually and whatnot. Me being open and not having any particular shields saves us both time and emotional energy. I'm not trying to impress her to achieve a specific outcome. I'm being genuine. This also saves me from the associated guilt of having to leave a romantic relationship after a girl has bonded very closely with me.
Another example. Say I am talking to someone - a coworker perhaps or someone I meet in a hiking group. Say they are only interested in friends in certain socioeconomic classes. So they are mostly interested in surrounding themselves with people who are rich, very educated, well connected, etc. So I would not really fit into their social circle.
I can tell them I was raised in the ghetto early on and they will decide not to befriend me. Or I can hide this only to disclose it at a later date after we have both invested time and emotional energy into forming a deeper connection with each other then they can choose to 'unfriend' me because of this. Or I can simply never mention this at all and it becomes a superficial relationship, where I'm simply conforming to their expectations of what they want from me.
Neither of these examples require the other person to lower their emotional shields. They only require me to lower my own shields and be very genuine and honest about myself. In both examples doing this saves us both time and energy that I can then invest into forming deeper connections with other people.
I'm struggling to understand how this does not save time. A lot of people want to form deeper connections with people who match what they are looking for on some level and may reject people who don't conform to what they are looking for. I'm also not interested in forming a deeper connection with someone who would simply reject me because of my past or beliefs or whatnot. This seems like a win win.
Maybe we are using different terminology.
What I see as a shield is a case where someone is misrepresenting themselves for some reason, or hiding aspects of themselves out of fear of rejection, or not disclosing something fully such as their own feelings and thoughts, or as you originally said here of 'trying to impress people'. I see a shield as the underlying fear that is blocking people from forming genuine connections with other people.
Maybe they are afraid of judgement, or afraid of rejection, or afraid of people in general. Maybe they are scared of actually being loved and accepted by someone for who they really are and feel they need to use shields because someone won't accept and love who they really are. A shield could be any sort of fear.
I have spent a lot of time deliberately trying to remove these sorts of blocks in myself and other people, with the complete understanding that other people see these blocks as useful. No judgment at all and I completely understand why people hide aspects of themselves. I just don't understand the point and it has made social interactions much easier and more fluid and positive in my experience. There is no stress involved - it is natural. People understand who I am, how I feel, what I think, my background, my emotional triggers and vulnerabilities, etc, and can choose to interact or not.
It seems like we have a different view here - and I'm trying to pinpoint exactly what is different in order to understand better.
I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Maybe there is something here I don't understand.
Thoughts?
ETA: I'm not trying to argue, nor am I saying you are saying anything wrong or incorrect. My intention here is to pick your brain to better understand how you think about this because of your background in psychology.
If what you are doing is working for you, then keep doing.
But if I'm introduced to Colleen, and she immediately goes into a long and intensely personal explanation of why she and her ex broke up, and how her mom never made her feel good enough, and maybe that's why she always dates men who cheat and forget her birthday...yeah...that's definitely NOT a shortcut to us becoming friends, not if I've given her absolutely no indication that I give a fuck about her personal life.
I don't give a flying fuck about Colleen's mommy issues and will avoid her in the future.
And that's the key, you have to understand what level of consent the other person is giving to be engaged in intimacy with you. Perhaps you gauge that intuitively and are always disclosing when people are ready to receive it. If so, that's cool.
But my point still stands, the only people who will respond well to intimate disclosures are people who want them in the first place.
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
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I'm not sure I understand how this is not a shortcut that saves me time.
Say I am in the dating world looking for a partner to get married. I am not particularly religious, however, I am on a date with a girl who is very religious. I can choose to voluntarily bring up the fact that I'm 'spiritual' but not religious on the first date. If this is a deal breaker for her then we can part ways and not get terribly involved emotionally/sexually and whatnot. Me being open and not having any particular shields saves us both time and emotional energy. I'm not trying to impress her to achieve a specific outcome. I'm being genuine. This also saves me from the associated guilt of having to leave a romantic relationship after a girl has bonded very closely with me.
Another example. Say I am talking to someone - a coworker perhaps or someone I meet in a hiking group. Say they are only interested in friends in certain socioeconomic classes. So they are mostly interested in surrounding themselves with people who are rich, very educated, well connected, etc. So I would not really fit into their social circle.
I can tell them I was raised in the ghetto early on and they will decide not to befriend me. Or I can hide this only to disclose it at a later date after we have both invested time and emotional energy into forming a deeper connection with each other then they can choose to 'unfriend' me because of this. Or I can simply never mention this at all and it becomes a superficial relationship, where I'm simply conforming to their expectations of what they want from me.
Neither of these examples require the other person to lower their emotional shields. They only require me to lower my own shields and be very genuine and honest about myself. In both examples doing this saves us both time and energy that I can then invest into forming deeper connections with other people.
I'm struggling to understand how this does not save time. A lot of people want to form deeper connections with people who match what they are looking for on some level and may reject people who don't conform to what they are looking for. I'm also not interested in forming a deeper connection with someone who would simply reject me because of my past or beliefs or whatnot. This seems like a win win.
Maybe we are using different terminology.
What I see as a shield is a case where someone is misrepresenting themselves for some reason, or hiding aspects of themselves out of fear of rejection, or not disclosing something fully such as their own feelings and thoughts, or as you originally said here of 'trying to impress people'. I see a shield as the underlying fear that is blocking people from forming genuine connections with other people.
Maybe they are afraid of judgement, or afraid of rejection, or afraid of people in general. Maybe they are scared of actually being loved and accepted by someone for who they really are and feel they need to use shields because someone won't accept and love who they really are. A shield could be any sort of fear.
I have spent a lot of time deliberately trying to remove these sorts of blocks in myself and other people, with the complete understanding that other people see these blocks as useful. No judgment at all and I completely understand why people hide aspects of themselves. I just don't understand the point and it has made social interactions much easier and more fluid and positive in my experience. There is no stress involved - it is natural. People understand who I am, how I feel, what I think, my background, my emotional triggers and vulnerabilities, etc, and can choose to interact or not.
It seems like we have a different view here - and I'm trying to pinpoint exactly what is different in order to understand better.
I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Maybe there is something here I don't understand.
Thoughts?
ETA: I'm not trying to argue, nor am I saying you are saying anything wrong or incorrect. My intention here is to pick your brain to better understand how you think about this because of your background in psychology.
If what you are doing is working for you, then keep doing.
But if I'm introduced to Colleen, and she immediately goes into a long and intensely personal explanation of why she and her ex broke up, and how her mom never made her feel good enough, and maybe that's why she always dates men who cheat and forget her birthday...yeah...that's definitely NOT a shortcut to us becoming friends, not if I've given her absolutely no indication that I give a fuck about her personal life.
I don't give a flying fuck about Colleen's mommy issues and will avoid her in the future.
And that's the key, you have to understand what level of consent the other person is giving to be engaged in intimacy with you. Perhaps you gauge that intuitively and are always disclosing when people are ready to receive it. If so, that's cool.
But my point still stands, the only people who will respond well to intimate disclosures are people who want them in the first place.
Yes - this makes sense. In real life this is easier to gauge intuitively, and I would not simply go on about my life story with someone I just met, unless it was asked for / relevant to the conversation.
My typical approach when meeting someone new is to first listen and try to understand who they are / what they expect / their general pattern of thinking and then to decide how to proceed from there. So I'm usually pretty quiet upon first meeting someone...And I may simply remain quiet depending on what they say, lol.
As the relationship progresses I tend to be more vocal as I gain a better understanding of their personality and what they are looking for and how I may benefit them. Some people seem to just be looking for some comic relief, so I focus on providing jokes and a positive attitude. Other people are looking for someone who will listen to them and their story and emotional problems / have a shoulder to cry on etc, so this is what I provide. Yet other people are looking for intellectual stimulation for whatever reason, so this is what I provide. Or they are trying to understand something, etc.
The common factor in every interaction is that I strive to have a positive intention for the other person and see them in a positive light. I'm convinced some people pick up on this intention somehow as I have had people disclose things to me shortly after meeting them that they have never disclosed to their own grown children, or their own mom, spouse, etc. I have learned to be very restrictive and not disclose sensitive information that people share. Some people see me as a charismatic zen monk guy, or so I've been told. Other people have said I would make an excellent therapist. But to a lot of people I'm just another normal random dude as well. Or I'm whatever they are projecting onto me, etc.
So on some level I'm filtering the shit out of my conversations to provide what the other party is looking for. But I'm also extremely open and genuine about things if asked, and have on occasion misjudged what people are looking for because I failed to understand them as a person. Some people have an amazing ability to say a lot of words while also never saying anything meaningful about themselves, or they maintain a lot of shields due to past trauma, etc. So it's hard for me to understand some people on an emotiona level - I have a feeling of disconnection with people who maintain a lot of shields.
Online interactions - like this forum - are much more challenging to me and they feel unnatural. I both struggle to understand people here and struggle to understand what they are looking for or why they are even here.
It seems like some people are here because they are bored and enjoy typing shit into boxes and this is like a form of entertainment. This is why I'm here.
It seems like some people are here to learn things / improve in some way, or share things that they don't feel comfortable sharing in real life.
Some people seem to be here because they enjoy arguing with people and are obsessed with being right, so it seems to serve as a form of egotistical pleasure or this is how they derive their self esteem, etc.
Somewhere along the way I started to view these forums as a place where I type random shit into boxes and sometimes there are entertaining or informative responses from internet strangers in return.
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms. I view genuine connection as a connection where both parties mutually love and accept the other person on some level. This could be a simple smile and wave. It could be a conversation in an elevator. It could be an in depth conversation about some topic.
This doesn't mean I will or must disclose anything about myself during our interactions. It just means fear will not hold me back from disclosing something about myself, expressing my feelings, being honest, etc. It means I view you in a positive light and not as my enemy.
I can still choose to consciously not disclose anything to follow social norms or to follow the expectations of the other person. The difference is I am consciously choosing to do this at times, not because I have a subconscious fear.
I may consciously choose to do this for various reasons, such as to make someone else feel more comfortable about our interactions or to follow social norms, etc. Or I may be dealing with someone who is toxic (there are no bad people in the world - only people with bad programming) and I am very particular with how I interact with these individuals.
Sometimes it is hard to have a genuine connection with someone if they are actively trying to hurt me at the same time. So there is a point where I just give up on some people and move along. There are also points where it becomes obvious someone has a lot of shields and they won't surrender them at all. I just view these as more superficial interactions.
A shield is a psychological fear or block that interferes with genuine connection between people. It actually has nothing to do with the amount of self disclosure someone actually does - it just means if I do disclose something it will be genuine and not just for the sake of impressing you, or because I'm scared of showing who I really am, etc.
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms.
This is the issue, I'm the one who brought up social shields, meaning normal, healthy boundaries between people who aren't intimate yet, and you've decided to define them as something else, which totally changes the conversation.
I've already stipulated that some people avoid vulnerability and intimacy in an unhealthy way, but I wasn't initially talking about that.
I was simply helping someone else understand why people seem too "busy" and why casual socializing actually takes a lot more energy for many people, which is why they don't make time for it.
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms.
This is the issue, I'm the one who brought up social shields, meaning normal, healthy boundaries between people who aren't intimate yet, and you've decided to define them as something else, which totally changes the conversation.
I've already stipulated that some people avoid vulnerability and intimacy in an unhealthy way, but I wasn't initially talking about that.
I was simply helping someone else understand why people seem too "busy" and why casual socializing actually takes a lot more energy for many people, which is why they don't make time for it.
You are right - this is a completely different conversation, but it is related to the topic at hand.
As usual I'm not trying to negate what you are saying. I'm trying to convince you to write a book on the subject, one post at a time.
Should I make a different thread for this?
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms.
This is the issue, I'm the one who brought up social shields, meaning normal, healthy boundaries between people who aren't intimate yet, and you've decided to define them as something else, which totally changes the conversation.
I've already stipulated that some people avoid vulnerability and intimacy in an unhealthy way, but I wasn't initially talking about that.
I was simply helping someone else understand why people seem too "busy" and why casual socializing actually takes a lot more energy for many people, which is why they don't make time for it.
You are right - this is a completely different conversation, but it is related to the topic at hand.
As usual I'm not trying to negate what you are saying. I'm trying to convince you to write a book on the subject, one post at a time.
Should I make a different thread for this?
It's OK to let threads meander a little bit.
I can't help but seeing this whole discussion through the lens of neurodivergence. Sure NT people can intuit when it's OK to talk about what, but the rest of us need some heuristic about generally acceptable conversation starters and topics. My 7 year old son can get away with just walking up to people and launching into a monologue about whatever video he was just watching, without even introducing himself (when its kids they either just walk away or about 1/4 of the time they know what he's talking about and become instant friends, so to him its worth that gamble). A less extroverted child (or a girl, because of how we're socialized) may be less tolerant of rejection and by his sge might have developed social anxiety, and either learned to mask or be afraid to approach anyone.
-
I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms.
This is the issue, I'm the one who brought up social shields, meaning normal, healthy boundaries between people who aren't intimate yet, and you've decided to define them as something else, which totally changes the conversation.
I've already stipulated that some people avoid vulnerability and intimacy in an unhealthy way, but I wasn't initially talking about that.
I was simply helping someone else understand why people seem too "busy" and why casual socializing actually takes a lot more energy for many people, which is why they don't make time for it.
You are right - this is a completely different conversation, but it is related to the topic at hand.
As usual I'm not trying to negate what you are saying. I'm trying to convince you to write a book on the subject, one post at a time.
Should I make a different thread for this?
I mean, I've already done this. Have you seen how many posts I have?
I think I'm into volumes now.
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms.
This is the issue, I'm the one who brought up social shields, meaning normal, healthy boundaries between people who aren't intimate yet, and you've decided to define them as something else, which totally changes the conversation.
I've already stipulated that some people avoid vulnerability and intimacy in an unhealthy way, but I wasn't initially talking about that.
I was simply helping someone else understand why people seem too "busy" and why casual socializing actually takes a lot more energy for many people, which is why they don't make time for it.
You are right - this is a completely different conversation, but it is related to the topic at hand.
As usual I'm not trying to negate what you are saying. I'm trying to convince you to write a book on the subject, one post at a time.
Should I make a different thread for this?
I mean, I've already done this. Have you seen how many posts I have?
I think I'm into volumes now.
oh - right...
To be fair I have considered going back and reading all your posts here instead of bugging you for further explanation - but like a lot of social norms I have failed to understand over the years I'm not entirely sure if this would be flagged under 'neurodivergent guy with a rough background trying to understand his own psychology' or 'internet stalker' behavior. I feel like I would have to ask you to even know the answer to the question.
I'm guessing this would be more in the 'internet stalker' category so I will stay away from that kind of behavior and instead keep bugging you about how to define social normality from time to time.
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms.
This is the issue, I'm the one who brought up social shields, meaning normal, healthy boundaries between people who aren't intimate yet, and you've decided to define them as something else, which totally changes the conversation.
I've already stipulated that some people avoid vulnerability and intimacy in an unhealthy way, but I wasn't initially talking about that.
I was simply helping someone else understand why people seem too "busy" and why casual socializing actually takes a lot more energy for many people, which is why they don't make time for it.
You are right - this is a completely different conversation, but it is related to the topic at hand.
As usual I'm not trying to negate what you are saying. I'm trying to convince you to write a book on the subject, one post at a time.
Should I make a different thread for this?
It's OK to let threads meander a little bit.
I can't help but seeing this whole discussion through the lens of neurodivergence. Sure NT people can intuit when it's OK to talk about what, but the rest of us need some heuristic about generally acceptable conversation starters and topics. My 7 year old son can get away with just walking up to people and launching into a monologue about whatever video he was just watching, without even introducing himself (when its kids they either just walk away or about 1/4 of the time they know what he's talking about and become instant friends, so to him its worth that gamble). A less extroverted child (or a girl, because of how we're socialized) may be less tolerant of rejection and by his sge might have developed social anxiety, and either learned to mask or be afraid to approach anyone.
Honestly I don't really view it this way at all. If this is how you view it that is fine, but I think with this view you will be missing many of the key points I'm making here about being authentic and lowering social shields, both in intimate relations and casual friendships.
I am neurodivergent but many people have come to these same conclusions, including several of the top people in my graduating class 20 years ago who were never beaten as children or put in foster care.
Steve Pavlina summarizes my views here better than I can, so if you are interested in learning further from someone else who has independently arrived at the same view point I would invite you to read some of his material on relationships and spend some time contemplating how you view relationships and friendships in your life.
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/11/share-your-shame/
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2014/11/ridiculously-rewarding-relationships/
I'm not going to further argue my point, since I have no need to be right about anything since I'm not trying to impress anyone on these forums. ;)
See how this authenticity and lack of social shields is beneficial?
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms.
This is the issue, I'm the one who brought up social shields, meaning normal, healthy boundaries between people who aren't intimate yet, and you've decided to define them as something else, which totally changes the conversation.
I've already stipulated that some people avoid vulnerability and intimacy in an unhealthy way, but I wasn't initially talking about that.
I was simply helping someone else understand why people seem too "busy" and why casual socializing actually takes a lot more energy for many people, which is why they don't make time for it.
You are right - this is a completely different conversation, but it is related to the topic at hand.
As usual I'm not trying to negate what you are saying. I'm trying to convince you to write a book on the subject, one post at a time.
Should I make a different thread for this?
It's OK to let threads meander a little bit.
I can't help but seeing this whole discussion through the lens of neurodivergence. Sure NT people can intuit when it's OK to talk about what, but the rest of us need some heuristic about generally acceptable conversation starters and topics. My 7 year old son can get away with just walking up to people and launching into a monologue about whatever video he was just watching, without even introducing himself (when its kids they either just walk away or about 1/4 of the time they know what he's talking about and become instant friends, so to him its worth that gamble). A less extroverted child (or a girl, because of how we're socialized) may be less tolerant of rejection and by his sge might have developed social anxiety, and either learned to mask or be afraid to approach anyone.
Honestly I don't really view it this way at all. If this is how you view it that is fine, but I think with this view you will be missing many of the key points I'm making here about being authentic and lowering social shields, both in intimate relations and casual friendships.
I am neurodivergent but many people have come to these same conclusions, including several of the top people in my graduating class 20 years ago who were never beaten as children or put in foster care.
Steve Pavlina summarizes my views here better than I can, so if you are interested in learning further from someone else who has independently arrived at the same view point I would invite you to read some of his material on relationships and spend some time contemplating how you view relationships and friendships in your life.
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/11/share-your-shame/
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2014/11/ridiculously-rewarding-relationships/
I'm not going to further argue my point, since I have no need to be right about anything since I'm not trying to impress anyone on these forums. ;)
See how this authenticity and lack of social shields is beneficial?
Again, you've kind of come up with your own definition of what a social shield is. No one is saying not to be authentic.
In fact, no one is telling you to behave in any way differently than you have. If it's working for you, keep doing it.
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I don't see shields in general as a positive or healthy thing to maintain. It requires emotional energy to maintain shields, causes undue stress in relationships and social interactions, and keeps people distant from each other. I only see their usefulness in unhealthy or superficial relationships.
Or as a way to indicate understanding of social norms, such as consent to intimacy, that make you read as safer to other people and thus more likely to lower their guard as they trust you won't overstep.
See my definition of shields - as the fear that blocks people from forming genuine connections with other people. This fear takes many forms.
This is the issue, I'm the one who brought up social shields, meaning normal, healthy boundaries between people who aren't intimate yet, and you've decided to define them as something else, which totally changes the conversation.
I've already stipulated that some people avoid vulnerability and intimacy in an unhealthy way, but I wasn't initially talking about that.
I was simply helping someone else understand why people seem too "busy" and why casual socializing actually takes a lot more energy for many people, which is why they don't make time for it.
You are right - this is a completely different conversation, but it is related to the topic at hand.
As usual I'm not trying to negate what you are saying. I'm trying to convince you to write a book on the subject, one post at a time.
Should I make a different thread for this?
It's OK to let threads meander a little bit.
I can't help but seeing this whole discussion through the lens of neurodivergence. Sure NT people can intuit when it's OK to talk about what, but the rest of us need some heuristic about generally acceptable conversation starters and topics. My 7 year old son can get away with just walking up to people and launching into a monologue about whatever video he was just watching, without even introducing himself (when its kids they either just walk away or about 1/4 of the time they know what he's talking about and become instant friends, so to him its worth that gamble). A less extroverted child (or a girl, because of how we're socialized) may be less tolerant of rejection and by his sge might have developed social anxiety, and either learned to mask or be afraid to approach anyone.
Honestly I don't really view it this way at all. If this is how you view it that is fine, but I think with this view you will be missing many of the key points I'm making here about being authentic and lowering social shields, both in intimate relations and casual friendships.
I am neurodivergent but many people have come to these same conclusions, including several of the top people in my graduating class 20 years ago who were never beaten as children or put in foster care.
Steve Pavlina summarizes my views here better than I can, so if you are interested in learning further from someone else who has independently arrived at the same view point I would invite you to read some of his material on relationships and spend some time contemplating how you view relationships and friendships in your life.
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/11/share-your-shame/
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2014/11/ridiculously-rewarding-relationships/
I'm not going to further argue my point, since I have no need to be right about anything since I'm not trying to impress anyone on these forums. ;)
See how this authenticity and lack of social shields is beneficial?
Again, you've kind of come up with your own definition of what a social shield is. No one is saying not to be authentic.
In fact, no one is telling you to behave in any way differently than you have. If it's working for you, keep doing it.
Fair enough.
I will point out that I'm not trying to argue with you here or negate your points in this thread. You often have amazing points that cause me to stop and think further about things. Sometimes it seems like you view our discussions as arguments, where I'm typically trying to expand out the discussion further or discuss a completely different view of things that may be unrelated to the topic at hand. You have said things like 'what did I say wrong'? and I'm thinking - @Malcat you said nothing wrong lol.
Kind of like the sleep thread discussion - I never negated your key point or advice. I was confused at first, and asked for further clarification and sources. Then I understood your view a lot better then wanted to have a more detailed discussion of some key points and delve into more personal details since you used to run a sleep lab - but I understand where your limits are now and respect that.
I never said your original advice was wrong or bad though. Hopefully you did not take it like this. I'm typically not here to argue - I'm here to gather more information, expand out the discussions and derail the threads, lol. :)
This is what I do.
I am forever curious.
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The pandemic taught me a few lessons about friends. I suffer from chronic bronchitis and a just the normal cold or flu virus can sometimes result in a case of pneumonia for me. So when COVID hit, I made it clear I would not be hanging out or playing live music until the epidemic was over. Holy fudgsicles, you would have thought I sacrificed their first born or something. Seems my health was not the main concern at all.
Finding friends who practice equal reciprocity has proven to be nearly impossible for me so when it comes to friends, unfortunately I think less is more these days.
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Fair enough.
I will point out that I'm not trying to argue with you here or negate your points in this thread. You often have amazing points that cause me to stop and think further about things. Sometimes it seems like you view our discussions as arguments, where I'm typically trying to expand out the discussion further or discuss a completely different view of things that may be unrelated to the topic at hand. You have said things like 'what did I say wrong'? and I'm thinking - @Malcat you said nothing wrong lol.
Kind of like the sleep thread discussion - I never negated your key point or advice. I was confused at first, and asked for further clarification and sources. Then I understood your view a lot better then wanted to have a more detailed discussion of some key points and delve into more personal details since you used to run a sleep lab - but I understand where your limits are now and respect that.
I never said your original advice was wrong or bad though. Hopefully you did not take it like this. I'm typically not here to argue - I'm here to gather more information, expand out the discussions and derail the threads, lol. :)
This is what I do.
I am forever curious.
I didn't think you were trying to negate anything. I think you took a word I said, had your own interpretation of what it meant and made a lot of points based on that interpretation. All I've been doing is clarifying that that interpretation isn't at all what I meant in the first place.
So likewise, I'm not arguing with you. I'm clarifying what I was saying in the first place.
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Here are some ideas of activities you can do regularly so you are with the same group of people repeatedly:
Book Clubs - There are book clubs at the four libraries near me, the four senior centers, two women's clubs, and two social clubs. One library alone has SEVEN book clubs!! From Sci-Fi to arm-chair travel, to mysteries. They meet weekdays, weeknights, weekends. Something for everyone.
Movie Clubs - Four senior centers, and two libraries (one has Classic Mondays during the day; one has international movies once a month at both 3 p.m and 6pm, followed by discussion.
Walking/hiking groups - Both social clubs in my area have these. One is "walk and talk" once a month; one is weekly hikes combined with a meetup group. One of my women's clubs does this every week. Some of the senior groups do this too but I don't remember which/how many.
Discussion groups - One senior center near me does this weekly and the leader chooses headlines to begin and the conversation meanders. Another group does this monthly and it's quite organized. Members have a book with monthly topics and ques tions to answer, come to the meeting and watch a video as well. One of my social groups has this monthly. Most recently they discussed the ballot propositions (not pro or con, just what do they mean? who is funding them?)
I agree with the comments about working on something together. My women's clubs sew teddy bears for hospitalized children all together at the clubhouse; assemble toiletry bags for the homeless; stuff school backpacks in September; wrap gifts for foster kids (the members bring the gifts unwrapped), etc.
Google Newcomers or New Neighbors. These are social groups with 12 to 15 activities per month (movie, book, walk, coffee, potluck lunch, discussion, restaurant lunch, bunco, happy hour, dinner parties, golf, opera, reading to children, cultural events, excursions.)
Maybe the Elks? or Lions or Rotary Club.
I enjoy having regular meetings/activities that I can put on my calendar and then filling in one-off things with friends.
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I heard a radio interview years ago about "Third Place." The idea was that home is one place; work is one place; a third place would be somewhere the same people regularly go and start to recognize each other. Think "Central Perk" on "Friends" or the bar on "Cheers" ("where everyone knows your name." Someone upstream mentioned the gym.
Is there a coffee shop you could go to regularly? Even better if you have a dog!
Actually going almost anywhere with a dog may draw people to you :) Dog parks, regular parks, dog beach, sitting on the pier.
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(1) Why the heck is everyone so busy??? For 25 years I ran my own business, hosted exchange students, wrote books, volunteered, and also had a kid for 13 of those years...and I still had time for fun! I know this isn't super relevant to solving my problem, but I'd love to hear some theories/facts about this.
I can offer one potential answer to this question. My partner and I are both introverts. We have a good group of friends we really like, but it we hang out with them we're usually totally wiped out the next day. This isn't a question of physical exhaustion - we're both very fit and active - it's a mental/emotional exhaustion thing. We have plenty of time to see friends and family now that we're retired, but we need a few days to recharge after doing so. We had lunch with a friend just this past Thursday (2 days ago) and turned down seeing another friend yesterday because we knew we would be too drained from the day before. We limit social contact to about twice a week. Fortunately we have a bunch of long-standing close friends nearby, and they all know that I in particular can only handle so much socialization so it's easy to manage. When I was working, I never got together with any of my friends outside of work or playing sports because the work environment was so draining. If any of your friends are introverts then they may need all of their non-work time to recover from the socialization they're forced into at work. That's how I was.
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Sorry if I seem to be neglecting the thread I started! I didn't feel I had much to add to the "shields" discussion, and just logged in to discover some newer replies. Thank you!
The pandemic taught me a few lessons about friends. I suffer from chronic bronchitis and a just the normal cold or flu virus can sometimes result in a case of pneumonia for me. So when COVID hit, I made it clear I would not be hanging out or playing live music until the epidemic was over. Holy fudgsicles, you would have thought I sacrificed their first born or something. Seems my health was not the main concern at all.
Finding friends who practice equal reciprocity has proven to be nearly impossible for me so when it comes to friends, unfortunately I think less is more these days.
Wow...like as in, they thought you somehow owed it to them to socialize ith them? I guess it's good that you found out what kind of friends they are.
I can offer one potential answer to this question. My partner and I are both introverts.
Believe it or not...same! Though it takes us less time to recover. I could probably do 3-5 days per week of socializing, but we get <1 per week right now.
Here are some ideas of activities you can do regularly so you are with the same group of people repeatedly:
These are great ideas! I tried a hiking group on Meetup but they were going on some pretty intense hikes. I haven't given book clubs much of a chance—the one I went to, at someone's home, there was supposed to be 6 people and I was the only one who showed up! It was so awkward I think I got scared off. but I did join one yesterday that a friend is in, and it seems pretty big/active. I also joined an art group that gets together for drawing, etc....waiting for an event to come up that works for me, time-wise.
Is there a coffee shop you could go to regularly? Even better if you have a dog!
Love the "third place" idea! I regularly go to this one cafe near me, but the vibe there is kind of...unfriendly. I'm starting to visit a cafe in a nearby city more often, which is much more friendly. I should make it a point to come here 2-3x/week. It's a bit of a drive (20 minutes), but so nice!
I want so, so bad to bring my dog more places. We have a 1-year-old Chihuahua. He's our first dog, and I trained/socialized him well—people can't believe it when they meet him because this breed has such a bad rep!—but he doesn't like traveling in the car or being chill while I'm, say, at a cafe for an hour or two. Maybe it's because he's so young and I just need to be patient. I am working on it by bringing him out more, giving him lots of treats ion the car and showing him that not every car ride = vet. etc. It would be so fun to be able to take him everywhere, and I'd love to have him as an emotional support dog!
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Is it at all possible to move? I lived in the south for a really long time and also had a really difficult time socially. I left less than a year ago and now have lots of friends. I place a lot of value on having friends who share my values, so I kinda regret not leaving sooner.
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Is it at all possible to move? I lived in the south for a really long time and also had a really difficult time socially. I left less than a year ago and now have lots of friends. I place a lot of value on having friends who share my values, so I kinda regret not leaving sooner.
Where did you move to?
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Is it at all possible to move? I lived in the south for a really long time and also had a really difficult time socially. I left less than a year ago and now have lots of friends. I place a lot of value on having friends who share my values, so I kinda regret not leaving sooner.
I would be thrilled to move, either back to New England or to Europe. However, my parents are getting older and less healthy… and our 13 year old grew up here, his friends and family are here, and he loves it. We figure when he’s ready to go off to college we will decide on our next move.
I can’t remember if I mentioned this in a previous post, but I have been working really hard these last few weeks on trying to make connections. We have coffee dates scheduled with three sets of people I met on Reddit, and I also joined meetup groups for non-religious women, liberals, etc. I think a part of the problem living in the south, for us, is that many people are so in-your-face religious that we just don’t click.
I would also love to know where you moved to!
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Is it at all possible to move? I lived in the south for a really long time and also had a really difficult time socially. I left less than a year ago and now have lots of friends. I place a lot of value on having friends who share my values, so I kinda regret not leaving sooner.
I would be thrilled to move, either back to New England or to Europe. However, my parents are getting older and less healthy… and our 13 year old grew up here, his friends and family are here, and he loves it. We figure when he’s ready to go off to college we will decide on our next move.
I can’t remember if I mentioned this in a previous post, but I have been working really hard these last few weeks on trying to make connections. We have coffee dates scheduled with three sets of people I met on Reddit, and I also joined meetup groups for non-religious women, liberals, etc. I think a part of the problem living in the south, for us, is that many people are so in-your-face religious that we just don’t click.
I would also love to know where you moved to!
Is is the religion that you don't click with or the values associated with that religion?
I'm friends with several devout Muslims who are very vocal about their faith and beliefs and I just take interest in how they differ from mine. However, they are progressive, feminist muslims, so our values don't conflict and I'm able to feel safe and comfortable with them.
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Is it at all possible to move? I lived in the south for a really long time and also had a really difficult time socially. I left less than a year ago and now have lots of friends. I place a lot of value on having friends who share my values, so I kinda regret not leaving sooner.
I would be thrilled to move, either back to New England or to Europe. However, my parents are getting older and less healthy… and our 13 year old grew up here, his friends and family are here, and he loves it. We figure when he’s ready to go off to college we will decide on our next move.
I can’t remember if I mentioned this in a previous post, but I have been working really hard these last few weeks on trying to make connections. We have coffee dates scheduled with three sets of people I met on Reddit, and I also joined meetup groups for non-religious women, liberals, etc. I think a part of the problem living in the south, for us, is that many people are so in-your-face religious that we just don’t click.
I would also love to know where you moved to!
Is is the religion that you don't click with or the values associated with that religion?
I'm friends with several devout Muslims who are very vocal about their faith and beliefs and I just take interest in how they differ from mine. However, they are progressive, feminist muslims, so our values don't conflict and I'm able to feel safe and comfortable with them.
I agree with Malcat's take. For a long time I thought it was just sort of religion with which I had issues. (And that is true in a meta sense. I find most religions problematic.) Then I made friends with a Christian (Catholic) woman. She's not just a Christmas-and-Easter Catholic. She attends church most Sundays, is active in her church, etc. If you'd have described her that way to me before we met, I'd likely have assumed we could never be friends. But I found those things out as our friendship developed, which is also relevant because it shows that she's not in-your-face about her religion. Not mentioning it up front also allowed me to get past my own prejudices. While our values don't align perfectly, she'd one the the kindest, most open, most generous people I know. Based on what I know and understand of Christianity, she's probably the kind of Christian Jesus would have wanted, as compared to a lot of what I observe. All the open-heartedness; none of the sanctimony and judgement. She's never tried to convert me or bring me to church, but she also doesn't shy away from mentioning things that are important in her life, and that includes her church and her relationship with Christ.
It made me realize a prejudice in myself and also rethink how I approach religious people.
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Good questions, Malcat and Villanelle!
I think it's more the values/culture of the in-your-face Christian community I don't click with. I have outspoken friends who practice other religions, and don't have the same issues. I also have Christian, church-going friends who have more liberal social beliefs and we get along great.
I've noticed, in my region, a sort of performative type of Christianity—people wearing crosses/cross tattoos, with Jesus fishes on their car, who tell everyone to have a blessed day. This wouldn't be a problem in itself, except that these same people always seem shocked to learn that not everyone is exactly like them.
For example:
- I TWICE have had men go nuts when they asked me what my favorite thing is at Chick Fil A...and I admitted I'd never been there. Oh, I totally needed to go there because it's run by good Christians! Where am I from, anyway, to not ever have been to this fine Christian establishment?
- Just the other day, I was having a very nice conversation with a guy who was chaperoning the school dance with me...until he told me in a conspiratorial way that it was such a shame that it's hard to know which bathroom to direct kids to these days because there are too many genders.
- A professional life coach told me she doesn't want atheists "anywhere near her." I've known her for years, and she has zero idea my DH is an atheist (and I'm agnostic). Because why would anyone be different?
Up North, these situations may have have turned into good discussions. Here, it feels more sinister/dangerous somehow, and I don't dare tell them why I don't go to Chick Fil A or Hobby Lobby, why I don't give a crap what bathroom people use, or why I am agnostic. They're so cocksure that everyone is just like them, I'm afraid of what would happen if I were the one to burst that bubble for them.
It seems the combo of loudness + Christianity is a pretty good signifier that someone holds values I disagree with in a big way. Until now I have never gone out of my way to avoid people who don't hold similar values, or rejected them as friendship material out of hand—but I've now had enough of these experiences that I'd rather avoid the issue altogether by, say, joining Meetup groups like Non-Religious Women and Liberals Over 50.
It might seem like it would be harder to make friends this way, but I think it's just more efficient and less likely to end in disappointment. I'm going to my first Meetup of one of these groups soon and looking forward to it!
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Yeah, that sounds like a poor cultural fit in general.
I would have the same reaction about any community that was *that* in your face about anything, but would be miserable surrounded by such vocal people who hold such suffering values from my own.
That sounds very stressful and unpleasant. I would very much struggle with that.
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Yeah, that sounds like a poor cultural fit in general.
I would have the same reaction about any community that was *that* in your face about anything, but would be miserable surrounded by such vocal people who hold such suffering values from my own.
That sounds very stressful and unpleasant. I would very much struggle with that.
Thank you for commiserating. I'd never really thought about it much beyond "I don't much like these people" until I answered the posts here. It is stressful and unpleasant! I hold some pretty far-left beliefs, but you wouldn't know about them unless you asked...and even then I would be careful not to stomp all over your beliefs.
We're also in a high-income zip code, so combine all that with very conspicuous consumption in some people. Don't get me wrong, we definitely could use a few face-punches ourselves...but imagine your kid asking why we don't have guns at home to protect our family like his friends' parents do...and why we don't buy a new Tesla/fleet of ATVs/beach house/RV that only gets used for tailgating at home football games...and why we won't get him a $25k used Camaro when he turns 16 like his friend will be getting...and why we care so much about LGBTQIA+ equity because his friends' parents say they're already treated equally.
(Thankfully he's a smart kid and very good at understanding our answers even if he doesn't agree with them.)
One of DS's friend's moms literally called us the R word when he mentioned we voted for Biden. Another one wouldn't believe him when he told her I got a Master's at of the best colleges in the U.S. on a full scholarship, because if you aren't bragging about something nonstop, clearly it never happened. We know everything they own and how much it cost, what college the dad went to 20 years ago, etc.—and we never talk to these people because they clearly don't like us! They feel it's appropriate to say all this to a 13-year-old.
Jesus, you are so right. We're not going anywhere anytime soon, but I'm just now seeing the seriousness of the situation that goes way beyond just making friends to hang with. Just what you needed in this thread, right? :D
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Yeah, that sounds like a poor cultural fit in general.
I would have the same reaction about any community that was *that* in your face about anything, but would be miserable surrounded by such vocal people who hold such suffering values from my own.
That sounds very stressful and unpleasant. I would very much struggle with that.
Thank you for commiserating. I'd never really thought about it much beyond "I don't much like these people" until I answered the posts here. It is stressful and unpleasant!
We're also in a high-income zip code, so combine all that with very conspicuous consumption in some people. Don't get me wrong, we definitely could use a few face-punches ourselves...but imagine your kid asking why we don't have guns at home to protect our family like his friends' parents do...and why we don't buy a new Tesla/fleet of ATVs/beach house/RV that only gets used for tailgating at home football games...and why we won't get him a $25k used Camaro when he turns 16 like his friend will be getting...and why we care so much about LGBTQIA+ equity because his friends' parents say they're already treated equally.
(Thankfully he's a smart kid and very good at having conversations about important topics. He's still at the age where he's trying to find his way in the world. He doesn't love that he will likely end up with an older Toyota instead of a newer Camaro/Jeep/whatever, but he understands why. He learned today that equity can mean legally having the same choices and access to services as everyone else.)
(One of DS's friend's moms literally called us the R word when he mentioned we voted for Biden. Another one wouldn't believe him when he told her I got a Master's at of the best colleges in the U.S. on a full scholarship, because if you aren't bragging about something nonstop, clearly it never happened. We know everything they own and how much it cost, what college the dad went to 20 years ago, etc.—and we never talk to these people because they clearly don't like us! They feel it's appropriate to say all this to a 13-year-old.)
Jesus, you are so right. We're not going anywhere anytime soon, but I'm just now seeing the seriousness of the situation that goes way beyond just making friends to hang with. Just what you needed in this thread, right? :D
These are VERY important things to be thinking about in your life.
I'm glad they've bubbled up.
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That sounds like an actively hostile environment for anyone who is not already in-group. It makes sense that the majority of interactions would be shallow - I would not feel particularly comfortable being any degree of open or vulnerable in this space. So, maybe your quest is finding the other alienated souls in your area?
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That sounds like an actively hostile environment for anyone who is not already in-group.
Definitely, and I like the way you put it...because I'm sure it happens when less-liberal-minded people move somewhere more liberal as well!
Thanks, everyone, for your posts/responses. This has been very helpful.
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Good discussion. I also live in the south and I'm lately re-evaluating my perspective of where we live. We like the place, don't always like the people for many of the reasons detailed here. Also not moving anytime soon due to family responsibilities and vicinity.
We too have experienced much of what everyone has detailed. In the past it was easier for us to overlook.
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One of DS's friend's moms literally called us the R word when he mentioned we voted for Biden.
R word? I assume it isn't Republican...?
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One of DS's friend's moms literally called us the R word when he mentioned we voted for Biden.
R word? I assume it isn't Republican...?
Yeah - I had to google it. I'm assuming it's related to this.
https://www.tmz.com/2022/10/19/kanye-west-rips-president-biden-r-word-elon-musk-piers-morgan-interview/
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One of DS's friend's moms literally called us the R word when he mentioned we voted for Biden.
R word? I assume it isn't Republican...?
Yeah - I had to google it. I'm assuming it's related to this.
https://www.tmz.com/2022/10/19/kanye-west-rips-president-biden-r-word-elon-musk-piers-morgan-interview/
Thanks. I would never have guessed that 'retarded' is now considered so pejorative that we have to star out letters.
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I recently went through a couple years of this because before I retired my job and those around it were my life as well as having 4 kids in the same sport and now thats all passed. We moved to a lake where everyone has know each other for a minimum of ten years and most 20+. I loved the people here and went to many lake functions and while people were super nice the invites were far and in between and alot of people If I had there money I would throw mine away. Overtime however that has changed and now we hang with several people and of all ages. Were both in our mid to late 50's and have some of our best times with people in there early 40's or early 70's. I feel I learn things from both and as long as there not complaining , political talking people I have a blast. I have a whole group I golf with , travel with now and my wife is involved now with some things that only the Women do. So my point is age I have learned is not a factor just spend time with people that have the same interest and go at your pace.
Secondly, and this was even bigger I had a very trying medical year and rejoined the YMCA. Instead of going there to just workout like I use to where no one ever talked to each other because of cell phones an plugs in there ears I started doing classes like Yoga, Body Combat, Body pump , Biking etc.. I then after a few months talked my wife into doing it with me because I was meeting so many people. She still works because she loves her job but we go together on weekends and weekdays she goes early before I work and I go usually around 9am. Anyhow we have made so many friends I could be doing something everyday of my life now. I have found there are more people that are in your or my position then you think.
Anyhow that is just my experience and I know how you feel. There are so many people too that just dont feel comfortable inviting etc.. but I have found most will come if you organize and I dont have a problem with that as long as I dont have to babysit them or they dont bring Drama. I like things simple and friendships should be.
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Hi @LinLin -- I'm in the same place and could have written much of your first post. DH and I moved to North Carolina from the upper midwest six years ago and have experienced much of what you have. I'm essentially an introvert but I would like to make new friends. I've found it hard to find them here, and Covid really didn't help matters.
I have one suggestion that I didn't see in the comments you've already gotten (apologies if I missed it) -- mustachian meetups. There was a North Carolina group that used to get together pre-Covid, mostly in the Triangle area I think. You could bump that thread and see if anyone is up for a meetup: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/north-carolina/550/.
And if you're ever out in the Western part of the state, feel free to PM me if you like. We're near Asheville and I'd love to get together for a coffee or a walk.
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I empathize. I found that the people I've remained long term friends with were actually people I actually had business relationships with. Perhaps because all were freelancers, they set their own schedules and priorities. I do wonder what the busy-ness is all about. Some people think they are busy but in reality they are on facebook.
Recently I developed a whole new set of friends I never planned on - that was when I took a beginning class to learn a musical instrument. Over time I have found musicians to be the most wonderful, easy going community. They never seem busy. It's the one time in my life where I knew people for over a year and never once did anyone talk about what they did for a living. For all I know they could be a nuclear scientists or window washers. I still I don't know. lol. And it doesn't matter to anyone.
And there is nothing as wonderful as playing music with people -- even if you only can play 3 notes. Musicians are so accepting of people at any level (at least the one's I've met). It's a whole new world for me. They also have tons of festivals, events, jams.
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have one suggestion that I didn't see in the comments you've already gotten (apologies if I missed it) -- mustachian meetups. There was a North Carolina group that used to get together pre-Covid, mostly in the Triangle area I think. You could bump that thread and see if anyone is up for a meetup: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/north-carolina/550/.
And if you're ever out in the Western part of the state, feel free to PM me if you like. We're near Asheville and I'd love to get together for a coffee or a walk.
Thank you! I am actually in the Triangle area so I will check this out. I looked before but I think I was in the wrong place in the forum. And if you are ever in the area please reach out! If you DM me I can share my cell.
Recently I developed a whole new set of friends I never planned on - that was when I took a beginning class to learn a musical instrument. Over time I have found musicians to be the most wonderful, easy going community. They never seem busy. It's the one time in my life where I knew people for over a year and never once did anyone talk about what they did for a living. For all I know they could be a nuclear scientists or window washers. I still I don't know. lol. And it doesn't matter to anyone.
I love this! I'm more of a visual artist and am hoping to get involved with a local drawing meetup. They meet kind of late in the evening for me but I may bite the bullet and do it. I also took a one-day woodworking class and it was so fun. The people were great. I'll bet visual artists are much the same way as the musicians you've met!
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I empathize. I found that the people I've remained long term friends with were actually people I actually had business relationships with. Perhaps because all were freelancers, they set their own schedules and priorities. I do wonder what the busy-ness is all about. Some people think they are busy but in reality they are on facebook.
Recently I developed a whole new set of friends I never planned on - that was when I took a beginning class to learn a musical instrument. Over time I have found musicians to be the most wonderful, easy going community. They never seem busy. It's the one time in my life where I knew people for over a year and never once did anyone talk about what they did for a living. For all I know they could be a nuclear scientists or window washers. I still I don't know. lol. And it doesn't matter to anyone.
And there is nothing as wonderful as playing music with people -- even if you only can play 3 notes. Musicians are so accepting of people at any level (at least the one's I've met). It's a whole new world for me. They also have tons of festivals, events, jams.
Interesting you mention this. For some reason, I've been wanting to learn pottery. I fondly recall my elementary school days of making little bowls and vases an ephemera. I am an introvert with significant social anxiety, especially when it comes to situations where I am clueless (as i am with throwing pottery). So I've been very hesitant to be the clueless girl who walks into class all, "Hey guys! I want to make bowlz 'n stuff". But maybe I'd find the same welcoming vibe. I'm going to see if there is a beginning pottery class anywhere near me. Thanks for sharing this!
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That sounds like an actively hostile environment for anyone who is not already in-group.
Definitely, and I like the way you put it...because I'm sure it happens when less-liberal-minded people move somewhere more liberal as well!
Thanks, everyone, for your posts/responses. This has been very helpful.
I don't mean to minimize your experiences with this, as they do sound very frustrating, and although we are likely on different sides of many issues from your post, I totally understand the frustration with people aggressively pushing their views - whatever they might be - on you or mocking you for your views you have that are different from them.
I, too, live in a generally pretty conservative area, and although I grew up with many conservative views, I have changed in many areas as I've aged and not in others. That being said, even in the conservative area that I'm in, I've had some weirdly aggressively liberal perspectives people have thrust on me. In the past year, off the cuff, I've been heckled by someone for simply eating a Chick-Fil-A sandwich while minding my own business (ironically the other side of your post). I've been harassed for showing a video for work that happened to contain a picture of J.K. Rowling that I didn't even create with a demand that I somehow edit the video to take her off of it (for TERF views, not anti-Harry Potter is witchcraft nonsense). I've been mocked by an openly bisexual person for having my DS in dance class because that's weird for a boy to be in.
I can only empathize a little, because overall, I can at least relate to the majority of people here culturally even if I now disagree with them at least somewhat on their conservative views. I'm not a fish out of water so to speak. I have, though, tried to maintain good relationships with people who are aggressive with me on their views, as long as it isn't all the time, and they're decent folks. The first two situations - I still have a good relationship with both people. The third situation - that person is pretty much a jerk overall, so I don't really want anything to do with them regardless (and the situation of making fun of my son would have probably have been a huge damper on things regardless). That being said, I certainly wouldn't have anything to do with some of the people you mentioned - if they don't want to have anything to do with atheists, I mean, forget them of course, and if some people's beliefs are too far from yours that you can't tolerate them, that makes sense too. Other times, I try to ignore the agressiveness. I rarely challenge anyone on being aggressive unless we're really close, but I just try to overlook it if it's not the norm. Again, I know this is easier to do when these don't happen often.
All that to be said, I hope that you find good friends, that people don't harass you, and that hopefully some people who make an overly aggressive statement here or there turn out to be not as bad as they seem.
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have one suggestion that I didn't see in the comments you've already gotten (apologies if I missed it) -- mustachian meetups. There was a North Carolina group that used to get together pre-Covid, mostly in the Triangle area I think. You could bump that thread and see if anyone is up for a meetup: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/north-carolina/550/.
And if you're ever out in the Western part of the state, feel free to PM me if you like. We're near Asheville and I'd love to get together for a coffee or a walk.
Thank you! I am actually in the Triangle area so I will check this out. I looked before but I think I was in the wrong place in the forum. And if you are ever in the area please reach out! If you DM me I can share my cell.
Thanks @LinLin ! I will take you up on that. Our son (16) will be doing some college visits in the winter/spring, so I will quite likely be over your way.
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Thanks @LinLin ! I will take you up on that. Our son (16) will be doing some college visits in the winter/spring, so I will quite likely be over your way.
@Trifele sounds good!
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Here's an obscure one that I stumbled upon on accident. Become a platelet donor!
I was turned onto it by someone that I volunteer with, he's been donating for a long time... He's over 600 donations at this point. Anyways, the first time I donated platelets everyone was super friendly and grateful since you're donating your time and body to literally help save lives. It was such a pleasant experience for me that I just kept going back. The donation takes a few hours so you will just chit chat for the half hour or so it takes to get things started and when it's over.
I'm a "regular" now and I know most of the staff, and bits about their lives, their families, why they like working there and stuff like that. It's not like I go in and talk to them for hours, but I am friendly with them, like if I saw them outside of donating I'm sure we would chat. For me, it gives me a little more structure to my weeks knowing that one day I'm going to go donate. I also feel like I'm part of that community there, and it's quite literally one of the laziest things you can do to save lives, you go there and watch netflix for a few hours while you donate. Platelets can only be stored for 5 days so they're always in need.
Anyways, for me that was an accidental "meetup" that I do regularly now.
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I empathize. I found that the people I've remained long term friends with were actually people I actually had business relationships with. Perhaps because all were freelancers, they set their own schedules and priorities. I do wonder what the busy-ness is all about. Some people think they are busy but in reality they are on facebook.
Recently I developed a whole new set of friends I never planned on - that was when I took a beginning class to learn a musical instrument. Over time I have found musicians to be the most wonderful, easy going community. They never seem busy. It's the one time in my life where I knew people for over a year and never once did anyone talk about what they did for a living. For all I know they could be a nuclear scientists or window washers. I still I don't know. lol. And it doesn't matter to anyone.
And there is nothing as wonderful as playing music with people -- even if you only can play 3 notes. Musicians are so accepting of people at any level (at least the one's I've met). It's a whole new world for me. They also have tons of festivals, events, jams.
Interesting you mention this. For some reason, I've been wanting to learn pottery. I fondly recall my elementary school days of making little bowls and vases an ephemera. I am an introvert with significant social anxiety, especially when it comes to situations where I am clueless (as i am with throwing pottery). So I've been very hesitant to be the clueless girl who walks into class all, "Hey guys! I want to make bowlz 'n stuff". But maybe I'd find the same welcoming vibe. I'm going to see if there is a beginning pottery class anywhere near me. Thanks for sharing this!
If I may go on a bit of a tangent here, I started taking pottery classes this year (with my DH and my sister) and we absolutely love it! We've started with beginners' classes, so nobody looks down at us for being beginners. The studio has a very cool vibe and we've met nothing but nice people there. It's also been my experience that more experienced potters are often happy to share their knowledge with us. It's a cool community and I think it's a great place to meet interesting and creative people. And the pottery making itself is fascinating and complex and I'm a bit obsessed now, falling asleep with visions of glaze treatments swirling in my head!
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I, too, live in a generally pretty conservative area, and although I grew up with many conservative views, I have changed in many areas as I've aged and not in others. That being said, even in the conservative area that I'm in, I've had some weirdly aggressively liberal perspectives people have thrust on me. In the past year, off the cuff, I've been heckled by someone for simply eating a Chick-Fil-A sandwich while minding my own business (ironically the other side of your post). I've been harassed for showing a video for work that happened to contain a picture of J.K. Rowling that I didn't even create with a demand that I somehow edit the video to take her off of it (for TERF views, not anti-Harry Potter is witchcraft nonsense). I've been mocked by an openly bisexual person for having my DS in dance class because that's weird for a boy to be in.
What the heck?
It sounds like many of these people are coworkers or people you are close to? In the situations I mentioned, these people were all complete strangers (except the life coach)! I'm not sure which is worse…heckling your own friends and fellow employees because their views differ from yours, or heckling strangers because you simply can't fathom that other people would ever have different views. :)
Also, BOO to the jerk who said your son shouldn't be dancing. It's really crappy to tell boys that they shouldn't dance if they want to. Most male dancers are way stronger than the jerks who make fun of them! My DS did ballet seriously for over five years. He's now able to pick up other sports, like football, really easily, and is also very confident speaking and performing in front of large crowds. But not a single one of his current friends knows about his (recent) past because DS knows they'd never let him hear the end of it.
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Also, BOO to the jerk who said your son shouldn't be dancing. It's really crappy to tell boys that they shouldn't dance if they want to. Most male dancers are way stronger than the jerks who make fun of them! My DS did ballet seriously for over five years. He's now able to pick up other sports, like football, really easily, and is also very confident speaking and performing in front of large crowds. But not a single one of his current friends knows about his (recent) past because DS knows they'd never let him hear the end of it.
My brother-in-law's nephew was in dance classes for probably 8-10 years. He also was a running back for his high school and signed a football scholarship at a perennial top 25 program. Never started but did have some playing time.
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Also, BOO to the jerk who said your son shouldn't be dancing. It's really crappy to tell boys that they shouldn't dance if they want to. Most male dancers are way stronger than the jerks who make fun of them! My DS did ballet seriously for over five years. He's now able to pick up other sports, like football, really easily, and is also very confident speaking and performing in front of large crowds. But not a single one of his current friends knows about his (recent) past because DS knows they'd never let him hear the end of it.
My brother-in-law's nephew was in dance classes for probably 8-10 years. He also was a running back for his high school and signed a football scholarship at a perennial top 25 program. Never started but did have some playing time.
I like hearing stories like that because dance people are incredibly strong and coordinated. It's great even if you never do any more with it than treat it like yoga or whatever to simply build yourself up.
For clarification from before because it might have sounded weird, as mentioned, the person is openly bisexual, and I have not seen any indication that they have concerns about gender non conformance in any sense, much less in such a vague sense. On the other hand, I've seen them very often show they enjoy inserting their opinions on anything and everything aggressively with the intent of making others feel bad, pretty much because they're a jerk of a person.
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Here's an obscure one that I stumbled upon on accident. Become a platelet donor!
Interesting! I've been wanting to donate blood...I never did because I have a thing about needles, but I planned to just suck it up and do it. Maybe this would be an even better option.
I like hearing stories like that because dance people are incredibly strong and coordinated. It's great even if you never do any more with it than treat it like yoga or whatever to simply build yourself up.
My brother-in-law's nephew was in dance classes for probably 8-10 years. He also was a running back for his high school and signed a football scholarship at a perennial top 25 program. Never started but did have some playing time.
It was so, so good for him. He learned discipline...he learned about the classics in ballet and classical music...and the ability to pick up choreography helps in all kinds of sports. Sadly, he was injured in class and the injury was so rare for his age that he was misdiagnosed with pediatric arthritis for almost a year—including all the home injections, nausea-inducing meds, and pain that comes with it. By the time I advocated that he did not have arthritis, and got him the surgery he needed, he was so over it that he quit.