Author Topic: Materialism: When values are out of sync  (Read 3679 times)

Trudie

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Materialism: When values are out of sync
« on: June 20, 2021, 11:54:22 PM »
When we FIREd we downsized from a four bedroom house to a two-bedroom condo with 1350 square feet, a one car garage, indoor heated parking for the other car, and downstairs storage.  We are a family of 2, no pets, who like to travel.  There are also other great shared amenities like a common room with a bar and indoor theater, nice fitness room, and an outdoor kitchen.  And the building is unique.  It's in a renovated 1930s school house and still retains some of the original character.  And it's paid for.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I hardly feel like we're deprived or living in a soulless apartment.  Still, I'm surprised at how off-putting people can be when visiting.  We hosted my sister's family last night for movies and dinner.  They invited a couple of friends we know, and we gave them a tour.  My husband and I both felt the wife of the couple was off-putting.  For instance, while walking through a hallway where some original features were kept she was like, "Well this will eventually date out and you can paint over it.". We expressed no displeasure with it.  Rude!

It's all superficial BS, but it just made me realize I have zero fucks to give for such people in my life.  Foodies with wine collections.  House snobs.  And people who think we must be suffering to live as we do.  And they can be so patronizing.  "Well, you live such a simple life.  (Not said kindly.)  These aren't my people.  I suppose by posting this it appears as if I do have fucks to give, but mostly I feel that life is short and these people bore me.

deborah

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2021, 12:09:36 AM »
You need a speel. The person with the wine collection has a speel about just how fabulous their wine collection is. You need one about just how fantastic your condo is - just look at those original features, weren’t we lucky the architects designed the condo with such sympathy to the original building... we love having such marvellous common areas, it allows us to have low carbon emissions while having amazing facilities...

mspym

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2021, 12:35:30 AM »
You need a speel. The person with the wine collection has a speel about just how fabulous their wine collection is. You need one about just how fantastic your condo is - just look at those original features, weren’t we lucky the architects designed the condo with such sympathy to the original building... we love having such marvellous common areas, it allows us to have low carbon emissions while having amazing facilities...
Yup, be excited and pitch the advantages and things you love about your place. Who knows that you might not kick off some new thoughts/way of living for them? And only a complete rudesby would try depress your enthusiasm and then you can dismiss them without a second thought.

cool7hand

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2021, 04:58:31 AM »
What others say is more about them than you. You might think about why it bothers you so much.

Trifle

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2021, 05:12:34 AM »
Yup, be excited and pitch the advantages and things you love about your place. Who knows that you might not kick off some new thoughts/way of living for them? And only a complete rudesby would try depress your enthusiasm and then you can dismiss them without a second thought.

Right on.  Among the many things you could mention you love about your place might be the freedom it offers to travel.  Even the worst house snobs get that concept.  They can put that in their pipe and smoke it.

Your place sounds great @Trudie

cupcakery

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2021, 06:56:06 AM »
We live in a small, older house.  It seems to drive some people crazy.  We're happy there most of the time.  Certain people would constantly make comments, so they are no longer invited over and wonder why.  One of those people is in his 70s and can't retire...

Trudie

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2021, 07:38:08 AM »
What others say is more about them than you. You might think about why it bothers you so much.
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I agree with you totally.  It bothers me because it is elitist, snobby, and just out of touch with the ways in which people choose to live their lives, but also the fact that a good portion of our society doesn't.  We're.fat FIREd and still live on less than we could, but decided long ago that we wanted experiences, not things.  I also place a high priority on humility, choosing to surround myself with creatives and people who share similar values about social justice and humility.
I think the bottom line for me is that I find such people shallow, humorless, and boring.

Trudie

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2021, 07:43:02 AM »
I should add, the way we choose to live gives us other choices to walk and (equally distasteful to some) ride our bikes or the bus -- several routes of which run near our house. 

This is misunderstood too.  If we lived in Europe we'd be considered normal.

Metalcat

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2021, 07:56:36 AM »
I use those comments as entertainment.

We are two people living in a "soulless apartment", a one bedroom in an early 1970s building in the sketchiest neighbourhood in the region. We get A LOT of comments.

The thing is, people are going to judge you. You can't avoid it, people judge. Maybe they'll judge the size of your house or its finishes, or maybe they'll judge your weight, maybe your marriage, or your politics. Whatever, they're going to judge you, you really cannot avoid it.

People only *say* the judgements that they feel are benign enough to say. So when they say something out loud to you, it gives you insight into what they think isn't a big deal to say.

No one who comes into my house and asks when I'll be ripping out my 50 year old cabinets is saying it because they think the comment is judgemental. They're saying it because they think it's a given that I want to junk my old cabinets.

So you don't share priorities with everyone?
Do you really expect to? Also, would it really be a good thing?
Being exactly like others is only valuable if you want all of your social interactions to be frictionless and lack depth.

Celebrate your differences. When someone comments on my old cabinets, I actually take an interest in what their vision would be. I usually ask "what would you do in here?" and I enjoy seeing my home through the vision of other people. I'm always mentally renovating and redecorating other people's homes when I walk in, so it's fun to actually dig into what they're imagining.

It also gives me a chance for real conversation.

Them: "So when are you redoing the 70s kitchen?"

Me: "No real plans, what would you do in here?"

Them: "I wouldn't rip out the cabinets because the layout is good, so I would have them refaced. We did that"

Me: "Oh? I didn't know that, I thought you had gut your kitchen because it looks completely different"

Them: "no, we kept all the old boxes and added a bunch more, that's why it looks completely redone, we saved a ton of money."

Me: "Oh cool. Well these doors are old, but they're solid wood and I like noodling around on projects so I'm planning on refinishing them myself at some point, maybe going darker"

Them: "refacing would be easier, and it's not very expensive"

Me: "sure, but I like having projects and since I'm retired now, it's fun, not work. Plus I'm not that picky about what my cabinets look like in the first place, if I was still working I would just leave them like this. For me, if a cabinet door opens and closes, it's good enough for me"

Them: "Ugh, not me, if it doesn't look right, it drives me crazy"

Me: "Yeah, I think most people feel that way. I'm like that about cleanliness. I don't really care about what my cabinet looks like, but God forbid there's any dust or clutter in my house. It visually disturbs me"

Them: "Yeah, you're a total clean freak"

Me: "Says the person who can't let an ugly cabinet door live in peace, lol"

Them: "lol, fair point"

All you have to do to convert most conversations from unpleasant to interesting is to just take an interest, unless that person is being purposefully cruel, which is rare. Dig into why that person is saying what they're saying. Relate to the parts that you relate to and explore the things that make you different. That's the best part of talking to people.

Me and two of my closest friends all took possession on the exact same day two years ago. All three households have completely changed the appearances of our homes. We bought this tiny, dated apartment that was so ugly we got it at a huge discount, when all it needed was superficial cosmetic work, so nothing expensive, just a ton of elbow grease. My one friend bought a huge, expensive, riverfront country house, and they've slowly gutted the entire main floor. My other friend bought an older urban duplex and is living in and fixing up the hideous lower unit.

3 wildly different homes, 3 completely different renovating schemes, and it's so much fun for us to compare and contrast our experiences, priorities, etc. The fact that our priorities are so different is what makes the ongoing conversation more interesting.

Don't conflate differing values and priorities with an inability to connect.

If someone is a jerk, that's a different matter. But you could have the *exact same* values and priorities and find someone an asshole. Some of the biggest arrogant dicks I've met are fellow FIRE folks who have far more aligned with me than some of my crazy spending friends with Ferrari collections.

The thing is, even when someone is a blatant asshole in their overt judgement of my lifestyle choices, I'm just entertained. I had an old receptionists who was very judgemental and outspoken about her opinions on my choices. Over time, I figured her out and thought she was hilarious. She became one of my favourite people in the whole world. We just both held strong opinions and both had shitty filters. She was not an actual asshole, not even a little bit, she was a fucking nutter, and in her own Froot Loops way one of the most emotionally generous people I've ever worked with. Even though the first thing she ever said to me, her new boss, was "you drive that piece of shit?"

My favourite thing she ever said to me was "you look really nice today, and I don't give false compliments, I'll only tell you you look nice when you do". I said "we've been working together for 2 years and you've never said I look nice". She said "I know".
I...died...laughing...

People are complicated, and most are pretty shitty at social interactions. You can either let them be off putting, or try to dig in and see what's behind their cringey behaviour.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 08:02:50 AM by Malcat »

Fishindude

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2021, 11:46:15 AM »
I have a snobbish, rude in law that is a fitness freak, has a place in Florida and makes it a point to tell everyone about this stuff non stop.
We invented a new drinking game ...... anytime we hear the word Yoga, Workout or Florida, you chug a snort :)

Best thing you can do is not give a sh#t, and make it a point to let them know you don't give a sh#t about their opinion.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 07:55:58 AM by Fishindude »

Metalcat

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2021, 12:10:51 PM »
I have a snobbish, rude in law that is a fitness freak, has a place in Florida and makes it a point to tell everyone about this stull non stop.
We invented a new drinking game ...... anytime we hear the word Yoga, Workout or Florida, you chug a snort :)

Best thing you can do is not give a sh#t, and make it a point to let them know you don't give a sh#t about their opinion.

I too have one hateful in law whom DH and I have a metaphorical drinking game about (we don't drink), but ironically, she's the one I have the most in common with. She's just not a nice person and her own family don't like her.

Meanwhile another in law is the polar opposite of me: lifestyle, politics, values, etc, but he's a genuinely warm and caring person. Talking to him kind of makes my head spin, and makes me lament for the world sometimes, but I'll pick a dinner with him over the other in law any day, and talking to him helps me understand why people might hold opinions that I find unsavoury.

Loren Ver

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2021, 12:16:57 PM »
I find that my material values don't align with really, anyones.  Well, maybe DHs or he just humors me and I him.  That's why we have a suit of armor in our basement :).  Yeah, we totally spent money on that.  More than most of our furniture actually.

Our material values don't align with our closest friends.  We are very different that our friends.  We are the only ones that are FIREd or even within 10 years of FIREing as far as we know.  Most earn more than us, all are more spendy than us.  Some have even commented on our little house and on our suit of armor :). 

But being friends with people that are different than yourself is what makes life more interesting. 

Malcat makes some great points about this and so does deborah, about having a speel.  If it is something you take pride in, lead with it.  Most people spend a lot of time tearing down their abode and updating, so it is considered "safe" conversation topic for most circles. 

When asked something like, "Uh, why do you have a suit of armor?" the response is usually, "Huh, oh, you mean you don't? (follow up question or statement then directs conversation)"  Said very inquisitively.  Turning the conversation back around to them does wonders, you get to learn if they are a person worth learning more about, and you don't feel like you need to justify your decisions if you don't want to.  Or, you can use it as an opportunity to give a history lesson about the place, maybe they will learn something.

Metalcat

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2021, 12:21:02 PM »
Sorry, my Jewish self can't help but pipe up and say that it's "spiel", although technically the Yiddish spelling is "shpil" according to Google.

bacchi

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2021, 11:16:27 AM »
Ha, I may be one of those people. I'm not trying to be rude or trying to put someone down but I assume that people have similar thoughts about design like what Malcat expressed.


Me: Oh, wow, original dark-stained, 70s wood, in the game room. Are you going to sand and paint that or just drywall over it?

Them: Nah, we decided to go retro in this room. We're going to get some bean bags and a ping-pong table.

Me: Nice! That'll be fun.


We've all met status jerks who sneer as they ask, "You work on your own yard? How cute. We hire out a crew for that." but this individual may not be like that.

use2betrix

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2021, 12:00:45 PM »
Since you’re FIRE’d, I’d probably just toss in the jab of… “Oh it doesn’t bother us too much, since we retired we spend most of our time traveling anyways. How’s your job going?”

I’m good at making situations uncomfortable though.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2021, 08:09:34 PM »
There is another "strategy" LOL.....
As 'beige type' people turn onto our 300ft driveway through a maple swamp they may only notice a few of the dozens of grotesques spying on them as they pull up to our Victorian full of oddities and antiques. Yeah it's a tiny kitchen (very functional) but if you look out the sink's window you will see an eye-level bird feeder (in constant operation for over 15 years) and as many as 10 cardinals, some jays, and a woodpecker all at the same time. A few yards further and you will see herons and egrets wading along the pond.

There is really no point of reference for materialistic visitors to even comment on cabinets especially when served home made wonders from our outdated tiny kitchen.

InvincibleChutzpah

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2021, 07:37:16 AM »
Since you’re FIRE’d, I’d probably just toss in the jab of… “Oh it doesn’t bother us too much, since we retired we spend most of our time traveling anyways. How’s your job going?”

I’m good at making situations uncomfortable though.

This would be my response too. I'd probably say something along the lines of " I decided long ago to stop caring about things that aren't important to me. This is the perfect home for the life I want." I got similar snubs as OP when I first moved into a 500 sq ft condo in a great walkable downtown neighborhood.

Sister: You know, with your job, you could get a bigger house north of town.
Me: Why? So I can spend my days cleaning it and have to drive 20 minutes to have a semblance of a social life?

lhamo

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2021, 02:07:29 PM »
I would try to come up with a somewhat canned response, something along the lines of "We actually enjoy a more low-key, low-impact lifestyle.  And since we are retired we have plenty of time to explore options that are better for both us and the planet, like living more centrally in a smaller place and walking/biking/taking public transit rather than driving.  Would you like some more artisanal cheese and organic local wine we got at the farmer's market yesterday?"

It is kind of annoying that you have to virtue signal like that to get some people to back off, but it is one way to make very clear that your choices are based on your core values and not something you see as deprivation.

Metalcat

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2021, 02:39:04 PM »
I would try to come up with a somewhat canned response, something along the lines of "We actually enjoy a more low-key, low-impact lifestyle.  And since we are retired we have plenty of time to explore options that are better for both us and the planet, like living more centrally in a smaller place and walking/biking/taking public transit rather than driving.  Would you like some more artisanal cheese and organic local wine we got at the farmer's market yesterday?"

It is kind of annoying that you have to virtue signal like that to get some people to back off, but it is one way to make very clear that your choices are based on your core values and not something you see as deprivation.

I would counter that you don't really have to do this unless you want to preach about your environmental values. If that's a priority you want to talk about, then cool. But if the only purpose is to try and justify your life choices, then it's really not necessary.

There are a lot of ways to get people to "back off" or to illustrate that you aren't living in deprivation. It all depends on what outcome the person is looking for.

If it's just to make the person back off, the possibilities are endless.
If it's to make clear that you're happy with your life choices, then just say that and don't worry too much about their reaction to it.

We were at my in laws yesterday seeing people for the first time since covid started. They're all big house with a pool and a garden type of people. They were all so curious how we were "surviving" living in a small one bedroom apartment, working from home, and unable to go anywhere.

You could see the anticipation from some of them who think the fact that we downsized is insane. I just said that we love our home.

Do they get it? No.
Does it matter? Not really, they judge us for all sorts of shit.

If you care about connecting with someone, then go with trying to understand them. If you don't care about connecting with them, them why care about what they think?

Cassie

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2021, 03:44:45 PM »
First of all your home sounds great! I just don’t invite people like that over a second time.   I love dogs and at one point we had 4 rescues. One was a 80lb old guy that liked to lay under the dining room table while we ate and visited and bothered no one. Someone once didn’t like it and expressed that opinion. I left the dog and never invited them again.

Metalcat

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2021, 04:51:23 PM »
First of all your home sounds great! I just don’t invite people like that over a second time.   I love dogs and at one point we had 4 rescues. One was a 80lb old guy that liked to lay under the dining room table while we ate and visited and bothered no one. Someone once didn’t like it and expressed that opinion. I left the dog and never invited them again.

Lol! I totally use my dog as an excuse to not invite people I don't like, especially people with kids. My dog bites.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2021, 11:11:57 PM »
For the reductio ad absurdum  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum  version of materialism, I submit the following from usenet newsgroup alt.pave.the.earth  .

THE CREED™ of the PAVERS (traditional version)

We believe in a completely Paved Earth.
       Earth is cursed with trees, shrubs, grass,     
       and scurrying creatures. With every breath
       We act to right this terrible wrong.

We believe in The Plan™.
       The Plan™ is the final word; it brings us
       the knowledge of the twin pleasures:
       Speed and Convenience.

We believe food should be enjoyed.
       "Nutrition" is an aberration of human nature.
       The juicy Burger and hearty Beer are Our sacrament.

We believe in the Depletion of scarce natural resources.
       Some see the vessel as half full; others see it as
       half-empty; We pour it out on the floor and laugh.

We believe in a sky roiling with Smog.
     The color blue should appear nowhere but the paint
       on Our HyperCars™.


I think this covers the entirety of materialism.

FireLane

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Re: Materialism: When values are out of sync
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2021, 02:57:08 PM »
We deal with this in our family too. Mrs. FL and I own an ~800-square-foot, 2-bedroom, 1-bathroom condo. It's perfectly adequate for us and our son, and we live in a very walkable neighborhood with parks, playgrounds and lots of public green space. We're happy where we are, but we get nudges and pressure from all our parents, wanting to know when we're going to move out to the suburbs and buy a big house with a fenced-off backyard.

On paper, we could afford to do that, but we don't want to. In our neck of the woods, a house like that would cost a million dollars, plus we'd have higher property taxes and maintenance bills every year thereafter. I'd be tied to my job for decades to pay that mortgage. Owning a small and efficient home and putting the extra money into investments is what's allowing us to FIRE in our 30s.

We've explained this to our parents, but they seem unable to follow our reasoning. I think that, to their generation, the white-picket-fence scenario was a status symbol showing that you're comfortable and successful. But that's not what we aspire to. I'd much rather have the freedom of not having to work, even if our dwelling "seems" smaller and less impressive.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 04:01:55 PM by FireLane »