Is Retirement worth it?

[GD29]

Greetings-

I work in the field of aging and can say by far those best off well in their eighties are those very engaged in a wide variety of activities from board membership, volunteering and continued paid working.  What's to be said about focusing on retiring and then seeing decline?  I can share my father retired at 55 and it was not good for his marriage ( my parents divorced) and he was not engaged....

Here's a blog from 'Blue Zones' about this... https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20241028/dan-buettner-retirement-might-not-be-that-good-of-an-idea

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose and saving money can always go towards charities/causes?

[Metalcat]

Greetings-

I work in the field of aging and can say by far those best off well in their eighties are those very engaged in a wide variety of activities from board membership, volunteering and continued paid working.  What's to be said about focusing on retiring and then seeing decline?  I can share my father retired at 55 and it was not good for his marriage ( my parents divorced) and he was not engaged....

Here's a blog from 'Blue Zones' about this... https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20241028/dan-buettner-retirement-might-not-be-that-good-of-an-idea

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose and saving money can always go towards charities/causes?

Welcome to the forum where most folks are retiring early from jobs that don't make them happy.

Retirement doesn't mean doing nothing.

[curious_george]

One reason I'm retiring early is to actually get out of my office chair and spend more time doing physical things and seeing people, etc.

I doubt anyone on these forums are retiring just to disengage from the world and watch TV and eat steak and potatoes for the rest of their life.

[nereo]

I suggest taking a deep dive through the actual blog, then the forum. As Metcat said, “retirement” doesn’t mean doing nothing. There’s also a subset of us FI folks who continue to work for various reasons but often in places far removed from our “pre-FI” careers. We are called SWAMIs (again, see the blog for context).
If you are deeply unhappy with your life/marriage during your working years and see retirement as some sort of fix then your outcome is likely to be sub standard. Success comes with working toward other goals, not running away from your current life.

[Metalcat]

I suggest taking a deep dive through the actual blog, then the forum. As Metcat said, “retirement” doesn’t mean doing nothing. There’s also a subset of us FI folks who continue to work for various reasons but often in places far removed from our “pre-FI” careers. We are called SWAMIs (again, see the blog for context).
If you are deeply unhappy with your life/marriage during your working years and see retirement as some sort of fix then your outcome is likely to be sub standard. Success comes with working toward other goals, not running away from your current life.

Exactly. There are plenty of us SWAMI folks here who continue to keep working because we love what we do.

Unfortunately, there are also a lot of burnt out folks here who desperately need to leave their jobs to preserve/improve their overall health.

People are complex. But yeah, if someone retires and struggles to be happy and healthy, they probably need therapy, not to go back to the job that they chose to leave for a reason.

[Fru-Gal]

My parents in their 80s were/are doing tons of activities, international travel, religious communities, crafts, projects, building, etc. Both “retired” a long time ago.

I FIREd very slightly early (earlier than my parents) and nearly 3 years in I LOVE IT. My fave saying is HEALTH IS WEALTH. I am currently achieving peak fitness. Though you can and should do that while employed, it is so convenient to focus on without the daily job.

I also have tons of projects and goals. Not working for someone else — which essentially translates to living someone else’s dream — is really the only thing that’s different about FIRE for me.

[GuitarStv]

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

[Metalcat]

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

I think this is a little extreme.

There are plenty of jobs that people love doing, even "working for someone else." Sometimes the kind of work you want to do requires being part of an organization.

There's nothing inherently bad about working for someone else.

[curious_george]

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

Even if you don't derive any meaning or purpose from work itself, don't you derive meaning and purpose from the relationships you have with your coworkers?

[charis]

@Skyhigh ?

[curious_george]

@Skyhigh ?

This post is way too short to be one of Skyhighs posts - they are always epicly long.

[bacchi]

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

Even if you don't derive any meaning or purpose from work itself, don't you derive meaning and purpose from the relationships you have with your coworkers?

I never did. WFH was the 2nd best thing that happened to my career (the 1st was becoming an independent contractor).

[GilesMM]

Some people derive purpose from their work and work forever.  Look at Warren Buffett, Jimmy Carter, or Dolly Parton or many business owners, physicians, and inventors. 


Others find work stressful and need to retire for mental and physical well-being.  If they are able to find other interesting things to do it all works out.   


Many people "retire" from a full time job to a part-time job doing something they enjoy more.  I know several who have retired and died within a couple years.

Different strokes.

[2Birds1Stone]

Are you Skyhigh's offspring?

[chasingthegoodlife]

Mav, you might enjoy this short article about retirees in Japan, which speculates that the secret to a good retirement is a balanced working life with plenty of other sources of meaning and connection throughout the lifespan:

https://theconversation.com/i-spoke-to-100-japanese-seniors-and-learnt-the-secret-to-a-good-retirement-is-a-good-working-life-238571

I also work in an ageing adjacent occupation and think a lot about what makes a good old age. I think it can be a bit tricky to draw conclusions from anecdotal experience in this cohort though - people who are still working into their 70s and 80s are probably much more likely to have a ‘passion job’, to be of good health, and I expect we would see class/socioeconomic differences too.

If someone working at 75 is on average happier than someone who isn’t, that isn’t necessarily an indication for the 65yo who hates their job and just got a cancer diagnosis to keep working. It’s just more data we can use to design the right life for ourselves individually - considering what aspects of work-like activity we want to keep in out life as we get older.

[GuitarStv]

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

Even if you don't derive any meaning or purpose from work itself, don't you derive meaning and purpose from the relationships you have with your coworkers?

Nope.  None at all.

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

I think this is a little extreme.

There are plenty of jobs that people love doing, even "working for someone else." Sometimes the kind of work you want to do requires being part of an organization.

There's nothing inherently bad about working for someone else.

There's nothing wrong with having a job or working for someone else.  There are plenty of people who derive satisfaction and joy from it, and that's cool.  But if that's the only way you've got to derive purpose and meaning in your life - ugh.  That is a seriously unhealthy world view and a real problem that needs to be addressed ASAP.

My uncle was a police officer for his whole life.  He is one of those folks who derived a lot of purpose and meaning from his job.  In the past eight years since he retired, he has completely gone to pieces being unable to process life without work.  He has lost and driven away friends, made life incredibly difficult for my aunt, and as far as I can tell is now borderline suicidal - refusing to seek treatment for medical conditions, and constantly talking about how he's ready to die.

[Metalcat]

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

Even if you don't derive any meaning or purpose from work itself, don't you derive meaning and purpose from the relationships you have with your coworkers?

Nope.  None at all.

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

I think this is a little extreme.

There are plenty of jobs that people love doing, even "working for someone else." Sometimes the kind of work you want to do requires being part of an organization.

There's nothing inherently bad about working for someone else.

There's nothing wrong with having a job or working for someone else.  There are plenty of people who derive satisfaction and joy from it, and that's cool.  But if that's the only way you've got to derive purpose and meaning in your life - ugh.  That is a seriously unhealthy world view and a real problem that needs to be addressed ASAP.

My uncle was a police officer for his whole life.  He is one of those folks who derived a lot of purpose and meaning from his job.  In the past eight years since he retired, he has completely gone to pieces being unable to process life without work.  He has lost and driven away friends, made life incredibly difficult for my aunt, and as far as I can tell is now borderline suicidal - refusing to seek treatment for medical conditions, and constantly talking about how he's ready to die.

Fully admit I read your post too quickly. Didn't see the "only" and totally agree with you.

[Emilyngh]

Sounds like you have a pretty limited view of what being retired means. Being retired is choosing how you spend your time vs having to do what an employer dictates. Why would that equal decline, unless you are so codependent with your work that you have no sense of self outside of it? Some people may enjoy workin for pay, in which case, of course they should continue.

I retired a year ago at age 42 and now do whatever I want every day. This mostly consists of gardening and home projects (look into the blue zone connection with gardening), but also helping my daughter with her schooling. I also have been free enough to shift plans and help both family members and neighbors when they needed it recently. Only in a society obsessed with capitalism would these activists be valued less than an office job (many of which are pretty bullshitty) bc they don’t result in a paycheck.

[flyingaway]

Saving money goes to charities? If everyone loves to work to their death, who needs charities?

[ScreamingHeadGuy]

@Skyhigh ?

This post is way too short to be one of Skyhighs posts - they are always epicly long.

I’ll admit - this was my first thought, too.

[Idlewild]

Mav, you might enjoy this short article about retirees in Japan, which speculates that the secret to a good retirement is a balanced working life with plenty of other sources of meaning and connection throughout the lifespan:

https://theconversation.com/i-spoke-to-100-japanese-seniors-and-learnt-the-secret-to-a-good-retirement-is-a-good-working-life-238571

I also work in an ageing adjacent occupation and think a lot about what makes a good old age. I think it can be a bit tricky to draw conclusions from anecdotal experience in this cohort though - people who are still working into their 70s and 80s are probably much more likely to have a ‘passion job’, to be of good health, and I expect we would see class/socioeconomic differences too.

If someone working at 75 is on average happier than someone who isn’t, that isn’t necessarily an indication for the 65yo who hates their job and just got a cancer diagnosis to keep working. It’s just more data we can use to design the right life for ourselves individually - considering what aspects of work-like activity we want to keep in out life as we get older.

Loved that linked article! Retirement as a renaissance and a time of female empowerment!

[Fru-Gal]

Mav, you might enjoy this short article about retirees in Japan, which speculates that the secret to a good retirement is a balanced working life with plenty of other sources of meaning and connection throughout the lifespan:

https://theconversation.com/i-spoke-to-100-japanese-seniors-and-learnt-the-secret-to-a-good-retirement-is-a-good-working-life-238571

I also work in an ageing adjacent occupation and think a lot about what makes a good old age. I think it can be a bit tricky to draw conclusions from anecdotal experience in this cohort though - people who are still working into their 70s and 80s are probably much more likely to have a ‘passion job’, to be of good health, and I expect we would see class/socioeconomic differences too.

If someone working at 75 is on average happier than someone who isn’t, that isn’t necessarily an indication for the 65yo who hates their job and just got a cancer diagnosis to keep working. It’s just more data we can use to design the right life for ourselves individually - considering what aspects of work-like activity we want to keep in out life as we get older.

Loved that linked article! Retirement as a renaissance and a time of female empowerment!

Wow that was great and I laughed out loud at a few points.

It also made me realize that people often forget that the relationships and hobbies they will have when FIREd cannot just sprout up quickly in fallow ground. Instead it’s more like tree planting. To bask in the shade you need to have planted that tree 20 years ago. Yes you can find community and purpose and rebuild yourself once you are FIREd but it’s easier if those things were already developed over the course of your life. And some things cannot be developed after the time has passed, such as relationships with your young kids.

[the lorax]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

[nereo]

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

Is this something you’ve been asked?!

In my previous workplace there was a lot of time spent in meeting of questionable usefulness. My current workplace has extremely efficient and effective meetings. I think most of us were just sick of all the zoom calls. It helps when the person running the meeting has both agency and accountability.

[GuitarStv]

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

Is this something you’ve been asked?!

In my previous workplace there was a lot of time spent in meeting of questionable usefulness. My current workplace has extremely efficient and effective meetings. I think most of us were just sick of all the zoom calls. It helps when the person running the meeting has both agency and accountability.

I've had enough bizarre corporate team building exercises and stupid questions to fill a whole 'Teambuilding Gone Wild' series of direct order VHS cassettes.

[Metalcat]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

That's the thing, the world of paid work is so vast that you can't generalize anything about it.

I've had jobs I absolutely love and would do for free and I've had jobs that were so miserable that when I would try to leave the house for work that I would struggle to actually force my hand to open the door to leave my house because my body was so determined not to go.

The world of paid work is vast and dynamic, as is the world of unpaid activities. The fact that something is profitable or not is not a defining property of whether or not it's enjoyable.

The world is jam packed with possible activities to fill our time, some of them happen to be profitable.

FI is all about having the freedom and autonomy to curate your personal best combination of activities, whether they generate profits or not.

[falling leaves]

I like being financially independent, but I also really like what I do for work too. I guess in that way I'm fortunate. I'm 62 and I've only ever worked a job for someone else for about 4 years and that was way back.
I love making stuff with my hands and tools, also going to different places and meeting different people and seeing my old customers.
Just this month I'll have been to 1. my late 70's customer who is a micro biologist. He's also a stone carver who meticulously carves limestone into shapes he's seen under the microscope, we always shoot the shit and set the world to rights 2. Three empty and close to a million square feet warehouses I go to check on once a month, they are brand new and empty, it's eerie walking around them. 3. Today I went to this empty store I have to check on in Vancouver's downtown East side, it's a block from East Hastings and all the fucked up misery and drug use down there, I usually walk up and down just to see the strange spectacle that it is. 4. A pet surgery hospital where they let me watch a dog having surgery while it was under anaesthesia.
I've worked for all kinds of people over the years. A pimp who's brother was in jail for murder, lots of artists and musicians, all kinds of professors, all kinds of doctors and surgeons. I've been asked to milk a goat for someone while they went on holiday, make 2 matching wooden boxes to house a husband and wife's ashes when she would pass on. One time a customer asked me if she could take pictures of me working, so I said sure, no problem...A funny thing happened that a friend of mine by coincidence happens to work for this women taking the pictures and she said to me that "hey, my boss has pictures of you pinned up in her office.. and you're working! What's that about?"  I said.. "Oh, I know who your boss is" All kinds of things over the years.
I did notice that there aren't many trades people on here? I wonder if that's because in the trades you can usually fade out of working rather than just quit cold turkey? And there's always opportunities to do a bit here and there for extra $

[spartana]

Greetings-

I work in the field of aging and can say by far those best off well in their eighties are those very engaged in a wide variety of activities from board membership, volunteering and continued paid working.  What's to be said about focusing on retiring and then seeing decline?  I can share my father retired at 55 and it was not good for his marriage ( my parents divorced) and he was not engaged....

Here's a blog from 'Blue Zones' about this... https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20241028/dan-buettner-retirement-might-not-be-that-good-of-an-idea

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose and saving money can always go towards charities/causes?

Welcome to the forum where most folks are retiring early from jobs that don't make them happy.

Retirement doesn't mean doing nothing.

And even if you are happy with your job there may be many other things you want to do in your life that a job, for many, is too restrictive and/or takes away too much of your free time to pursue other things.

These kinds of articles have been around for years. And they all seem to say the same thing: that the only life satisfaction and social satisfactions can come from a job. And without that job you'll be miserable. Of course for most here that's not the case at all and we work out an individual plan for our lives - whether we retire young or retire old, or work a job or do something(s) else.

Another issue I have with these articles is that they don't take the age of retirement into consideration -  or health (or health of loved ones) into account. Most are geared toward the 65 traditional age retiree who might quit their jobs because of illness and may not live that long anyways,  or to caretake a spouse or parent and are tied down to daily chores that wear them down. Many might die sooner or live unhappy lives. So the retirement they dreamt of might not be doable. Or they gave up a beloved job when they didn't want too. Most early retirees don't die 10 or15 years - or 20 plus ;-) -  after they retire even if they never work another day. They are probably just hitting a more normal.retirement age after a decade or 2 retired. And probably aren't depressed or unfulfilled by their retired lives. 

[spartana]

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

Even if you don't derive any meaning or purpose from work itself, don't you derive meaning and purpose from the relationships you have with your coworkers?

Nope.  None at all.

Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . . nope.  If I could only derive meaning and purpose by working for someone else, I'd consider myself deeply broken and in need of help.

I think this is a little extreme.

There are plenty of jobs that people love doing, even "working for someone else." Sometimes the kind of work you want to do requires being part of an organization.

There's nothing inherently bad about working for someone else.

There's nothing wrong with having a job or working for someone else.  There are plenty of people who derive satisfaction and joy from it, and that's cool.  But if that's the only way you've got to derive purpose and meaning in your life - ugh.  That is a seriously unhealthy world view and a real problem that needs to be addressed ASAP.

My uncle was a police officer for his whole life.  He is one of those folks who derived a lot of purpose and meaning from his job.  In the past eight years since he retired, he has completely gone to pieces being unable to process life without work.  He has lost and driven away friends, made life incredibly difficult for my aunt, and as far as I can tell is now borderline suicidal - refusing to seek treatment for medical conditions, and constantly talking about how he's ready to die.

This is very common with military veterans when they get out of the service - mostly at a pretty young age. It's not so much not working but more the dissatisfaction and adjustment to a "normal" civilian job which can seem very purposeless and bland. I had an "extremely" rough time when I got out and worked a civilian job. Not with the job which I liked, but the whole loss of of comraderie, a shared mission and purpose, and shared struggle, etc is hard to duplicate in the civilain world. I think it's the same for law enforcement people. Suicide for both is pretty common at whatever age they retire. Getting out of the military was hard for me but quitting a civilian job to retire early was very easy and very freeing!

[spartana]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

[falling leaves]

I think that in the blue zone places he talks about, people don't really do the 'I hate my job/life and can't wait to retire' thing. They see work as a bit of a part of a good life. Like a craftsman who hones his skills and ends up a bit Zen like about it all.

[deborah]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

If you have team building workshops, they do all manner of bizarre things. We were all put into one of four African animals in one - giraffe and lion were two of them - depending on our personalities. We all learnt to chop wood with our bare hands in another. Being asked what vegetable I would be sounds par for the course, although that particular bizarre thing didn’t actually happen to me.

[GuitarStv]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

If you have team building workshops, they do all manner of bizarre things. We were all put into one of four African animals in one - giraffe and lion were two of them - depending on our personalities. We all learnt to chop wood with our bare hands in another. Being asked what vegetable I would be sounds par for the course, although that particular bizarre thing didn’t actually happen to me.

Yep, at some point a very stupid person decided that making other people be stupid was the number one thing that brought them closest to others as they all shared a common zero ground at that point.  HRs around the world enthusiastically embraced this theory.  I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about the average HR employee from that.

[dcheesi]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

Reminds me of this gem:
Case of the Mondays

[Fru-Gal]

Not only did my last corporate job feature 1 million stupid meetings, people loved to use military language. I found it atrocious and ridiculous considering we were not a military or defense company.

[dandarc]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

If you have team building workshops, they do all manner of bizarre things. We were all put into one of four African animals in one - giraffe and lion were two of them - depending on our personalities. We all learnt to chop wood with our bare hands in another. Being asked what vegetable I would be sounds par for the course, although that particular bizarre thing didn’t actually happen to me.

Local school a family member of ours teaches at made national news around when school was starting and resulted in the principal, assistant principal, an assistant teacher and a janitor's employment being terminated. Idiotic team-building thing, and even more idiotic, racist skit.

[GuitarStv]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

If you have team building workshops, they do all manner of bizarre things. We were all put into one of four African animals in one - giraffe and lion were two of them - depending on our personalities. We all learnt to chop wood with our bare hands in another. Being asked what vegetable I would be sounds par for the course, although that particular bizarre thing didn’t actually happen to me.

Local school a family member of ours teaches at made national news around when school was starting and resulted in the principal, assistant principal, an assistant teacher and a janitor's employment being terminated. Idiotic team-building thing, and even more idiotic, racist skit.

To be fair, racism does bring people together and build teams very effectively.

[dandarc]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

If you have team building workshops, they do all manner of bizarre things. We were all put into one of four African animals in one - giraffe and lion were two of them - depending on our personalities. We all learnt to chop wood with our bare hands in another. Being asked what vegetable I would be sounds par for the course, although that particular bizarre thing didn’t actually happen to me.

Local school a family member of ours teaches at made national news around when school was starting and resulted in the principal, assistant principal, an assistant teacher and a janitor's employment being terminated. Idiotic team-building thing, and even more idiotic, racist skit.

To be fair, racism does bring people together and build teams very effectively.

Just don't post photos of it to the public facebook page.

[spartana]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

Reminds me of this gem:
Case of the Mondays

Haha yes! I loved that guy's "wisdom" and Office Space. I've never done traditional office work - although I eventually worked my way up to having my own office but it was the only office and I think I was suppose to do government reports or something... something...  from there but I mostly worked in the field. So ALL my real life beliefs of an office job come from watching Office Space and The Office. I know they did team building activities that were pretty stupid but fun but didn't know that it was real stuff. I can see how some thing's could be fun though. @deborah make fire would be. But don't under stand the african animal thing.

[FIRE 20/20]

OP - I read the article you linked, and Dan Buettner made a common mistake (one that skyhigh, the uber-troll of this sub-forum that others have mentioned) in incorrectly conflating two ideas.  Those concepts are "retirement" and a bundle of things like lack of meaning, reduced social network, and lack of physical activity.  Here's one example from the article, where he demonstrates the error in thinking:

“Did you ever think about that word ‘retirement’?” Buettner asked the audience. “It is that artificial punctuation that means the end of your productive life and the beginning of your life of repose. And there is a very dangerous mortality spike that year — 11,000 extra people die the year they retire.”

In his view, retirement "means the end of your productive life and the beginning of your life of repose".  Well, yeah!  If you think of retirement as an end and stop there they I can definitely see his argument.  And it's true that in the general public this idea is all too common.  However, if you read the MMM blog or you spend time on these forums you'll see that the vast, vast majority of people here don't accept the idea that retirement, especially early retirement, is just an end.  For most people here it is also a beginning.  Speaking only for myself, here are some of the beginnings I've had since FIRE 5.5 years ago:

I started to volunteer with the local symphony.  I am one of the public faces of the organization at events doing things like answering questions about season tickets and other ticket packages, providing information about upcoming events, information about the artist, and doing office work to free up the employees to do more fulfilling work that they're more qualified than I am to do.  I also drive visiting artists, often world-renowned, to various activities.  I just had a fantastic one-on-one conversation with a concert pianist I was driving to the airport about how he approaches his performance after flying in to perform a challenging concerto with a symphony orchestra and conductor he's never met.  That made my week!
I volunteer as a math tutor.  Just last night - literally 16 hours ago - I worked with a girl who got a 0% score on a math test.  After an hour of working with her she literally ran to her mom with the paper we'd been working on yelling, "look mom - I can do it now!".  That is a bajillion times more satisfying than my best day at work, and I really liked my career. 
5 years after starting as a total beginner, I finally was able to play Chopin's Nocturne in C# Minor, Op. Posth. 
I was available to help my mom recover from a hip replacement. 

I could go on and on and on, but you get the point.

After reading this forum for a decade, I can say with certainty that while the particular things I'm doing are unique, my approach to early retirement is not.  Some people here talk about retiring TO something rather than FROM something.  While I dislike that phrasing because I definitely retired from my job without any idea of the cool things I'd get to do, I did know that the same attributes that allowed me to retire at 42 would enable me to create a fulfilling retirement.  The reality of that has been better than I could have imagined. 

So yes, retirement can lead to the negatives you point to, but if you look around the blog and the forum you'll see we have a community of people here who are actively building a concept of retirement that supports a healthy, positive retirement that leads to healthier and happier people. 

[spartana]

Not only did my last corporate job feature 1 million stupid meetings, people loved to use military language. I found it atrocious and ridiculous considering we were not a military or defense company.

That was one of my big transition out of the armed forces problem - no one spoke military and I had to be "nice and polite and no one obeyed me instantantly. How rude )!  Make me wonder how @SailorSam will do once they go "civilian". Watch out world!

[Metalcat]

Not only did my last corporate job feature 1 million stupid meetings, people loved to use military language. I found it atrocious and ridiculous considering we were not a military or defense company.

That was one of my big transition out of the armed forces problem - no one spoke military and I had to be "nice and polite and no one obeyed me instantantly. How rude )!  Make me wonder how @SailorSam will do once they go "civilian". Watch out world!

This was hard for me too leaving my profession. I just spent a few days with a former mentor and it was like being able to breathe again having someone to talk to about the shit that used to consume my life. The shared traumas, dark humour, it was just SO nice.

[the lorax]

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

Is this something you’ve been asked?!

In my previous workplace there was a lot of time spent in meeting of questionable usefulness. My current workplace has extremely efficient and effective meetings. I think most of us were just sick of all the zoom calls. It helps when the person running the meeting has both agency and accountability.

yes indeed. Along with 'what poster did I have on the wall growing up' and other gems. Plus one day when I was super busy and desperate to get on with some actual work, I had to sit through half an hour of my colleagues describing what baked good they buy when they go to a bakery.

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY???????????

my blood pressure is going up just recalling all the BS :(

[the lorax]

"Even if one is 'financially free' doesn't it stand that work derives meaning and purpose"

nope, not when you have to endure hours of pointless meetings including ones where you were forced to answer dumb questions like 'what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?'.

OMG that cracked me up. In both my military job and my civilian job (both very male dominated blue collar and rough) there'd only be one correct answer: "whatever vegetable I could kick the furthest up your ass for asking such a stupid question!"

ETA: Did someone really ask that? Do they ask strange things at business meetings? In my military and then Gov job meetings it was pretty much just a recap of what each division/dept was doing or what they needed to do.

lol I wish I'd thought of that response at the time! It wouldn't have gone down well but might have been worth a warning from HR! yes my last job had quite of bit of fluffy nonsense. Me and quite a few of the other scientists really struggled with it - a few of us also experienced being told by directors we were "boring" for discussing new science/data relevant for our roles - they totally missed the point that most of us worked there because we were genuinely passionate about the issues we were supposed to be addressing. I don't think any of my other jobs were bad for that though
And that's really sad to hear re the vets experience. I hope they put in place support here to get people through that. we have particularly bad suicide rates in this country. 

[spartana]

Not only did my last corporate job feature 1 million stupid meetings, people loved to use military language. I found it atrocious and ridiculous considering we were not a military or defense company.

That was one of my big transition out of the armed forces problem - no one spoke military and I had to be "nice and polite and no one obeyed me instantantly. How rude )!  Make me wonder how @SailorSam will do once they go "civilian". Watch out world!

This was hard for me too leaving my profession. I just spent a few days with a former mentor and it was like being able to breathe again having someone to talk to about the shit that used to consume my life. The shared traumas, dark humour, it was just SO nice.

Oh yeah I can see that. Especially in your situation when you didn't voluntarily leave a beloved job but had too. That would be tough on multiple fronts. Those of us who voluntarily quit a beloved job for various "reasons" are too busy kicking ourselves about it to see how much harder it is for others.

Going down that long black pit of depression for very short while (and becoming BFFs with the girl from "The Ring") before changing my situation has left me with a much greater understanding of how bad things can get if you don't have someone to talk to who understands. One of the big reasons I do a lot of volunteer work with young Vets who are going thru that stuff once their time in the service ends. There's a syndrome for that that and something the VA is actively doing something about. I just call it the "Hurt Locker Syndrome" where nothing else matters but being back in.

ETA: In my case being FI independent of now-X DH and able to follow my RE dreams (again independent of now-X DH who had made the decision to stay in  MUCH longer then we had planned for prior to getting hitched) is the thing that pulled me out of my depression and into a new and much better work-free life at a pretty young age. 

[Metalcat]

Not only did my last corporate job feature 1 million stupid meetings, people loved to use military language. I found it atrocious and ridiculous considering we were not a military or defense company.

That was one of my big transition out of the armed forces problem - no one spoke military and I had to be "nice and polite and no one obeyed me instantantly. How rude )!  Make me wonder how @SailorSam will do once they go "civilian". Watch out world!

This was hard for me too leaving my profession. I just spent a few days with a former mentor and it was like being able to breathe again having someone to talk to about the shit that used to consume my life. The shared traumas, dark humour, it was just SO nice.

Oh yeah I can see that. Especially in your situation when you didn't voluntarily leave a beloved job but had too. That would be tough on multiple fronts. Those of us who voluntarily quit a beloved job for various "reasons" are too busy kicking ourselves about it to see how much harder it is for others. Going down that long black pit of depression for very short while (and becoming BFFs with the girl from "The Ring") before changing my situation has left me with a much greater understanding of how bad things can get if you don't have someone to talk to who understands. One of the big reasons I do a lot of volunteer work with young Vets who are going thru that stuff once their time in the service ends. There's a syndrome for that that and something the VA is actively doing something about. I just call it the "Hurt Locker Syndrome" where nothing else matters but being back in.

Yeah, I work with a few vets who've suffered TBIs and they feel like their lives are over and entire sense of self is crushed because they're so desperate to go back and grappling with the reality that they probably won't recover enough to do so.

For obvious reasons, I work really well with people who have lost a career they define themselves by but who've been forced out due to health problems.

So much of my work revolves around something I've spoken about here for years, which is the need to harness your autonomous ability to define success for yourself.

We've had so many discussions about purpose over the years here, but what people rarely grasp is how malleable the definitions of purpose can be. We're just so indoctrinated to have a capitalist definition of success and purpose that people overlook that taking care of oneself and loved ones, having good relationships, and enjoying your days fully can be an incredible purpose.

What most people lose and struggle to recover when they retire is a community, which is a HUGE part of feeling a sense of purpose. Whether you love or hate your coworkers, fellow soldiers, patients, clients, etc, they still make up a social ecosystem that is hard to adjust to losing.

And since so many folks are piss poor at making connections and developing their own communities without an infrastructure around them to provide it, this is a massive hit to a lot of retirees' well being.

This is a major driver of the crisis a lot of vets experience in dying to go back. That sense of purpose they experience is heavily driven by the sense of belonging. Doing really difficult things alongside other people is the most bonding experience there is.

A lot of retirees are entirely ill-equipped to generate the kind of shared challenges required to feel deeply connected to others in retirement, because so much of their vision of retirement is to cease engaging in difficult tasks.

So they lose their established community, they lose their ongoing source of shared challenges, which means losing their opportunities to develop a sense of community, and lose their sense of purpose. But the job itself isn't nearly as much of a source of purpose as the opportunities it provides to do difficult things with other people.

I miss a lot of my old job, but the stuff that breaks my heart is losing the bonds with people over the shared challenges. That's why it was so amazing to visit my old mentor, because we have such an intense bond over tackling insane cases together, some of which turned out very, very poorly, which just bonds us even more intensely.

Paradoxically, it's the loss of the really difficult shit that can make retirement so hard, because shared difficult shit is the fuel of human connection.

[spartana]

Not only did my last corporate job feature 1 million stupid meetings, people loved to use military language. I found it atrocious and ridiculous considering we were not a military or defense company.

That was one of my big transition out of the armed forces problem - no one spoke military and I had to be "nice and polite and no one obeyed me instantantly. How rude )!  Make me wonder how @SailorSam will do once they go "civilian". Watch out world!

This was hard for me too leaving my profession. I just spent a few days with a former mentor and it was like being able to breathe again having someone to talk to about the shit that used to consume my life. The shared traumas, dark humour, it was just SO nice.

Oh yeah I can see that. Especially in your situation when you didn't voluntarily leave a beloved job but had too. That would be tough on multiple fronts. Those of us who voluntarily quit a beloved job for various "reasons" are too busy kicking ourselves about it to see how much harder it is for others. Going down that long black pit of depression for very short while (and becoming BFFs with the girl from "The Ring") before changing my situation has left me with a much greater understanding of how bad things can get if you don't have someone to talk to who understands. One of the big reasons I do a lot of volunteer work with young Vets who are going thru that stuff once their time in the service ends. There's a syndrome for that that and something the VA is actively doing something about. I just call it the "Hurt Locker Syndrome" where nothing else matters but being back in.

Yeah, I work with a few vets who've suffered TBIs and they feel like their lives are over and entire sense of self is crushed because they're so desperate to go back and grappling with the reality that they probably won't recover enough to do so.

For obvious reasons, I work really well with people who have lost a career they define themselves by but who've been forced out due to health problems.

So much of my work revolves around something I've spoken about here for years, which is the need to harness your autonomous ability to define success for yourself.

We've had so many discussions about purpose over the years here, but what people rarely grasp is how malleable the definitions of purpose can be. We're just so indoctrinated to have a capitalist definition of success and purpose that people overlook that taking care of oneself and loved ones, having good relationships, and enjoying your days fully can be an incredible purpose.

What most people lose and struggle to recover when they retire is a community, which is a HUGE part of feeling a sense of purpose. Whether you love or hate your coworkers, fellow soldiers, patients, clients, etc, they still make up a social ecosystem that is hard to adjust to losing.

And since so many folks are piss poor at making connections and developing their own communities without an infrastructure around them to provide it, this is a massive hit to a lot of retirees' well being.

This is a major driver of the crisis a lot of vets experience in dying to go back. That sense of purpose they experience is heavily driven by the sense of belonging. Doing really difficult things alongside other people is the most bonding experience there is.

A lot of retirees are entirely ill-equipped to generate the kind of shared challenges required to feel deeply connected to others in retirement, because so much of their vision of retirement is to cease engaging in difficult tasks.

So they lose their established community, they lose their ongoing source of shared challenges, which means losing their opportunities to develop a sense of community, and lose their sense of purpose. But the job itself isn't nearly as much of a source of purpose as the opportunities it provides to do difficult things with other people.

I miss a lot of my old job, but the stuff that breaks my heart is losing the bonds with people over the shared challenges. That's why it was so amazing to visit my old mentor, because we have such an intense bond over tackling insane cases together, some of which turned out very, very poorly, which just bonds us even more intensely.

Paradoxically, it's the loss of the really difficult shit that can make retirement so hard, because shared difficult shit is the fuel of human connection.

WOW!! You totally nailed it and put it in great perspective. I'm really glad there are therapists out there like you who can actually understand and be supportive of that mindset. Back when I was hitting the bottom of my spiral I went to a therapist and he was so sexist and so deeply lacked understanding and I found myself so hopeless for the future I sat inside my dark closet weeping uncontrolaby with a gun to my head. Then I put it down, packed a backpack, quit my job, left my military spouse,  who I hadn't seen in 11 months and who was the reason I got out and took a civilian job for,  and hoped on a flight and started my FIRE journey. Within a week I was almost 100% back to normal and feeling great. 

So yeah, retirement was worth it even if my FIRE was earlier and more accidental then planned. Of course no one talks about how a job or a lifestyle can cause depression and how being FI and RE might be the fix.

Although that pesky The Ring girl followed me out and that's why I really don't have a TV or a phone ;-).

[mistymoney]

Not only did my last corporate job feature 1 million stupid meetings, people loved to use military language. I found it atrocious and ridiculous considering we were not a military or defense company.

That was one of my big transition out of the armed forces problem - no one spoke military and I had to be "nice and polite and no one obeyed me instantantly. How rude )!  Make me wonder how @SailorSam will do once they go "civilian". Watch out world!

This was hard for me too leaving my profession. I just spent a few days with a former mentor and it was like being able to breathe again having someone to talk to about the shit that used to consume my life. The shared traumas, dark humour, it was just SO nice.

Oh yeah I can see that. Especially in your situation when you didn't voluntarily leave a beloved job but had too. That would be tough on multiple fronts. Those of us who voluntarily quit a beloved job for various "reasons" are too busy kicking ourselves about it to see how much harder it is for others. Going down that long black pit of depression for very short while (and becoming BFFs with the girl from "The Ring") before changing my situation has left me with a much greater understanding of how bad things can get if you don't have someone to talk to who understands. One of the big reasons I do a lot of volunteer work with young Vets who are going thru that stuff once their time in the service ends. There's a syndrome for that that and something the VA is actively doing something about. I just call it the "Hurt Locker Syndrome" where nothing else matters but being back in.

Yeah, I work with a few vets who've suffered TBIs and they feel like their lives are over and entire sense of self is crushed because they're so desperate to go back and grappling with the reality that they probably won't recover enough to do so.

For obvious reasons, I work really well with people who have lost a career they define themselves by but who've been forced out due to health problems.

So much of my work revolves around something I've spoken about here for years, which is the need to harness your autonomous ability to define success for yourself.

We've had so many discussions about purpose over the years here, but what people rarely grasp is how malleable the definitions of purpose can be. We're just so indoctrinated to have a capitalist definition of success and purpose that people overlook that taking care of oneself and loved ones, having good relationships, and enjoying your days fully can be an incredible purpose.

What most people lose and struggle to recover when they retire is a community, which is a HUGE part of feeling a sense of purpose. Whether you love or hate your coworkers, fellow soldiers, patients, clients, etc, they still make up a social ecosystem that is hard to adjust to losing.

And since so many folks are piss poor at making connections and developing their own communities without an infrastructure around them to provide it, this is a massive hit to a lot of retirees' well being.

This is a major driver of the crisis a lot of vets experience in dying to go back. That sense of purpose they experience is heavily driven by the sense of belonging. Doing really difficult things alongside other people is the most bonding experience there is.

A lot of retirees are entirely ill-equipped to generate the kind of shared challenges required to feel deeply connected to others in retirement, because so much of their vision of retirement is to cease engaging in difficult tasks.

So they lose their established community, they lose their ongoing source of shared challenges, which means losing their opportunities to develop a sense of community, and lose their sense of purpose. But the job itself isn't nearly as much of a source of purpose as the opportunities it provides to do difficult things with other people.

I miss a lot of my old job, but the stuff that breaks my heart is losing the bonds with people over the shared challenges. That's why it was so amazing to visit my old mentor, because we have such an intense bond over tackling insane cases together, some of which turned out very, very poorly, which just bonds us even more intensely.

Paradoxically, it's the loss of the really difficult shit that can make retirement so hard, because shared difficult shit is the fuel of human connection.

WOW!! You totally nailed it and put it in great perspective. I'm really glad there are therapists out there like you who can actually understand and be supportive of that mindset. Back when I was hitting the bottom of my spiral I went to a therapist and he was so sexist and so deeply lacked understanding and I found myself so hopeless for the future I sat inside my dark closet weeping uncontrolaby with a gun to my head. Then I put it down, packed a backpack, quit my job, left my military spouse,  who I hadn't seen in 11 months and who was the reason I got out and took a civilian job for,  and hoped on a flight and started my FIRE journey. Within a week I was almost 100% back to normal and feeling great. 

So yeah, retirement was worth it even if my FIRE was earlier and more accidental then planned. Of course no one talks about how a job or a lifestyle can cause depression and how being FI and RE might be the fix.

Although that pesky The Ring girl followed me out and that's why I really don't have a TV or a phone ;-).

This hurt to read, and I'm so glad you are in a better place {{{hugs}}}.

I feel like I am grappling with my own demons, and I hope I am able to bounce back, at least a little bit. I'm old, and I think it gets more difficult. Earlier this year, I had a great time at a conference with coworkers, and I really need to remind myself that I can't delay retirement just because my connections to coworkers are the best social outlet I have right now.

More specifically to the OP, I think the longer you delay your entry into your post-work life, the worse you will do. We kind of grasp onto the life we have, the connections we have at work, like stockolm syndrome.

It doesn't mean its what we need, it means we have been warped and twisted to best fit into that space and the longer we stay there the more difficult it is going to be to straighten out and get to be the person we were trying to be before that. In some cases, it is too late to go back, but you still need to fashion something of choice out of your life.

People who give up and can't get a life together and think going back to work is the answer are missing the forest through the trees. The longer you are in there the less time you have at the next step in your life.

[Metalcat]

[WOW!! You totally nailed it and put it in great perspective. I'm really glad there are therapists out there like you who can actually understand and be supportive of that mindset. Back when I was hitting the bottom of my spiral I went to a therapist and he was so sexist and so deeply lacked understanding and I found myself so hopeless for the future I sat inside my dark closet weeping uncontrolaby with a gun to my head. Then I put it down, packed a backpack, quit my job, left my military spouse,  who I hadn't seen in 11 months and who was the reason I got out and took a civilian job for,  and hoped on a flight and started my FIRE journey. Within a week I was almost 100% back to normal and feeling great. 

So yeah, retirement was worth it even if my FIRE was earlier and more accidental then planned. Of course no one talks about how a job or a lifestyle can cause depression and how being FI and RE might be the fix.

Although that pesky The Ring girl followed me out and that's why I really don't have a TV or a phone ;-).

Yeah...most of my clients have had some pretty bad experiences with therapists, that's usually how they end up with me in the first place. And vets who've had bad experiences? It's kind of a miracle that they ever try again.

I've always loved working with vets, it's the only population whose humour is as dark as mine, and appreciates profanity as much as I do.

[spartana]

Not only did my last corporate job feature 1 million stupid meetings, people loved to use military language. I found it atrocious and ridiculous considering we were not a military or defense company.

That was one of my big transition out of the armed forces problem - no one spoke military and I had to be "nice and polite and no one obeyed me instantantly. How rude )!  Make me wonder how @SailorSam will do once they go "civilian". Watch out world!

This was hard for me too leaving my profession. I just spent a few days with a former mentor and it was like being able to breathe again having someone to talk to about the shit that used to consume my life. The shared traumas, dark humour, it was just SO nice.

Oh yeah I can see that. Especially in your situation when you didn't voluntarily leave a beloved job but had too. That would be tough on multiple fronts. Those of us who voluntarily quit a beloved job for various "reasons" are too busy kicking ourselves about it to see how much harder it is for others. Going down that long black pit of depression for very short while (and becoming BFFs with the girl from "The Ring") before changing my situation has left me with a much greater understanding of how bad things can get if you don't have someone to talk to who understands. One of the big reasons I do a lot of volunteer work with young Vets who are going thru that stuff once their time in the service ends. There's a syndrome for that that and something the VA is actively doing something about. I just call it the "Hurt Locker Syndrome" where nothing else matters but being back in.

Yeah, I work with a few vets who've suffered TBIs and they feel like their lives are over and entire sense of self is crushed because they're so desperate to go back and grappling with the reality that they probably won't recover enough to do so.

For obvious reasons, I work really well with people who have lost a career they define themselves by but who've been forced out due to health problems.

So much of my work revolves around something I've spoken about here for years, which is the need to harness your autonomous ability to define success for yourself.

We've had so many discussions about purpose over the years here, but what people rarely grasp is how malleable the definitions of purpose can be. We're just so indoctrinated to have a capitalist definition of success and purpose that people overlook that taking care of oneself and loved ones, having good relationships, and enjoying your days fully can be an incredible purpose.

What most people lose and struggle to recover when they retire is a community, which is a HUGE part of feeling a sense of purpose. Whether you love or hate your coworkers, fellow soldiers, patients, clients, etc, they still make up a social ecosystem that is hard to adjust to losing.

And since so many folks are piss poor at making connections and developing their own communities without an infrastructure around them to provide it, this is a massive hit to a lot of retirees' well being.

This is a major driver of the crisis a lot of vets experience in dying to go back. That sense of purpose they experience is heavily driven by the sense of belonging. Doing really difficult things alongside other people is the most bonding experience there is.

A lot of retirees are entirely ill-equipped to generate the kind of shared challenges required to feel deeply connected to others in retirement, because so much of their vision of retirement is to cease engaging in difficult tasks.

So they lose their established community, they lose their ongoing source of shared challenges, which means losing their opportunities to develop a sense of community, and lose their sense of purpose. But the job itself isn't nearly as much of a source of purpose as the opportunities it provides to do difficult things with other people.

I miss a lot of my old job, but the stuff that breaks my heart is losing the bonds with people over the shared challenges. That's why it was so amazing to visit my old mentor, because we have such an intense bond over tackling insane cases together, some of which turned out very, very poorly, which just bonds us even more intensely.

Paradoxically, it's the loss of the really difficult shit that can make retirement so hard, because shared difficult shit is the fuel of human connection.

WOW!! You totally nailed it and put it in great perspective. I'm really glad there are therapists out there like you who can actually understand and be supportive of that mindset. Back when I was hitting the bottom of my spiral I went to a therapist and he was so sexist and so deeply lacked understanding and I found myself so hopeless for the future I sat inside my dark closet weeping uncontrolaby with a gun to my head. Then I put it down, packed a backpack, quit my job, left my military spouse,  who I hadn't seen in 11 months and who was the reason I got out and took a civilian job for,  and hoped on a flight and started my FIRE journey. Within a week I was almost 100% back to normal and feeling great. 

So yeah, retirement was worth it even if my FIRE was earlier and more accidental then planned. Of course no one talks about how a job or a lifestyle can cause depression and how being FI and RE might be the fix.

Although that pesky The Ring girl followed me out and that's why I really don't have a TV or a phone ;-).

This hurt to read, and I'm so glad you are in a better place {{{hugs}}}.

I feel like I am grappling with my own demons, and I hope I am able to bounce back, at least a little bit. I'm old, and I think it gets more difficult. Earlier this year, I had a great time at a conference with coworkers, and I really need to remind myself that I can't delay retirement just because my connections to coworkers are the best social outlet I have right now.

More specifically to the OP, I think the longer you delay your entry into your post-work life, the worse you will do. We kind of grasp onto the life we have, the connections we have at work, like stockolm syndrome.

It doesn't mean its what we need, it means we have been warped and twisted to best fit into that space and the longer we stay there the more difficult it is going to be to straighten out and get to be the person we were trying to be before that. In some cases, it is too late to go back, but you still need to fashion something of choice out of your life.

People who give up and can't get a life together and think going back to work is the answer are missing the forest through the trees. The longer you are in there the less time you have at the next step in your life.

Thanks @mistymoney . Fortunately it was long ago and fairly short lived - although I was really unhappy for about 5 years after I got out of the service due to the many reasons already cited even though I had a civilian job I really liked. It was just a slow spiral down until the last year before I FIREd.  It was less about getting out of the service when I didn't really want too then, and more about my expectations of life after I got out and the DH deciding not to retire early out of the service himself when he would hit 38 and could retire. We had planned to each retire at 38 before we married (at the old age of 23) and him changing his mind a couple of years before that threw me for a loop badly. I was only 36 then and had so many plans for my (our) FIRE lives and to see them kind of crumble was hard - especially when I had given up something I loved so we could FIRE together. But he loved what he did so I don't blame him. FIRE for me as a single person has been great (although I'm now with another FIREee I'm totally crazy about) and so it all worked out great in the end.

But I do agree that the older you are the harder it might be to retire happily if you are so embedded in your job and the shared social circle that job provides. FIREing in my 30s meant I had a lot of opportunities to connect with tons of people and was healthy, fit and young and unemcumbered enough to do most things (even dreaded type 3 fun!). I think a normal age retiree, unless they have a lot of connections and activities already in progress, or are extroverts who don't shy away from social things, it could be challenging. Enjoying your own company helps a lot too. I spend a lot of time alone and find that to be really fun.