The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: Skyhigh on January 13, 2019, 10:59:51 PM
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I endured a poor performing career that forced me into a FIRE mentality early on in my life in order to survive. As a result, my career goals are largely unfulfilled. I spent my 20's and 30's living a minimalist lifestyle and perfected the art of living outside the rat race in order to keep my career dreams alive. Eventually, I built a business and real estate portfolio that sustain us quite well. As a result, I do not have to pursue my career anymore but it feels like a wasted life. I spent my under-employed youth burning my days skiing, traveling, camping, and hiking to my heart's content. I worked seasonal jobs at ski resorts, built a cabin in Alaska, and worked as a fishing guide in the summer. The entire time all I wanted to do was to stick my head into the noose of corporate America but could not make it happen for myself. Now that my industry has recovered there are opportunities however I am too old and have a family to consider.
I am very thankful for the skills I have learned, and the resources FIRE has provided. I have much to share, however, I wish I had a chance to have accomplished my career dreams. Retirement is an uncomfortable thought for me. It makes me sad. I am not interested in typical retirement activities. I wish I could get past it. I have no other choice. FIRE feels like unused potential.
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Sounds like a youth well spent to me.
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No one is making you retire. Keep working if you don't like retirement.
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You have experienced so much, but your expressed dream sounds so...traditional. As if it has not evolved or matured along with your experience. Is it the sense of experience you think you are missing? As in, you want to actually see how you would decorate a cubicle? Or is it contribution? Because, if you were willing to explore the possibilities, there are a lot of ways to contribute beyond a typical rat race office job. Volunteer. Consult. Teach. You are where you are, and there are a lot more ways to be productive than to go through an Indeed job search. Make use of them, since you have a lot less riding on this, financially, than others. That is a distinct advantage.
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... my career goals are largely unfulfilled ... Eventually, I built a business and real estate portfolio that sustain us quite well ... it feels like a wasted life ... The entire time all I wanted to do was to stick my head into the noose of corporate America but could not make it happen for myself ... however I am too old and have a family to consider.
... I wish I had a chance to have accomplished my career dreams. Retirement is an uncomfortable thought for me. It makes me sad. I am not interested in typical retirement activities. I wish I could get past it. I have no other choice ...
I think counseling might be able to help you either: accept your current position with a more positive outlook - or - help you work with the conditions you find yourself in and re-align the possible career dreams that can be still realized.
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... my career goals are largely unfulfilled ... Eventually, I built a business and real estate portfolio that sustain us quite well ... it feels like a wasted life ... The entire time all I wanted to do was to stick my head into the noose of corporate America but could not make it happen for myself ... however I am too old and have a family to consider.
... I wish I had a chance to have accomplished my career dreams. Retirement is an uncomfortable thought for me. It makes me sad. I am not interested in typical retirement activities. I wish I could get past it. I have no other choice ...
I think counseling might be able to help you either: accept your current position with a more positive outlook - or - help you work with the conditions you find yourself in and re-align the possible career dreams that can be still realized.
I agree with FreshelyFIREd and reeshau, in that what you're describing sound less like "unfulfilled dreams" and more like existential angst. What is it that these career goals represent to you? What do you think they would give you that you don't already have in your life? Are these feelings just part of the relatively normal mid-life realizations that certain things are never going to happen in your life, coming to recognize your own (and life's) limitations, finding that (some of) the things you thought would be meaningful really aren't, and having to find new things/perspectives in order to be fulfilled in the second half of your life? I believe this is a normal, developmental process. Therapy or counseling is certainly not the only way to explore these things, but it can be very helpful.
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Perhaps its a simple as focusing on trying and doing the things your still capable of doing as you seem to have many skills, as opposed to focusing on the things you cant change in your life. Seems to me you lived a great life so far that many would love to have lived. No reason to retire with skills you have.
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What does a traditional career have to do with traditional retirement?
If you are uninterested in typical retirement activities do not participate in them.
Seems simple enough.
As for regrets. Fuck 'em. They're not particularly useful feelings to guide your actions.
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I'm really not getting what your issue is...?
If you want to work, then work. There are countless opportunities to work in amazing ways, especially if you don't really need money.
Unless, are you saying you want some traditional high-pressure, long hours corporate job just so that you can prove that you can climb the corporate ladder?
If so...whyyyyyyyyyy?
If that's not it, then why not start consulting? Volunteer your professional level skills to a non profit? Just start networking and see what bubbles up.
If you have a valuable skill, then I guarantee there are people out there who will want to work with you.
Have fun with this. Your life sounds fun, why do you sound stressed. I seriously don't get it.
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Do your "career dreams" of "sticking your head in the noose of corporate America" have any basis in reality or are you just pining for some vague achievements you feel you haven't reached? Do you have friends or acquaintances who spent thirty years in that corporate life who love it? I'm sure there are some people like that, but there are probably many more who lived that life and didn't. If you worked as a fishing guide, I would bet you guided a lot of well-paid corporate types with plenty of money, but only a week or two of vacation every year. I would be willing to bet that many of them told you they dreamed of trading places with you, or at least a retirement in which they'd spend a lot more time fishing.
If you don't want to retire, don't. Life is short. Find ways to do the things that make you happy, especially now that you've reached a stage where money isn't a significant issue.
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I do have friends who were able to achieve their career goals who are now disappointed with their accomplishments. I don't have the heart of an adventurer, however, and was (am)uncomfortable the entire time. I envied those with corporate badges, parking spaces, structured retirement plans and the like. Somehow I instinctively knew that there was a better way and unwillingly followed that.
Not only do I miss a career that never really happened but am melancholy for what feels like a wasted life. My mothers family were all self-reliant small business owners and existed in a world of their own choosing outside corporate America. My fathers family were all accomplished Navy officers. They had pictures of grand ships on their walls, told exciting stories, and knew the satisfaction of professional accomplishments and accolades. Theirs was a life of servitude and sacrifice.
I wanted a life that was similar to my fathers but found myself sliding down the path of FIRE. I don't share in the satisfaction that comes from the abillity to do nothing with my life. My fathers relatives however, all had broken relationsihps, few to no children, suffered from alchoholism and stress related ailments. I supppose the grass is always greener. I wish I had the chance to pursue my career dreams.
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I had a vaguely similar youth spent in college and graduate school, slacking off, partying and traveling the world for field work and conferences. It was my "retirement" years while I was in great shape. I finally grew up and graduated and got a real job at age 30. I've been working a bit over 20 years and we are well past FI so frugality belt is loosening, but work is fun so I'll keep it up. I've gotten most of the travel and partying out of my system ages ago so retirement seems like sort of aimless volunteer or me-focused nonsense.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
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I do have friends who were able to achieve their career goals who are now disappointed with their accomplishments. I don't have the heart of an adventurer, however, and was (am)uncomfortable the entire time. I envied those with corporate badges, parking spaces, structured retirement plans and the like. Somehow I instinctively knew that there was a better way and unwillingly followed that.
Not only do I miss a career that never really happened but am melancholy for what feels like a wasted life. My mothers family were all self-reliant small business owners and existed in a world of their own choosing outside corporate America. My fathers family were all accomplished Navy officers. They had pictures of grand ships on their walls, told exciting stories, and knew the satisfaction of professional accomplishments and accolades. Theirs was a life of servitude and sacrifice.
I wanted a life that was similar to my fathers but found myself sliding down the path of FIRE. I don't share in the satisfaction that comes from the abillity to do nothing with my life. My fathers relatives however, all had broken relationsihps, few to no children, suffered from alchoholism and stress related ailments. I supppose the grass is always greener. I wish I had the chance to pursue my career dreams.
Dude, seriously...you need to find some resources to learn how to live a more fulfilled and grateful life.
If you can't be happy with what you have now, a corporate parking pass sure as hell won't make you happy. Literally nothing that you are saying that you are missing is the stuff that makes people happy.
If you want a corporate job, then go ahead and work in the corporate world, you can easily do this on a part time basis if you really want to. You may not be able to waltz into it, but Iif it's what you really want, then you can eeeaaaasily make this happen with a bit of leg work.
The hard truth is though: you will NEVER be happy until you can learn to be happy with what you have. As it stands, you may enter the corporate world and then suddenly become envious of corporate people with executive titles and expense accounts. Then if you were exec level, you might be envious of those ultra execs who fly around in private planes, and some of those ultra execs might envy people who have less demanding careers and more time with their families, and on and on...
There's always something or someone to envy, and I guarantee that your life is envied by many, so take some time to embrace how overwhelmingly fortunate you are.
If once you learn how incredibly lucky you are and you feel thoroughly grateful for everything you have, then at that point, start looking at what you may want to add to your life/career in order to add richness and satisfaction.
I agree, we all must become satisfied with what we have. My issue is that by accepting what we get feels like giving up. It feels like a failure. It seems like taking the easy road. Most of what I do now to support myself I could have done right out of high school. My potential is wasted. The lack of professional accomplishment is the opportunity cost of FIRE.
It feels like I never got started in life before taking the easy road.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
There are many, many examples of people on this forum FIRE-ing so they can contribute and accomplish MORE.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
If you feel this way (which is your right), why do you bother belonging to a community like this one? Wouldn't it be more productive to stick with corporate ambitions and find a different online community catering to that? I am not interested in fishing or motocross, so I don't belong to those forums (although if other people do, that's their prerogative).
Surely you aren't trying to convince the rest of us that we should think like you do. Because the vast majority of us who are FIREd actually do enjoy our lives and don't have your issues.
No one here is forcing you to FIRE. You are capable of exercising free will in this regard.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
There are many, many examples of people on this forum FIRE-ing so they can contribute and accomplish MORE.
As an individual, I can buy a canoe and paddle the lake. As a member of an organization, I could command an ocean liner. More is relative. I could take more time off. I could go back to filling my days skiing, however, it does not feel like more to me.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
There are many, many examples of people on this forum FIRE-ing so they can contribute and accomplish MORE.
As an individual, I can buy a canoe and paddle the lake. As a member of an organization, I could command an ocean liner. More is relative. I could take more time off. I could go back to filling my days skiing, however, it does not feel like more to me.
Right but that's not what others are necessarily doing when they FIRE. It seems you are constraining yourself to one or few options rather than seeing FIRE as providing greater opportunity not lesser.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
If you feel this way (which is your right), why do you bother belonging to a community like this one? Wouldn't it be more productive to stick with corporate ambitions and find a different online community catering to that? I am not interested in fishing or motocross, so I don't belong to those forums (although if other people do, that's their prerogative).
Surely you aren't trying to convince the rest of us that we should think like you do. Because the vast majority of us who are FIREd actually do enjoy our lives and don't have your issues.
No one here is forcing you to FIRE. You are capable of exercising free will in this regard.
I have a lot of experience with FIRE and believe that I have information to share with others as how to get here. Others here who have walked a career path may have some information to help me to find peace with this life.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
There are many, many examples of people on this forum FIRE-ing so they can contribute and accomplish MORE.
As an individual, I can buy a canoe and paddle the lake. As a member of an organization, I could command an ocean liner. More is relative. I could take more time off. I could go back to filling my days skiing, however, it does not feel like more to me.
Right but that's not what others are necessarily doing when they FIRE. It seems you are constraining yourself to one or few options rather than seeing FIRE as providing greater opportunity not lesser.
There is an opportunity cost to FIRE that should be examined.
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Sounds like you spent your life fulfilling yourself, a lifetime making yourself happy, a lifetime enriching yourself... instead of fulfilling/helping other people.
Maybe this is why you feel so empty?
Exactly, to what end does it serve this existence to spend your days in idle self-indulgent pursuits?
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I do have friends who were able to achieve their career goals who are now disappointed with their accomplishments. I don't have the heart of an adventurer, however, and was (am)uncomfortable the entire time. I envied those with corporate badges, parking spaces, structured retirement plans and the like. Somehow I instinctively knew that there was a better way and unwillingly followed that.
Not only do I miss a career that never really happened but am melancholy for what feels like a wasted life. My mothers family were all self-reliant small business owners and existed in a world of their own choosing outside corporate America. My fathers family were all accomplished Navy officers. They had pictures of grand ships on their walls, told exciting stories, and knew the satisfaction of professional accomplishments and accolades. Theirs was a life of servitude and sacrifice.
I wanted a life that was similar to my fathers but found myself sliding down the path of FIRE. I don't share in the satisfaction that comes from the abillity to do nothing with my life. My fathers relatives however, all had broken relationsihps, few to no children, suffered from alchoholism and stress related ailments. I supppose the grass is always greener. I wish I had the chance to pursue my career dreams.
Dude, seriously...you need to find some resources to learn how to live a more fulfilled and grateful life.
If you can't be happy with what you have now, a corporate parking pass sure as hell won't make you happy. Literally nothing that you are saying that you are missing is the stuff that makes people happy.
If you want a corporate job, then go ahead and work in the corporate world, you can easily do this on a part time basis if you really want to. You may not be able to waltz into it, but Iif it's what you really want, then you can eeeaaaasily make this happen with a bit of leg work.
The hard truth is though: you will NEVER be happy until you can learn to be happy with what you have. As it stands, you may enter the corporate world and then suddenly become envious of corporate people with executive titles and expense accounts. Then if you were exec level, you might be envious of those ultra execs who fly around in private planes, and some of those ultra execs might envy people who have less demanding careers and more time with their families, and on and on...
There's always something or someone to envy, and I guarantee that your life is envied by many, so take some time to embrace how overwhelmingly fortunate you are.
If once you learn how incredibly lucky you are and you feel thoroughly grateful for everything you have, then at that point, start looking at what you may want to add to your life/career in order to add richness and satisfaction.
I agree, we all must become satisfied with what we have. My issue is that by accepting what we get feels like giving up. It feels like a failure. It seems like taking the easy road. Most of what I do now to support myself I could have done right out of high school. My potential is wasted. The lack of professional accomplishment is the opportunity cost of FIRE.
It feels like I never got started in life before taking the easy road.
So...?
FIRE has nothing to do with what you choose to do in life. If you want to accomplish more in the way of professional work, then go ahead and accomplished more. No one is stopping you.
MMM did his best work after "retiring" and so can you if you want to. I truly don't understand what you are complaining about. Is someone holding a gun to your head and saying that you aren't allowed to do any more work of any value??
I personally completely understand the drive to do meaningful work, for some of us it's critical for happiness. However, no one is stopping you from doing whatever you want.
My point is that you need to get over whatever weird hangups you have about your career history and move on with learning to be grateful and happy for what you have otherwise no type of work will ever actually satisfy you.
Get your head in a good place, then figure out what you want to do, and then do that thing.
Seriously, what on earth is stopping you?
FIRE isn't about not working, it's about having the freedom to do whatever you want to do. If that's work, then fucking work. Why not?
Like PP suggested, maybe spend some of your abundant free time volunteering. Not only will it help give you some perspective and gratitude, it will allow you to use whatever talents you have, be as useful as you want to be, and will network you with other amazing people who are doing some serious high level stuff that you might be able to network your way into.
If you do actually have valuable skills, a non profit is guaranteed a good avenue for you to explore because they will take whatever you have to offer.
If you don't want to waste your potential then don't bloody waste it. Just do something.
I have spent many years volunteering for things.
What is stopping me is that I am too old. Now that there is opportunity my industry has moved on to the next generation. These days my hobby is going to job fairs and applying for dream careers that my generation is now considered to be too old for. I still try though, and have two more job fairs on the schedule this winter. It is incredibly unlikely that I will succeed but it feels better to try anyway.
My point is that by cutting ones potential early, either by choice or force, it has a potential consequence that needs to be considered. I can't get those days back.
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Sounds like you spent your life fulfilling yourself, a lifetime making yourself happy, a lifetime enriching yourself... instead of fulfilling/helping other people.
Maybe this is why you feel so empty?
Exactly, to what end does it serve this existence to spend your days in idle self-indulgent pursuits?
It beats spending my days in a cubicle in worthless, corporate-indulgent, pursuits.
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Sounds like you spent your life fulfilling yourself, a lifetime making yourself happy, a lifetime enriching yourself... instead of fulfilling/helping other people.
Maybe this is why you feel so empty?
Exactly, to what end does it serve this existence to spend your days in idle self-indulgent pursuits?
It beats spending my days in a cubicle in worthless, corporate-indulgent, pursuits.
Perhaps,,,
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I have spent many years volunteering for things.
What is stopping me is that I am too old. Now that there is opportunity my industry has moved on to the next generation. These days my hobby is going to job fairs and applying for dream careers that my generation is now considered to be too old for. I still try though, and have two more job fairs on the schedule this winter. It is incredibly unlikely that I will succeed but it feels better to try anyway.
My point is that by cutting ones potential early, either by choice or force, it has a potential consequence that needs to be considered. I can't get those days back.
I hear what you are saying and can relate. A few years after getting my first corporate job I was already coasting, I could have comfortably stayed at that company for the next 20-30 years doing the bare minimum and have a very traditional corporate drone career. However, like you are feeling now I felt I needed more of a challenge and see I could work in a more fast pace industry. So I tried to get a job in financial technology, I applied to dozens of jobs, went on a lot of interviews only to be rejected by all of them in the beginning. It went for about two years until I finally landed one. I stayed there for a few years increasing my salary and title, until it dawned on me that it was never going to be enough and I did not want to end up like my bosses. Who worked 60-80 weeks, were having martial issues, health, issues, drug addictions, ect. What sealed the deal for me was when my CEO said in a meeting, "this is 2008, there is no such thing as a vacation." when one of his VPs was not present for a meeting right before Thanksgiving.
So like you said the grass is always greener on the other side, but I get that you still at least wanted to experience it. Like other have said, try and make peace with your current situation and your past, however that doesn't mean you have to give up. You only fail if you give up. As long as you keep trying, by that I mean be realistic about your goals, which means you might have to adjust your original goals, hopefully you can be at peace and content that you never gave up.
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I think some of what you're feeling is something a lot of people go through at some point in adult life.
I am also someone who is not "living to my potential." Goals I had early on fell by the wayside due to external circumstances. The family life I had always envisioned didn't materialize the way I thought it would. I'm now in a place in my own life where both my working and personal days are nearly the opposite of what I'd thought they would be at this age. I actually currently have a friend doing something that used to be an attainable goal of mine and am surprised by the intensity of envy I've felt.
I've also gone through emotional downturns where I feel something akin to having just missed the Right Path. More than once in the past ten years.
Your comments sound as though you attribute how you feel entirely to being FIREd. Perhaps that's true. Perhaps it's just the point in your life where you'd be questioning past choices anyway. I think bringing this up in the context of "anyone else feeling this?" is appropriate for this forum, and it's been said many times that FIRE is not an answer to fulfillment but a means.
The question now for you, then, is where do you go from here? There are loads of people who face the latter part of life under different circumstances than they'd planned. It's up to you to find a way forward that resonates with you and fills your needs.
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I am wondering how old you are. Whatever the age is, google "people who did great things after __"
I teach graduate professional school. I am always thrilled when I have a retiree in the class (and I mean someone who retired at ages 55-65). They usually go on to have great careers because they have the maturity that inspires confidence.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
There are many, many examples of people on this forum FIRE-ing so they can contribute and accomplish MORE.
As an individual, I can buy a canoe and paddle the lake. As a member of an organization, I could command an ocean liner. More is relative. I could take more time off. I could go back to filling my days skiing, however, it does not feel like more to me.
Right but that's not what others are necessarily doing when they FIRE. It seems you are constraining yourself to one or few options rather than seeing FIRE as providing greater opportunity not lesser.
There is an opportunity cost to FIRE that should be examined.
It is not unique to FIRE, there is an opportunity cost to any choice. FIRE buys you more options so arguably it is a lesser cost.
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I could be completely off base, but what I'm reading is you have been a pretty successful entrepreneur, but you feel like you've missed out on the external validation of a military career or the corporate workplace.
Yes, FIRE seems like the easy way out of contribution and accomplishment.
Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time in the corporate world, I can tell you that corporate life doesn't come with a sense of contribution and accomplishment. I think many here would agree.
Creating a 40-slide PowerPoint deck gives me zero sense of fulfillment.
Sitting in meetings for 6 hours every day doesn't help me feel like I've accomplished anything.
Watching our CEO's speeches does not lead to feeling like our company contributes to the greater good, no matter how much Kool-Aid they serve at the meetings.
I would estimate that only about 5% to 10% of my corporate work leaves me feeling like I have made some sort of difference. But hell, it pays well and enables me to do other stuff that matters to me.
I don't mean to minimize your angst, but I'm sad for you because you feel you've missed out on some significant piece of your life by not actively participating in corporate bullshit. Honestly, most of us are here on this forum because we've had our fill of it. You've accomplished a lot in your life, and I hope you get to a place of comfort with it.
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[quote author=Skyhigh
I have spent many years volunteering for things.
What is stopping me is that I am too old. Now that there is opportunity my industry has moved on to the next generation. These days my hobby is going to job fairs and applying for dream careers that my generation is now considered to be too old for. I still try though, and have two more job fairs on the schedule this winter. It is incredibly unlikely that I will succeed but it feels better to try anyway.
My point is that by cutting ones potential early, either by choice or force, it has a potential consequence that needs to be considered. I can't get those days back.
If you have potential and marketable skills then you should be able to network your way into the kind of work that you want to do. Your age also shouldn't be a hindrance either.
Again, you may not be able to saunter into a full time professional corporate job, but as I said, if you have the skill, then someone out there should be happy to have you do it, especially if you aren't forced to make a living off of it.
That's why I mention non profit work because so many of them can't afford proper professional level services and will happily let you offer your skills. I've seen people gain incredible experience and exposure and build careers through doing work with charities that no corporation would actually hire them for at the beginning.
Have you approached the non profits that you volunteer with and offered professional level work? Have you networked through your volunteer activities with the executive board members? Those are typically amazing connections to make as most major non-profits have huge hitters on their boards.
Sure, you may have to think outside the box, but you have every single opportunity for fulfillment available to you.
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I have made an art out of networking, going to job fairs, and volunteering. My age is a major restriction keeping me from my dream. Another issue is that if I were to move from my present location my business and family would suffer. I can't risk the security I have for the thin promise of achieving my career goals.
If I were not blessed with FIRE my career would be the priority. The family would move.
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Interesting thread Skyhigh. It seems much has been said and you seem to have a response for everyone that justifies staying your current mental loop. That's ok. I'm not dissing. But maybe you should notice that for yourself.
I would say it looks like you are dealing with a lack of contentment with life. Or, maybe, a sense of emptiness which can come when a person achieves all their goals and doesn't know what to "do next." For my own part, I felt that way a few years back when I was basically FI and had gained all kinds of worldy "achievements." But, what I learned is that satisfaction doesn't come from external accolades and achievements. It took me longer than it should have to come to that conclusion, I think.
If you've got time, maybe you should try asking what other human beings throughout history, time, culture and geography have done to find peace of mind. For me, that was reading books on spirituality and searching for common themes across history, time, culture and geography (i.e. searching for the perennial philosophy).
Good luck to you and, if you haven't noticed by all the very well-intentioned and thoughtful responses, you are not alone.
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As an individual, I can buy a canoe and paddle the lake. As a member of an organization, I could command an ocean liner. More is relative. I could take more time off. I could go back to filling my days skiing, however, it does not feel like more to me.
No you couldn't. Commanding an ocean liner is definitely cool (even when it is stressful), but you are looking at the rewards and not seeing the work. Every commander has countless hours of numbing paperwork in his/her past, years of dealing with shitty officers and bureaucrats. Innumerable moments of holding their tongues when some higher up spouts imbecilities that makes their hair stand on end.
What you are saying is that you were born in Brazil but want to be a ski instructor without ever putting a pair on, and by the way, also hating cold weather. You want to be the guy who is a real estate entrepreneur starting from humble beginnings but who does not know one side of a nail from another and hates manual labor. You want to go straight to the top but that is not how stuff works.
The accomplishments are cool, but you did not have the inclination for that life and in order to accomplish those things you need to love the stuff, to live and breathe numbers or law or marketing or whatever it is that allows you to look at a computer screen for hours on end while you split ever narrower strands of hair. What is more, that reward is uncertain since very few people get the accolades (or if many get them, they ain't that special to start with). You said it right - the grass is always greener (but it ain't). Let me put it face-punchedly: you would not get the accolades because you did not have the inclination and passion for piloting desks and you would most likely have ended up miserable, wishing you had spent your youth skying and dreaming of building a cabin in Alaska.
You chased your car and caught the tire, so it is natural that you are wondering if this is all there is. Catching a tire is a hell of an accomplishment and you have done well, dawg. Pining for a different tire on a car that sped away will not make you happy. Figure your stuff out - your past will not return, so you need to find out what your future holds. If you are really hell bent on corporate life, go take a financial accounting or tax law class and figure out how much you really like the stuff.
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I really feel Skyhigh has an anti-fire agenda for some reason. Complaining about having to fill meaningless days skiing?? Really...give me a break!!!!
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As an individual, I can buy a canoe and paddle the lake. As a member of an organization, I could command an ocean liner. More is relative. I could take more time off. I could go back to filling my days skiing, however, it does not feel like more to me.
One thing that you fail to mention is: How many great, talented individuals within an organization never get their turn to "command an ocean liner"? Think about professional sports and you can see how many get passed by. Anyone who has worked in corporate America has witnessed tons of people who get passed by. And how are you at politicking? Corporate America is full of "cliques", yes men, and the ass kissers. Are you willing to compromise your principles and kiss ass to realize your goal of "commanding the liner"? I have known those who had talents and chose not to kiss ass - only to be left behind, and I have known those who were worthless - but were great ass kissers that went straight to "commanding the liner".
The thing about corporate America that maybe you have not experienced is: You only have limited input to your success at a corporation. In a corporation, the ones above you have more control of your progress than you do.
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I envied those with corporate badges, parking spaces, structured retirement plans and the like.
A corporate badge is a piece of paper enclosed in plastic - nothing more, nothing less. A printer can make one up for you for less than $5.
A parking space is a piece of concrete a little larger than a car. I imagine that you have at least one where you live. A internet connection, $20, and an Amazon account can get a personalized sign to accompany the parking space.
Structured retirement plan???? If you are already FIRE, WTF??? That's like saying, I don't want a RED Porsche, I want a BLUE Porsche.
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I kind of get where you're coming from. Is it cool that I'm the youngest principal scientist in a massive organization? Yes, absolutely. Do I feel any more fulfilled than I did before? Only for about 15-20 minutes a month. Fulfillment has to come from within. External motivation is incredibly temporary. I was happy for a couple hours when I was offered this position. Now I'm brutally tearing myself apart that I'm not already Chief Scientist. I want that bigger office. I want that private plane. God damn I want that expense account.
But I'm actually more fulfilled when I spend an evening with my wife and our friends playing a new board game or take time to hike and forage for mushrooms and other edibles. Still, I don't think I would find those things satisfying without the rest of the things in my life. Balance is necessary. So, go get a job. Get yelled at my a manager for doing a great job but the manager's cat pissed in his shoes. Get passed over for 20 promotions because someone more attractive or with a better family name happened to wander by the boss's office. Get that ONE chance to make it, work 100 hour weeks for 8 months until you're in the hospital but you finally earn the respect of the directors. Work that for a while, get power, step on the little guys, repeat the cycle.
Or, start your own thing. Make it into the business you want it to be. Be the CEO, grow it until it's a multi-million dollar, multinational firm.
Or, whatever man. You aren't too old, unless you've decided you are. But if you're putting up this much resistance to being told you can, you'll never make it in a structured environment where you're constantly told you can't.
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It also sounds like you're advocating some sort of maximizing philosophy. There may be times when pursuing such a framework is beneficial but maximizing comes with many problems as well.
This hearkens back to your "more" comment. More is not the thing that should be answered. Enough should be the thing that is answered.
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I am all about FIRE. It has been my primary focus for most of my life. In my case, however, it was out of need than as a chosen philosophy. I never got to experience the rush of conspicuous consumption. My career never blossomed into the golden handcuffs that many of you have experienced. I spent decades pursuing an underperforming professional dream that left me broke and unsatisfied. I developed my FIRE mentality out of a need to survive not as an escape from the rat race.
As a result, I feel like I wasted my life. It seems to me that FIRE provided an option to avoid much of the professional satisfaction that many of you may take as for granted. My dream was to become a legacy airline pilot. I went to college, spent many tens of thousands on flight training and wasted decades of my young life on dead end low paying jobs trying to get my break. Much of my 20's were spent under or unemployed. With nothing to lose it is easy to blow a winter on the ski hill. (I don't even like skiing all that much.) Working in the ski industry was a seasonal job that looks like a fun lifestyle. Homelessness can be redefined as an extended camping trip. My youth was one of frugality and it sucked.
My father enjoyed a high performing career. His income right out of college massively outstripped his ability to spend it as a single person. He enjoyed his 20's by indulging himself into whatever simple passion that caught his eye. Over time he got married and his income thinned as children came along. His dream job slowly became a drudgery. Though he still helped to put a man on the moon. His name appears in a few textbooks and trade journals. His work is still being used today. What he did mattered to the world around him. His need to produce an income helped to produce content that this world needed.
I became self-reliant in my upper 30's after being laid off from an airline job and it effectively removed me from the workplace. It killed my drive to go through the hell that it is to work in a high-pressure industry. My family became comfortable in our country town. It is difficult to dislodge from the allure of an easier modest life. My issue is that are we not placed upon this earth for more than merely existing? It seems that FIRE can render someone inert. Many of you here have fantastic careers. You have skills and abilities that the world needs in abundance.
I know how to achieve FIRE and am willing to share that information. The word "retire" though suggests that there needs to be a career of some sort that precedes financial independence. I never was able to experience the satisfaction that must come from reaching ones professional goals and it makes me sad. It is unsatisfying to me that I can make more driving a lawn mower in a day than as a captain of a 737.
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I am all about FIRE. It has been my primary focus for most of my life. In my case, however, it was out of need than as a chosen philosophy. I never got to experience the rush of conspicuous consumption. My career never blossomed into the golden handcuffs that many of you have experienced. I spent decades pursuing an underperforming professional dream that left me broke and unsatisfied. I developed my FIRE mentality out of a need to survive not as an escape from the rat race.
As a result, I feel like I wasted my life. It seems to me that FIRE provided an option to avoid much of the professional satisfaction that many of you may take as for granted. My dream was to become a legacy airline pilot. I went to college, spent many tens of thousands on flight training and wasted decades of my young life on dead end low paying jobs trying to get my break. Much of my 20's were spent under or unemployed. With nothing to lose it is easy to blow a winter on the ski hill. (I don't even like skiing all that much.) Working in the ski industry was a seasonal job that looks like a fun lifestyle. Homelessness can be redefined as an extended camping trip. My youth was one of frugality and it sucked.
My father enjoyed a high performing career. His income right out of college massively outstripped his ability to spend it as a single person. He enjoyed his 20's by indulging himself into whatever simple passion that caught his eye. Over time he got married and his income thinned as children came along. His dream job slowly became a drudgery. Though he still helped to put a man on the moon. His name appears in a few textbooks and trade journals. His work is still being used today. What he did mattered to the world around him. His need to produce an income helped to produce content that this world needed.
I became self-reliant in my upper 30's after being laid off from an airline job and it effectively removed me from the workplace. It killed my drive to go through the hell that it is to work in a high-pressure industry. My family became comfortable in our country town. It is difficult to dislodge from the allure of an easier modest life. My issue is that are we not placed upon this earth for more than merely existing? It seems that FIRE can render someone inert. Many of you here have fantastic careers. You have skills and abilities that the world needs in abundance.
I know how to achieve FIRE and am willing to share that information. The word "retire" though suggests that there needs to be a career of some sort that precedes financial independence. I never was able to experience the satisfaction that must come from reaching ones professional goals and it makes me sad. It is unsatisfying to me that I can make more driving a lawn mower in a day than as a captain of a 737.
But ones self worth needs not to be tied down to a career or in simpler terms we don't need to be defined by what we're paid to do. You can still do without the need for a career.
Sure FIRE can render one inert, so can a corporate environment. FIRE is not merely existing if you don't want it to be.
You can make a mark without the career portion.
It sounds like you're having that existential dread of "what will be here of me when I'm gone?". On one hand whatever you choose to leave. On the other hand after a long enough time... well nothing or at the very least no one will be able to associate it with you. But raising your kids and making your world a better place through whatever means regardless of employment or not are way more impactful than aiding putting a man on the moon.
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Sounds more like grappling with the meaning of life and less like what it means to FIRE.
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
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Sounds more like grappling with the meaning of life and less like what it means to FIRE.
I think it is connected. FIRE is a lifestyle. It is a choice.
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Sounds more like grappling with the meaning of life and less like what it means to FIRE.
I think it is connected. FIRE is a lifestyle. It is a choice.
One which you seem to be stating is less value because you provide less impact.
Your assumption that there is less impact is where I believe most of us take issue. That is an incorrect assumption.
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
Strange value system. If your not a "success" then you have no "value".
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I always figured there was a hierarchy of pilot jobs with a position for everyone from A380 captain down through the superjumbos, jumbos, wide bodies, single aisles, regional turbo props, puddle jumpers, single props, etc. right on down to crop duster. If you can't get the one you want, you just lower your sights a bit, get your foot in the door and try and work back up the ladder.
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.
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I am all about FIRE. It has been my primary focus for most of my life. In my case, however, it was out of need than as a chosen philosophy. I never got to experience the rush of conspicuous consumption. My career never blossomed into the golden handcuffs that many of you have experienced. I spent decades pursuing an underperforming professional dream that left me broke and unsatisfied. I developed my FIRE mentality out of a need to survive not as an escape from the rat race.
"Follow your dreams" is a terrible career path in the vast majority of cases. You hear about it occasionally, usually from professional athletes. Those of course, are the tiny, tiny, minority of athletes. In the majority of cases, it works out the way it did for you. Something sounds glamorous like being a musician or a pilot. So tons of people want those jobs, which means the pay is terrible and sometimes even having a career in those fields is hugely dependent on forces outside your control. The world does not care about your dreams. Does. Not. Care.
I had a friend who had the same pilot dream as you. After he finished flight school he couldn't find a job as a pilot so he got a job as a baggage handler. Then he took advantage of the travel benefits to get a side hustle ferrying airplanes. He got tons and tons of flight hours on a wide variety of aircraft, and he was able to apply for and get pilot's jobs, when the smoke cleared he still couldn't find a pilot's job that paid remotely well enough to support his family. Same as you.
Here is good career advice: Develop an in-demand skill set. That way you will at least have some control over your career.
Here is some lifestyle advice: Become FIRE'd then you have total control over your career. It might not be the career of your dreams but at least you'll be in control of it. That's way better than going to job fairs with nothing to show for it, isn't it?
And some stoic philosophy: What happens to you isn't as important as your reaction to it. Your dream career didn't work out, so you spend your time being depressed. How does that help you?
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Oh, man, you're in deep trouble: you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt.
Don't do this to yourself. Really, man, just don't do this to yourself.
I'm going to repeat it because you're stubborn cuss: don't do this to yourself.
You've done a good job of getting out of a dead-ended career dream and setting yourself and your family up. You didn't win the pony. That's too bad. But you tried: that's good. Now you're living in the past with might-have-beens and regrets. This is not the path to any kind of happiness, FIRE or not.
Here's what will make you happy: spending time enjoying your family, rather than viewing them as millstones. Finding projects to do, on whatever scale of whatever sort, that make you learn new skills, and that will be valuable to you and other people. Thinking of your life in terms of service rather than in terms of glory. There is always a way to serve. Always. Always. Always. There is always a new skill to acquire. There is always something which, when done, will make the world a better place. The scale doesn't matter, but serving does.
I'm sorry your career dream didn't work out, man, but there's more things in life than being a pilot. Get your head out of the past. There's a gorgeous world full of interesting things and people out there. The last half of your life is not going to look like you expected it to. That's actually a good thing, not a bad thing -- but only if you let it be.
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Oh, man, you're in deep trouble: you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt.
Don't do this to yourself. Really, man, just don't do this to yourself.
I'm going to repeat it because you're stubborn cuss: don't do this to yourself.
You've done a good job of getting out of a dead-ended career dream and setting yourself and your family up. You didn't win the pony. That's too bad. But you tried: that's good. Now you're living in the past with might-have-beens and regrets. This is not the path to any kind of happiness, FIRE or not.
Here's what will make you happy: spending time enjoying your family, rather than viewing them as millstones. Finding projects to do, on whatever scale of whatever sort, that make you learn new skills, and that will be valuable to you and other people. Thinking of your life in terms of service rather than in terms of glory. There is always a way to serve. Always. Always. Always. There is always a new skill to acquire. There is always something which, when done, will make the world a better place. The scale doesn't matter, but serving does.
I'm sorry your career dream didn't work out, man, but there's more things in life than being a pilot. Get your head out of the past. There's a gorgeous world full of interesting things and people out there. The last half of your life is not going to look like you expected it to. That's actually a good thing, not a bad thing -- but only if you let it be.
I agree with Spartana - PLUS ONE, to this advice.
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.
Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.
Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.
In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.
Had I developed a consumption mindset then I would have been forced to remain at crummy jobs longer, to live in uncomfortable situations, and to endure crummy co-workers until my ship came in. As it was I always knew that I had an option and I think it held me back a bit.
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There is a great organization that flies rescue dogs to their new homes. It’s called Pilots for Paws. When CA shelters had way too many chi’s they flew 500 to NYC where they all had homes before the planes landed.
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I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.
I cannot emphasis enough how much you are missing the point. If you are bothered and sad everyday you are living your life wrong.
In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.
You are missing the point here too. In order to achieve FIRE, one must use money efficiently. Most people waste money on consumer junk that doesn't make them more happy, or even don't think about the ways they are wasting money--like say leasing cars, or buying expensive managed mutual funds.
One you are FI (I realize there is a lot of disagreement about the term "retire early" so I won't use that term here) and don't have to rely on an outside employer to support your lifestyle, then you land right in the middle of the stream of opportunity. At FI, you are free to pursue your dreams however you see fit and experience whatever you like.
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.
Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.
In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.
Had I developed a consumption mindset then I would have been forced to remain at crummy jobs longer, to live in uncomfortable situations, and to endure crummy co-workers until my ship came in. As it was I always knew that I had an option and I think it held me back a bit.
Sounds like you are doing FIRE wrong and under budgeting your life. FIRE opens opportunities because now you have time to pursue dreams.
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Skyhigh you remind me of a conversation I had with a coworker while I was just starting college during summer break. He said we should all retire when we are young to do all the fun activities we wish and then work when we are older. At the time it seemed like genius to me but this sounds a lot like your life experience and you are not fulfilled. Makes me agree with some of the commenters that maybe at midlife (I am making assumptions about your age), we all tend to ponder and question our life as part of a developmental stage. And no matter what that life has been like we will reach the stage where we realize you cannot realize all your dreams, so might as well pick a few wisely. You can still fulfill your corporate dream if you wish. I am sure employers will love someone that is not plotting how to get out of their present employment situation as so many are, and actually enjoys corporate living.
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My dreams were unavailable to me because my industry was in recession. Now that it has recovered I am considered to be too old. I am thankful to have achieved FIRE and have reached an income level that is comfortable however it seems to have come at the expense of my dream.
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I do not think it is wise for the young to abandon their careers in lieu of the pursuit of fun. Opportunity does not wait.
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You're alive, though, so... you never know. At least you can try. And if you fail, try something else.
Good luck in all your endeavors.
PS. I heard a story that most people don't achieve their Plan A - or B, or C; most people are on Plan F or so. Best wishes on making the most out of the time you have left.
https://www.goalcast.com/2018/06/26/8-successful-people-found-success-later-life/
https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/14-inspiring-people-who-found-crazy-success-later-in-life.html
https://ideas.ted.com/what-can-we-learn-from-people-who-succeed-later-in-life/
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Oh, man, you're in deep trouble: you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt.
Don't do this to yourself. Really, man, just don't do this to yourself.
I'm going to repeat it because you're stubborn cuss: don't do this to yourself.
You've done a good job of getting out of a dead-ended career dream and setting yourself and your family up. You didn't win the pony. That's too bad. But you tried: that's good. Now you're living in the past with might-have-beens and regrets. This is not the path to any kind of happiness, FIRE or not.
Here's what will make you happy: spending time enjoying your family, rather than viewing them as millstones. Finding projects to do, on whatever scale of whatever sort, that make you learn new skills, and that will be valuable to you and other people. Thinking of your life in terms of service rather than in terms of glory. There is always a way to serve. Always. Always. Always. There is always a new skill to acquire. There is always something which, when done, will make the world a better place. The scale doesn't matter, but serving does.
I'm sorry your career dream didn't work out, man, but there's more things in life than being a pilot. Get your head out of the past. There's a gorgeous world full of interesting things and people out there. The last half of your life is not going to look like you expected it to. That's actually a good thing, not a bad thing -- but only if you let it be.
Thank you. I appreciate your words and wisdom. I spent many decades taking classes, volunteering, travel, and have been available for my kids every second of their lives. It has all been a blessing however I wanted to see my professional dreams come true. It is important too. I am too young to retire and too old to start over. My opportunity has passed me by and its a bummer.
I have a lot of friends who have retired early and they get bored.
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Maybe invest in therapy.
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You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.
Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.
In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.
Had I developed a consumption mindset then I would have been forced to remain at crummy jobs longer, to live in uncomfortable situations, and to endure crummy co-workers until my ship came in. As it was I always knew that I had an option and I think it held me back a bit.
However you don't seem to agree wholeheartedly. You undermine that statement right away by dwelling in that past and in regret.
FIRE != sacrifice. What is so important that FIRE removes you from? I would argue rather than opportunity being narrowed that it in fact increases with FIRE as you have time and resources to pursue more options. Minimalism does not mean that at all and I think you have an unusual take on it. It does not mean an absence of new experiences; those two things are entirely unrelated.
And you instantly undermine your own points with your last paragraph.
I think there is a serious disconnect here between what you seem to think FIRE is and what others do. You talk about sacrifice and avoidance of life in order to not have to work again and I think that you are wrong and wrong about the people that are here.
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If you don't want to retire.....don't.
The RE is FIRE is totally optional. The FI part is the key (IMO). It gives you more leverage and options.
Of course FI is completely optional also, the majority of people in the world have no real desire to be FI.
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I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.
I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.
Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.
I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.
The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.
-
You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.
Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.
All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.
I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)
Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.
Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.
In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.
Had I developed a consumption mindset then I would have been forced to remain at crummy jobs longer, to live in uncomfortable situations, and to endure crummy co-workers until my ship came in. As it was I always knew that I had an option and I think it held me back a bit.
However you don't seem to agree wholeheartedly. You undermine that statement right away by dwelling in that past and in regret.
FIRE != sacrifice. What is so important that FIRE removes you from? I would argue rather than opportunity being narrowed that it in fact increases with FIRE as you have time and resources to pursue more options. Minimalism does not mean that at all and I think you have an unusual take on it. It does not mean an absence of new experiences; those two things are entirely unrelated.
And you instantly undermine your own points with your last paragraph.
I think there is a serious disconnect here between what you seem to think FIRE is and what others do. You talk about sacrifice and avoidance of life in order to not have to work again and I think that you are wrong and wrong about the people that are here.
I am long past my minimalist phase. I only mentioned it because I remember it as being an extended period of near non-existence. It would have been more fun to have enjoyed my 20's gainfully employed and indulging in conspicuous consumption. I achieved FIRE long ago.
My point is that there is more to life than self-gratification. In FIRE circles you tend to meet others who are in a similar situation. I can spot them a mile away mostly because everyone else is at work. I met this guy recently who skis almost everyday and largely does what he wants. He is happy with his life but there is a melancholy to it as well. Self-indulgent pursuits are not all that satisfying after a while. I used to love fishing. I fished 90 days a year and even worked as a guide, but can't stand fishing anymore.
There must be a sense of satisfaction that comes from accomplishing something important, from being included in the world at large, from being challenged and reaching a professional goal. My wife and I have spent nearly every day with our kids, and there is a lot of them. They are on the mostly grown side of things these days so it is time to go back to work. She has a great career lined up but mine has left me behind. All I am saying is that it must be nice to have left a meaningful career behind and to be able to bask in the glow of career accomplishment before FIRE. I wish I could have accomplished my career dream.
My industry has recovered and I am ready to go back to work but they don't want me anymore. I don't want to retire. I don't want to volunteer, go hiking, read books, or stay at home anymore. I wish to join the workforce in a meaningful pursuit that I am excited about and remain there until my health fails. I'm done with being retired.
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I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.
I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.
Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.
I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.
The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.
Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.
I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.
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I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.
You said you were laid off and then when your industry recovered, you were subject to age discrimination. Neither of those things are because of FIRE. Having money to allow FIRE just kept you from needing a shittier job.
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I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.
I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.
Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.
I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.
The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.
Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.
I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.
Which is what exactly?
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OP, have you read "Old Man and the Sea" by Hemmingway? It's your situation basically, so maybe it would help to read it and realize this is a common human experience.
As for me? I wanted to be an economist, then a diplomat. Then I decided against diplomat but had switched majors away from econ and wanted to get out of college in four years. I'm now a commercial real estate lawyer working for local gov't. So I get you -- this is how the cookies crumble for most of us. But to be honest, it also doesn't bother me -- dollars in exceed dollars out, fitness tracker says calories out are exceeding calories in, kids are growing up, we have a roof and food.
If you want to fly planes, fly them. If you want to work, work. Maybe you'll get to have someone pay you to fly planes, or maybe you'll just have to work at one time and then fly planes for no pay. You probably won't ever be a captain of a jumbo jet. That's just how things go in this world. There's cancer, famine, murder and rape too so it gets a lot worse than that. I think your problems are primarily spiritual, and that to get over this you'll need to take it up with God (apologies to the secular folks).
I think reading biographies may be helpful too. Some people seem to have everything (movie stars, athletes) and then blow it all. Others, like Victor Frankel and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (read their books -- may change your life) had literally everything stripped from them and were thrown in the cruelest prisons imagined, tortured and abused, and yet created astounding meaning from it.
Instead of traveling around the world, now I rarely leave my city and I don't have a PhD or any significant publications. But I work hard at my job, and we put up a lot of interesting buildings from our nondescript little office (an old school, repurpsed) in the suburbs. You can add value, in ways big and small, no matter who you are or what you do in this world. You just need to open your eyes a little differently than you did before.
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.
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I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.
I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.
Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.
I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.
The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.
Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.
I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.
I admit I'm having trouble understanding your angst. If you love planes, why is your dream so narrow and specific? If you can't get a legacy airline, then try the regionals. If you can't fly the regionals, then fly for a charter. If you can't fly for a charter, fly as an instructor for a school. If you can't be an instructor, then fly volunteer flights.
I mean, for all that I've succeeded aboard ships, there are levels of prestige above mine. The ships I command are small - hundreds of feet, not thousands. The Commander of an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine get accolades that will always outstrip my own level of recognition. But I don't care that there are pinnacles above mine, because I'm here for the ships, not the prestige.
Ultimately, I agree with you; the FIRE movement has its flaws. Nor is it the one and only moral way to live your life. If FIRE isn't for you, that's okay. Keep striving, and see where you can get.
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I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.
You said you were laid off and then when your industry recovered, you were subject to age discrimination. Neither of those things are because of FIRE. Having money to allow FIRE just kept you from needing a shittier job.
You are correct. I do not have to accept the crummy jobs. I have held plenty of awful piloting jobs. FIRE makes it so that one does not have to go through the hard times. Employers expect to see a similar path from its applicants. As a result, my resume does not reflect a struggling subservient employee anymore.
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I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.
I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.
Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.
I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.
The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.
Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.
I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.
I admit I'm having trouble understanding your angst. If you love planes, why is your dream so narrow and specific? If you can't get a legacy airline, then try the regionals. If you can't fly the regionals, then fly for a charter. If you can't fly for a charter, fly as an instructor for a school. If you can't be an instructor, then fly volunteer flights.
I mean, for all that I've succeeded aboard ships, there are levels of prestige above mine. The ships I command are small - hundreds of feet, not thousands. The Commander of an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine get accolades that will always outstrip my own level of recognition. But I don't care that there are pinnacles above mine, because I'm here for the ships, not the prestige.
Ultimately, I agree with you; the FIRE movement has its flaws. Nor is it the one and only moral way to live your life. If FIRE isn't for you, that's okay. Keep striving, and see where you can get.
I have flown for the regionals, charter, corporate, and held many more positions as a pilot. I also own a plane. It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal. In addition, the lower rung career positions treat people like garbage. FIRE makes it so that I don't have to do that anymore. Airline employers expect to see a miserable person who is an indentured servant to the industry. In my case, I have two strikes against me in that I am self-employed and over 50. Employers universally do not seem to like those aspects.
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For the sake of politeness I haven't said it but - troll post.
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OP, have you read "Old Man and the Sea" by Hemmingway? It's your situation basically, so maybe it would help to read it and realize this is a common human experience.
As for me? I wanted to be an economist, then a diplomat. Then I decided against diplomat but had switched majors away from econ and wanted to get out of college in four years. I'm now a commercial real estate lawyer working for local gov't. So I get you -- this is how the cookies crumble for most of us. But to be honest, it also doesn't bother me -- dollars in exceed dollars out, fitness tracker says calories out are exceeding calories in, kids are growing up, we have a roof and food.
If you want to fly planes, fly them. If you want to work, work. Maybe you'll get to have someone pay you to fly planes, or maybe you'll just have to work at one time and then fly planes for no pay. You probably won't ever be a captain of a jumbo jet. That's just how things go in this world. There's cancer, famine, murder and rape too so it gets a lot worse than that. I think your problems are primarily spiritual, and that to get over this you'll need to take it up with God (apologies to the secular folks).
I think reading biographies may be helpful too. Some people seem to have everything (movie stars, athletes) and then blow it all. Others, like Victor Frankel and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (read their books -- may change your life) had literally everything stripped from them and were thrown in the cruelest prisons imagined, tortured and abused, and yet created astounding meaning from it.
Instead of traveling around the world, now I rarely leave my city and I don't have a PhD or any significant publications. But I work hard at my job, and we put up a lot of interesting buildings from our nondescript little office (an old school, repurpsed) in the suburbs. You can add value, in ways big and small, no matter who you are or what you do in this world. You just need to open your eyes a little differently than you did before.
Old Man and the Sea is a very good book. I should read it again. Seems like you have already enjoyed quite an accomplished career. If I held similar accomplishments before FIRE I imagine that I would feel diffrent.
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My dreams were unavailable to me because my industry was in recession. Now that it has recovered I am considered to be too old. I am thankful to have achieved FIRE and have reached an income level that is comfortable however it seems to have come at the expense of my dream.
So whether you FIREd or not you still wouldn't have been able to pursue your career as a pilot because the industry was in recession. So why do you keep saying your dream failed because of attaining FI and RE? This is beginning to feel more like a troll post trashing on FI and RE as something negative for everyone rather than an attempt to discuss a failed career choice. I'm not trying to be insulting but maybe you could explain it better so I'd understand how FIRE messed up your career plans.
FIRE made it so that I did not have to take the crummy jobs and remain at them for lack of other sources of income. FIRE provided an option to sit out the hard times and wait till the industry recovered. I used those years to spend time with family and to build a business awaiting an opportunity to return. I assumed that my credentials would maintain their value and that legacy airlines are interested in seasoned pilots.
There is a drastic pilot shortage underway but not at the career level that is of interest to me. The regional airlines are struggling to find willing applicants who will endure the crummy positions. I have also had my fill of that. Legacy airlines seem to want younger people who have demonstrated a willingness to place themselves into awful conditions for the career. I did that for a long time and am not willing to go through that again. When it was my turn the legacy airlines were not hiring.
FIRE makes it so that one does not have to do a lot of things. In my experience employers look for common career trajectories and can recognize when one is an outlier. They want indentured employees and not financially independent tourists. FIRE can kill professional opportunity.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Holland
WELCOME TO HOLLAND
by
Emily Perl Kingsley.
c1987 by Emily Perl Kingsley. All rights reserved
I am often asked to describe the experience of raising a child with a disability - to try to help people who have not shared that unique experience to understand it, to imagine how it would feel. It's like this......
When you're going to have a baby, it's like planning a fabulous vacation trip - to Italy. You buy a bunch of guide books and make your wonderful plans. The Coliseum. The Michelangelo David. The gondolas in Venice. You may learn some handy phrases in Italian. It's all very exciting.
After months of eager anticipation, the day finally arrives. You pack your bags and off you go. Several hours later, the plane lands. The stewardess comes in and says, "Welcome to Holland."
"Holland?!?" you say. "What do you mean Holland?? I signed up for Italy! I'm supposed to be in Italy. All my life I've dreamed of going to Italy."
But there's been a change in the flight plan. They've landed in Holland and there you must stay.
The important thing is that they haven't taken you to a horrible, disgusting, filthy place, full of pestilence, famine and disease. It's just a different place.
So you must go out and buy new guide books. And you must learn a whole new language. And you will meet a whole new group of people you would never have met.
It's just a different place. It's slower-paced than Italy, less flashy than Italy. But after you've been there for a while and you catch your breath, you look around.... and you begin to notice that Holland has windmills....and Holland has tulips. Holland even has Rembrandts.
But everyone you know is busy coming and going from Italy... and they're all bragging about what a wonderful time they had there. And for the rest of your life, you will say "Yes, that's where I was supposed to go. That's what I had planned."
And the pain of that will never, ever, ever, ever go away... because the loss of that dream is a very very significant loss.
But... if you spend your life mourning the fact that you didn't get to Italy, you may never be free to enjoy the very special, the very lovely things ... about Holland.
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Old Man and the Sea is a very good book. I should read it again. Seems like you have already enjoyed quite an accomplished career. If I held similar accomplishments before FIRE I imagine that I would feel diffrent.
True. The working part sucked but the overall trajectory of my very accomplished career was awesome.
It was mostly about trying to avoid responsibility and real work while making as much money as possible.* I gave myself reviews every 6 months and often was at the top of my peers.
* So I disagree with Malkynn -- FIRE and FIRE alone can make someone happy. I do realize that I'm in a distinct minority, though.
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I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.
I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.
Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.
I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.
The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.
Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.
I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.
I admit I'm having trouble understanding your angst. If you love planes, why is your dream so narrow and specific? If you can't get a legacy airline, then try the regionals. If you can't fly the regionals, then fly for a charter. If you can't fly for a charter, fly as an instructor for a school. If you can't be an instructor, then fly volunteer flights.
I mean, for all that I've succeeded aboard ships, there are levels of prestige above mine. The ships I command are small - hundreds of feet, not thousands. The Commander of an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine get accolades that will always outstrip my own level of recognition. But I don't care that there are pinnacles above mine, because I'm here for the ships, not the prestige.
Ultimately, I agree with you; the FIRE movement has its flaws. Nor is it the one and only moral way to live your life. If FIRE isn't for you, that's okay. Keep striving, and see where you can get.
I have flown for the regionals, charter, corporate, and held many more positions as a pilot. I also own a plane. It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal. In addition, the lower rung career positions treat people like garbage. FIRE makes it so that I don't have to do that anymore. Airline employers expect to see a miserable person who is an indentured servant to the industry. In my case, I have two strikes against me in that I am self-employed and over 50. Employers universally do not seem to like those aspects.
Skyhigh,
Some of the things you've said in this discussion (like the comment above that "It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal") made me want to understand where you're coming from, so I looked at a few of your previous posts. What struck me was one where you said "I never really liked flying" and that you just wanted a well paying career so you could be FI.
You seem unhappy with the way your life has turned out, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with being FI, which you say you've achieved. It seems that you don't have a passion for flying, but a strong desire for some sort of prestige or external validation.
For what it is worth, Like SailorSam, I had a job that involved quite a bit of prestige and even some pomp and circumstance. But you know what? I loved doing my work when I was doing it at lower levels (for most of my career) and I would have loved my work even if I had stayed at those lower levels. Reaching the higher levels and having some of the trappings of leadership were nice, but they were just icing on the cake. Trust me, most people really don't care very much what you do for a living and they care even less about whatever it is that you used to do once you're retired. The people who salute the Captain of the Ship stop doing it when he retires, because the importance largely resides in the position, not the individual (no offense, SailorSam). A new Captain comes aboard and the old Captain puts aside his almost godlike authorities to become a regular person again. I know from personal experience that people who define themselves by their rank and expect the respect that accrues to their title to follow them into retirement tend to have a very hard adjustment back to the real world. Sometimes they become "usetabes," as in I usetabe a ... Now, you are in danger of defining yourself by a job title you didn't achieve an "I wantedtobea" if you will. Please don't let that happen.
It seems you've been beating yourself up for decades over the fact that you didn't achieve your goal in a career you didn't even like. I mean you no offense, but you shouldn't be too surprised if you fail to make it to the top as a pilot if you have no passion for flying when so many of your colleagues/competitors obviously do.
In some of your other posts, you press the idea that people should get practical jobs that pay a lot of money and ignore their passions because they won't pay the bills. There's certainly an argument that people should be realistic and practical about the economic realities of following their passions. On the other hand, if you're FI, maybe it is time you stop focusing on the aviation career you said you never liked anyway and find something you can, in fact, be passionate about.
I know people who have reached the highest peaks of their professions, but the cost has been broken marriages and children who don't like them. If they had a do over, I think a lot of them would do things differently. I would encourage you to think about the things you have achieved and learn to take pleasure in them rather than focusing on what you haven't done. But if you still want to do more, find something you can really care about and do it. Maybe the airline industry is doing you a favor by not giving you a job you clearly have no passion for.
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When one reaches FIRE your begin to associate with others who also have achieved FIRE. There are a lot of former airline pilots who are now entrepreneurs for similar reasons as I. Employers look at failed pilots as being uselessness playboys. As a pilot, it is very difficult to get a job in aviation but nearly impossible to find one outside of aviation. As a result, we tend to start our own businesses out of professional despair.
One of my friends developed a very successful appliance business at a very young age. He sold it in his mid-30's and now has nearly nothing to do. He bought a bunch of planes and flies them till he can't stand it anymore. He bought a vacation house on an island and a big fishing boat, but no one can go with him because they are all at work or school. He is a very young man still and is starring down the barrel of 40 years of uselessness.
It's not fun to see others achieving professional accolades while seated on the sidelines. I have another friend who comes from an airline family. He is in his early 40's and became a wealthy developer. In his youth, he tried to get his airline dreams underway but couldn't. His younger brother though came into a more willing airline market place. As a result, he is quickly climbing the ladder. My friend is many times better off financially due to his path however there is a cast of melancholy.
Epitaph: Here lies a wealthy appliance salesman.
There is a lot more to life than achieving FIRE. Our purpose extends beyond merely existing and the pursuit of self-indulgent endeavors. There is a longing to accomplish, a desire to serve in our highest capacity, and drive to achieve that is dimmed by FIRE. The results of achieving FIRE can be that of an uneventful life.
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I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.
I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.
Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.
I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.
The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.
Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.
I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.
I admit I'm having trouble understanding your angst. If you love planes, why is your dream so narrow and specific? If you can't get a legacy airline, then try the regionals. If you can't fly the regionals, then fly for a charter. If you can't fly for a charter, fly as an instructor for a school. If you can't be an instructor, then fly volunteer flights.
I mean, for all that I've succeeded aboard ships, there are levels of prestige above mine. The ships I command are small - hundreds of feet, not thousands. The Commander of an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine get accolades that will always outstrip my own level of recognition. But I don't care that there are pinnacles above mine, because I'm here for the ships, not the prestige.
Ultimately, I agree with you; the FIRE movement has its flaws. Nor is it the one and only moral way to live your life. If FIRE isn't for you, that's okay. Keep striving, and see where you can get.
I have flown for the regionals, charter, corporate, and held many more positions as a pilot. I also own a plane. It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal. In addition, the lower rung career positions treat people like garbage. FIRE makes it so that I don't have to do that anymore. Airline employers expect to see a miserable person who is an indentured servant to the industry. In my case, I have two strikes against me in that I am self-employed and over 50. Employers universally do not seem to like those aspects.
Skyhigh,
Some of the things you've said in this discussion (like the comment above that "It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal") made me want to understand where you're coming from, so I looked at a few of your previous posts. What struck me was one where you said "I never really liked flying" and that you just wanted a well paying career so you could be FI.
You seem unhappy with the way your life has turned out, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with being FI, which you say you've achieved. It seems that you don't have a passion for flying, but a strong desire for some sort of prestige or external validation.
For what it is worth, Like SailorSam, I had a job that involved quite a bit of prestige and even some pomp and circumstance. But you know what? I loved doing my work when I was doing it at lower levels (for most of my career) and I would have loved my work even if I had stayed at those lower levels. Reaching the higher levels and having some of the trappings of leadership were nice, but they were just icing on the cake. Trust me, most people really don't care very much what you do for a living and they care even less about whatever it is that you used to do once you're retired. The people who salute the Captain of the Ship stop doing it when he retires, because the importance largely resides in the position, not the individual (no offense, SailorSam). A new Captain comes aboard and the old Captain puts aside his almost godlike authorities to become a regular person again. I know from personal experience that people who define themselves by their rank and expect the respect that accrues to their title to follow them into retirement tend to have a very hard adjustment back to the real world. Sometimes they become "usetabes," as in I usetabe a ... Now, you are in danger of defining yourself by a job title you didn't achieve an "I wantedtobea" if you will. Please don't let that happen.
It seems you've been beating yourself up for decades over the fact that you didn't achieve your goal in a career you didn't even like. I mean you no offense, but you shouldn't be too surprised if you fail to make it to the top as a pilot if you have no passion for flying when so many of your colleagues/competitors obviously do.
In some of your other posts, you press the idea that people should get practical jobs that pay a lot of money and ignore their passions because they won't pay the bills. There's certainly an argument that people should be realistic and practical about the economic realities of following their passions. On the other hand, if you're FI, maybe it is time you stop focusing on the aviation career you said you never liked anyway and find something you can, in fact, be passionate about.
I know people who have reached the highest peaks of their professions, but the cost has been broken marriages and children who don't like them. If they had a do over, I think a lot of them would do things differently. I would encourage you to think about the things you have achieved and learn to take pleasure in them rather than focusing on what you haven't done. But if you still want to do more, find something you can really care about and do it. Maybe the airline industry is doing you a favor by not giving you a job you clearly have no passion for.
Flying for the airlines is largely a joyless occupation. Most would agree. The drive for safety leaches out most of the creative outlet opportunities true pilots longs for. It is the lifestyle that people enjoy. I do not subscribe to the idea that our professions need to be fun. Children don't dream of being accountants or orthodontists. Adults do it because of the lifestyle those professions provide. Those who truly love flying tend to become despondent flying for the airlines. I dreamed of achieving the lifestyle that comes from being a professional that is well treated and valued by their employer. I dreamed of achieving an upper-middle-class consumption lifestyle that comes from a worthy profession. I longed for a comfortable career that was in line with my natural abilities and came with some sense of professional accomplishment and status.
My gifts natural gifts lie in the flight deck. Flying is relatively easy for me. If I were able to have become an accountant I would have. As a business owner, I have been constantly pushed to do things I don't enjoy. My early years of financial deprivation were not fun at all. The plan was to have developed a meaningful career using the natural abilities I was born with. The profession would provide the financial surplus needed to accomplish FIRE. Due to an underperforming career, I had to suffer for a long time. It seemed that opportunity reversed my plan. The idea became one of achieving FIRE, then, returning to the airlines. It does not seem to be working out.
I have a diverse resume of aviation experiences that others envy. In my past, I flew in the Alaskan bush, as a wildfire pilot for the forest service, as a medevac pilot, for the airlines, and many other aviation positions. My path suggests that I am an aviation enthusiast. The whole time I was trying to reach my legacy airline goal. I could get plenty of flying jobs but not the one I wanted. I keep trying though. I have a few really good flying job now that are a lot of fun. It is the closest I will most likely get to my dreams. I wanted a financially meaningful career but got a grand adventure instead. The financial shortfall of "fun" jobs has caused me a lot of grief.
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Then find ways to make your life more useful. Maybe emergency rescue or air ambulance piloting would fill the bill. Perhaps someone like the Make-A-wish Foundation could use your help.
Not defining yourself as a wannabe and/or pilot would also be enormously helpful. You can still be a successful guy with a passion for flying. In fact, that's what you are, but apparently you can't see it. Time to get some new glasses.
Think of all the people who aspired to be astronauts. Did you know John Denver wanted to be an astronaut? He got really, really close when NASA was recruiting civilians, but ultimately didn't make the cut. Does that make him a failure? BTW - no crash jokes please. His death was in large part due to faulty plane design.
I have held off with the troll assessment, but you really do seem to be your own worst enemy.
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Flying for the airlines is largely a joyless occupation. Most would agree. The drive for safety leaches out most of the creative outlet opportunities true pilots longs for. It is the lifestyle that people enjoy. I do not subscribe to the idea that our professions need to be fun. Children don't dream of being accountants or orthodontists. Adults do it because of the lifestyle those professions provide. Those who truly love flying tend to become despondent flying for the airlines. I dreamed of achieving the lifestyle that comes from being a professional that is well treated and valued by their employer. I dreamed of achieving an upper-middle-class consumption lifestyle that comes from a worthy profession. I longed for a comfortable career that was in line with my natural abilities and came with some sense of professional accomplishment and status.
Okay, having read this thread, I think the two bits I've highlighted in bold above are really at the core of everything you're unhappy about, Skyhigh. I've struggled as well with being able to let go with the quest for status/recognition/tokens of career accomplishment, but one thing I've found that helps is to try to put what I want into quantitative rather than abstract terms. When I do that I realize that some what I think I want in the abstract doesn't sound as appealing in the specific, and some of the specifics I really do want I can try to achieve through other means.
So let's start. In specific terms, when you picture a comfortable upper middle class consumption lifestyle what are the things you'd like to be spending money on in such a lifestyle but which you don't or cannot spend money on today? I'm not going to judge or tell you you're a bad person for wanting to spend money. But really do try to think of 3-5. The more specific the better.
Similarly, a sense of professional accomplishment and status are actually a bit different. The first is something you really give to yourself, the second is something other people award you through how they treat you. So when it comes to feeling like you have "status" can you think of some specific actions or behaviors you wish people around you would make, that you think would happen if you did have status, but which aren't happening today? Again, the more specific you can be the better, and I promise I'm not going to attack you or tear you down, I just really find the exercise helps in the kind of struggle it sounds like you're going through.
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Old Man and the Sea is a very good book. I should read it again. Seems like you have already enjoyed quite an accomplished career. If I held similar accomplishments before FIRE I imagine that I would feel diffrent.
True. The working part sucked but the overall trajectory of my very accomplished career was awesome.
It was mostly about trying to avoid responsibility and real work while making as much money as possible.* I gave myself reviews every 6 months and often was at the top of my peers.
* So I disagree with Malkynn -- FIRE and FIRE alone can make someone happy. I do realize that I'm in a distinct minority, though.
FIRE, for some, is a necessary prerequisite for happiness, but it doesn't absolve the person from the work it takes to achieve that happiness.
FIRE does not make anyone happy in and of itself, but it can certainly help create an environment within which someone can achieve happiness if they know how to be happy. A lot of people don't.
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I wanted a financially meaningful career but got a grand adventure instead. The financial shortfall of "fun" jobs has caused me a lot of grief.
You're FI. Therefore you have enough money, or you are applying the term incorrectly. You want to still work. You still get work. You say you got a grand adventure. You say you got time with your kids. Objectively, there is nothing to complain about.
You really don't sound like your grief comes from anywhere but yourself.
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Well this is a strange thread. If I understand correctly Skyhigh is arguing that FIRE makes you lose your competitive edge because you only really go for your dreams if you're financially uncomfortable or even desperate. If you're FIRE fat n' happy, terrible employers like the airline industry will pass you over in favour of younger lean n' hungry types. And once you're FIRE you are completely incapable of regaining your edge because financial desperation is the only motivation that works.
Well... there is probably some truth to that last part for some people or so many wouldn't resist FI or once FI, still pile up lots of OMYs. And that's OK. Know thyself. If you need external drivers, the more unpleasant the better, to work towards goals, FI or FIRE might not be for you. You will be out of step with this forum, though. :)
What I don't get though, is why Skyhigh is pining for the dream of a pilot job in the airline industry, when nothing he writes about it seems attractive. Like many other posters have written, get new dreams! And if you need to be uncomfortable to be motivated to pursue them, do some scary (to you) things.
Honestly, this post and followups reminds me a lot of the Mr. Bojangles threads where Mr. B. was also pining for some unrealistic past and unable to enjoy the present, let alone the future. Couldn't be the same person? Cousins?
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I have professional dreams and wish that I had a chance to have accomplished them. Now that opportunities are becoming abundant I want to go to work in a meaningful position but the industry has moved on to successive generations.
I achieved FIRE a long time ago now and am thankful for the lifestyle that it has afforded, but it was/is not much fun for me. Others in a similar position share a sort of glum that is hard to explain. When someone in their mid-40's what you "do" and your response is "I ski". It is kind of embarrassing. We live in a career culture. Our career is an important interface with the world. It is a source of self-worth. FIRE is great but it is much better, in my opinion, to have retired from something meaningful. I wish I had enjoyed professional success before being put out to pasture is all. It was always my intention to return. Now that the realization is that I can't it is disappointing.
I did, however, achieve FIRE and help others to accomplish the same.
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When someone in their mid-40's what you "do" and your response is "I ski". It is kind of embarrassing. We live in a career culture. Our career is an important interface with the world.
If that is what is bothering you, why not mislead or reframe when you're asked that question?
For example: "I'm an entrepreneur. Right now I'm living off the proceeds from the sale of my last venture while deciding what to do next." (because you are) or "I fly planes." (because you do) or "I have a really nice gig where I can consult remotely" (because yes you could) or even just "I don't like to talk about work" (because it sure sounds like you don't)
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When someone in their mid-40's what you "do" and your response is "I ski". It is kind of embarrassing. We live in a career culture. Our career is an important interface with the world.
If that is what is bothering you, why not mislead or reframe when you're asked that question?
For example: "I'm an entrepreneur. Right now I'm living off the proceeds from the sale of my last venture while deciding what to do next." (because you are) or "I fly planes." (because you do) or "I have a really nice gig where I can consult remotely" (because yes you could) or even just "I don't like to talk about work" (because it sure sounds like you don't)
What's bothering me is that I did not succeed in my professional goals. I could dream up titles for myself but I am not interested in that. Instead of using my natural skills, education, training, and abilities to achieve FIRE I mowed lawns, build houses, managed real estate, and created a portfolio of rental properties. Very grueling low brow work. Years of self-sacrifice and humble living. Not fun. Stressful, dangerous, and high risk. We are much better off now but I do not feel very accomplished or professionally satisfied. My callused hands are not the brand of intelligence or accomplishment. I did not exercise my higher functions to get here.
I came from a family of professionals who cherished their accomplishments. They were paid well to use their education to provide for a good living. I did things no one else wanted to do to make it to FIRE.
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What's bothering me is that I did not succeed in my professional goals. I could dream up titles for myself but I am not interested in that. Instead of using my natural skills, education, training, and abilities to achieve FIRE I mowed lawns, build houses, managed real estate, and created a portfolio of rental properties. Very grueling low brow work. Years of self-sacrifice and humble living. Not fun. Stressful, dangerous, and high risk. We are much better off now but I do not feel very accomplished or professionally satisfied. My callused hands are not the brand of intelligence or accomplishment. I did not exercise my higher functions to get here.
I came from a family of professionals who cherished their accomplishments. They were paid well to use their education to provide for a good living. I did things no one else wanted to do to make it to FIRE.
In your previous posts it has sounded like you are bothered by what others think (or what you think they might think) about you. Consider whether the problem is how you yourself perceive your "accomplishment and status" or how you think others perceive your accomplishment and status. Because the solutions to those are different.
You never answered me on the specific things from an upper-middle-class lifestyle you'd like to be spending money on but can't/aren't.
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Sounds like you won a Golden Globe but are disappointed that it wasn't an Oscar. I don't say this often, but a little therapy to unpack why you feel this way might help you shed this hair shirt you insist on wearing. Fact is, you WON! Sad that you aren't willing/able to allow yourself to enjoy it.
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What's bothering me is that I did not succeed in my professional goals. I could dream up titles for myself but I am not interested in that. Instead of using my natural skills, education, training, and abilities to achieve FIRE I mowed lawns, build houses, managed real estate, and created a portfolio of rental properties. Very grueling low brow work. Years of self-sacrifice and humble living. Not fun. Stressful, dangerous, and high risk. We are much better off now but I do not feel very accomplished or professionally satisfied. My callused hands are not the brand of intelligence or accomplishment. I did not exercise my higher functions to get here.
I came from a family of professionals who cherished their accomplishments. They were paid well to use their education to provide for a good living. I did things no one else wanted to do to make it to FIRE.
In your previous posts it has sounded like you are bothered by what others think (or what you think they might think) about you. Consider whether the problem is how you yourself perceive your "accomplishment and status" or how you think others perceive your accomplishment and status. Because the solutions to those are different.
You never answered me on the specific things from an upper-middle-class lifestyle you'd like to be spending money on but can't/aren't.
I am only concerned with what I think. It is my goal that I have failed and my standard that I did not achieve. I have provided for my family, and self, through manual labors and am thankful. I wish my support came through my career aspirations.
In answer to your question, it stinks to have to count every penny. It is not fun to be on a financial diet for so long. Debating with one's self over a $20 purchase is not comfortable. Professionals seem to buy whatever they want in an endless stream from Amazon. They drive new cars and take trips for fun. I travel to search for jobs. Many here are cutting back on consumption in order to create the surplus that is needed for investment. I don't have any specific examples of what I would like to have bought other than the peace that must come from not having to stress over ten dollars.
I don't have to worry about small change anymore and haven't for a long time but that mindset sticks with me still. People who are gainfully employed don't seem to worry much about where the next month's stipend is going to come from. I did not have a surplus to work with due to an underperforming career. My investment came from self-inflicted hardship and a meager existence during my 20's and 30's. I wish I had fun instead. I wish I had experienced what it must be like to have been gainfully employed instead.
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Sounds like you won a Golden Globe but are disappointed that it wasn't an Oscar. I don't say this often, but a little therapy to unpack why you feel this way might help you shed this hair shirt you insist on wearing. Fact is, you WON! Sad that you aren't willing/able to allow yourself to enjoy it.
I am thankful to have achieved FIRE but nothing will get my 20's and 30's back. No amount of self-indulgence would replace my dream. I was forced to achieve FIRE out a need to support myself. Life is easier these days but I wish I could achieve my professional goals.
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In answer to your question, it stinks to have to count every penny. It is not fun to be on a financial diet for so long. Debating with one's self over a $20 purchase is not comfortable. Professionals seem to buy whatever they want in an endless stream from Amazon. They drive new cars and take trips for fun. I travel to search for jobs. Many here are cutting back on consumption in order to create the surplus that is needed for investment. I don't have any specific examples of what I would like to have bought other than the peace that must come from not having to stress over ten dollars.
Wow, our brains are certainly wired differently (not that there is anything wrong with that). I COMPLETELY agree with your bolded sentences. But pursing FI is that reason I find I don't stress out at all about expenses, big or small anymore. When I was a broke grad student living stipend check to stipend check, I worried about how much each meal I ate cost and my car braking down could be a near financial disaster.
Now I have a sufficient financial cushion that if my car breaks, I have plenty of money to pay for it, and enough slack in my budget that if I wanted to spend $10 on, say, fancy take out coffee and a ham sandwich I certainly could.
If you are FI, you don't need to worry about the nickel and dime stuff at all. Do a regular check in (maybe once a month initially, later maybe once every 3-6) to make sure you're not living beyond your means, and if you are, make broad adjustments to your lifestyle (three biggest levers are housing, food, and transportation) so that you've got enough slack that $10 isn't going to stress you out.
... does the idea of an endless stream of amazon boxes itself make you happy? Is there anything in particular you'd like to order? Or is it just the not-worrying about money mindset that the boxes represent.
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In answer to your question, it stinks to have to count every penny. It is not fun to be on a financial diet for so long. Debating with one's self over a $20 purchase is not comfortable. Professionals seem to buy whatever they want in an endless stream from Amazon. They drive new cars and take trips for fun. I travel to search for jobs. Many here are cutting back on consumption in order to create the surplus that is needed for investment. I don't have any specific examples of what I would like to have bought other than the peace that must come from not having to stress over ten dollars.
Wow, our brains are certainly wired differently (not that there is anything wrong with that). I COMPLETELY agree with your bolded sentences. But pursing FI is that reason I find I don't stress out at all about expenses, big or small anymore. When I was a broke grad student living stipend check to stipend check, I worried about how much each meal I ate cost and my car braking down could be a near financial disaster.
Now I have a sufficient financial cushion that if my car breaks, I have plenty of money to pay for it, and enough slack in my budget that if I wanted to spend $10 on, say, fancy take out coffee and a ham sandwich I certainly could.
If you are FI, you don't need to worry about the nickel and dime stuff at all. Do a regular check in (maybe once a month initially, later maybe once every 3-6) to make sure you're not living beyond your means, and if you are, make broad adjustments to your lifestyle (three biggest levers are housing, food, and transportation) so that you've got enough slack that $10 isn't going to stress you out.
... does the idea of an endless stream of amazon boxes itself make you happy? Is there anything in particular you'd like to order? Or is it just the not-worrying about money mindset that the boxes represent.
I admire the relaxed financial attitude that professionals have. To be in a position where one does not feel the constant strain of worry about where next months funds will come must be something to experience. These days I am there in abundance however my financial support comes exclusively through my creations. Should they fail I have no fallback position. I do not have a valuable career to return to should my empire fall. No matter how affluent I become I can't imagine it releasing me from the worry that is so ingrained into my personality after decades of struggle to achieve FIRE.
The other day a client reported to me that the stock market is an excellent place to achieve FIRE if you have $100,000 per year of surplus income to devote to it. I have to agree, it was that kind of situation I was trying to reach as a professional pilot. Without a significant surplus, it takes risk, sweat, sacrifice, and an abundance of grotesque manual labors in real estate to reach FIRE. Not fun.
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Maybe you have lost the opportunity you will ever have to accomplish your professional dreams. You have enough money but will continue to agonize over every penny. You will be embarrassed whenever anyone asks about your work, even though you don't care what they think. Perhaps you will be unable to ever remove the sadness from your heart.
It sounds sort of miserable to me, the way you describe it. I wouldn't want to retire either if I felt like that!
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I can't tell what your true issue is, because you keep making arguments about things that are bad to experience (ex: stressing over every penny) but then saying you don't do that. I will join a couple other people in recommending therapy.
Like, if you're worried in advance about losing your current income because you have no other useful skills, then take the time now to learn some skills that can get you a boring desk job.
If assurances of financial stability don't do it, and you still just regret the past, that's therapy time.
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Maybe you have lost the opportunity you will ever have to accomplish your professional dreams. You have enough money but will continue to agonize over every penny. You will be embarrassed whenever anyone asks about your work, even though you don't care what they think. Perhaps you will be unable to ever remove the sadness from your heart.
It sounds sort of miserable to me, the way you describe it. I wouldn't want to retire either if I felt like that!
I agree.
I just arrived at a place in life where I am free to pursue my professional dreams and have returned to it in some capacity. It feels like I am just getting started yet the industry says otherwise. As a result of my age, I am sidelined from my goal and it is a crushing realization. I spent much of my youth effectively forcibly retired and I did not like it. I do not wish to buy an RV and ride off into the sunset. I do not wish to volunteer or take any more yoga classes. I am sick of hobbies to fill time.
I don't want to retire since it feels like I never was able to get started.
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Thanks MonkeyJenga, I think you've put your finger on why it felt like I wasn't making any progress here.
Skyhigh, it seems to me like you're shifting what you are unhappy about as people propose solutions to different apparent complaints. That's a pattern I've seen enough from people in my field to know it's a frequent phenotypic marker for depression. (They start from feeling unhappy and then try to identify potential causes for why they feel unhappy. If a particular cause turns out not to make sense or be easily addressable, they'll shift to something else, because after all, they really do genuinely feel extremely unhappy and down).
Obviously I'm not a therapist, and even if I was one I couldn't diagnosis someone over the internet. But it couldn't hurt to schedule a time to go in for a checkup (just like you probably stop by your regular physician every year or two to make sure everything is in working order), right?
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I can't tell what your true issue is, because you keep making arguments about things that are bad to experience (ex: stressing over every penny) but then saying you don't do that. I will join a couple other people in recommending therapy.
Like, if you're worried in advance about losing your current income because you have no other useful skills, then take the time now to learn some skills that can get you a boring desk job.
If assurances of financial stability don't do it, and you still just regret the past, that's therapy time.
I am trying to explain from different perspectives to different people. I am sure that it is confusing. I have a dream that will go unfulfilled. I chose to pursue FIRE and when it came time to go back to working on my goal it had dissipated. That's all.
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Thanks MonkeyJenga, I think you've put your finger on why it felt like I wasn't making any progress here.
Skyhigh, it seems to me like you're shifting what you are unhappy about as people propose solutions to different apparent complaints. That's a pattern I've seen enough from people in my field to know it's a frequent phenotypic marker for depression. (They start from feeling unhappy and then try to identify potential causes for why they feel unhappy. If a particular cause turns out not to make sense or be easily addressable, they'll shift to something else, because after all, they really do genuinely feel extremely unhappy and down).
Obviously I'm not a therapist, and even if I was one I couldn't diagnosis someone over the internet. But it couldn't hurt to schedule a time to go in for a checkup (just like you probably stop by your regular physician every year or two to make sure everything is in working order), right?
Thank you for your input. It is wise to consider issues from many different perspectives. It is also possible that I have a perspective that many here have not experienced. I had not received a paycheck from an employer for nearly 16 years before I
was able to return to my chosen profession. My peer group is also largely financially independent. They have experienced hardships to the lifestyle as well. I have some considerable experience with FIRE. It is possible that some here are placing a lot of faith into this outcome and have not completely considered the ramifications of it.
Take as an example the fate of lottery winners. A year later they are often less happy as the result of their new lifestyle. Because I am expressing some dissatisfaction with my situation does not necessarily mean that I am depressed. Perhaps I have some genuine issues that others here may encounter? Maybe my experience should be considered? What if my position needs to be seen as false and a reason needs to be created?
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Thanks MonkeyJenga, I think you've put your finger on why it felt like I wasn't making any progress here.
Skyhigh, it seems to me like you're shifting what you are unhappy about as people propose solutions to different apparent complaints. That's a pattern I've seen enough from people in my field to know it's a frequent phenotypic marker for depression. (They start from feeling unhappy and then try to identify potential causes for why they feel unhappy. If a particular cause turns out not to make sense or be easily addressable, they'll shift to something else, because after all, they really do genuinely feel extremely unhappy and down).
Obviously I'm not a therapist, and even if I was one I couldn't diagnosis someone over the internet. But it couldn't hurt to schedule a time to go in for a checkup (just like you probably stop by your regular physician every year or two to make sure everything is in working order), right?
....
Because I am expressing some dissatisfaction with my situation does not necessarily mean that I am depressed. Perhaps I have some genuine issues that others here may encounter? Maybe my experience should be considered? What if my position needs to be seen as false and a reason needs to be created?
I dislike that you are misrepresenting my statement. Note that 1) I did not state you were depressed 2) the reason I suggested that you should consider that you may be depressed was not that you were expressing some dissatisfaction with your life but because you constantly shift your explanation for being unhappy whenever anyone proposes a way to address one of the several issues you have stated in different posts to be the reason you are unhappy and dismissed any and all suggestions for how you might improve either your situation or state of mind.
I also dislike that you present depression as being mutually exclusive with facing genuine issues. Many depressed people also face significant challenges in life. You don't get to hand wave away all those other challenges just because they are also depressed.
But anyway, in the context of our discussion the latter is a side issue.
1) If you want to continue to be unhappy and unsatisfied with your life, keep doing what you are doing.
2) If you don't, I propose you devise some approaches to try to change your life (you have a range of suggestions from this thread, but obviously you know your situation best so maybe you can think of something even more effective).
3) If you won't do anything to try to be happy/satisfied again because you feel powerless and hopeless and that no change you make is ever going to lead to you feeling happy/satisfied again, yes that would be quite consistent with depression.
Those are basically the three options any of us face when we feel the way that you sound like you do. FIRE or no FIRE.
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For the sake of politeness I haven't said it but - troll post.
Yep. Troll.
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Sounds like you won a Golden Globe but are disappointed that it wasn't an Oscar. I don't say this often, but a little therapy to unpack why you feel this way might help you shed this hair shirt you insist on wearing. Fact is, you WON! Sad that you aren't willing/able to allow yourself to enjoy it.
I am thankful to have achieved FIRE but nothing will get my 20's and 30's back. No amount of self-indulgence would replace my dream. I was forced to achieve FIRE out a need to support myself. Life is easier these days but I wish I could achieve my professional goals.
Dude, seriously, nobody gets their 20's and 30's back! And most people never hit FIRE, either. I feel sorry that you are unwilling and unable to see how blessed you are. Careers and professions are always changing. You simply weren't born at the right time to achieve your dream. Yet, you achieved success anyway. Why you sneer at it is the real question, one that only you can answer.
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It took some digging to find this story, but I have always loved it. I had never even seen the movie when I read this in Guideposts magazine years ago, but it stuck with me. It didn't turn up in a google search just now, but I finally found it on the Guideposts website.
https://www.guideposts.org/better-living/life-advice/finding-life-purpose/a-christmas-house
@Skyhigh, I'd suggest you read the shit out of this story. And then thank your lucky stars for what you've been able to do for yourself.
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What llhamo said.
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I know someone that’s 80 and still flying to help Pilots and Paws. Says it’s one of the most rewarding things he has ever done. You are choosing to wallow. Life could be much worse.
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@Skyhigh - I think you've received some great comments, thoughts, and toughlove in this thread. But I'm curious: What motivated you to start this thread in the first place? What are you hoping to gain from the discussion?
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The OPs postings are fake and unconvincing and the facts don't even make sense.
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I kinda suspect that OP heard about early retirement somewhere and wanted to go warn people that they'd be sorry if they did it, without really knowing what we're about here, and then he got unexpectedly interested in how we responded. It doesn't entirely fit my definition of trolling, but it possibly it was not entirely straight either. The story did shift oddly as the thread went on.
God help us though, imagine living with that internalized contempt for nonprofessional work -- having put in all that effort and deployed all that skill and intelligence, and then to be ashamed of it! And to really think that the whole world would have the same contempt: that's sad. That part rang true.
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I don't think he is trolling. He has a fairly long history of posting. I suspect @maizeman is correct.
I read some past posts because I initially wondered if he were trolling, and he's often been a bit brooding. Maybe these recent posts are a manifestation of depression.
I feel really sad for him that he seems stuck and unable to enjoy life because of what in many respects is a problem of privilege.
@Skyhigh : Please seriously consider therapy. I don't say that to be mean. I've been to therapy before. It may be what you need to find meaning in your life. None of us achieve all of our dreams, but we still manage to find happiness. Best of luck.
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Thank you for sharing SkyHigh, I can identify with this. My family is not at fire yet but it is kind of just a matter of time. We are close enough that I am starting to think of the purpose to which I am retiring. I can see how it would be difficult. I will certainly need to have some type of business or part-time job on the go to feel fulfilled.
If I understand your dilemna, you cannot find your desired job in the airline industry due to age. I think you have to accept it and find a different outlet. Surely there is some other career that you can break into and if not, is there not some type of business that would scratch the itch? Would you consider going back to school for some different career option?
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Maybe you have lost the opportunity you will ever have to accomplish your professional dreams. You have enough money but will continue to agonize over every penny. You will be embarrassed whenever anyone asks about your work, even though you don't care what they think. Perhaps you will be unable to ever remove the sadness from your heart.
It sounds sort of miserable to me, the way you describe it. I wouldn't want to retire either if I felt like that!
I agree.
I just arrived at a place in life where I am free to pursue my professional dreams and have returned to it in some capacity. It feels like I am just getting started yet the industry says otherwise. As a result of my age, I am sidelined from my goal and it is a crushing realization. I spent much of my youth effectively forcibly retired and I did not like it. I do not wish to buy an RV and ride off into the sunset. I do not wish to volunteer or take any more yoga classes. I am sick of hobbies to fill time.
I don't want to retire since it feels like I never was able to get started.
It sounds like you felt bad during much of your youth (your 20s and 30s), and now that the youth period has gone, you still feel bad. You have clearly stated you didn't get your chosen career and won't ever get it. So now you feel bad again!
Other people keep offering suggestions as to how to stop feeling bad, but you keep shutting down each suggestion, or ignoring them and repeating your earlier desolate statements. Does it seem to you that people just aren't believing your experience?
It sounds like people are assuming that you are in search of solutions, but you sound like you just want someone to hear how horribly disappointing an experience it has been to not achieve your professional desires. Is that what you're after?
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This is one of the saddest threads i have read ....I feel so sad after reading it....it reminds me of one of my favourite books..
-Remains of the Day by K.Ishiguro
To the OP; i just want to say i kinda understand what you are trying to get across; i was kinda forced to be a stay at home mum after having trained half my life in a profession..i never got back to it...worse..i got trapped wiping poos, talking baby talk, school home work, endless driving ..
Sure, i did not get my high monies i would have gotten if i had pursued my career but i went on to replace it with other ventures...in the end , it was a better outcome..my friends went on to have career burnouts..
But, i think one should always look forward , not look back...as the grass is always greener on the other side...focus on your achievements ...and not What would have been...
wow! You sound so melancholy that i feel so down after reading your posts...got to ask, are you affecting people around you? Your family?
Maybe see a counsellor ?
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I think that FIRE means more after one has experienced the accomplishments that come from a career. I never was able to experience my professional objective and am not super excited about more days off. I have a peer in a similar position. His career dreams were a flop but at a young age he was able to become very wealthy through a, not so exciting, means. Now he is retired at 34 and is sad.
FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to quit but does not replace the satisfaction that can come from a meaningful career.
I don’t want to retire. I want to achieve my professional goals and work until they push me out.
I have spent enough days volunteering, taking classes, joining clubs, gardening, biking, taking walks,,,, etc. Done with the retired life.
SKyhigh
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I think that FIRE means more after one has experienced the accomplishments that come from a career. I never was able to experience my professional objective and am not super excited about more days off. I have a peer in a similar position. His career dreams were a flop but at a young age he was able to become very wealthy through a, not so exciting, means. Now he is retired at 34 and is sad.
FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to quit but does not replace the satisfaction that can come from a meaningful career.
I don’t want to retire. I want to achieve my professional goals and work until they push me out.
I have spent enough days volunteering, taking classes, joining clubs, gardening, biking, taking walks,,,, etc. Done with the retired life.
SKyhigh
Cool... no one is stopping you.
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I think someone mentioned it up the thread, but can't you just work your way down the airline career ladder (international>domestic>regional>local>cropduster>flight trainer) until you land a job? Why does it have to be a commercial pilot with a major airline? How about starting your own flight service? Since you are familiar with Alaska, that can be a great place to do it, if you aren't scared by the mountains and tricky weather.
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Sounds like you're ready to work with all the force that is in you. Good! Go get 'em, Skyhigh!
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Skyhigh,
Why are you reviving a long-dormant thread? People here want you to succeed and be happy. They provided a lot of good advice and suggestions. Have you followed up and tried anything anyone suggested? If so, tell us about what worked (or what didn't) so people can try and resolve real problems.
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I can relate to OP. I have a low level FI and am underemployed. I have a gap in my resume due to caring for family and it is unclear whether I will ever be given the chance to return. Even given the chance, there are five years of grueling exams before I have work life balance again. Then, while I will have money and prestige, I fear I will face the same view of corporate drudgery as livingafi. Will this career provide mental stimulation and meaning or will it just be crunching numbers for a large firm?
I am old enough to consider retirement but it sounds boring. I don't have MMM's construction skills or his writing skills. I think I would make a terrible entrepreneur. Most businesses fail. I ran the idea of ER by family tonight and they were shocked and opposed. "Work keeps you young" said a self employed lawyer who has as much vacation time and mental stimulation as he wants. I didnt laugh but I did think this point of view was myopic at best. They gave several examples of people working until 80, which to me suggests poor financial planning rather than deep fulfilment from work. One person had a federal job where he definitely worked less than 24 hours, probably 16 for full pay.
To those who diagnose depression, I concur. I am on medication and some days are more hopeful than others. I said I can remain underemployed for at least 5 more years, which is enough time to find reasons for retirement. I am aware that I am lucky to have the option of twiddling my thumbs, watching TV, exercising 3 hours a day, and playing games. I think OP and I share fantasy goals of prestige, money, meaning, mental stimulation, and work life balance.
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^The 5 goals in the last sentence may be difficult to achieve all at once, but one or more of them is almost certainly achievable. From a practical action perspective, I urge you to pick the one that means the most to you and take actions to achieve it.
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I wonder if you are missing youth as much as you are missing work.
Anyway, what I would suggest if you want challenge is to go work in a high school in credit recovery or similar.
That's challenge.
One of our acquaintances is flying for Delta and started there a few years ago. He has to be at least 50. He's also bright, extremely detailed and energetic. He's not sad. If you are going to your job fairs sad, I don't think that airlines are looking for depressed pilots. Also note that his training/onboarding schedule was brutal.
Hope you get out of your slump soon.
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This is truly a depressing thread and it boggles my mind how OP could be blaming FIRE for anything. FIRE isn't what caused him to fail to achieve professional success, but there is some story he is telling himself that it somehow was. FIRE doesn't prevent someone from pursuing meaning and accomplishment, but he keeps repeating that he just can't possibly ski or hike or play another day because he is so tired of it, telling himself a story that those are the only things one can do when FIREd. He tells himself that he would be happy only if he had achieved his professional dream, which is not to be a pilot or to fly a certain plane or anything like that, but to get a very specific type of accolade, apparently, that only a very small percentage of certain types of pilots get. He's telling himself a story of why he isn't happy now that actually prevents him from ever having a chance to be happy in the future.
Here's something from a voice of experience that is not about all the other things you could do to be happy. I will say all of those suggestions in this thread are great and valid suggestions and you should look into them, but what is needed first is for you to change the stories you are always telling yourself. I know how true those stories feel to you. I did say I'm a voice of experience! I know how it feels to think about how fake "changing the story" sounds. The story, you say, is just the truth! I'm not gonna buy into some lie to make myself feel better. I'm not into creating some rosy narrative about what really happened just because I'm unwilling to face the ugly truth about my ugly, ugly life! I may be unhappy, but I'm at least not going to lie to myself about why!
I remember feeling that way. And I remember finally finding a therapist that helped me learn through some very hard work that the stories we tell ourselves aren't "true" and I was clinging to just one version of one narrative that was particularly unhelpful and unhealthy for me. I learned (and am still learning) how to not get attached to "stories". Some are great, some are bad, but they are all just stories, just one interpretation of a set of events that have a lot of other interpretations. You will never be happy, no matter what you do, until you can resolve the story you tell yourself about your past.
As I was approaching FIRE, I went back to that therapist. I was so happy and excited, but I also foresaw some pitfalls. That I could get caught up in missing the prestige of my career, the titles, the accolades. That I would find it hard to have a good answer for the question of "what do you do?" I asked her to be my life coach for 6 sessions where we could work on those pitfalls I foresaw and how I could adjust my brain to not be derailed from the honestly good stuff I am doing because I am not getting the prestige. She helped me focus on my real values and how to stay aligned with those values and not get sidetracked by what society tells us we *should* want (like prestige! And c'mon, is that really your highest value??). And those 6 sessions were money well-fucking-spent. I still stop sometimes and examine the different stories I do tell and could tell about my life. Sometimes it depends on my mood which one I tell in a given moment. But the best part is, I have this superpower now where I learned I'm responsible for the story I tell about the facts of my life.
Several people here have shown you alternate stories to tell about the facts you have shared. You aren't buying it, which I get. I remember feeling that way. But seriously, dude, you will never be happy until you learn a different story of your life. And which do you want more? To stick to that story, telling it to yourself day in and day out as a form of punishment for your not being clairvoyant 30 years ago or being born in the wrong year? Or do you want to try to be happy? Because you can't do both.
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Hello everyone,
The above post is rather obvious, coming from a dude who just joined a few days ago and who has left similarly spammy messages on other threads. Mods notified.
Kind regards,
Dicey
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Hello everyone,
The above post is rather obvious, coming from a dude who just joined a few days ago and who has left similarly spammy messages on other threads. Mods notified.
Kind regards,
Dicey
It looks like the mods have worked their magic.