Author Topic: How to SWAMI  (Read 13507 times)

MoneyTree

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How to SWAMI
« on: July 01, 2021, 10:58:19 AM »
Hey all, we hit our 25x expenses number earlier this year, and was looking to join the RE crowd sometime this year.

But things at work have been going pretty well. I like my work (although deadlines are sometimes stressful) and with some permanent changes in my company WFH policy, looks like I'll be able to get away with only going into the office 2-3 times a week. They also keep giving me raises and stock options.

So this has me seriously considering the SWAMI (Still Working Advanced Mustachian Individual) route.

For those of you who are FI but still working, how do you optimize your work / life balance so that work remains enjoyable and fulfilling, while taking full advantage of the fact that you don't need to work anymore and have a firehose of excess income?

Take more time off? Ask for certain perks? Even more WFH days? Are there any quality of life improvements that would be worth spending on?

Curious to glean learnings and wisdom from those who have taken this route.

lutorm

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2021, 01:22:24 PM »
I'm pretty much in this place, and I went down to half time. When I asked, my manager said "I've never heard anyone do that, I need to talk to HR", so it's definitely not common, but if you are a valuable employee they're likely to be flexible. I did take a 50% pay cut, of course, but if you're FI, who cares. The objective at that point is to make the job as enjoyable as possible.

Freedomin5

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2021, 04:05:56 PM »
Just a small correction: SWAMI stands for Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual


For me, I switched to a lower paying, less stressful job with better work-life balance (shorter work hours, longer vacations). I don’t stress about saying no to projects I don’t want to get involved in. I don’t worry about climbing the corporate ladder or going above and beyond. I speak up when I see something wrong without worrying about losing my job. We also became a one-income family, and DH is studying for a masters degree. There is a lot more freedom when you’re FI.

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2021, 10:38:12 PM »
Just a small correction: SWAMI stands for Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual


For me, I switched to a lower paying, less stressful job with better work-life balance (shorter work hours, longer vacations). I don’t stress about saying no to projects I don’t want to get involved in. I don’t worry about climbing the corporate ladder or going above and beyond. I speak up when I see something wrong without worrying about losing my job. We also became a one-income family, and DH is studying for a masters degree. There is a lot more freedom when you’re FI.

I did the same thing.  I had reasons to be extremely conservative with my withdrawal rate, so after I hit 25x I worked a while longer.  Like @Freedomin5 I moved to a lower stress position and I did a DIY part-time thing by using my hundreds of hours of PTO.  My partner went to 32 hours a week and asked for (and got) a role with zero leadership or management resposibilities.  She took Fridays off, while I just worked until I was finished with enough of my work that I felt like I could go home.  Usually that was after working 6 hours, but sometimes it was longer.  We did that for about 2 years and then quit.  Those 2 years were the best of my career.

MoneyTree

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2021, 11:02:08 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.

Im all for giving up management responsibilities in exchange for lower salary, but I am wary of any formal part-time position. It just seems like a way to get nearly the same amount of work out of me for less pay.

Sure, I could say no to anything that would put me over the part time hours, but having to say no all the time and explain my part time status to co-workers doesn’t sound like fun either.

Freedomin5

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2021, 03:51:32 AM »
That’s why I didn’t go part-time. I just took a job with fewer responsibilities. One where I could just leave my work at work at a company where people left work on time and didn’t expect you to work more hours than you were contracted to work.

Metalcat

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2021, 05:43:14 AM »
Thanks for the feedback.

Im all for giving up management responsibilities in exchange for lower salary, but I am wary of any formal part-time position. It just seems like a way to get nearly the same amount of work out of me for less pay.

Sure, I could say no to anything that would put me over the part time hours, but having to say no all the time and explain my part time status to co-workers doesn’t sound like fun either.

What is best for you to do will entirely depend on what's best for you to do.

However, working on your own terms requires getting really good with asserting boundaries. Which if you aren't comfortable with idea of asserting part time boundaries, is perhaps something worth investing in learning.

The work world is not going to make SWAMI easy for you, which is why there's no obvious, clear way to do it. There's just you learning NOT to do the things that don't add value to your life.

It may result in a pay cut, it may ironically make you much more successful. But there's no "take a pay cut for a less stressful job and life will be happy" kind of job. Taking a pay cut doesn't necessarily lead to a less stressful job. It could, or it could not, it will entirely depend on you.

That's my entire point, what stresses you depends on you. I happen to do really well with pressure, but only real pressure, not made up useless pressure. Meaning, I enjoy pressure of an incredibly difficult task that requires me to push myself and my abilities and where failure is a real possibility. I enjoy that, it energized me.

I can't stand bullshit pressure of the organizational kind where why I'm being pressured doesn't even make sense to me. Like if there's bad management that likes to squeeze and terrorize instead of actually managing competently.

So for me, taking a pay cut would actually be the worst option, because the lower the rung, the more I'm likely to encounter more management bullshit. I'm much better off taking a higher level, high pressure role, but on a part time basis, and asserting my boundaries effectively, so that I'm balls to the wall when I'm on duty and am totally tuned out when I'm not.

That's me though. Part of this process is figuring out what will work for you. That's the whole point.

FLBiker

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2021, 06:21:34 AM »
This is my plan as well.  We hit our 25x number last year.  I'm still working full-time because we also moved to Canada from the US last year, and I want to make sure our expenses are comparable (it seems like they are).  And my employer just engaged a PEO so they could employ me legally, with benefits, in Canada, and I told them I'd stay a year if they did that (which takes me to summer 2022).  I work fully from home, which is great.  I took this position specifically because it would enable us to move where we wanted (namely small-town Nova Scotia).  And I have a lot of gratitude to my (American) employers for making this work.

At the same time, DW is working part-time, and it's looking like she'll get another part-time job (for a total of two) for the fall.  She absolutely doesn't have to, but she wants to.  Both of us want to continue working in some form or another while our daughter is in school (since we want the stability of staying put most of the year) and our daughter is just finishing kindergarten.  I think we both like the mental stimulation and sense of accomplishment, plus having some professional relationships and interactions.  I tend to get kind of depressed and isolated with large swaths of unstructured free-time.

Still, it's clear that me working full-time is not remotely necessary.

Thus, come next summer, my plan is to ask to go down to .75 (or even .5 -- it depends a bit on what would happen with my benefits and how much I value them).  I'm open to doing this by working fewer days per week OR by getting additional weeks off per year.  I don't have a strong preference.  We don't have a culture of doing this, however during COVID a bunch of people were furloughed at 50% where they were one week on, one week off and I will certainly cite that as a potential model.  And if push comes to shove, I'm also open to switching to a different kind of work.  I keep thinking about becoming a financial planner -- as a US Citizen in Canada, I've learned a lot about crossborder stuff.  Plus, investing here tends to be bank-driven with high fees, and I think there's some real space for low fee, advice only planning.  At the same time, I hate sales, so I don't know that I'm cut out for something like that.  I was a teacher before, so I've thought about doing more "financial education" but I have no idea what the market is.  Realistically, it's hard for me to imagine an easier path to moderately lucrative and satisfying part-time work than just cutting my current job in half.  So if my employer is game, that's my plan.  If not, I'll do something else.

And I also think going to half-time would help me build some non-work hobbies and relationships, to make the ultimate transition to 0 work easier.

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2021, 10:01:51 AM »
After 8.5 years of FIRE, I was offered a part time opportunity last month.  Work from home, set my own hours, time off whenever I want it, potential to earn over 100k.  It took up too much time at first.  I had to relearn time management skills.  And I had to set clear boundaries. 

I now schedule 1-5PM for Google Meet sessions with candidates.  I take every Friday off and every other Monday off.  26 three day weekends a year, 26 four day weekends.  And I had a light schedule this Thursday so on a whim I made it a five day weekend by blocking Thursday out.  With some occasional email duties in the morning, this gets me down to just under 20 hours a week.

I expect to close on my first commissions in the next week or so.  I'll do this until it isn't fun anymore.  Then I will put in my notice without remorse.

But setting boundaries, especially with my schedule, was super important to making this work for me.  I think that is the key skill.

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2021, 10:40:11 AM »
Loving this discussion!

Since more than one commenter remarked on setting boundaries, here are book ideas you could use to study boundary setting templates. Reading book/listening audiobook/skimming summary of book is a good way to develop a boundary setting plan. Maybe it will change your life, allow you to really harvest the benefit of your FI status.

"Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When the Stakes Are High", by four people

"Getting to Yes", by Roger Fisher, William L. Ury and Bruce Patton

Both are a little old, but since they're about human interaction, the subject is timeless and the techniques inherently applicable. Both emphasize how to plan and structure key negotiations to satisfy all parties, so they're not about hardball tactics or manipulation, they're  step by step how to manuals on arranging (negotiating) key relationships so they legitimately meet your needs and the other person's. Lots of how discern needs accurately, generate a process of info exchange that is trustable, and concrete steps to move toward agreement with minimal conflict and maximum satisfaction.

Caveat: I have read Getting to Yes, and can attest it fits the description above. I have only read about Crucial Conversations, but it sounds similar, is often recommended, and is a little newer.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 10:42:53 AM by BicycleB »

SpareChange

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2021, 11:50:31 AM »
I I work in a 24/7 operation, where you just need to have the requisite state license. I need to be in a certain place, from time x to time y. Other than that, we're essentially plug-n-play. We trade shifts with each other very frequently, and I'm lucky in the extent to which that kind of flexibility is common in my occupation. In my case I dropped to half-time, one week on/one off. So, I work a 5 day/40 hr week, then have 9 days off. I will work extra when there's a high shift differential involved, or just to be a team player. I do have benefits, and I earn 12% pto with 60 days banked. How this all manifests really differs by employer and industry of course, which makes it interesting to see how others make it work. For example, no way I could do WFH, unfortunately.

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2021, 12:31:26 PM »
When we hit FI I gave up on the career advancement track and shifted to a job which I knew I could do well and that I find very rewarding. This was managing a small team in an area which fits well with my personal skill set. I also set very firm work life boundaries and changed from working all hours to never working late or in the weekends (with very occasional exceptions).

The job is not stressful at all and I find it very rewarding since it is focused on sorting out social issues, and I enjoy building a team and helping people get started in their career.

This has led to some frustrating conversations with my (large government sector) employer who just isn’t set up for people who want to perform well, but don’t want ever increasing responsibilities, or much professional growth.


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lutorm

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2021, 02:03:06 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.

Im all for giving up management responsibilities in exchange for lower salary, but I am wary of any formal part-time position. It just seems like a way to get nearly the same amount of work out of me for less pay.

Sure, I could say no to anything that would put me over the part time hours, but having to say no all the time and explain my part time status to co-workers doesn’t sound like fun either.
I don't say no to work, I just tell people when it's likely to get done. It has really not been an issue so far but, like Malcat says, being comfortable stating expectations, defending boundaries, and saying no if necessary, is really essential if you're going to have any semblance of work-life balance (unless maybe you go the other route of just plain sucking at work so no one has any expectations of you and then waiting to get fired, but that sounds worse to me,)

Metalcat

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2021, 02:11:31 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.

Im all for giving up management responsibilities in exchange for lower salary, but I am wary of any formal part-time position. It just seems like a way to get nearly the same amount of work out of me for less pay.

Sure, I could say no to anything that would put me over the part time hours, but having to say no all the time and explain my part time status to co-workers doesn’t sound like fun either.
I don't say no to work, I just tell people when it's likely to get done. It has really not been an issue so far but, like Malcat says, being comfortable stating expectations, defending boundaries, and saying no if necessary, is really essential if you're going to have any semblance of work-life balance (unless maybe you go the other route of just plain sucking at work so no one has any expectations of you and then waiting to get fired, but that sounds worse to me,)

Exactly. It's also not like working full time hours magically makes you able to do all work on the timeline that people want. Whether you work 10 hours a week or 60 hours a week, you still need to be comfortable setting expectations and maintaining boundaries.

Working full time doesn't remove that need, so working part time doesn't create it either.

FLBiker

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2021, 12:38:09 PM »
I'm switching to working for my current employer through a PEO (professional employment organization) which enables my employer (in the US) to employ me legally, with benefits, in Canada.  As I think I mentioned, I really appreciate them doing this, so I'm planning to give them a year, and then ask to downshift next summer.  I just got my group benefits information, and I noticed that I should be benefits eligible as long as I'm half-time or more, so that's pretty cool.

I still don't know what the response to my request will be, but I suspect it might work.  It will be an adjustment, though, as (as far as I know) I'm the only person in the company to do something like this.  Personally, I'm leaning towards a "more days fully off" model than a "shorter days" model but I'm willing to flexible as we get it figured out.  I'm also certainly willing to discuss changes to my role to make it fit better into a part-time framework.

And, if push comes to shove, I can always just quit. :)

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2021, 03:26:20 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.

Im all for giving up management responsibilities in exchange for lower salary, but I am wary of any formal part-time position. It just seems like a way to get nearly the same amount of work out of me for less pay.

Sure, I could say no to anything that would put me over the part time hours, but having to say no all the time and explain my part time status to co-workers doesn’t sound like fun either.
I don't say no to work, I just tell people when it's likely to get done. It has really not been an issue so far but, like Malcat says, being comfortable stating expectations, defending boundaries, and saying no if necessary, is really essential if you're going to have any semblance of work-life balance (unless maybe you go the other route of just plain sucking at work so no one has any expectations of you and then waiting to get fired, but that sounds worse to me,)

Exactly. It's also not like working full time hours magically makes you able to do all work on the timeline that people want. Whether you work 10 hours a week or 60 hours a week, you still need to be comfortable setting expectations and maintaining boundaries.

Working full time doesn't remove that need, so working part time doesn't create it either.


This is very true, regardless of the number of hours you work there will always be people in the workplace who want more.

When I’m setting things up I’m always respectful of peoples work / life arrangements and help them manage the work around this. I wish others would do the same, they seem to get upset when I say something along the lines of - sorry I don’t work on that afternoon each week and I’ll be picking up my kids and not at your meeting.


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leevs11

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2024, 03:46:36 PM »
Hey all, we hit our 25x expenses number earlier this year, and was looking to join the RE crowd sometime this year.

But things at work have been going pretty well. I like my work (although deadlines are sometimes stressful) and with some permanent changes in my company WFH policy, looks like I'll be able to get away with only going into the office 2-3 times a week. They also keep giving me raises and stock options.

So this has me seriously considering the SWAMI (Still Working Advanced Mustachian Individual) route.

For those of you who are FI but still working, how do you optimize your work / life balance so that work remains enjoyable and fulfilling, while taking full advantage of the fact that you don't need to work anymore and have a firehose of excess income?

Take more time off? Ask for certain perks? Even more WFH days? Are there any quality of life improvements that would be worth spending on?

Curious to glean learnings and wisdom from those who have taken this route.

3 Years later.. how did it go?

MoneyTree

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2024, 04:49:21 PM »
wow, didn't think this thread would ever resurface. Ok, I'll play.

I am still at the same company as back then, but I have transitioned into a fully remote role, and it is better than I could have imagined. Actually retiring enters my mind every now and then, but I have a pretty sweet setup and not having to worry about surprise expenses and keeping our work sponsored health insurance has been a great peace of mind.

I've been able to carve out a largely self-directed role at my company. I still have deliverables and programs that I have to upkeep, but I've spent a lot of my time setting up systems to make my work more efficient and I've found a lot of enjoyment in how I can build those systems that automate and templatize my work. There is the old adage of "Work ON your business, not IN it." I've applied that towards the work I have at my job.

The flexibility to be at home and say no thank you to work that I don't really want to do is amazing. I don't have to volunteer for high visibility projects. I don't have to jump at great opportunities to make a name for myself and push my career forward. I just direct my attention towards how I can consistently, repeatedly, sustainably deliver good enough results.

The pay raises have kept coming, although they have slowed considerably. It seems that at this point in my career, more of my compensation gets diverted into stock instead of salary. I don't really mind, because we really don't even need a dollar of my salary to maintain our lifestyle.

I have tried to be a little more willing to spend, but that has been a psychological battle. Its hard to just start spending when I have a lifetime of habituation towards saving and being frugal and cheap. I've been trying to filter our purchases through the lens of whether it makes life for myself and my family better versus just wanting something for the sake of wanting something. I've been making some progress in the area of spending more, but I recognize that I have a ways to go. Spending more is not in itself a virtue, but frugality when it no longer enriches our lives is not a good thing either.

That about sums it up!

leevs11

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2024, 09:07:15 AM »
wow, didn't think this thread would ever resurface. Ok, I'll play.

I am still at the same company as back then, but I have transitioned into a fully remote role, and it is better than I could have imagined. Actually retiring enters my mind every now and then, but I have a pretty sweet setup and not having to worry about surprise expenses and keeping our work sponsored health insurance has been a great peace of mind.

I've been able to carve out a largely self-directed role at my company. I still have deliverables and programs that I have to upkeep, but I've spent a lot of my time setting up systems to make my work more efficient and I've found a lot of enjoyment in how I can build those systems that automate and templatize my work. There is the old adage of "Work ON your business, not IN it." I've applied that towards the work I have at my job.

The flexibility to be at home and say no thank you to work that I don't really want to do is amazing. I don't have to volunteer for high visibility projects. I don't have to jump at great opportunities to make a name for myself and push my career forward. I just direct my attention towards how I can consistently, repeatedly, sustainably deliver good enough results.

The pay raises have kept coming, although they have slowed considerably. It seems that at this point in my career, more of my compensation gets diverted into stock instead of salary. I don't really mind, because we really don't even need a dollar of my salary to maintain our lifestyle.

I have tried to be a little more willing to spend, but that has been a psychological battle. Its hard to just start spending when I have a lifetime of habituation towards saving and being frugal and cheap. I've been trying to filter our purchases through the lens of whether it makes life for myself and my family better versus just wanting something for the sake of wanting something. I've been making some progress in the area of spending more, but I recognize that I have a ways to go. Spending more is not in itself a virtue, but frugality when it no longer enriches our lives is not a good thing either.

That about sums it up!

How far beyond your 25x number are you now? What kind of work do you do? Are you bored with it?

I find myself in somewhat of the same situation. I hit 25x this year and am still working. The job is fully remote, fairly easy and I have automated a lot of my work too. That said, I find it incredibly boring and spend a lot of time on zoom calls. Despite making plenty of additional income and having lots of free time to travel & do other things I get restless with it. I know it makes sense to stick around while it's this easy, but just find myself bored out of my mind.

Any ideas on how to make it more interesting or enjoyable? Is it a work thing or should I be spending more on fun things to offset some of this boredom? Or should I just retire?

I think the main problem with just retiring is that I don't really have a good idea of what I'd like to do with my time instead.

Thanks again for replying. I think it's interesting to hear from someone who posted about this years ago.

Ron Scott

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2024, 03:23:18 PM »
There’s another option for work-life balance—an acquired taste and certainly not for everyone: Work Hard, Play Hard.

I did this for 30 years and finally retired.

60 hour work weeks—with 5-6 hours on weekends. Taxis to my daughter’s tennis matches. 30% business travel flying on your own time. Several international family vacations a year where I left early. “On” 100% at work and 100% with family/friends. And so on.

Let me tell you: This is very doable without going nuts—you just have to have a balls-to-the-wall attitude. Never slip into a “poor me” state. And you can’t worry or stress over things. When the shit hits the fan you act on intellect reflexively and solve problems others wring their hands over. You gotta be a diehard doer. It’s not a bad life at all—in fact it can be exciting.

In retirement I tripled my bike riding, got into DIY gardening/cars stuff, and I now split the households pretty much 5050. And so far so good…

So far I don’t think that lifestyle affected my health. I could be wrong…

MoneyTree

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2024, 05:43:05 PM »
How far beyond your 25x number are you now? What kind of work do you do? Are you bored with it?

I find myself in somewhat of the same situation. I hit 25x this year and am still working. The job is fully remote, fairly easy and I have automated a lot of my work too. That said, I find it incredibly boring and spend a lot of time on zoom calls. Despite making plenty of additional income and having lots of free time to travel & do other things I get restless with it. I know it makes sense to stick around while it's this easy, but just find myself bored out of my mind.

Any ideas on how to make it more interesting or enjoyable? Is it a work thing or should I be spending more on fun things to offset some of this boredom? Or should I just retire?

I think the main problem with just retiring is that I don't really have a good idea of what I'd like to do with my time instead.

Thanks again for replying. I think it's interesting to hear from someone who posted about this years ago.

I had another kid, so our expenses definitely increased, but currently we are about 28x annual expenses as far as I can tell.

I would definitely recommend finding something else outside of work you can apply yourself towards. Some project or interest you can devote the time and attention you otherwise would have put towards work.

I don't have too many zoom calls, I try to decline those as much as I can without being a jerk about it. So that leaves the majority of each day free for me to do what I want, where I am not thinking about work or doing work for my job. As long as I keep on delivering what I need to, that is enough for me, and as long as it is enough for my bosses, everyone is happy.

FLBiker

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2024, 07:32:50 AM »
I'm glad this thread resurfaced.  We've recently hit our 25x number.  Initially, I was thinking that I'd switch to part-time at that point (to ease into retirement), but the reality is that my job already IS basically part-time (in terms of the work it requires) so it's been hard for me to justify taking the pay cut.  Here's why SWAMI works for me (for now).

1. WFH - I switched to a fully remote position in October 2019 to enable us to move from Florida to rural-ish Nova Scotia.  I had to make an effort once we moved to meet people, and I still don't have a robust local friend network, but that's kind of my nature anyways.  In terms of work, though, I absolutely love being fully remote, and I love where we live.  It would be impossible for me to find a comparable job locally.  For one thing, there aren't a lot of IT BA / PM roles locally, and for another local salaries are significantly lower.  I have to travel occasionally for work (2-3 times per year, for ~a week each time) but that's fine.  It's fully expensed, and no one gives me a hard time about the fact that a taxi to the airport costs ~$150 (because we just have one car).  If I have a Monday meeting, I'll likely have to fly on Sunday, though, because getting anywhere from Halifax isn't as convenient as Tampa, but I'm happy to price that into living here.

2. Low stress - I almost never have any stress from work, nor do I think about it outside of work hours or on vacation.  There is no expectation that I'm checking my email outside of work hours.

3. Plenty of flexibility during work hours - I've always treated my job very much like an office job.  I put on a work shirt, I go to my (home) office at 8, I take an hour for lunch, and I leave my (home) office at 5.  Over the past year or so, though, I've been giving myself more flexibility within those hours of 8 to 5.  I typically begin each work day with a 30 minute meditation session.  Then I often have 1-2 hours of Zoom calls spread out over the morning.  At 11 or 12, I'll take lunch, and usually exercise outside (going for a run, mowing the lawn, etc.).  Sometimes it's more like 90 minutes than an hour.  If the weather is bad, we have a spin bike and TRX in the basement.  My afternoons tend to be quieter, as I got a new boss who is based in the UK (so he's offline in my afternoon).  I might have a Zoom call or two, but I often don't.  I'll work on things, but if I don't have a project that is urgent, I've also started taking time mid-afternoon for things like yoga, baking bread, growing sprouts / microgreens, working in the yard, working on a volunteer project, etc.  Sometimes I have to work all 8 hours in a day, but usually 5 or 6 is plenty.  The other nice thing about this is that I'm starting to build up an array of activities that I will carry over into full retirement.  I also really appreciate that I'm able to make breakfast and take my daughter to the bus stop, plus greet her when she comes home in the afternoon, and (with no commute) we're able to hang out before dinner.

4. Plenty of time off - I get 42 days off per year -- 11 holidays, and 31 days of PTO.  And I have to take them -- in my previous job I could bank them (and I did) but this job doesn't allow that (which is good for me).  We mostly use this time off to visit family, and I also use some to do more extended meditation retreats.  Plus, at the end of the year I always have a bunch of days I need to take which means I'll get 2 weeks+ at Christmas, which is nice as my wife and daughter are both off then as well.

5. I don't do well with unstructured free-time.  It has gotten better over the years (I got sober ~18 years ago, have been meditating daily for ~10 years, etc.) but left to my own devices I still can drift towards isolation and depression.  Having some structure and engaging in activities with other people in structured ways is good for my mental health.  Of course, so are things like exercise, time with family, and time outside, but as mentioned above I feel like I'm in good shape there.  I've been volunteering, but (as I read on another thread) I find volunteering to be a bit frustrating as people's commitment levels really vary -- I'm very much a TCOB person -- if I say I'm going to do something, I do it, and promptly.  Plus, I find volunteer group meetings to be much more interminable than work meetings.

For a long time, I thought my goal was full retirement as early as possible.  As I've learned more about what really makes me happy, I think I'm always going to want to work on something productive, and it's likely that this will make at least some money.  For now, it's hard for me to justify pulling the plug on a "full-time" job as I'd likely be replacing it with a part-time job that was a similar amount of work, or volunteering roles that were less fulfilling.  I have a friend (met through volunteering) who does local IT consulting.  He's in his 70's, and he keeps telling me that I should do that, but it sounds like much more hassle than my current job (the idea of networking and drumming up clients in particular).  If my job becomes something I don't want or goes away, though, I'll explore this route.

One reason to quit could be to travel, but I don't think either me, my wife or my daughter would really thrive in a nomadic lifestyle.  DD (age 9) has a classmate who is going to spend 6 months traveling next year -- 3 internationally, and 3 on a roadtrip around Canada and the US, and I don't think that appeals to any of us.  At the same time, I like living abroad.  I spent 5 years in Taiwan, a year in China, a year in England and 2.5 years in Hawaii.  Canada scratches that itch somewhat, but it's possible that we'll relocate somewhere more interesting in the future.  Ultimately, it depends on how my daughter is doing.  Right now, though, where we live really suits her.  Plus, I suspect I could keep my job even if we were to relocate to another country, depending on where we went.

Another reason to quit would be to do an extended meditation retreat (e.g. longer than 3 months).  I wouldn't want to do that until my daughter is out of the house, though.

Finally, I guess there are some people who would be troubled by the "morality" of doing non-work activities while within my work hours, but that doesn't bother me.  I am consistently rated as a high performer, an am a salaried employee (not an hourly one).  So, for me, for now, this is working.

leevs11

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2024, 10:52:00 AM »
I'm glad this thread resurfaced.  We've recently hit our 25x number.  Initially, I was thinking that I'd switch to part-time at that point (to ease into retirement), but the reality is that my job already IS basically part-time (in terms of the work it requires) so it's been hard for me to justify taking the pay cut.  Here's why SWAMI works for me (for now).

1. WFH - I switched to a fully remote position in October 2019 to enable us to move from Florida to rural-ish Nova Scotia.  I had to make an effort once we moved to meet people, and I still don't have a robust local friend network, but that's kind of my nature anyways.  In terms of work, though, I absolutely love being fully remote, and I love where we live.  It would be impossible for me to find a comparable job locally.  For one thing, there aren't a lot of IT BA / PM roles locally, and for another local salaries are significantly lower.  I have to travel occasionally for work (2-3 times per year, for ~a week each time) but that's fine.  It's fully expensed, and no one gives me a hard time about the fact that a taxi to the airport costs ~$150 (because we just have one car).  If I have a Monday meeting, I'll likely have to fly on Sunday, though, because getting anywhere from Halifax isn't as convenient as Tampa, but I'm happy to price that into living here.

2. Low stress - I almost never have any stress from work, nor do I think about it outside of work hours or on vacation.  There is no expectation that I'm checking my email outside of work hours.

3. Plenty of flexibility during work hours - I've always treated my job very much like an office job.  I put on a work shirt, I go to my (home) office at 8, I take an hour for lunch, and I leave my (home) office at 5.  Over the past year or so, though, I've been giving myself more flexibility within those hours of 8 to 5.  I typically begin each work day with a 30 minute meditation session.  Then I often have 1-2 hours of Zoom calls spread out over the morning.  At 11 or 12, I'll take lunch, and usually exercise outside (going for a run, mowing the lawn, etc.).  Sometimes it's more like 90 minutes than an hour.  If the weather is bad, we have a spin bike and TRX in the basement.  My afternoons tend to be quieter, as I got a new boss who is based in the UK (so he's offline in my afternoon).  I might have a Zoom call or two, but I often don't.  I'll work on things, but if I don't have a project that is urgent, I've also started taking time mid-afternoon for things like yoga, baking bread, growing sprouts / microgreens, working in the yard, working on a volunteer project, etc.  Sometimes I have to work all 8 hours in a day, but usually 5 or 6 is plenty.  The other nice thing about this is that I'm starting to build up an array of activities that I will carry over into full retirement.  I also really appreciate that I'm able to make breakfast and take my daughter to the bus stop, plus greet her when she comes home in the afternoon, and (with no commute) we're able to hang out before dinner.

4. Plenty of time off - I get 42 days off per year -- 11 holidays, and 31 days of PTO.  And I have to take them -- in my previous job I could bank them (and I did) but this job doesn't allow that (which is good for me).  We mostly use this time off to visit family, and I also use some to do more extended meditation retreats.  Plus, at the end of the year I always have a bunch of days I need to take which means I'll get 2 weeks+ at Christmas, which is nice as my wife and daughter are both off then as well.

5. I don't do well with unstructured free-time.  It has gotten better over the years (I got sober ~18 years ago, have been meditating daily for ~10 years, etc.) but left to my own devices I still can drift towards isolation and depression.  Having some structure and engaging in activities with other people in structured ways is good for my mental health.  Of course, so are things like exercise, time with family, and time outside, but as mentioned above I feel like I'm in good shape there.  I've been volunteering, but (as I read on another thread) I find volunteering to be a bit frustrating as people's commitment levels really vary -- I'm very much a TCOB person -- if I say I'm going to do something, I do it, and promptly.  Plus, I find volunteer group meetings to be much more interminable than work meetings.

For a long time, I thought my goal was full retirement as early as possible.  As I've learned more about what really makes me happy, I think I'm always going to want to work on something productive, and it's likely that this will make at least some money.  For now, it's hard for me to justify pulling the plug on a "full-time" job as I'd likely be replacing it with a part-time job that was a similar amount of work, or volunteering roles that were less fulfilling.  I have a friend (met through volunteering) who does local IT consulting.  He's in his 70's, and he keeps telling me that I should do that, but it sounds like much more hassle than my current job (the idea of networking and drumming up clients in particular).  If my job becomes something I don't want or goes away, though, I'll explore this route.

One reason to quit could be to travel, but I don't think either me, my wife or my daughter would really thrive in a nomadic lifestyle.  DD (age 9) has a classmate who is going to spend 6 months traveling next year -- 3 internationally, and 3 on a roadtrip around Canada and the US, and I don't think that appeals to any of us.  At the same time, I like living abroad.  I spent 5 years in Taiwan, a year in China, a year in England and 2.5 years in Hawaii.  Canada scratches that itch somewhat, but it's possible that we'll relocate somewhere more interesting in the future.  Ultimately, it depends on how my daughter is doing.  Right now, though, where we live really suits her.  Plus, I suspect I could keep my job even if we were to relocate to another country, depending on where we went.

Another reason to quit would be to do an extended meditation retreat (e.g. longer than 3 months).  I wouldn't want to do that until my daughter is out of the house, though.

Finally, I guess there are some people who would be troubled by the "morality" of doing non-work activities while within my work hours, but that doesn't bother me.  I am consistently rated as a high performer, an am a salaried employee (not an hourly one).  So, for me, for now, this is working.

Based on this and MoneyTree's comments, it kind of seems like I'm in the wrong job for this. I'm fully remote which is great. My problem is that I'm middle management. So I spend a lot of time on zoom calls dealing with annoying people both above & below me. I don't get to just produce what I need and log off at the end of the day.

That said, it's very nice being fully remote and able to travel as much as we want.

Similar to you, I moved to a semi rural area and have been enjoying the slower pace of life. I need to work on setting up the list of non-work things I'd like to do. I was previously living in a big city and a little too job focused. The busy work schedule and minimal space for hobbies in our apartment made it hard to focus on these side things. I need to work on that.

merula

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2024, 12:19:36 PM »
Based on this and MoneyTree's comments, it kind of seems like I'm in the wrong job for this. I'm fully remote which is great. My problem is that I'm middle management. So I spend a lot of time on zoom calls dealing with annoying people both above & below me. I don't get to just produce what I need and log off at the end of the day.

That said, it's very nice being fully remote and able to travel as much as we want.

Similar to you, I moved to a semi rural area and have been enjoying the slower pace of life. I need to work on setting up the list of non-work things I'd like to do. I was previously living in a big city and a little too job focused. The busy work schedule and minimal space for hobbies in our apartment made it hard to focus on these side things. I need to work on that.

From my 18 years in corporate America, the key to lower stress in a middle management job seems to be not giving a shit about almost anything. It's the caring that stresses you out.

I'm constitutionally incapable of doing that, myself, but I have gotten better about caring less about someone else's job than they do. It took some work and reframing for myself, but it has helped.

I also turn off my video when I've just had too much on-video time, and it very rarely even gets a comment. We used to have phone calls. We can have phone calls again.

leevs11

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2024, 01:18:08 PM »
Based on this and MoneyTree's comments, it kind of seems like I'm in the wrong job for this. I'm fully remote which is great. My problem is that I'm middle management. So I spend a lot of time on zoom calls dealing with annoying people both above & below me. I don't get to just produce what I need and log off at the end of the day.

That said, it's very nice being fully remote and able to travel as much as we want.

Similar to you, I moved to a semi rural area and have been enjoying the slower pace of life. I need to work on setting up the list of non-work things I'd like to do. I was previously living in a big city and a little too job focused. The busy work schedule and minimal space for hobbies in our apartment made it hard to focus on these side things. I need to work on that.

From my 18 years in corporate America, the key to lower stress in a middle management job seems to be not giving a shit about almost anything. It's the caring that stresses you out.

I'm constitutionally incapable of doing that, myself, but I have gotten better about caring less about someone else's job than they do. It took some work and reframing for myself, but it has helped.

I also turn off my video when I've just had too much on-video time, and it very rarely even gets a comment. We used to have phone calls. We can have phone calls again.

Similar to you, I find it really hard to stop caring. I tell myself to do that, but it's difficult. I like the idea though. Just don't care.

FLBiker

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2024, 12:16:47 PM »
Based on this and MoneyTree's comments, it kind of seems like I'm in the wrong job for this. I'm fully remote which is great. My problem is that I'm middle management. So I spend a lot of time on zoom calls dealing with annoying people both above & below me. I don't get to just produce what I need and log off at the end of the day.

I'm sure there are a lot of different jobs that would work for part-time work in a full-time role, but I get what you're saying about middle management.  I've been in a variety of those roles over the years, but I've always tried to steer my way towards roles with minimal supervision of others.  I currently supervise no one, which is great.

I've realized that my ideal role is one where I'm the right-hand of a bright boss, being given a range of tasks that don't fit neatly into anyone else's role.  My previous boss described me as a free safety, and I think that works.  This means that my work tends to be kind of interesting (because they are non-standard problems).  I try to be very responsive (in terms of getting things turned around quickly) but at the same time my boss tends to be somewhat protective of my time because he wants me available in a pinch.  That means I go through stretches where no one is asking me to do anything urgent.  I can poke around on some backlog data projects, but I can also bake bread or mow the lawn.  It won't always be this way, but it's been this way for a while and I'm happy riding it out while it is.

leevs11

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2024, 01:45:34 PM »
Based on this and MoneyTree's comments, it kind of seems like I'm in the wrong job for this. I'm fully remote which is great. My problem is that I'm middle management. So I spend a lot of time on zoom calls dealing with annoying people both above & below me. I don't get to just produce what I need and log off at the end of the day.

I'm sure there are a lot of different jobs that would work for part-time work in a full-time role, but I get what you're saying about middle management.  I've been in a variety of those roles over the years, but I've always tried to steer my way towards roles with minimal supervision of others.  I currently supervise no one, which is great.

I've realized that my ideal role is one where I'm the right-hand of a bright boss, being given a range of tasks that don't fit neatly into anyone else's role.  My previous boss described me as a free safety, and I think that works.  This means that my work tends to be kind of interesting (because they are non-standard problems).  I try to be very responsive (in terms of getting things turned around quickly) but at the same time my boss tends to be somewhat protective of my time because he wants me available in a pinch.  That means I go through stretches where no one is asking me to do anything urgent.  I can poke around on some backlog data projects, but I can also bake bread or mow the lawn.  It won't always be this way, but it's been this way for a while and I'm happy riding it out while it is.

I like the idea of that kind of role. It would be nice to find something like that.

I kind of find myself in the opposite situation. I'm managing folks. So I don't actually do much work anymore, but I spend a lot of time on zoom meetings. These meetings generally feel like a waste of time. They're also scattered throughout the day so I can't actually focus on much in between meetings.

It's great because I'm paid well and don't have much work to do, but it's a big time commitment.

MoneyTree

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Re: How to SWAMI
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2024, 10:07:13 AM »
Yes, I used to manage a very small team, but a shift in business direction means that I'm a one man army. Even though there is less help, fewer hands to do the tasks, I'm often the one doing the work on my own, I prefer it this way because of the flexibility and autonomy it affords me.

I've had to get more resourceful in coming up with different processes and ways to automate tasks and streamline my deliverables, but honestly that has made me MORE satisfied with my job, not less. Its been a new challenge, shifting from how many widgets I can crank out, and how many people can I hire to crank more widgets, to how can I build widget-making machines?

This is something that I wasn't really able to do when managing a team, where it was more about, how can I assign and allocate the work and then pull it all together.

Could I make more money if I went the route of managing others, inflating my title, and seeking promotion? Yes, absolutely, but that is the beauty of being FI. I don't really need that extra income. That is a tradeoff I'm more than willing to make.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!