The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: Gone Fishing on April 28, 2015, 09:52:01 AM
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We talk about all the negative reactions to ER all the time, but as anyone ever told you (outside of the forum), "That's freaking awesome!" proceeded by lots of follow-up questions?
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I would say about 30% of the responses I get are positive. Generally I find its either negative, non committal, or REALLY positive.
Most people don't get it.. or I suspect don't really believe it.. really means they don't believe your wealthy enough to pull it off.
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People would look at each other and say: "Told you." I was a financial planner for part of my career and people knew I practiced what I preached. My younger colleagues got so they were embarrassed to be seen buying lunch because I always brought mine. If someone was carrying a deli bag and saw me, they would try to hide it or give me a long and disjointed explanation. It was hilarious. I was invited to a brown bag lunch by some of them to discuss FIRE and when they asked why I was so frugal I said: "Part of the reason I enjoy my job so much is that I can walk out of here tomorrow knowing I never have to work for money again. It's incredibly freeing." There was a long silence after that.
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Only half-FI/semi-retired, but no real job at all right now so I look retired, but so far it's only been neutral or positive comments, which has been surprising based on what I've read about other's experiences. I haven't received a single negative or doubtful response from anyone.
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My tribe is full of accounting and finance professionals with professional certifications, masters degrees and the like. Almost to a man, they are consumerist whores (I still like most of them anyway.) The typical response is, that's OK for you but I have to be able to spend money! I've had serious discussion where they explain Starbucks and manicures and being spendy is what makes them happy. Different strokes.
I was having a discussion with a server at IHOP about his ambition to attend barber college and become self employed and improve his situation. I was explaining his best move after achieving his goal was to continue to live frugally and save/invest the rest. The "why?" included me revealing I retired at 40. He gave me an enthusiastic "Praise Jesus!" Good kid. He might do seminary school instead. No one else except my father has been overwhelmingly positive.
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I have had people easily understand and compliment the FI aspect. The ER portion is not as easily understood. This may be an offshoot of the retirement police but most of the folks I have discussed this with in non-internet life equate retirement to playing golf and fishing all day.
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Never negative but i get bewildered looks. But thats part of the fun of it keep people guessing.
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Not there yet, but will be in 4.5 years, and many of my friends are a combination of supportive, envious (because I have a defined benefit plan in addition to my defined contribution plan, making this FIRE thing a lot easier), and amazed. Several have joined the quest as a result of my example.
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I've received lots of positive reactions, and plenty of bewilderment. By far the #1 most common response I hear is, "What, did you win the lottery?"
It's probably a pretty sad commentary that winning the lottery is viewed as the most likely path to retiring early!
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I had only ONE positive reaction to my multi-year sabbatical. It was not direct praise, I just overheard him talking on the phone.
My step dad on the phone to his mother: "You know, to be honest, if I had 6 months of money saved up, I'd love to quit my job and find a different one."
This was the first and only time anyone framed my sabbatical as POSITIVE. Usually, people frame it as youthful ignorance, selfishness, pettiness, ...
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Only my mom.
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My experience has been close to Spartana's. I am not looking for affirmation of my achievement, so I don't put much stock in people's reactions.
Right after I married and FIRE'd, we discovered that my MIL has Alzheimer's. We sold both of our houses and bought a lovely clown house so that she could live safely with us and DH could walk to work. Occasionally, people who don't know me well may think that I retired so that I could take care of her, but DH and I know the truth. Frustrating as she can be at times (she's realtively high functioning, thanks to good drugs), dealing with her is so much easier than my old job was, even on its very best day.
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DH FIREd in 2011 (it was before my MMM days) His dad would drop hints about being concerned for our finances, so one day I showed them to him. His reaction was that I was a "Keeper" :) My mom knows and is happy for us. I have a few folks I have shared our story and plans with, but they are already warm to the notion and of course are impressed. I've not shared our situation with any family or friends who would not receive it well, its not worth the trouble.
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Wow..... what a thread !!! :-)
I have rarely found people appreciating ER! I haven't yet left the corporate job though I am FI (Financially independent) but still working full time. When I tell people that I am FI, the reactions are very disappointing ! The reactions can mostly be categorized into 2 categories
(1) Don't believe me - Make statements like you must be kidding or you may not have done the proper calculations - Later on, you will realize that you are not FI and will repent
(2) Just ignore me - I think they feel that I am showing off
Now I have stopped telling people that I am FI!!
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I have been wondering about this a bit.
I wonder if our western (work yourself to death) culture means that people who aim to check out and retire are viewed as lowlife's that simply don't want to work anymore and thus should be viewed as lazy.
This of course is a bit of a twist on what retirement actually is, I don't believe any of us really cease to work, rather we work at different things, its just that we don't HVAE to work for our employer if we don't want to.. and lets face it, most of us don't.
So yeah ER, is definitely counter culture, plus most people really don't believe me when I say I'm FIRED anyway.
Speaking of culture.. anybody know of any Japanese nationals that are FIRED? I ask because often men won't come home till very late at night, lest their apartment neighbours think they don't have important jobs! Some of them really do die a work as well.
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Only my Mum. She said something like, "you've done well and deserve it."
Everyone else who knows actually says very little about it. People our age seem quite envious (my sister, Sister-in-law, best friend). With acquaintances and strangers we've learned to downplay it.
We are moving to a small town post-FIRE and we've started trial running it. We get asked by EVERYONE we talk to, what we are going to do with ourselves when we move there. It's really awkward and we haven't come up with a good response yet.
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I prefer not to say it if I were at ER, there are those greedy lurchers who will beg me to give me them some money to pay off for their stupidities. I don't feel like having friends or family members begging me for money and hear the usual "I will pay you back" which usually leads to never them paying me back, because that's how they got into that mess to begin with. I would simply tell them "I quit my job and doing independant work to support myself".
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Only my Mum. She said something like, "you've done well and deserve it."
Wow....You are lucky. In my case, my parents were the biggest opponent. After achieving FI, I was about to leave the corporate job and they must be the most frightened person in this universe..... They said everything that you can imagine to discourage me to leave the job :-)
Finally I decided not to leave the job (for now) because of other reasons and they took a sign of relief :-) Perhaps they are now the happiest person in this universe..... Thought their happiness is going to be short lived ;)
We get asked by EVERYONE we talk to, what we are going to do with ourselves when we move there. It's really awkward and we haven't come up with a good response yet.
Same here..... Haven't been able to come up with a satisfactory answer for others. Do let me know, if you find something :-)
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Only my Mum. She said something like, "you've done well and deserve it."
Wow....You are lucky. In my case, my parents were the biggest opponent. After achieving FI, I was about to leave the corporate job and they must be the most frightened person in this universe..... They said everything that you can imagine to discourage me to leave the job :-)
Finally I decided not to leave the job (for now) because of other reasons and they took a sign of relief :-) Perhaps they are now the happiest person in this universe..... Thought their happiness is going to be short lived ;)
We get asked by EVERYONE we talk to, what we are going to do with ourselves when we move there. It's really awkward and we haven't come up with a good response yet.
Same here..... Haven't been able to come up with a satisfactory answer for others. Do let me know, if you find something :-)
Good heavens, nothing could be easier. Tell them you are an artist or a writer. I make beaded necklaces, so I can call myself a "bead artist". Do you have a hobby? Make that your "work". Are you able to write a coherent sentence? Start a blog. Tell people you are working on a history of the area, or on a biography of some obscure historical figure, or a science fiction novel. You don't have to ever publish.
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When I catch up with old friends, they usually get a big shit-eatin grin and tell me congrats. "It sounds like you're at a pretty sweet spot in life".
Lately it's happened when we talk about our 7 week trip to Mexico this summer. My kid's teacher was going on for probably five minutes about how lucky my daughter is to be able to go on these long trips abroad for so long (and the teacher knew about our planned 5 week vacation to Canada last summer). We're at a low income school where some families can't hardly afford housing and food, so globetrotting for a month or two each summer isn't a common occurrence (other than immigrant families returning home to visit family).
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We talk about all the negative reactions to ER all the time, but as anyone ever told you (outside of the forum), "That's freaking awesome!" proceeded by lots of follow-up questions?
Mine was precipitated by a health crisis, since handled. I had planned to retire by 55 but pulled the plug at 52. People my age are "jellus". People older than me, who are still working to pay for their possessions, don't understand how I did it.
My parents don't get it, but part of their issue is not understanding that I work when I want to, on projects I like. I had already, during the Great Recession, worked only 6 months a year, during the winter - spending 25%, saving 75% and debt free. It is too uncertain for them. But then they don't understand how I live the way I do - gives them nothing to brag about!
I'm just glad that I have the time to spend more time with them.
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Good heavens, nothing could be easier. Tell them you are an artist or a writer. I make beaded necklaces, so I can call myself a "bead artist". Do you have a hobby? Make that your "work". Are you able to write a coherent sentence? Start a blog. Tell people you are working on a history of the area, or on a biography of some obscure historical figure, or a science fiction novel. You don't have to ever publish.
Lol.....
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Only my Mum. She said something like, "you've done well and deserve it."
Wow....You are lucky. In my case, my parents were the biggest opponent. After achieving FI, I was about to leave the corporate job and they must be the most frightened person in this universe..... They said everything that you can imagine to discourage me to leave the job :-)
Finally I decided not to leave the job (for now) because of other reasons and they took a sign of relief :-) Perhaps they are now the happiest person in this universe..... Thought their happiness is going to be short lived ;)
We get asked by EVERYONE we talk to, what we are going to do with ourselves when we move there. It's really awkward and we haven't come up with a good response yet.
Same here..... Haven't been able to come up with a satisfactory answer for others. Do let me know, if you find something :-)
We have found the perfect response when people ask us this. We just tell them we're going to start selling Amway. It shuts them up really quickly! LOL.
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Wow....You are lucky. In my case, my parents were the biggest opponent. After achieving FI, I was about to leave the corporate job and they must be the most frightened person in this universe..... They said everything that you can imagine to discourage me to leave the job :-)
My parents are the same. My dad worked for the same company for 40 years (!) so he's always been nervous about my contracting/self-employment/unemployment. When I've mentioned our RE plans, he changes the subject. The first time, my mom loudly exclaimed, "That's just a long vacation, right?" Yes, mom, a very long vacation.
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We have found the perfect response when people ask us this. We just tell them we're going to start selling Amway. It shuts them up really quickly! LOL.
This actually seems a good idea !!! Would love to see how people react! :-)
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Yes, my dad, my brother, and my DW (also a number of friends). I don't very often make decisions based on what others say, but I have to admit that these were big ones.
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I've told nobody we're ER. Mostly because I think it's an oversimplification that masks the actual truth. We're both taking an extended break from career to enjoy life, and may or may not work again in the same field in the future. It's easy to parse the semantics here where people get it, but I choose to not trip people up in everyday life as that can cause more harm than good. I don't want praise or especially not an extended conversation about finances. Just to let the people I care about know where I am in life and to set a good example should my choices interest them.
My favorite response was from the wife of the owner of my last company. She told me privately that she was proud of me and that I'd never regret embracing the opportunity.
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My parents dont get idea of ER, although they've been ER for a while now but still cant grasp a concept that you dont have to wait till certain age to be FI and ER. When I tell them that we are FI and could retire early in our 40's, they just smile at me
an shake their heads in disbelieve. I personally dont even try to share this with anybody, since very few can understand
what I am talking about.
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I wouldn't say spending is a western culture only. I have Asian background so I can comment that "working till you are supposed to retire at 65" is the norm in Asia as well. Most of the family have 2 income earners who work until time to collect pension. The idea of FIRE is nonexistence. Money is the most important thing in life even though it doesn't necessarily bring happiness. I've seen enough families have more money than they need yet live a miserable life.
Asians are usually very good savers. However it has changed quite dramatically in recent years as more and more people are spending money like there is no tomorrow. Old generations save but don't know how to invest. All money is put in a savings account or GIC and eaten by inflation.
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I think I got off topic a bit. I'd like to add that my peers don't know "ER" ever exists. It's like I'm talking to a wall every time I bring up FI or ER. Last night I was talking to a close friend about ER, she is like "are you joking". So I stopped. Everyone thinks that we need to earn high 6 figures to retire and no one retire before 65, period. Even if we earn enough money but we should still work until 65.
My parents are very supportive though and that's all I care about. I need to find a partner who shares the same vision as I do. I feel that it's extremely hard as all of the young people I know knows nothing about FI or ER. I'm better off by myself.
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@Spartana
House and Cars represent status and success in Asian community. People may work their a** off to drive fancy cars and live in a McMansion. One cannot own a house but needs to drive a Mercedes . It's so sad that we are perceived as failures if drive a Toyota. That's probably why one of my friends lives in a basement but drives a BMW.
I know someone who works 3 jobs to barely cover a $400k apartment she mortgaged and a Lexus SUV she leased. I don't understand but I guess that's the reason why it separates me from the rest of them.
Older generations save their entire lives and offer to pay off their kids' colleague and even their down payment for house. That's one of the many reasons why they can't retire. However, it's also the culture that adult children are expected to take care of their parents when they are old. I see that more and more adult kids are eating on their parents' savings and doing nothing. I think I may need to create a new thread to discuss this phenomenon. It amazes me every time I see adult children ask money from their old parents.
EDIT: cosmetics
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People that are frugal themselves but may not know about ER make positive comments, and surprisingly my own family is starting to come around. One sister told me when I came for a recent visit that she watched me carefully to see how I made choices about money and what I talked about. She is a way off from ER, but has an interest now.
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Since Mr. LC and I retired last year we have spent a great deal of time sorting through every nook and cranny of our home and ridding ourselves of everything that didn't have value or purpose to us. We then sold items that still had value on Craigslist, Facebook garage sale sites, and a garage sale at our home. A "friend" of ours made the comment that we needed the money for groceries since we were not working. Didn't bother to set them straight as it was pointless.
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My parents can't comprehend. We retired at the same time as they did. They keep making jokes about applying at McD's, etc. They know we have enough to live on, think it's a generational/values issue. I told one friend who admitted she was jealous and then pulled way back. (Not telling anyone else) It's nice to have this forum though.
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I wouldn't say spending is a western culture only. I have Asian background so I can comment that "working till you are supposed to retire at 65" is the norm in Asia as well. Most of the family have 2 income earners who work until time to collect pension. The idea of FIRE is nonexistence. Money is the most important thing in life even though it doesn't necessarily bring happiness. I've seen enough families have more money than they need yet live a miserable life.
Asians are usually very good savers. However it has changed quite dramatically in recent years as more and more people are spending money like there is no tomorrow. Old generations save but don't know how to invest. All money is put in a savings account or GIC and eaten by inflation.
EDIT：
I think I got off topic a bit. I'd like to add that my peers don't know "ER" ever exists. It's like I'm talking to a wall every time I bring up FI or ER. Last night I was talking to a close friend about ER, she is like "are you joking". So I stopped. Everyone thinks that we need to earn high 6 figures to retire and no one retire before 65, period. Even if we earn enough money but we should still work until 65.
My parents are very supportive though and that's all I care about. I need to find a partner who shares the same vision as I do. I feel that it's extremely hard as all of the young people I know knows nothing about FI or ER. I'm better off by myself.
This is actually true in my area. I live in a very large Asian community (only non-Asian in the 'hood I think) and when I have told my neighbors about my retiring early they could not grasp it (now I just tell them I work from home). Most live in large family groups and everyone works until a fairly old age. They do save and live fairly frugal lives (except most seem to have luxury cars for some reason - odd to see endless Mercedes and Lexus' in a working-class neighborhood) and put a high value on helping their children thru college and into a better future rather than FIREing themselves.
I am ABC (American-Born Chinese), and I definitely agree with the statement that the older generation's "American Dream" was sacrificing themselves to set up a stable life in American and put their children through college. After largely dating other Asians, I ended up marrying a Caucasian Southerner (so about as American as it gets) who is strangely asian in lifestyle - very frugal and eats anything.
My parents are supportive in a confused sort of way. They are very happy that my husband and I are such good savers, but they don't understand our FIRE goals. I think early retirement is equated with laziness. All my cousins and siblings are engineers, doctors, and Ivy League professors, so I am definitely the odd one out. Strangely, my grandfather, however, is totally on board. He took me aside one day and said that he has come to realize that "normal" or "average" has become too rare these days, and that he thinks I am doing something right by focusing on spending more time with family. I think he genuinely regrets not spending more time with his children when they were younger, but those were different times and he was under intense pressure to be the "big man" and breadwinner.
I guess it comes down to values. You only have so much time in a day, and while I haven't completely discounted the argument that "you can have it all," I personally feel like something has to give. I would rather have an average career, save harder, and be free to spend more time with my husband, children, and aging relatives. Others prefer to pursue careers, aspire to making a difference on a broader scale, and don't worry about FI because their ambition means money is not a primary concern, or that there is no foreseeable end in sight to their work. They set the bar high, hit a peak of happiness that fades quickly after the goal is met, reset the bar higher, and then it's back to work. I have my bar set low, and have been steadily content for about 8 years now. I think I get as much happiness from when my ultra-Mustachian husband allows some ice cream into the house as my cousin gets when his pretrial for a cure to kidney stones succeeds. Maybe I am selfish to only focus on my small bubble of family and friends, but I guess I have much more nihilistic leanings than most.
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My parents can't comprehend. We retired at the same time as they did. They keep making jokes about applying at McD's, etc. They know we have enough to live on, think it's a generational/values issue. I told one friend who admitted she was jealous and then pulled way back. (Not telling anyone else) It's nice to have this forum though.
Sometimes I wonder if that joking isn't a form of modesty. They don't want to be thought of as pretentious so they discount their true position. They may also have friends who are struggling in retirement, with no chance of improving their situation this late in life, and don't want to brag about their own security. Also, there are plenty of Madoff types around who have scammed seemingly smart people out of their life savings, so there is possibly a constant undercurrent of fear that something could still happen to derail their retirements.
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It's funny how parents can be. My parents haven't said anything in the way of praise to me. However, my brother says they are always putting us up as role models to him. So perhaps they are praising us - just not to our faces!
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We have found the perfect response when people ask us this. We just tell them we're going to start selling Amway. It shuts them up really quickly! LOL.
This actually seems a good idea !!! Would love to see how people react! :-)
Cracked me up! What a effective and polite way to end the conversation- I am going to try this(the explanation that is)........
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Some friends are happy for us, though these tend to be people who have also quit their jobs, not necessarily for FIRE but to do something different or better. They think we are badasses. We have a parent on either side who's super happy for us, and very proud of how we've set and met goals. They've watched it for decades, so I think they understand -- more than most -- the hard work that went into FIRE and how long it actually took.
But, most everyone else seems to think we're crazy and to be quite concerned about us. A lot of people want to know how long we intend to do this, others can't fathom how we spend our days. I blogged about it (https://evgeniagotfi.wordpress.com/2015/06/28/theres-no-line-item-for-fi/) because I think people lack a framework for thinking about themselves outside of work. Our culture is so focused on "productivity" (and specifically productivity as defined in terms of a full-time job) and has scorned so many things we enjoy in FIRE (making things yourself, doing things around the house, spending time with your family) that I think many people just don't have a mental model for where to put us.
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Pulled the er plug 4 years ago age 53. 100% of my friends "get it" Those who do not-----are NOT my friends
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It's funny how parents can be. My parents haven't said anything in the way of praise to me. However, my brother says they are always putting us up as role models to him. So perhaps they are praising us - just not to our faces!
I guess if people are going to talk about you behind your back, that's the best way to do it. My parents like to take credit for my accomplishments, including my engineering degree. Their contribution to my degree was a swift kick in the butt on the way out, and a whisper that the college fund never really existed.
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Only my very close friend.
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Most people just think I'm travelling, they can't understand the concept that I've retired at 35. The majority of people are too interested in the latest iPhone or impressing others with fast cars, buying expensive drinks in bars/clubs, or funding their girlfriends consumer/shopping habit etc..I'm glad the majority of people are wired like this, it makes my dreams possible.
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My kids are super proud and have followed in our footsteps. One is almost FI in his late thirties and has kids! The other is way ahead of where we were at his age and if all goes well will be there mid fourties. When we talked about it they are making a conscious decision to spend more now on travel and delay ER. For them it is the right thing. We were 52 and 55 at ER.
One of our toughest critics who has spent her life thinking "poor me" while spending spending spending told her kids they should talk to us to find out how we did it. I took it as a compliment.
The won the lottery post cracked me up. One of the reasons we could ER was because we did not waste money buying lottery tickets. Joke is on them.
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Majority of reactions are either negative, sarcastic or doubting. Only a couple of my friends have a genuinely positive response, but they are also FI and/or RE themselves. My latest response to doubters when they ask what I do is to tell them that I am "Gainfully Unemployed". This usually shuts them up and leaves them agape
Gotta say reaction of others to my FIRE is not what I expected. Between the apparent view that I am not a contributor, lazy or SUPER, MEGA rich or something (which I am not), they don't understand how someone can live on so little, spend so much time with themselves and not go crazy, rather seem very content.
So glad for this forum where I may return for validation when the negative views cover me with their slime ;-)
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We recently had a meet-up in the SFO area where I did feel supported in my decisions, but I guess that's why we do these meet-ups.
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My kids are super proud and have followed in our footsteps. One is almost FI in his late thirties and has kids! The other is way ahead of where we were at his age and if all goes well will be there mid fourties. When we talked about it they are making a conscious decision to spend more now on travel and delay ER. For them it is the right thing. We were 52 and 55 at ER.
One of our toughest critics who has spent her life thinking "poor me" while spending spending spending told her kids they should talk to us to find out how we did it. I took it as a compliment.
The won the lottery post cracked me up. One of the reasons we could ER was because we did not waste money buying lottery tickets. Joke is on them.
I'm sure you did well but does 52 and 55 qualify as ER? Just curious. Most everyone I know who has had a teaching or government gig (except myself) has exited with sweet benefits and pensions around that time. I always assume that anything after 55 is a late retirement for my generation. I guess I'm wrong on that? Probably a thread on what qualifies as ER that I have read and forgotten about already.
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My kids are super proud and have followed in our footsteps. One is almost FI in his late thirties and has kids! The other is way ahead of where we were at his age and if all goes well will be there mid fourties. When we talked about it they are making a conscious decision to spend more now on travel and delay ER. For them it is the right thing. We were 52 and 55 at ER.
One of our toughest critics who has spent her life thinking "poor me" while spending spending spending told her kids they should talk to us to find out how we did it. I took it as a compliment.
The won the lottery post cracked me up. One of the reasons we could ER was because we did not waste money buying lottery tickets. Joke is on them.
I'm sure you did well but does 52 and 55 qualify as ER? Just curious. Most everyone I know who has had a teaching or government gig (except myself) has exited with sweet benefits and pensions around that time. I always assume that anything after 55 is a late retirement for my generation. I guess I'm wrong on that? Probably a thread on what qualifies as ER that I have read and forgotten about already.
I think early retirement is considered before you start getting goverment benefits at 65 (depending where you live). I always saw it that way, so if somebody retires at 55, I still consider early retirement. Someone who retires before 50, i consider that extreme early retirement, basically because a very small percentage are able to pull that off. I guess the definition of ER is not a precise one.
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My kids are super proud and have followed in our footsteps. One is almost FI in his late thirties and has kids! The other is way ahead of where we were at his age and if all goes well will be there mid fourties. When we talked about it they are making a conscious decision to spend more now on travel and delay ER. For them it is the right thing. We were 52 and 55 at ER.
One of our toughest critics who has spent her life thinking "poor me" while spending spending spending told her kids they should talk to us to find out how we did it. I took it as a compliment.
The won the lottery post cracked me up. One of the reasons we could ER was because we did not waste money buying lottery tickets. Joke is on them.
I'm sure you did well but does 52 and 55 qualify as ER? Just curious. Most everyone I know who has had a teaching or government gig (except myself) has exited with sweet benefits and pensions around that time. I always assume that anything after 55 is a late retirement for my generation. I guess I'm wrong on that? Probably a thread on what qualifies as ER that I have read and forgotten about already.
It's not Mustachian-level ER, but for regular people 55 is early. Think about how (relatively) young 55 is to have freedom from paid work. More badass than many!
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My kids are super proud and have followed in our footsteps. One is almost FI in his late thirties and has kids! The other is way ahead of where we were at his age and if all goes well will be there mid fourties. When we talked about it they are making a conscious decision to spend more now on travel and delay ER. For them it is the right thing. We were 52 and 55 at ER.
One of our toughest critics who has spent her life thinking "poor me" while spending spending spending told her kids they should talk to us to find out how we did it. I took it as a compliment.
The won the lottery post cracked me up. One of the reasons we could ER was because we did not waste money buying lottery tickets. Joke is on them.
I'm sure you did well but does 52 and 55 qualify as ER? Just curious. Most everyone I know who has had a teaching or government gig (except myself) has exited with sweet benefits and pensions around that time. I always assume that anything after 55 is a late retirement for my generation. I guess I'm wrong on that? Probably a thread on what qualifies as ER that I have read and forgotten about already.
It's not Mustachian-level ER, but for regular people 55 is early. Think about how (relatively) young 55 is to have freedom from paid work. More badass than many!
Maybe it's the difference between government w/pension and private enterprise?
I left at 50. While not 'early' around here, it was considered a very strange event indeed at work. Everyone gave me odd responses. Even the HR chick at my exit interview sort of stammered. She expected some 65 year old and didn't know what to say to a 50 year old (who was probably 10 years her junior.)
There was even some debate amongst a couple of people who had to come to me to clear it up.
man1: You can't retire
me: yes I can
man2: you're not old enough
me: yes I am. I can retire any time I want to.
man1: but ... but ... I mean... can...?
me: Can I collect social security?
man1: yeah!
me: no
man2: See, I told you!
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We have found the perfect response when people ask us this. We just tell them we're going to start selling Amway. It shuts them up really quickly! LOL.
This is pure brilliance!
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@Spartana
House and Cars represent status and success in Asian community. People may work their a** off to drive fancy cars and live in a McMansion. One cannot own a house but needs to drive a Mercedes . It's so sad that we are perceived as failures if drive a Toyota. That's probably why one of my friends lives in a basement but drives a BMW.
I know someone who works 3 jobs to barely cover a $400k apartment she mortgaged and a Lexus SUV she leased. I don't understand but I guess that's the reason why it separates me from the rest of them.
Older generations save their entire lives and offer to pay off their kids' college and even their down payment for house. That's one of the many reasons why they can't retire. However, it's also the culture that adult children are expected to take care of their parents when they are old. I see that more and more adult kids are eating on their parents' savings and doing nothing. I think I may need to create a new thread to discuss this phenomenon. It amazes me every time I see adult children ask money from their old parents.
EDIT: cosmetics
I'm married to an immigrant Asian, I learned early on that you don't waste money! We have lived frugaly for 34 years and can REFI, BUT!
She has no interest. I will retire in 19 months.
Yes she still wants to take care of the kids, But I told my daughter when she was young to elope instead of wasting money on a wedding,
and we'd give her the money for a down payment or... She did, so far we funded her Roth for two years and gave her $2000 when she bought a house.
Because that's all she ask for.
Personally I'd be done giving any more, she has a great job and the ability and knowledge that she should live under her income.
I can only hope she is, she says she is.
Although, I suspect if she needed money for something my wife would give more.
My son quit college after two years, quitting college with an Asian mother, ohhhh. That has not been good. :-)
However, today I got an email from him with a form to prove residency for a college, so maybe he's going back.
She hasn't been told yet! If he does go back, I'm sure we will send more support money his way.
We paid my daughters way through college and my son's till he quit. Did get help, they both had high grades
(of course, their Asian, they better:-) and got Florida's Bright Futures Scholarship.
As far as cars, not much show, but she did buy an Avalon we didn't really need 5 years ago, we have not put 2000 miles on it.
She is very patient, and waits for the car she wants at the right price.
We have a small business she says she will keep it running in case the kids need something to fall back on.
I think they see us working 11 hours a day, 7 days a week 363 days a year and have NO interest. (13 years now)
The good thing is, our job is easy 65% of the time, and I can computer surf, watch TV, or walk a 1/2 mile lap near the business.
I can only hope a college education lets them work 40 hours and earn a good wage.
Only 19 more months till I retire.
Anyway, the Asian culture strong work ethic, sacrifice for family is very important, saving face is important.
That one drives my buggy, lots of secrets hidden from family members, and I get put in the position where I'm
expected to support the lie.
Overall, It's been good for me!
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Qmavan - I think a lot of the desire to appear very upscale by having fancy cars and mcmansion, nice clothes and bling, yet still living in very large family groups or in heavily shared spaces even within the mcmansions as a way to save money, is due to being in a large Asia (Vietnamese in my case) community of close of 100,000 in a small area (Little Saigon) rather than just being Asian. Lots more peer pressure to keep up with the Jones and show status. There's this weird mix of old ways family and community orientated - mix with western culture of appearing wealthy and having a high social standing and doing whatever you have to have the things that represent high social standing. Most of the older folks really retain the old-world values but many of the younger in 2nd or third generation seem to be very interested in the upscale lifestyle.
Vietnamese here also, but smaller community. My wife is very sensitive that others think the kids are achieving,
no one was supposed to know my son quit college.
When we have my wife's out of town visitors, they always want to impress us with how much they spent for this or that.
My wife bites her tongue, no one knows about our wealth, except my mother and she took it to her grave.
One 67 year old grandmother in the family runs a business and keeps her son, daughter in law, grandson and a few other
family members employed, I don't think the business would last with the second or third generation running it.
The grandmother does live old ways, family and community,and old-world values.
The younger want the bling, 10 years ago lots of gold and diamonds flashed around,
but that part has passed.
I'm sure there is 'keeping up with the Jones' in the western culture also, otherwise it would be quoted as 'keeping up with the Nguyen's' :-)
I just see it more with my wife's family all around us.
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My kids are super proud and have followed in our footsteps. One is almost FI in his late thirties and has kids! The other is way ahead of where we were at his age and if all goes well will be there mid fourties. When we talked about it they are making a conscious decision to spend more now on travel and delay ER. For them it is the right thing. We were 52 and 55 at ER.
One of our toughest critics who has spent her life thinking "poor me" while spending spending spending told her kids they should talk to us to find out how we did it. I took it as a compliment.
The won the lottery post cracked me up. One of the reasons we could ER was because we did not waste money buying lottery tickets. Joke is on them.
I'm sure you did well but does 52 and 55 qualify as ER? Just curious. Most everyone I know who has had a teaching or government gig (except myself) has exited with sweet benefits and pensions around that time. I always assume that anything after 55 is a late retirement for my generation. I guess I'm wrong on that? Probably a thread on what qualifies as ER that I have read and forgotten about already.
We have no friends who retired earlier than us, but a few who did retire at 55. This was before the affordable care act and with DH history of cancer, not something we felt we could risk. We could have gone out in our late 40's but chose not to. Those last years neither of us went the extra mile. We had lots of vacation time and had a ball. When you don't have to work your perspective changes. At 55 DH could carry us on an excellent health care plan.
I have seen several people posting lately about how they feel deprived in ER. We have travelled the world, live in a beautiful home (average by normal standards, luxurious by mustacian standards) and give a lot to charity each year. If my kids need help with the grandkids, we hop on a plane and off we go. We give generous donations to the grandkids 529's every year. While not for everyone, working those extra years gave us huge piece of mind and allows us to be very generous. . YMMV but it worked for us.
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I was thinking about this more and even at the ripe old age of 55 people were bewildered. They could not understand how we could retire without social security already paying us.
Unfortunately I hope this mindset changes as the politicians fiddle with social security.
The people who strive for FI and leave the workforce in their thirties and fourties are very unusual, except for those cases where one person is the stay at home parent while the other still brings home the bacon. Even many posters here have working spouses, at least part time Probably a very small percentage of the population leaves the workforce permanently without a working partner before age 62. Look around your neighborhoods and see how many non child caring people under the age of sixty are around all day.
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Not there yet, but will be in 4.5 years, and many of my friends are a combination of supportive, envious (because I have a defined benefit plan in addition to my defined contribution plan, making this FIRE thing a lot easier), and amazed. Several have joined the quest as a result of my example.
This is my experience. I will be FIRE in about 5 years. We'll probably move away because I do think it will be tough socially for us if we stay and we want to downsize and travel.
I figure that the advantage of moving somewhere new is that people may wonder, but have fewer foregone conclusions. Perhaps they will think I'm a Kennedy. Or a rich eccentric. Maybe I'll fuel the rumors just to keep them guessing. That's half the fun.
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My kids are super proud and have followed in our footsteps. One is almost FI in his late thirties and has kids! The other is way ahead of where we were at his age and if all goes well will be there mid fourties. When we talked about it they are making a conscious decision to spend more now on travel and delay ER. For them it is the right thing. We were 52 and 55 at ER.
One of our toughest critics who has spent her life thinking "poor me" while spending spending spending told her kids they should talk to us to find out how we did it. I took it as a compliment.
The won the lottery post cracked me up. One of the reasons we could ER was because we did not waste money buying lottery tickets. Joke is on them.
I'm sure you did well but does 52 and 55 qualify as ER? Just curious. Most everyone I know who has had a teaching or government gig (except myself) has exited with sweet benefits and pensions around that time. I always assume that anything after 55 is a late retirement for my generation. I guess I'm wrong on that? Probably a thread on what qualifies as ER that I have read and forgotten about already.
I think early retirement is considered before you start getting goverment benefits at 65 (depending where you live). I always saw it that way, so if somebody retires at 55, I still consider early retirement. Someone who retires before 50, i consider that extreme early retirement, basically because a very small percentage are able to pull that off. I guess the definition of ER is not a precise one.
I also consider anything before 65 as early retirement. I would consider someone who retires at 62 and ERer in the non-mustachian world too but here I think it would be considered late. Same with with the "extremely" early retirement. In the real world my ER age (42 - with no paid work at all after that) would be considered extreme but here it's sort of "normal" retirement age :-)!
IMHO, chasing an earlier retirement age is no different from chasing a fancier car, just by different groups of people, with different tradeoffs.
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'Early' is a relative term, not absolute, so point of reference is necessary.
The SS benefit age is as good as any as the common reference. Some gov't employees do have pensions and earlier (and even 'mandatory') retirement ages. They are still a minority of the workforce though.
IMO anything sub 62 is 'Early'.
We can add additional adjectives to sub 50, sub 40, and sub 30. At that point, it becomes what sounds best. ''Extra Early', 'Extreme Early', 'Eye Poppingly Early', and so forth.
I admit a twinge of envy who have FIRE'd, but more so by the skill and/or commitment versus my own. In other words, my bad.
The average consumer is indeed ignorant, so it is only logical they will react even more negatively.
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Spartana, I can't believe that in your neighborhood people have such expensive cars. Our neighborhood has average cars that go with average homes. But most homes only have 1 family in them. I think it is sad that they are choosing to spend their $ that way. Give me a decent house & a junky car any day:))
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WE drive our cars until they are dead. Last 2 just died at 14 yo each. We then replaced with 5 yo cars which we will do the same with. Rinse & repeat. We are thinking that they next time a car dies we will be in early 70's & will probably just downsize to one car.
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We have found the perfect response when people ask us this. We just tell them we're going to start selling Amway. It shuts them up really quickly! LOL.
Remember to add "kidding" unless they're friends you don't really want to keep. I avoid that sort of salesman like the plague, friend or not.
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I would say 90% of the time, people are really happy for me once they find out that I retired early. I've only had a few instances where friends could no longer related and pulled back.
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Like KisKis, I am also American born Chinese and agree with many of her observations. Frugality is definitely an Asian value but so is "success"--I feel like I would be looked down upon in the Asian community for retiring early even if I could well afford it. It would be considered lazy and shiftless, especially in comparison to old ladies who are still toiling hard at their jobs to put their children through Ivy League schools. Success is considered being a surgeon, a partner in a law firm, or an engineer at a successful startup, not having leisure time and autonomy. Add to that the fact that I'm childfree and I might as well get expelled from the Asian race. Fortunately I live in a major city where I can choose to associate with people who don't have such narrow views, otherwise I'd go crazy!
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For those who have to deal with disapproving friends and family - all you need is a cover story. Don't say you are retired. Tell people you are working as a consultant or you are writing a novel.
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I am so thankful that I got my frugal habits from my parents. My mom mostly worked at home, and my dad retired at 50. None of their friends ever understood. They love that I intend to follow in their footsteps, though I will likely retire at 51/52 when my son graduates high school. I found MMM and this forum and told my dad. We have never exchanged user names and I don't know if he regularly reads/posts but if he reads this...hi Dad!
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Like KisKis, I am also American born Chinese and agree with many of her observations. Frugality is definitely an Asian value but so is "success"--I feel like I would be looked down upon in the Asian community for retiring early even if I could well afford it. It would be considered lazy and shiftless, especially in comparison to old ladies who are still toiling hard at their jobs to put their children through Ivy League schools. Success is considered being a surgeon, a partner in a law firm, or an engineer at a successful startup, not having leisure time and autonomy. Add to that the fact that I'm childfree and I might as well get expelled from the Asian race. Fortunately I live in a major city where I can choose to associate with people who don't have such narrow views, otherwise I'd go crazy!
I agree you 100% about what Asian values. I'm very thankful that frugality is in my genes so that I know I need to save even before knowing this FIRE concept ever exists. However, I also feel that most of my friends are not on board and would give me weird look when I bring it up so I keep my mouth shut. When I eventually FIRE I may need to "lie" about what I do for a living.
Also, as Spartana mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon for Asians (especially guys) to buy expensive cars but live with roommates. I was told that driving expensive cars give them more chance of getting a hot girl. Well, that may be true but I would think it's more for their own ego.
I just had a conversation with an Asian friend who was considering leasing a new car as the old one is about to end. He is totally rational in terms of knowing how much he can afford each month to pay for a car which is about as the same as what he is paying now for a Civic. I know he wants to buy a house with is fiance in the near future and he also understands that his top priority is to save money. I suggested getting a Carola if he wants a change (I didn't even mention getting a used car as 99.9% Asian I know would feel insulted if suggested getting a used car!). The very next day, he told me he will get a Lexus NX SUV. I was shocked. He just said "I had to. Can't resist." Face Palm.
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I have a few friends IRL who have semi-ER'd in their 50s. They were the ones sort of uncomfortable to admit it, while I was all like "that's great! Congrats! Can I ask how because I want to do something like that too!" But it has led to some good conversations after the initial weirdness. In these cases it does seem like their later FIRE age than what I am hoping for has also meant a little more spendy than we will likely be. But everyone is different and 50s is OK. My dad was 58 and my goal is to best that, hopefully by at least a decade ;-)