Author Topic: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family  (Read 48734 times)

Parizade

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2016, 05:14:07 AM »
Please don't consider splitting up.  Divorce should be scary because (at least to me) it is a huge failure. 

My marriage to a narcissistic sociopath was a failure, my divorce and subsequent therapy was a HUGE success and my choice to remain single has been the right and happy one for me.

While I agree that YBFree seems to be in a mostly good marriage and should be able to work this out, sometimes divorce is the best and most life affirming choice a person can make. Marriage should be scary to young people, marriage should make you pause and think through all the ramifications. Divorce should be as quick and easy as possible.

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2016, 07:20:40 AM »
So, despite the 125k (which is like half what I was making before

jesus, what kind of work exactly were you in???

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2016, 07:36:15 AM »

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Why is there no middle ground?  Quit your job with the 1 hour commute, and find something closer to home and maybe even part time.  Or, if you are ready to fully leave the work force now, agree that you'll work 2 more years at a minimum of $x salary (less than you are making now, giving you the freedom to explore different options and locations, and perhaps part time.)  That's why I mentioned discussion and compromise in my post.

Nope, not possible.  I have three more years to finish out a 22-year law enforcement career (+ 6 years military) with a very generous pension (@$74k for the first 7 years, @$63k after that). Quitting my job before then is not even a conceivable option.

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I'll admit that I might be singing a very different tune of DH and I had ever been on a different page financially.  If he'd been wasteful and I had to work many more years because of that, or if he wanted what I consider to be an insane income post-FIRE, it would begin to feel less like a partnership.  Thankfully, I married someone with very similar financial values.  But I still think that in most cases, there is *some* middle ground.   I would never feel truly FIRE'd if my partner still worked (for the money, not the satisfaction or some other reason).  And I'd probably resent a parter who said that his standard for FIRE was non-negotiable and if I didn't like it, I was on my own.  If my number was $1m and his $1.5, I'd be wiling to work another couple years to get to $1.25, especially if we agreed I could leave a job or commute I hated for lower pay or a better commute or better conditions in general.  I don't consider working for 2 years in a job I don't hate as wasted if it contributes to the happiness and security of my partner.  Now if my number was $1m and his was $5m, spanning that gap would be more difficult.

Truth is, my wife could quit the same time as me, but it would require a serious sacrifice on her part to lower her standard of living, which, considering my pension, plus the other $28k I could draw on a likely $700k portfolio, would put us @ $100k, is not exactly roughing it, ya know?  So, if my wife desires the frivolities, then she's on the hook for them.  I think that's only fair.

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We agree together on what car to purchase or what home to rent/buy, and I look at FIRE in a very similar way--it's in investment, but it just involves investing time in the workforce as well as money.  I might be fine with the 2000 Toyota Echo, but if he wants the 2009 Corolla, I'm not going to dig in my heels simply because to me the Echo is fine.  We'll talk about it and maybe find a 2006 Yaris. Now if he wanted the 2016 Mercedes, compromise to a point that we were both satisfied would be more difficult.  But that goes back to the comment about marrying someone with similar values.

Well, we generally agree on such things, for the most part, but she is very much a product of the consumer age, and it's really difficult for her to move beyond what the ad agencies are drumming into her head.  Our values on MOST things are aligned reasonably enough, but there are definitely some friction points.  Such is marriage for the vast majority of humanity, IMHO.

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2016, 08:03:13 AM »
Please don't consider splitting up.  Divorce should be scary because (at least to me) it is a huge failure.  People change, life is complicated... there are a million reasons why we should throw in the towel along the way.  As a runner, it is easy to give up, but you ultimately lose.  Maybe, sometimes the race is more than you prepared for or something unforeseen happened.  In my case, when kids are involved, divorce is the last ditch effort to make life work going forward, but in your case, you should artificially elevate it to this status.  I don't get the impression that you are being taken advantage of or rationalizing.  So I really don't understand anything toward divorce being a good path forward.  As I said earlier, good luck!  But we're just strangers on the internet, ultimately, even if we mean well.

Perhaps, but at some point, if you cannot find happiness together, you have to cut the cord.  On this I agree whole-heartedly with Harry Browne's "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World."

NOT saying or implying this is the case with the OP, just speaking in general terms.

BeanCounter

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2016, 08:07:52 AM »

Truth is, my wife could quit the same time as me, but it would require a serious sacrifice on her part to lower her standard of living, which, considering my pension, plus the other $28k I could draw on a likely $700k portfolio, would put us @ $100k, is not exactly roughing it, ya know?  So, if my wife desires the frivolities, then she's on the hook for them.  I think that's only fair.

Dude,
 This must be rough for the two of you. How does your wife feel about "being on the hook for the frivolities"? My husband is definitely more spendy than me, but your post really makes me appreciate that he's still not a "normal" consumer. I guess we see more eye to eye than I thought.

Daleth

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2016, 08:13:56 AM »
My spouse was initially VERY skeptical about my FIRE plans -- I will cut the cord 5-7 years before her

Wait, what? Explain this to me. You're married, but you plan to retire 5-7 years before your wife can do so? In other words, even though you as a couple can't afford to both retire in X year, you are going to stop working in that year and let your wife support you for another 5-7 years until you guys can afford to both retire?

Why would you not plan to keep working for, say, another 3 years so that you can both retire at the same time in year X+3?

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2016, 08:16:48 AM »
OP I almost hate to post my story as it ended in DH and I divorcing - although an amiable one with both of us being happier in the long run.

tl:dr version: both in the military, both planned to retire at 38 to travel, I quit he stayed, we divorced.

Long version: Ex-DH and I were both in the military and spent a lot of time apart, often living in different states, due to the job. So both of us agreed before marrying  that we'd do our 20 years and retire at 38, and be able to spend more time together and also to be able to do lots of very active adventure-type slow travel - beginning with getting a sailboat and sailing around the world. So a couple of years before our planned FIRE date we got the boat and outfitted it. Then he says he wants to stay in the service another 10 years with all the transfers and long deploments (I was out already and working a civilian job.I really liked a lot) and maybe work a similar civilian job another 20 years after that.

So, long story short, each of us spent a few years trying to compromise so we could be together but it didn't work out. I didn't like being retired while he worked so I stayed working even though he was 100% OK with me not working and also going off travelling long term - I just didn't feel right about it and also didn't want to have those kinds of long seperations anymore - either because of his job or my travel. But I also had huge burning desires to do sooooo many other things while younger it was almost painful for me to put them off any longer. And he felt the same strong desire to continue working at a job he loved. Now divorced we are both more fulfilled and happy.

I'd be lying if I said this wasn't at least of some concern to me vis-à-vis my S.O. and me.  I am an adventurer at heart; every fiber of my being cries out to travel and explore. When I see blogs like ouropenroad.com, I feel very strongly that I'm not living my life right.  I want to do what they, and others like them (including my friends and their daughter, who pulled up stakes a couple years ago, sold everything, and began sailing the Pacific, mostly up and down the Mexico coast -- they are an absolute inspiration). My wife, not so much. Whereas I can spend days in the backcountry sleeping in a tent and not showering, she couldn't fathom the idea; it's all hotel rooms and blow dryers, etc,. for her.  We've managed to co-exist peacefully and relatively happily for 10 years now, primarily because she gives me a fair amount of leeway to go on trips with friends to do the things I do in the mountains, and because I take her to sunny beaches several times a year as well (I scuba dive while she sunbathes).  But if I'm honest with myself, I know it's going to be really difficult for me to not indulge my wanderlust and need to be in the mountains when I have the freedom to do so, unfettered by any job restraints.  The only restraint on my freedom will be my wife.  I've already proposed to her that I want to give myself the retirement gift of a two-month road trip to go dirt-bagging it across the country to climb, snowboard, and surf, and she's said that there's no way I'm going to do this.  I've told her in no uncertain terms that I am indeed going to do this; I've even offered to fly her to a couple of the locations to spend a week here and there (probably Jackson Hole and San Diego) with me. But in these situations, she always puts up an immediate barrier.  Often, she relents, but on this one, I'm not sure she will.  So I may return from my road trip only to be served divorce papers.  We shall see.

I could still live like a king in Costa Rica on half my pension and investments . . .

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2016, 08:29:50 AM »
My spouse was initially VERY skeptical about my FIRE plans -- I will cut the cord 5-7 years before her

Wait, what? Explain this to me. You're married, but you plan to retire 5-7 years before your wife can do so? In other words, even though you as a couple can't afford to both retire in X year, you are going to stop working in that year and let your wife support you for another 5-7 years until you guys can afford to both retire?

Why would you not plan to keep working for, say, another 3 years so that you can both retire at the same time in year X+3?

You obviously didn't read the rest of my post.  Not only will my wife NOT be supporting me when I FIRE, but rather, I'll be supporting HER for the rest of her life with my pension and investments (and SS, because I've earned at a much greater rate than her).  And all these things, I am happy to give her.  What I ask is that I NOT have to wait until I'm in my 60's to retire.  My life centers around very physical activities -- viz., climbing 1,000-foot sheer cliffs, high altitude mountaineering, ski mountaineering (i.e., climbing a mountain then snowboarding down), climbing ice gullies and frozen waterfalls, and other outdoor, mostly mountain-related pursuits.  I have a relatively short window of opportunity to do these things.  At 50, I still do them all at a fairly high level -- but I have no illusions about how long I'll be able to do these things.  Yet I have the ability to put an end to my wage-slave existence and live the dream, and not in a half-assed, excessively frugal way, but with pretty solid resources to boot.  If I let my wife, or anybody else, stop me from fulfilling this dream of mine, I know that I will have a boatload of regrets on my deathbed. I don't want to have any regrets.  My wife knows that these pursuits sustain me.  She knows I am at my happiest when I'm doing them -- and she has chosen, through her own volition, not to join me or participate in any way in the things I love to do.  That is her choice.  I must make mine.  I think we can work a compromise, but she's a very stubborn person (only child who was over-indulged by her well meaning, but ultimately misguided parents), so it remains to be seen.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2016, 08:37:02 AM »
My spouse was initially VERY skeptical about my FIRE plans -- I will cut the cord 5-7 years before her

Wait, what? Explain this to me. You're married, but you plan to retire 5-7 years before your wife can do so? In other words, even though you as a couple can't afford to both retire in X year, you are going to stop working in that year and let your wife support you for another 5-7 years until you guys can afford to both retire?

Why would you not plan to keep working for, say, another 3 years so that you can both retire at the same time in year X+3?

I'm in a similar boat as Dude, albeit much further away from FIRE.

I am doing everything possible within reason to increase my income and savings rate to exit the work force ASAP. My SO has consciously chosen an education and career path that is not focused around $$. She understands the impact this will have on the length of her career, at 25 years old she can still change her path and join me in FIRE much sooner. I'm not going to work twice as long to make up for her choices.

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2016, 08:38:07 AM »

Truth is, my wife could quit the same time as me, but it would require a serious sacrifice on her part to lower her standard of living, which, considering my pension, plus the other $28k I could draw on a likely $700k portfolio, would put us @ $100k, is not exactly roughing it, ya know?  So, if my wife desires the frivolities, then she's on the hook for them.  I think that's only fair.

Dude,
 This must be rough for the two of you. How does your wife feel about "being on the hook for the frivolities"? My husband is definitely more spendy than me, but your post really makes me appreciate that he's still not a "normal" consumer. I guess we see more eye to eye than I thought.

She's fine with it.  She doesn't want to stop working!  She once said to me, when I discussed FIRE plans with her, "Well, I don't want to retire early.  I always figured I'd just work until I was 65. I like to buy nice things."  This, despite seeing her parents deteriorate rapidly after 70, cutting short their own retirement plans (lots of travel).  They say to me all the time, "You are smart for retiring early.  We wish we could have."  And yet, it still makes no impression on her.

She wants to keep making money so she can continue to buy all the things she wants, which include regular new shoe purchases (I count at least 7 pairs in the last two months, bringing her total to well over 70-75 pairs, easily; some have been worn once or twice, ever), new yoga wear (I think she singlehandedly keeps Lululemon in business), her designer jeans (saw a price tag on one the other day that was $186 -- though she insisted she got them on sale for $100(!)), and all other manner of clothing.  Are you feelin' me here?  This doesn't include the vast sums she wastes eating lunch out every day, buying useless plastic junk, expensive make-up and hair care products, and other frivolous spends too numerous to mention.

BeanCounter

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2016, 08:38:43 AM »
OP I almost hate to post my story as it ended in DH and I divorcing - although an amiable one with both of us being happier in the long run.

tl:dr version: both in the military, both planned to retire at 38 to travel, I quit he stayed, we divorced.

Long version: Ex-DH and I were both in the military and spent a lot of time apart, often living in different states, due to the job. So both of us agreed before marrying  that we'd do our 20 years and retire at 38, and be able to spend more time together and also to be able to do lots of very active adventure-type slow travel - beginning with getting a sailboat and sailing around the world. So a couple of years before our planned FIRE date we got the boat and outfitted it. Then he says he wants to stay in the service another 10 years with all the transfers and long deploments (I was out already and working a civilian job.I really liked a lot) and maybe work a similar civilian job another 20 years after that.

So, long story short, each of us spent a few years trying to compromise so we could be together but it didn't work out. I didn't like being retired while he worked so I stayed working even though he was 100% OK with me not working and also going off travelling long term - I just didn't feel right about it and also didn't want to have those kinds of long seperations anymore - either because of his job or my travel. But I also had huge burning desires to do sooooo many other things while younger it was almost painful for me to put them off any longer. And he felt the same strong desire to continue working at a job he loved. Now divorced we are both more fulfilled and happy.

I'd be lying if I said this wasn't at least of some concern to me vis-à-vis my S.O. and me.  I am an adventurer at heart; every fiber of my being cries out to travel and explore. When I see blogs like ouropenroad.com, I feel very strongly that I'm not living my life right.  I want to do what they, and others like them (including my friends and their daughter, who pulled up stakes a couple years ago, sold everything, and began sailing the Pacific, mostly up and down the Mexico coast -- they are an absolute inspiration). My wife, not so much. Whereas I can spend days in the backcountry sleeping in a tent and not showering, she couldn't fathom the idea; it's all hotel rooms and blow dryers, etc,. for her.  We've managed to co-exist peacefully and relatively happily for 10 years now, primarily because she gives me a fair amount of leeway to go on trips with friends to do the things I do in the mountains, and because I take her to sunny beaches several times a year as well (I scuba dive while she sunbathes).  But if I'm honest with myself, I know it's going to be really difficult for me to not indulge my wanderlust and need to be in the mountains when I have the freedom to do so, unfettered by any job restraints.  The only restraint on my freedom will be my wife.  I've already proposed to her that I want to give myself the retirement gift of a two-month road trip to go dirt-bagging it across the country to climb, snowboard, and surf, and she's said that there's no way I'm going to do this.  I've told her in no uncertain terms that I am indeed going to do this; I've even offered to fly her to a couple of the locations to spend a week here and there (probably Jackson Hole and San Diego) with me. But in these situations, she always puts up an immediate barrier.  Often, she relents, but on this one, I'm not sure she will.  So I may return from my road trip only to be served divorce papers.  We shall see.

I could still live like a king in Costa Rica on half my pension and investments . . .
So, what do you all enjoy doing together and how will that work if you RE?

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2016, 08:57:30 AM »
So, what do you all enjoy doing together and how will that work if you RE?

We actually do enjoy traveling together.  We travel regularly and pretty extensively.  She is a beach gal, so our travels together usually involve places with beaches (e.g., Mexico, Costa Rica, Honduras, Hawaii, Greek Islands). If there's surf and/or good scuba diving there, all the better -- she lets me do those things for a good chunk of the day, while she chills on the beach.  We enjoy doing cultural things together, like museums, concerts, historical sites, etc.  We run 5k's together several times a year (usually the holiday-themed ones).  We like drinking good beer together, especially at a good tap room or brewery.  We both love fine dining at good restaurants.  She is a really good person, very loyal, very committed, and I love this about her (it's likely the reason I married her), but she came up in a totally different environment than I did.  She was raised in a wealthy northeast town, as an only child, with great parents who just over-indulged her (paid for all college, bought her a new car both at high school and college graduation, and just pretty much never said "no"). I grew up very much lower middle-class, broken home at age 12 (after years of acrimonious marriage), mom re-married 4 years later to a pretty strict disciplinarian, joined the service, then worked my way through college and law school on my own.  Nothing was ever given to me -- for example, I had to work during the summer from the time I was 13 to buy my own school clothes. So we have very different views on a lot of things, though we mostly see eye-to-eye on most big picture things (e.g., both very liberal, non-religious Catholics).

But she is a jealous wife to my mountain mistress; that is, she doesn't understand the allure and satisfaction of doing the things I do (you can't explain, for example, what it's like to float down a steep mountain face on 12" of new blower pow to someone who doesn't do it). She'll sometimes remark, "you're only happy when you're climbing/snowboarding/in the mountains," and while that's not entirely true, I must confess that my happiest moments have indeed been found there.  She'll also sometimes say, "You'd be much happier if you were alone."  And again, there's some degree of truth to that, except that oddly, when I'm away from her for a period of time, I miss her and home. That's the thing about spending time in the mountains for me -- spend enough time in the city/at home, and I long for the mountains like nothing else; spend enough time in the mountains, and I long for my home/wife/bed.  Each makes the other more pleasurable, more enjoyable.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 08:59:42 AM by dude »

YBFree

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2016, 09:52:52 AM »
Typed a response last night but I guess it didn't post.  Divorce is not on the table (at least not because of this, lol).  I only referenced it because previous posters mentioned it.  I will look into the MMM resources on getting my hubby more on board with the MMM philosophies.  We've made a lot of progress in the last 5 years, so I'm hopeful that we'll continue to evolve and bend to a unified FIRE.  He's going through a sucky phase at work (though the career is his lifelong dream), so I think that is contributing to his jealousy of my blissful FIRE life.  We'll see if he decides to stick it out or quit.  I hope he sticks with it because he is one of the few people I know who's inner passion/calling aligns with their career.

I declined the job offer this morning.  The posters who said that guilt was the only reason I was considering it were right on target.  If I don't need to work, I refuse to compromise on what is important to me.  I don't have to, so why spend one second out of alignment with what feels right to me?  Have an interview for a remote/virtual role in about 30 mins.  Things have a way of working out when you follow your gut.



YBFree

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2016, 10:22:13 AM »
So, what do you all enjoy doing together and how will that work if you RE?

So we have very different views on a lot of things, though we mostly see eye-to-eye on most big picture things (e.g., both very liberal, non-religious Catholics).

But she is a jealous wife to my mountain mistress; that is, she doesn't understand the allure and satisfaction of doing the things I do (you can't explain, for example, what it's like to float down a steep mountain face on 12" of new blower pow to someone who doesn't do it). She'll sometimes remark, "you're only happy when you're climbing/snowboarding/in the mountains," and while that's not entirely true, I must confess that my happiest moments have indeed been found there.  She'll also sometimes say, "You'd be much happier if you were alone."  And again, there's some degree of truth to that, except that oddly, when I'm away from her for a period of time, I miss her and home. That's the thing about spending time in the mountains for me -- spend enough time in the city/at home, and I long for the mountains like nothing else; spend enough time in the mountains, and I long for my home/wife/bed.  Each makes the other more pleasurable, more enjoyable.

I think it is impossible to find someone who is 100% on board with and interested in the same things you are, but it sounds like you are both self-aware and in alignment on the BIG things, so you'll prob both love FIRE, just in your own individual ways...which is what freedom is all about, no?

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2016, 10:30:41 AM »
I hope so!  Sounds like you made the right choice.  Good luck with the latest opportunity.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2016, 11:54:39 AM »
I declined the job offer this morning.  The posters who said that guilt was the only reason I was considering it were right on target.  If I don't need to work, I refuse to compromise on what is important to me.  I don't have to, so why spend one second out of alignment with what feels right to me?  Have an interview for a remote/virtual role in about 30 mins.  Things have a way of working out when you follow your gut.
I wonder if your husband just doesn't realize how important it is to you. If my wife told me X is what she was the most happy doing, and we were financially capable of having her to do that, I would be over the moon excited for her. I want my wife to be happy, and not angry at life because of a commute/job. I can't imagine my desire for a nicer house being more of a priority than my wife's happiness, and I highly doubt he does either if you really get to the heart of the matter. Plus, for most people their attitude about work trickles down into the rest of their life, because work is such a big presence in their life. Instead of getting the tired leftovers of you at the end of a shitty day, your husband gets excited, fun you because you're happy with what you're doing.

This is a huge reason for why I'm leaving my career. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that work impacts me negatively and that bleeds into my home life. For me it's impossible to feel shitty all day and then flip a switch when I pull into the driveway. I believe I owe it to my wife to FIRE or do something else because I know it will make me a better person and husband.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 07:06:18 AM by Mr. Green »

Cassie

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2016, 03:34:54 PM »
Dude: I think you are making the right choice.  YOur wife could retire and doesn't want to change her lifestyle but that should not stop you. I have had too many friends die in their 50's and 60's or become too disabled to do the things they love. WE never know if our life will be long or short.  If you kept working you would be very resentful. As for the OP I would only take a job is you want to and work mostly remotely. I am an extrovert but could never work without a private office. I would not be able to think. I don't how people do it. You only have 1 life so live it the way you want too.

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2016, 07:01:13 AM »
Thanks, Cassie, I think so too!

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2016, 07:21:05 AM »
So, what do you all enjoy doing together and how will that work if you RE?

We actually do enjoy traveling together.  We travel regularly and pretty extensively.  She is a beach gal, so our travels together usually involve places with beaches (e.g., Mexico, Costa Rica, Honduras, Hawaii, Greek Islands). If there's surf and/or good scuba diving there, all the better -- she lets me do those things for a good chunk of the day, while she chills on the beach.  We enjoy doing cultural things together, like museums, concerts, historical sites, etc.  We run 5k's together several times a year (usually the holiday-themed ones).  We like drinking good beer together, especially at a good tap room or brewery.  We both love fine dining at good restaurants.  She is a really good person, very loyal, very committed, and I love this about her (it's likely the reason I married her), but she came up in a totally different environment than I did.  She was raised in a wealthy northeast town, as an only child, with great parents who just over-indulged her (paid for all college, bought her a new car both at high school and college graduation, and just pretty much never said "no"). I grew up very much lower middle-class, broken home at age 12 (after years of acrimonious marriage), mom re-married 4 years later to a pretty strict disciplinarian, joined the service, then worked my way through college and law school on my own.  Nothing was ever given to me -- for example, I had to work during the summer from the time I was 13 to buy my own school clothes. So we have very different views on a lot of things, though we mostly see eye-to-eye on most big picture things (e.g., both very liberal, non-religious Catholics).

But she is a jealous wife to my mountain mistress; that is, she doesn't understand the allure and satisfaction of doing the things I do (you can't explain, for example, what it's like to float down a steep mountain face on 12" of new blower pow to someone who doesn't do it). She'll sometimes remark, "you're only happy when you're climbing/snowboarding/in the mountains," and while that's not entirely true, I must confess that my happiest moments have indeed been found there.  She'll also sometimes say, "You'd be much happier if you were alone."  And again, there's some degree of truth to that, except that oddly, when I'm away from her for a period of time, I miss her and home. That's the thing about spending time in the mountains for me -- spend enough time in the city/at home, and I long for the mountains like nothing else; spend enough time in the mountains, and I long for my home/wife/bed.  Each makes the other more pleasurable, more enjoyable.
Sounds nice and like you all are working toward a good middle ground! That's what it is about.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2016, 09:03:33 AM »
My spouse was initially VERY skeptical about my FIRE plans -- I will cut the cord 5-7 years before her

Wait, what? Explain this to me. You're married, but you plan to retire 5-7 years before your wife can do so? In other words, even though you as a couple can't afford to both retire in X year, you are going to stop working in that year and let your wife support you for another 5-7 years until you guys can afford to both retire?

Why would you not plan to keep working for, say, another 3 years so that you can both retire at the same time in year X+3?

You obviously didn't read the rest of my post.  Not only will my wife NOT be supporting me when I FIRE, but rather, I'll be supporting HER for the rest of her life with my pension and investments (and SS, because I've earned at a much greater rate than her).  And all these things, I am happy to give her.  What I ask is that I NOT have to wait until I'm in my 60's to retire.  My life centers around very physical activities -- viz., climbing 1,000-foot sheer cliffs, high altitude mountaineering, ski mountaineering (i.e., climbing a mountain then snowboarding down), climbing ice gullies and frozen waterfalls, and other outdoor, mostly mountain-related pursuits.  I have a relatively short window of opportunity to do these things.  At 50, I still do them all at a fairly high level -- but I have no illusions about how long I'll be able to do these things.  Yet I have the ability to put an end to my wage-slave existence and live the dream, and not in a half-assed, excessively frugal way, but with pretty solid resources to boot.  If I let my wife, or anybody else, stop me from fulfilling this dream of mine, I know that I will have a boatload of regrets on my deathbed. I don't want to have any regrets.  My wife knows that these pursuits sustain me.  She knows I am at my happiest when I'm doing them -- and she has chosen, through her own volition, not to join me or participate in any way in the things I love to do.  That is her choice.  I must make mine.  I think we can work a compromise, but she's a very stubborn person (only child who was over-indulged by her well meaning, but ultimately misguided parents), so it remains to be seen.

I see what you're saying. If the things you love most require stamina and physical fitness then it makes sense that you need to retire as early as possible. I guess what I'm not understanding is why, even if she doesn't want to scale rock faces with you, she wants to keep working. Is there not enough money without her working, or does she not know what she'd do without a job, or does she want expensive consumer items that wouldn't fit into the post-FIRE budget, or what?

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2016, 09:41:51 AM »
or does she want expensive consumer items that wouldn't fit into the post-FIRE budget, or what?

Sounds like this is the issue. I know I don't think I'd handle it very well if my wife spent $100 on a pair of jeans (even if we could afford it)!

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2016, 12:51:19 PM »
or does she not know what she'd do without a job, or does she want expensive consumer items that wouldn't fit into the post-FIRE budget, or what?

These two, primarily, I think.  Though in truth, her working a little longer would pad the stash pretty nicely, and we like to travel a lot, so I'm fine with her continuing to work if that's what she wants -- so long as she doesn't view my freedom in a negative light.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2016, 04:55:33 AM »
Typed a response last night but I guess it didn't post.  Divorce is not on the table (at least not because of this, lol).  I only referenced it because previous posters mentioned it.  I will look into the MMM resources on getting my hubby more on board with the MMM philosophies.  We've made a lot of progress in the last 5 years, so I'm hopeful that we'll continue to evolve and bend to a unified FIRE.  He's going through a sucky phase at work (though the career is his lifelong dream), so I think that is contributing to his jealousy of my blissful FIRE life.  We'll see if he decides to stick it out or quit.  I hope he sticks with it because he is one of the few people I know who's inner passion/calling aligns with their career.

I declined the job offer this morning.  The posters who said that guilt was the only reason I was considering it were right on target.  If I don't need to work, I refuse to compromise on what is important to me.  I don't have to, so why spend one second out of alignment with what feels right to me?  Have an interview for a remote/virtual role in about 30 mins.  Things have a way of working out when you follow your gut.
I'm late to this thread, but I think you made the right choice!  Next time your in-laws say you don't work, show them your RE portfolio and volunteerism and the fact that you pay 50% of the expenses in your marriage!  You (and your wise investments) do work!

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2016, 06:26:37 AM »
Back to OP's situation, I wonder if part of the problem is that people are expected to have their work label, and your SO (and in-laws) just think that early retirement = a slacker. My brother retired early many years ago, and my mother is STILL sure that he isn't a good example to the kids, is doing nothing with his life... (about twice a year I get told how wrong his retirement is). The protestant work ethic is sometimes deeply ingrained, despite rational agreement.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2016, 06:30:21 AM »
Back to OP's situation, I wonder if part of the problem is that people are expected to have their work label, and your SO (and in-laws) just think that early retirement = a slacker. My brother retired early many years ago, and my mother is STILL sure that he isn't a good example to the kids, is doing nothing with his life... (about twice a year I get told how wrong his retirement is). The protestant work ethic is sometimes deeply ingrained, despite rational agreement.
This would describe my DH. He refuses to retire before 50. He thinks that others would think he was lazy. It does help that he loves his job. He's even said he's not sure he wants me to retire because he thinks having a working Mom is good for the kids, keeps them from being spoiled and teaches them to have a good work ethic.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2016, 03:14:14 PM »
YBFree, It sounds like you made the right decision.  I hope the remote opportunity pans out for you.

Personally, I worry about this type of situation.  I am divorced, but I wonder how my retirement plans would actually affect a long term relationship if I was retired and my SO was working.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2016, 06:11:29 AM »
I quit my job last week and half of the process is managing my husband's feelings and attitude towards my decision and what lies ahead. We are not yet FI, but have worked hard and saved aggressively over the last years and i want to take a break from corporate life to discover how I  can capitalize on my skills and experiences through consulting, freelancing and management-for-hire. I keep bringing up "What are you afraid of?" and keep drilling down to the root cause, but I don't think we have reached it just yet.

I know people are stuck in the mindset of working 9-5 until you die, but the reactions to my resignation have blown my mind. There is a lot of fear and jealousy from towards people who decide to go their own way!

Thanks for sharing your story. It reminded me that we are not alone. 

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2016, 10:42:35 AM »
So, what do you all enjoy doing together and how will that work if you RE?

We actually do enjoy traveling together.  We travel regularly and pretty extensively.  She is a beach gal, so our travels together usually involve places with beaches (e.g., Mexico, Costa Rica, Honduras, Hawaii, Greek Islands). If there's surf and/or good scuba diving there, all the better -- she lets me do those things for a good chunk of the day, while she chills on the beach.  We enjoy doing cultural things together, like museums, concerts, historical sites, etc.  We run 5k's together several times a year (usually the holiday-themed ones).  We like drinking good beer together, especially at a good tap room or brewery.  We both love fine dining at good restaurants.  She is a really good person, very loyal, very committed, and I love this about her (it's likely the reason I married her), but she came up in a totally different environment than I did.  She was raised in a wealthy northeast town, as an only child, with great parents who just over-indulged her (paid for all college, bought her a new car both at high school and college graduation, and just pretty much never said "no"). I grew up very much lower middle-class, broken home at age 12 (after years of acrimonious marriage), mom re-married 4 years later to a pretty strict disciplinarian, joined the service, then worked my way through college and law school on my own.  Nothing was ever given to me -- for example, I had to work during the summer from the time I was 13 to buy my own school clothes. So we have very different views on a lot of things, though we mostly see eye-to-eye on most big picture things (e.g., both very liberal, non-religious Catholics).

But she is a jealous wife to my mountain mistress; that is, she doesn't understand the allure and satisfaction of doing the things I do (you can't explain, for example, what it's like to float down a steep mountain face on 12" of new blower pow to someone who doesn't do it). She'll sometimes remark, "you're only happy when you're climbing/snowboarding/in the mountains," and while that's not entirely true, I must confess that my happiest moments have indeed been found there.  She'll also sometimes say, "You'd be much happier if you were alone."  And again, there's some degree of truth to that, except that oddly, when I'm away from her for a period of time, I miss her and home. That's the thing about spending time in the mountains for me -- spend enough time in the city/at home, and I long for the mountains like nothing else; spend enough time in the mountains, and I long for my home/wife/bed.  Each makes the other more pleasurable, more enjoyable.
It sounds like guys are pretty much in sync on all the big issues so once you're  ER I really don't think you'll have any problems with any if the difference in hobbies or spending some time apart. I have a lot of friends who have SOs where one is RE and one works FT. The RE ones often  spends a bunch of time doing their hobby (which is usually climbing/mountaineering or bike touring or just camping in far away places for a couple of months at a time) and all is well between all of them even if the working SO didn't start out as being too co.for table with the idea of time apart or even FIRE. But the working SO ends up liking and supporting them and often joins them at the beginning or end of the trip where they share a vacation they both like together.  So I think your spouse will end up feeling the same - especially since in reality you'll be around much more in day to day life (she may get sick of you and REALLY encourage you to go climb ;-)!). Plus you'll be SO much less stressed once not working (read Jon Snow's journal to see  the awesome positive change in his marriage once he was FIRE even though his wife still works) that she'll love the retired you even more. I really think you FIRE future will be just as great in all ways too.

I hope you're right, spartana, but I have my reservations.  My wife worries too much about what other people think.  I go away a few times a year without her (because I have a couple more weeks of vacation than she does) on climbing/snowboarding trips, and she's generally okay with that, but I also spend weekends away maybe 1 out of every 5-6 weekends, and she never tires of telling me that none of her other friends' husbands go away as much as I do, and so-and-so said, "Oh, he away again?"  And she lets this bother her.  I don't understand it.  It's not like I'm going away to Vegas or South Beach and staring at half-naked women or something -- I'm usually camping and climbing, with other DUDES! So we shall see. I can't imagine what her meddling little friends and co-workers will say when I'm not working anymore! I'm hoping to work out the kind of arrangement you mentioned, where I can maybe precede her to a vacation locale by a week, then fly her there for a week.  And that's just until she decides to join me in ER, after which, she can come along any time.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #78 on: April 05, 2016, 01:03:49 PM »
I always enjoy having the house to myself when my hubby is away. He feels the same.  Your wife may decide after a few years of you having fun to join you.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #79 on: April 05, 2016, 02:30:19 PM »
So, what do you all enjoy doing together and how will that work if you RE?

We actually do enjoy traveling together.  We travel regularly and pretty extensively.  She is a beach gal, so our travels together usually involve places with beaches (e.g., Mexico, Costa Rica, Honduras, Hawaii, Greek Islands). If there's surf and/or good scuba diving there, all the better -- she lets me do those things for a good chunk of the day, while she chills on the beach.  We enjoy doing cultural things together, like museums, concerts, historical sites, etc.  We run 5k's together several times a year (usually the holiday-themed ones).  We like drinking good beer together, especially at a good tap room or brewery.  We both love fine dining at good restaurants.  She is a really good person, very loyal, very committed, and I love this about her (it's likely the reason I married her), but she came up in a totally different environment than I did.  She was raised in a wealthy northeast town, as an only child, with great parents who just over-indulged her (paid for all college, bought her a new car both at high school and college graduation, and just pretty much never said "no"). I grew up very much lower middle-class, broken home at age 12 (after years of acrimonious marriage), mom re-married 4 years later to a pretty strict disciplinarian, joined the service, then worked my way through college and law school on my own.  Nothing was ever given to me -- for example, I had to work during the summer from the time I was 13 to buy my own school clothes. So we have very different views on a lot of things, though we mostly see eye-to-eye on most big picture things (e.g., both very liberal, non-religious Catholics).

But she is a jealous wife to my mountain mistress; that is, she doesn't understand the allure and satisfaction of doing the things I do (you can't explain, for example, what it's like to float down a steep mountain face on 12" of new blower pow to someone who doesn't do it). She'll sometimes remark, "you're only happy when you're climbing/snowboarding/in the mountains," and while that's not entirely true, I must confess that my happiest moments have indeed been found there.  She'll also sometimes say, "You'd be much happier if you were alone."  And again, there's some degree of truth to that, except that oddly, when I'm away from her for a period of time, I miss her and home. That's the thing about spending time in the mountains for me -- spend enough time in the city/at home, and I long for the mountains like nothing else; spend enough time in the mountains, and I long for my home/wife/bed.  Each makes the other more pleasurable, more enjoyable.
It sounds like guys are pretty much in sync on all the big issues so once you're  ER I really don't think you'll have any problems with any if the difference in hobbies or spending some time apart. I have a lot of friends who have SOs where one is RE and one works FT. The RE ones often  spends a bunch of time doing their hobby (which is usually climbing/mountaineering or bike touring or just camping in far away places for a couple of months at a time) and all is well between all of them even if the working SO didn't start out as being too co.for table with the idea of time apart or even FIRE. But the working SO ends up liking and supporting them and often joins them at the beginning or end of the trip where they share a vacation they both like together.  So I think your spouse will end up feeling the same - especially since in reality you'll be around much more in day to day life (she may get sick of you and REALLY encourage you to go climb ;-)!). Plus you'll be SO much less stressed once not working (read Jon Snow's journal to see  the awesome positive change in his marriage once he was FIRE even though his wife still works) that she'll love the retired you even more. I really think you FIRE future will be just as great in all ways too.

I hope you're right, spartana, but I have my reservations.  My wife worries too much about what other people think.  I go away a few times a year without her (because I have a couple more weeks of vacation than she does) on climbing/snowboarding trips, and she's generally okay with that, but I also spend weekends away maybe 1 out of every 5-6 weekends, and she never tires of telling me that none of her other friends' husbands go away as much as I do, and so-and-so said, "Oh, he away again?"  And she lets this bother her.  I don't understand it.  It's not like I'm going away to Vegas or South Beach and staring at half-naked women or something -- I'm usually camping and climbing, with other DUDES! So we shall see. I can't imagine what her meddling little friends and co-workers will say when I'm not working anymore! I'm hoping to work out the kind of arrangement you mentioned, where I can maybe precede her to a vacation locale by a week, then fly her there for a week.  And that's just until she decides to join me in ER, after which, she can come along any time.

Are you sure that it is really about what her friends say, rather than some slightly passive aggressive way of telling you that *she's* not okay with it?  Might be worth a conversation, if you have any doubts.  She may find it easier and more comfortable to express her disapproval by framing it as what other people think, rather than having to be direct and own her own feelings.  I don't know if that will make the situation and possible resolutions more or less difficult, but it least it would be correctly identifying the real issue.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2016, 11:03:08 AM »
The only restraint on my freedom will be my wife.  I've already proposed to her that I want to give myself the retirement gift of a two-month road trip to go dirt-bagging it across the country to climb, snowboard, and surf, and she's said that there's no way I'm going to do this.  I've told her in no uncertain terms that I am indeed going to do this; I've even offered to fly her to a couple of the locations to spend a week here and there (probably Jackson Hole and San Diego) with me. But in these situations, she always puts up an immediate barrier.  Often, she relents, but on this one, I'm not sure she will.  So I may return from my road trip only to be served divorce papers.  We shall see.

I could still live like a king in Costa Rica on half my pension and investments . . .

This sounds like a very difficult position Dude. I'm sure in the end everything will work out for the best. May your road to freedom be easier than you ever imagine.

Greenpez

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2016, 08:31:13 AM »
Maybe I misunderstood something, but why are you paying 60% of expenses?
From the OP: "while he covers the remaining 40% and basically all of our fun stuff like dinners out, travel, etc." I'm guessing that brings their total expenses closer to 50/50 when it's all said and done.

Yes, that's absolutely right.  We end up roughly 50/50 after all is said and done.  If it were up to me we'd just split household expenses 50/50 and then split the fun stuff 50/50, but he prefers this arrangement and I've sort of given up the fight as it does seem to balance out.  Might be worth a whole different thread on how other couples divide expenses when FIRE'd because we have been wrestling with what is "fair" for several months.

 I've never understood why couples keep their finances separate. My wife and I lump everything together and pay all expenses/allot savings out of that.

dude

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2016, 08:53:05 AM »
Maybe I misunderstood something, but why are you paying 60% of expenses?
From the OP: "while he covers the remaining 40% and basically all of our fun stuff like dinners out, travel, etc." I'm guessing that brings their total expenses closer to 50/50 when it's all said and done.

Yes, that's absolutely right.  We end up roughly 50/50 after all is said and done.  If it were up to me we'd just split household expenses 50/50 and then split the fun stuff 50/50, but he prefers this arrangement and I've sort of given up the fight as it does seem to balance out.  Might be worth a whole different thread on how other couples divide expenses when FIRE'd because we have been wrestling with what is "fair" for several months.

 I've never understood why couples keep their finances separate. My wife and I lump everything together and pay all expenses/allot savings out of that.

In our case, it is essentially the product of a long pre-marital relationship, to wit: 16 years.  You get pretty set in your ways when you've always had "your own" money in a relationship for that long. And well, change is scary.  Easier to just maintain the status quo, especially when it's mostly worked out just fine.  We both contribute to a joint account (I contribute bi-weekly to an account in her name that we call The Fund, which we use to finance investments, vacations, and for emergencies; she deposits her annual bonuses in the same).

BFGirl

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2016, 09:06:44 AM »
Maybe I misunderstood something, but why are you paying 60% of expenses?
From the OP: "while he covers the remaining 40% and basically all of our fun stuff like dinners out, travel, etc." I'm guessing that brings their total expenses closer to 50/50 when it's all said and done.

Yes, that's absolutely right.  We end up roughly 50/50 after all is said and done.  If it were up to me we'd just split household expenses 50/50 and then split the fun stuff 50/50, but he prefers this arrangement and I've sort of given up the fight as it does seem to balance out.  Might be worth a whole different thread on how other couples divide expenses when FIRE'd because we have been wrestling with what is "fair" for several months.

 I've never understood why couples keep their finances separate. My wife and I lump everything together and pay all expenses/allot savings out of that.

I think it depends on the situation.  When I was young and idealistic,  I thought spouses should co-mingle everything.  Two years post divorce, I am more inclined to keep most finances separate should I ever cohabitate or remarry. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 09:42:23 AM by BFGirl »

onlykelsey

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2016, 09:14:27 AM »
Maybe I misunderstood something, but why are you paying 60% of expenses?
From the OP: "while he covers the remaining 40% and basically all of our fun stuff like dinners out, travel, etc." I'm guessing that brings their total expenses closer to 50/50 when it's all said and done.

Yes, that's absolutely right.  We end up roughly 50/50 after all is said and done.  If it were up to me we'd just split household expenses 50/50 and then split the fun stuff 50/50, but he prefers this arrangement and I've sort of given up the fight as it does seem to balance out.  Might be worth a whole different thread on how other couples divide expenses when FIRE'd because we have been wrestling with what is "fair" for several months.

 I've never understood why couples keep their finances separate. My wife and I lump everything together and pay all expenses/allot savings out of that.

I think it depends on the situation.  When I was young and idealistic,  I thought spouses should co-mingle everything.  Two years post divorce, I am more inclined to keep most finances separate should I ever cohabitation or remarry.

Honestly, I'm protective of my finances as well, at least until DH shows some serious improvement in how he thinks about money.  I went from orphaned with no money at 17 to ~250K, condo in Manhattan and with degrees at 27, whereas he went from supportive family, nearly free college, small inheritance at 18 to -50K with no job at 31 when we met.  His family also has made clear they will only act as a safety net for their own (i.e. not me) so I'm not particularly interested in mingling until I'm very stable on my own.  I was very different with my longterm BF I met at 18 and sacrificed for years with.

That's not to say I make him pay 50% of everything (more like 20%), but I'm not interested in comingling more for now.  I've never had any fear he would steal from me, just that he'd mismanage. We're working on it.

Greenpez

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2016, 11:05:19 AM »
All good points! I think I was more surprised that it seems to be the norm to not combine. Most people I've talked to (a small sample size for sure) seem to be set up that way. Before we were married (when we started living together) my wife and I decided to combine.  Although that was partly due to her not wanting to have to deal with paying the bills (or ensuring they were paid).

 I'm sure it helps that we come from similar backgrounds, work in the same field, and are not especially hung up on money. she made considerably more than me when we first started dating but i've managed to catch up some. All that would have to make it much easier.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2016, 11:09:14 AM »
All good points! I think I was more surprised that it seems to be the norm to not combine. Most people I've talked to (a small sample size for sure) seem to be set up that way. Before we were married (when we started living together) my wife and I decided to combine.  Although that was partly due to her not wanting to have to deal with paying the bills (or ensuring they were paid).

 I'm sure it helps that we come from similar backgrounds, work in the same field, and are not especially hung up on money. she made considerably more than me when we first started dating but i've managed to catch up some. All that would have to make it much easier.

I think it's probably a generational thing, too.  I'm 29.  I think for my mom and her mom's generation, women generally didn't work outside the home after marriage, and instead contributed in way of household work, childrearing, unpaid labor.  In the educated coastal circles I run in, I think separate finances is the norm, unless you came from a religious background or otherwise got married quite young.  I got married last year and New Yorkers seemed concerned I was a child bride, haha.   Most people have their own financial house before they get engaged now.

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2016, 10:41:13 PM »
Wow, I'm sorry I didn't see this sooner. No one seems to have picked up on this, so perhaps I'm misreading this, but here's my two cents.

Start with the inlaws Sit down privately with the one who seems to be the most critical. Ask what their concerns are and really listen. It's possible that their behavior is just a reflection of their own retirement fears. It's also possible that your wife's fears stem from her parent's attitude. If you can politely assuage their fears, she may ease up too. Worth a try.

a-scho

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2016, 01:06:21 PM »
     If people tell me they think I should be working, I tell them, "By me not working, I've created a job opening for someone else who needs the money more than I do. Think about all the other people who are currently FI(hint hint) who could also create job openings by leaving the workforce before the age of 65!!!!" I say it super enthusiastically to imply that me NOT working is better for society as a whole.
      I consider working longer than you need to, financially, as a form of hoarding. It is okay(I guess) to continue hoarding if you truly enjoy it, but don't because someone else says you need to, or "everyone else is doing it", or out of guilt, or because your SO is jealous, etc.  This kind of relates to another post about the Golem Trust. Where we were brainstorming ideas on how to help others attain FI sooner. Leaving the workforce as soon as financially possible, even if you're in your 30's-40's, would be a way of spreading that wealth.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2016, 08:34:13 PM »
     If people tell me they think I should be working, I tell them, "By me not working, I've created a job opening for someone else who needs the money more than I do. Think about all the other people who are currently FI who could also create job openings by leaving the workforce before the age of 65!!!!" I say it super enthusiastically to imply that me NOT working is better for society as a whole.
      I consider working longer than you need to, financially, as a form of hoarding.

That hits upon two areas of ER that have always bothered me.  First off, the justification that leaving the workforce is better for society.  If Elon Musk left the workforce, or Steve Jobs had instead gave up, it would be better for society because they opened up a spot for some other guy (not that I don't like Tim Cook)?  Cuh'mon people, if you are better than average at what you do and are young and talented enough, leaving the workforce is self indulgent.  Once you are FI, you can do whatever work you like, but to say that you are altruistically giving up a spot to someone who sucks worse than you just to hand over the paycheck.  I dunno, seems self centered.  Or maybe an inferiority complex, if I feel generous.  FI has given me so many avenues to better the workplace for those less fortunate, which is the least I can do, as opposed to 'giving up' a job for someone who needs it.  I also like working and being less charitable than I probably should be, but I'm still waiting to see an ER become more charitable than me!

Second, being FI is not a form of hoarding, or else no-one would be FI.  MMM is FI and makes more money because he can't help it.  I'm the same way, I can't help but make more money.  Like my favorite saying, "it's not a bug, it's a feature".
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 11:54:34 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

pbkmaine

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FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2016, 10:16:52 PM »
If it's socially unacceptable, or you don't like the questions, you never have to tell people you are retired. Say instead that you are:
Developing a blog
Writing a book/play/epic poem
Consulting
Working from home
Managing investments
Working on a screenplay
Freelancing
Going back to school
Taking a sabbatical
Doing sleep research
Learning tax law
Designing a curriculum
Studying animal behavior
Putting together a portfolio of your paintings/photographs
Opening an Etsy store

Really, the possibilities are endless.

Metric Mouse

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2016, 04:35:12 AM »
That hits upon two areas of ER that have always bothered me.  First off, the justification that leaving the workforce is better for society.  If Elon Musk left the workforce, or Steve Jobs had instead gave up, it would be better for society because they opened up a spot for some other guy (not that I don't like Tim Cook)?  Cuh'mon people, if you are better than average at what you do and are young and talented enough, leaving the workforce is self indulgent.  Once you are FI, you can do whatever work you like, but to say that you are altruistically giving up a spot to someone who sucks worse than you just to hand over the paycheck.  I dunno, seems self centered.  Or maybe an inferiority complex, if I feel generous.  FI has given me so many avenues to better the workplace for those less fortunate, which is the least I can do, as opposed to 'giving up' a job for someone who needs it.  I also like working and being less charitable than I probably should be, but I'm still waiting to see an ER become more charitable than me!

Interesting line of thought. As you mentioned, could this largely depend upon the talent and value of the individual leaving the work force? As you pointed out, if Donald Trump left the workforce for example, there wouldn't be just another job opening for someone off the street, and society may be better off for him to continue to work and employee people etc. etc.

What about a less talented person? Sure I could have kept working to earn a modest paycheck and donated the entirety of what I made to charity, but isn't it more efficient to let someone who needs that money work themselves? It's sub optimum for a person to work full time to give it all away, when that same money could be given to an equally average someone currently earning nothing, and thus freeing up the first person's time to earn another, smaller amount, at their own pace.  And, even if it's a fair trade, and one person has to work full time to earn a big paycheck and a second person is able lounge around and earn scraps if they wish, myself, being FI, would much rather be lounging around, for a net change of 0 to society.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2016, 12:07:34 PM »
I was just getting tired of the spin people put on ER of it being some grand sacrifice freeing up their spot for the less fortunate.  When you leave a job you hate ASAP, which is a main driver for FIRE for many, don't then try to tell everyone how magnanimous your gift to society was.  Did you really hand over a dream job to someone who needs it, or create more dream jobs by vacating yours?  Really it is just the spin that I was getting at.

Ursus Major

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2016, 12:32:06 PM »
I was just getting tired of the spin people put on ER of it being some grand sacrifice freeing up their spot for the less fortunate.  When you leave a job you hate ASAP, which is a main driver for FIRE for many, don't then try to tell everyone how magnanimous your gift to society was.  Did you really hand over a dream job to someone who needs it, or create more dream jobs by vacating yours?  Really it is just the spin that I was getting at.

I see this "spin" as you call it only as a counterpunch to the ridiculous notion that somehow we owe it to society to slave away in our workplaces. In that sense it serves its purpose well IMHO. We don't actually have to believe it to use it as a rhetorical tool against those who'd like to make us feel guilty, because our choices are different than theirs.

avrex

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2016, 12:01:05 AM »
... the ridiculous notion that somehow we owe it to society to slave away in our workplaces.

+1.
I agree with you. 

I've heard the same argument from someone else once.  The argument goes like this. 
Person A is very smart and successful at what he does.  If he were to retire early, this means that the contributions that his successful work is making to society would stop early.  The argument goes that he's being selfish.  He owes it to society to continue making these contributions.

The above argument is ridiculous. 
I say, if Person A is happier to retire early (to pursue other personal interests), then good for him.  That's all that's important. 

Society doesn't have a say in the decision.  It's his decision!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2016, 06:24:11 AM »
... the ridiculous notion that somehow we owe it to society to slave away in our workplaces.

+1.
I agree with you. 

I've heard the same argument from someone else once.  The argument goes like this. 
Person A is very smart and successful at what he does.  If he were to retire early, this means that the contributions that his successful work is making to society would stop early.  The argument goes that he's being selfish.  He owes it to society to continue making these contributions.

The above argument is ridiculous. 
I say, if Person A is happier to retire early (to pursue other personal interests), then good for him.  That's all that's important. 

Society doesn't have a say in the decision.  It's his decision!

Sorry to have started what is turning into an Ayn Rand rehash of Atlas Shrugged.  I do agree that there is no nobility or argument for working just for works sake.  And of course successful people can do whatever they like.  If Warren Buffett or Zuckerberg or Elon decided to stop working today and sit on a beach, I don't foresee a giant uprising of the masses to drag them back to work. 

I was just getting at the spin ER's put on how great they are for giving their job to someone else.  It seems obvious, if you are happier being retired, that it was not a kind and gracious sacrifice to give someone else your job.

avrex

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2016, 08:02:04 AM »
I was just getting tired of the spin people put on ER of it being some grand sacrifice freeing up their spot for the less fortunate.  When you leave a job you hate ASAP, which is a main driver for FIRE for many, don't then try to tell everyone how magnanimous your gift to society was.
Yes, @EscapeVelocity, I agree with your point as well.

When I leave my job..... I'll just leave.  :)

Metric Mouse

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2016, 04:08:56 AM »
... the ridiculous notion that somehow we owe it to society to slave away in our workplaces.

+1.
I agree with you. 

I've heard the same argument from someone else once.  The argument goes like this. 
Person A is very smart and successful at what he does.  If he were to retire early, this means that the contributions that his successful work is making to society would stop early.  The argument goes that he's being selfish.  He owes it to society to continue making these contributions.

The above argument is ridiculous. 
I say, if Person A is happier to retire early (to pursue other personal interests), then good for him.  That's all that's important. 

Society doesn't have a say in the decision.  It's his decision!

Sorry to have started what is turning into an Ayn Rand rehash of Atlas Shrugged.  I do agree that there is no nobility or argument for working just for works sake.  And of course successful people can do whatever they like.  If Warren Buffett or Zuckerberg or Elon decided to stop working today and sit on a beach, I don't foresee a giant uprising of the masses to drag them back to work. 

I was just getting at the spin ER's put on how great they are for giving their job to someone else.  It seems obvious, if you are happier being retired, that it was not a kind and gracious sacrifice to give someone else your job.

Ahh... the virtue of selfishness. It's like college all over again...

Miss Prim

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2016, 08:31:54 AM »
I didn't read all of the responses, so I don't know if this has been asked before, but who will manage your properties if you go back to work?  If your properties are generating 60% of your income, I would say you are contributing enough without a job also! 

As to the discrepancy in wants vs. needs,  my husband really didn't have a lot of wants and worked part-time for a lot of years.  I would be jealous of him, so I eventually went part-time also.  Then, if I really wanted something such as finishing off my walk out basement, I would go back to full-time and work until I had the money and then when the next opportunity to go part-time again came up, I would take it. 

Finishing up the basement was the best thing ever, as now with our kids gone, we rent it out and it gives us more income in retirement.

If your husband has a need for a bigger, flashier house, than he should be the one working for it, and you need to reiterate that you are contributing enough to needs, not wants.

                                                                             Miss Prim

Slee_stack

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Re: FIRE with Unsupportive Spouse/Family
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2016, 11:09:50 AM »
I know the thread was just revived, but it was interesting to follow Dude's current situation.

On one hand, his arguments are very logical and I agree he shouldn't be held back from reaping the rewards of his labor and smart habits.

On the other hand, when one agrees to marriage, you are forced to accept the bad with the good.  That usually means sacrifice and not holding your partner's past or flaws against them.

I do hope things work out there!  I'm not sure if there is a 'right' or 'wrong'. 


Good, bad or indifferent, my SO and I will FIRE about the same time.  I could go earlier and justify my own reasons why, but for the sake of harmony and respect, it just isn't an option for us.

In the interim we'll both try to minimize the inconveniences we both put up with.  In the grand scheme of things, we know and appreciate our good fortune.  The rest is mainly noise.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:11:32 AM by Slee_stack »