The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: chevy1956 on January 18, 2021, 12:03:13 AM
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So far I haven't told anyone not even my parents. I'm sort of scared to tell people because I wonder what they will think and I'm even more scared to tell my parents who may react with asking me to do more stuff for them.
I'm really interested in how everyone has handled this issue.
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Your money, your business.
You're not obliged to tell anyone, especially if you think they may just take advantage of you.
For those who you do choose to tell, it will actually be a good litmus test. Will they simply be happy for you, or will they start to demand more of your time, money and attention?
I'm fairly open on these forums because so many like-minded people hang out here, but I don't share much with people in real life, especially if I know they're not similarly oriented.
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We only told FIL, who also FIREd himself. We thought he did so at 52-ish, but it turned out he worked much longer after that. Unfortunately, he has been proudly telling everyone he knows about our achievement. That was not our intention at all and the reason we didn't tell my mother who is usually the person who talks too much about her children. DH wanted to keep his FIRE secret, as he was officially still employed and only talking a year sabbatical. FIL lives in another country, so our secret hasn't spread here yet. But you should realize that you can't expect people to treat your secret the way you anticipated.
I had in the previous years told a few frugal coworkers about my FIRE plans, to inspire them to do the same. They asked me when I left whether this was it. Because DH wanted me to keep it secret, I had to say no, we are only taking a year of. Although I ended up telling one guy and asking him to keep it a secret.
Maybe next time I visit my mother I will tell her. She responded very positive when we took a year of, as she also realized that life can be too short (my father died at 50). I would just feel a bit awkward when my brother would find out. He has struggled a lot with unemployment and probably isn't in the best position for retiring. And not of his own fault.
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I did tell my friends and family when I retired. However, since I'm in my 50s, it was not quite such a big deal as it would be if I was younger. My announcement was well generally received - did not get much in the way of snark or annoying comments.
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I have only been retired 2 weeks and mid 50 I only told a few people that I was taking time off. I did not tell my family yet, concerned that they will want more of my time.
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Nope. People know I am not working, a few know I may not really plan to go back to work and a few keep asking when I will be looking for a job. Not sure how people would react but based on what I've seen so far don't know I want to see it.
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It's your business, but I would also explore where this fear is coming from.
That's a lot of power to be giving other people.
I don't share my personal finances with a lot of people specifically because I *don't* care what they think, so why bother sharing. But I have exactly *zero* fear of sharing with the people I do care about. I care about them because I trust them.
Do they always agree with my decisions? No, of course not, but I'm never afraid of their reactions because I trust them.
So why are you afraid of the people you should trust? It's not the end of the world if a loved one doesn't agree with one of your life choices. You won't suddenly explode if they think you are being foolish, so why be afraid?
My family and friends have frequently challenged my choices, but I know they do it out of love because they think I might be missing something. I listen, I respect their input, I tell them I appreciate that they care about me, and then I do whatever the fuck I feel like doing.
If you don't feel comfortable with this, I would consider that concerning, as this is the cornerstone of being an autonomous adult, and being confident in your ability to make serious life decisions.
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I did tell my friends and family when I retired. However, since I'm in my 50s, it was not quite such a big deal as it would be if I was younger. My announcement was well generally received - did not get much in the way of snark or annoying comments.
This was me at 54. Now I'm 62 and it's not really early any more. I still say it with gusto to anyone who inquires.
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I did tell my friends and family when I retired. However, since I'm in my 50s, it was not quite such a big deal as it would be if I was younger. My announcement was well generally received - did not get much in the way of snark or annoying comments.
This was me at 54. Now I'm 62 and it's not really early any more. I still say it with gusto to anyone who inquires.
Love this @Dicey !
I used to tell people when I found out about MMM et al because I was so excited and thought everyone should know about FIRE. But then I realized most people aren't all that interested, or are so fixed in their beliefs that altering their lifestyle just seems totally impossible.
I'm planning to leave my FT job this year and I'm asking myself how I'll communicate it. I kind of want to follow Dicey's lead since I'm in my early 50's and tell the world "I did it!" But more likely I'll just say "I'm taking time off to figure out the next steps and enjoy my youth while I've still got it."
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OP, I'm not sure from your description if you plan not to talk about it at all, or if you are trying to concoct some kind of cover story. I would caution you to think about how you will talk about this not just now, but 10 years from now. You might get tired of the story, but find a harder time with the whole truth after that long.
For me, I told my family that I expected to retire when I came back from Ireland. Of course, I expected that in 2023. Having come back to the US in 2020, I called it a sabbatical, and that was true: I wasn't sure how my stache would fare in 2020, I had received a European-sized severance that discouraged me from working for the rest of the year, and I used that time to think about where I was. Come 2021, I am fully retired. I do not shout it to the heavens, but I am open about it, if it comes up. And I have no trouble telling people "no" if they assume I have oodles of time to give them--I have a lot going on!
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OP, I'm not sure from your description if you plan not to talk about it at all, or if you are trying to concoct some kind of cover story. I would caution you to think about how you will talk about this not just now, but 10 years from now. You might get tired of the story, but find a harder time with the whole truth after that long.
For me, I told my family that I expected to retire when I came back from Ireland. Of course, I expected that in 2023. Having come back to the US in 2020, I called it a sabbatical, and that was true: I wasn't sure how my stache would fare in 2020, I had received a European-sized severance that discouraged me from working for the rest of the year, and I used that time to think about where I was. Come 2021, I am fully retired. I do not shout it to the heavens, but I am open about it, if it comes up. And I have no trouble telling people "no" if they assume I have oodles of time to give them--I have a lot going on!
Also be careful concocting a story that is actually a lie. It's psychologically exhausting and damaging to consistently lie to those close to you. Sometimes it's necessary, but it comes at a cost, which might be worse than just dealing with reality head on
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I hear what Malcat is saying, and I wish it was that easy, but I just can't see sharing FIRE with the friends I'm close with who are in debt or have no assets and feel stuck in life. How would I do that without rubbing "I'm so rich you guys!" in their faces?
I tell people selectively - if they are in a similar situation. Otherwise I keep it to myself.
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I hear what Malcat is saying, and I wish it was that easy, but I just can't see sharing FIRE with the friends I'm close with who are in debt or have no assets and feel stuck in life. How would I do that without rubbing "I'm so rich you guys!" in their faces?
I tell people selectively - if they are in a similar situation. Otherwise I keep it to myself.
Exactly why I don't really mention it. In my case some friends who scrape by cause they've made horrible life choices and then seem annoyed that I can do what I want
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I hear what Malcat is saying, and I wish it was that easy, but I just can't see sharing FIRE with the friends I'm close with who are in debt or have no assets and feel stuck in life. How would I do that without rubbing "I'm so rich you guys!" in their faces?
I tell people selectively - if they are in a similar situation. Otherwise I keep it to myself.
I never said it was easy, and I acknowledged that sometimes maintaining a lie is necessary, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come at a cost.
Also, FWIW, I have no problem being open about my financial circumstances with my loved ones who are struggling. I don't believe that I need to suffer along with them in order to be able to be close to them, to offer them compassion, etc.
I suffer from a severe, horrible, constant pain-causing illness and I don't resent my loved ones who are able-bodied and free of pain. I don't consider it "rubbing it in" when my siblings tell me about mountain biking and playing basketball.
Each person needs to determine their own solutions for managing interpersonal relationships. I'm just sharing that I consider it quite a harsh sacrifice to have to live a lie.
And there is a distinct difference between being private and straight up lying to loved ones. The latter is psychologically costly.
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OP @chevy1956,
I was willing to bet a lot of expensive beverages that this question had been asked loads of times prior.
Not so much. But some. Here are the most related threads.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/what-do-you-tell-people-you-do-do-people-believe-you-are-retired/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/friends'-reaction-post-fire/
I have not had negative reactions (but I was 53.5). I'd wait till a question arises and tell the truth. If other people can't handle it, you need to realize that the problem lies with those people, not you. A couple quick "no" answers to time-sucks should clear things up.
Of course, I'm 2000+ miles away from the old hometown, family etc, so there was no temptation for anyone to consider requesting me for time-suck tasks.
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I was willing to bet a lot of expensive beverages that this question had been asked loads of times prior.
Not so much. But some. Here are the most related threads.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/what-do-you-tell-people-you-do-do-people-believe-you-are-retired/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/friends'-reaction-post-fire/
I definitely see this question pop up periodically. Here are a few more examples:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-you-tell-friends-you-are-financially-independent/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-you-tell-people/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/am-i-obligated-to-tell-friends-about-my-fire-plans/
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I’m open about it with anyone who cares. I talk money with my family a fair amount because I want my parents to know I’m there for them. We talk through their own financial decisions. But my family is supportive and kind. They also have questions and want to make good choices, even if none of them are on the FIRE path.
I’ve always told my colleagues that my plan was save and exit our industry early. But most people don’t actually want to hear about it. And a lot of them don’t believe me so I don’t bring it up. But occasionally someone will tell another another colleague that I’m doing this crazy early retirement thing and they should come ask me about it. FIRE is not that familiar to many people so I’m always happy to introduce them to the idea in case they like it.
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I told my immediate family of my plan to FIRE a few years ahead to manage their expectations. A few friends also know since I've been planning to retire early since college.
My parents like to work and are the type to always look for opportunity to earn more. They didn't understand at first but eventually came to accept it.
My mom still worries I don't have enough and started giving me "pocket money" like when I was a kid though I repeatedly told her I'm ok. She started saying it's an advance on my inheritance. SMH and 😂
Almost felt like I'm boomerang and not FIRE'd
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Hi everyone. I've read through all the linked threads and the comments on here. It's great stuff. Thank You !
I tell you something the part of actually retiring to me is really tough. It's great to have a community on here to discuss this stuff. At the same time I feel like I'm complaining about something this is awesome. It's actually been a big adjustment phase for me. You can call it a detox phase but adjustment phase works better for me. I am completely down with the maths part of FIRE including investing and spending and SORR. I'm cool with all of this stuff.
Anyway atm I think I'm leaning towards telling anyone who asks that I'm on sabbatical which is true. I have no intention of returning to work. I'm loving this lifestyle. I will probably joke about how I can't see myself going back to work and see how that goes.
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OP @chevy1956, it is not clear to me if you are or are not currently employed.
If you have a boss, I wouldn't be explicit with your plans, until you reach whatever bonuses, promotions, layoff severance, etc you give a f#$% about.
Once you give actual separation notice (not sure of your location) you may or may not be frogmarched out the door, depending on company and boss.
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OP @chevy1956, it is not clear to me if you are or are not currently employed.
If you have a boss, I wouldn't be explicit with your plans, until you reach whatever bonuses, promotions, layoff severance, etc you give a f#$% about.
Once you give actual separation notice (not sure of your location) you may or may not be frogmarched out the door, depending on company and boss.
I'm getting paid up until November this year but I am not working. I've been off since October. I'm not giving any notice until the last possible minute. If there is any inclination I can get a redundancy with a payout I will try and get that but I can't see that happening.
I don't give a ### about telling my work anything but I work for a big corporate and I honestly think most people including my boss wouldn't care apart from probably wanting me to go back to work because I get along with most people I work with.
Still unless something drastic happens I'm not going back.
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I hear what Malcat is saying, and I wish it was that easy, but I just can't see sharing FIRE with the friends I'm close with who are in debt or have no assets and feel stuck in life. How would I do that without rubbing "I'm so rich you guys!" in their faces?
I tell people selectively - if they are in a similar situation. Otherwise I keep it to myself.
I never said it was easy, and I acknowledged that sometimes maintaining a lie is necessary, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come at a cost.
Also, FWIW, I have no problem being open about my financial circumstances with my loved ones who are struggling. I don't believe that I need to suffer along with them in order to be able to be close to them, to offer them compassion, etc.
I suffer from a severe, horrible, constant pain-causing illness and I don't resent my loved ones who are able-bodied and free of pain. I don't consider it "rubbing it in" when my siblings tell me about mountain biking and playing basketball.
Each person needs to determine their own solutions for managing interpersonal relationships. I'm just sharing that I consider it quite a harsh sacrifice to have to live a lie.
And there is a distinct difference between being private and straight up lying to loved ones. The latter is psychologically costly.
I hear what you are saying about compassion. I don't believe I need to suffer along with anyone either - the point of compassion is to listen and try to help, which I do.
The difference between finances and health in your analogy is - you don't blame the able-bodied for your situation. In the case of finances, some of my friends are angry at "society" or "the rich" for somehow making their situation what it is. We've been friends for 20 years - that's why this isn't easy - and when they talk about something being only "for rich people" or express anger towards some vague notion of "rich people" keeping them down, then I learn to keep my mouth shut. Also there have been times when I say something that just naturally rolls out of my mouth (not so Mustachian!) along the lines of - Can you hire someone to do that? And they get irritated with me for even asking.
Some are working but have been in or are in debt / living paycheque to paycheque. Some are on CERB / CRB (Canadian emergency benefits - 2k/month.) I can't really come out and say I'm ready to retire early. If there's a way to do it without ruining the friendship I'm still trying to figure it out. I don't really lie, I just don't fully explain my situation to some friends. When we hit our FIRE number I could only tell one relative (and this forum). I feel I am not judgmental of their situation, I really care about them, I just feel sad when I feel judged myself. We all are hard workers but somehow all have different patterns towards spending and saving and 20-30 years later that really becomes obvious.
I fully believe financial savvy should be taught in schools when we're young. It's such a shame that it's not, and that it's such a forbidden topic. There is a lot of anger and misinformation and emotion about the 1% and stereotypes of rich CEOs (or whoever) keeping people down. Some of us just work hard and know how to save and invest when we're young, and we keep going. It's not about being an evil corporate gold digger, but that's the impression most people who are struggling tend to have - that there's an 'us' and 'them.'
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@Mmm_Donuts It could be that your friend has a point if the tax system in your country generally favours the rich/wealthy people, which it does in some countries.
But in this case, I wouldn't tell the person about your finances, because they might resent you for it. Even though you personally haven't done anything wrong.
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I hear what Malcat is saying, and I wish it was that easy, but I just can't see sharing FIRE with the friends I'm close with who are in debt or have no assets and feel stuck in life. How would I do that without rubbing "I'm so rich you guys!" in their faces?
I tell people selectively - if they are in a similar situation. Otherwise I keep it to myself.
I never said it was easy, and I acknowledged that sometimes maintaining a lie is necessary, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come at a cost.
Also, FWIW, I have no problem being open about my financial circumstances with my loved ones who are struggling. I don't believe that I need to suffer along with them in order to be able to be close to them, to offer them compassion, etc.
I suffer from a severe, horrible, constant pain-causing illness and I don't resent my loved ones who are able-bodied and free of pain. I don't consider it "rubbing it in" when my siblings tell me about mountain biking and playing basketball.
Each person needs to determine their own solutions for managing interpersonal relationships. I'm just sharing that I consider it quite a harsh sacrifice to have to live a lie.
And there is a distinct difference between being private and straight up lying to loved ones. The latter is psychologically costly.
I hear what you are saying about compassion. I don't believe I need to suffer along with anyone either - the point of compassion is to listen and try to help, which I do.
The difference between finances and health in your analogy is - you don't blame the able-bodied for your situation. In the case of finances, some of my friends are angry at "society" or "the rich" for somehow making their situation what it is. We've been friends for 20 years - that's why this isn't easy - and when they talk about something being only "for rich people" or express anger towards some vague notion of "rich people" keeping them down, then I learn to keep my mouth shut. Also there have been times when I say something that just naturally rolls out of my mouth (not so Mustachian!) along the lines of - Can you hire someone to do that? And they get irritated with me for even asking.
Some are working but have been in or are in debt / living paycheque to paycheque. Some are on CERB / CRB (Canadian emergency benefits - 2k/month.) I can't really come out and say I'm ready to retire early. If there's a way to do it without ruining the friendship I'm still trying to figure it out. I don't really lie, I just don't fully explain my situation to some friends. When we hit our FIRE number I could only tell one relative (and this forum). I feel I am not judgmental of their situation, I really care about them, I just feel sad when I feel judged myself. We all are hard workers but somehow all have different patterns towards spending and saving and 20-30 years later that really becomes obvious.
I fully believe financial savvy should be taught in schools when we're young. It's such a shame that it's not, and that it's such a forbidden topic. There is a lot of anger and misinformation and emotion about the 1% and stereotypes of rich CEOs (or whoever) keeping people down. Some of us just work hard and know how to save and invest when we're young, and we keep going. It's not about being an evil corporate gold digger, but that's the impression most people who are struggling tend to have - that there's an 'us' and 'them.'
I did say that there's a huge difference between being private about your personal circumstances and lying about them.
It doesn't sound like you are lying to your loved ones, it sounds like you've decided it's judicious to be private and maintain certain boundaries because your friends cannot be reasonable about "rich people".
None of what you've said contradicts what I've said.
All I've said is that lying to loved ones comes at a significant psychological cost that shouldn't be under estimated.
Actually, your example above doesn't contradict that either, it clearly shows how hard it is on you to have to hide your life from some of your oldest friends. It's emotionally hard. That's my whole point.
At no point have my replies said "go ahead, tell everyone, it's easy!". My posts have advised to evaluate carefully what the situation really needs, because lying seems like a really easy option for maintaining privacy, but it isn't, it takes a huge toll if done with loved ones.
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@Malcat I'm not trying to contradict or disagree with you, I'm just trying to elaborate and add to the discussion :)
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@Mmm_Donuts It could be that your friend has a point if the tax system in your country generally favours the rich/wealthy people, which it does in some countries.
But in this case, I wouldn't tell the person about your finances, because they might resent you for it. Even though you personally haven't done anything wrong.
I think they THINK the government isn't hard enough on rich people, for sure. But our current government offers so many tax cuts and benefits that I do'nt really see what there is to complain about on that front currently. I also try not to bring up politics with these friends either ;)
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I'm still a ways from FIRE but my thought is I won't totally stop working until close to traditional retirement age. I'll probably have some kind of side gig such as flipping houses, owning rentals or selling stuff on Amazon. Making a bit of money could be fun and will give me an honest answer if people ask. Whatever I do will have a more flexible schedule which is my main issue with my current job. I don't mind working, I just want it to be on my own timeline. That will probably be the reason I give for not having a "traditional" job.
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@Malcat I'm not trying to contradict or disagree with you, I'm just trying to elaborate and add to the discussion :)
I must have misinterpreted.
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No. My immediate family has an idea but no specifics. For everyone else I’m a consultant/freelancer in the same area I used to work in full time. People don’t need to know I’m not really taking on projects or making an effort to get much work. I’ve done a few short things when people approach me but that’s about it.
In my view it just isn’t worth it unless people are in a similar situation. They get jealous or don’t understand, and I don’t generally want to broadcast that I have a lot of money—especially with people who are struggling. I’d rather talk about the things I care about and how I spend my days. And none of those require knowing my financial situation.
When I get older I’ll tell people. And I’m working on some volunteer and side projects that might eventually qualify as what I “do.” But for now this seems to be a good way to transition.
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Most of my family lives a distance away so its not something that really comes up in discussion. They know I contract and change companies regularly. So having some time off 'in-between contracts' would be normal.
I do however have a couple of close friends who are similar ages and also contract in IT and who are aiming to FIRE; we regularly chat about investments, our plans, 4% rule etc. I'm slightly ahead of them, so have been giving them advice, links to articles and websites etc.
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I didnt go out of my way 6 years ago at age 50 to tell people I fire'd but when asked what I do I said I am retired. Very few times did I get "Really"? as much as I got a "Good for you". Now at 56 barely get asked and its not really a big deal. Maybe I just look old for my age as being retired is so hard on oneself! haha
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It's interesting how often people ask what you do for a living when you first meet them. It became more obvious after I FIRED.
I don't have a standard response, but they are similar to the responses I have read above. If I am in a hurry or simply don't want to get into the discussion, I will say that I am presently unemployed. I find that this shuts down further discussion, since most assume it is not by choice and they find the topic awkward. As for friends, family, former co-workers or professional colleagues, they all new my situation. I did have friends and family express concern. Most were concerned that I would get bored or the lack of structure/purpose would negatively impact my well being. We don't share our financials or NW. Aside from my mother, none have even asked.
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It's interesting how often people ask what you do for a living when you first meet them.
I find that they ask "What do you do?" And so I tell them the things I do. Some show genuine interest in getting to know me and some follow up with some variation of "But money?!" The answer they get to that very much depends on my mood that day.
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The more people who think you're rich the more likely you are to get robbed. :P
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It's interesting how often people ask what you do for a living when you first meet them.
I find that they ask "What do you do?" And so I tell them the things I do. Some show genuine interest in getting to know me and some follow up with some variation of "But money?!" The answer they get to that very much depends on my mood that day.
I actually rarely told people what my profession was unless I actually wanted to get to know them, because I'm one of those professionals where the moment people find out, people have A LOT of questions, and even more opinions.
I usually answered with "I'm a consultant", which was my side hustle. If they don't really care, that checks the "what do you do?" box well enough for them to move on most of the time. Sometimes they might want to know in what field, and rarely much more than that.
One doesn't need to be retired early to have a need for firm boundaries.
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I appreciate all of the comments and links here; this topic is at the forefront of our minds as DW and I decide to really pull the trigger or OMY!
A while back I read something about being "rich" versus being "wealthy" and that is where any conversations with folks outside of the FIRE community cause my biggest concerns. At the end of the day I suspect any discussions depend on the audience involved.
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I'm curious for people that have told others, especially for ones that have done it without taking an early pension or something that's easily understood - what would you actually say? I'm retired.....? Do you give any details? I'm not talking about numbers, but do you reveal it to the point where you basically explain that you live off of the interest and growth of money that you have in an account? It seems like if you explained you were early retired if people were close to you/inquisitive at all, it would come down to them having a basic understanding of that fact. If they did have that fact, then they would know you had a relative crap ton of money in the bank, and I'm curious if that would change the relationship. That's always been the confusing/sticking point for me.
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The more people who think you're rich the more likely you are to get robbed. :P
The key is to look so poor and say you're "unemployed" that people - including random strangers and robbers - give YOU stuff! Being a minimalist helps too.
I like your style and will copy it in own FIREtirement :)
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I'm curious for people that have told others, especially for ones that have done it without taking an early pension or something that's easily understood - what would you actually say? I'm retired.....? Do you give any details? I'm not talking about numbers, but do you reveal it to the point where you basically explain that you live off of the interest and growth of money that you have in an account? It seems like if you explained you were early retired if people were close to you/inquisitive at all, it would come down to them having a basic understanding of that fact. If they did have that fact, then they would know you had a relative crap ton of money in the bank, and I'm curious if that would change the relationship. That's always been the confusing/sticking point for me.
Some time ago DH and I were having dinner at friends and talked about moving into the country. One of the friends carefully asked about our working plans in such a region, or whether that was not an important aspect. We told here that working was no prioritized anymore and that we didn't need any high paying jobs. Maybe a bit of consultancy work or any simple job would do. We are 47/50 years old, don't have children and have been living frugally. The friends seemed to accept the explanation and didn't ask for more details. But we didn't go all the way yet and tell them about retirement.
The friends own situation is that he is officially early-ish retired at 62 with an official pension. She is late 40-ies and still working for her pension. Most people cannot imagine retiring before their official pension kicks in. I would have thought that his pension could perhaps cover a retirement for two. But instead they use it on a few luxuries, like owning two holiday cabins and a saleboat.
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I'm curious for people that have told others, especially for ones that have done it without taking an early pension or something that's easily understood - what would you actually say? I'm retired.....? Do you give any details? I'm not talking about numbers, but do you reveal it to the point where you basically explain that you live off of the interest and growth of money that you have in an account? It seems like if you explained you were early retired if people were close to you/inquisitive at all, it would come down to them having a basic understanding of that fact. If they did have that fact, then they would know you had a relative crap ton of money in the bank, and I'm curious if that would change the relationship. That's always been the confusing/sticking point for me.
I've found that saying "I saved enough to equal a modest pension" tends to cover it quite well for anyone who doesn't really understand personal finance.
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It's interesting how often people ask what you do for a living when you first meet them.
I find that they ask "What do you do?" And so I tell them the things I do. Some show genuine interest in getting to know me and some follow up with some variation of "But money?!" The answer they get to that very much depends on my mood that day.
I actually rarely told people what my profession was unless I actually wanted to get to know them, because I'm one of those professionals where the moment people find out, people have A LOT of questions, and even more opinions.
I usually answered with "I'm a consultant", which was my side hustle. If they don't really care, that checks the "what do you do?" box well enough for them to move on most of the time. Sometimes they might want to know in what field, and rarely much more than that.
One doesn't need to be retired early to have a need for firm boundaries.
Lots of good points in here, thanks! I completely agree it depends on the situation, and that you really have no obligation to give more info than you want to. Showing confidence in your decisions always helps, too, as people tend to take their cues from how you present yourself. If you seem evasive they can see you as untrustworthy. I do believe it's important to have a story to tell about yourself--but that you 100% get to decide what to share in that story.
The "what do you do for a living" question always strikes me as really asking: "how do you contribute in a meaningful way to the world?" I try to start with "in my career I've done x, y, z" and then talk about the things I'm most proud of, transitioning from things I've done at work to "but what I'm really excited about right now is [fill in hobby/ side project/ volunteer work]."
Something simple that worked since I'm not even close to traditional retirement age: When I left my last job I changed my LinkedIn to self-employed as "_____ Strategist" and listed the things I most enjoyed from my career as my areas of expertise. People reach out every so often and it's kind of fun to have calls to share knowledge, to be honest. (And it's funny to me how just declaring myself an expert in what I like doing has random strangers reaching out about it. If I had realized this earlier and tried to make a business out of it, I probably could have avoided years of drudgery, ha!)
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It's interesting how often people ask what you do for a living when you first meet them.
I find that they ask "What do you do?" And so I tell them the things I do. Some show genuine interest in getting to know me and some follow up with some variation of "But money?!" The answer they get to that very much depends on my mood that day.
I actually rarely told people what my profession was unless I actually wanted to get to know them, because I'm one of those professionals where the moment people find out, people have A LOT of questions, and even more opinions.
I usually answered with "I'm a consultant", which was my side hustle. If they don't really care, that checks the "what do you do?" box well enough for them to move on most of the time. Sometimes they might want to know in what field, and rarely much more than that.
One doesn't need to be retired early to have a need for firm boundaries.
Lots of good points in here, thanks! I completely agree it depends on the situation, and that you really have no obligation to give more info than you want to. Showing confidence in your decisions always helps, too, as people tend to take their cues from how you present yourself. If you seem evasive they can see you as untrustworthy. I do believe it's important to have a story to tell about yourself--but that you 100% get to decide what to share in that story.
The "what do you do for a living" question always strikes me as really asking: "how do you contribute in a meaningful way to the world?" I try to start with "in my career I've done x, y, z" and then talk about the things I'm most proud of, transitioning from things I've done at work to "but what I'm really excited about right now is [fill in hobby/ side project/ volunteer work]."
Something simple that worked since I'm not even close to traditional retirement age: When I left my last job I changed my LinkedIn to self-employed as "_____ Strategist" and listed the things I most enjoyed from my career as my areas of expertise. People reach out every so often and it's kind of fun to have calls to share knowledge, to be honest. (And it's funny to me how just declaring myself an expert in what I like doing has random strangers reaching out about it. If I had realized this earlier and tried to make a business out of it, I probably could have avoided years of drudgery, ha!)
99% of the time it's absolutely not that profound of a question. That's why few people ever asked me any follow up questions when I said I was a consultant. "Consultant" means virtually nothing, if people cared, they would ask more, but they often don't. "So what do you do?" is more of a reflexive question than anything else, I even find myself automatically almost asking it when talking to new people and have to catch myself not to do it.
There's no bigger meaning to the question beyond the fact that we've all been conditioned to ask it, and don't have a ubiquitous alternative.
You're spot on about the importance of how you say things though. When I don't want to be questioned about something, I simply give off my "I don't owe you any explanation" vibe, and very few people will ask any follow up questions.
Even when I now say I'm "retired", if I don't want to explain, people get the message and they don't probe. They'll often say "but you're so young!" And if I don't feel like treating that as a question, then I don't. I just say "yep" and leave it at that.
On the very rare times that someone I don't care about is being pushy and insisting that they are entitled to explanations, I'll proffer "are you trying to ask me about my personal finances?" and that will almost always silence even the most entitled pain in the ass.
If I'm talking to someone I actually care about, I'll handle it very differently, but I'm extremely open with the people I care about.
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I'm about to FIRE and have struggled a bit with who to tell how much. I was originally thinking of trying to screen this information away from the family members who I don't get along with as well, but recently decided it would just be too difficult to keep it totally secret from them.
I'm probably still going to tell my mom I'm "on sabbatical," because I don't think she will understand the FIRE thing at all -- but I'm not going to ask other people to lie to her about it for me. Maybe she'll be confused, but so be it.
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I think the main reason people ask "what do you do" is because that's where most people spend the majority of their time. If someone asked me what I do outside of work, I don't think they'd find "eat dinner and sleep" all that interesting, so they ask about how you spend the vast majority of your time instead.
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I'm curious for people that have told others, especially for ones that have done it without taking an early pension or something that's easily understood - what would you actually say? I'm retired.....? Do you give any details? I'm not talking about numbers, but do you reveal it to the point where you basically explain that you live off of the interest and growth of money that you have in an account? It seems like if you explained you were early retired if people were close to you/inquisitive at all, it would come down to them having a basic understanding of that fact. If they did have that fact, then they would know you had a relative crap ton of money in the bank, and I'm curious if that would change the relationship. That's always been the confusing/sticking point for me.
I've found that saying "I saved enough to equal a modest pension" tends to cover it quite well for anyone who doesn't really understand personal finance.
Thanks for all the responses. This one really made me think. I tend to think everyone has my perspective and understanding on what savings to equal a modest pension would look like, but that's a great point that most people have so little of a clue about personal finance that they could very easily not know what the nuts and bolts of that would mean.
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I'm curious for people that have told others, especially for ones that have done it without taking an early pension or something that's easily understood - what would you actually say? I'm retired.....? Do you give any details? I'm not talking about numbers, but do you reveal it to the point where you basically explain that you live off of the interest and growth of money that you have in an account? It seems like if you explained you were early retired if people were close to you/inquisitive at all, it would come down to them having a basic understanding of that fact. If they did have that fact, then they would know you had a relative crap ton of money in the bank, and I'm curious if that would change the relationship. That's always been the confusing/sticking point for me.
I've found that saying "I saved enough to equal a modest pension" tends to cover it quite well for anyone who doesn't really understand personal finance.
Thanks for all the responses. This one really made me think. I tend to think everyone has my perspective and understanding on what savings to equal a modest pension would look like, but that's a great point that most people have so little of a clue about personal finance that they could very easily not know what the nuts and bolts of that would mean.
Just reverse engineer the logic. If someone thinks you're "rich" because you have a million dollars and have retired early, then they're also clueless enough not to understand that "the equivalent of a modest pension" equals a million dollars in the bank.
It's possible to be completely honest with people without drawing their attention to what they don't need to realize.
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We have told people we care about. Not shout it from the roof tops, but if people ask, we tell them.
DH did facebook it. Mom also states that we are happily retired and doing this and that in her Christmas letter to family and friends (making it official) so it is pretty widely known. It is how we are living now, and we aren't ones to really obfuscate. How people choose to feel about it is their responsibility. Several people have asked for money advice and I meet with some of them regularly to help them reach their goals (some FIRE, some other things entirely).
People we are just passing by (like those that ask "so what do you do") they get an answer relevant to the environment we are in. Most people are just being polite and would much rather talk about themselves, they aren't really asking big deep questions. I'd rather hear what they have to say since I already know how I spend my time.
If people are fishing for conversation starters or things we have in common, then old jobs help etc. Just figure out the point of the conversation and build from there.
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I've told my mom before about my plan to retire early and she retired in her early 50s so she was completely receptive to the idea. Other than that, I told my uncle since he's also retired and he was proud of me to reach FI so early in life. He doesn't know my NW but he knows I don't have to work again if I don't want to.
To other friends and family, I just said that I was laid off and I'm on a break right now. Some suggest to try applying here or there, some say you'll get something. I just smile and say thank you and I'm not worried about it. I don't feel that I have to explain anything and letting them know doesn't add anything to our relationship either so I chose not to. Nobody pressed for more details so far.
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I'm not FI yet, but there are some people I will tell. Honestly, most of my friends won't care. I'm not going to shout it from the rooftops, but I likely won't lie about it.
My parents FIREd so I know they will be happy for me. I also have a few friends who are on the FIRE path. We share milestones now and so they will probably be the first people I let know when I cross that finish line. I'll also probably tell my best friend. She's not interested in FIRE, but I've discussed it with her. I know she'll be happy for me and isn't the type to judge or ask for money.
The only exception I can see is my partners mom. She's mentally unstable, a hoarder, constantly being kicked out of places. We're mostly NC with her, but she doesn't ever need to know our financial situation IMO.
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My family and my in-laws/extended family would think I'm crazy if I told them I'm thinking about FIRE. So I'd avoid using that term. Like @spartana, I'd probably use the term "Sabbatical" or "in between jobs" or "career change" lol
I think if anything I'll probably and hopefully go in some form of Coast/Barista/Lean FIRE (or a combination of the three) where my wife and I are working some 'odd jobs' that we actually enjoy or that we can at least do on our own terms and time.
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OP, I'm not sure from your description if you plan not to talk about it at all, or if you are trying to concoct some kind of cover story. I would caution you to think about how you will talk about this not just now, but 10 years from now. You might get tired of the story, but find a harder time with the whole truth after that long.
For me, I told my family that I expected to retire when I came back from Ireland. Of course, I expected that in 2023. Having come back to the US in 2020, I called it a sabbatical, and that was true: I wasn't sure how my stache would fare in 2020, I had received a European-sized severance that discouraged me from working for the rest of the year, and I used that time to think about where I was. Come 2021, I am fully retired. I do not shout it to the heavens, but I am open about it, if it comes up. And I have no trouble telling people "no" if they assume I have oodles of time to give them--I have a lot going on!
Also be careful concocting a story that is actually a lie. It's psychologically exhausting and damaging to consistently lie to those close to you. Sometimes it's necessary, but it comes at a cost, which might be worse than just dealing with reality head on
Couldn't agree more with this. And frankly, I think it is messed up to lie to the people one professes to care about, without a damn good reason. (And "it's hard to say no" isn't a damn good reason.)
I think there are ways to finesse the truth so that you aren't outright lying. My spouse is still working, but I quite to be an overseas trailing spouse and as it turns out, I may have actually retired, though that wasn't the plan--or even a remote possibility we considered--at the time. For now, I am working on my writing, hoping to eventually publish and make a few bucks. So I tell strangers I am a writer (and I am!) and I tell friends and family that I'm trying to make a go at writing (also very true) and only those closest to me get told that it's unlikely I will ever pursue regular employment again but I'm working on writing which I hope will provide a little bit of extra income in our future.
None of those things are lies or even significant stretches of the truth. I can't imagine flat out telling someone I claim to care about that I have a part time job when I don't, or that I've been looking for work and can't find it, or whatever. Now, if it's not someone I care about but I somehow find myself in a position where I can't just say, "that's not really any of your business" or even "I'm not comfortable sharing that"? Maybe I'd lie, but then it's going to be someone who plays basically no role in my life, not a friend--no matter how casual--or a family member.
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I am surprised how interesting this question has been in my short 1 year retirement.
On the day I retired at 54, I told my large AA group, today was my last day of work. Many people knew and everybody close to me. Probably because a few years ago at age 50, I resigned and my boss talked me into staying part time, which I did for a few years. So, I have already had discussions with those around me.
Overtime, I see someone whom I haven't seen in a while, and they ask me, "Have you retired yet?". I feel very proud to answer yeah about a year ago, which seems like a long time. I feel proud because it was a hard decision emotionally, more so than financially.
One of the best feeling I have experienced in retirement is when I hear some of my friends complain about having to still work. Mostly because these are the exact people who always pointed out how cheap I was, when I try to save a buck here or there.
And I have also noticed over time, when I don't know someone well and they say what do you do, I sometimes say I am retired, if I want to get to know them more, or sometimes, I just say, I'm not working right now. I don't fee like I am lying, because sometimes I have thought about going back to work. Usually, I just sit and wait for that compulsion to pass, but I mostly blame it on covid lockdowns and the lack of interaction and travel restrictions. I look forward to experiencing retirement more again soon.
The other reason that I have been very happy to be retired and healthy is seeing quite a few folks who work longer and seem to have physical challenges very early in retirement. So, I am grateful for each day of retired health.
Overall, most people are happy for me, when I say I am retired, but frankly, I don't really think they care that much because they are thinking about themselves.
I really appreciate this community and hearing all the discussion. Thanks.
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Eh, if anyone inquires sure I tell them. I never go into personal details about our finances. I think they can surmise we saved a lot of money. I am always happy to give tips to them. I've had folks talk about how they have been wanting to simplify their lives more (downsize, sell the expensive car, get rid of crap, etc.) but it always seems that their significant other wants more.
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One of the best feeling I have experienced in retirement is when I hear some of my friends complain about having to still work. Mostly because these are the exact people who always pointed out how cheap I was, when I try to save a buck here or there.
And I have also noticed over time, when I don't know someone well and they say what do you do, I sometimes say I am retired, if I want to get to know them more, or sometimes, I just say, I'm not working right now. I don't fee like I am lying, because sometimes I have thought about going back to work. Usually, I just sit and wait for that compulsion to pass, but I mostly blame it on covid lockdowns and the lack of interaction and travel restrictions. I look forward to experiencing retirement more again soon.
Heh, yeah, I'm pretty sure the two reactions I'll get is "of course, he made a ton more money than me" from those I out-earned and "of course, he's always been a cheap bastard" from my similar income peers.
And given I've worked from home for over a decade now, and that my hours often fluctuated both in when and how much, I don't think the people I don't bring it up with will even notice.
But in the end it looks like I'll be 50 when I completely pull the trigger, so its not like its the oddball move as someone at say 35 (heck my kids think of me as an old man anyway so of course I should be retiring soon)
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"lying to loved ones comes at a significant psychological cost that shouldn't be under estimated. "
You certainly take a different perspective than my husband. A few years ago we paid off our house. Although I had no compulsion to tell people, if asked I felt no compulsion to lie either. My husband forbade me to tell anybody - I told him I had a hard time lying when asked point blank. And the weird thing is, it is unbelievalbe how many times I am asked if our house is paid off. I do consider it a prying question, but I do not like being under an edict to lie. My husband's Mom has asked me numerous times how long until our house is paid off.
I retired at 42. My husband still works so it does not seem odd. He could stop working at any time. I see little upside of talking finance to others. I was very excited when I discovered MMM. I tried to share the philosophy with others - they were not interested. If my husband were to retire tomorrow if queried it would be a simple we saved and compounding is amazing.
And Malcat I do want to know what you did. And dont say consulting.
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"lying to loved ones comes at a significant psychological cost that shouldn't be under estimated. "
You certainly take a different perspective than my husband. A few years ago we paid off our house. Although I had no compulsion to tell people, if asked I felt no compulsion to lie either. My husband forbade me to tell anybody - I told him I had a hard time lying when asked point blank. And the weird thing is, it is unbelievalbe how many times I am asked if our house is paid off. I do consider it a prying question, but I do not like being under an edict to lie. My husband's Mom has asked me numerous times how long until our house is paid off.
I retired at 42. My husband still works so it does not seem odd. He could stop working at any time. I see little upside of talking finance to others. I was very excited when I discovered MMM. I tried to share the philosophy with others - they were not interested. If my husband were to retire tomorrow if queried it would be a simple we saved and compounding is amazing.
And Malcat I do want to know what you did. And dont say consulting.
Again, there's a difference between being private and sustaining a meaningful lie.
If I had a paid off house and didn't want to share it, I would tell partial truths and employ redirection.
"Is your house paid off?"
"We've made extra payments on the mortgage, but with these super low interest rates, I wonder if it makes more sense these days to just keep a mortgage and invest more? What do you think?"
In dealing with in laws, I'll always defer to my spouse as to how it should be handled, and I am willing to sustain White lies on that front because I'm not overly close with some of mine, and yes, they can be invasive. However, I'm never left stranded, and we devise a clear messaging that we stick to, like politicians trying to manage a scandal.
I already fully acknowledged that sometimes deception is the best course of action, but as I said before, that doesn't mean that it doesn't take it's toll. I'm sure it takes its toll on your DH too, even if he feels it's worth it.
As for me, I'm a retired medical professional, and had side hustles in financial and management consulting for other health professionals. In my particular medical area, people tend to have a ton of questions, so if I lead with that, I know I'm stuck in doctor mode for awhile, which on my off hours, I just don't want, so I stick with "consultant" and then few people care.
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"lying to loved ones comes at a significant psychological cost that shouldn't be under estimated. "
You certainly take a different perspective than my husband. A few years ago we paid off our house. Although I had no compulsion to tell people, if asked I felt no compulsion to lie either. My husband forbade me to tell anybody - I told him I had a hard time lying when asked point blank. And the weird thing is, it is unbelievalbe how many times I am asked if our house is paid off. I do consider it a prying question, but I do not like being under an edict to lie. My husband's Mom has asked me numerous times how long until our house is paid off.
I retired at 42. My husband still works so it does not seem odd. He could stop working at any time. I see little upside of talking finance to others. I was very excited when I discovered MMM. I tried to share the philosophy with others - they were not interested. If my husband were to retire tomorrow if queried it would be a simple we saved and compounding is amazing.
And Malcat I do want to know what you did. And dont say consulting.
Again, there's a difference between being private and sustaining a meaningful lie.
If I had a paid off house and didn't want to share it, I would tell partial truths and employ redirection.
"Is your house paid off?"
"We've made extra payments on the mortgage, but with these super low interest rates, I wonder if it makes more sense these days to just keep a mortgage and invest more? What do you think?"
In dealing with in laws, I'll always defer to my spouse as to how it should be handled, and I am willing to sustain White lies on that front because I'm not overly close with some of mine, and yes, they can be invasive. However, I'm never left stranded, and we devise a clear messaging that we stick to, like politicians trying to manage a scandal.
I already fully acknowledged that sometimes deception is the best course of action, but as I said before, that doesn't mean that it doesn't take it's toll. I'm sure it takes its toll on your DH too, even if he feels it's worth it.
As for me, I'm a retired medical professional, and had side hustles in financial and management consulting for other health professionals. In my particular medical area, people tend to have a ton of questions, so if I lead with that, I know I'm stuck in doctor mode for awhile, which on my off hours, I just don't want, so I stick with "consultant" and then few people care.
Such a sad but accurate way to put it. How crazy is the world that "we" post for all the world to see on social media the $75,000 new truck we got but treating saving that same money responsibly is more akin to a scandal. Not saying you meant it entirely this way; it's just what came to mind.
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"lying to loved ones comes at a significant psychological cost that shouldn't be under estimated. "
You certainly take a different perspective than my husband. A few years ago we paid off our house. Although I had no compulsion to tell people, if asked I felt no compulsion to lie either. My husband forbade me to tell anybody - I told him I had a hard time lying when asked point blank. And the weird thing is, it is unbelievalbe how many times I am asked if our house is paid off. I do consider it a prying question, but I do not like being under an edict to lie. My husband's Mom has asked me numerous times how long until our house is paid off.
I retired at 42. My husband still works so it does not seem odd. He could stop working at any time. I see little upside of talking finance to others. I was very excited when I discovered MMM. I tried to share the philosophy with others - they were not interested. If my husband were to retire tomorrow if queried it would be a simple we saved and compounding is amazing.
And Malcat I do want to know what you did. And dont say consulting.
Again, there's a difference between being private and sustaining a meaningful lie.
If I had a paid off house and didn't want to share it, I would tell partial truths and employ redirection.
"Is your house paid off?"
"We've made extra payments on the mortgage, but with these super low interest rates, I wonder if it makes more sense these days to just keep a mortgage and invest more? What do you think?"
In dealing with in laws, I'll always defer to my spouse as to how it should be handled, and I am willing to sustain White lies on that front because I'm not overly close with some of mine, and yes, they can be invasive. However, I'm never left stranded, and we devise a clear messaging that we stick to, like politicians trying to manage a scandal.
I already fully acknowledged that sometimes deception is the best course of action, but as I said before, that doesn't mean that it doesn't take it's toll. I'm sure it takes its toll on your DH too, even if he feels it's worth it.
As for me, I'm a retired medical professional, and had side hustles in financial and management consulting for other health professionals. In my particular medical area, people tend to have a ton of questions, so if I lead with that, I know I'm stuck in doctor mode for awhile, which on my off hours, I just don't want, so I stick with "consultant" and then few people care.
Such a sad but accurate way to put it. How crazy is the world that "we" post for all the world to see on social media the $75,000 new truck we got but treating saving that same money responsibly is more akin to a scandal. Not saying you meant it entirely this way; it's just what came to mind.
Lol, well I was personally not at ALL referring to anything to do with FIRE or personal finance. I truly don't give a fuck on that front, and I have always let my freak-flag fly.
What I was referring to was my particular case of having complex health issues and having some in-laws who like to ask me a lot of invasive questions about very personal aspects of my body, and not because they care. So I prefer to stay quite private about the struggles I deal with day to day because it's none of their fucking business. So DH and I have "talking points" that we both know to stick to, and not stray from.
My point was that sometimes privacy is incredibly important, but that should be determined by the individuals, not by society.
I truly don't give a flying fuck what society expects of me, but I do have certain parts of myself that I prefer not to share openly, regardless of what society thinks about it.
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I'm curious for people that have told others, especially for ones that have done it without taking an early pension or something that's easily understood - what would you actually say? I'm retired.....? Do you give any details? I'm not talking about numbers, but do you reveal it to the point where you basically explain that you live off of the interest and growth of money that you have in an account? It seems like if you explained you were early retired if people were close to you/inquisitive at all, it would come down to them having a basic understanding of that fact. If they did have that fact, then they would know you had a relative crap ton of money in the bank, and I'm curious if that would change the relationship. That's always been the confusing/sticking point for me.
I've found that saying "I saved enough to equal a modest pension" tends to cover it quite well for anyone who doesn't really understand personal finance.
An update on this thread. I've just told my parents and some close friends and this is the line I used.
My parents are both horrified but I think they accepted it. My friends think I'm cheap. My brother is happy.
I'm glad I've gotten this off my chest.
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I've found that saying "I saved enough to equal a modest pension" tends to cover it quite well for anyone who doesn't really understand personal finance.
An update on this thread. I've just told my parents and some close friends and this is the line I used.
My parents are both horrified but I think they accepted it. My friends think I'm cheap. My brother is happy.
I'm glad I've gotten this off my chest.
This is a great line and I hope that we will use it someday soon. Congrats on your retirement!
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"lying to loved ones comes at a significant psychological cost that shouldn't be under estimated. "
You certainly take a different perspective than my husband. A few years ago we paid off our house. Although I had no compulsion to tell people, if asked I felt no compulsion to lie either. My husband forbade me to tell anybody - I told him I had a hard time lying when asked point blank. And the weird thing is, it is unbelievalbe how many times I am asked if our house is paid off. I do consider it a prying question, but I do not like being under an edict to lie. My husband's Mom has asked me numerous times how long until our house is paid off.
I retired at 42. My husband still works so it does not seem odd. He could stop working at any time. I see little upside of talking finance to others. I was very excited when I discovered MMM. I tried to share the philosophy with others - they were not interested. If my husband were to retire tomorrow if queried it would be a simple we saved and compounding is amazing.
And Malcat I do want to know what you did. And dont say consulting.
Yeah, I wouldn't be okay with that. Both DH and I tell white lies and ask each other to support white lies among our families. But that's for very minor and generally short-term things. And if either one of us were every uncomfortable with, we'd tell the other and that would be the end of it. I'd never push him to lie to them if he wasn't comofrtable with it.
I think I'd go back to DH and say that I just wasn't comfortable anymore and I either needed to be able to tell the truth, or to respond with "talk to your son about that; we agreed I'm not going to discuss it", or something along those lines, and then he could deal with it and with the weirdness that creates. And I'd repeat that every time.
It is a bit strange to me that people ask if your house is paid off. I've never been asked that (though we live in a rental now, but still own our old place and rent it out), have never asked anyone, and have never heard anyone ask that. To me, it is an extremely presumptuous question for anyone but a very close friend or relative. (Which I'd say a MIL qualifies as, but not many others. ) So it seems super odd that this comes up so frequently for you. But for most people just a "I don't like to discuss finances" would probably do.
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Last year, I switched half of my investments from index investing to picking beaten up stocks and leveraged ETFs (my theory was simply "stocks recover"). At that time, I knew the returns could be insane. If it worked, I would feel bad if I had not told my friends. To avoid that, I communicated enough about my investment idea so that friends could decide for themselves. I was perfectly fine with friends ignoring it - I just wanted to make sure they had the chance to listen and decide for themselves. The returns have been legendary, so for me it was right to tell people the investment idea ahead of time.
I've found that saying "I saved enough to equal a modest pension" tends to cover it quite well for anyone who doesn't really understand personal finance.
The "modest pension" line gives me another idea: you could tell people your withdrawal rate rather than your savings. If you tell someone you have saved up a million dollars, you might get:
"You have a million dollars? Wow, that's a lot!"
But if you say you saved up enough to live on $40,000/year (4% of $1M):
"You live on just $40,000 a year? Wow, you're struggling."
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But if you say you saved up enough to live on $40,000/year (4% of $1M):
"You live on just $40,000 a year? Wow, you're struggling."
This is what I told my mates who spend money like it's going out of fashion. I don't live that way. I'm cheap. I'm poor. I don't want to spend money like they do.
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But if you say you saved up enough to live on $40,000/year (4% of $1M):
"You live on just $40,000 a year? Wow, you're struggling."
This is what I told my mates who spend money like it's going out of fashion. I don't live that way. I'm cheap. I'm poor. I don't want to spend money like they do.
I recently had this conversation with a BIL that outside of our mortgage (we live in a HCOL), we can easily live below $40k/year. In fact, we can quite comfortably live below $30k/year like we did last year during Covid lockdown. He and his wife were shocked and could not believe that was our lifestyle. Then again, they're both drowning in credit card debt and have two car payments and barely getting by on a six-figure income.
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IMHO, finances should be shared with family and anyone that may be affected by your decision to retire (spouse/children/parents) and no one else. I've been semi retired off and on "between jobs" in every decade of my life and usually just say "I'm between positions" or "looking for something new" and occasionally people share something interesting. I don't know if there is much difference in other's perception between someone who earned their money and lived frugally to retire early and someone who was just handed wealth at birth as both no longer have to work and may result in the same level of envy among the general population.
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IMHO, finances should be shared with family and anyone that may be affected by your decision to retire (spouse/children/parents) and no one else. I've been semi retired off and on "between jobs" in every decade of my life and usually just say "I'm between positions" or "looking for something new" and occasionally people share something interesting. I don't know if there is much difference in other's perception between someone who earned their money and lived frugally to retire early and someone who was just handed wealth at birth as both no longer have to work and may result in the same level of envy among the general population.
This isn't my personal experience at all. Are you saying this rule for yourself, or do you genuinely believe that all people should follow it as a general rule?
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If we don't need to stay home because of corona restrictions, next week we will visit our family abroad for the first time in 2 years. That will also be 2 years since we quit working and were taking a sabbatical. I would like to be sort of honest when my mother, brother and SIL ask me if I am back to work now.
We have already told an enquiring friend that we are in no hurry to get back to work and that we are financially okay with that. His conclusion was that as we aren't coffee drinkers, that we must have saved a lot of money by not buying coffee.
We also told some other friends the truth. They just asked if it was FIRE, which we confirmed. Then they told us they would be in the same situation in a few years.
We also told FIL the truth 2 years ago. He ended up bragging about it to others. That was not my intension.
I think we will tell my relatives that we saved enough for a modest pension, and can go back to work some simple job or doing consultancy work if necessary. I am a bit sceptic of what my mother might say. She can sometimes be very accusing of decisions she doesn't agree of. But she did agree full heartedly with our decision to take a year of and that having a life/time is more important than earning money.
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FIRE can alienate us from the rest of the population. Early retirement can mean becoming disconnected from our peer group. I would not tell others.
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FIRE can alienate us from the rest of the population. Early retirement can mean becoming disconnected from our peer group. I would not tell others.
Strongly disagree. My peer group is all on a FI/RE path b/c i talk about it. Just yesterday bc we started talking numbers a new friend realized they probably are FI now just need to put together a plan.
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FIRE can alienate us from the rest of the population. Early retirement can mean becoming disconnected from our peer group. I would not tell others.
If early retirement is important to you, then only having conditional friends that you tell about the other parts of yourself will itself alienate you from them. You don't automatically owe it to your friends to tell them about your long term health conditions or hard things from your past, but the friendships where you share those things get deeper and the friendships where you don't stay shallow. It's ok to keep shallow friendships shallow, but it's also okay to put more of yourself into your most important friendships to get more out of them.
My peer group is all on a FI/RE path b/c i talk about it.
So much this. I have like seven or eight FIRE convert friends - enough to take over a Camp Mustache - because I just opened myself up a little bit and said "here's what I'm doing and it works for me and you might consider it for yourself". That's a massive pile of middle class garbage that the world will never produce and 25 decades of more fulfilling human life from a couple pleasant conversations with people I already got along with anyway!
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Limiting oneself to those who have achieved FIRE often means hanging out with 70-year-olds. I have some younger friends as well, however it is not common to have a large group who are young and free.
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Limiting oneself to those who have achieved FIRE often means hanging out with 70-year-olds. I have some younger friends as well, however it is not common to have a large group who are young and free.
yeah you will fulfill your own prophecy by not talking about it. to each their own but most people are actually pretty excited to learn about this in my peer group. By not talking about it you will never know if some of your friends might be interested in better money management.
And I don't think anyone said limiting friends to those who are FIREd i'll beat most of my friends by 5-10 years but we still hang out.
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Limiting oneself to those who have achieved FIRE often means hanging out with 70-year-olds. I have some younger friends as well, however it is not common to have a large group who are young and free.
None of my friends are aiming for FIRE and it hasn't been a problem for me socially at all.
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I am also involved with some investing clubs. However, in a small town, the offerings are slim.
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Limiting oneself to those who have achieved FIRE often means hanging out with 70-year-olds. I have some younger friends as well, however it is not common to have a large group who are young and free.
yeah you will fulfill your own prophecy by not talking about it. to each their own but most people are actually pretty excited to learn about this in my peer group. By not talking about it you will never know if some of your friends might be interested in better money management.
And I don't think anyone said limiting friends to those who are FIREd i'll beat most of my friends by 5-10 years but we still hang out.
I'm very open with my peer group about my plans and a little pushy with young PAs that work with me.
I figure why not open the young PA's eyes to something they may not have been exposed to. Most people think I'm crazy, meh no harm no foul. Some have opened up and ask questions, some have even started to invest some of their savings. I consider even those small moves a big win for them.
Conversely, I don't talk money with my family. They think I'm broker than they all are, so no one comes to me for money, and I love it that way.
So yes I'm a total hypocrite. :-)
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Limiting oneself to those who have achieved FIRE often means hanging out with 70-year-olds. I have some younger friends as well, however it is not common to have a large group who are young and free.
yeah you will fulfill your own prophecy by not talking about it. to each their own but most people are actually pretty excited to learn about this in my peer group. By not talking about it you will never know if some of your friends might be interested in better money management.
And I don't think anyone said limiting friends to those who are FIREd i'll beat most of my friends by 5-10 years but we still hang out.
I'm very open with my peer group about my plans and a little pushy with young PAs that work with me.
I figure why not open the young PA's eyes to something they may not have been exposed to. Most people think I'm crazy, meh no harm no foul. Some have opened up and ask questions, some have even started to invest some of their savings. I consider even those small moves a big win for them.
Conversely, I don't talk money with my family. They think I'm broker than they all are, so no one comes to me for money, and I love it that way.
So yes I'm a total hypocrite. :-)
pretty sure i already told this story in this thread a while ago but i was in a wedding and we were all at the rehearsal and all the groomsmen were gathered back stage and i just said i'm going to retire at 37 - and one guy laughed his ass off and joked about it - at the dinner later that evening to other groomsmen came up to me and said tell me more about how this all works. it was great. clearly this was a long time ago as now i'm quitting at 35.
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IMHO, finances should be shared with family and anyone that may be affected by your decision to retire (spouse/children/parents) and no one else. I've been semi retired off and on "between jobs" in every decade of my life and usually just say "I'm between positions" or "looking for something new" and occasionally people share something interesting. I don't know if there is much difference in other's perception between someone who earned their money and lived frugally to retire early and someone who was just handed wealth at birth as both no longer have to work and may result in the same level of envy among the general population.
This isn't my personal experience at all. Are you saying this rule for yourself, or do you genuinely believe that all people should follow it as a general rule?
Personal choice.
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Ah, because "IMHO, finances should be shared with family and anyone that may be affected by your decision to retire" sounded to me like an imperative statement.
I'm finding lately that a lot of people here are sharing personal opinions, but stated in imperative form.
I'm very curious about why this is.
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Yesterday I told my mother that we have retired early, after she asked whether we had managed to find new jobs after our sabbatical. She took it okay, although she thought were were pretty young to retire. We didn't get a bunch of questions and I explained about living frugally, what she also does to a certain degree.
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Merry Christmas.
Waiting for dinner to be prepared and therefore a few minutes online.
Today I told my SIL and brother that we were early retired. I got the direct question if I was back to work and I didn't want to tell a lie. They seemed to think that was a good plan for us. SIL said later that she had never considered this and thought that life was about working, earning money and spending it. So maybe I opened her eyes. Of course she and my brother have most of the time worked parttime, so I reminded them of that they are already prioritizing life over work in their current situation.
I am happy that the cat is out of the bag now. It feels natural to speak the trough. Both SIL and my brother are a few years younger than I am. I hope they won't resent us when they have a bad working day later.
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It's interesting being around family. And I've been very open about my plans for the last few years. And everyone is intrigued candy asking if in still going to quit and then some ask what I'm going to do with my time. I probably talk about it too much but the ones who actually understand are like you're making the right decision. Not that the justification from them is necessary. But I've been prepping them for years. So again talking about it is a good thing. This isn't something that should be hidden. Money and being taboo is what commercialization thrives on. And you know we all profit from to a degree. If some is happy to tell you about their new lifted f450 you should be happy to talk about your newly minted shares of your chosen asset allocation.
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DH is planning to downsize, rather than quit. However, one of my nephew's asked if we would be OK long term and I told him about FIRE. He just quit his job and moved into his car, so I pointed him to ERE, rather than here. His sister was already familiar with the basic tenets.
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It's interesting being around family. And I've been very open about my plans for the last few years. And everyone is intrigued candy asking if in still going to quit and then some ask what I'm going to do with my time. I probably talk about it too much but the ones who actually understand are like you're making the right decision. Not that the justification from them is necessary. But I've been prepping them for years. So again talking about it is a good thing. This isn't something that should be hidden. Money and being taboo is what commercialization thrives on. And you know we all profit from to a degree. If some is happy to tell you about their new lifted f450 you should be happy to talk about your newly minted shares of your chosen asset allocation.
I think this can depend on what your family is like. We have family members who are already vaguely critical that we aren't spending more money on family, including family gifts, travel, and general economic assistance (for others in the family, ie "can you split the cost on this gift for so and so"). It would likely not go over well if we shared our good financial position with them at the "expense" of not helping out more. They are all pretty frugal and have had some expensive life experiences or living on small social security payments. There would at least be an increased expectation and I just don't want to deal with it.
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So much this. I have like seven or eight FIRE convert friends - enough to take over a Camp Mustache - because I just opened myself up a little bit and said "here's what I'm doing and it works for me and you might consider it for yourself". That's a massive pile of middle class garbage that the world will never produce and 25 decades of more fulfilling human life from a couple pleasant conversations with people I already got along with anyway!
I dream of this, how glorious. Was your friend group mostly challenge-oriented before? I seem to only convert fat-FIREes from quite high incomes & middle-class baby-steppers, myself, so the ecological impact is much smaller. I can't really talk lifestyle with either group since theirs are much-inflated compared to mine & they always seem to be hunting for ways to consume more. My close friends have such different perspectives on money - aversive - that I've come to accept they aren't really receptive to discussion of it or anything around it; we share the passions I want to retire to, but I know I'm going to be orienting my schedule around their free hours in the future. My SO is about the only person I can talk frankly with on the subject in real life but his goal is several years off.
It seems like the difficulty is in finding people with a combination of an interest in challenge, lack of interest in status, & ability to perceive money as a tool for things beyond status-seeking.
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At this time of year, with families getting together, this is such an interesting question. I wasn't planning on saying much but it turns out my mom announced to all that I had quit my job. The concept of early retirement hasn't come up much and I was asked what my next plan was and how I would make money at it. I sidestepped all of that by getting enthusiastic about some technical aspects of my passion project.
Ironically the conversation went to the typical complaints about billionaires. I see how wedded even these liberal, environmentally conscious, professional families are to their expenses. One in-law said they spend $400 a month on their car, which is unthinkable to me even though I live in a VHCOL area and they live in the opposite. When I suggested you don't have to buy things to have an experience with them, that also got a "wow, that's really thinking outside the box" comment. Many negative emotions around money rather than seeing it as a tool.
There may be an underlying awareness of our net worth because of our house, we're known to be frugal bike riders and I had a high-paying job. But they're so trapped in a mentality of spend now, work forever, then collect SS/pension. They're also known to comment about maybe getting an inheritance -- yikes! That really makes me uncomfortable & I insist to my kids that we don't sit around hoping for elder family to die off. I think if they were to know that I was planning on living off $1 million in savings they would view that jealously rather than as an example they could follow.
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I retired at 54, should have retired at 52, but worried about ACA being repealed.
Handed letter of resignation to supervisor. He said where you going (for new job). I said read the letter (which said I was retiring). Made sure they listed my reason for leaving as retirement as year-end 401K match is forfeit for leaving unless you retire. Had to point this out to HR (after year-end) to force them to give me the match, but that is another story. Local work group gave me a little party during office hours, group lunch, gifts including several bottles of rum and several t-shirts, one that said "officially retired". I sprung for an open bar for the group after work.
Wore the "officially retired" t-shirt under a button shirt at a family dinner I cooked/hosted. After dinner I said I have an announcement and unbuttoned my shirt. Mom couldn't believe me, but everyone congratulated me.
One slow afternoon at a local bar, two older guys came in and we got to talking. They asked what do you? I said retired. They asked how old? I said 54. They said F..k you. I smiled and said thank you. That was the best.
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I dream of this, how glorious. Was your friend group mostly challenge-oriented before? I seem to only convert fat-FIREes from quite high incomes & middle-class baby-steppers, myself, so the ecological impact is much smaller...It seems like the difficulty is in finding people with a combination of an interest in challenge, lack of interest in status, & ability to perceive money as a tool for things beyond status-seeking.
I was very lucky to find MMM in college when I was living off $9k/year and before my friend group had graduated up to larger lifestyles expensive enough to be defensive about...
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I dream of this, how glorious. Was your friend group mostly challenge-oriented before? I seem to only convert fat-FIREes from quite high incomes & middle-class baby-steppers, myself, so the ecological impact is much smaller...It seems like the difficulty is in finding people with a combination of an interest in challenge, lack of interest in status, & ability to perceive money as a tool for things beyond status-seeking.
I was very lucky to find MMM in college when I was living off $9k/year and before my friend group had graduated up to larger lifestyles expensive enough to be defensive about...
Ah, I envy you. I was only a couple years out of school myself, already very very frugal between my own nature & the Great Recession so when I got here (through ERE) it was a haven of the like-minded; my friends usually also had no money, were struggling, but their reaction was always to spend any they could get on comforts before the choice was taken away from them by necessities. Saving was a bafflingly alien idea, a pointless nonsensical hassle, like I'd suggested they relocate their wardrobe to a collection of flowerpots. As jobs accelerated - many of theirs way ahead of mine - that didn't really change for them, outflows always meeting inflows plus some easy debt, until a few of the comfortably upper-middle class ones looked around & realized they had essentially no savings, so "maybe" they should consider putting away 5-10%. A couple others were pulling it in hand over fist & understood the math, but they notionally-plan to spend it like water too. I try not to get down about it but it's rough to witness preventable anxiety/ suffering in people I care about.
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While searching for something else, I found an old thread that discusses this topic.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-people-look-at-you-different-after-admitting-your-early-retirement-ambitions/
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There’s always going to be people that are jealous of what you accomplished but have excuses for why they can’t do the same.
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I retired from the Navy at 49 and moved to a LCOL area where military retirees are rare. Consequently, I just tell folks I retired from the Navy and they assume (incorrectly) that most people who retire from the military stay retired.
I do get the occasional question about what I do and when I tell them I'm retired 99% of the time the response is "Good for you!".
I'm considering a very part time position as an contractor for the Naval War College, so I guess now I can say I'm a contractor instead of being retired.
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While searching for something else, I found an old thread that discusses this topic.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-people-look-at-you-different-after-admitting-your-early-retirement-ambitions/
Thank you for posting the link.
This was an good read.
SwaneeSR
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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While searching for this topuc I found:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/business-card-ideas/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/'so-what-do-you-do'/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/when-non-mustaches-ask-you-what-do-you-do/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/post-fire-how-do-you-answer-the-question-'what-do-you-do-for-a-living'/
Edit: and I didn't repeat anything from my prior posts. :-)
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It's interesting being around family. And I've been very open about my plans for the last few years. And everyone is intrigued candy asking if in still going to quit and then some ask what I'm going to do with my time. I probably talk about it too much but the ones who actually understand are like you're making the right decision. Not that the justification from them is necessary. But I've been prepping them for years. So again talking about it is a good thing. This isn't something that should be hidden. Money and being taboo is what commercialization thrives on. And you know we all profit from to a degree. If some is happy to tell you about their new lifted f450 you should be happy to talk about your newly minted shares of your chosen asset allocation.
I think this can depend on what your family is like. We have family members who are already vaguely critical that we aren't spending more money on family, including family gifts, travel, and general economic assistance (for others in the family, ie "can you split the cost on this gift for so and so"). It would likely not go over well if we shared our good financial position with them at the "expense" of not helping out more. They are all pretty frugal and have had some expensive life experiences or living on small social security payments. There would at least be an increased expectation and I just don't want to deal with it.
I'm curious. Has anyone else experienced this? I wouldn't anticipate "you just win the lottery" levels of requests, but has anyone experienced a smaller uptick in requests for help either directly or just unstated but obvious expectations?
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I recently gave my notice at the office. I had read so many posts about the concern over telling people you're going to be retiring that I was concerned how it would go over.
I'm here to say that being straight about it was the best thing I could have done, especially for the people who work for me. They were all congratulatory and I haven't yet received and awkward questions. The only questions I've really gotten is "so what will you do?" Beyond that, it's been really much ado about nothing, I'm happy to report.
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I recently gave my notice at the office. I had read so many posts about the concern over telling people you're going to be retiring that I was concerned how it would go over.
I'm here to say that being straight about it was the best thing I could have done, especially for the people who work for me. They were all congratulatory and I haven't yet received and awkward questions. The only questions I've really gotten is "so what will you do?" Beyond that, it's been really much ado about nothing, I'm happy to report.
my experience has been the same. With the addition of people setting up meetings to learn how I did this.
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Yeah, I don't tell them about FIRE. Sometimes people will ask. If you can detect an honest interest in learning about your situation then I would tell them. Most of the time it is so they can confirm a prejudice they may have. It changes the world's opinion of you to disclose FIRE. Most of the time it is not for the better.
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It's interesting being around family. And I've been very open about my plans for the last few years. And everyone is intrigued candy asking if in still going to quit and then some ask what I'm going to do with my time. I probably talk about it too much but the ones who actually understand are like you're making the right decision. Not that the justification from them is necessary. But I've been prepping them for years. So again talking about it is a good thing. This isn't something that should be hidden. Money and being taboo is what commercialization thrives on. And you know we all profit from to a degree. If some is happy to tell you about their new lifted f450 you should be happy to talk about your newly minted shares of your chosen asset allocation.
I think this can depend on what your family is like. We have family members who are already vaguely critical that we aren't spending more money on family, including family gifts, travel, and general economic assistance (for others in the family, ie "can you split the cost on this gift for so and so"). It would likely not go over well if we shared our good financial position with them at the "expense" of not helping out more. They are all pretty frugal and have had some expensive life experiences or living on small social security payments. There would at least be an increased expectation and I just don't want to deal with it.
I'm curious. Has anyone else experienced this? I wouldn't anticipate "you just win the lottery" levels of requests, but has anyone experienced a smaller uptick in requests for help either directly or just unstated but obvious expectations?
Only by one person - my Dads second wife AKA The Wicked Step Mother - and she only said I needed to "help him out" (financially) without specifics. I was somewhat estranged from my Dad (he was a dick of the worse kind) and he and his wife both had pensions and SS that was about 4 times higher then my passive FIRE income but spent it all on "toys" like cars, motorcycles, RVs, etc. She felt I should go back to work to help support them since I was too young to retire or take long multi year sabbaticals.
I always respond to these types of requests or insinuations that I'll help you build a great life just open your books and I'll see if you really need more.
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It's interesting being around family. And I've been very open about my plans for the last few years. And everyone is intrigued candy asking if in still going to quit and then some ask what I'm going to do with my time. I probably talk about it too much but the ones who actually understand are like you're making the right decision. Not that the justification from them is necessary. But I've been prepping them for years. So again talking about it is a good thing. This isn't something that should be hidden. Money and being taboo is what commercialization thrives on. And you know we all profit from to a degree. If some is happy to tell you about their new lifted f450 you should be happy to talk about your newly minted shares of your chosen asset allocation.
I think this can depend on what your family is like. We have family members who are already vaguely critical that we aren't spending more money on family, including family gifts, travel, and general economic assistance (for others in the family, ie "can you split the cost on this gift for so and so"). It would likely not go over well if we shared our good financial position with them at the "expense" of not helping out more. They are all pretty frugal and have had some expensive life experiences or living on small social security payments. There would at least be an increased expectation and I just don't want to deal with it.
I'm curious. Has anyone else experienced this? I wouldn't anticipate "you just win the lottery" levels of requests, but has anyone experienced a smaller uptick in requests for help either directly or just unstated but obvious expectations?
Only by one person - my Dads second wife AKA The Wicked Step Mother - and she only said I needed to "help him out" (financially) without specifics. I was somewhat estranged from my Dad (he was a dick of the worse kind) and he and his wife both had pensions and SS that was about 4 times higher then my passive FIRE income but spent it all on "toys" like cars, motorcycles, RVs, etc. She felt I should go back to work to help support them since I was too young to retire or take long multi year sabbaticals.
That's rough both on the money request and the overall background. I am sorry that happened. Thanks for responding. I'd hope it was the exception rather than the rule that people act crummy, hit you up for money, and so on. It sounds from people's experiences on here that I've gleaned in passing that it is an exception. We're not FIRE, but we keep things close to the vest. It's something I do think about, although I'll be probably in my mid 40's before everything would come together for me, which is at least somewhat close to retirement age.
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It's interesting being around family. And I've been very open about my plans for the last few years. And everyone is intrigued candy asking if in still going to quit and then some ask what I'm going to do with my time. I probably talk about it too much but the ones who actually understand are like you're making the right decision. Not that the justification from them is necessary. But I've been prepping them for years. So again talking about it is a good thing. This isn't something that should be hidden. Money and being taboo is what commercialization thrives on. And you know we all profit from to a degree. If some is happy to tell you about their new lifted f450 you should be happy to talk about your newly minted shares of your chosen asset allocation.
I think this can depend on what your family is like. We have family members who are already vaguely critical that we aren't spending more money on family, including family gifts, travel, and general economic assistance (for others in the family, ie "can you split the cost on this gift for so and so"). It would likely not go over well if we shared our good financial position with them at the "expense" of not helping out more. They are all pretty frugal and have had some expensive life experiences or living on small social security payments. There would at least be an increased expectation and I just don't want to deal with it.
I'm curious. Has anyone else experienced this? I wouldn't anticipate "you just win the lottery" levels of requests, but has anyone experienced a smaller uptick in requests for help either directly or just unstated but obvious expectations?
Only by one person - my Dads second wife AKA The Wicked Step Mother - and she only said I needed to "help him out" (financially) without specifics. I was somewhat estranged from my Dad (he was a dick of the worse kind) and he and his wife both had pensions and SS that was about 4 times higher then my passive FIRE income but spent it all on "toys" like cars, motorcycles, RVs, etc. She felt I should go back to work to help support them since I was too young to retire or take long multi year sabbaticals.
Oh, dear. What's happened to them without your "help"? How ever have they managed to survive, the poor souls? /s
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Other then that I've only been asked to physically help out by other people because "you're not working" and thus free and available to do all kinds of crap I didn't want to do. While I found it easy to say "no" to any financial request by playing the poor starving waif bit, I had a hard time saying no when asked to help do stuff. So I did lie and say I was still working oncall (which I had done for awhile) and wasn't often available to help out with things.
First I could help with anything because I didn't have kids, now I can take responsibility for anything because I'm not working. Sorry folks, there are reasons for both of those things and you don't get to run my life just because it looks different than yours... Our roommate really resented it and would spit out "it isn't like you work" anytime we asked her to take responsibility for anything (which wasn't often, but wow, basic repairs need to happen honey, and your stuff is in the way).
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This is exactly the issue. We already have family members making demands on our time that aren't even possible. My spouse is expected/asked to do work for other family members during the time that our young children are not in school (summer and breaks). Obviously my spouse (a teacher) is caring for them, but no one in the family ever recognizes this. It's so weird. Simultaneously we've been asked to contribute to other family members's financial needs. Even before we could actually afford to do so. Technically we still can't afford to do so because we are funding our retirement and childrens' college funds.
That is the very important reason why we don't tell people.