The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: FrancisinPa on May 21, 2015, 11:10:26 AM
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Hi,
Been reading lots of posts here, this is my first one. I'll be 56 in August and believe financially I could retire anytime. Yet I don't. I hang onto a job (been with the same company for over 30 years) that has deteriorated so much the past 5 years it's a living hell . I do earn in the low 100's so that's the only plus. But the job has become unbearable. Things like giving new hires preferred working hours and changing veteran workers hours to undesirable ones. I've earned 5 weeks of yearly vacation time but I can't use it when I want. I should say when I request time off they repeatedly say, sorry but that's not a good time. Problem is there doesn't seem to be any good time for me take vacation time. I've will miss out on a summer trip to Cape Cod with friends, a Florida trip and a golf trip because of not granting my vacation requests. So why do I still work there? OMY syndrome for sure. Buy in my case it leads to two more years, then three, you see where I'm going here. How do I break out of this?
Financial info - I think I'm pretty good here. Income streams:
1. Probably have 80x yearly expenses saved. Invested 30/70 stock mutual funds/bonds. Bond percentage includes 25% in CD's, I Bonds and some land in a nice warm climate.
2. Beginning when I'm 65 I'll receive a $26,500 pension from previous employer.
3. Plan to defer SS til 70. Should be 30k give or take.
So does it look like I can ER financially? Why can't I pull the trigger on leaving work? I really, really despise working where I am yet I can do it if I had to. I've presented the my situation to several people I know and I was surprised how many of them said to keep working. When I asked why, they basically said I could always have more security as in more savings. Then I guess that's an argument to work forever. Any opinions appreciated. Thanks.
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1. Probably have 80x yearly expenses saved
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Quit now. If all the numbers you have listed are really accurate you have enough to FIRE several times over.
I know people who have done something for so long, that it has become a part of them. You've worked for the same company for over 30 years. It probably feels like part of your identity at this point. Fear of change can be paralyzing for some, even in the face of an miserable situation. I don't know if that applies to you or not. It sure sounds like you're going to miss out on some really fun trips. You really do have more than enough to FIRE. Personally, I'd give my two week notice and enjoy those trips. Each day only happens once.
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You have saved literally several times as much as you need to. Clearly you don't need to be there. Why do you think you haven't quit? Is it just the financial concern, or something else?
If it's just the financial concern, you can quit today. Right after reading this sentence.
Maybe you want to stay for a bit for other reasons (like finishing up something you care about). But you don't need to come in tomorrow otherwise.
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1. Probably have 80x yearly expenses saved
This.
Great Garbonzo Beans Batman! 80x would give you a 1.25% withdrawal rate. Not only can you retire, you can eat out every day, buy a new car every 3 years, and spend a month a year in Europe/wherever. About 25x expenses is generally considered "FU money".
Bare minimum, quit *that* job and do something else. You will not suffer the tiniest if you have to take a 30% paycut. Just get out of the toxic environment. Maybe get a gig serving burgers at the little 18th hole restaurant at your favorite golf club. Fun. You are on the course. Prolly tee time benefits. You shouldn't give a rip about the money.
You could also take half a million and open just about any franchise known to man. Are you a dirty old man? Maybe Hooters/Twin Peaks or some other "breastaurant." You mentioned Golf. Maybe a Golfsmith franchise if they do business that way.
You. Have. Options.
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Its probably fear.. if its anything like me it is. I have 75X of projected spend (assuming I keep our rentals), plus a $15k pension next year and a similar one for my Wife in 8 years time... Yeah its a bit overkill..:)
I quit but I can't resist some p.t work that's profitable that filled the coffers a bit more.
Its a valid concern, I mean if your 80 and run out of money your likely not going to be able to walk into a 6 figure job, so why not stuff the mattress a bit more now?
The problem of course is that when is enough enough? In your head I'm sure you have calculated over and over and realize that logically you CAN retire.. believing it in your heart is another matter though.
I think if the numbers are really showing you have 80X spending saved (plus a pension in 9 years time).. Well then you need to say F it.. and just dive off the high board and see what happens.
You'll do just fine.
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I've presented the my situation to several people I know and I was surprised how many of them said to keep working.
How many of these people are already retired? Or inclined to think that there is even the possibility of retirement before 60? My gut says zero.
You know in your heart that this is an emotional issue, not a financial one. If you need to, find a therapist that has experience with people shifting into retirement. Or just sit down and envision what your post-job life will be like. If its not a clear picture, figure out the details until it is.
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Remember, you are simply a mammal. You have an organic brain that has evolved over millions of years under certain conditions to be a creature of habit. Most, if not all, of our decisions are made primarily by habit and gut instinct. We are very bad at weighing short term pros and cons against deferred pros and cons. Additionally, as we age, we get more and more risk averse. FORCE yourself to use your logic, and statistics, not your feelings. Quit your job today!
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Your best options:
1) Quit now
2) Start throwing your weight around. You are in a position of strength. You have the leverage to quit at any moment. Make the workplace what you want it to be and if they fire you so be it. Make it clear that your vacation schedule is non- negotiable.
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Your best options:
1) Quit now
2) Start throwing your weight around. You are in a position of strength. You have the leverage to quit at any moment. Make the workplace what you want it to be and if they fire you so be it. Make it clear that your vacation schedule is non- negotiable.
I did #2 and got fired.. they gave me money ( quite a lot of it) to leave.. gosh darn that was hard .. NOT!...:)
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You are a prolific saver. Go on your vacation and never go back to work. Make sure you make all of those cancelled vacation trips this year.
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OP: you are institutionalised.
It's time for you to break out of prison.
And send us a postcard from your place in the sun.
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Get out now. You have a finite number of days left to live, and they should NOT be spent in an awful work environment and making yourself miserable. At this point, it may take you months to years to detox from the stress and oppression you've accepted as normal... give yourself permission to leave now.
Spend the next month or so figuring out details your yearly spending (if you haven't already), insurance coverage (ACA allows you to get coverage any time you lose your insurance - including quitting a job), what your job will owe you in untaken vacation time (oh, my yes) and optimizing your cash and investment flows and get it all planned out. And then turn in your notice.
Having a plan lessens the fear of leaving. You deserve to get out of that place and should not devote one more day to just putting up with it. Start plotting your exit strategy and make this summer your first of many as a free man.
And I know about being institutionalized in a soul-sucking job; just quit mine this past March. In the beginning I was pretty sure I was making a horrible mistake, but I made copious plans, researched everything I could, and am just now starting to feel free... and happier than I've felt in YEARS. And we're going to be fine.
It will work out - you just have to take the plunge.
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OP: you are institutionalised.
It's time for you to break out of prison.
And send us a postcard from your place in the sun.
I thought of The Shawshank Redemption too!
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Quitting is scary, especially after having a nice income for so long.
Please quit your job and go on your summer trip to Cape Cod. If retiring is too difficult/scary, plan to get another job after your summer trip. Maybe you'll decide not to after tasting a few months of freedom. And if you still decide to get another job later, you can choose one that you love, even if it's low paying, since the income isn't important.
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Why can't I pull the trigger on leaving work? ... I've presented the my situation to several people I know and I was surprised how many of them said to keep working.
Here are some common reasons people stay at their job:
Social pressure; worry about impact on relationships with family and friends
Identity tied up with career
Worry about finances
Don't know what you would do with your time
Don't know who you would socialize with during the day
Change is scary
I suggest taking some baby steps, like finding and talking to an early retiree face to face about your concerns, hiring a fee-only financial planner to go over your situation, taking a staycation, and brainstorming a giant list of ideas for how you could spend your time once freed from your employer (like volunteering, part-time job, different job, leisure activities).
These actions are completely manageable and would help you understand and maybe get over your reluctance to quit.
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OP: Your financial position gives you a position of power from which to negotiate with your employer. If something is holding you back from quitting outright at this point, you still have the leverage to make some demands because you have that option in your back pocket. You've not been the squeaky wheel...you ask for time off, they say no, you accept it. Time to be the squeaky wheel and let them know that if you don't get that vacation time, or better hours, or more flexibility, or...whatever...you are ready and prepared to walk. It's amazing what an employer will do when they realize you are willing to walk away.
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OP: you are institutionalised.
It's time for you to break out of prison.
And send us a postcard from your place in the sun.
I thought of The Shawshank Redemption too!
"Get busy living, or get busy dying"
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Quit now. If all the numbers you have listed are really accurate you have enough to FIRE several times over.
I know people who have done something for so long, that it has become a part of them. You've worked for the same company for over 30 years. It probably feels like part of your identity at this point. Fear of change can be paralyzing for some, even in the face of an miserable situation. I don't know if that applies to you or not. It sure sounds like you're going to miss out on some really fun trips. You really do have more than enough to FIRE. Personally, I'd give my two week notice and enjoy those trips. Each day only happens once.
Yes, the numbers are accurate. A big help is I can live fine on 30-32k a year or even less. As far as my job being my identity, I don't know. I would never apply for my job as a new employee. I work in a hospital and six years ago it was taken over by a for profit hospital chain. Things slowly changed at first but the last few years they picked up the pace of the negative changes to today's horrendous conditions. I think their goal is to get the long time workers to leave and hire new, cheaper workers.
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Quit now. If all the numbers you have listed are really accurate you have enough to FIRE several times over.
I know people who have done something for so long, that it has become a part of them. You've worked for the same company for over 30 years. It probably feels like part of your identity at this point. Fear of change can be paralyzing for some, even in the face of an miserable situation. I don't know if that applies to you or not. It sure sounds like you're going to miss out on some really fun trips. You really do have more than enough to FIRE. Personally, I'd give my two week notice and enjoy those trips. Each day only happens once.
Yes, the numbers are accurate. A big help is I can live fine on 30-32k a year or even less. As far as my job being my identity, I don't know. I would never apply for my job as a new employee. I work in a hospital and six years ago it was taken over by a for profit hospital chain. Things slowly changed at first but the last few years they picked up the pace of the negative changes to today's horrendous conditions. I think their goal is to get the long time workers to leave and hire new, cheaper workers.
It sounds like you should help them meet their goal. You can get another job, or volunteer, if you still want something structured to do. But do yourself a favor and GTFO. Non-profit organizations are always looking for people with medical-related skills (if that's what you do at the hospital).
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1. Probably have 80x yearly expenses saved
This.
Great Garbonzo Beans Batman! 80x would give you a 1.25% withdrawal rate. Not only can you retire, you can eat out every day, buy a new car every 3 years, and spend a month a year in Europe/wherever. About 25x expenses is generally considered "FU money".
Bare minimum, quit *that* job and do something else. You will not suffer the tiniest if you have to take a 30% paycut. Just get out of the toxic environment. Maybe get a gig serving burgers at the little 18th hole restaurant at your favorite golf club. Fun. You are on the course. Prolly tee time benefits. You shouldn't give a rip about the money.
You could also take half a million and open just about any franchise known to man. Are you a dirty old man? Maybe Hooters/Twin Peaks or some other "breastaurant." You mentioned Golf. Maybe a Golfsmith franchise if they do business that way.
You. Have. Options.
Good tips thanks. As far as having whatever X yearly expenses saved, is that really accurate? That number doesn't seem to account for inflation. Example, a 30k per year withdrawal rate today will need to be much, much higher in 30 years for the same buying power.
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Its probably fear.. if its anything like me it is. I have 75X of projected spend (assuming I keep our rentals), plus a $15k pension next year and a similar one for my Wife in 8 years time... Yeah its a bit overkill..:)
I quit but I can't resist some p.t work that's profitable that filled the coffers a bit more.
Its a valid concern, I mean if your 80 and run out of money your likely not going to be able to walk into a 6 figure job, so why not stuff the mattress a bit more now?
The problem of course is that when is enough enough? In your head I'm sure you have calculated over and over and realize that logically you CAN retire.. believing it in your heart is another matter though.
I think if the numbers are really showing you have 80X spending saved (plus a pension in 9 years time).. Well then you need to say F it.. and just dive off the high board and see what happens.
You'll do just fine.
You're hit the nail on the head - "when is enough enough". I know logically I can do it. Just like you said tho, why not stuff the mattress a little more? Then I think a little more, little more and get stuck in a never ending "more".
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I've presented the my situation to several people I know and I was surprised how many of them said to keep working.
How many of these people are already retired? Or inclined to think that there is even the possibility of retirement before 60? My gut says zero.
You know in your heart that this is an emotional issue, not a financial one. If you need to, find a therapist that has experience with people shifting into retirement. Or just sit down and envision what your post-job life will be like. If its not a clear picture, figure out the details until it is.
I was actually thinking of the therapist angle. Maybe it's worth a shot.
The people that suggested I keep working were all retired over 62 and retired. Some are retired 25+ years. Many of them came from different life events than me. Some were youngsters during the Great Depression and lived thru how uncertain the world was and how hard money was to obtain. They have the save for a rainy day mentality and fear for the worst circumstances to occur. Better to oversave than run out of money is how they think.
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Your best options:
1) Quit now
2) Start throwing your weight around. You are in a position of strength. You have the leverage to quit at any moment. Make the workplace what you want it to be and if they fire you so be it. Make it clear that your vacation schedule is non- negotiable.
I did #2 and got fired.. they gave me money ( quite a lot of it) to leave.. gosh darn that was hard .. NOT!...:)
I don't need to know your specific details, but generally if an employee was fired why would the employer give you money to leave? The only way I could see this happening is with a discrimination claim.
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Get out now. You have a finite number of days left to live, and they should NOT be spent in an awful work environment and making yourself miserable. At this point, it may take you months to years to detox from the stress and oppression you've accepted as normal... give yourself permission to leave now.
Spend the next month or so figuring out details your yearly spending (if you haven't already), insurance coverage (ACA allows you to get coverage any time you lose your insurance - including quitting a job), what your job will owe you in untaken vacation time (oh, my yes) and optimizing your cash and investment flows and get it all planned out. And then turn in your notice.
Having a plan lessens the fear of leaving. You deserve to get out of that place and should not devote one more day to just putting up with it. Start plotting your exit strategy and make this summer your first of many as a free man.
And I know about being institutionalized in a soul-sucking job; just quit mine this past March. In the beginning I was pretty sure I was making a horrible mistake, but I made copious plans, researched everything I could, and am just now starting to feel free... and happier than I've felt in YEARS. And we're going to be fine.
It will work out - you just have to take the plunge.
Wow, thanks for your response. You described my situation to tee. I've felt the workplace was toxic and even has affected my health. By BP med dose has been doubled. And even a day or two off is not enough to recover both physically and mentally. I think it will take months or longer as you suggested. I hope the happiness comes back for me too.
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OP: Your financial position gives you a position of power from which to negotiate with your employer. If something is holding you back from quitting outright at this point, you still have the leverage to make some demands because you have that option in your back pocket. You've not been the squeaky wheel...you ask for time off, they say no, you accept it. Time to be the squeaky wheel and let them know that if you don't get that vacation time, or better hours, or more flexibility, or...whatever...you are ready and prepared to walk. It's amazing what an employer will do when they realize you are willing to walk away.
Good thoughts. But I sincerely think they won't care if I quit. In fact, I think it's their goal for all senior workers to quit. The reason - they could hire new, younger workers and save $$$$. That's all they care about $$$$.
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I don't need to know your specific details, but generally if an employee was fired why would the employer give you money to leave? The only way I could see this happening is with a discrimination claim.
I don't know if this is the case in his situation, but I've worked at several places where when they fired people, they would give them money in exchange for signing a form not to sue them for any reason.
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Good tips thanks. As far as having whatever X yearly expenses saved, is that really accurate? That number doesn't seem to account for inflation. Example, a 30k per year withdrawal rate today will need to be much, much higher in 30 years for the same buying power.
33x should last forever accounting for inflation, barring apocalypse. I'm planning on retiring with 25x and a willingness to be flexible if the market goes south. I have a 70/30 stock/bond split.
80x is the highest I've seen on this forum, even among the retirees. Maybe MMM has that by now from his blog income, but he retired at about 25x.
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Your best options:
1) Quit now
2) Start throwing your weight around. You are in a position of strength. You have the leverage to quit at any moment. Make the workplace what you want it to be and if they fire you so be it. Make it clear that your vacation schedule is non- negotiable.
Agreed. I'd say quit now because you have waaay more than you need and are already pretty dang close to normal retirement age; go and LIVE!
That said, if you can't get yourself to stop working, the simple solution to this is to get a different job. I know it's hard to do because you are 30 years emotionally invested into it but it will allow you the emotional comfort of working but also alleviate the pain of what sounds like an absolutely incompetent management.
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Your best options:
1) Quit now
2) Start throwing your weight around. You are in a position of strength. You have the leverage to quit at any moment. Make the workplace what you want it to be and if they fire you so be it. Make it clear that your vacation schedule is non- negotiable.
I did #2 and got fired.. they gave me money ( quite a lot of it) to leave.. gosh darn that was hard .. NOT!...:)
I don't need to know your specific details, but generally if an employee was fired why would the employer give you money to leave? The only way I could see this happening is with a discrimination claim.
Well this employer is reknowned for its poor treatment of employees.. I guess they feel they are at risk of getting sued so they pay off the people they fire (and they fire a LOT of great people). In exchange for a signature saying you won't sue them.
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Good tips thanks. As far as having whatever X yearly expenses saved, is that really accurate? That number doesn't seem to account for inflation. Example, a 30k per year withdrawal rate today will need to be much, much higher in 30 years for the same buying power.
It is generally considered accurate if you have at least 40% of your portfolio in equities, which will rise with inflation.
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Good tips thanks. As far as having whatever X yearly expenses saved, is that really accurate? That number doesn't seem to account for inflation. Example, a 30k per year withdrawal rate today will need to be much, much higher in 30 years for the same buying power.
33x should last forever accounting for inflation, barring apocalypse. I'm planning on retiring with 25x and a willingness to be flexible if the market goes south. I have a 70/30 stock/bond split.
80x is the highest I've seen on this forum, even among the retirees. Maybe MMM has that by now from his blog income, but he retired at about 25x.
Hehe.. If I take my pension next year and keep the rentals I will be at 300X.... oops..:)
Last years spend was $28k (call it 30).. add $5k for the ACA.. gives a projected spend of $35k... Minus rent ($15k), minus my pension ($15k) = $5k
$1.5M (liquid)/$5k = 300
That's not including the paid off house, or my Wife's pension (about $16k in 8 years time, SS or my UK state pension which is tiny).
now will we stick at 300X.. highly unlikely, I suspect we'll spend a lot on travel when the Wife quits work.
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if you insist on taking the vacations you want and they fire you, at least you'll get unemployment insurance. Not that you need the money, but my experience is that some employers don't like firing people because then they have to pay higher ui premiums. This may be why they're trying to make you miserable enough to just quit. Good luck, and have fun planning your escape, and the free time you've earned.
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If they want to get rid of older workers, why not take advantage of it? Tell them you would love to retire, but need a package. See what they come up with. That's what my husband did, and got a very nice deal.
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The effect this job seems to be having on your health is nothing to mess around with! I sincerely hope you get the hell out of there and get some sleep, do things you love, and find a way to put your skills to use in a way that lets you relax. Please come back and tell us the story so we can live vicariously!
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If they want to get rid of older workers, why not take advantage of it? Tell them you would love to retire, but need a package. See what they come up with. That's what my husband did, and got a very nice deal.
Good idea. When you say tell them, who is them? My direct boss, her boss, HR director, someone else? Or all of the above?
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I don't need to know your specific details, but generally if an employee was fired why would the employer give you money to leave? The only way I could see this happening is with a discrimination claim.
I don't know if this is the case in his situation, but I've worked at several places where when they fired people, they would give them money in exchange for signing a form not to sue them for any reason.
Former workers that I knew who quit or were fired were asked to sign that release not to sue. But I've never heard any receiving money to sign the form.
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I don't need to know your specific details, but generally if an employee was fired why would the employer give you money to leave? The only way I could see this happening is with a discrimination claim.
I don't know if this is the case in his situation, but I've worked at several places where when they fired people, they would give them money in exchange for signing a form not to sue them for any reason.
Former workers that I knew who quit or were fired were asked to sign that release not to sue. But I've never heard any receiving money to sign the form.
I was surprised too, but it is a standard HR procedure in this Fortune 500 company. of course the manager's don't want to see the cost hit their budget so they try to get you to leave without paying you. I was very surprised how easy it was to talk them into paying out.
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I don't need to know your specific details, but generally if an employee was fired why would the employer give you money to leave? The only way I could see this happening is with a discrimination claim.
I don't know if this is the case in his situation, but I've worked at several places where when they fired people, they would give them money in exchange for signing a form not to sue them for any reason.
Former workers that I knew who quit or were fired were asked to sign that release not to sue. But I've never heard any receiving money to sign the form.
Know relevant employment law in your state, what is/isn't allowed or customary. Personally, I would not voluntarily sign away any of my freedoms unless receiving something in return (employment, payment, or some other consideration.)
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I agree with the folks advocating baby steps. A thinking partner (could be a therapist, life coach, etc.) will probably be of great help. Also, I think you need to go play a bit (it'll help free up your creative side). Make an bucket list of some desired experiences and then take time to try them out. (Note: It may be best if you leave town so as to really take a break from you current situation.)
I think you'll retire when you have something to retire to (vs. retiring from).
Good luck!
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I think you could really benefit from the livingaFI blog: www.livingafi.com
Someone please correct me that's not the right url- I'm on my iPad and it's hard to switch out of tapatalk to a browser :)
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I think you could really benefit from the livingaFI blog: www.livingafi.com
Someone please correct me that's not the right url- I'm on my iPad and it's hard to switch out of tapatalk to a browser :)
Yup, that is our own Dr. Doom's site.
Great articles. The article on Midlife FI-sis (http://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/) made me understand what I was going thru.
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I think their goal is to get the long time workers to leave and hire new, cheaper workers.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
My dad had a 2 week fishing trip planned one year and they came in the day before he was supposed to leave and told him he couldn't go. He called in from the Canadian border and told them he would not be coming in (FU money at work). They didn't fire him.
Know relevant employment law in your state, what is/isn't allowed or customary. Personally, I would not voluntarily sign away any of my freedoms unless receiving something in return (employment, payment, or some other consideration.)
+1 You are leaving, they can't MAKE you sign anything. I bet HR people try to pass it off like just some form needed to process you last paycheck or something.
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Francis, I can relate to your problem. I was FI for a few years but didn't quit because I just didn't "feel" like I wanted to. I wondered what I would do with all my free time. Over the years of working I had developed thick callouses in that area in my mind that allows pleasure, self-worth, kindness, and other good things. If I retired, would I ever be able to get rid of those callouses and enjoy life again? Kind of a scary thought. Anyway, I the clusterF at work go so intense that I got fired, so I didn't have to quit. That was about 2 years ago. I have had more trouble enjoying retirement than I thought I would. But its still better than the BS at work, of course. Try to plan out what sort of activities you want to partake in before exiting. Good Luck.
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We can't FIRE for you. You already know the answers to the questions you seek.
I hope you find what you are looking for Francis.
Welcome to the forums. :)
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We can't FIRE for you. You already know the answers to the questions you seek.
I hope you find what you are looking for Francis.
Welcome to the forums. :)
I can FIRE for you. Just send check or money order for $1 million. You get the job, I'll get the freedom!
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We can't FIRE for you. You already know the answers to the questions you seek.
I hope you find what you are looking for Francis.
Welcome to the forums. :)
I can FIRE for you. Just send check or money order for $1 million. You get the job, I'll get the freedom!
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9743562/icon_lol.gif)
Well played.
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OP: you are institutionalised.
It's time for you to break out of prison.
And send us a postcard from your place in the sun.
I thought of The Shawshank Redemption too!
"Get busy living, or get busy dying"
+1
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Quit. I understand, believe me.
Last December I was off work for surgery. Work had been a rollcoaster for years but lately had plummeted to new lows. Soul sucking, hand wringing, drinking too much after a stressful day, sleeping pills to sleep at night. At home recovering from surgery, as the date drew closer to return to work I started to panic about going back to that hell hole. Every night my husband would come home from work to find me crying on the couch. I was starting the countdown on the days until I return. He was the one who suggested that I retire now. Literally I would ask over and over and over, "really? is it possible? I can retire? You mean I never have to go back there?" I could not wrap my head around it.
I am 56 and I planned to work until 60. It just went against everything in my work ethic, upbringing whatever to "bail" 4 years early. I just about drove my husband crazy asking him repeatedly "is it possible, really? really? give up a "good" government job? You mean I don't have to work 4 more years?"
Finally, as the day grew closer to return to work after surgery, I decided that I won't make a decision now I will wait and see how I feel after I get back to work. Long story short, two days back to work and I was done.
FUCK you assholes! I typed up my letter giving two weeks notice and with outstanding vacation owing I only had to work 4 days. I spent three days dealing with hell, shit hitting the fan and taking a moment here and there to shred. Shred shred shred. Day 4 morning I handed in all my company property (badge, etc.) Before going to lunch with my co-workers I told my boss I won't be back after lunch. My heart was pounding at the elevator like I had robbed the bank, broke out of prision, escaped from being held hostage, got away with murder, you get the picture.
Not for a second have I regretted it. I am eating homecooked meals (made by moi), drinking is probably 1/3 of what I was drinking. No more sleeping pills. Gym 5 days a week.
I did feel guilty in the beginning that my husband is still working but now, not so much. The stress on him is far less, we are not rushing around trying to grocery shop, clean the house, yardwork etc. He loves it because he sees I am finally happy. I am putting my health first now instead of last. I have had two surgeries in two years and have a few other medical issues that need attention.
I know it sounds crazy but I think I had PTSD (mild). The first couple of weeks I apparently was crying, shouting and screaming in my sleep. It seems insane now and it was only last month.
FU money is the truth. I get up when I want. I go to bed when I want and in between I do what I want.
I know it sounds arrogant but on a beautiful day like today, I was sitting out in the backyard reading a book with a coffee thinking how great life is now and "I am far too rich to put up with their bullshit"
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I know it sounds crazy but I think I had PTSD (mild). The first couple of weeks I apparently was crying, shouting and screaming in my sleep. It seems insane now and it was only last month. [/b]
[/i][/b]
I don't think this sounds crazy at all. I know at least 3 people who have had similar experiences with detoxing after leaving stressful jobs. And that's people I know well - who knows how many others are suffering in silence.[/move]
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I know it sounds crazy but I think I had PTSD (mild). The first couple of weeks I apparently was crying, shouting and screaming in my sleep. It seems insane now and it was only last month. [/b]
[/i][/b]
I don't think this sounds crazy at all. I know at least 3 people who have had similar experiences with detoxing after leaving stressful jobs. And that's people I know well - who knows how many others are suffering in silence.[/move]anks
Thanks, I appreciate hearing that I am not the only one. The worst nightmare wherein my husband had to wake me up I remember clearly. My boss was trying to decapitate me while a co-worker (who I did not really like) was holding me down. That is when I was shouting "NO NO NO NO NO".
It is almost like you are in a war and you do what you have to do to survive but once you are out you realize it was even more horrific that you thought. (No disrepect to anyone who was in a war which I am sure is a billion times worse).
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Quit. I understand, believe me.
Last December I was off work for surgery. Work had been a rollcoaster for years but lately had plummeted to new lows. Soul sucking, hand wringing, drinking too much after a stressful day, sleeping pills to sleep at night. At home recovering from surgery, as the date drew closer to return to work I started to panic about going back to that hell hole. Every night my husband would come home from work to find me crying on the couch. I was starting the countdown on the days until I return. He was the one who suggested that I retire now. Literally I would ask over and over and over, "really? is it possible? I can retire? You mean I never have to go back there?" I could not wrap my head around it.
I am 56 and I planned to work until 60. It just went against everything in my work ethic, upbringing whatever to "bail" 4 years early. I just about drove my husband crazy asking him repeatedly "is it possible, really? really? give up a "good" government job? You mean I don't have to work 4 more years?"
Finally, as the day grew closer to return to work after surgery, I decided that I won't make a decision now I will wait and see how I feel after I get back to work. Long story short, two days back to work and I was done.
FUCK you assholes! I typed up my letter giving two weeks notice and with outstanding vacation owing I only had to work 4 days. I spent three days dealing with hell, shit hitting the fan and taking a moment here and there to shred. Shred shred shred. Day 4 morning I handed in all my company property (badge, etc.) Before going to lunch with my co-workers I told my boss I won't be back after lunch. My heart was pounding at the elevator like I had robbed the bank, broke out of prision, escaped from being held hostage, got away with murder, you get the picture.
Not for a second have I regretted it. I am eating homecooked meals (made by moi), drinking is probably 1/3 of what I was drinking. No more sleeping pills. Gym 5 days a week.
I did feel guilty in the beginning that my husband is still working but now, not so much. The stress on him is far less, we are not rushing around trying to grocery shop, clean the house, yardwork etc. He loves it because he sees I am finally happy. I am putting my health first now instead of last. I have had two surgeries in two years and have a few other medical issues that need attention.
I know it sounds crazy but I think I had PTSD (mild). The first couple of weeks I apparently was crying, shouting and screaming in my sleep. It seems insane now and it was only last month.
FU money is the truth. I get up when I want. I go to bed when I want and in between I do what I want.
I know it sounds arrogant but on a beautiful day like today, I was sitting out in the backyard reading a book with a coffee thinking how great life is now and "I am far too rich to put up with their bullshit"
Wow, you pretty much nailed how I feel. I think I have a strong work ethic too and do my job well. But the BS they throw at us makes the environment toxic and unbearable. It's not crazy that you think you have a mild case of PTSD. I feel I have to detox from my workplace and even days off are affected knowing I have to go back to that place. It's like going back to jail. And that's the paradox. I really can afford not to go back yet I'm having a hard time packing it in. I know that sounds silly.
I'm glad that you had no regrets in retiring. Thanks for your thoughts and enjoy your new phase of your life.
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Life is way, way too short. Every day counts. Do not waste another day (preferably another hour) in that place. Keep us updated!
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Quit. no reason to miss out on things that bring you joy for something that doesn't when you're not forced too. To those people who say you can always have more security...think of it this way- what is the cost of all the stress and anxiety that this job is now causing you? These things absolutely do take a toll on our health and mental wellbeing. It's not worth it.
Another upside is they will likely have to pay you for your unused vacation too- depending on where you live. That may be a wake up call to them that denying tons of vacation is a financial risk. Enjoy retirement!
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"Day 4 morning I handed in all my company property (badge, etc.) Before going to lunch with my co-workers I told my boss I won't be back after lunch. My heart was pounding at the elevator like I had robbed the bank, broke out of prision, escaped from being held hostage, got away with murder, you get the picture."
Great stuff margarita! We're glad you made it out!
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You could do it financially. So if fear, inertia is keeping you there, what if you change your goal to figuring out how to live your post work FI life. What hobbies, what travel, how will you spend your days? What will put a satisfied smile on your face? If you find you don’t like plan A, what might plan B be? Get the medical stuff taken care of while you are still under insurance (as per lhamo).
If you don’t want to quit tomorrow, what if you quit the next time they say you can’t take vacation time for the trip you want. Or maybe go to part time. Get working on your exit strategy with a thinking partner to help. You can do this!
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Quit/retire! We know you can do this, but most of all you know you can do this. It is time!
Good luck.
And Margarita - thanks for sharing your story. Here's to the good life!
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I retired at 54 and wish I could have done it sooner. In my pre-FIRE days, I had the following posted on the wall in my office:
"Retiring too early is a mistake you can recover from. Too late and there is no recovery."
I've posted this thought around here before, but it bears repeating until everyone who needs to gets the message. Just dream up the best FU exit scenario you can and then make it happen. Baby, at our age, who knows how much time we have left? Get out there and start living!
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I retired at 54 and wish I could have done it sooner. In my pre-FIRE days, I had the following posted on the wall in my office:
"Retiring too early is a mistake you can recover from. Too late and there is no recovery."
I've posted this thought around here before, but it bears repeating until everyone who needs to gets the message. Just dream up the best FU exit scenario you can and then make it happen. Baby, at our age, who knows how much time we have left? Get out there and start living!
Amen sister!.. Even if that does mean taking a little p.t. job you enjoy..:)
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Having saved 80x expenses surely the dividends alone are covering your living expenses. Get it now before the stress causes your health to pack in. You've got way more than you need.
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I retired at 54 and wish I could have done it sooner. In my pre-FIRE days, I had the following posted on the wall in my office:
"Retiring too early is a mistake you can recover from. Too late and there is no recovery."
I've posted this thought around here before, but it bears repeating until everyone who needs to gets the message. Just dream up the best FU exit scenario you can and then make it happen. Baby, at our age, who knows how much time we have left? Get out there and start living!
Amen sister!.. Even if that does mean taking a little p.t. job you enjoy..:)
P.T. Job? Who took a P.T. Job? I'm gonna call the Retirement Police! Oh, yeah, they already have you on their radar ex-FB. Careful now...
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On radar?.. They have a "speed trap" set out just for me.. Or is that wealth trap in my case?..:)
Did I mention that just last week I made about half of what we will spend on our month long vacation to the UK at the end of July?... Oh and a few more airmiles and hotel points... Its a game you see and the "work" is actually entertaining..:)
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If you've been living in the states a while, it may just buy you week here in the UK. By all accounts, everything seems to be getting more expensive here Exflyboy
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+1 to lhamo's advice. I could not do any better. Take your vacations when you want, or quit and take them. My grandparents traveled late in life but it only made my granddad encourage me to travel more, younger. He said it gets harder to move around, you don't enjoy it as much, and he pointed out that the friends you'd planned on traveling with have a way of dying on you. Take those trips, with those people, while you can.
Most people will tell you to keep working. They don’t know anything else. You seem to have several times more than what you need.
Margarita, I could hug you. My husband left his job a few weeks ago and we'd planned for me to keep working. I’ve worked in tech for 20 years, since I was 18 (I worked full time while going to college full time). We made this plan out of fear: we are FIRE safely, and others on the forum have helped re-convince and encourage me. But for neither of us to work seemed Just Not Done.
An upcoming business trip was my breaking point. My company has these horrible engineering "work weeks" twice per year (it used to be every two months for the project I'm on), in which they fly people in from all over the world, sequester us in a hotel, and have us work intensely together for 12+ hours a day. At the one in Dec., due to executives causing an absolute s**t show, I worked 14-20 hours/day for five days.
It came time to book travel for this next trip, and I could not physically bring myself to it. I know it sounds bizarre, but it's like my hands wouldn't click the buttons. I was having panic attacks just thinking about it, crying on Sundays, etc. It really is like I have PTSD from the job and that last trip.
Nope, no more. Resigned to my boss last week and the rest of the company gets notified tomorrow. I’m not going to have Stockholm Syndrome. For 20 years a lot of my identity has been wrapped up in being a techie with other techies, the shared skills, language, history, practices, culture. But it’s toxic and I need to save myself. I really do feel like I’m escaping an abuser, though I know it sounds dramatic. The stuff about planning, shredding papers, etc. really resonated - this stuff is like plotting an escape!
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Good for you AnySteph!.. I use to do this p.t. job full time.. Which meant I travelled and worked 60 hours a week for 40 hours pay.
Like you I felt physically sick when I began to plan for another trip.. I had to get out and I did... Found an even more abusive employer with an 80 mile one way commute.
Get out and save yourself.. Work is not supposed to be like this!
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On radar?.. They have a "speed trap" set out just for me.. Or is that wealth trap in my case?..:)
Did I mention that just last week I made about half of what we will spend on our month long vacation to the UK at the end of July?... Oh and a few more airmiles and hotel points... Its a game you see and the "work" is actually entertaining..:)
Shit, ExFB, I don't care if you work! I rather enjoy seeing how much money you can make in as little time as possible. The difference is that you are not trapped and you know it. The OP needs a big dose of your enlightenment.
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On radar?.. They have a "speed trap" set out just for me.. Or is that wealth trap in my case?..:)
Did I mention that just last week I made about half of what we will spend on our month long vacation to the UK at the end of July?... Oh and a few more airmiles and hotel points... Its a game you see and the "work" is actually entertaining..:)
Shit, ExFB, I don't care if you work! I rather enjoy seeing how much money you can make in as little time as possible. The difference is that you are not trapped and you know it. The OP needs a big dose of your enlightenment.
Nope not trapped at all.. I hope my comment above alluded to that fact.
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Thank you to everyone for all the positive feedback on my personal story. You will never know how much it means to me to have this understanding and support.
Anysteph, Congratulations! Hugs to you!! I am thrilled for you and for your husband. You are free now!!!
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If you wait until you have it all figured out you'll never make a change. I don't mean the money issue, I mean the things that you'll do when you retire. Every time I have a new idea of what to do with my time I send myself an email with that information (sometimes I am not near a note pad or computer, but on the smartphone when the ideas come in). I then file that under "retirement." When I get a bit of time I can include those dreams in a list, and you'd be surprised at how long it is.
Also, really look inside and see if work is a big part of what you think your identity is. Leaving that often leaves you with a question of who you are. I can tell you that you are not your job, but it does take some time to transition away from that for some people.
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I retired at 54 and wish I could have done it sooner. In my pre-FIRE days, I had the following posted on the wall in my office:
"Retiring too early is a mistake you can recover from. Too late and there is no recovery."
I've posted this thought around here before, but it bears repeating until everyone who needs to gets the message. Just dream up the best FU exit scenario you can and then make it happen. Baby, at our age, who knows how much time we have left? Get out there and start living!
Diane C - if you have royalties on that saying I owe you some! Cut and pasted to my favorites - thank you.
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But the BS they throw at us makes the environment toxic and unbearable. It's not crazy that you think you have a mild case of PTSD. I feel I have to detox from my workplace and even days off are affected knowing I have to go back to that place. It's like going back to jail. And that's the paradox. I really can afford not to go back yet I'm having a hard time packing it in. I know that sounds silly.
It's very rare today to find someone who has worked in the same place for 30 years. You have undoubtedly gotten some great skills working as long as you have. You haven't told us what you do, except to say you work at a hospital. Hospital work has changed DRAMATICALLY in the last ten years. ERs which used to be huge, expensive cost centers are now being run as profit centers. Consolidations in the industry have driven out a lot of the nonprofit hospitals, and those that remain have had to modify their operating principles to survive. End-of-life care dominates the cost curve. It is, by all accounts, an incredibly difficult environment in which to keep your sanity.
Consider taking a break from your job. Your skills are probably very transferable. If you're in nursing, consider staying active with some private duty nursing or day rate nursing. It is much more lucrative but the hours are not as dependable. Which suits your needs just fine. You could also move to another area and transfer your skills and licensing with very little trouble.
With an annual spend of 30-32k, 80x spend means you have a stash of around $2.4m-$2.6m. Using the 4% rule, you could retire tomorrow on $96k a year and expect that to last the rest of your life. You owe it to yourself to at least take a break and decide how you want to live the rest of your life. There are exactly 0 scenarios in cFireSIM with those figures where you run out of money - even if you lived to be 120 years old. If you discover your work is your life - great! You can go back to work and take your time finding a place where you're happy to go to work in the morning.
Would love to hear what you decide to do - your post really impressed me. Please come back and check in here from time to time to let us know what you decide.
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Your best options:
2) Start throwing your weight around. You are in a position of strength. You have the leverage to quit at any moment. Make the workplace what you want it to be and if they fire you so be it. Make it clear that your vacation schedule is non- negotiable.
THIS. Don't ask them for vacation time, TELL them. Dare them to fire your ass. Work the hours you want to work, period. NO effing way I'd put up with ANY bullshit if I had your coin in the bank (assuming I wanted to still work at all, which I'm pretty sure I wouldn't -- except maybe just to fuck with everybody and do what I goddamn well pleased to see their reactions; i.e., it'd be fun to see just how far I could push it before they fired me).
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Quit. I understand, believe me.
Last December I was off work for surgery. Work had been a rollcoaster for years but lately had plummeted to new lows. Soul sucking, hand wringing, drinking too much after a stressful day, sleeping pills to sleep at night. At home recovering from surgery, as the date drew closer to return to work I started to panic about going back to that hell hole. Every night my husband would come home from work to find me crying on the couch. I was starting the countdown on the days until I return. He was the one who suggested that I retire now. Literally I would ask over and over and over, "really? is it possible? I can retire? You mean I never have to go back there?" I could not wrap my head around it.
I am 56 and I planned to work until 60. It just went against everything in my work ethic, upbringing whatever to "bail" 4 years early. I just about drove my husband crazy asking him repeatedly "is it possible, really? really? give up a "good" government job? You mean I don't have to work 4 more years?"
Finally, as the day grew closer to return to work after surgery, I decided that I won't make a decision now I will wait and see how I feel after I get back to work. Long story short, two days back to work and I was done.
FUCK you assholes! I typed up my letter giving two weeks notice and with outstanding vacation owing I only had to work 4 days. I spent three days dealing with hell, shit hitting the fan and taking a moment here and there to shred. Shred shred shred. Day 4 morning I handed in all my company property (badge, etc.) Before going to lunch with my co-workers I told my boss I won't be back after lunch. My heart was pounding at the elevator like I had robbed the bank, broke out of prision, escaped from being held hostage, got away with murder, you get the picture.
Not for a second have I regretted it. I am eating homecooked meals (made by moi), drinking is probably 1/3 of what I was drinking. No more sleeping pills. Gym 5 days a week.
I did feel guilty in the beginning that my husband is still working but now, not so much. The stress on him is far less, we are not rushing around trying to grocery shop, clean the house, yardwork etc. He loves it because he sees I am finally happy. I am putting my health first now instead of last. I have had two surgeries in two years and have a few other medical issues that need attention.
I know it sounds crazy but I think I had PTSD (mild). The first couple of weeks I apparently was crying, shouting and screaming in my sleep. It seems insane now and it was only last month.
FU money is the truth. I get up when I want. I go to bed when I want and in between I do what I want.
I know it sounds arrogant but on a beautiful day like today, I was sitting out in the backyard reading a book with a coffee thinking how great life is now and "I am far too rich to put up with their bullshit"
One of the best forum posts EVER!
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But the BS they throw at us makes the environment toxic and unbearable. It's not crazy that you think you have a mild case of PTSD. I feel I have to detox from my workplace and even days off are affected knowing I have to go back to that place. It's like going back to jail. And that's the paradox. I really can afford not to go back yet I'm having a hard time packing it in. I know that sounds silly.
It's very rare today to find someone who has worked in the same place for 30 years. You have undoubtedly gotten some great skills working as long as you have. You haven't told us what you do, except to say you work at a hospital. Hospital work has changed DRAMATICALLY in the last ten years. ERs which used to be huge, expensive cost centers are now being run as profit centers. Consolidations in the industry have driven out a lot of the nonprofit hospitals, and those that remain have had to modify their operating principles to survive. End-of-life care dominates the cost curve. It is, by all accounts, an incredibly difficult environment in which to keep your sanity.
Consider taking a break from your job. Your skills are probably very transferable. If you're in nursing, consider staying active with some private duty nursing or day rate nursing. It is much more lucrative but the hours are not as dependable. Which suits your needs just fine. You could also move to another area and transfer your skills and licensing with very little trouble.
With an annual spend of 30-32k, 80x spend means you have a stash of around $2.4m-$2.6m. Using the 4% rule, you could retire tomorrow on $96k a year and expect that to last the rest of your life. You owe it to yourself to at least take a break and decide how you want to live the rest of your life. There are exactly 0 scenarios in cFireSIM with those figures where you run out of money - even if you lived to be 120 years old. If you discover your work is your life - great! You can go back to work and take your time finding a place where you're happy to go to work in the morning.
Would love to hear what you decide to do - your post really impressed me. Please come back and check in here from time to time to let us know what you decide.
You described the changes to Healthcare in the last decade very well. Let's see I started in a 180 bed community hospital in the 80's. They merged with another community hospital near the turn of the century. Then the whole ball of wax was purchased by a large for profit hospital chain. What started as being a service for community good was transformed in the constant and relentless pursuit of $$$$.
I work as a pharmacist. The work has changed significantly over the years. I can still do the work. It's all the BS and how poorly they treat some workers that bothers me. See, the veteran workers make more than new hires by a significant amount. In their relentless pursuit of $$$$ they hope to create an environment where the veteran workers quit. I think they are pushing the envelope well into the area of discriminating against older workers. I know that's hard to prove and they are thinking no one will call them out. It's a tough situation because the issue was brought up to a manager and they just brushed it off. HR doesn't seem to want to get involved. They will never offer early retirement severance. Their SOP is to make the work environment so toxic that people will leave on their own.
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I work as a pharmacist. The work has changed significantly over the years. I can still do the work. It's all the BS and how poorly they treat some workers that bothers me. See, the veteran workers make more than new hires by a significant amount. In their relentless pursuit of $$$$ they hope to create an environment where the veteran workers quit. I think they are pushing the envelope well into the area of discriminating against older workers. I know that's hard to prove and they are thinking no one will call them out. It's a tough situation because the issue was brought up to a manager and they just brushed it off. HR doesn't seem to want to get involved. They will never offer early retirement severance. Their SOP is to make the work environment so toxic that people will leave on their own.
I'm so pleased that you are still reading this thread - all too often we never know if the OP has read all the replies coming in, let alone taken them on board. So congratulations on making it through to the end of all the facepunches.
I get you with the disparities in working conditions for more recent employees. I spent 25 years as a civil servant (in the UK), and for nearly all of that time I was also a volunteer elected trades union official, so I spent a lot of time and energy trying to ensure fair conditions and supporting employees in trouble. There was nothing I could do to reverse the bigger societal trends though, particularly the shift of pensions from defined contributions to defined (and reduced) benefits for newer employees, although we did as a union negotiate hard and managed some changes around the edges of that shift.
I don't know whether or not you are actively involved in fighting management as a union member, or whether you are staying on as an act of passive resistance. My choice to leave was made when as part of a redundancy round I was offered an insane deal that was too good to pass up - in fact, it was so good that it was outside the parameters management set themselves, but I suspect that when they saw my name on the list of applicants they saw it as a one-off opportunity to get rid of someone who held their crappy decision-making up to scrutiny. I took the money and walked out head-high: staying on would have had nebulous benefits for my colleagues and the organisation at a greater cost to me personally than the worth of those benefits generally. I'm sorry you do not have the same opportunity to take money off these people - but then, you have FU money and can walk out head high regardless.
I think the benefits to you personally of leaving will probably be incalculably greater than those to you and your colleagues of continuing to be a passive thorn in the side of management. Also, by leaving you will be opening up a job for someone who needs it (even if that job is crappier than you think it should be). And once you are outside the organisation, you will have the time, energy and expertise to get involved in some local activism on behalf of your local community and its health-care needs - from your position of strength you could speak up very effectively.
If you do stay at work, I hope you start throwing your weight around - you have nothing to lose. Take your holiday when you want it. Write politely nasty memos to management about what is wrong. Speak up against management policies at staff meetings. Use your strength to make yourself a thorough nuisance to management - every day you go to work ask yourself "what needs changing around here, and what can I do about it today". I'm not saying any of it will work, but it will give you a feeling of empowerment, and that is a lovely thing.
Best of luck.
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If you do stay at work, I hope you start throwing your weight around - you have nothing to lose.
This.
Once FI, your brain-to-mouth filter should be permanently disconnected at work. You will make enemies (they were never really your friends anyway) but you will earn far more respect than you can imagine if you are polite while being candid. The truth is powerful.
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Francis, as an experienced pharmacist, I would think you could pick up retail shifts on an as-needed basis to help "cushion" your entry into blissful retirement.
I have heard that pharmacy is saturated with recent graduates, and that prime positions are now very competitive. But I also read that this is more true in urban and suburban areas than in rural areas. I wonder if you would consider a change to a low cost-of-living, more rural area? Your living expenses might be less and you could still work part time if you wanted, in an area where your skills might be more appreciated.
There's an awful lot of "Pennsyltucky" out there in PA for you to choose from. :)
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There's an awful lot of "Pennsyltucky" out there in PA for you to choose from. :)
Yes there is! And I haven't heard someone call it that for quite some time...
Apart from that, I'm with the "get out" crowd. My MIL works in a healthcare, and she is getting ground down by the apathy and money-grubbing that has recently come to her hospital. Luckily, she and my FIL are financially set AND have a frugal side to boot. At 80x earnings and a less-than-over-the-top spending habit, get out!
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A couple of questions for you to ponder, Francis:
1) The practical/detailed one: What is keeping you from scheduling/taking that vacation on the Cape with your friends?
My friends booked the vacation a while ago.
2) The philosophical one (and one I have been trying to ask myself regularly as I made choices about my life the past several months: What would you do if you were not afraid?
I hope you can find the courage to quit. One of the things that made it hard for me is I do still honestly believe in the mission of the organization I work for, and in the value of our programs/our people. Doesn't sound like there is much worth hanging onto at your employer, though.
Read my signature line repeatedly. It's true.
Thanks for your response. Why don't I go on the vacation? Simple. Employer won't approve my vacation request for that week.I don't know if afraid is the correct word. I'm a competitive person and if they are doing illegal things to older workers I want them to be held accountable. If I quit I understand it's much harder to enforce my rights.
Your right, there's nothing positive to hang onto at work. It's ridiculous how hard they are trying to get veteran workers to quit. A new tactic they just unveiled is scheduling veteran workers, including me, for a week of evenings during Christmas week. Man I've never done anything close to that in 30 years yet all of a sudden they need us to do this? And there are people who want to work evenings that week and guess what - they won't let them work it. It makes no sense at all.
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Francis,
What would you need to happen to make the decision to FIRE at a redonkulous 80x expenses?
Seriously, let's explore and define your boundaries. Maybe we can find a safe space where you can leave while retaining whatever it is that you are trying to hold on to.
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I work as a pharmacist. The work has changed significantly over the years. I can still do the work. It's all the BS and how poorly they treat some workers that bothers me. See, the veteran workers make more than new hires by a significant amount. In their relentless pursuit of $$$$ they hope to create an environment where the veteran workers quit. I think they are pushing the envelope well into the area of discriminating against older workers. I know that's hard to prove and they are thinking no one will call them out. It's a tough situation because the issue was brought up to a manager and they just brushed it off. HR doesn't seem to want to get involved. They will never offer early retirement severance. Their SOP is to make the work environment so toxic that people will leave on their own.
I'm so pleased that you are still reading this thread - all too often we never know if the OP has read all the replies coming in, let alone taken them on board. So congratulations on making it through to the end of all the facepunches.
I get you with the disparities in working conditions for more recent employees. I spent 25 years as a civil servant (in the UK), and for nearly all of that time I was also a volunteer elected trades union official, so I spent a lot of time and energy trying to ensure fair conditions and supporting employees in trouble. There was nothing I could do to reverse the bigger societal trends though, particularly the shift of pensions from defined contributions to defined (and reduced) benefits for newer employees, although we did as a union negotiate hard and managed some changes around the edges of that shift.
I don't know whether or not you are actively involved in fighting management as a union member, or whether you are staying on as an act of passive resistance. My choice to leave was made when as part of a redundancy round I was offered an insane deal that was too good to pass up - in fact, it was so good that it was outside the parameters management set themselves, but I suspect that when they saw my name on the list of applicants they saw it as a one-off opportunity to get rid of someone who held their crappy decision-making up to scrutiny. I took the money and walked out head-high: staying on would have had nebulous benefits for my colleagues and the organisation at a greater cost to me personally than the worth of those benefits generally. I'm sorry you do not have the same opportunity to take money off these people - but then, you have FU money and can walk out head high regardless.
I think the benefits to you personally of leaving will probably be incalculably greater than those to you and your colleagues of continuing to be a passive thorn in the side of management. Also, by leaving you will be opening up a job for someone who needs it (even if that job is crappier than you think it should be). And once you are outside the organisation, you will have the time, energy and expertise to get involved in some local activism on behalf of your local community and its health-care needs - from your position of strength you could speak up very effectively.
If you do stay at work, I hope you start throwing your weight around - you have nothing to lose. Take your holiday when you want it. Write politely nasty memos to management about what is wrong. Speak up against management policies at staff meetings. Use your strength to make yourself a thorough nuisance to management - every day you go to work ask yourself "what needs changing around here, and what can I do about it today". I'm not saying any of it will work, but it will give you a feeling of empowerment, and that is a lovely thing.
Best of luck.
Thanks for your thoughts. They are very logical. I know what you mean by speaking up about what is wrong. I agree that it's not going to matter but why not be a thorn in managements side? The place is very toxic. We've had four Directors in the past two years. About 7 grunt workers quit or retired in the last two months. All of that I can live with but when they reward younger workers at the expense of older workers I draw the line there. The should be held accountable for their actions.
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Francis, as an experienced pharmacist, I would think you could pick up retail shifts on an as-needed basis to help "cushion" your entry into blissful retirement.
I have heard that pharmacy is saturated with recent graduates, and that prime positions are now very competitive. But I also read that this is more true in urban and suburban areas than in rural areas. I wonder if you would consider a change to a low cost-of-living, more rural area? Your living expenses might be less and you could still work part time if you wanted, in an area where your skills might be more appreciated.
There's an awful lot of "Pennsyltucky" out there in PA for you to choose from. :)
I already live in a pretty low cost area now. If I left this job permanently I think I would not work for a while and see how it goes. If for some reason, like being bored, I wanted to work again it would be under my terms. A few days a month is all I would want.
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Francis,
What would you need to happen to make the decision to FIRE at a redonkulous 80x expenses?
Seriously, let's explore and define your boundaries. Maybe we can find a safe space where you can leave while retaining whatever it is that you are trying to hold on to.
Good idea. Here's what needs to happen. I'm going to speak frankly. I need to know if what the employer is doing to older workers is allowed. Not by their standards but by legal standards. All efforts, to managers and HR, to understand why they are doing these things are met by silence. The only other way to determine my answer, and perhaps the best way, is to consult an employment lawyer or two. If two employment lawyers say I work in a shitty workplace but not an illegal one I will let the issue go once and for all.
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Francis,
What would you need to happen to make the decision to FIRE at a redonkulous 80x expenses?
Seriously, let's explore and define your boundaries. Maybe we can find a safe space where you can leave while retaining whatever it is that you are trying to hold on to.
Good idea. Here's what needs to happen. I'm going to speak frankly. I need to know if what the employer is doing to older workers is allowed. Not by their standards but by legal standards. All efforts, to managers and HR, to understand why they are doing these things are met by silence. The only other way to determine my answer, and perhaps the best way, is to consult an employment lawyer or two. If two employment lawyers say I work in a shitty workplace but not an illegal one I will let the issue go once and for all.
Do it!
I'll give an opinion and it isn't worth much b/c I'm not an attorney. It sounds like they are breaking the law. I suspect though that it will be impossible (and expensive) to prove in a court of law. You are best just letting assholes be assholes and live your life free. Being retired while the shitheads have to show up every Monday will be your best revenge.
At any rate, to answer your question about why you stay ... it is because you are offended by the discrimination and want to fight back. You have your answer. Now ask yourself what is best for you right now?
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You have enough money to pay for an employment lawyer. If this is your big fight with the company and you won't quit before you get some answers, then consult an employment lawyer or two.
However, if you take a step back (or two), think about whether you are fighting a fight worth fighting. What will it ask of you, to be involved in a lawsuit (possibly)? What will change if you win that lawsuit? What will it do to you, to your health, to your finite amount of time left on this earth?
Some fights are worth fighting, others are not. I can't make that decision for you.
Another thing: reading your posts, I believe you do have a strong work attitude. You believe that your actual job, that your knowledge and skill set, is valuable. I think you are absolutely right about that. The world needs good pharmacists :-) Perhaps it's better to start exploring what else you can do with your diplomas and skills. For example: is there another hospital or health care center or charity in your area that could use the help of a pharmacist? You can take a major pay cut without suffering any ill consequences. You can even work for free. You have enough money to sustain yourself for the next 100 years anyway. It could very well be that your talent and hard work etc are more useful elsewhere (given how your work currently makes money for your current employer, I would say your work can be more useful almost anywhere).
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In my first teaching job, I worked next to an old grumpy man. The union is very strong here, so management had no way of getting rid of him. And he knew all of his rights. This was a huge blessing for the rest of us, since he stood up for everyone. He used to sit in the back of staff meeting, half asleep. But if there was any mention of something that could be considered extra work, he raised his voice. Because of his intervention, I got more than 100% OT for grading an extra set of exams.
Another place I worked, I got a visit in my cubicle from a female coworker. She just wanted to ask me to fill out form 11B; apparently I was owed both travelling money, and payment for the time I spent travelling, because I was teaching at a separate department from the main school. That was not something management wanted me to know, but when I filled out the correct form, they couldn't avoid paying me.
Francis: is a lawyer the only way to go? You don't have unions to take the fight for you?
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Thanks for your response. Why don't I go on the vacation? Simple. Employer won't approve my vacation request for that week.I don't know if afraid is the correct word. I'm a competitive person and if they are doing illegal things to older workers I want them to be held accountable. If I quit I understand it's much harder to enforce my rights.
Your right, there's nothing positive to hang onto at work. It's ridiculous how hard they are trying to get veteran workers to quit. A new tactic they just unveiled is scheduling veteran workers, including me, for a week of evenings during Christmas week. Man I've never done anything close to that in 30 years yet all of a sudden they need us to do this? And there are people who want to work evenings that week and guess what - they won't let them work it. It makes no sense at all.
Please go on that vacation. These things don't come back.
I have the feeling that your ego is playing a trick on you. Don't try to get some kind of justice or gratification from this. In some games you can only lose even if you win. The main idea of FI is not to waste time with assholes. They only suck up your energy. Find something you enjoy and do that.
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Thanks for your response. Why don't I go on the vacation? Simple. Employer won't approve my vacation request for that week.I don't know if afraid is the correct word. I'm a competitive person and if they are doing illegal things to older workers I want them to be held accountable. If I quit I understand it's much harder to enforce my rights.
Your right, there's nothing positive to hang onto at work. It's ridiculous how hard they are trying to get veteran workers to quit. A new tactic they just unveiled is scheduling veteran workers, including me, for a week of evenings during Christmas week. Man I've never done anything close to that in 30 years yet all of a sudden they need us to do this? And there are people who want to work evenings that week and guess what - they won't let them work it. It makes no sense at all.
Please go on that vacation. These things don't come back.
I have the feeling that your ego is playing a trick on you. Don't try to get some kind of justice or gratification from this. In some games you can only lose even if you win. The main idea of FI is not to waste time with assholes. They only suck up your energy. Find something you enjoy and do that.
I don't quite agree. OP, figure out how much justice is worth to you (or how much justice you'll pay the price to fight for.) You may choose to do something for the sake of your self respect or for those not in a position to stand up for their rights. The right answer is a personal decision, but I won't discourage you from taking a reasonable amount of action against unfairness. (And, on a selfish note, you may find fighting workplace ageism to be the most meaningful and satisfying thing you've done in years. We all want to spend our time and energy on something that matters. This will matter.)
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Get a doctor to prescribe time off. Your employer can't touch you with a medical leave. Enjoy your trip!!! Your health is important. If you choose to battle the company, you should do it well rested with good counsel. A medical leave is protected and you won't lose any positions with your complaint.
If you are going to pursue any legal action, I would be very careful on what you post. Make sure that your names are anonymous, you don't use work computers, don't post crazy stuff on social media, Etc. Everything will be used against you.
Make sure this is a battle that you want to fight. Are you willing to die for this cause? Your stress and health may be severely affected if you choose to take this fight. Talk to an attorney now so you can collect evidence and facts.
Good luck.
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OP (FracisInPA) - any update? Please set yourself free.
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As a rabble rouser who supports fair treatment of all people, I hope that OP's silence is precipitated by a pending legal action.
Ever thought about just calling in sick on all of those Christmas week evenings that are scheduled? You could all conspire to do it. Then file a wrongful termination lawsuit if they fire you. My Mom used to drive a bus, and the vets conspired in this way to get things changed. Force someone with seniority into a shift they don't want, and they all call in sick with great frequency. They acrued sick time and so could really make it work. I personally like the medical leave option for you as well. Of course that won't hurt management as much because then payment will shift over to the disability insurance company, but it will get you your earned vacation time.
Remember, no one can MAKE you show up to work on a certain date or at a certain time. Heck, you could call in sick for your entire planned vacation. As someone else said, whatertheygonna do, fire you? You are already FIREd in a good way.
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If you do want to file a lawsuit (vs. a complaint with an agency), you do have to stay iin the job because otherwise you may not have standing and the suit could get tossed before it gets started. This may be different in a discrimination suit - but this could be something to as a lawyer if you decide to proceed. A complaint with the right agency may be just as effective (or more effective).
Good luck, let us know what ever you decide to do.
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I have a few thoughts but only in a general way. I am still working there and don't like one bit how I've been treated there. I did speak to an employment lawyer and here are his thoughts. Said of the many things being done to us several are legal but he believes they crossed the line on a few issues into illegality. He then said it's hard, but not impossible, to prosecute this type of case for a few reasons, one being because the company didn't terminate my employment. If I was fired over reporting a discrimination issue it would be easier to seek relief. Also said this type of case could drag out over a long time and if I don't win often I could be responsible for oppositions legal bills.
So what to do? I'm thinking just to get out. Resign. Get away from these people forever. However, here's where my thoughts start to drift. I'm thinking either pack it in for good mid August or try to make it till April (401k filled for 2016). I admit I'd really like the 401 filled for 2016 but I have to go thru pure hell to do it. So that would be delaying gratification which supposed to be a good thing. But I wonder if there comes a point where you don't delay gratification further as in you've delayed it enough already.
On a brighter note, I'm beginning to see leaving work as a tremendous opportunity for me to be in control of my time and activities. I'm actually getting excited with all the things I could do. If I've saved all my life and do not reward myself to pursue my interests then what was the point of saving?
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Stop drifting. Just go. Write your resignation letter today, and post it first thing tomorrow morning. Before you have a chance to agonize or second guess yourself. The grass really is greener on the other side.
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You are at 80X! Where does one more year of 401k take you? 80.5X? 82X?
Write the letter and leave. Enjoy the rest of your years, months, days, hours... Instead of torturing yourself!
But, it is obviously your decision, just do what you have to do to take care of yourself mentally, emotionally, and physically (financially is well covered).
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I think you should leave now. But if you stay until April, PROMISE US YOU WON'T TAKE ANY SHIT!!! I mean seriously. Have you ever seen Office Space where the lead character stops giving a shit and decides to see just what it would take to literally get fired? He has a great time at work (when he bothers to show up!) We all have a brain to mouth filter. You should turn yours off. Don't like the bosses attitude? Give him/her an earful! And then go repeat it all to HR with a formal complaint about abusive behavior.
The worst they can do is FIRE you early! Be bold.
EDIT: And take your vacation. Tell your immediate supervisor and HR your trip is non-negotiable. You won't be at work those days. They can either give you your vacation time, dock your pay, or terminate you. DO NOT BACK DOWN ON THIS POINT.
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FU money is the truth. I get up when I want. I go to bed when I want and in between I do what I want.
I know it sounds arrogant but on a beautiful day like today, I was sitting out in the backyard reading a book with a coffee thinking how great life is now and "I am far too rich to put up with their bullshit"
So inspiring!
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Wait a minute, April is a whole year (almost) away. Go today!
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Francis, you are 55 and at 80x expenses! You have delayed gratification long enough. Resign now, go on your trip, and share what that lawyer told you with your fellow coworkers who are also being squeezed out, so they are better informed. I assume some cannot afford to just walk away from the bad situation.
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With your current fund so high, is the 401k max for 2016 really worth the hell you will have to go through? Your past work and savings rate has given you the chance (comfortably) for freedom. Buy it and get out! Stay excited about your opportunities!
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I keep checking in on this thread hoping Francis has pulled the trigger...I'll keep checking...
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For anyone following this thread and wanting to know more about age discrmination, you can check out this site:
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/regulations/adea_rfoa_qa_final_rule.cfm
A Supreme Court decision held that if an employee proves a company's actions or policies had a disparate impact on employees over 40, the company can defend itself by showing that it acted on a reasonable factor other than age. (Some courts had previously held the only defense was business necessity.). The newer standard makes it much harder to win a case for the employee. For example, if your employer could show that it needed more experienced people to work Christamas week, that would be a defense to a claim of age discrimination.
On a completely different note, perhaps we should plan a weekend somewhere fun for all of us who are having trouble pulling the plug when we are FI.
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Things like giving new hires preferred working hours and changing veteran workers hours to undesirable ones. I've earned 5 weeks of yearly vacation time but I can't use it when I want. I should say when I request time off they repeatedly say, sorry but that's not a good time. Problem is there doesn't seem to be any good time for me take vacation time. I've will miss out on a summer trip to Cape Cod with friends, a Florida trip and a golf trip because of not granting my vacation requests. So why do I still work there?
First, lets address the real problem here. I am not FI yet, but I have enough in the bank that losing my job does not worry me. When I want a day off, I e-mail my supervisor and say "hey, I'm taking month-day off, if you need anything, call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx".
That's it. There is no asking permission. I work hard and get stuff done. Customers and co-workers like me. I'm valuable to the company. I can count on one hand the number of times there has been a problem, and in those cases I talk to the boss face to face and we work something out.
You are FI, stop letting some asshole tell you when you are and are not allowed to leave work. Stop asking and start telling. Channel your inner Peter Gibbons, post-hypnosis. All the stress is self-inflicted.
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With your current fund so high, is the 401k max for 2016 really worth the hell you will have to go through? Your past work and savings rate has given you the chance (comfortably) for freedom. Buy it and get out! Stay excited about your opportunities!
Exactly!
I was in your shoes, was thinking about staying thru April 2016 to max the 401k for 2016. My workplace wasn't as awful as yours, but I still disliked it. Decided the stupid tax deduction was totally not worth a year of that crap. Fuck that. I'll pay taxes! I'd rather pay taxes than spend 1/3 of my time miserable. So I shitcanned my original plan (rather impulsively), quit my annoying job and FIREd, and I'm so relieved.
Please resign and enjoy life, go on your trip, spend time doing what you love, not what you hate. It's a lot better that way. Cut that BS out of your life and smell the flowers! You can do it!
-The Pigeon
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You have 80 X yearly expenses, plus SS and a pension. I hate to break it to you, but you aren't going to live to be 140 years old. Quit now and go on those trips.
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I am still working there and don't like one bit how I've been treated there. I did speak to an employment lawyer and here are his thoughts. Said of the many things being done to us several are legal but he believes they crossed the line on a few issues into illegality. He then said it's hard, but not impossible, to prosecute this type of case for a few reasons, one being because the company didn't terminate my employment. If I was fired over reporting a discrimination issue it would be easier to seek relief. Also said this type of case could drag out over a long time and if I don't win often I could be responsible for oppositions legal bills.
So what to do? I'm thinking just to get out. Resign. Get away from these people forever. However, here's where my thoughts start to drift.
It appears to me as if you are so upset with what your employers are doing that you want to get even with a large nebulous organization rather than be healthy and really live your life.
You used to have extremely good employers, now they aren't.
Anything you do really won't be any skin off their nose, and it could cause you a lot more pain. Are you prepared to sacrifice yourself for something that is borderline?
I really think you would be better off going as quickly as you can.
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Hi Francis.
There is a huge opportunity cost to NOT quitting. For you there is almost no cost to quitting. At this point, with your savings, every day you walk in that door you are making the choice to be there when you simply do not have to be.
You're 55. How much more of your life to you want to voluntarily give to an organization you have come to hate, which is making you demonstrably sicker, and which is treating you so poorly you are considering entangling yourself in a messy, expensive lawsuit just to make some sense of it.
If you quit today, when you die (statistically for men in the US at age 78) are you going to think back and wish you spent another couple years at this place? And God forbid, what if statistics aren't on your side? What if you don't quit for another year, and then you are diagnosed with a terminal disease and die at 57? How would you feel knowing you kept on for 50% of your remaining life at this job when you didn't have to?
Best wishes. We're all rooting for you!
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Hi FrancisinPA, I've been rooting for you, as well. Got any update?
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Rooting for you. For the cyber-stalkers by clicking on his username it shows that his account was active today.
Last Active: Today at 11:00:57 AM
Hopefully, he is just digesting that he is a free man. The heavy shackles are really made out of rice paper. Leave the cave and see the light!
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I can only say what others have said - quit now!
Your situation is almost identical to my husband's two years ago, except he was in retail pharmacy, not hospital. We called it the "WalMartization" of health care. New grads make 20% less than old hires, and also rarely get full time now. They are forced to work at least 2 jobs to make up enough hours, and do not get benefits. Management wants only new hires, and wants all the old guys to disappear. They treat all staff horribly, and so do the customers. He was actually getting physically ill every day before he went to work, but couldn't seem to just quit. Finally, things came to a head, and he walked out. Best decision ever! He still wanted to work some, so put his name in with a relief company. He had more offers of work than he could handle, and was able to structure his days and weeks exactly how he wanted. Need vacation time? Just block those weeks off. If a relief posting wasn't pleasant, he just refused to ever work for them again. Stress levels went down, happiness went up, and it's a great way to transition to full retirement. He didn't need to work financially, but wasn't ready to give it all up yet. He used to love being a pharmacist - I bet you did too. Now he's down to one day a week, and will quit even that in a few months. He wonders why he didn't do it sooner.
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First, I want to thank everyone for their advice, support and well wishes. I didn't post recently because not much changed. Still there. Digesting options. Regarding age discrimination it's true that employer may be off the hook if they defend their actions with a "reasonable factor other than age". Older employees earn significantly more than a new employee. So, are they targeting us because we're old or because we earn more? Our lawyer will say age and theirs will say economic. Is the ability to hire new workers at a lower salary a reasonable factor other than age? Who knows how a court will rule?
I was thinking. A new employee can be had for 25-28k less than us veterans. Thats significant. What if I approached someone, HR etc., and propose a deal. I'll leave voluntarily, unlock their 25-28k savings, but I get something out of the deal. I don't know exactly what maybe Healthcare for a while or x weeks pay. Then I'll feel like they didn't get away with something. What's the chance of this succeeding? Is it worth a shot? What should I ask for? They only can say no.
At work today, an excellent PharmD announced she was leaving. Great worker, just had enough. They treated her like shit and when she told them she was leaving - they had the nerve to ask her to stay longer than her notice required because they were short workers. She said no and they took it hard. I'd say over the last year we had at least 15 people quit (not all pharmacists). Hopefully in the near future I'd be #16.
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Sounds like you would also need to be prepared to stay until they had a replacement person, but if you propose a deal that you would stay until they get someone and you would get something out of the deal, I think it would be worth a shot. Maybe not even something concrete. Maybe something like being treated nicely for the remainder of your stay.
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I can only say what others have said - quit now!
Your situation is almost identical to my husband's two years ago, except he was in retail pharmacy, not hospital. We called it the "WalMartization" of health care. New grads make 20% less than old hires, and also rarely get full time now. They are forced to work at least 2 jobs to make up enough hours, and do not get benefits. Management wants only new hires, and wants all the old guys to disappear. They treat all staff horribly, and so do the customers. He was actually getting physically ill every day before he went to work, but couldn't seem to just quit. Finally, things came to a head, and he walked out. Best decision ever! He still wanted to work some, so put his name in with a relief company. He had more offers of work than he could handle, and was able to structure his days and weeks exactly how he wanted. Need vacation time? Just block those weeks off. If a relief posting wasn't pleasant, he just refused to ever work for them again. Stress levels went down, happiness went up, and it's a great way to transition to full retirement. He didn't need to work financially, but wasn't ready to give it all up yet. He used to love being a pharmacist - I bet you did too. Now he's down to one day a week, and will quit even that in a few months. He wonders why he didn't do it sooner.
You summarized my life with your post. New hires salaries are declining due to new pharmacy schools pumping out huge numbers of graduates. For the first time in a long time supply of pharmacists exceeds demand. So how do they get the older, higher pain pharmacists out? By the tactics your husband and myself had to endure. This pharmacist surplus is serious. I read where Walgreen's lowered their starting salary in Florida by 20%. They can hire as many pharmacists as they want at this rate. Just how to get the veterans out. Thanks for your post.
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Good luck Francis - we are all pulling for you!
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lhamo called it. You ask for a package because it doesn't hurt to ask. Pick a riDONKulous consulting rate and let them know if they are desperate after you leave that is what it will cost them to have you temp for them. Your worst case scenario is walking away with "just" your freedom.
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I think OP is more concerned about the ethical situation of the company riding roughshod over its workers than any continued paycheck from the company.
With the others, though, I think getting out and getting your own freedom should be the first priority instead of getting tied up in a soul-sucking lawsuit that may or may not have much effect.
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Hard as it would be to do, I recommend jettisoning the idea of a lawsuit because it would tie you to the company for YEARS to come. You're trying to get OUT, not mire yourself down in the muck even more.
Trust me, their pockets are deeper than yours. They could drag something like this out for a very long time, with no guarantee of a satisfactory resolution for you at the end of it.
Your whole world has been this job, so it's hard to imagine lifting your head and looking out and not worrying about this place or those people anymore. But that's exactly what I encourage you to do. Dream. Dream BIG. Lift your head and look out way beyond the pettiness and shameful behavior of your employers and recognize that you don't need to tilt at this particular windmill anymore.
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I can only say what others have said - quit now!
Your situation is almost identical to my husband's two years ago, except he was in retail pharmacy, not hospital. We called it the "WalMartization" of health care. New grads make 20% less than old hires, and also rarely get full time now. They are forced to work at least 2 jobs to make up enough hours, and do not get benefits. Management wants only new hires, and wants all the old guys to disappear. They treat all staff horribly, and so do the customers. He was actually getting physically ill every day before he went to work, but couldn't seem to just quit. Finally, things came to a head, and he walked out. Best decision ever! He still wanted to work some, so put his name in with a relief company. He had more offers of work than he could handle, and was able to structure his days and weeks exactly how he wanted. Need vacation time? Just block those weeks off. If a relief posting wasn't pleasant, he just refused to ever work for them again. Stress levels went down, happiness went up, and it's a great way to transition to full retirement. He didn't need to work financially, but wasn't ready to give it all up yet. He used to love being a pharmacist - I bet you did too. Now he's down to one day a week, and will quit even that in a few months. He wonders why he didn't do it sooner.
You summarized my life with your post. New hires salaries are declining due to new pharmacy schools pumping out huge numbers of graduates. For the first time in a long time supply of pharmacists exceeds demand. So how do they get the older, higher pain pharmacists out? By the tactics your husband and myself had to endure. This pharmacist surplus is serious. I read where Walgreen's lowered their starting salary in Florida by 20%. They can hire as many pharmacists as they want at this rate. Just how to get the veterans out. Thanks for your post.
I know how hard this is. Pharmacy isn't just a job - it's who you are. It's difficult to turn off years and years of helping people. But your stress and unhappiness has to be bleeding into your personal life also. Your friends and family have noticed that you are stressed, and not yourself. It is affecting all your relationships, whether you know it or not. Do not give this management any more power over your life. No lawsuit - that would chain these people to you for years. As I type this, I can see hubby sitting on the deck, drinking a coffee, and reading the paper. Best ad ever for getting out!
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I think OP is more concerned about the ethical situation of the company riding roughshod over its workers than any continued paycheck from the company.
With the others, though, I think getting out and getting your own freedom should be the first priority instead of getting tied up in a soul-sucking lawsuit that may or may not have much effect.
Yes I am concerned about how unethical the company is acting. It's like they know what they are doing but figure no one will stand up to them. My God, there is a worker here who has multiple serious health conditions and her Doctor wrote a note that she cannot start work earlier than 8 am. Others workers will gladly switch with her so this can occur. Guess what - they denied her request. They told her absolutely not. When she asked to put the denial in writing they refused. This is what we're up against. What she and her Doctor wanted sounded like a reasonable accommodation. There is no business need to deny her. They figure no one will get a lawyer and fight. If anyone else suggests go to HR forget it. They back whatever the company wants 100%. Probably fear for their jobs.
That being said, if a lawsuit is not the best path that's OK. I understand how strong the company is with retained labor attorneys, a lot of money, and the ability to delay things for a long time. Just figure it would be a big pain in their butt, but a lot of you said it'll be a pain in my butt too.
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I have to agree.
The whole idea in becoming FIRED is to be free from stress. Why would you do this to yourself? Those company lawyers could turn on you and start making threats of frivolous lawsuits on YOU! The costs to defend yourself could seriously hurt your ER'd status, they don't have to win!
Just how Monsanto drives little farmers out of business come to think of it. They got a much bigger stick than you have... Don't poke the sleeping bear!
AS to them treating your colleagues badly.. Yes that would annoy me too, but all the more reason all of us should not be leveraging our lifestyles so much that we cannot afford to loose our jobs.
I know this is harsh but part of the reason people are abused at work is they allow themselves to be.
Walk away man, the stress of this could cause a heart attack.. it happens!
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If someone refuses to put something in writing, I send them an email "dear so-and-so, as per our discussion of <date> (list others in meeting if anyone else was there), contrary to my physician's instructions, you have refused to assign me a work shift that starts after 8 am or offer a flexible work schedule."
If they send a return email, great. If they respond orally, then you create another email to document your understanding of the discussion.
Also, s/he can check the laws in your start about if you can tape a conversation without the other party's permission.
In any contest, a paper trail helps.
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I'm really rooting for you. Posting so I can be notified of what I hope will be a reply from op saying he finally broke free.
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I still do not understand why you keep on staying...
and (again being direct), no one benefits from playing the victim (age, etc) - if you dislike them that much just LEAVE! if you do not want to leave then may be you are not disliking them that much ... make up your mind and take action, stop making excuses.
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I understand your wanting the company to have to change its ways. Any chance that involving local media or making some posts on social media might generate some attention to the problem?
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You know what you are retiring from - but do you have something that you are retiring TO?
Think about how to spend your time, how to research for new hobbies or how to volunteer.
Do you like to travel, exercise or read?
There are excellent books available to help to overcome the "one more year syndrome".
Like Ralph Warner's "Get a life" or Ernie Zelinski’s "How To Retire Happy, Wild, and Free".
Lots of brain food in both.
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I have to agree.
The whole idea in becoming FIRED is to be free from stress. Why would you do this to yourself? Those company lawyers could turn on you and start making threats of frivolous lawsuits on YOU! The costs to defend yourself could seriously hurt your ER'd status, they don't have to win!
Just how Monsanto drives little farmers out of business come to think of it. They got a much bigger stick than you have... Don't poke the sleeping bear!
AS to them treating your colleagues badly.. Yes that would annoy me too, but all the more reason all of us should not be leveraging our lifestyles so much that we cannot afford to loose our jobs.
I know this is harsh but part of the reason people are abused at work is they allow themselves to be.
Walk away man, the stress of this could cause a heart attack.. it happens!
I have voluntarily and non-voluntarily left shitty jobs, and all I can say is it's always turned out all-right. I have more-than-once asked myself about putting up a fight, but in the end former employers can always lawyer up and cause you much heartache, stress, and financial trauma. I just don't think it's worth it. If you didn't have the money saved that you do, you might need to put up a fight. But you can cut yourself loose -- no strings attached. Be proud of the freedom you've achieved. You don't need them. That place is like a bad boyfriend/girlfriend. Kick 'em to the curb.
One thing I had to work on was getting over the sense that I was not "fighting back" when I was being screwed over. I was letting this hold me back from walking away. Eventually I realized that I was just one small cog in a very dysfunctional wheel. My staying or going -- despite what anyone said -- had little impact on the outcome. So, going was best for me and I went.
I also believe that in my situation I was on the front end of bigger changes that were afoot. My whole department was cut, but we got off better than most (good severance, placement counseling, etcetera). Within a year the place was totally turned on its head and it was ugly. Several former employees actually wrote an expose in an independent newspaper. I was like, "Was it worth it?" At the time I had moved on. Life was already much better.
I would encourage you to think about the health and happiness you are depleting by staying there. As I've approached mid-life and more financial security (although technically not FIRE) I scrutinize how I spend my time. There are so many things that aren't worth my time and I just won't do them anymore.
Cut yourself free. Do not let resentment, anger, fear or any other sort of bad feeling tether you down. Once you're done, let it go. By all rational financial calculations you can do this, but my advice is to do the health side of the equation and consider that too.
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Eventually I realized that I was just one small cog in a very dysfunctional wheel. My staying or going -- despite what anyone said -- had little impact on the outcome. So, going was best for me and I went.
I would encourage you to think about the health and happiness you are depleting by staying there. As I've approached mid-life and more financial security (although technically not FIRE) I scrutinize how I spend my time. There are so many things that aren't worth my time and I just won't do them anymore.
I am also rooting for you to resign. I too was in a toxic situation, although less toxic then you describe yours, it was very detrimental to my health. Insomnia, anxiety, migraines and finally panic attacks forced me to quit since my body was telling me that I couldn't do it any more. My health improved immediately upon quitting. I came off anxiety meds, I cut my BP meds in half and now I can sleep. I was also in health care (RN) and of course I found it shocking how evil hospitals and healthcare workers can be. If you stay longer it is not going to make it any better for your coworkers. The company can and will screw everybody over. I would give as little notice as possible and get on with your life.
And speaking from experience, it has taken a long time to detox from a dreadful workplace. I retired last fall and feel like I am just about done detoxing. The earlier you start the earlier you can get on with life. Good luck.
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I'm also waiting for the magic thread when you finally come and write that you said enough was enough and you walk out for the very last time. I can almost feel your relief for you!
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.....
I was thinking. A new employee can be had for 25-28k less than us veterans. Thats significant. What if I approached someone, HR etc., and propose a deal. I'll leave voluntarily, unlock their 25-28k savings, but I get something out of the deal. I don't know exactly what maybe Healthcare for a while or x weeks pay. Then I'll feel like they didn't get away with something. What's the chance of this succeeding? Is it worth a shot? What should I ask for? They only can say no.
At work today, an excellent PharmD announced she was leaving. Great worker, just had enough. They treated her like shit and when she told them she was leaving - they had the nerve to ask her to stay longer than her notice required because they were short workers. She said no and they took it hard. I'd say over the last year we had at least 15 people quit (not all pharmacists). Hopefully in the near future I'd be #16.
Well, dude, this situation seems to me to present you with an excellent situation to negotiate a severance package that suits you. Go to your bosses and HR, and say, "I see from SO AND SO leaving that more experienced people are leaving in a way that leaves the organization high and dry. To give you added assurance as to my reliability, I am willing to commit to BLANK (staying on three more months? one month? six months? working post retirement one day a week? Whatever you choose...) in exchange for your agreeing to giving me a severance package that includes one year of health insurance coverage and *** weeks' pay." YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE HERE. What you should ask for depends entirely on your personal situation. Be prepared to initially propose far more than you'd settle for, so that you have some room to negotiate. If you want to up the ante, you can make some slight mention of your observing over the past few years that older pharms seem to be leaving in much greater numbers, and that you too feel that pressure. As another poster mentioned, it's crucial to get these communications IN WRITING, and confirming all such communications via email is an excellent way to proceed. Go for it!
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My mother was in a similar situation. For her the issue wasn't the job in particular but the environment. She just couldn't imagine not working (I know, I know). She engineered a move to another company for lower hours, stress and a better job. My father on the other hand loves what he does and will never retire (and for my mother's sanity, shouldn't).
They are currently have a saving rate of 75% and savings over 100x yearly expenses and own property in a sunny tropical locale; some people just can't simply retire - its a mind set, they just need to work 60 hours a week.
(My 4x savings just looks sad right now.)
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I'm going to guess that what you are really struggling with is the obligation/guilt towards your other coworkers and how they would cope if you left, and also how they are getting screwed. This seems like it's related to your self-identity as a part of the team, someone who is responsible, etc.
It may help to do two things: one, give them the info you found on labor law, contacts for labor lawyers etc. This way, you are helping them if they need/want to pursue legal action (or just be aware of their rights) but you are not fighting their fight for them. Two, go forward with your family trips. You do not know if this trip will ever happen again and you will remember this for the rest of your life. If you get fired for this, you get FIRE'd and you don't have to make any agonizing decisions over staying or going or putting up with bullshit. If you feel comfortable talking to any coworkers about how you will be financially ok with this, that may also help them in the long term.
Management sometimes has to screw up a lot before they get it, and if they are willing to lose their human capital over stupid stuff then they will eventually be left with the crappiest workers. Which is not a great way to run a business. And also, not your problem. You are standing in rising river, and you can't stop it yourself. But you can throw a few life jackets to people close to you and get out before you drown.
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Please retire and enjoy your life.
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Francis, I hope you haven't been posting because you FIREd and went to the Cape. Please share an update!
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80x expenses saved and wondering why you can't retire? Really? It's all in your head, retire already!
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FI, horrible workplace yet I stay. Why?
Well, you could compare it to a squirrel.
It's always stashing nuts. When it doesn't have them, it gets frantic. When it has a big stash, it gets scared of losing it. It wants-wants-wants... It wants to control its environment and ensure its survival. Its whole life is run by it.
Your inner squirrel keeps collecting nuts, and already has a stash big enough, but keeps collecting them just in case. Maybe it's time to make friends with your inner squirrel (ego) and move on?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2893412451_a8d15a5ff4.jpg)
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Quit. I understand, believe me.
Last December I was off work for surgery. Work had been a rollcoaster for years but lately had plummeted to new lows. Soul sucking, hand wringing, drinking too much after a stressful day, sleeping pills to sleep at night. At home recovering from surgery, as the date drew closer to return to work I started to panic about going back to that hell hole. Every night my husband would come home from work to find me crying on the couch. I was starting the countdown on the days until I return. He was the one who suggested that I retire now. Literally I would ask over and over and over, "really? is it possible? I can retire? You mean I never have to go back there?" I could not wrap my head around it.
I am 56 and I planned to work until 60. It just went against everything in my work ethic, upbringing whatever to "bail" 4 years early. I just about drove my husband crazy asking him repeatedly "is it possible, really? really? give up a "good" government job? You mean I don't have to work 4 more years?"
Finally, as the day grew closer to return to work after surgery, I decided that I won't make a decision now I will wait and see how I feel after I get back to work. Long story short, two days back to work and I was done.
FUCK you assholes! I typed up my letter giving two weeks notice and with outstanding vacation owing I only had to work 4 days. I spent three days dealing with hell, shit hitting the fan and taking a moment here and there to shred. Shred shred shred. Day 4 morning I handed in all my company property (badge, etc.) Before going to lunch with my co-workers I told my boss I won't be back after lunch. My heart was pounding at the elevator like I had robbed the bank, broke out of prision, escaped from being held hostage, got away with murder, you get the picture.
Not for a second have I regretted it. I am eating homecooked meals (made by moi), drinking is probably 1/3 of what I was drinking. No more sleeping pills. Gym 5 days a week.
I did feel guilty in the beginning that my husband is still working but now, not so much. The stress on him is far less, we are not rushing around trying to grocery shop, clean the house, yardwork etc. He loves it because he sees I am finally happy. I am putting my health first now instead of last. I have had two surgeries in two years and have a few other medical issues that need attention.
I know it sounds crazy but I think I had PTSD (mild). The first couple of weeks I apparently was crying, shouting and screaming in my sleep. It seems insane now and it was only last month.
FU money is the truth. I get up when I want. I go to bed when I want and in between I do what I want.
I know it sounds arrogant but on a beautiful day like today, I was sitting out in the backyard reading a book with a coffee thinking how great life is now and "I am far too rich to put up with their bullshit"
You sound like my kind of people. I'm not FIRE yet, but close. My response to most things I don't like -- either to myself or in the presence of my husband, is EXACTLY your last line.
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Why do you let them dictate vacation days to you? What is this strange power they hold over you. Is it Stockholm syndrome?
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This thread is almost four months old. Francis, please tell us you have some progress to report! Madly hoping for your freedom and happiness.
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Hi everyone. Since several requested an update here it is. I appreciate the help of everyone here but I didn't post more because I am still working. But with a different mindset. My goal still is to make it to early spring then leave work. I did not go with my friends to Cape Cod but did get to spend time with them in late August. Work is as bad as ever, make that its a spiral downward. Last week, two other pharmacists gave notice they are leaving. They can't wait to leave. The younger pharmacists say they would leave in a second if they could - but they can't with a mortgage, car payments etc. I have a lot of vacation saved up so I have been using it to reduce my workweek usually to three days. I'm really loving the extra days off. There is going to be an opening soon at another place that interests me. It would be only 1 or 2 days a week and I am very qualified for the position. I plan to apply for it when posted and that would be a reason to leave my current job before spring. I'm not actively pursuing the lawsuit route - some poster told me that the employer could turn things around and accuse me of things and I'd have to defend myself.
So why am I waiting to quit? I know financially I could RE now. But it makes more sense to me to to fill the 401K for 2016 and then pack it in. What I think about tho is it may be the best decision financially but is it really in my total best interests to wait? I'm losing time. But, see, this is a behavior that I've done my whole life - delay something I know I should do. Examples are I've driven cars way too long then bought a new car and wondered why I waited so long. Was in a relationship once that turned bad, still stayed in it for years then wondered why I did that. Why I waited so long to be free. It's just in my personality to wait I guess.
Well I had a great day today. Drove around in the sports car in beautiful fall weather. Am now making dinner with fresh vegetables from the local Farmers market.Wine in the refrig. As you might guess I was off today. And I'm off the next two days too. I'm kinda liking this free time.
FrancisinPa
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What I think about tho is it may be the best decision financially but is it really in my total best interests to wait? I'm losing time. But, see, this is a behavior that I've done my whole life - delay something I know I should do. Examples are I've driven cars way too long then bought a new car and wondered why I waited so long. Was in a relationship once that turned bad, still stayed in it for years then wondered why I did that. Why I waited so long to be free. It's just in my personality to wait I guess.
Hi Francis,
I don't think you should feel bad.
It's one thing to know academically and logically what you *should* do. But it's another thing to internalize it and make it what you *want* to do.
You'll do things your way and in your own time and feel comfortable about it regardless of what strangers on the Internet say.
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Gradually reducing your work week is a great way to ease into RE.
I'm glad you have found an arrangement that works for now, and wish you happiness no matter what you choose to do going forward.
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Francis, you're taking small steps in a positive direction, which is great! Keep using up your vacation to get yourself more days off right now... You totally deserve it and it will ease you into not being at work as much (or at all). Good luck on the new PT job, I hope you get it. Since you know you have a habit of procrastinating positive changes, try to push yourself just a little more than you normally would... Enough to get you a little out of your comfort zone and to challenge you. Striving to reach a better place is worth the small amount of discomfort.
Continuing to root for you!
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Francis, thank you for posting an update. Too often advice is asked for and given and nothing more is heard, so it is great to see you doing well.
It seems to me that you are seeing yourself and your situation pretty clearly now, and doing what seems best to you in your circumstances, which is the best that any of us can do. Congratulations.
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Also glad you posted an update. I'll keep watching the thread to see how things go.
Btw, your day driving the sports car and going to the farmers market sounds pretty good to me :)
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Sounds like you have a good plan! I hope everything works out well!
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Glad to see an update, Francis! We're rooting for you!
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You have taken an action. You have set a date. Good for you. Hope you get the part time gig!!!
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Francis:
Your work royally sucks. You have literally NO benefit to staying and filling up your 401k for 2016. NONE.
Here's my prescription (ha!) for you.
1) Send me half of your stash.
2) We both retire. You will still have 40x annual expenses. This is a SHITLOAD of margin to spare, not even considering the Social Security you will start drawing in 7-15 years.
Seriously. QUIT NOW.
Even after half your stash went away, you would easily have the finances to draw your living expenses forever, even if we start in the worst retirement date in the last 100+years.
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Francis:
Your work royally sucks. You have literally NO benefit to staying and filling up your 401k for 2016. NONE.
Here's my prescription (ha!) for you.
1) Send me half of your stash.
2) We both retire. You will still have 40x annual expenses. This is a SHITLOAD of margin to spare, not even considering the Social Security you will start drawing in 7-15 years.
Seriously. QUIT NOW.
Even after half your stash went away, you would easily have the finances to draw your living expenses forever, even if we start in the worst retirement date in the last 100+years.
I agree with both statements. If I weren't FI already, I would have proposed we split 80 times expenses three way ( and there would be $$$ for the three of us with a 4% withdrawal rate)
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I just read all four pages of this hoping to see that FrancisinPA would come back to report pulling the plug on the horrid job. But I understand going with your gut.
Sending warm fuzzies to you, Francis!
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Francis, you're 57 with 80x income in savings. I'm also 57 and just FIREd with 6x income in savings. Less than 10% of your stash, but enough to last until my $3k per month pensions kick in.
So why do you stay? You don't need the money! Are you a martyr-type personality? Or extreme protestant work-ethic? Go for the sports car and the wine and the freedom you so obviously enjoy. I did :)
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Francis, you're 57 with 80x income in savings. I'm also 57 and just FIREd with 6x income in savings. Less than 10% of your stash, but enough to last until my $3k per month pensions kick in.
So why do you stay? You don't need the money! Are you a martyr-type personality? Or extreme protestant work-ethic? Go for the sports car and the wine and the freedom you so obviously enjoy. I did :)
Hell, he can give me half the money and still have more than enough.
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Any update? Still at same employer?
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I soooo gotta see how this turns out.
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FrancisinPa do tell us what happened!
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Joining the crowd to add my vote for escaping. Hon, get out. You deserve better than this.
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would love to hear an update also, this thread has been really helpful for me,in a similar toxic work situation but nowhere near enough to retire - but some really good advice here, thanks.
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Quit. I understand, believe me.
Last December I was off work for surgery. Work had been a rollcoaster for years but lately had plummeted to new lows. Soul sucking, hand wringing, drinking too much after a stressful day, sleeping pills to sleep at night. At home recovering from surgery, as the date drew closer to return to work I started to panic about going back to that hell hole. Every night my husband would come home from work to find me crying on the couch. I was starting the countdown on the days until I return. He was the one who suggested that I retire now. Literally I would ask over and over and over, "really? is it possible? I can retire? You mean I never have to go back there?" I could not wrap my head around it.
I am 56 and I planned to work until 60. It just went against everything in my work ethic, upbringing whatever to "bail" 4 years early. I just about drove my husband crazy asking him repeatedly "is it possible, really? really? give up a "good" government job? You mean I don't have to work 4 more years?"
Finally, as the day grew closer to return to work after surgery, I decided that I won't make a decision now I will wait and see how I feel after I get back to work. Long story short, two days back to work and I was done.
FUCK you assholes! I typed up my letter giving two weeks notice and with outstanding vacation owing I only had to work 4 days. I spent three days dealing with hell, shit hitting the fan and taking a moment here and there to shred. Shred shred shred. Day 4 morning I handed in all my company property (badge, etc.) Before going to lunch with my co-workers I told my boss I won't be back after lunch. My heart was pounding at the elevator like I had robbed the bank, broke out of prision, escaped from being held hostage, got away with murder, you get the picture.
Not for a second have I regretted it. I am eating homecooked meals (made by moi), drinking is probably 1/3 of what I was drinking. No more sleeping pills. Gym 5 days a week.
I did feel guilty in the beginning that my husband is still working but now, not so much. The stress on him is far less, we are not rushing around trying to grocery shop, clean the house, yardwork etc. He loves it because he sees I am finally happy. I am putting my health first now instead of last. I have had two surgeries in two years and have a few other medical issues that need attention.
I know it sounds crazy but I think I had PTSD (mild). The first couple of weeks I apparently was crying, shouting and screaming in my sleep. It seems insane now and it was only last month.
FU money is the truth. I get up when I want. I go to bed when I want and in between I do what I want.
I know it sounds arrogant but on a beautiful day like today, I was sitting out in the backyard reading a book with a coffee thinking how great life is now and "I am far too rich to put up with their bullshit"
This, from page 1 of the thread, has been one of the best posts I have ever seen on this forum.
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+1 agreed. Great post there.
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Your best options:
1) Quit now
2) Start throwing your weight around. You are in a position of strength. You have the leverage to quit at any moment. Make the workplace what you want it to be and if they fire you so be it. Make it clear that your vacation schedule is non- negotiable.
I agree with #2
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Francis, did you quit? How did things play out?
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Francis, did you quit? How did things play out?
Paging @FrancisinPa
Not hopeful about a response, as FrancisinPa has no activity since may 2016
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Thanks @markbike528CBX it was probably a long-shot but as I'm in a period of transitioning away from work myself, I was curious!
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I just read all this and didn't get to find out how it ended. It's like someone ripped out the last page of a book. When you find yourself in a situation like Francis, you just need to imagine it's your mother in a terrible work environment with 80x expenses. What would you advise/demand that she do? Now follow your own advice.
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I was reading this hoping to find the end of the book as well -- so I'll write my own:
Francis FI'd and is enjoying life on the sun -- we'll just have to wait till that post card shows up from Zihuatanejo.
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Yep, I just read this whole thread and see no conclusion,
FrancisinPa last posted May 5, 2016.
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Yep, I just read this whole thread and see no conclusion,
FrancisinPa last posted May 5, 2016.
I also just read the whole thread, which doesn't have a climax. FrancisPa probably retired as planned in 2016.
What hit me is that his company threatened employees orally, but not in writing. My DH has learned that ever when you want to confront your employer with the way they treat you, you should put your phone on recording. No one will notice consciously that bring a phone to a meeting. It has saved DH in such a situation. If you later quote literally from that meeting, they know you have it recorded and they'll get nervous.
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Please post when you say FU and walk. I feel your pain and while not at 80x spending am definitely FI and still working. But I have some fun everyday because I meditate using "Fuck That" meditation every day.-Google it and laugh. Less than 120 days of work and out the door I will go with a song in my heart. My retire date is 0-120 days of work left and since they have been laying folks off I am hoping my snark gets me on the list. :). Work has a social aspect but that hourglass is glued to the table.
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I meditate using "Fuck That" meditation every day.-Google it and laugh.
Yep, the only meditation that works for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92i5m3tV5XY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92i5m3tV5XY)
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My DH has learned that ever when you want to confront your employer with the way they treat you, you should put your phone on recording. No one will notice consciously that bring a phone to a meeting. It has saved DH in such a situation. If you later quote literally from that meeting, they know you have it recorded and they'll get nervous.
The caveat being that you must be in a jurisdiction that has "one-party consent laws" for recording conversations or phone calls.
Some states have "two-party consent laws" so you can't surreptitiously record phone calls or conversations, otherwise you risk running afoul of wiretapping laws, which opens you up to litigation, fines and/or imprisonment.
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Thank you for the "fuck that" meditation video . . . may have just saved my sanity with it!
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on F that Meditation, I love the lines "If your thoughts drift back to the 3 ring $hit show of your life, that ok" and "Those soul sucking cockesuckers can't piss all over an inner purity like this." Cracks me up. It actually does work quite well. LOve the Onion article.
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WALLS ARE FUNNY. My husband and I reached FIRE last November, 2017. We live full-time in our motorhome while traveling, sold our house and 95% of stuff. I wrote this link specifically about a former coworker a few years older than me and more financially independent but work was his comfort zone (institutionalized). Thought its relevance might give you some perspective. https://RemovedLink
First post and you post a link to your blog?
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WALLS ARE FUNNY. My husband and I reached FIRE last November, 2017. We live full-time in our motorhome while traveling, sold our house and 95% of stuff. I wrote this link specifically about a former coworker a few years older than me and more financially independent but work was his comfort zone (institutionalized). Thought its relevance might give you some perspective. https://RemovedLink
First post and you post a link to your blog?
I was skeptical, but I clicked on the link and read through a lot of it. It was completely enjoyable and not monetized. Personally, I'd give her posting a link here a free pass. Her writing deserves a greater audience, and it's pretty on topic. They sold their house themselves which is pretty badass, and they bought a used RV after significant research, also quite badass. They took on some seasonal work and quit the jobs when they stopped being enjoyable - basically, they didn't like peddling shite, so they put their values first, also badass. I'd vote for the link to be restored, because it would be very useful for people trying to figure out what life after FIRE might look like.
Don't go away @Mrs. Ramble!