Author Topic: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?  (Read 4341 times)

infromsea

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Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« on: May 26, 2023, 12:11:58 PM »
I took a part time gig with the city, managing events at one of my favorite buildings in the area.

I get out of the house, get some mental stimulation, lots of exercise, meet new folks, attend events like comic con for free and get to roam all over a HUGE building with lots of sneaky sneaks and interesting aspects.

There will be LOTS of "hurry up and wait" time where I'm simply manning a station and keeping my ears on the radio and responding if issues arise.

Supervisor told me that on the really slow times (Say a prom is running upstairs and doesn't need anything as they have folks running it for the school and PD on station) that I am welcome to surf the net, watch netflix, do as I will.

I actually plan to use some of those hours to do another side gig (this gig knows I have that one), working on their website and social media etc. I bill that one by the hour and would only do it because I'm not good at being "at work" and not "working"....

I don't know that it matters but this income isn't really needed BUT, if I'm out of the house and "at work" I think it's easier to do the online gig while I'm "meat in the seat" at the gig that requires a physical presence. I use the income to buy beer, go out to eat more than I otherwise would, upgrade our vacations/airbnbs, and still have some left to stuff into VTSAX and VMRXX.

So, is this ethical? Any reason I shouldn't do this (get paid hourly for job x, doing job y "at same time")


Freedomin5

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2023, 02:39:08 PM »
I don’t see why not. You’re not shirking one job for the sake of the other. I’m sure if an emergency arose in the event managing job, you’d put down your computer and deal with the issue. It’s no different than using the free time at work to answer tenant emails if you own rentals, or check your bank accounts if you manage your own investments. If they told you that you could use your downtime however you wanted as long as you stayed in your office, then what’s it to them if you choose to use it for money-generating activities?

getsorted

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2023, 02:40:48 PM »
There are situations where I don't think this would be ethical, but your situation sounds fine. If you're welcome to watch Netflix, I don't think anyone could quibble with you doing something productive.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2023, 02:56:55 PM »
Is there anything in your employment contract against it?
Is it anything illegal?
Does it interfere with your ability to do your job for the city?
Is there a conflict of interest?  (I'm imagining things like someone paying your half the ticket price for you to sneak them into an event)

If no to all the above, then I don't think there's any problem with it.  My last job had a lot of down time, which I (sometimes) used to work on a side gig I was starting.  It didn't interfere with my 'real' job, so I don't feel any guilt about it.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2023, 06:56:47 PM »
If you are fulfilling all the expectations for your job and you have extra time to kill while on the job, I don't see anything unethical about using that time to make more money.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2023, 06:39:22 AM »
I worked the counter at a public golf course while I was going to college and taking calculus and physics classes. I asked the boss if I could study in-between customers. He said 'go ahead, sure'. I think the frequency of stop and starts actually helped me learn because I had to think about where I was in the material and how I got there over and over.

GuitarStv

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2023, 06:28:32 AM »
If you have to write "work" with quotes then I'm pretty sure you already know the answer.  :P

BlueHouse

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2023, 04:01:25 PM »
This is called "double-dipping" or "dual employment and is not legal on Federal contracts.   You are not allowed to receive pay from two sources for the same hours of the same day. 

Most governments have the same restrictions.  It's a pretty big deal, so I would make sure to get an exemption in writing if you plan to do this. 

Retire-Canada

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2023, 07:29:06 AM »
So, is this ethical? Any reason I shouldn't do this (get paid hourly for job x, doing job y "at same time")

If you were told you could surf the net/watch netflix during quiet times I think it's 100% fine to use that time productively instead.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2023, 08:08:53 AM »
The last part of my working journey towards FIRE I worked two contracts at the same time. Both clients were aware of the possibility of me doing so, but I didn't get into the nitty gritty of how the logistics worked with either of them. Both clients were fully satisfied with the results I provided for the $$ I invoiced. I was happy with the higher overall income so I could save/invest more to hit my FIRE target faster.

BlueHouse

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2023, 10:34:53 AM »
The last part of my working journey towards FIRE I worked two contracts at the same time. Both clients were aware of the possibility of me doing so, but I didn't get into the nitty gritty of how the logistics worked with either of them. Both clients were fully satisfied with the results I provided for the $$ I invoiced. I was happy with the higher overall income so I could save/invest more to hit my FIRE target faster.

I've also worked multiple contracts during the same time period. But never for the same hours of the same day.  It's an important distinction.   If this is what you meant, sorry for the confusion. 

Retire-Canada

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2023, 11:08:24 AM »
I've also worked multiple contracts during the same time period. But never for the same hours of the same day.  It's an important distinction.   If this is what you meant, sorry for the confusion.

I would tell each client what scope I would get done in a given period of time and I billed for that period of time....say 40hrs x $100/hr = $4000. If I was twice as efficient and got that scope done in 20hrs I still billed for the planned 40hrs and I might do work on the second contract during the 20hrs I freed up by working more efficiently. Of course it could theoretically go the other way. If I spent 40hrs on a report that was planned for 40hrs and I deleted the report I was working on before submitting it I would put another 40hrs into it for a total of 80hrs and still bill for 40hrs.

So depending on how you want to account for planned/billed vs. actual working hours I billed for some of the "same" hours twice.

Ultimately I worked for both clients for years. They could easily assess how much scope/work they were getting for a given $$ value and were happy to keep contracting with me. They also both knew the other client existed, but I did not discuss any specifics of each contract with the other client.


Ron Scott

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2023, 02:31:45 PM »
Yes, this is clearly unethical. Dancing around it doesn’t change the fact.

BlueHouse

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2023, 04:57:05 PM »
I've also worked multiple contracts during the same time period. But never for the same hours of the same day.  It's an important distinction.   If this is what you meant, sorry for the confusion.

I would tell each client what scope I would get done in a given period of time and I billed for that period of time....say 40hrs x $100/hr = $4000. If I was twice as efficient and got that scope done in 20hrs I still billed for the planned 40hrs and I might do work on the second contract during the 20hrs I freed up by working more efficiently. Of course it could theoretically go the other way. If I spent 40hrs on a report that was planned for 40hrs and I deleted the report I was working on before submitting it I would put another 40hrs into it for a total of 80hrs and still bill for 40hrs.

So depending on how you want to account for planned/billed vs. actual working hours I billed for some of the "same" hours twice.

Ultimately I worked for both clients for years. They could easily assess how much scope/work they were getting for a given $$ value and were happy to keep contracting with me. They also both knew the other client existed, but I did not discuss any specifics of each contract with the other client.

Not sure how it works in Canada, but in the US, there are defined contract types such as Firm-Fixed Price, Cost Reimbursable, Time & Materials, Fixed-Price Labor hour, etc.  What you've described above is only permissible here on a Firm-fixed price type of contract.  You contract to perform a very specific set of tasks for a fixed price.  If you can do it faster, great...you profit more.  If you can't, then you lose out and eat the cost.  Every other contract type requires that the contractor report the number of hours worked and then they are paid for those hours, either at a fixed labor price, or on a cost-reimbursement agreement.    Time & Materials contracts are the only ones that don't give the government the ability to open your accounting books and inspect how you're billing and what your real costs are. 

You quoted "same" hours, so I'm not sure whether you truly mean the same hours or if you're saying you completed work on two different contracts during the same billing period, which could be perfectly fine. 

Consider this:  I worked multiple contracts for the same client, but the funding sources were different government agencies.  Some days I would work 5 hours on Program A and 5 hours on Program B.  If I billed that, I had to have actually worked a total of 10 hours, not 8 hours. If something benefited both programs, then I pro-rated my billings between the programs, I couldn't "double-dip".  I hope that makes sense. 

Timecard fraud is taken very seriously on US Federal programs.  please be careful with your future.

 

Metalcat

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2023, 05:35:53 PM »
It doesn't matter if it's ethical, it matters if it's legal.

Take a look at your contracts, or better yet, get a legal opinion.


funobtainium

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2024, 10:40:26 AM »
I would think it's fine as long as the two employers aren't competitors and you're completing all of the paid tasks as directed.

Metalcat

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2024, 12:26:43 PM »
I would think it's fine as long as the two employers aren't competitors and you're completing all of the paid tasks as directed.

Not if either employer contractually requires you to dedicate certain time to them or if they're entitled to your work product.

I'm *extremely* finicky about who owns work product in my contracts because that can lead to serious litigation.

BlueHouse

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2024, 02:07:25 PM »
A cop in DC recently got busted working private security while getting paid as a DC cop.  Another was working as a cashier at a supermarket while on duty.  Not much difference between what the OP described and what is happening here.  Cops no longer "walk beats".  They sit in their cars and wait to be told where to respond.  So please tell me what's different?

Ron Scott

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2024, 08:27:23 AM »
I would think it's fine as long as the two employers aren't competitors and you're completing all of the paid tasks as directed.

Absolutely not.

Example: The entity that pays you is entitled to fair productivity. If you can get all the work your boss gives you done in 5 hours and you’re paid for 8 your boss isn’t doing her job and you should tell her. Spending the other 3 hours doing work for someone else is theft of service. This is really simple people.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2024, 08:43:19 AM »
There is no way to accurately calculate it, but based on RS' perspective I would imagine MMM's Blog and these forums must account for many hundreds of millions of dollars in "stolen" time. It would be interesting to know how much.

bacchi

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2024, 09:02:50 AM »
I would think it's fine as long as the two employers aren't competitors and you're completing all of the paid tasks as directed.

Absolutely not.

Example: The entity that pays you is entitled to fair productivity. If you can get all the work your boss gives you done in 5 hours and you’re paid for 8 your boss isn’t doing her job and you should tell her. Spending the other 3 hours doing work for someone else is theft of service. This is really simple people.

If you're an hourly employee, this is true. If you're an exempt employee (in the US), it's not true. Exempt employees can literally check into work, read an email, leave work, and still get paid for the full day. This is known as the "touch the wall" rule and it stems from the fact that the opposite is true -- exempt employees can and do work more than 8 hours/day but only get paid for 8.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2024, 11:07:34 AM »
I would think it's fine as long as the two employers aren't competitors and you're completing all of the paid tasks as directed.

Absolutely not.

Example: The entity that pays you is entitled to fair productivity. If you can get all the work your boss gives you done in 5 hours and you’re paid for 8 your boss isn’t doing her job and you should tell her. Spending the other 3 hours doing work for someone else is theft of service. This is really simple people.

In the OP's case they are paid largely for being present and available to work as needed for their whole shift, with the expectation that they won't have actual work tasks to do the entire time. Their boss literally gave them permission to watch Netflix for part of the day when things are slow, so it's not as if the boss is unaware the employee is idle and would assign additional tasks if only they knew. In this very specific case I see nothing wrong with picking up quick paid tasks online instead of watching Netflix.

flyingaway

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2024, 11:13:48 AM »
Working two jobs at once in pos-FIRE?

Ron Scott

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2024, 02:36:08 PM »
I would think it's fine as long as the two employers aren't competitors and you're completing all of the paid tasks as directed.

Absolutely not.

Example: The entity that pays you is entitled to fair productivity. If you can get all the work your boss gives you done in 5 hours and you’re paid for 8 your boss isn’t doing her job and you should tell her. Spending the other 3 hours doing work for someone else is theft of service. This is really simple people.

In the OP's case they are paid largely for being present and available to work as needed for their whole shift, with the expectation that they won't have actual work tasks to do the entire time. Their boss literally gave them permission to watch Netflix for part of the day when things are slow, so it's not as if the boss is unaware the employee is idle and would assign additional tasks if only they knew. In this very specific case I see nothing wrong with picking up quick paid tasks online instead of watching Netflix.

You have to read the post I was responding to.

BlueHouse

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2024, 10:28:30 AM »

In the OP's case they are paid largely for being present and available to work as needed for their whole shift, with the expectation that they won't have actual work tasks to do the entire time. Their boss literally gave them permission to watch Netflix for part of the day when things are slow, so it's not as if the boss is unaware the employee is idle and would assign additional tasks if only they knew. In this very specific case I see nothing wrong with picking up quick paid tasks online instead of watching Netflix.

This is a qualifier that wasn't initially included.  If I were the employer, I would want to be the one to decide if it were okay.  Every time.  And I would say no.  Every time.  Because of where that could lead.   

Ron Scott

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2024, 08:13:45 PM »

In the OP's case they are paid largely for being present and available to work as needed for their whole shift, with the expectation that they won't have actual work tasks to do the entire time. Their boss literally gave them permission to watch Netflix for part of the day when things are slow, so it's not as if the boss is unaware the employee is idle and would assign additional tasks if only they knew. In this very specific case I see nothing wrong with picking up quick paid tasks online instead of watching Netflix.

This is a qualifier that wasn't initially included.  If I were the employer, I would want to be the one to decide if it were okay.  Every time.  And I would say no.  Every time.  Because of where that could lead.   

Amen. Some seem to think flushing money down the toilet is a reasonable play in capitalism. That dog don’t hunt. 

GilesMM

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2024, 10:31:55 PM »
I knew a huge fraction of the employees at the megacorp I was at, including higher level managers, spent part of their work day managing their personal investments and real estate (via company internet and hardware) at the expense of doing their job.  It was accepted and normally not done too flagrantly.  Investing and daily stock market fluctuations were a frequent topic of hallway conversation.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2024, 07:36:24 AM »
I knew a huge fraction of the employees at the megacorp I was at, including higher level managers, spent part of their work day managing their personal investments and real estate (via company internet and hardware) at the expense of doing their job.  It was accepted and normally not done too flagrantly.  Investing and daily stock market fluctuations were a frequent topic of hallway conversation.

If the moral standard is that you must work at full possible productivity for every paid moment of your day or you are "stealing" time then I don't know anyone who has not "stolen" significant time. I had not heard that as an expectation in a discussion until this thread. Most of the people posting to these forums during weekday working hours are stealing time under that framework.

For the people that I have managed I don't care one bit how they spend their time. I care about the results achieved. If you deliver me above average results for the situation in question you can manage your stock portfolio at work, chat with your GF/BF, take an extended lunch break, go home early, etc... 



« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 08:01:32 AM by Retire-Canada »

GuitarStv

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2024, 08:00:03 AM »
I knew a huge fraction of the employees at the megacorp I was at, including higher level managers, spent part of their work day managing their personal investments and real estate (via company internet and hardware) at the expense of doing their job.  It was accepted and normally not done too flagrantly.  Investing and daily stock market fluctuations were a frequent topic of hallway conversation.

If the moral standard is that you must work at full possible productivity for every paid moment of your day or you are "stealing" time then I don't know anyone who has not "stolen" significant time. I had not heard that as an expectation in a discussion until this thread. Most of the people posting to these forums during weekday working hours are stealing time under that framework.

For the people that I have managed I don't care one bit how they spend their time. I care about the results achieved. If you deliver me above average results for the situation in question you can manage your stocks portfolio at work, chat with your GF/BF, take an extended lunch break, go home early, etc...

I think this is a fair way to approach things.

If someone can work two jobs simultaneously and always have their stuff done well and on time for both jobs I don't see an issue.  Kinda feels like searching for a unicorn though - in experience I've never run across anyone who was able to do this (and only a few people who believed that they could and then failed spectacularly).

Metalcat

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2024, 08:40:25 AM »
I knew a huge fraction of the employees at the megacorp I was at, including higher level managers, spent part of their work day managing their personal investments and real estate (via company internet and hardware) at the expense of doing their job.  It was accepted and normally not done too flagrantly.  Investing and daily stock market fluctuations were a frequent topic of hallway conversation.

If the moral standard is that you must work at full possible productivity for every paid moment of your day or you are "stealing" time then I don't know anyone who has not "stolen" significant time. I had not heard that as an expectation in a discussion until this thread. Most of the people posting to these forums during weekday working hours are stealing time under that framework.

For the people that I have managed I don't care one bit how they spend their time. I care about the results achieved. If you deliver me above average results for the situation in question you can manage your stocks portfolio at work, chat with your GF/BF, take an extended lunch break, go home early, etc...

I think this is a fair way to approach things.

If someone can work two jobs simultaneously and always have their stuff done well and on time for both jobs I don't see an issue.  Kinda feels like searching for a unicorn though - in experience I've never run across anyone who was able to do this (and only a few people who believed that they could and then failed spectacularly).

I think this perspective is largely driven by the kind of work you do.

There are plenty of jobs where the work product isn't reports or code that take a roughly given amount of time. There are plenty of jobs where performance between professionals ranges dramatically and where one can outproduce another in less than half the time.

The range of work product out there is way too broad to generalize that no one can do this. Maybe in your line of work no one can, but in mine, a lot of the people who worked fewer hours were radically out performing the people working 60+.

BlueHouse

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2024, 08:42:59 AM »
I knew a huge fraction of the employees at the megacorp I was at, including higher level managers, spent part of their work day managing their personal investments and real estate (via company internet and hardware) at the expense of doing their job.  It was accepted and normally not done too flagrantly.  Investing and daily stock market fluctuations were a frequent topic of hallway conversation.

If the moral standard is that you must work at full possible productivity for every paid moment of your day or you are "stealing" time then I don't know anyone who has not "stolen" significant time. I had not heard that as an expectation in a discussion until this thread. Most of the people posting to these forums during weekday working hours are stealing time under that framework.

For the people that I have managed I don't care one bit how they spend their time. I care about the results achieved. If you deliver me above average results for the situation in question you can manage your stock portfolio at work, chat with your GF/BF, take an extended lunch break, go home early, etc...

I think a lot of non-work related activities are condoned at the discretion of the manager,  but never made into a company policy or spoken about publicly because the company has to maintain some way to enforce actions when they choose to.  Very similar to an HOA that doesn't enforce its own rules, until there is a problem neighbor.  Then the rule book comes out and they can document everything from an unweeded garden bed to the wrong color mailbox. 

Now if you put what you just wrote in employment contracts, or even in an email to these employees, I would be quite shocked. 

GilesMM

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2024, 08:57:01 AM »
I knew a huge fraction of the employees at the megacorp I was at, including higher level managers, spent part of their work day managing their personal investments and real estate (via company internet and hardware) at the expense of doing their job.  It was accepted and normally not done too flagrantly.  Investing and daily stock market fluctuations were a frequent topic of hallway conversation.

If the moral standard is that you must work at full possible productivity for every paid moment of your day or you are "stealing" time then I don't know anyone who has not "stolen" significant time. I had not heard that as an expectation in a discussion until this thread. Most of the people posting to these forums during weekday working hours are stealing time under that framework.

For the people that I have managed I don't care one bit how they spend their time. I care about the results achieved. If you deliver me above average results for the situation in question you can manage your stock portfolio at work, chat with your GF/BF, take an extended lunch break, go home early, etc...


Quite generous.  Have you heard about Amazon warehouse workers? Even bathroom breaks are an issue, apparently.


https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/18/minnesota_warehouse_quotas/

Retire-Canada

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2024, 09:29:26 AM »
Now if you put what you just wrote in employment contracts, or even in an email to these employees, I would be quite shocked.

For sure that's never written down and I would not go out of my way to even communicate it. That said anyone who has worked for or with me can figure out very quickly that I am results oriented and I do not micromanage unless forced to. It's the sort of thing that if you can't figure it out you are likely not a high enough performer for it to apply to you anyway.

Back when I actually went to an office [I've been WFH long before COVID] my standard request from my boss/client was a lockable door and a sofa so I could sleep during the day...when they were paying me. I was never denied including fresh out of university and it became pretty clear to me that if you were a high performer nobody cared about the details if you made people above you look good. Especially in environments where pay/charge rates were constrained in some way by contracts.


GuitarStv

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2024, 09:50:36 AM »
I knew a huge fraction of the employees at the megacorp I was at, including higher level managers, spent part of their work day managing their personal investments and real estate (via company internet and hardware) at the expense of doing their job.  It was accepted and normally not done too flagrantly.  Investing and daily stock market fluctuations were a frequent topic of hallway conversation.

If the moral standard is that you must work at full possible productivity for every paid moment of your day or you are "stealing" time then I don't know anyone who has not "stolen" significant time. I had not heard that as an expectation in a discussion until this thread. Most of the people posting to these forums during weekday working hours are stealing time under that framework.

For the people that I have managed I don't care one bit how they spend their time. I care about the results achieved. If you deliver me above average results for the situation in question you can manage your stocks portfolio at work, chat with your GF/BF, take an extended lunch break, go home early, etc...

I think this is a fair way to approach things.

If someone can work two jobs simultaneously and always have their stuff done well and on time for both jobs I don't see an issue.  Kinda feels like searching for a unicorn though - in experience I've never run across anyone who was able to do this (and only a few people who believed that they could and then failed spectacularly).

I think this perspective is largely driven by the kind of work you do.

There are plenty of jobs where the work product isn't reports or code that take a roughly given amount of time. There are plenty of jobs where performance between professionals ranges dramatically and where one can outproduce another in less than half the time.

The range of work product out there is way too broad to generalize that no one can do this. Maybe in your line of work no one can, but in mine, a lot of the people who worked fewer hours were radically out performing the people working 60+.

The software work that I do there are plenty of people working 35-40 hours who outperform those who work 60+.  But those who work 60+ hours typically are fucking around and just providing asses in seats to impress management or escape their families.  With a job that requires creative thinking/problem solving I am convinced that there is a physical limit as to how much can be done by the average person in any given day.

If you're very smart and working in a junior position it could maybe be done.  I don't know anyone who could do full time software development in a senior position at two different companies during the same working hours and do good work though.  There's a tremendous amount of stuff you have to keep floating around in the back of your head all the time (policies and development procedures, deep understanding of the actual architecture of the software being worked on to efficiently and effectively analyze bugs/make large scale changes, attend all meetings and perform meaningful reviews of other people's code, and work well with the different corporate software being used - version control stuff/planning stuff/development environments and tools).

Retire-Canada

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2024, 09:52:29 AM »
Quite generous.  Have you heard about Amazon warehouse workers? Even bathroom breaks are an issue, apparently.

That's sad. I'm fortunate to never have had to work in an environment like that.

Metalcat

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2024, 11:52:04 AM »
I knew a huge fraction of the employees at the megacorp I was at, including higher level managers, spent part of their work day managing their personal investments and real estate (via company internet and hardware) at the expense of doing their job.  It was accepted and normally not done too flagrantly.  Investing and daily stock market fluctuations were a frequent topic of hallway conversation.

If the moral standard is that you must work at full possible productivity for every paid moment of your day or you are "stealing" time then I don't know anyone who has not "stolen" significant time. I had not heard that as an expectation in a discussion until this thread. Most of the people posting to these forums during weekday working hours are stealing time under that framework.

For the people that I have managed I don't care one bit how they spend their time. I care about the results achieved. If you deliver me above average results for the situation in question you can manage your stocks portfolio at work, chat with your GF/BF, take an extended lunch break, go home early, etc...

I think this is a fair way to approach things.

If someone can work two jobs simultaneously and always have their stuff done well and on time for both jobs I don't see an issue.  Kinda feels like searching for a unicorn though - in experience I've never run across anyone who was able to do this (and only a few people who believed that they could and then failed spectacularly).

I think this perspective is largely driven by the kind of work you do.

There are plenty of jobs where the work product isn't reports or code that take a roughly given amount of time. There are plenty of jobs where performance between professionals ranges dramatically and where one can outproduce another in less than half the time.

The range of work product out there is way too broad to generalize that no one can do this. Maybe in your line of work no one can, but in mine, a lot of the people who worked fewer hours were radically out performing the people working 60+.

The software work that I do there are plenty of people working 35-40 hours who outperform those who work 60+.  But those who work 60+ hours typically are fucking around and just providing asses in seats to impress management or escape their families.  With a job that requires creative thinking/problem solving I am convinced that there is a physical limit as to how much can be done by the average person in any given day.

If you're very smart and working in a junior position it could maybe be done.  I don't know anyone who could do full time software development in a senior position at two different companies during the same working hours and do good work though.  There's a tremendous amount of stuff you have to keep floating around in the back of your head all the time (policies and development procedures, deep understanding of the actual architecture of the software being worked on to efficiently and effectively analyze bugs/make large scale changes, attend all meetings and perform meaningful reviews of other people's code, and work well with the different corporate software being used - version control stuff/planning stuff/development environments and tools).

So...you're just confirming exactly what I said, that your particular line of work doesn't make it possible, but that doesn't negate my point that in other lines of work it's very possible.

You made the statement as though it's a general rule that it cannot be done, I made the point that it's job-specific.

I my line of work the folks who were producing less weren't fucking around, they just weren't as efficient as the high producers.

I worked half the hours of my colleagues and produced more, and they definitely worked harder than I did.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Ethical to "work" two jobs at once?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2024, 12:25:07 PM »
I've pretty much spent my entire career managing projects, operating systems, and doing some creative work. All of those activities lend themselves well to optimization and reduced effective workloads.

I mean get a good team together, train them well, give them all the resources they need, reduce the systematic drag on their efforts, empower them to make most decisions, give them a solid high level plan and get the f**k out of the way. They'll do all the work well themselves and folks in my position are really just there to prepare them for success and occasionally get involved if something unusual happens that needs some course correction. A lot of the time I feel like a first aid kit or AED great to have around in case of an emergency, but they just sit there doing nothing most of the time. Not that I am complaining about the not doing anything part most of the time.

It also helps when subsequent projects look very similar so you can recycle a lot of the same overhead preparation/materials and only have to do a small portion of novel work.

There was a time when I felt a lot of imposter syndrome vibes, but as decades rolled by and everyone I worked for/with was happy again and again I just accepted things for what they were.

If I was ambitious I could have tried climbing the food chain to have more and more teams/projects under my control until I was tapped out for time/skill/stress. My inner slacker was pretty happy with a low stress life while making a lot of $/hour worked even if the total $/year was not eye popping.

Someone in this thread mentioned the OE Sub-Reddit. I spent some time there reading posts. There have lots of good info for folks wanting to OE including what sorts of roles/contracts fit best.

 

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