Author Topic: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America  (Read 45093 times)

spartana

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #550 on: January 19, 2022, 11:28:15 AM »
MMM - Retires on $25k/year with his family of 3 and shows us how we can enjoy an awesome FIRE life on less. Does some enjoyable work because he wants to.

FS - Tells us how he failed at FIRE because $200k/year for his family of 3 is way way to little for anyone to live on.  Goes back to work because he has to.

Yep they're exactly the same.

Since @Skyhigh equates RE with nothingness I assume he considers having the extra time to spend with his 6 kids, his spouse, his friends and other family, caring for elderly parents, hobbies, adventures, supporting causes, helping others, etc... all as "nothing". Sad. Too bad he can't find joy and fulfillment in those things as I thing he'd realize his value as a human is so much more than his career accolades.

And FWIW quit trying to pigeonhole people based on what your perception of FIREd people are to you. Read the forums and you will likely find out you are wrong and we are a varied bunch.

LD_TAndK

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #551 on: January 20, 2022, 06:32:45 AM »
Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

Quote from: retired_syd
If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.

Highly recommend people read the article and all the comments. They're talking past one another but I found it enlightening to what's happening here.

Also, Financial Samurai sells a $97 e-book??? Sleazy self-help guru vibes to the max.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #552 on: January 20, 2022, 08:58:48 AM »
Severity of FIRE

I have a college friend who achieved fire at 45 years of age. Throughout his adult life he had been married twice and experienced the normal ups and downs. When I last spoke with him he was engaged to a beautiful intelligent accomplished person. His construction business was taking off incredibly. He had built himself a very nice house in an upper middle-class neighborhood. He had finally found success and was on his way.

I lost touch with him for a time. I tried reaching out via his cell phone to learn that it was disconnected. I sent a letter to his home, and it was returned. He had disappeared from the Internet. I couldn't find his business license, address, or any other evidence that he still existed. Eventually, I sent a letter to his sister and she sent a reply.

It turns out that my dear friend had done something dramatic soon after I last spoke with him. For reasons only known to him, he broke off his engagement, closed his booming business, and systematically sold off all of his assets. He choose to FIRE in a halfway house located in one of the desert states far from his home. Every month $500 is auto drafted from his account and sent to the organization that maintains a bunk bed, food, and some medical oversight.

He spends his days wandering the streets intoxicated. At night he returns to the halfway house. Why he chose this life I will probably never know. Clearly his plan was/is to consume his days in this manner until he has expired. He chose an alcoholic version of FIRE instead of his blooming full and successful life.

Any one of us could achieve FIRE right now. The question is what is your FIRE life going to look like? How much risk are you willing to accept? How long will it last? What is the level of severity are you willing to accept or be exposed to? I'm certain that my friend does not plan to live very long in retirement. He chose a reduced duration of his retirement through his lifestyle choices. The tragedy of my lost friend is something I will probably never understand.

People achieve FIRE all the time. It is mostly about the sacrifices.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #553 on: January 20, 2022, 09:06:07 AM »


I believe that MMM retired on $25,000 long ago, however, how can you believe that he isn't earning much more now through his website, appearances, and accomplishments? He is not a Buddhist monk. The same with FS. They both hold control over their time but they both clearly work.

The guy who started the tiny house movement began his blog from a 150 square foot "house" built upon a flatbed trailer but ended up moving into a regular home because living in a tiny house was an unsustainable model. He got married and they started having children. Lives change. Harsh FIRE plans can not.

lhamo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #554 on: January 20, 2022, 09:14:43 AM »
It makes my stomach turn that you would use a story like this solely to push your own twisted narrative of how awful FIRE is.

Your "friend" did not achieve FIRE.  He clearly had some kind of breakdown, and that was most likely rooted in some type of major trauma or pain that all of his "success" did not allow him to outrun.  Maybe if you had been a real friend to him, someone he could turn to to be truthful and vulnerable when he discovered that all his striving was not bringing him the happiness he desired, maybe then he could have found a different way out of his pain.  I wonder how much all of the praise you and others gave him for achieving the outward appearances of a "successful" person actually drove him to even deeper despair.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #555 on: January 20, 2022, 09:16:37 AM »


I know that you guys get frustrated with me due to my lack of responses. I only have perhaps 20 minutes in the morning before I have other things to focus on. My apologies.

charis

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #556 on: January 20, 2022, 09:20:09 AM »
Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire


matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #557 on: January 20, 2022, 09:39:24 AM »
Severity of FIRE

I have a college friend who achieved fire at 45 years of age. Throughout his adult life he had been married twice and experienced the normal ups and downs. When I last spoke with him he was engaged to a beautiful intelligent accomplished person. His construction business was taking off incredibly. He had built himself a very nice house in an upper middle-class neighborhood. He had finally found success and was on his way.

I lost touch with him for a time. I tried reaching out via his cell phone to learn that it was disconnected. I sent a letter to his home, and it was returned. He had disappeared from the Internet. I couldn't find his business license, address, or any other evidence that he still existed. Eventually, I sent a letter to his sister and she sent a reply.

It turns out that my dear friend had done something dramatic soon after I last spoke with him. For reasons only known to him, he broke off his engagement, closed his booming business, and systematically sold off all of his assets. He choose to FIRE in a halfway house located in one of the desert states far from his home. Every month $500 is auto drafted from his account and sent to the organization that maintains a bunk bed, food, and some medical oversight.

He spends his days wandering the streets intoxicated. At night he returns to the halfway house. Why he chose this life I will probably never know. Clearly his plan was/is to consume his days in this manner until he has expired. He chose an alcoholic version of FIRE instead of his blooming full and successful life.

Any one of us could achieve FIRE right now. The question is what is your FIRE life going to look like? How much risk are you willing to accept? How long will it last? What is the level of severity are you willing to accept or be exposed to? I'm certain that my friend does not plan to live very long in retirement. He chose a reduced duration of his retirement through his lifestyle choices. The tragedy of my lost friend is something I will probably never understand.

People achieve FIRE all the time. It is mostly about the sacrifices.

It isn't about sacrifice. It's about kennen (shamelessly stolen from Jacob at ERE and is the German word for "to know in a familiar way") in regards to the life you want and how much that will cost. You're right that someone can buy a tent, a hatchet, and some booze and walk off into the woods and be "FIRE" their skill sets would have to be quite broad and robust in order to pull it off but it is possible.

More than likely some people are realizing that beyond the first few levels of Mazlow's hierarchy of needs capitalist society doesn't provide much for the top end. It seems that you'd probably disagree and find that identity and self actualization within a corporate society. Many people don't. So they pursue their yum elsewhere.

Your friend broke. That's it. He didn't FIRE and your deliberate twisting isn't a fair engagement in the conversation.

neo von retorch

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #558 on: January 20, 2022, 10:03:20 AM »
It's a blatant misunderstanding of cause and effect.

Friend breaks, sells/quits everything, severs relationships, and then lives in an unemployed manner where costs are low, but so is quality of life.

To somehow blame the choices he made on being "financially independent, retiring early" is completely nonsensical.

The egg didn't lay the chicken.

spartana

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #559 on: January 20, 2022, 10:07:07 AM »
Severity of FIRE

I have a college friend who achieved fire at 45 years of age. Throughout his adult life he had been married twice and experienced the normal ups and downs. When I last spoke with him he was engaged to a beautiful intelligent accomplished person. His construction business was taking off incredibly. He had built himself a very nice house in an upper middle-class neighborhood. He had finally found success and was on his way.

I lost touch with him for a time. I tried reaching out via his cell phone to learn that it was disconnected. I sent a letter to his home, and it was returned. He had disappeared from the Internet. I couldn't find his business license, address, or any other evidence that he still existed. Eventually, I sent a letter to his sister and she sent a reply.

It turns out that my dear friend had done something dramatic soon after I last spoke with him. For reasons only known to him, he broke off his engagement, closed his booming business, and systematically sold off all of his assets. He choose to FIRE in a halfway house located in one of the desert states far from his home. Every month $500 is auto drafted from his account and sent to the organization that maintains a bunk bed, food, and some medical oversight.

He spends his days wandering the streets intoxicated. At night he returns to the halfway house. Why he chose this life I will probably never know. Clearly his plan was/is to consume his days in this manner until he has expired. He chose an alcoholic version of FIRE instead of his blooming full and successful life.

Any one of us could achieve FIRE right now. The question is what is your FIRE life going to look like? How much risk are you willing to accept? How long will it last? What is the level of severity are you willing to accept or be exposed to? I'm certain that my friend does not plan to live very long in retirement. He chose a reduced duration of his retirement through his lifestyle choices. The tragedy of my lost friend is something I will probably never understand.

People achieve FIRE all the time. It is mostly about the sacrifices.

It isn't about sacrifice. It's about kennen (shamelessly stolen from Jacob at ERE and is the German word for "to know in a familiar way") in regards to the life you want and how much that will cost. You're right that someone can buy a tent, a hatchet, and some booze and walk off into the woods and be "FIRE" their skill sets would have to be quite broad and robust in order to pull it off but it is possible.

More than likely some people are realizing that beyond the first few levels of Mazlow's hierarchy of needs capitalist society doesn't provide much for the top end. It seems that you'd probably disagree and find that identity and self actualization within a corporate society. Many people don't. So they pursue their yum elsewhere.

Your friend broke. That's it. He didn't FIRE and your deliberate twisting isn't a fair engagement in the conversation.
Well if he's in a halfway house he's living a fatFIRE life. The rest of us FIREees live in a cardboard box under the bridge and dumpster dive for food.

Seriously I can't believe @Skyhigh would continue to use those kinds of stories as anything akin to FIRE. The homeless acoholic? Does he seriously consider this FIRE? This is getting beyond twisted and trollish. 

Anyways I can't see the point of this going on any longer. He just doesn't get it and after years (since 2014) he continues to go on and on in the same vain I know he will never see the difference between a healthy, happy, financially stable and fullfilling FIRE life and a homeless meth head who lives on the streets as an example of FIRE gone bad.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 10:09:30 AM by spartana »

neo von retorch

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #560 on: January 20, 2022, 10:27:12 AM »
I think you meant "vein", but "vain" kind of works, too...

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #561 on: January 21, 2022, 08:44:08 AM »
The case for affluent FIRE

A budget is like going on a financial diet. It is necessary initially to attain financial health however most are unable to maintain the restrictions indefinitely. Humans tend not to do well when faced with unlimited artificial restrictions such as a harsh budget. We have good days and bad. Eventually, someone will come home with a $300 jacket. When the budgeters are married that means the risk of failure is doubled since there are now two people in this equation that share equal responsibility.

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend. On paper, I'm sure it looks feasible and maybe even survivable in the short term. However, it should not be planned to last forever. Eventually, someone will crack. Someone else on this thread made the comment that fire does not have to be so anemic. FIRE should probably be pursued to a healthy financial level. Squirreling away a small pile of nuts and expecting to feed off of that for 40 or more years is an unlikely and grim prospect from my perspective. A great way to extend the life of that plan is to continue working at something.

Our mentor MMM is a great example of how to live active FIRE. He does not sit patiently at home counting the days until he can withdraw his next meager monthly portion. He is out there trying to improve his financial situation. A better approach to FIRE is to combine frugality with active financial pursuits (work) in hopes of ensuring an increasing budget and then a more active successful life in FIRE.

DadJokes

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #562 on: January 21, 2022, 08:47:23 AM »

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

charis

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #563 on: January 21, 2022, 08:54:32 AM »

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

And literally no made the case against an affluent FIRE. The whole forum is premised on planning for a retirement based on desired spending levels. People are encouraged to cut pointless spending, not live in poverty.

These problems are in your head, not on this board.

boarder42

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #564 on: January 21, 2022, 09:04:53 AM »

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

FIREd 2 days ago with an 90k planned spend and due to some FIRE hobbies we'll have a WR sub 3%.

Also we're a family of 4 with kids 1 and 3 and I'm an extrovert.

Basically everything you're presuppositing is incorrect.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 09:42:46 AM by boarder42 »

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #565 on: January 21, 2022, 09:28:24 AM »
From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”


Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #566 on: January 21, 2022, 09:30:30 AM »
Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire

I disagree, my friend made the same choice as many of you to intentionally abandon a productive life for a self-centered meager existence. He achieved FIRE and is living it in his way.

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #567 on: January 21, 2022, 09:30:41 AM »
Yeah I'd say this forum has an opposite problem to what you are saying. Many people here are profligate spenders and probably don't question their spending within the context of weighing what makes them happy versus what is good for the world/community/long term survival of humans/long term survival of the earth.

I'd argue many more people stop very quickly at the what makes me happy and set their sights on that rather than these restrictive statements you seem to perceive. Do you have solid examples of what you are talking about?

charis

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #568 on: January 21, 2022, 09:53:16 AM »
Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire

I disagree, my friend made the same choice as many of you to intentionally abandon a productive life for a self-centered meager existence. He achieved FIRE and is living it in his way.

No, he has a disease and is unable to function, and no one is proposing this type of existence anywhere on this forum. If you can't see the difference, you are not thinking critically, either by obstinance or you don't have the capacity.

bacchi

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #569 on: January 21, 2022, 10:34:37 AM »
Yeah I'd say this forum has an opposite problem to what you are saying. Many people here are profligate spenders and probably don't question their spending within the context of weighing what makes them happy versus what is good for the world/community/long term survival of humans/long term survival of the earth.

I'd argue many more people stop very quickly at the what makes me happy and set their sights on that rather than these restrictive statements you seem to perceive. Do you have solid examples of what you are talking about?

boarder42 literally just wrote that he'll be spending only $90k! He probably doesn't even have a 2nd home on the beach either.

If that's not leanFIRE, I don't know what is.

Dicey

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #570 on: January 21, 2022, 10:47:36 AM »
I know that you guys get frustrated with me due to my lack of responses. I only have perhaps 20 minutes in the morning before I have other things to focus on. My apologies.
If you were really FIRE, you could spend as much time as you want on the internet, or anywhere you please.

It seems you rarely venture outside your journal to help anyone else, either. Though, perhaps it's best that your viewpoints are voluntarily self-contained.

I think for most self-enlightened mustachians who really, truly want(ed) to help, this thread has just become a source of bewildered amusement and perhaps a little conversation amongst ourselves. No need to apologize, we're fine.

nereo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #571 on: January 21, 2022, 11:02:33 AM »

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

Now the OP is simply gaslighting.

neo von retorch

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #572 on: January 21, 2022, 11:42:47 AM »
this thread has just become a source of bewildered amusement and perhaps a little conversation amongst ourselves

How did you figure me out?!

Quote
Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.

Employment is one of many powerful financial tools. If you lack the understanding necessary to utilize other tools, including investments with safe withdrawal rates, you need to learn that before you can preach to anyone here that has already figured that part out.

The life that people want may or may not include remaining employed and as such, if you educate yourself on how other financial tools work, you can move on from that tool (one that requires trading your precious time for money) on to using tools that put your assets to work for you, and let you build the life that you want spending your time exactly as you determine is best for you.

FIRE 20/20

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #573 on: January 21, 2022, 11:58:20 AM »

The biggest pushback that people have with me is my desire to pursue my career objective after FIRE. 

No.  The biggest pushback is that you are talking without listening.  Yes, the FIRE pitfalls you highlight are possible, but by listening to the lessons of others on this forum they can all be avoided.

You say FIRE means doing nothing.  I am FIREd and I am far more active than I was when I was working.  My working life was walking from cubicle to meeting room and back.  I now walk from forest to mountain top.
You say FIRE is boring.  My FIREd life is exhilarating.  I find new and exciting things to do every day, I travel all over the world (when there isn't a pandemic), I am developing new skills and making new friends.
You talk about living off a "pile of nuts", or an "incredibly slim stipend".  I spend as much as I want and yet my investments would allow me to spend double what I am spending now.  But my life is so fulfilling I can't imagine what I could spend more money on.  I donate thousands of dollars to charity because I have too much money to spend on myself and my family in one lifetime.  I could literally light $1,000 a week on fire just to watch it burn and I still would never run out of money. 
You say FIRE can damage my EGO, and causes loneliness and depression.  I was diagnosed with clinical depression at age 14 and lived with it until about a year before FIRE.  Since FIRE I have been off my old depression meds and am happier than I've ever been.  I spend more time with friends and family, so I am less lonely.  My EGO was never associated with my job but with my contributions to the lives of those around me.  I am now able to contribute more to the lives of my friends, family, and community so my EGO is better than ever.
You say we are "depressed cubicle dwellers".  I had a fulfilling career that allowed me to make a difference in many people's lives.  I had great managers and co-workers.  But the freedom to travel the world, spend more time with friends and family, learn new and exciting things, help people through volunteering, and live a full life was a vision better than the best job in the world.  The 3 years I've been FIREd have been better than the best vision I had of FIRE. 

The frustrating thing is that I'm not special in any way.  I learned about many of these possibilities by reading what other people posted here and on other FIRE blogs.  Because I listened and learned from them I was able to construct a full life that would make almost anyone happy, and with more financial security than any job can provide.  You are here.  You found a place that has many of the keys to your best possible life.  You can do the same thing, but only if you listen to the people who have gone before and already created a map to avoid the pitfalls you highlight.  The map is right in front of you but you won't look at it.  That's the horrible tragedy of this thread.  If you would just *read* your best life would be available to you.  But instead of reading you try to tell everyone that the wonderful FIREd life they're actually living isn't really there.  It's just so tragic.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 12:02:03 PM by FIRE 20/20 »

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #574 on: January 21, 2022, 12:22:20 PM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.

ysette9

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #575 on: January 21, 2022, 04:14:02 PM »
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

lhamo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #576 on: January 21, 2022, 04:18:57 PM »
Another HORRIBLE day in my FIRED life:

Today is the first in a good stretch of sunny days, which those of us in Seattle know to seize on while they last this time of year.  I already got my first tray of late winter/early spring seeds sown yesterday during a break in the rain, so since I had a couple of books on hold at the library I decided to walk there and enjoy the sun.  It is a 3 mile walk that takes about an hour even if I add in an extra off-trail/hilly bit, which I did today to push myself a bit.  Listened to a favorite old album (Indigo Girls)  on the  way and Spotify fed me some nice stuff by a few artists I hadn't heard of after -- love finding new music!

Dropped off the book I needed to return and picked up my two holds, then went upstairs  to the cafe/public seating area to  grab a light lunch while reading one of the books.  I did bring a Starbucks gift card along, but decided to spend my lunch money at the cafe because they are a local business that I want to support/keep going during these challenging times.  My food choice wasn't  expensive so it was easy to decide to leave a 25% tip.  I was happy to snag one of the few small tables next to the windows and got a bit of extra sun while I enjoyed  my lunch -- a beef and onion hand pie that had the most amazing rich crust! 

Got to the bus stop and realized when pulling my bus pass out that my library card wasn't in my wallet.  Walked back to the library but nobody had turned  it in.  No big, signed up for a new one.  Had a leisurely bus ride home, no need to stress about delayed connections because my time is my own. 

It's my turn to make dinner tonight so I'm going to try that feta/tomato pasta bake thing that was apparently all the rage on tik tok a few weeks back.  I have feta we should use  up and  just  got a bunch of semi-dehydrated tomatoes from the garden  out of the freezer, along with some  bread for  garlic bread.  DS (tech worker who at age 20 already has a pretty good grasp of the importance of work/life balance) just came over to go on a bike ride with his Dad (also FIREd) -- they usually bike together 2-3x/week when the weather permits.  He'll stay for dinner after.  It's nice when your teen/young adult kids actually enjoy hanging out for dinner with the  family!

Oh, I guess I forgot to moan and groan about how miserable and miserly our FIREd lifestyle is.  Too busy enjoying it, I guess.

ysette9

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #577 on: January 21, 2022, 05:56:11 PM »
Another HORRIBLE day in my FIRED life:

Today is the first in a good stretch of sunny days, which those of us in Seattle know to seize on while they last this time of year.  I already got my first tray of late winter/early spring seeds sown yesterday during a break in the rain, so since I had a couple of books on hold at the library I decided to walk there and enjoy the sun.  It is a 3 mile walk that takes about an hour even if I add in an extra off-trail/hilly bit, which I did today to push myself a bit.  Listened to a favorite old album (Indigo Girls)  on the  way and Spotify fed me some nice stuff by a few artists I hadn't heard of after -- love finding new music!

Dropped off the book I needed to return and picked up my two holds, then went upstairs  to the cafe/public seating area to  grab a light lunch while reading one of the books.  I did bring a Starbucks gift card along, but decided to spend my lunch money at the cafe because they are a local business that I want to support/keep going during these challenging times.  My food choice wasn't  expensive so it was easy to decide to leave a 25% tip.  I was happy to snag one of the few small tables next to the windows and got a bit of extra sun while I enjoyed  my lunch -- a beef and onion hand pie that had the most amazing rich crust! 

Got to the bus stop and realized when pulling my bus pass out that my library card wasn't in my wallet.  Walked back to the library but nobody had turned  it in.  No big, signed up for a new one.  Had a leisurely bus ride home, no need to stress about delayed connections because my time is my own. 

It's my turn to make dinner tonight so I'm going to try that feta/tomato pasta bake thing that was apparently all the rage on tik tok a few weeks back.  I have feta we should use  up and  just  got a bunch of semi-dehydrated tomatoes from the garden  out of the freezer, along with some  bread for  garlic bread.  DS (tech worker who at age 20 already has a pretty good grasp of the importance of work/life balance) just came over to go on a bike ride with his Dad (also FIREd) -- they usually bike together 2-3x/week when the weather permits.  He'll stay for dinner after.  It's nice when your teen/young adult kids actually enjoy hanging out for dinner with the  family!

Oh, I guess I forgot to moan and groan about how miserable and miserly our FIREd lifestyle is.  Too busy enjoying it, I guess.
I walked to the library today also, with my husband. :) You’ve got me thinking now that we should be putting seeds in the ground. I mentioned it to my husband and he was surprised because he thought it was early. Got to check the planting calendar.

lhamo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #578 on: January 21, 2022, 06:19:35 PM »
The only thing I planted directly was some arugula -  the rest went into seed trays that go on my little heat mat in the mini-greenhouse!  I  am going to experiment with some older flower seeds, though. Some (like echinacea) need a period of cold before they will germinate.

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #579 on: January 21, 2022, 06:39:49 PM »
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

charis

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #580 on: January 21, 2022, 07:56:26 PM »
I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

skyhigh = Colin Robinson?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUzcO-Jtk70

"They called me a dumbass."
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 08:02:20 PM by charis »

alm0stk00l

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #581 on: January 21, 2022, 11:22:46 PM »
I accidentally responded to this troll several pages ago... is there a way to make this thread stop showing up in my "Show new replies to your posts" section?

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #582 on: January 22, 2022, 04:30:55 AM »
I'm not sure but I think you'd have to delete your posts from the thread.

herbgeek

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #583 on: January 22, 2022, 05:29:05 AM »
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #584 on: January 22, 2022, 06:46:49 AM »
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.

Thanks I'll look into that. I'm pretty small scale at this time. Just three beds in the back. I don't have a greenhouse yet because I haven't planned out where to put it. Doing some fruit and nut trees in the front yard this year to get some peaches and hazelnuts.

nereo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #585 on: January 22, 2022, 06:50:29 AM »
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.

I’m in northern NE - my temperature sensor currently reads -4ºF (-20ºC). Even freeze-tolerant perennials tend to die in containers at these temps. Maybe in another 8-10 weeks….
Thankfully I’ve got my indoor plantings

lhamo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #586 on: January 22, 2022, 09:12:06 AM »
Eliot Coleman's winter gardening book is another great resource -- oriented more toward the market gardener, but lots of useful info for us amateurs,too

https://www.chelseagreen.com/product/the-winter-harvest-handbook/

This book is where I learned about how plants basically shut down growth when the level of daylight dips below 10 hours/day.  So I don't expect much between about mid-November and mid-February in my location.

NotJen

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #587 on: January 22, 2022, 09:13:25 AM »

Dicey

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #588 on: January 22, 2022, 09:54:52 AM »
The egg didn't lay the chicken.
Speaking of eggs and chickens, SH glosses over the fact that he has a huge family and the costs involved in the choices he's made. Nothing wrong with having a large family*, but own it, man. Kids cost a metric fuckton of money. SH made choices that require a shitload more money than average.

*Leaving aside some obvious environmental factors for the sake of making this point.

herbgeek

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #589 on: January 22, 2022, 01:19:43 PM »
Quote
Even freeze-tolerant perennials tend to die in containers at these temps.

I'm planting seeds when I winter sow.  They don't germinate until at least April.  Its just a way for me to get dirt under my fingernails.   I do the planting inside, then put the jugs outside for the winter.

spartana

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #590 on: January 23, 2022, 11:53:31 PM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating.  At least some good threads and discussions  have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #591 on: January 25, 2022, 08:45:28 AM »
Government-sponsored FIRE

I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life.  At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.

Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.

Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)

Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.

I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile. 

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #592 on: January 25, 2022, 08:47:05 AM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating.  At least some good threads and discussions  have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.

I am sorry for my lack of a timely response. I do have a life outside of this forum and professional obligations. However, I will do my best.

Kris

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #593 on: January 25, 2022, 08:57:46 AM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating.  At least some good threads and discussions  have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.

I am sorry for my lack of a timely response. I do have a life outside of this forum and professional obligations. However, I will do my best.

Your lack of response is not due to lack of time. It's due to you refusing to engage with anything you don't agree with. Case in point.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #594 on: January 25, 2022, 09:07:58 AM »
The egg didn't lay the chicken.
Speaking of eggs and chickens, SH glosses over the fact that he has a huge family and the costs involved in the choices he's made. Nothing wrong with having a large family*, but own it, man. Kids cost a metric fuckton of money. SH made choices that require a shitload more money than average.

*Leaving aside some obvious environmental factors for the sake of making this point.

I believe that having children helps with FIRE. The Financial Samurai has a great article regarding the effect. My explanation is that the responsibility of having to provide for so many children focuses one's drive and efforts. Plenty of others who also have large families have been able to achieve an advantaged position in life out of the necessity that is created by having so many. The responsibility really pushes you to achieve more. The example that I am trying to provide for my adult children is also a motivator. I really feel that FIRE is something that appeals to single people more. However, it often takes the purpose created by having children in order to achieve the financial resources to FIRE. The irony is that you will not want to retire.

I agree, however, that it is much harder with a lot of kids. In my case, our first child spent some time in daycare while we both were still working wage slave jobs. After I was laid off my wife remained at home and worked a side business of hers while I built our real estate investment portfolio. The remaining children have never known daycare or even a babysitter. Thanks to FIRE one of us has been with them every day until school age.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 09:09:37 AM by Skyhigh »

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #595 on: January 25, 2022, 09:15:51 AM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.

I believe that it takes an active source of income in order to FIRE and that no one should ever feel completely safe from the things that life can throw at us. Most people get bored in retirement. It can take a lot of resources to participate in certain hobbies. Five Million for a single person is more reasonable. Plenty here are proposing to FIRE on a million dollars when only 35 years of age. A lot can go wrong with that much time and youthful opportunity.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #596 on: January 25, 2022, 09:36:41 AM »
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.

I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.


nereo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #597 on: January 25, 2022, 09:36:54 AM »

I believe that it takes an active source of income in order to FIRE

Basically this statement boils down to "I don't believe FIRE is possible". 

Active income is broadly categorized as "work". 

"Needing to Work" is diametrically opposed to being "Retired"

Again: you are using definitions and characterizations that no one else here uses.  Ergo, we cannot have a productive conversation.

boarder42

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #598 on: January 25, 2022, 09:53:46 AM »
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.

Kris

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #599 on: January 25, 2022, 09:55:45 AM »
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.

Truth. This thread is inadvertently one of the strongest advertisements in favor of FIRE I've seen in a long time.