Author Topic: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America  (Read 64154 times)

nereo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #550 on: January 21, 2022, 11:02:33 AM »

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

Now the OP is simply gaslighting.

neo von retorch

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #551 on: January 21, 2022, 11:42:47 AM »
this thread has just become a source of bewildered amusement and perhaps a little conversation amongst ourselves

How did you figure me out?!

Quote
Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.

Employment is one of many powerful financial tools. If you lack the understanding necessary to utilize other tools, including investments with safe withdrawal rates, you need to learn that before you can preach to anyone here that has already figured that part out.

The life that people want may or may not include remaining employed and as such, if you educate yourself on how other financial tools work, you can move on from that tool (one that requires trading your precious time for money) on to using tools that put your assets to work for you, and let you build the life that you want spending your time exactly as you determine is best for you.

FIRE 20/20

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #552 on: January 21, 2022, 11:58:20 AM »

The biggest pushback that people have with me is my desire to pursue my career objective after FIRE. 

No.  The biggest pushback is that you are talking without listening.  Yes, the FIRE pitfalls you highlight are possible, but by listening to the lessons of others on this forum they can all be avoided.

You say FIRE means doing nothing.  I am FIREd and I am far more active than I was when I was working.  My working life was walking from cubicle to meeting room and back.  I now walk from forest to mountain top.
You say FIRE is boring.  My FIREd life is exhilarating.  I find new and exciting things to do every day, I travel all over the world (when there isn't a pandemic), I am developing new skills and making new friends.
You talk about living off a "pile of nuts", or an "incredibly slim stipend".  I spend as much as I want and yet my investments would allow me to spend double what I am spending now.  But my life is so fulfilling I can't imagine what I could spend more money on.  I donate thousands of dollars to charity because I have too much money to spend on myself and my family in one lifetime.  I could literally light $1,000 a week on fire just to watch it burn and I still would never run out of money. 
You say FIRE can damage my EGO, and causes loneliness and depression.  I was diagnosed with clinical depression at age 14 and lived with it until about a year before FIRE.  Since FIRE I have been off my old depression meds and am happier than I've ever been.  I spend more time with friends and family, so I am less lonely.  My EGO was never associated with my job but with my contributions to the lives of those around me.  I am now able to contribute more to the lives of my friends, family, and community so my EGO is better than ever.
You say we are "depressed cubicle dwellers".  I had a fulfilling career that allowed me to make a difference in many people's lives.  I had great managers and co-workers.  But the freedom to travel the world, spend more time with friends and family, learn new and exciting things, help people through volunteering, and live a full life was a vision better than the best job in the world.  The 3 years I've been FIREd have been better than the best vision I had of FIRE. 

The frustrating thing is that I'm not special in any way.  I learned about many of these possibilities by reading what other people posted here and on other FIRE blogs.  Because I listened and learned from them I was able to construct a full life that would make almost anyone happy, and with more financial security than any job can provide.  You are here.  You found a place that has many of the keys to your best possible life.  You can do the same thing, but only if you listen to the people who have gone before and already created a map to avoid the pitfalls you highlight.  The map is right in front of you but you won't look at it.  That's the horrible tragedy of this thread.  If you would just *read* your best life would be available to you.  But instead of reading you try to tell everyone that the wonderful FIREd life they're actually living isn't really there.  It's just so tragic.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 12:02:03 PM by FIRE 20/20 »

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #553 on: January 21, 2022, 12:22:20 PM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.

ysette9

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #554 on: January 21, 2022, 04:14:02 PM »
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

lhamo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #555 on: January 21, 2022, 04:18:57 PM »
Another HORRIBLE day in my FIRED life:

Today is the first in a good stretch of sunny days, which those of us in Seattle know to seize on while they last this time of year.  I already got my first tray of late winter/early spring seeds sown yesterday during a break in the rain, so since I had a couple of books on hold at the library I decided to walk there and enjoy the sun.  It is a 3 mile walk that takes about an hour even if I add in an extra off-trail/hilly bit, which I did today to push myself a bit.  Listened to a favorite old album (Indigo Girls)  on the  way and Spotify fed me some nice stuff by a few artists I hadn't heard of after -- love finding new music!

Dropped off the book I needed to return and picked up my two holds, then went upstairs  to the cafe/public seating area to  grab a light lunch while reading one of the books.  I did bring a Starbucks gift card along, but decided to spend my lunch money at the cafe because they are a local business that I want to support/keep going during these challenging times.  My food choice wasn't  expensive so it was easy to decide to leave a 25% tip.  I was happy to snag one of the few small tables next to the windows and got a bit of extra sun while I enjoyed  my lunch -- a beef and onion hand pie that had the most amazing rich crust! 

Got to the bus stop and realized when pulling my bus pass out that my library card wasn't in my wallet.  Walked back to the library but nobody had turned  it in.  No big, signed up for a new one.  Had a leisurely bus ride home, no need to stress about delayed connections because my time is my own. 

It's my turn to make dinner tonight so I'm going to try that feta/tomato pasta bake thing that was apparently all the rage on tik tok a few weeks back.  I have feta we should use  up and  just  got a bunch of semi-dehydrated tomatoes from the garden  out of the freezer, along with some  bread for  garlic bread.  DS (tech worker who at age 20 already has a pretty good grasp of the importance of work/life balance) just came over to go on a bike ride with his Dad (also FIREd) -- they usually bike together 2-3x/week when the weather permits.  He'll stay for dinner after.  It's nice when your teen/young adult kids actually enjoy hanging out for dinner with the  family!

Oh, I guess I forgot to moan and groan about how miserable and miserly our FIREd lifestyle is.  Too busy enjoying it, I guess.

ysette9

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #556 on: January 21, 2022, 05:56:11 PM »
Another HORRIBLE day in my FIRED life:

Today is the first in a good stretch of sunny days, which those of us in Seattle know to seize on while they last this time of year.  I already got my first tray of late winter/early spring seeds sown yesterday during a break in the rain, so since I had a couple of books on hold at the library I decided to walk there and enjoy the sun.  It is a 3 mile walk that takes about an hour even if I add in an extra off-trail/hilly bit, which I did today to push myself a bit.  Listened to a favorite old album (Indigo Girls)  on the  way and Spotify fed me some nice stuff by a few artists I hadn't heard of after -- love finding new music!

Dropped off the book I needed to return and picked up my two holds, then went upstairs  to the cafe/public seating area to  grab a light lunch while reading one of the books.  I did bring a Starbucks gift card along, but decided to spend my lunch money at the cafe because they are a local business that I want to support/keep going during these challenging times.  My food choice wasn't  expensive so it was easy to decide to leave a 25% tip.  I was happy to snag one of the few small tables next to the windows and got a bit of extra sun while I enjoyed  my lunch -- a beef and onion hand pie that had the most amazing rich crust! 

Got to the bus stop and realized when pulling my bus pass out that my library card wasn't in my wallet.  Walked back to the library but nobody had turned  it in.  No big, signed up for a new one.  Had a leisurely bus ride home, no need to stress about delayed connections because my time is my own. 

It's my turn to make dinner tonight so I'm going to try that feta/tomato pasta bake thing that was apparently all the rage on tik tok a few weeks back.  I have feta we should use  up and  just  got a bunch of semi-dehydrated tomatoes from the garden  out of the freezer, along with some  bread for  garlic bread.  DS (tech worker who at age 20 already has a pretty good grasp of the importance of work/life balance) just came over to go on a bike ride with his Dad (also FIREd) -- they usually bike together 2-3x/week when the weather permits.  He'll stay for dinner after.  It's nice when your teen/young adult kids actually enjoy hanging out for dinner with the  family!

Oh, I guess I forgot to moan and groan about how miserable and miserly our FIREd lifestyle is.  Too busy enjoying it, I guess.
I walked to the library today also, with my husband. :) You’ve got me thinking now that we should be putting seeds in the ground. I mentioned it to my husband and he was surprised because he thought it was early. Got to check the planting calendar.

lhamo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #557 on: January 21, 2022, 06:19:35 PM »
The only thing I planted directly was some arugula -  the rest went into seed trays that go on my little heat mat in the mini-greenhouse!  I  am going to experiment with some older flower seeds, though. Some (like echinacea) need a period of cold before they will germinate.

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #558 on: January 21, 2022, 06:39:49 PM »
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

charis

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #559 on: January 21, 2022, 07:56:26 PM »
I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

skyhigh = Colin Robinson?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUzcO-Jtk70

"They called me a dumbass."
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 08:02:20 PM by charis »

alm0stk00l

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #560 on: January 21, 2022, 11:22:46 PM »
I accidentally responded to this troll several pages ago... is there a way to make this thread stop showing up in my "Show new replies to your posts" section?

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #561 on: January 22, 2022, 04:30:55 AM »
I'm not sure but I think you'd have to delete your posts from the thread.

herbgeek

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #562 on: January 22, 2022, 05:29:05 AM »
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #563 on: January 22, 2022, 06:46:49 AM »
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.

Thanks I'll look into that. I'm pretty small scale at this time. Just three beds in the back. I don't have a greenhouse yet because I haven't planned out where to put it. Doing some fruit and nut trees in the front yard this year to get some peaches and hazelnuts.

nereo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #564 on: January 22, 2022, 06:50:29 AM »
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.

I’m in northern NE - my temperature sensor currently reads -4ºF (-20ºC). Even freeze-tolerant perennials tend to die in containers at these temps. Maybe in another 8-10 weeks….
Thankfully I’ve got my indoor plantings

lhamo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #565 on: January 22, 2022, 09:12:06 AM »
Eliot Coleman's winter gardening book is another great resource -- oriented more toward the market gardener, but lots of useful info for us amateurs,too

https://www.chelseagreen.com/product/the-winter-harvest-handbook/

This book is where I learned about how plants basically shut down growth when the level of daylight dips below 10 hours/day.  So I don't expect much between about mid-November and mid-February in my location.

NotJen

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #566 on: January 22, 2022, 09:13:25 AM »

Dicey

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #567 on: January 22, 2022, 09:54:52 AM »
The egg didn't lay the chicken.
Speaking of eggs and chickens, SH glosses over the fact that he has a huge family and the costs involved in the choices he's made. Nothing wrong with having a large family*, but own it, man. Kids cost a metric fuckton of money. SH made choices that require a shitload more money than average.

*Leaving aside some obvious environmental factors for the sake of making this point.

herbgeek

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #568 on: January 22, 2022, 01:19:43 PM »
Quote
Even freeze-tolerant perennials tend to die in containers at these temps.

I'm planting seeds when I winter sow.  They don't germinate until at least April.  Its just a way for me to get dirt under my fingernails.   I do the planting inside, then put the jugs outside for the winter.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #569 on: January 25, 2022, 08:45:28 AM »
Government-sponsored FIRE

I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life.  At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.

Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.

Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)

Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.

I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile. 

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #570 on: January 25, 2022, 08:47:05 AM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating.  At least some good threads and discussions  have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.

I am sorry for my lack of a timely response. I do have a life outside of this forum and professional obligations. However, I will do my best.

Kris

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #571 on: January 25, 2022, 08:57:46 AM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating.  At least some good threads and discussions  have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.

I am sorry for my lack of a timely response. I do have a life outside of this forum and professional obligations. However, I will do my best.

Your lack of response is not due to lack of time. It's due to you refusing to engage with anything you don't agree with. Case in point.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #572 on: January 25, 2022, 09:07:58 AM »
The egg didn't lay the chicken.
Speaking of eggs and chickens, SH glosses over the fact that he has a huge family and the costs involved in the choices he's made. Nothing wrong with having a large family*, but own it, man. Kids cost a metric fuckton of money. SH made choices that require a shitload more money than average.

*Leaving aside some obvious environmental factors for the sake of making this point.

I believe that having children helps with FIRE. The Financial Samurai has a great article regarding the effect. My explanation is that the responsibility of having to provide for so many children focuses one's drive and efforts. Plenty of others who also have large families have been able to achieve an advantaged position in life out of the necessity that is created by having so many. The responsibility really pushes you to achieve more. The example that I am trying to provide for my adult children is also a motivator. I really feel that FIRE is something that appeals to single people more. However, it often takes the purpose created by having children in order to achieve the financial resources to FIRE. The irony is that you will not want to retire.

I agree, however, that it is much harder with a lot of kids. In my case, our first child spent some time in daycare while we both were still working wage slave jobs. After I was laid off my wife remained at home and worked a side business of hers while I built our real estate investment portfolio. The remaining children have never known daycare or even a babysitter. Thanks to FIRE one of us has been with them every day until school age.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 09:09:37 AM by Skyhigh »

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #573 on: January 25, 2022, 09:15:51 AM »
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.

I believe that it takes an active source of income in order to FIRE and that no one should ever feel completely safe from the things that life can throw at us. Most people get bored in retirement. It can take a lot of resources to participate in certain hobbies. Five Million for a single person is more reasonable. Plenty here are proposing to FIRE on a million dollars when only 35 years of age. A lot can go wrong with that much time and youthful opportunity.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #574 on: January 25, 2022, 09:36:41 AM »
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.

I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.


nereo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #575 on: January 25, 2022, 09:36:54 AM »

I believe that it takes an active source of income in order to FIRE

Basically this statement boils down to "I don't believe FIRE is possible". 

Active income is broadly categorized as "work". 

"Needing to Work" is diametrically opposed to being "Retired"

Again: you are using definitions and characterizations that no one else here uses.  Ergo, we cannot have a productive conversation.

boarder42

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #576 on: January 25, 2022, 09:53:46 AM »
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.

Kris

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #577 on: January 25, 2022, 09:55:45 AM »
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.

Truth. This thread is inadvertently one of the strongest advertisements in favor of FIRE I've seen in a long time.

DaMa

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #578 on: January 25, 2022, 09:59:46 AM »
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.

^^This!

I was considering deleting my posts so I wouldn't follow this thread anymore.  Then I realized I don't even pay attention to SH's posts.  All the others are a gold mine of information on the psychology of FIRE.

neo von retorch

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #579 on: January 25, 2022, 10:02:34 AM »
Among the incorrect assumptions, there are a few things this keeps boiling down to

Quote
The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.

Someone isn't capable of pushing themselves in a way that results in meaningful growth. Only by being responsible to others, and offloading the burden of creating purpose do they feel life is worth living.

This isn't about FIRE, but about one person's search for meaning. They incorrectly attribute the cause of their personal struggles, and try to find ways to argue their misguided point.

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #580 on: January 25, 2022, 11:52:31 AM »
What you are saying is that people who are extrinsically motivated will have a harder time in FIRE. Probably true. But have you considered intrinsically motivated people? Or people who go from extrinsic to intrinsic?


Government-sponsored FIRE

I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life.  At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.

Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.

Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)

Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.

I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile. 


By your own definition you are saying she's not FIRE.

hooplady

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #581 on: January 25, 2022, 01:20:04 PM »
I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
The fact that he couldn't find any value or fulfillment in volunteer opportunities is the most puzzling. So what if the duty is putting away folding chairs or filling juice cups? If it's in support of an organization or cause that one feels passionate about, it matters. Apparently he is too good for these menial tasks.  In contrast, I volunteer for the local animal shelter. Some volunteers are retired, some fit it in before or after work. What this means is that I know lots of people who literally find joy and fulfillment in PICKING UP POOP. We also do fun stuff like washing and folding laundry and cleaning the cat kennels.

I have to wonder if he was asked to step down or diverted from other jobs because of his attitude. We've certainly seen countless examples here, I can only imagine that he conveys the same personality in real life.

ysette9

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #582 on: January 25, 2022, 04:52:52 PM »
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.

I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
I’m sorry that your life has turned out so disappointing to you. Personally I think you have accomplished a lot and should be proud of yourself and what you have done. It is a waste to sit around chewing endlessly at “what ifs” instead of living a great life now. It’s not like griping is making your life more fulfilling. You’ve tried hard to rain on our parade but the likes of us in this forum are a stubborn lot and we will continue to enjoy the FIRE life. If things go south financially then we will activate some of our several contingency plans (rent out unused space, cut back spending, take on a bit of part time work, etc.).

Breathe. It will be okay.

boarder42

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #583 on: January 25, 2022, 05:02:27 PM »
To summarize @Skyhigh has literally done absolutely everything we all do/plan to do in retirement and he wants us to know how miserable every single one of those options are. Despite having never actually FIREd bc he's always had active income.   

He hates everything in life except the idea of a job he had forever ago when he was fired. Not FIREd but actually let go and now can't ever get it back.

He has also categorized all of us into a shoebox that maybe is 1% of the forum.


Kris

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #584 on: January 25, 2022, 05:26:11 PM »
I actually sortakinda agree with him, but not in the way he thinks. All I see is a guy who has bought into society’s narrative that a man’s entire identity is nothing but his ability to make money and be a capitalist cog.

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #585 on: January 25, 2022, 06:37:31 PM »
I actually sortakinda agree with him, but not in the way he thinks. All I see is a guy who has bought into society’s narrative that a man’s entire identity is nothing but his ability to make money and be a capitalist cog.

Yeah there are small nuggets where I agree but he doesn't take the thought far enough to know whether the issue is true or surmountable.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #586 on: January 26, 2022, 08:37:18 AM »
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

nereo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #587 on: January 26, 2022, 08:42:55 AM »
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

Seems like this is OT enough to warrant a completely different thread.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #588 on: January 26, 2022, 08:43:04 AM »
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.

I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
I’m sorry that your life has turned out so disappointing to you. Personally I think you have accomplished a lot and should be proud of yourself and what you have done. It is a waste to sit around chewing endlessly at “what ifs” instead of living a great life now. It’s not like griping is making your life more fulfilling. You’ve tried hard to rain on our parade but the likes of us in this forum are a stubborn lot and we will continue to enjoy the FIRE life. If things go south financially then we will activate some of our several contingency plans (rent out unused space, cut back spending, take on a bit of part time work, etc.).

Breathe. It will be okay.

I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach. I also believe that those who can be content with whatever their situation is are also the same people who would be content with living in a van. Discontent is the driving force behind progress. Without it, I would have remained at the gas station job I started with. (I often miss that job.)

Breathing is good but don't become too comfortible. Thank you for your comments.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #589 on: January 26, 2022, 08:44:27 AM »
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

Seems like this is OT enough to warrant a completely different thread.

Some here do not like me. I try to contain my posts to this thread as a courtesy to those who wish to avoid my comments.

nereo

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #590 on: January 26, 2022, 09:02:07 AM »
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

Seems like this is OT enough to warrant a completely different thread.

Some here do not like me. I try to contain my posts to this thread as a courtesy to those who wish to avoid my comments.

Starting an entirely new topic within an existing thread will not have any positive outcomes.

Posters who no longer wish to engage with you will simply avoid any threads you create. Those of us who continue to follow this thread will only get frustrated by having the conversation muddied by the OP discussing two very different topics.  It's a lose-lose.

However, if you were to start a new thread dedicated to a discussion about rent in the appropriate sub-forum you are likely to get more detailed and thoughtful responses, as the current thread-title will do nothing to attract the sorts of experienced opinions you seek.

(also, see: this concurrent thread)
 

Watchmaker

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #591 on: January 26, 2022, 09:04:13 AM »
I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach.

I know dozens or even hundreds of successful entrepreneurs. Not a single one of them is obsessed with their failures (just the opposite in fact). I think you're hanging out with the wrong crowd.

So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

I agree with the others that this should be a different thread, but I don't want you to feel ignored (even though you largely ignore everyone else on this thread), so here's my take:

I'm not a landlord, but I'd say you shouldn't feel bad as long as you are just bringing rates up to market rates and you're doing so in a legal manner (I understand some jurisdictions have limits to how much you can raise rents per year, but I don't know where you live). If they are good tenants, I would be tempted to spread those large increases across a few years, but I think most professionals would say that's me being overly soft.


Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #592 on: January 26, 2022, 09:21:41 AM »
After reading your comments I agree with many of your assessments. I am searching for additional meaning in life. My goal in attending college was so that I could become a class migrant and escape the working class. My aim was to become a professional like many of you here. It does bother me that I fell short. It feels a lot like life ducted me back into the working class despite all my efforts.

My purpose for attempting to become a professional elite was so that I could provide a better life for my family and myself. As a child, I was able to observe how professional elites lived and determined it was a better way. I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.

The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite. I know all about how to FIRE. It is easy for me. I grew up with it. It is why I don’t find it very interesting. It was my fallback plan. The working class knows all about frugality, self-reliance, and self-employment.

I can help to provide a path to FIRE. Despite my best efforts, I couldn't get a meaningful career in my chosen field.

Movie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 09:26:53 AM by Skyhigh »

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #593 on: January 26, 2022, 09:24:37 AM »
I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach.

I know dozens or even hundreds of successful entrepreneurs. Not a single one of them is obsessed with their failures (just the opposite in fact). I think you're hanging out with the wrong crowd.

So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

I agree with the others that this should be a different thread, but I don't want you to feel ignored (even though you largely ignore everyone else on this thread), so here's my take:

I'm not a landlord, but I'd say you shouldn't feel bad as long as you are just bringing rates up to market rates and you're doing so in a legal manner (I understand some jurisdictions have limits to how much you can raise rents per year, but I don't know where you live). If they are good tenants, I would be tempted to spread those large increases across a few years, but I think most professionals would say that's me being overly soft.

I agree that spreading the increases over a few years is a good path. We are considering something like this. People are getting priced out of homes all over America. It is sad. We are on the front lines of that experience.

neo von retorch

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #594 on: January 26, 2022, 09:27:43 AM »
I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.

I'd suggest you stop trying to classify everyone in the world, as well as put the broad variety of forum participants into a small box!

I'm a college dropout (hardly an "intellectual elite") that grew up on a farm, where I shoveled shit, pulled weeds, chopped firewood, repaired fences, made toys out of sticks and lumber... It's not "novel", really, and yet I enjoy it in adult life.

I have basically zero "status" in the corporate world, other than "employee number 637". I do not seek such status, as it is merely looking for recognition from others.

I think you have to look within, find things that you yourself truly value, and push yourself to accomplish those things, ignoring what other people think of you (beyond moral choices/things that could affect those around you.)

matchewed

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #595 on: January 26, 2022, 09:28:15 AM »
What is a professional or social elite? Can you define these terms so that we can know what you are saying?

Kris

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #596 on: January 26, 2022, 09:47:50 AM »
I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.

I'd suggest you stop trying to classify everyone in the world, as well as put the broad variety of forum participants into a small box!

I'm a college dropout (hardly an "intellectual elite") that grew up on a farm, where I shoveled shit, pulled weeds, chopped firewood, repaired fences, made toys out of sticks and lumber... It's not "novel", really, and yet I enjoy it in adult life.

I have basically zero "status" in the corporate world, other than "employee number 637". I do not seek such status, as it is merely looking for recognition from others.

I think you have to look within, find things that you yourself truly value, and push yourself to accomplish those things, ignoring what other people think of you (beyond moral choices/things that could affect those around you.)

Seriously. I think Skyhigh should really take a look in the mirror and ask himself why he is so committed to believing these things about this particular group of people, as a lens through which to view the comments he sees here. What, in other words, his lens is designed to highlight, and what it is designed to hide.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #597 on: January 26, 2022, 10:09:14 AM »
I did a ton of very hard manual and physical jobs and ran my own small companies for a good chunk of my working adult life. I figured a six-figure job was completely outside of possibility for me and honestly MMM changed that view for me. I began working as a contractor and eventually broke into the six-figure megacorp employment world with benefits. And changed my family’s life. However I always say that the first thing that I changed was my own mindset. Once I had the six-figure job I was on a mission to have something to show for that in a few years. So none of my spending increased, I refinanced debt. And at 51 (at the end of last year) I retired with $1 million in investments/savings. I love reading people’s examples of what they are doing in this phase of life.

So thank you I do consider myself elite.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #598 on: January 26, 2022, 10:11:56 AM »
And also if ever there was a time you could get a corporate job now is it. I just did two informational interviews because former colleagues reached out. Oh my God I’m so glad I’m done with it. So many dumbasses. But they are desperately searching for people to rule over. And have zoom meetings with.

Watchmaker

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #599 on: January 26, 2022, 10:24:14 AM »
After reading your comments I agree with many of your assessments. I am searching for additional meaning in life.
A noble goal.

My goal in attending college was so that I could become a class migrant and escape the working class. My aim was to become a professional like many of you here. It does bother me that I fell short. It feels a lot like life ducted me back into the working class despite all my efforts.

My purpose for attempting to become a professional elite was so that I could provide a better life for my family and myself. As a child, I was able to observe how professional elites lived and determined it was a better way. I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.

Many of the members of this forum (not all) are here because they were white collar workers and they found the structure and politics associated with that lifestyle to be unfulfilling. To quote Gertrude Stein: "There is no there there". A lot of people who have been to where you want to go are telling you it's not worth the trip.

The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.

I don't know what you are like in real life, but if you come across at all like you do online, it's no mystery to me why you struggled in the corporate world. While not being universal requirements, the ability to conform to the company culture and its unwritten etiquette, and being someone who is easy to communicate with are key predictors of success. It doesn't take much awkwardness in a interview for your resume to end up in the trash. Part of what college does (by design or not) is to socialize people into American middle class culture--to teach them how to behave in that world.

A lot of the things that worked against you in your career may be similar to the issues that women have faced in those same workplaces, and minorities as well. The thing is, that doesn't mean there's something wrong with you--maybe there's something wrong with that corporate culture.   

Does this feel similar to your experience?
https://www.themuse.com/advice/diversity-inclusion-class-difference-workplace-prudential

The good news is that corporate cultures have been changing, there are a lot of different types companies out there to pick from, and they are all hiring. If you really want advice on how to fit in to get a job, I'd be happy to help. To start, could you share a copy of your resume (with identifying information redacted)?

Movie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.

Never seen the movie, but I thought it was a narcissistic wank of a book.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 03:12:05 PM by Watchmaker »