Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America

[ysette9]

MMM and FS

From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.

Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.

I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.

You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.

[nereo]

As others have pointed out, you won't get much traction with FS here, and for good reason.
While Sam had some quality content early on, his later information is simply wrong.  It's not that we disagree with his opinions (which we do), but that he's guilty of using completely erroneous numbers in order to generate sensational click-bait articles to drive traffic.  Given his aptitude with finances, I can only conclude that he is deliberately and consistently lying in his posts.

[ROF Expat]

Skyhigh,

I think I replied to one of your posts a couple of years ago and said what I have to say, but I'm going to give it one more shot. 

Some people on this forum think you are a troll.  I kind of wish you were, because that would be better than your reality.  I think you are a deeply unhappy person who has never been able to get over being laid off from your chosen career path before achieving your goals. 

Most people who achieve difficult goals have failures, but they usually dust themselves off, think hard about how much of the failure was their own fault, and start over again.  Or try something new.  In your messages, I see common themes of blame of industry, company, and economy, ageism, etc. but never any hint that you might bear even a tiny amount of responsibility for losing your position and your inability to gain a new one.  And an absolute refusal to start over again at a lower level to get back on the ladder. 

I also think you have some serious self-esteem issues.  Your continued focus on a career blip decades ago and illusions about the "prestige" of a corporate career rather than pride in building a successful business and raising a happy family is just one example. 

Two things you said in previous posts really leapt out at me: 

"I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either."

"My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them." 

It is sad that you choose to characterize yourself with "I mow lawns" rather than "I'm a serial entrepreneur/real estate investor/business owner" and even more sad that you are embarrassed to be among your peers.  I also think you should listen to your wife and start pursuing happiness, either by making the sacrifices to follow your dream career (which involves risking failure), rethinking your career/life goals, and/or getting some counseling. 

I doubt you will take my advice above.  If that's the case, I have one other suggestion:  I presume your various businesses are structured in some formal way, as an LLC, corporation, or the like.  Give your company a fancy sounding name like "The Skyhigh Group" or "Skyhigh Capital".  Then, name yourself President or appoint your wife to the board and name yourself CEO.  Have some business cards made with your new title (spend the extra money for engraved cards if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Buy some expensive business suits (spend the extra money for high-end shoes if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Make some donations to the right local charities (As little as $5,000 or $10,000 donation to the local symphony/art museum/children's museum/children's hospital will get your or your company's name on programs, some invitations to events, and give you something to brag about).  Maybe buy a car that quietly says "money" (Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes station wagon are both solid choices).  Then go to parties and quietly look down your nose at the other guests.  You'll discover that most people really don't care what you do, but those who are shallow (dare I say bourgeois?) enough to be impressed by things like titles will be impressed.  If your businesses are doing as well as you say, you might want to consider hiring a hard charging young man or woman to do the lawn mowing and painting and learning to manage your businesses while you focus on expansion and making more money.  Then you'd actually be doing the President/CEO work indicated by your business card.  And I'll let you in on a secret:  in America, at the end of the day, most people are more impressed by money than titles. 

BTW,  you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door."  Some of the ideas in the book might help you recognize your own successes, and millionaires who were driven to succeed by childhood poverty and personal insecurity is one of the themes. 

Life is too short to be unhappy, and I think most people on this forum are a lot more interested in hearing from people who can be good examples rather than horrible warnings.  I think you've successfully made your point here; nobody wants to make the mistakes you've made.  It is just that nobody here thinks your real mistakes were about choosing FIRE. 

[ysette9]

~applauding~

[matchewed]

Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115

[Skyhigh]

Skyhigh,

I think I replied to one of your posts a couple of years ago and said what I have to say, but I'm going to give it one more shot. 

Some people on this forum think you are a troll.  I kind of wish you were, because that would be better than your reality.  I think you are a deeply unhappy person who has never been able to get over being laid off from your chosen career path before achieving your goals. 

Most people who achieve difficult goals have failures, but they usually dust themselves off, think hard about how much of the failure was their own fault, and start over again.  Or try something new.  In your messages, I see common themes of blame of industry, company, and economy, ageism, etc. but never any hint that you might bear even a tiny amount of responsibility for losing your position and your inability to gain a new one.  And an absolute refusal to start over again at a lower level to get back on the ladder. 

I also think you have some serious self-esteem issues.  Your continued focus on a career blip decades ago and illusions about the "prestige" of a corporate career rather than pride in building a successful business and raising a happy family is just one example. 

Two things you said in previous posts really leapt out at me: 

"I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either."

"My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them." 

It is sad that you choose to characterize yourself with "I mow lawns" rather than "I'm a serial entrepreneur/real estate investor/business owner" and even more sad that you are embarrassed to be among your peers.  I also think you should listen to your wife and start pursuing happiness, either by making the sacrifices to follow your dream career (which involves risking failure), rethinking your career/life goals, and/or getting some counseling. 

I doubt you will take my advice above.  If that's the case, I have one other suggestion:  I presume your various businesses are structured in some formal way, as an LLC, corporation, or the like.  Give your company a fancy sounding name like "The Skyhigh Group" or "Skyhigh Capital".  Then, name yourself President or appoint your wife to the board and name yourself CEO.  Have some business cards made with your new title (spend the extra money for engraved cards if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Buy some expensive business suits (spend the extra money for high-end shoes if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Make some donations to the right local charities (As little as $5,000 or $10,000 donation to the local symphony/art museum/children's museum/children's hospital will get your or your company's name on programs, some invitations to events, and give you something to brag about).  Maybe buy a car that quietly says "money" (Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes station wagon are both solid choices).  Then go to parties and quietly look down your nose at the other guests.  You'll discover that most people really don't care what you do, but those who are shallow (dare I say bourgeois?) enough to be impressed by things like titles will be impressed.  If your businesses are doing as well as you say, you might want to consider hiring a hard charging young man or woman to do the lawn mowing and painting and learning to manage your businesses while you focus on expansion and making more money.  Then you'd actually be doing the President/CEO work indicated by your business card.  And I'll let you in on a secret:  in America, at the end of the day, most people are more impressed by money than titles. 

BTW,  you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door."  Some of the ideas in the book might help you recognize your own successes, and millionaires who were driven to succeed by childhood poverty and personal insecurity is one of the themes. 

Life is too short to be unhappy, and I think most people on this forum are a lot more interested in hearing from people who can be good examples rather than horrible warnings.  I think you've successfully made your point here; nobody wants to make the mistakes you've made.  It is just that nobody here thinks your real mistakes were about choosing FIRE.

Thank you,

I value every post that is not intended as a low blow. The difference I have with most here is that I enjoyed my career. It was my childhood ambition and goal. Being laid off and forced to FIRE is a defeat for me. I am not proud of the fact that I figured out how to be able to do nothing. FIRE is boring. The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun. It is a fallback position that I expected to recover from. Now it seems that it is for keeps and it makes me sad.

All that being said, I am also an expert at achieving FIRE. My business helps people to accomplish it through real estate investing. I have been living it since 2002 longer than MMM and FS. This is a "post-fire" thread. My experiences have value here. My guess is that most of my detractors here are still trying to achieve FIRE and haven't experienced the issues that I write about.

[Moustachienne]

Oh, brother.

Skyhigh,

I think I replied to one of your posts a couple of years ago and said what I have to say, but I'm going to give it one more shot. 

Some people on this forum think you are a troll.  I kind of wish you were, because that would be better than your reality.  I think you are a deeply unhappy person who has never been able to get over being laid off from your chosen career path before achieving your goals. 

Most people who achieve difficult goals have failures, but they usually dust themselves off, think hard about how much of the failure was their own fault, and start over again.  Or try something new.  In your messages, I see common themes of blame of industry, company, and economy, ageism, etc. but never any hint that you might bear even a tiny amount of responsibility for losing your position and your inability to gain a new one.  And an absolute refusal to start over again at a lower level to get back on the ladder. 

I also think you have some serious self-esteem issues.  Your continued focus on a career blip decades ago and illusions about the "prestige" of a corporate career rather than pride in building a successful business and raising a happy family is just one example. 

Two things you said in previous posts really leapt out at me: 

"I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either."

"My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them." 

It is sad that you choose to characterize yourself with "I mow lawns" rather than "I'm a serial entrepreneur/real estate investor/business owner" and even more sad that you are embarrassed to be among your peers.  I also think you should listen to your wife and start pursuing happiness, either by making the sacrifices to follow your dream career (which involves risking failure), rethinking your career/life goals, and/or getting some counseling. 

I doubt you will take my advice above.  If that's the case, I have one other suggestion:  I presume your various businesses are structured in some formal way, as an LLC, corporation, or the like.  Give your company a fancy sounding name like "The Skyhigh Group" or "Skyhigh Capital".  Then, name yourself President or appoint your wife to the board and name yourself CEO.  Have some business cards made with your new title (spend the extra money for engraved cards if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Buy some expensive business suits (spend the extra money for high-end shoes if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Make some donations to the right local charities (As little as $5,000 or $10,000 donation to the local symphony/art museum/children's museum/children's hospital will get your or your company's name on programs, some invitations to events, and give you something to brag about).  Maybe buy a car that quietly says "money" (Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes station wagon are both solid choices).  Then go to parties and quietly look down your nose at the other guests.  You'll discover that most people really don't care what you do, but those who are shallow (dare I say bourgeois?) enough to be impressed by things like titles will be impressed.  If your businesses are doing as well as you say, you might want to consider hiring a hard charging young man or woman to do the lawn mowing and painting and learning to manage your businesses while you focus on expansion and making more money.  Then you'd actually be doing the President/CEO work indicated by your business card.  And I'll let you in on a secret:  in America, at the end of the day, most people are more impressed by money than titles. 

BTW,  you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door."  Some of the ideas in the book might help you recognize your own successes, and millionaires who were driven to succeed by childhood poverty and personal insecurity is one of the themes. 

Life is too short to be unhappy, and I think most people on this forum are a lot more interested in hearing from people who can be good examples rather than horrible warnings.  I think you've successfully made your point here; nobody wants to make the mistakes you've made.  It is just that nobody here thinks your real mistakes were about choosing FIRE.

Thank you,

I value every post that is not intended as a low blow. The difference I have with most here is that I enjoyed my career. It was my childhood ambition and goal. Being laid off and forced to FIRE is a defeat for me. I am not proud of the fact that I figured out how to be able to do nothing. FIRE is boring. The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun. It is a fallback position that I expected to recover from. Now it seems that it is for keeps and it makes me sad.

All that being said, I am also an expert at achieving FIRE. My business helps people to accomplish it through real estate investing. I have been living it since 2002 longer than MMM and FS. This is a "post-fire" thread. My experiences have value here. My guess is that most of my detractors here are still trying to achieve FIRE and haven't experienced the issues that I write about.

[neo von retorch]

The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun.

Can anyone tell me the best kind of work to start after I retire so that I can be retired while working for money?

[bacchi]

Another great Retirement movie recommendation

(2015) The Intern - Robert De Nero and Anne Hathaway.

It is a story about an accomplished age-appropriate retiree who goes back to work in an entry-level position. In my opinion, it is a great movie about the benefits of maintaining a purpose and lifelong contribution.

I want my 10 minutes back.

[ysette9]

The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun.

Can anyone tell me the best kind of work to start after I retire so that I can be retired while working for money?

That caught my eye also. This belongs in that thread about only the OP who doesn’t get it.

[ScreamingHeadGuy]

MMM and FS

From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.

Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.

I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.

You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.

Well, my goal is to become one with “nothingness” - but that’s neither here nor there. 

[FreshlyFIREd]

Thank you,

I value every post that is not intended as a low blow. The difference I have with most here is that I enjoyed my career. It was my childhood ambition and goal. Being laid off and forced to FIRE is a defeat for me. I am not proud of the fact that I figured out how to be able to do nothing. FIRE is boring. The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun. It is a fallback position that I expected to recover from. Now it seems that it is for keeps and it makes me sad.

All that being said, I am also an expert at achieving FIRE. My business helps people to accomplish it through real estate investing. I have been living it since 2002 longer than MMM and FS. This is a "post-fire" thread. My experiences have value here. My guess is that most of my detractors here are still trying to achieve FIRE and haven't experienced the issues that I write about.

Your "experience" has little value here. You are confusing "experience" for whining.

I too had unrealized occupational ambitions. There are millions of us. Think about the high probability of occupational failures ... "pro sports athletes", "actors", "students denied access - like medical school". Most of us get back up and dust ourselves off.

The obvious thing that you seem to be missing is that you are allowing your happiness to be controlled by others. If the others are preventing your happiness and joy, you will not listen. The people here are telling you the same thing that the rejection notices are telling you: The big airlines "do not want you".

Don't be the sad "sixty something busboy - cleaning tables", who tells everyone he is an actor. That busboy is a busboy - he is not an actor. I don't care how much he enjoyed the few acting positions he got.

Sky-high ... accept it. You are "fired" or retired, or cutting grass, real estate, or whatever you consider yourself. Quit trying out for the NFL team, they want the youth.

Your opportunity came and went. I accepted my defeats, others have accepted their defeats. Accept it.

[Skyhigh]

MMM and FS

From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.

Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.

I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.

You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.

Plenty have expressed their desire to burrow into a gopher hole and disappear from the working world completely after FIRE. They want to cease any means of producing an active source of income for themselves and intend to live off their pile of nuts for 45 years or more. In my opinion, that is a very risky venture unless you are able to accumulate a huge pile of nuts that is able to withstand what the future will throw at it. I also believe that it can lead to an unhealthy lifestyle.

The biggest pushback that people have with me is my desire to pursue my career objective after FIRE. I am a massive FIRE heretic because my experience disagrees with the common assumptions of what life in FIRE is. I have lived FIRE for a very long time. The people who I have as clients and colleagues have lived FIRE for a long time also. Some have had the ability to live FIRE for their entire lives. It is not an entirely good thing.

MMM is a great example of a dynamic autonomous FIRE lifestyle that includes work functions and active income streams. He probably works harder now than before FIRE generating content, flipping houses, and so on. 

[Skyhigh]

One of the things that I enjoy about a forum such as this is that anonymity permits people to speak their truth. A consequence of an anonymous forum, however, is that posters cannot validate their statements since we know very little about each other.

Plenty here have challenged my credibility. It is a natural assumption. I also must create assumptions about many of my detractors here based solely upon your comments and expressed values. My assumptions are as follows.

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

I come from a different demographic (I am an introvert. A regular one.). It is very possible that Our values and goals are not in alignment. However, it does not mean that I am necessarily wrong or a troll.

It seems to me that a common vision of FIRE here is as a solution to the hardships of life. My purpose here is to share that nothing is either all good or all bad. FIRE comes with many downsides. The hardships don’t go away they just change. FIRE involves risk. The acceptance of risk brings stress. FIRE changes your interface with the world at large. FIRE can be damaging to your EGO. It can lead to loneliness and depression. I know these things because I have lived FIRE for a very long time now. My FIRE colleagues have experienced similar consequences.

My antidote is to never cease your vital contribution to society. Keep trying to achieve your professional goals. You can plan a career change, but don’t retreat into your apartment and close the door to the world. The world needs you and you need it.

The happiest people that I have encountered in the working world are those who don't have to work but still can.

[lhamo]

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire. 

[SailingOnASmallSailboat]

The happiest people that I have encountered in the working world are those who don't have to work but still can.

Might be the only thing you've said I agree with. This right here is the joy, IMO, of being FI. It's the choice you have to do whatever you want. The "FU" money. By your own admission after you lost your high-level career track you HAD TO WORK at a profession you still denigrate on the regular. This is neither happy, nor FI. You no longer had the opportunity to work at a job you loved and instead had to scramble to make ends meet, to provide for your family. Good for you to do what needed to be done.

FYI. Me? 52, married, 2 kids. Former teacher and private school administrator. Achieved FI probably 6 years ago; RE a year ago. We also took 2 extended practice runs at the retirement life of our choosing (sailing around on our boat) in our 20s and again in our early 40s.

[Skyhigh]

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training. 

[boarder42]

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

[Skyhigh]

Revision:

I would like to add the following quality to my statement above.

Highly Educated. My assumption is that most here are; Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introverted, Cubicle Jockeys, Not achieved FIRE, and are Highly Educated.

I hold a bachelor's degree however tend heavily toward the working-class side of my personality. College was hard for me. I am more of a hands-on build-it myself kind of person and not cerebral. I have never gotten along well with number squirrels. I like them and admire their abilities but can not relate (obviously). It is probably why I enjoy all of you so much.

My aim is not to seek an echo chamber somewhere else, but an exchange with those who are not from my background. Many here are technology elites and I am a laborer. We see the world differently.

That being said, FIRE is a well-established tradition in the working class. We cant get fancy computer programming jobs that provide a surplus of income to save. Our approach to FIRE is to build something to get us there. We are plumbers, electritians, carpenters, general contractors, farmers, mechanics, long-haul truckers, and so on. The pattern is to open your own shop, hire others, and then do what you want. 

It is not the same as "discovering" frugality and squirreling away surplus income and then obsessing over it. I am trying to learn though. And, you all have a lot to learn from me.

[Skyhigh]

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

I am FIRE.

[boarder42]

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

I am FIRE.

you dont have time to read and respond to post b/c you have a business to run and a job to work

YOU ARE NOT FIRE

[ixtap]

Boy, you must be a real bundle of joy if you make a habit of spouting off and making assumptions without making time to get to know the people you are spouting at.

No one is mad that you choose to work. There is even a name for that around here that includes the word "satisfied." You seem very unsatisfied and intent on telling other people that they can't possibly be satisfied, either.

[neo von retorch]

Highly Educated. My assumption is that most here are; Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introverted, Cubicle Jockeys, Not achieved FIRE, and are Highly Educated.

I hold a bachelor's degree however tend heavily toward the working-class side of my personality. College was hard for me. I am more of a hands-on build-it myself kind of person and not cerebral. I have never gotten along well with number squirrels. I like them and admire their abilities but can not relate (obviously). It is probably why I enjoy all of you so much.

My aim is not to seek an echo chamber somewhere else, but an exchange with those who are not from my background. Many here are technology elites and I am a laborer. We see the world differently.

That being said, FIRE is a well-established tradition in the working class. We cant get fancy computer programming jobs that provide a surplus of income to save. Our approach to FIRE is to build something to get us there. We are plumbers, electritians, carpenters, general contractors, farmers, mechanics, long-haul truckers, and so on. The pattern is to open your own shop, hire others, and then do what you want. 

It is not the same as "discovering" frugality and squirreling away surplus income and then obsessing over it. I am trying to learn though. And, you all have a lot to learn from me.

Married, Over 40, No Children (not by choice), Extroverted, Home Office, ~70% to currently planned trajectory of FIRE, College dropout.

Always some shade of frugal, but never any kind of extreme.

It's hard to tell what we can learn from you, because you have a different set of vocabulary that you use from what everyone here uses.

FIRE, to us, means you have carefully figured out how you can life your desired lifestyle based on investments only, with no mandatory work of any kind. From there, you are not constrained in what you do. You may choose to further whatever aspirations you have. Some kind of career ambitions. Some kind of manual labor. Sweat equity. Leisure. Up to you. There is never "work you must do to remain financially independent and retired early." There is only what you choose to do. There is nothing forced upon you.

[ysette9]

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

I am FIRE.

you dont have time to read and respond to post b/c you have a business to run and a job to work

YOU ARE NOT FIRE

FI perhaps, but not RE.

***
This throws reminds me of something I’ve seen floating around in groups of people with young kids. It is a tweet that says something like:

“If you’re wondering what things are like for parents right now, someone in my online moms group invited everyone to a Facebook event that is just going to an empty field and screaming and a LOT of people  RSVPed yes.”




This thread reminds me of frustrating conversations with my toddler where I try to reason with someone who literally hasn’t developed the mental capacity for logical thought yet.

How many times do I have to repeat myself that we aren’t eating cookies for breakfast?

How many times have we clarified that FIRE isn’t a career or a means to support one’s family, that working to put a roof over your head isn’t FIRE, that FIRE doesn’t mean sitting around at home doing nothing and contributing nothing?

Cookies still aren’t on the menu no matter how many times you ask. Sorry, kid.

[DadJokes]

And, you all have a lot to learn from me.

After 11 pages of this thread, I'm going to have to disagree with that.

This thread reminds me of frustrating conversations with my toddler where I try to reason with someone who literally hasn’t developed the mental capacity for logical thought yet.

How many times do I have to repeat myself that we aren’t eating cookies for breakfast?

I take those two statements personally. My three-year-old child exhibits more logical thought than I've seen from OP, and I absolutely eat cookies for breakfast if they're available.

[bacchi]

Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.

[ysette9]

It takes creativity and introspection. It takes a backbone to be willing to buck trends and forge your own path (or just not care as much what others think). Other bloggers like LivingAFI have talked about how it can be hard to pull the plug and face the hard work of figuring it what really makes you tick and how you want to spend your limited time on this earth. In some ways it is easier to just put one foot in front of the other and stick to the script of what society expects of you.

[Moustachienne]

Retired Syd!  Loved her blog!  So many great insights about the psychology of retirement.  Last post March 2020 because she's living her awesome life, I hope. https://retiredsyd.typepad.com/retirement_a_fulltime_job/

Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.

[matchewed]

Right. Going against the social gradient is hard and uncomfortable. Being FIRE at an early age may create an environment of isolation if you let it due to this fact. But the key thing is if you let it. An individual is now more than ever responsible for setting the beat of their own drum and marching to it when they FIRE.

BTW

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

Not quite. Married, Exactly 40, Working on it, semi-introverted, 60% Cube Jockey/40% wrench turner, FI not yet RE

[Dicey]

Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.

OMG, I love love love RetiredSyd! She used to have a fantastic blog, but her postings have dwindled to nothing. Still good content there.

https://retiredsyd.typepad.com/retirement_a_fulltime_job/

Glad to know she's still doing her thing.
 

[charis]

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

I am FIRE.

you dont have time to read and respond to post b/c you have a business to run and a job to work

YOU ARE NOT FIRE

FI perhaps, but not RE.

***
This throws reminds me of something I’ve seen floating around in groups of people with young kids. It is a tweet that says something like:

“If you’re wondering what things are like for parents right now, someone in my online moms group invited everyone to a Facebook event that is just going to an empty field and screaming and a LOT of people  RSVPed yes.”




This thread reminds me of frustrating conversations with my toddler where I try to reason with someone who literally hasn’t developed the mental capacity for logical thought yet.

How many times do I have to repeat myself that we aren’t eating cookies for breakfast?

How many times have we clarified that FIRE isn’t a career or a means to support one’s family, that working to put a roof over your head isn’t FIRE, that FIRE doesn’t mean sitting around at home doing nothing and contributing nothing?

Cookies still aren’t on the menu no matter how many times you ask. Sorry, kid.

The OP isn't even FI, much less RE. He's stated multiple times that he has enough money to never work again, but only if he didn't have a family to support and wanted to be an antisocial hermit (ie, squirreling away in a one-bedroom apartment and living off his pile of nuts) who never did anything or went anywhere.

And he thinks that is what everyone on this forum is doing or planning to do, because he hasn't bothered to read any of it because he's too busy working.  You see?

[LD_TAndK]

Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.

Highly recommend people read the article and all the comments. They're talking past one another but I found it enlightening to what's happening here.

Also, Financial Samurai sells a $97 e-book??? Sleazy self-help guru vibes to the max.

[Skyhigh]

Severity of FIRE

I have a college friend who achieved fire at 45 years of age. Throughout his adult life he had been married twice and experienced the normal ups and downs. When I last spoke with him he was engaged to a beautiful intelligent accomplished person. His construction business was taking off incredibly. He had built himself a very nice house in an upper middle-class neighborhood. He had finally found success and was on his way.

I lost touch with him for a time. I tried reaching out via his cell phone to learn that it was disconnected. I sent a letter to his home, and it was returned. He had disappeared from the Internet. I couldn't find his business license, address, or any other evidence that he still existed. Eventually, I sent a letter to his sister and she sent a reply.

It turns out that my dear friend had done something dramatic soon after I last spoke with him. For reasons only known to him, he broke off his engagement, closed his booming business, and systematically sold off all of his assets. He choose to FIRE in a halfway house located in one of the desert states far from his home. Every month $500 is auto drafted from his account and sent to the organization that maintains a bunk bed, food, and some medical oversight.

He spends his days wandering the streets intoxicated. At night he returns to the halfway house. Why he chose this life I will probably never know. Clearly his plan was/is to consume his days in this manner until he has expired. He chose an alcoholic version of FIRE instead of his blooming full and successful life.

Any one of us could achieve FIRE right now. The question is what is your FIRE life going to look like? How much risk are you willing to accept? How long will it last? What is the level of severity are you willing to accept or be exposed to? I'm certain that my friend does not plan to live very long in retirement. He chose a reduced duration of his retirement through his lifestyle choices. The tragedy of my lost friend is something I will probably never understand.

People achieve FIRE all the time. It is mostly about the sacrifices.

[Skyhigh]

I believe that MMM retired on $25,000 long ago, however, how can you believe that he isn't earning much more now through his website, appearances, and accomplishments? He is not a Buddhist monk. The same with FS. They both hold control over their time but they both clearly work.

The guy who started the tiny house movement began his blog from a 150 square foot "house" built upon a flatbed trailer but ended up moving into a regular home because living in a tiny house was an unsustainable model. He got married and they started having children. Lives change. Harsh FIRE plans can not.

[lhamo]

It makes my stomach turn that you would use a story like this solely to push your own twisted narrative of how awful FIRE is.

Your "friend" did not achieve FIRE.  He clearly had some kind of breakdown, and that was most likely rooted in some type of major trauma or pain that all of his "success" did not allow him to outrun.  Maybe if you had been a real friend to him, someone he could turn to to be truthful and vulnerable when he discovered that all his striving was not bringing him the happiness he desired, maybe then he could have found a different way out of his pain.  I wonder how much all of the praise you and others gave him for achieving the outward appearances of a "successful" person actually drove him to even deeper despair.

[Skyhigh]

I know that you guys get frustrated with me due to my lack of responses. I only have perhaps 20 minutes in the morning before I have other things to focus on. My apologies.

[charis]

Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire

[matchewed]

Severity of FIRE

I have a college friend who achieved fire at 45 years of age. Throughout his adult life he had been married twice and experienced the normal ups and downs. When I last spoke with him he was engaged to a beautiful intelligent accomplished person. His construction business was taking off incredibly. He had built himself a very nice house in an upper middle-class neighborhood. He had finally found success and was on his way.

I lost touch with him for a time. I tried reaching out via his cell phone to learn that it was disconnected. I sent a letter to his home, and it was returned. He had disappeared from the Internet. I couldn't find his business license, address, or any other evidence that he still existed. Eventually, I sent a letter to his sister and she sent a reply.

It turns out that my dear friend had done something dramatic soon after I last spoke with him. For reasons only known to him, he broke off his engagement, closed his booming business, and systematically sold off all of his assets. He choose to FIRE in a halfway house located in one of the desert states far from his home. Every month $500 is auto drafted from his account and sent to the organization that maintains a bunk bed, food, and some medical oversight.

He spends his days wandering the streets intoxicated. At night he returns to the halfway house. Why he chose this life I will probably never know. Clearly his plan was/is to consume his days in this manner until he has expired. He chose an alcoholic version of FIRE instead of his blooming full and successful life.

Any one of us could achieve FIRE right now. The question is what is your FIRE life going to look like? How much risk are you willing to accept? How long will it last? What is the level of severity are you willing to accept or be exposed to? I'm certain that my friend does not plan to live very long in retirement. He chose a reduced duration of his retirement through his lifestyle choices. The tragedy of my lost friend is something I will probably never understand.

People achieve FIRE all the time. It is mostly about the sacrifices.

It isn't about sacrifice. It's about kennen (shamelessly stolen from Jacob at ERE and is the German word for "to know in a familiar way") in regards to the life you want and how much that will cost. You're right that someone can buy a tent, a hatchet, and some booze and walk off into the woods and be "FIRE" their skill sets would have to be quite broad and robust in order to pull it off but it is possible.

More than likely some people are realizing that beyond the first few levels of Mazlow's hierarchy of needs capitalist society doesn't provide much for the top end. It seems that you'd probably disagree and find that identity and self actualization within a corporate society. Many people don't. So they pursue their yum elsewhere.

Your friend broke. That's it. He didn't FIRE and your deliberate twisting isn't a fair engagement in the conversation.

[neo von retorch]

It's a blatant misunderstanding of cause and effect.

Friend breaks, sells/quits everything, severs relationships, and then lives in an unemployed manner where costs are low, but so is quality of life.

To somehow blame the choices he made on being "financially independent, retiring early" is completely nonsensical.

The egg didn't lay the chicken.

[neo von retorch]

I think you meant "vein", but "vain" kind of works, too...

[Skyhigh]

The case for affluent FIRE

A budget is like going on a financial diet. It is necessary initially to attain financial health however most are unable to maintain the restrictions indefinitely. Humans tend not to do well when faced with unlimited artificial restrictions such as a harsh budget. We have good days and bad. Eventually, someone will come home with a $300 jacket. When the budgeters are married that means the risk of failure is doubled since there are now two people in this equation that share equal responsibility.

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend. On paper, I'm sure it looks feasible and maybe even survivable in the short term. However, it should not be planned to last forever. Eventually, someone will crack. Someone else on this thread made the comment that fire does not have to be so anemic. FIRE should probably be pursued to a healthy financial level. Squirreling away a small pile of nuts and expecting to feed off of that for 40 or more years is an unlikely and grim prospect from my perspective. A great way to extend the life of that plan is to continue working at something.

Our mentor MMM is a great example of how to live active FIRE. He does not sit patiently at home counting the days until he can withdraw his next meager monthly portion. He is out there trying to improve his financial situation. A better approach to FIRE is to combine frugality with active financial pursuits (work) in hopes of ensuring an increasing budget and then a more active successful life in FIRE.

[DadJokes]

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

[charis]

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

And literally no made the case against an affluent FIRE. The whole forum is premised on planning for a retirement based on desired spending levels. People are encouraged to cut pointless spending, not live in poverty.

These problems are in your head, not on this board.

[boarder42]

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

FIREd 2 days ago with an 90k planned spend and due to some FIRE hobbies we'll have a WR sub 3%.

Also we're a family of 4 with kids 1 and 3 and I'm an extrovert.

Basically everything you're presuppositing is incorrect.

[Skyhigh]

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.

[Skyhigh]

Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire

I disagree, my friend made the same choice as many of you to intentionally abandon a productive life for a self-centered meager existence. He achieved FIRE and is living it in his way.

[matchewed]

Yeah I'd say this forum has an opposite problem to what you are saying. Many people here are profligate spenders and probably don't question their spending within the context of weighing what makes them happy versus what is good for the world/community/long term survival of humans/long term survival of the earth.

I'd argue many more people stop very quickly at the what makes me happy and set their sights on that rather than these restrictive statements you seem to perceive. Do you have solid examples of what you are talking about?

[charis]

Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire

I disagree, my friend made the same choice as many of you to intentionally abandon a productive life for a self-centered meager existence. He achieved FIRE and is living it in his way.

No, he has a disease and is unable to function, and no one is proposing this type of existence anywhere on this forum. If you can't see the difference, you are not thinking critically, either by obstinance or you don't have the capacity.

[bacchi]

Yeah I'd say this forum has an opposite problem to what you are saying. Many people here are profligate spenders and probably don't question their spending within the context of weighing what makes them happy versus what is good for the world/community/long term survival of humans/long term survival of the earth.

I'd argue many more people stop very quickly at the what makes me happy and set their sights on that rather than these restrictive statements you seem to perceive. Do you have solid examples of what you are talking about?

boarder42 literally just wrote that he'll be spending only $90k! He probably doesn't even have a 2nd home on the beach either.

If that's not leanFIRE, I don't know what is.

[Dicey]

I know that you guys get frustrated with me due to my lack of responses. I only have perhaps 20 minutes in the morning before I have other things to focus on. My apologies.

If you were really FIRE, you could spend as much time as you want on the internet, or anywhere you please.

It seems you rarely venture outside your journal to help anyone else, either. Though, perhaps it's best that your viewpoints are voluntarily self-contained.

I think for most self-enlightened mustachians who really, truly want(ed) to help, this thread has just become a source of bewildered amusement and perhaps a little conversation amongst ourselves. No need to apologize, we're fine.