Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America

[Skyhigh]

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

I think we made a breakthrough here!   He OP is unhappy because he wasn't born into an elite family.   Since we can't change who our parents are, I guess the OP is screwed.

Like Malcat, I started out from lower-middle-class to poor. The school system told me that I could become a class migrant and have a better life through higher education. My dream was to escape the menial life of a laborer by going to college and becoming trained, educated, and experienced. Alas, the result of my efforts did not provide for the life I dreamed of and I had to FIRE instead.

FIRE did eventually create an income situation that greatly exceeded what I could possibly earn in my intended profession but it can never replace the personal satisfaction of becoming a posh urban earn, save, spend, professional. I also had hoped to provide an example of my kids to follow of how to escape the manual labor trap as well. In my experience, there is a social element to getting one of the plumb jobs that they don't tell you about in college or high school. Fewer than 5% are successful at becoming class migrants.

The irony is that an electrician can earn more than an accountant these days. At least it seems that we are heading that way.

[Metalcat]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You have a really fucked up view of work.

I get that you don't enjoy your real estate work, but maybe don't be a blatant classis to snob about it and totally disrespectful to people who work those kinds of jobs.

Also, in what universe do self employed people do more work they don't want to do the employees? In fact, don't we have tons of people here dreaming of being self employed so that they won't be forced to do as much shit that they don't want to do?

We get it, you don't enjoy the job you chose to do. WE FUCKING GET IT. But that has nothing to do with FIRE.

You have yet to convince anyone that your case is anything beyond a dude who hates his job.

[Skyhigh]

In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Are you on drugs?

Nancy Reagan told us to say "No" to drugs.   If you are an accountant most companies expect you to do that. They would not ask you to fix the heater. As a business owner, you are exposed to all the tasks of a business. Even the ones you are ill-suited for. I would rather fix the heater than negotiate with an angry anxiety-filled mother for example.

[Skyhigh]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.

Please explain, do you mean Fired" as in fired from a job? I have the means to do nothing every day if I wanted. I have spent many long stretches of idle wasted days as a classicly unencumbered van-life FIRE person also.

In my 20's "van-life" was considered to be homelessness. It wasn't a cool fad.

Financially Independent - "The status of having enough income to pay one's living expenses for the rest of one's live without employment or being dependent upon others".

Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age".

I very much quality as FIRE. My point is that I have continued work functions as a means of staving off boredom and providing an example to my children of how adults are supposed to go to work every day and strive towards their dreams. My dreams were of a professional nature. Yesterday I shoveled snow.

[seattlecyclone]

No, you never did the early retirement thing. You were laid off and decided to go into self-employment. That's not retirement, that's a career change. FIRE implies you have the freedom to not do self-employment if you don't enjoy it. There's a wide world of other things to do that aren't "long stretches of idle wasted days." It's not a binary choice between unenjoyable manual labor vs. sitting around on the couch.

[Skyhigh]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You have a really fucked up view of work.

I get that you don't enjoy your real estate work, but maybe don't be a blatant classis to snob about it and totally disrespectful to people who work those kinds of jobs.

Also, in what universe do self employed people do more work they don't want to do the employees? In fact, don't we have tons of people here dreaming of being self employed so that they won't be forced to do as much shit that they don't want to do?

We get it, you don't enjoy the job you chose to do. WE FUCKING GET IT. But that has nothing to do with FIRE.

You have yet to convince anyone that your case is anything beyond a dude who hates his job.

I believe that my position does have a lot to do with FIRE. Imagine the lottery winner or one-hit-wonder musician. Once they reach a place of financial independence their motivation commonly leaves. The resulting decay exposes one to all kinds of mental and lifestyle complications. People who retire early are removed from the flow of life. They are often estranged from their peers. Their purpose becomes obscured. Self-esteem erodes.

Once cherished rare opportunities to pursue a hobby become a commonplace daily routine. The days blur into one another and the benefit becomes a curse. As previously determined you are an outlier. You hold a special determination to overcome external and internal challenges. Most others do not have the same resolve and sink into the abyss of doing nothing.  I see it all the time. I also experienced it.

People delude themselves into the fantasy of doing nothing. They convince themselves that they can retire at 35 on a million dollars of savings without considering the unlimited opportunities that life offers to squash their savings. They surrender their professional momentum with the assumption that their industry will welcome them back if needed when the reverse is often the case.

We have precious years of being young. It compels people to abandon their professions to travel the road less traveled without understanding the potential consequences it may bring. My advice is to consider staying the course. Remain healthy and you can blow 30 years in retirement doing that stuff. However, it loses its appeal quickly.

[youngwildandfree]

I agree with you that moving classes is more challenging than we were taught to believe as children.

I think you have been more seriously mislead regarding your perceived differences between the lives of "professionals" and the "working class".

It's frankly really gross that you find manual labor humiliating. I understand wanting to focus on tasks that are more mentally challenging or provide more personal satisfaction for you. But if your whole argument is that you are secretly mentally "elite" but have been forced to work for a living...ew. People born wealthy are not more intelligent that people born poor. They are not better. They are not wiser. They have access to better education/networks/tools at an early age. But many wealthy people choose to do manual labor because they enjoy it and/or they are good at it.

The whole point of FIRE is that money buys freedom. Not that money makes you better. If you used your freedom to do something you didn't enjoy...oh well. You learned what you don't like. If you never had freedom because you didn't have money (what I'm reading from your posts), then you're just coming on here to say you hated your life because you weren't free to pursue all your passions. That I can understand. If you think the universe/god/circumstances made a mistake and forced you to do manual labor when you were too smart for that life...that's very narcissistic.

[lhamo]

Here's an idea -- instead of trying to piggyback on the success of Pete and those of us who have found the FIREd life to be great for us, why don't you start your own blog where you can share and develop your philosophy to your heart's content?  It is already pretty clear that your message is falling flat here and that you don't really want to engage meaningfully with anyone who has a different view.  So go find the people who share yours.  See how far you get with that.  Probably as far as you did with your fantasy career.

[Metalcat]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You have a really fucked up view of work.

I get that you don't enjoy your real estate work, but maybe don't be a blatant classis to snob about it and totally disrespectful to people who work those kinds of jobs.

Also, in what universe do self employed people do more work they don't want to do the employees? In fact, don't we have tons of people here dreaming of being self employed so that they won't be forced to do as much shit that they don't want to do?

We get it, you don't enjoy the job you chose to do. WE FUCKING GET IT. But that has nothing to do with FIRE.

You have yet to convince anyone that your case is anything beyond a dude who hates his job.

I believe that my position does have a lot to do with FIRE. Imagine the lottery winner or one-hit-wonder musician. Once they reach a place of financial independence their motivation commonly leaves. The resulting decay exposes one to all kinds of mental and lifestyle complications. People who retire early are removed from the flow of life. They are often estranged from their peers. Their purpose becomes obscured. Self-esteem erodes.

Once cherished rare opportunities to pursue a hobby become a commonplace daily routine. The days blur into one another and the benefit becomes a curse. As previously determined you are an outlier. You hold a special determination to overcome external and internal challenges. Most others do not have the same resolve and sink into the abyss of doing nothing.  I see it all the time. I also experienced it.

People delude themselves into the fantasy of doing nothing. They convince themselves that they can retire at 35 on a million dollars of savings without considering the unlimited opportunities that life offers to squash their savings. They surrender their professional momentum with the assumption that their industry will welcome them back if needed when the reverse is often the case.

We have precious years of being young. It compels people to abandon their professions to travel the road less traveled without understanding the potential consequences it may bring. My advice is to consider staying the course. Remain healthy and you can blow 30 years in retirement doing that stuff. However, it loses its appeal quickly.

You keep saying the same nonsensical thing over and over and over again.

No one NEEDS to do nothing in retirement.

If you lack motivation, then there are ways to work on that. It's really not hard. If you care AT ALL to improve your life and happiness, there are countless resources available to do so.

But you just ignore them.

That's not FIRE ruining your life, that's you refusing to do absolutely anything to try and improve it.

You said that you came here for advice, but you ignore the advice over and over and over again, and just keep repeating the same complaint over and over and over again.

You will never ever convince anyone here that FIRE ruined your life. You have wasted a huge amount of time trying to convince us of this, but you will just keep smashing your own head against the same wall.

On the flip side, we are ready and able to provide you with advice and resources to improve your situation, and yet you seem to have literally zero interest.

What do you want??

If it's sympathy, you've already been given plenty.
If it's compassion, you've been given that too.
If it's us to agree with you?? Never gonna fucking happen.

So what do you want????

[charis]

He wants to keep smashing his head against the wall obviously.  He's not here for an honest dialogue. He's here to proselytize and that means not answering questions that stray from the message, especially when you point out logical holes.  I've been in discussions with a few very religious folks who acted in a similar manner.

[Skyhigh]

No, you never did the early retirement thing. You were laid off and decided to go into self-employment. That's not retirement, that's a career change. FIRE implies you have the freedom to not do self-employment if you don't enjoy it. There's a wide world of other things to do that aren't "long stretches of idle wasted days." It's not a binary choice between unenjoyable manual labor vs. sitting around on the couch.

At 25 I wisely bought a four-plex. At first, I needed a roommate but due to rising rents, I eventually was able to remain in the unit myself. The first year or two I worked a seasonal job as a bush pilot and lived upon my savings and rental income. My miserly tendencies permitted me to cut my expenses down to the nub. I sold my newer truck and took to riding a bike around town much of the time. The four-plex became my "Thoreau's cabin in the woods".  I spent my days going to the library, writing in a journal, and taking cross-country ski classes. My expenses were tightly controlled and I was happy with my minimalist style of life as my social life continued to shrink.

Others my age were at work all the time so I ended up hanging out with those who were also retired. Their median age was 70. I would meet them for lunch at the deli and listen to them complain about politics. Sometimes I would even get up at 5 am to meet them for coffee at McDonald's. Eventually, the math made it so that I realized that I did not have to return to work a job ever again. So long as I kept my costs to a minimum degree I would experience a rising income and a slowly improving lifestyle as the rents continued to exceed my financial needs.

Once that reality completely reached my consciousness I was struck with terror. I had figured out how to do nothing with my life and it was very alluring. Imagine closing the door to the possibility of having a career, family, new experiences, and adventure. I could see the decay of will that had already taken hold, and did not want that trend to continue. In a rash moment, I walked away from that safe life and straight into the uncontrolled current of consumption and financial servitude.

Thankfully the industry had recovered and I was able to secure a low-paying full-time corporate slave job in the city. My financial position reversed as paying rent consumed much of my salary. I had a roommate again and was back in the flow of life. Soon after I found a wife. We started having kids and I lost complete control of my finances and ability to find a safe financial harbor as an urban career slave. It too was terrifying but I had found life again.

I have had other experiences with FIRE too. Prior to 25, I lived in my truck for a year and a half trying to find a meaningful job in my career. Today they call it "Van-Life". I did not like it at all.

[Skyhigh]

He wants to keep smashing his head against the wall obviously.  He's not here for an honest dialogue. He's here to proselytize and that means not answering questions that stray from the message, especially when you point out logical holes.  I've been in discussions with a few very religious folks who acted in a similar manner.

It is also possible that you wish to hold onto your FIRE religion at all costs. "Dialogue" goes both ways.

Tell us of your FIRE experiences. It is important to add: Age of FIRE, were you satisfied with your career prior to FIRE, do you have children, do you live in the city or country, are you from the working class?

[jim555]

Troll keeps trolling.

[Villanelle]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

[Villanelle]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.

Please explain, do you mean Fired" as in fired from a job? I have the means to do nothing every day if I wanted. I have spent many long stretches of idle wasted days as a classicly unencumbered van-life FIRE person also.

In my 20's "van-life" was considered to be homelessness. It wasn't a cool fad.

Financially Independent - "The status of having enough income to pay one's living expenses for the rest of one's live without employment or being dependent upon others".

Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age".

I very much quality as FIRE. My point is that I have continued work functions as a means of staving off boredom and providing an example to my children of how adults are supposed to go to work every day and strive towards their dreams. My dreams were of a professional nature. Yesterday I shoveled snow.

Many people have explained this in this thread.  It's clear you just don't want to understand because it doesn't fit with your narrative.  But Im a glutton for punishment, so....

YOU WERE STILL WORKING.  Therefore, you were not retired, therefore you were not FIREd. 

Not working at the job you want doesn't mean retired.  Working for yourself instead of for some faceless corporation doesn't mean you are retired.  Owning and actively working rental properties is WORKING.  From your ow definition, you did not "Cease to function professionally".  You were a landlord and property manager, and doing those things for money.  So you were a professional landlord and property manager, which means you had a professional function. 

[Skyhigh]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.

However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.

When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives?  It is just my opinion.

[Skyhigh]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.

Please explain, do you mean Fired" as in fired from a job? I have the means to do nothing every day if I wanted. I have spent many long stretches of idle wasted days as a classicly unencumbered van-life FIRE person also.

In my 20's "van-life" was considered to be homelessness. It wasn't a cool fad.

Financially Independent - "The status of having enough income to pay one's living expenses for the rest of one's live without employment or being dependent upon others".

Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age".

I very much quality as FIRE. My point is that I have continued work functions as a means of staving off boredom and providing an example to my children of how adults are supposed to go to work every day and strive towards their dreams. My dreams were of a professional nature. Yesterday I shoveled snow.

Many people have explained this in this thread.  It's clear you just don't want to understand because it doesn't fit with your narrative.  But Im a glutton for punishment, so....

YOU WERE STILL WORKING.  Therefore, you were not retired, therefore you were not FIREd. 

Not working at the job you want doesn't mean retired.  Working for yourself instead of for some faceless corporation doesn't mean you are retired.  Owning and actively working rental properties is WORKING.  From your ow definition, you did not "Cease to function professionally".  You were a landlord and property manager, and doing those things for money.  So you were a professional landlord and property manager, which means you had a professional function.

MMM still does work functions. Brushing your teeth is also a form of work but for most of us, it is not a career. Ripping up carpet and repainting a bedroom is certainly work, however, if someone was a neurologist is that a good use of their education and skills?

Most here seem to be accomplished urban professionals who are proposing to voluntarily cease their contribution to the world early so that they can tend to a flock of chickens. In my experience, that choice comes with a cost.

[nereo]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.

However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.

When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives?  It is just my opinion.

It’s clear you have conflated being retired with doing nothing, and that you are correlating the need to work with having a clear purpose in life.

Understanding that both of those are completely false would help you understand why you appear to be so disillusioned with the FIRE community and why you are so unhappy with your choices.

In 7+ pages of this thread I’ve seen you take almost not accountability for your choices, and I’ve heard a constant refrain from you that you had no real choices but the ones you ultimately took. Perversely, you blame your own apparent success for your unhappiness, rather than what seems so painfully obvious to all other participants - that you ‘succeeded’ in areas that held little interest to you, and you frequently chose to do things you openly distain.  There is little wonder you ultimately find things to be somewhat lacking.

Worse, there’s a number of people who are actively trying to help you through these issues.  It’s maddening to watch you sidestep , dodge and ignore repeated questions and comments from these very thoughtful and skilled posters.

Only you can decide to live a wonderful life. You have so many things inherently in your favor it’s ridiculous. To reiterate about a dozen other posters, FIRE is not what has made you unhappy. It doesnt’ even seem like you have ever been truly FIRE.

[Skyhigh]

The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients. I understand the appeal. You are miserable and worn out in your overworked professional lives. 

The idea of lazy days selling turnips at the farmer's market is not a complete picture. Van life can lose its charm fast. Yesterday I was reading an article in the USA Today and there is actually a term for those who return to work after retirement. It is called a "Boomerang Employee". Sometimes it means going back to a previous employer, however often it means putting in the blue vest.

That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.

[Kris]

The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients. I understand the appeal. You are miserable and worn out in your overworked professional lives. 

The idea of lazy days selling turnips at the farmer's market is not a complete picture. Van life can lose its charm fast. Yesterday I was reading an article in the USA Today and there is actually a term for those who return to work after retirement. It is called a "Boomerang Employee". Sometimes it means going back to a previous employer, however often it means putting in the blue vest.

That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.

Get a load of this guy, explaining FIRE to a bunch of people who are way better at it than he is.

[seattlecyclone]

Right, I choose not to do nothing.

There's a miles-long list of "not-nothing" things you can do with your time. Why did you choose to spend so many years on property management, a thing you have made abundantly clear you dislike? Either you were forced into that because you didn't have enough money to be financially independent, or worse, you were FI and you chose unhappiness with your own free will.

That's why the rest of us continue to be so incredulous about your self-described FIRE status. To us, FIRE is incongruous with feeling forced into much of anything where paid labor is concerned. FIRE is having freedom to choose to spend your time with zero regard given to how much money you'll earn doing it. Some of us think a life of leisure sounds pretty nice, but that's hardly a requirement for FIRE. If you want to spend your early retirement doing useful things, do that, but do useful things that you enjoy. Don't give us this baloney of how you were FIRE while also having little option but to do self-employment that you hated. That's a contradiction to our understanding of the basic definition of FIRE, and you're not going to convince anyone here otherwise.

[Skyhigh]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.

However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.

When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives?  It is just my opinion.

It’s clear you have conflated being retired with doing nothing, and that you are correlating the need to work with having a clear purpose in life.

Understanding that both of those are completely false would help you understand why you appear to be so disillusioned with the FIRE community and why you are so unhappy with your choices.

In 7+ pages of this thread I’ve seen you take almost not accountability for your choices, and I’ve heard a constant refrain from you that you had no real choices but the ones you ultimately took. Perversely, you blame your own apparent success for your unhappiness, rather than what seems so painfully obvious to all other participants - that you ‘succeeded’ in areas that held little interest to you, and you frequently chose to do things you openly distain.  There is little wonder you ultimately find things to be somewhat lacking.

Worse, there’s a number of people who are actively trying to help you through these issues.  It’s maddening to watch you sidestep , dodge and ignore repeated questions and comments from these very thoughtful and skilled posters.

Only you can decide to live a wonderful life. You have so many things inherently in your favor it’s ridiculous. To reiterate about a dozen other posters, FIRE is not what has made you unhappy. It doesnt’ even seem like you have ever been truly FIRE.

I am saying a lot of things.

One of them is that I was laid off from my professional preference by a company that ceased to function.

I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career.

Read my posts again. I have been completely retired several times at a young age and experienced a lot of negative things.

Everything in life has its positives and negatives. Even FIRE. Many here want to perpetuate the myth that FIRE is fault-free.

Once my financial world started to improve through FIRE and my industry recovered I tried to return to my career. FIRE made it difficult. Since then I have reached a personal maximum age and must concede defeat.

Have you lived a FIRE life? Some here claimed to have a few years with it, but often the true cost will not be felt until you are past your working years and looking back. Until you have lived it for an extended time it is a fantasy.

[Villanelle]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.

However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.

When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives?  It is just my opinion.

First, you CHOSE TO KEEP WORKING.  NOT FIRE!!!!!!

Second, the bolded is ridiculous.  FIRE doesn't rob someone of their drive.  If you ever retire (because no, you are not retired/FIREd) and you decide so sit on your ass and do nothing, that isn't FIRE.  That's you.  That said, knowing yourself is important and for someone who lacks the discipline, drive, or ambition to stay busy in meaningful ways in FIRE probably shouldn't FIR or at least not until they've worked with a therapist to sort out their goals and motivations. 

So yeah, I don't think retirement is a great fit for everyone, or at least not without a lot of self-reflection an internal work first.  That's very different than saying the FIRE is bad though.  It's like saying credit cards are bad.  No, they are not.  But someone who doesn't have the discipline to use them wisely should avoid them, at least until they work on the discipline needed not to use them to overspend, and the psychology of why the overspend in the first place.

So just because you can't use a tool safely or wisely doesn't mean you should condone it for everyone.  The problem isn't with the tool; it's with the user.

[nereo]

The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients.

No, it’s not.  I think that’s the core problem - you think you are discussing post-FIRE disappointment, when in reality the issues you repeatedly describe are only tangentially related.

That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.

Running out of money is a financial failure. Running out of motivation, getting bored and losing contact has little to do with being retired - and has everything to do with your decisions and what you choose to do with your life. One can be deeply unhappy while retired. One can be deeply unhappy while earning a decent wage. The two conditions share many similarities, and they have nothing to do with the amount of money you have in your bank account. Early retirement won’t solve your problems (as has been discussed countless times on this forum) - but neither will going back to work

[Moustachienne]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."   

[sui generis]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Indeed.  FIRE is not a way to "provide" for a family it's something you can choose to do if you have *already* provided.

The disconnect here is just. so. profound. 

I was going to say it's like we're speaking a different language but it's not that simple.  The worst part is, we all recognize the disconnect, but skyhigh keeps insisting there is not one.  If the other person in a conversation can't recognize the disconnect, progress is not possible. 

[lutorm]

I'm very confused, because it seems you are willing to work very hard, but only on things you dislike? You mow lawns, which you hate, but when it comes to your airline career, you dismiss getting hired by regionals because your goal is to fly for a major airline.

Generally, having a career depends on taking gradual and successive steps that lead you in the direction you want, not sitting on your ass complaining that no one wants to hire you for your dream job. I know many pilots who have struggled for years, accumulating experience in various not-so-desirable positions before they finally got hired for their dream job. In fact, it seems to be pretty much the norm.

You don't seem to be willing to do that. You were laid off and had to take another job to pay the bills. That happens. But now you say you're financially independent, so why aren't you out looking for whatever flying job you can find in order to start re-building the experience that will get you heading in the right direction?

The fact that you are not willing to do that and prefers to sit around saying external factors caused your situation makes it seem like you're self-sabotaging in order to not have to face the possibility that maybe your failed career is due to your own actions.

For what it's worth, I also grew up working class, was the first person in my family to go to college, and, with hindsight, did not have the benefits that someone who's from a family with higher education background does. But one step led to another and I'm very happy with where I am today. Not everything went according to plan (to the extent that I had one), but taking opportunities that presented themselves led me to a good place. It's absolutely true that people with working-class backgrounds have disadvantages, but given how receptive to feedback you have shown yourself to be in this thread I suspect your personality might be a bigger obstacle to convincing hiring managers that you're the man/woman for the job.

[Villanelle]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

You don't know what it means because it is nonsensical.  OP wants to be FIRE so he can blame is problems on FIRE.  But he's saying, "I chose self-employment as the [supposedly] only option to provide for my family when my dream career failed and I was too lazy or unmotivated or intent on martyrdom to do anything other than default to something convenient but that I hated." 

He's very clearly  saying he wasn't Financially Independent because he says he used this to provide for his family. And yet he still claims to be FIREd.

[lhamo]

Not going to bother to even try to dialogue with the OP as it is clear he is not willing/able to benefit from any attempt to provide a different point of view or experience.

However, since many are watching/engaging with this thread, maybe we can divert it toward providing links to alternative resources that MIGHT help anyone inclined to sink into the morass the OP finds himself in.

This recent episode of James Altucher's podcast has an interesting discussion of the benefits of orienting oneself toward gains (improvements/achievements) rather than gaps (losses/disappointments) -- OP seems to be firmly rooted in gap-based thinking...

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9SRW5feDZ6Uw/episode/ZTQ3Mzc0NWUtN2Y1ZC00ZWZlLTkyZjgtMTJjY2FkNWIxOWQx?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwj4qPGd1vX0AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQCg&hl=en

[charis]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Indeed.  FIRE is not a way to "provide" for a family it's something you can choose to do if you have *already* provided.

The disconnect here is just. so. profound.   

Yeah, what is going on here? It feels like a language barrier of some sort.  Maybe OP is thinking of being able to scrape by on rental income by having minimal expenses for a single person? 

And you were never "retired" several times if you couldn't provide for your family while not working.  Being FI means being able to provide for the lifestyle that you choose, including a family if you want one and whatever else you value like travel or tuition, without ever having to be employed again. So if you worked a labor job to provide for your family, that's not any part of FIRE.

Most people here plan/save for more than they will ever need and have back up plans. 

[Metalcat]

@Skyhigh

I officially give up. You are remarkably committed to a version of reality that keeps you miserable. That's very sad.

If you ever actually want to work on your problems and learn how to live a happier, healthier, better life, feel free to PM me.

Otherwise I'm out.

[FIRE 20/20]

The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients. I understand the appeal. You are miserable and worn out in your overworked professional lives. 

The idea of lazy days selling turnips at the farmer's market is not a complete picture. Van life can lose its charm fast. Yesterday I was reading an article in the USA Today and there is actually a term for those who return to work after retirement. It is called a "Boomerang Employee". Sometimes it means going back to a previous employer, however often it means putting in the blue vest.

That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.

I have been FIREd for about 3 years, from ages 42-45.  They have, unequivocally, been by far the best years of my life.  I had been on the fast track in my little part of megacorp straddling the line between management and technical work.  I was in various roles like "Chief Engineer" when they needed someone who could interact with our government customer in a technical role, or "Project Manager" when they needed someone technical who could do the planning to get a project up and running.  At my "peak" I was the Integration and Test Lead for one software build of a very, very large government program.  I was not in any way "miserable and worn out in (my) overworked professional (life)".  I think I maintained a good work/life balance, I had the respect of my peers and management, and I always had top results on the surveys of my employees.  I only offer this context to unequivocally state you are absolutely incorrect - many of us are not trying to escape a "miserable and ... overworked professional life."

You're also wrong that days off lose their meaning.  I volunteer as a math tutor at the library near an "alternative" school.  Most students there have had difficulties in the public school system and have this as a backup option.  I have helped students who are good at math but think they're bad at math gain confidence.  I've helped students prepare for the SAT and ACT.  I've helped students get caught up after falling behind.  This absofuckinglutely fills my days with meaning.  I also volunteer with my alma mater, helping students get internships, refine their resumes, practice job interviews, and help them make contacts that may lead to a career.  No meaning?  All the people starting their engineering career who I helped would probably disagree.

"Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up."  Hah!  I have trouble fitting in the activities I have scheduled with my friends.  Most are still working, but that just means getting together on the weekend or for dinner after they finish work.  Hobbies become boring?  I am fine-tuning a piece of music I've been learning on the piano so I can perform it.  The more I play the piano the more fun it becomes because I can play better music. 

"People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. " - Hah again!  I was bored all the time at work.  Since I FIREd?  Maybe 5 minutes in 3 years.  Maybe.  As for the money running out?  I have nearly $1M more than I FIREd with.  This year I had one of the best years of my entire life.  I'm happy, fulfilled, and want for nothing.  Yet even so I spent under 2% of my 'stache. 

I'm not saying this to brag.  I'm pretty ordinary around these parts.  Honestly when I read the amazing things that people here are doing that's one of the only times I feel jealous at this point of my life.  This forum, and the Post-FIRE subforum in particular, gives me insight into people living an even better Post-FIRE life than I'm living.  That provides motivation for me to do more. 

In another post you wrote, "We have precious years of being young."  I couldn't agree more.  I had a decision to make when I was 42.  I could spend my time in conference rooms in endless meetings, sitting at a desk staring at planning spreadsheets, or I could pursue all of the fun things, challenging things, fulfilling things, and wild ideas that life has to offer.  I decided, as you wrote, that we have precious years of being young.  I have made the youngest years of my life after the first 42 exploring a teeny-tiny fraction of the wonderful things this world has to offer. 

You have a choice.  You can continue to spread your mistaken ideas about the dangers of FIRE and lament missed opportunities.  Or you could take a new look at the opportunities still available for you to chase, and the dreams you can still fulfill.  Your choice.  If you choose the latter you have a whole group of people here who have tried to help and many who will continue to help.  Engage with us on what's still possible for you.  As someone wisely said, "We have precious years of being young".  What are you going to do with the next year of your life, which is the youngest you'll be from now on? 

[Telecaster]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.   

[nereo]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…

[Telecaster]

^ Dunno. That's why everyone is banging their heads on their keyboards. 

[nereo]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…

Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.

That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

@Skyhigh

I hear you.  FIRE is not a magic bullet.  And it is not for everyone.  For some, it could even be toxic.  A friend of mine could easily FIRE in 3-5 if she would stop spending 15 dollars a day on Starbucks, driving luxury vehicles on lease, overconsuming housing, weekly mani/pedi, weekly spa, and being just redonkulously consumerist.  But to her spending money is happiness.  I'm convinced she would be even more unhappy in early retirement, even if she could still afford "all the things".   She needs the cycle.  She rather have a long hours slog of pointless meetings, chasing borked reconciliations, and forever behind the 8-ball of a monthly/quarterly close cycle.  I was once "pretty good" at that game.  But it brought me no joy.  It was passionless.  So I stopped doing it.   Clue: I had "choices". 

FIRE is probably not for you either [for very different reasons].  I have no problem with that.  I was always kind of weird.  Square peg.  I never fit in to work/consume/die.  I never fit into [advance a career].  I fit in to FIRE.  For the first time in 40 years I fit.  I'm deeply content after 9.5 years of idleness.  You seem to be judging people who choose FIRE and are very happy with the outcome.  You also seem to be judging laborers.  My first professional job, we had a truck driver from upper crust society and an MS in Finance.  He preferred to drive a truck into oilfields and deliver barite.  He would think you sort of insane. 

So I hold nothing against you for your CHOICE to engage in self employment.  What bugs the crap out of me is  you CHOOSE to be miserable.    You have some very #firstworldproblems.  A little gratitude would probably go a long way for you.  Might even break the cycle of viewing life as a [bad thing] that happens TO you.  Surely, you would be happier if you could cultivate an attitude that you are a force of nature that is happening to the world.  And you can truly be that type of dynamo.  A layoff and real estate career isn't exactly a gun to your head.  You can choose, starting right now; happiness.  Or at least contentment.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

@Skyhigh

I hear you.  FIRE is not a magic bullet.  And it is not for everyone.  For some, it could even be toxic.  A friend of mine could easily FIRE in 3-5 if she would stop spending 15 dollars a day on Starbucks, driving luxury vehicles on lease, overconsuming housing, weekly mani/pedi, weekly spa, and being just redonkulously consumerist.  But to her spending money is happiness.  I'm convinced she would be even more unhappy in early retirement, even if she could still afford "all the things".   She needs the cycle.  She rather have a long hours slog of pointless meetings, chasing borked reconciliations, and forever behind the 8-ball of a monthly/quarterly close cycle.  I was once "pretty good" at that game.  But it brought me no joy.  It was passionless.  So I stopped doing it.   Clue: I had "choices". 

FIRE is probably not for you either [for very different reasons].  I have no problem with that.  I was always kind of weird.  Square peg.  I never fit in to work/consume/die.  I never fit into [advance a career].  I fit in to FIRE.  For the first time in 40 years I fit.  I'm deeply content after 9.5 years of idleness.  You seem to be judging people who choose FIRE and are very happy with the outcome.  You also seem to be judging laborers.  My first professional job, we had a truck driver from upper crust society and an MS in Finance.  He preferred to drive a truck into oilfields and deliver barite.  He would think you sort of insane. 

So I hold nothing against you for your CHOICE to engage in self employment.  What bugs the crap out of me is  you CHOOSE to be miserable.    You have some very #firstworldproblems.  A little gratitude would probably go a long way for you.  Might even break the cycle of viewing life as a [bad thing] that happens TO you.  Surely, you would be happier if you could cultivate an attitude that you are a force of nature that is happening to the world.  And you can truly be that type of dynamo.  A layoff and real estate career isn't exactly a gun to your head.  You can choose, starting right now; happiness.  Or at least contentment.

Want to add: I met for lunch with a member of this forum.  (I still do things in FIRE).  He is easily FI.  and chooses to keep working so long as his work is engaging.  He noted working from home during COVID has given him perspective that retirement might not be for him at all.  At least not until the kids are out of the house.  I'll note, he also chooses to pursue happiness.  Whether you are truly or FIRE or not has nothing to do with whether you CHOOSE to happy or miserable.

[boarder42]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…

Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.

That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.

Did we just solve the miscommunication?

[SailingOnASmallSailboat]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…

Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.

That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.

Did we just solve the miscommunication?

No - he states he thinks RE is "Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age"."
He's got a fixation on "professional", which I think to him means being a doctor, lawyer, or airline pilot for a major airline. All the rest doesn't count.

[FIRE 20/20]

I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…

Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.

That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.

Did we just solve the miscommunication?

No - he states he thinks RE is "Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age"."
He's got a fixation on "professional", which I think to him means being a doctor, lawyer, or airline pilot for a major airline. All the rest doesn't count.

Whatever he thinks FIRE is, it's not what most of us discuss here. 

[neo von retorch]

I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family

I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history

I do not accept volunteerism as an adequate form of employment

wasted years volunteering

taking unnecessary college classes to fill the time. I am bored of it all.

wasted years volunteering

It shouldn't happen to someone until they are much older

useless hobbies and volunteerism

So it has been said unto our ears, highly paid corporate work has value, as nothing else does.

One does not simply get respect and live a satisfying life without the appropriate pay and title to prove it.

You can retire when you're dead!

[Kris]

I cannot imagine a life where my guiding (and perhaps only) principle is that predatory capitalism is the only metric of a human's worth.

[boarder42]

I cannot imagine a life where my guiding (and perhaps only) principle is that predatory capitalism is the only metric of a human's worth.

This x10

[neo von retorch]

I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career.

[nereo]

I cannot imagine a life where my guiding (and perhaps only) principle is that predatory capitalism is the only metric of a human's worth.

What’s fascinating (in a bizarre sort of meaning) is what this would say about many of the worlds philanthropists and charity workers. Gates, Rockefeller and Carnegie had high societal worth until they quit their respective empires and pivoted towards giving their fortunes to various causes. Mother Teresa and Florence nightingale never had much societal worth.

[Adventine]

It's been quite the read. Skyhigh is committed to being a bad faith poster.


Over and out.

[ysette9]

This thread seems to be a dumpster fire (dumpster FIRE?) but it did get me thinking. With my husband joining me in FIRE as of last week officially everyone in my little family is retired. My parents retired at the traditional age and have been living it up. They go on long hikes in the countryside, eat out in restaurants and cafes, and then spend the afternoon reading or whatever other individual pursuits. My sister sold everything she owned, invested the proceeds in Vanguard, and has joined my parents. She intended to go back to work but between covid and Brexit, she was finding that tough. So she ran her numbers again and realized she didn't have to go back to work if she watched her budget closely. Who knows what the future will bring for her, but I can say with certainty that she is a lot happier than she was this time last year.

My aunt and uncle were OG mustachians way before FIRE was a term. My aunt was forced into early retirement at age 42 due to medical reasons but subsequently has made big strides with her health. She is the president of her HOA. They volunteer and donate tons to a food bank. The attend political protests. They have cruised the world more times than I can count. My uncle restores old phonographs and is a recognized expert in the subject around the world. He has his own YouTube channel where he teaches others his knowledge (my aunt does the videos). (Shameless plug!) My aunt regularly tells me she "doesn't know how I ever had time to work, life is so busy!".

On my end I feel my official FIRE only started once my littlest started at preschool earlier this year. I'm still decompressing from the shit show that was covid stuck at home with little kids, but already things are awesome in spurts. I've almost finished completely repainting the interior of the house we recently bought. I've done other house projects which has been cool learning new skills. I am baking bread. I have gotten a lot better and more adventurous with my cooking. I'm doing some indoor bouldering. I run 3-4 times a week. I love my bike. I'm reading multiple books a week in two languages. I have many other things on my list I'll get to slowly. It can be hard to fit it in around little kids, but I feel like I have a long list of fun things to play and not enough time to get to them all.

So anyway, point being that I would consider myself as coming from a FIRE family like OP has said he considers his family to be FIRE. The difference being everyone around me is really HAPPY about their lot in life and doing lots of fun stuff. For my aunt in particular it is cool seeing her get more recognition and leadership experience with her volunteer stuff than she ever did in her career. She probably could have been awesome in the corporate world if there had been more opportunities for women than teacher-secretary-nurse back when she was young.

[Fru-Gal]

That's really inspiring and reassuring, @ysette9!

[Psychstache]

We haven't had a thread this lacking in reading comprehension and self awareness since Mr. Orange.