The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: IslandFiGirl on October 04, 2021, 04:21:15 PM
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I first learned about FIRE several years ago from a friend at work and from the moment I heard about it, I knew that was what I wanted. I had already gotten debt free after my divorce and was steadily building my stache. I hadn't really expected to retire super earlier than normal but I was well on my way when my parents died within 3 years of each other and left me with enough inheritance money that I could at the very least stop working for a while. It took me a year to decide it was ok to quit my stressful, exhausting job after my second parent died and at first I was like yes this is so great, I can spend time with my kids before they all grow up and go away. At the time they were 22, 17 and 15.
Fast forward to NOW. Oldest is married and moved a thousand miles away. We are close regardless of where she is, which is great but...kinda sad because I just wanna go to lunch with her sometimes. Middle kid is 19 and joined the military, more than a thousand miles away and busy learning his new job and typically can go quite a while before he feels the need to text his Mama. Youngest is 17 and splits her time between my house and her Dad's and God bless her, both of her parents are having a terrible case of Empty Nest Syndrome.
I literally don't know what to do with myself. I have several very good friends and they know I struggle but they can't fix me. I know I have to figure this out because my kids will not be moving back home and they won't magically turn into kids again so it's time to move forward but I just feel so stuck. When I was working I felt like I could do it all. I worked long hours and still made it to all my kids' events, I had friends, I was always on the go, always ready and available for the next catastrophe and even found a little time for me. Now that I don't HAVE to do anything, I don't know WHAT to do. It's almost like I was better when there were expectations on me and I knew I had to meet them. My gosh what a first world problem to have. I feel like such a princess but I am legitimately miserable and don't know what to do. My kids know I'm sad but I can't lean on them much, this isn't their fault. I know I did a good job with them so my job was a success, right? So why am I so freaking sad?
I've tried so many things...paddleboarding (my favorite), bike riding, walking, working out, karaoke, line dancing, I even got a JOB for 3 months (hated it) LOTS of volunteering-Red Cross, painting houses for single moms, emergency communications for natural disasters, raising a puppy to be a Guide Dog for the Blind, COVID clinics, and several other one time volunteer things....I meet up with friends at least once or twice a week, I try new recipes, organize my garage...I let myself splurge...because....money....got myself a brand new truck and a camper. I still feel flat and unfulfilled. Like what the heck am I supposed to do to find happiness? Oh, and I even tried to have a boyfriend and that wasn't super great either. Apparently I like being independent and have troubles finding "the right person".
I don't necessarily want to go back to the working world again, I do like my freedom, I just wish I didn't feel so sad. Anyone else feeling this way, or am I like the only weirdo that can't seem to enjoy this amazing gift?
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I am not an expert, but honestly having devoted the majority of your life to being a good mother and worker and then stripping away those jobs means you've suffered a double loss of identity and it's damned hard to figure out who you are when you lose something so integral to your life for such a long time.
You likely hadn't really considered retiring TO something (new career, traveling, specific hobby, bucket list stuff, etc) and that's likely part of it too.
When you are depressed, nothing really gets you to happy. So throwing yourself into hobbies and activities and volunteer work is not going to feel as fulfilling until you dig through the depression.
And that can mean you need to talk to a professional and possibly check out medications that can help too.
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Early retirement is a crucible. It magnifies all your insecurities. Sounds like you need: 1) counseling 2) meditation (especially gratitude meditations) 3) good sleep 4) consider medication.
On 4 - the flouxetine I take for Tourette's syndrome completely changed my life. I thought everyone was anxious all the time and what I was feeling was normal. Very calming and very reassuring. If you have clinical depression, (sounds like it), you need brain chemistry adjustment - probably via SSRI. See a professional.
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I remember reading your thread about stressful job and burnout , and then when I was going through the same myself, I saw your update that you quit and I was quietly cheering for you.
I am not a health expert but both my husband and son battle with depression , and I have felt it too but only sometimes.. so to me sounds like you have depression.. I would see a medical professional, and see if they recommend medication , it changes people's lives. And therapy of course.
With all the things you've done ( and to me it sounds like you tried A LOT) it's not for the lack of trying new things..
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@Malcat ?
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@Malcat ?
I have company at the moment, but a lot of thoughts.
I'll be back later with some input.
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I’m kind of grappling with this too at the moment. My life has been completely different from yours — I married in my 40s, have no kids, and not had much of a career. I devoted a lot of myself to music, staying in school for a long time and eventually getting a doctorate but then failing at earning a living at it, so I worked for about 20 years at some unsatisfying nonmusic jobs. When I retired from that 8 years ago, I was determined to try to make something work for me as a musician, whether paid or not, but things have not gone well from that perspective. I’m turning 64 this month and have been pretty depressed about the whole thing and without a sense of purpose. I do have chronic problems with depression so this is not terribly unusual for me, but things do feel thornier now somehow. Maybe it’s staring down the last decades of my life that’s making it worse.
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I also remember reading your retirement thread. I've been retired for about a year now. I don't get depressed but I get where you are coming from. It's a tough issue and one I think most people have to face. Facing it earlier in life due to earlier retirement may be tougher. I think at some point in our lives we have to accept that we don't have to struggle anymore and we just have to live a life maybe without purpose. I find my life now sort of boring but it's also peaceful.
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It sounds like you’re finding that all the activities aren’t necessarily that meaningful but that maybe you’re missing the family relationships. Do you have any other family you might consider moving near? Like siblings or cousins? Or any relatives with little kids who could use some childcare help? If not, it might still help to think of other people-oriented things you could incorporate into your life, rather than activity-based stuff. Like you might enjoy sitting in someone’s kitchen more than doing volunteer work. Several family groups in my extended family all moved to the same neighborhood during the pandemic. We needed to be closer.
A lot of people would find my retirement dull but it’s a good routine for me most days. I get up and exercise, eat breakfast, do some dishes or laundry, and then usually have most of the day free to do what feels interesting. Reading, cooking, garden projects, baking bread, meditating, helping someone in the family with something, occasionally a volunteer shift. Overall, it’s fairly slow but peaceful. I’ve never found happiness from a busy schedule. I’ve also needed a lot of time and space to think about how I want to spend my time. The answers change often and there has been some trial and error.
I hope you find some happiness. We’re not following the typical life pattern so it can be hard forging our own path.
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If I remember correctly, I think your job was very stressful, but also meaningful. It may have established a familiarity within you of associating meaningful experience with the adrenaline surge of crisis response. Couple that with divorce, kids and general all round busy life, its not hard to understand how a quiet pace of life could feel flat and without purpose or meaning in contrast.
Instead of looking for a way out of this, could it help to think of this as a transition time? Like a seed in the ground waiting for the soil to warm. Take life a day or two at a time, try not to look backwards, or too far into the future. Journal your feelings for a few minutes, then try to just do the tasks of the day as they need to be done.
I personally find a lot of fulfillment in gardening now, but it took me several years to process the events which led up to and resulted in retiring and find a new sense of purpose.
Best wishes.
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I don't know whether or not you have clinical depression, that's something for the experts to assess, if you want to go down that route. I do think that there is a difference between clinical depression and being sad, and that being sad sometimes is both normal and a healthy reaction to sad things happening in life. To me your post suggests sadness rather than depression: it is written with life and liveliness running through it, and the list of activities you have tried tires me out just to read it, and such a long list of trying new things seems untypical of depression.
I suspect that you may be sad because you are grieving two big losses: the sense of purpose you got from working and the sense of purpose and close family relationships you got from raising children. Added in to that you sound a bit like one of those people who needs to "fill every minute with sixty seconds of distance run" - I'm the opposite of that but I recognise that such people do exist - in which case the loss of the busyness that comes with a career and raising a family at the same time is another source of grief. If I am right then acknowledging that you are sad and have reason to be sad is perhaps the first step, and the second step is to acknowledge that the sadness may last some time but is likely to fade. I'm not sure that the fading can be hurried, grief seems to follow its own course for all of us.
One thing you haven't mentioned trying as a replacement for the things you have lost is serious academic study. Another is getting involved in politics. Either of those could keep you as busy as you want for the rest of your life, fixing up the world for your children and grandchildren.
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Can't comment on the mental health stuff, but know that these feelings are shared by many who suddenly give up work or suddenly change their lives in multiple ways simultaneously (for you it was empty nest + career). Sadly we're living in an age where many people (even those who are employed) are suffering a crisis of meaning and purpose. From an early age you're conditioned to be a good worker, climb the career pyramid, and identify with your job/career. It's also the measuring stick society has been using for self worth for quite some time. Stepping away from it all can be a shock. Once you're no longer worshiping at the church of careerism/consumerism, it seems a lot harder to relate to people. Can feel very isolating. Even as a mid-30's FIREe I had a lot of these similar thoughts after the initial high of not working wore off.
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Okay, so let's cover a bit of ground here first.
Let's talk depression vs suffering.
Depression and suffering can manifest the exact same way: feeling hopeless, inability to enjoy things, inability to feel at peace with life, etc, etc.
The major difference is that suffering is a normal, reasonable, and proportional response to a negative event in your life. It can be even more severe than clinical depression. For example, if someone loses a child, that can result in a totally proportional level of suffering that is totally unmanageable and unbearable.
But it's NOT depression.
Life events can't cause depression, but they can trigger it. So mourning can trigger a depression and that person then doesn't recover from the mourning on a normal timeline.
Depression is an *abnormal* state of suffering that is not or no longer reasonable or proportional to the events happening in the person's life.
Both can require similar treatment, but the distinction is VERY important, because the treatment is meaningfully different.
For suffering, the treatment can require medication, but is primarily about processing the traumatic/negative experiences to make sure that they don't create maladaptive patterns of thoughts and behaviours. When someone experiences something difficult, a loss, a major change, abuse, etc, it can either entrench itself and make the person overall less healthy, or it can be processed effectively and make the person more resilient.
The purpose of treatment is to get the person back to a health state where they can return to their normal, healthy function in life.
Depression is a totally different creature. Depression makes it impossible to be healthy. It's not just a matter of processing things, the brain will simply not allow the person to be able to enjoy their life because they're not capable of a proportionate, normal response to things.
Happy feelings don't last as long as they should, safety never totally feels safe, life just lacks that feeling of being okay.
Now to OP, do you have a proportionate suffering response to major life changes or has it evolved into a mild depression? It's impossible for an internet stranger to say, but as someone with A LOT of knowledge on suffering, I have a strong suspicion it could be that you've had mild depression triggered.
There's nothing actually wrong with your life and you are struggling to find activities and things to *make* your life feel okay. To me, it doesn't sound like that's working or that it's going to work. I don't know that you can solve this problem with "logic" if there's a fundamental basis for you not feeling comfortable and happy in your life.
Let me illustrate with a counter example so you can see what I mean.
I'm in my late 30s, I studied for over a decade for my dream job, I LOVED my dream job, but then got extremely ill, diagnosed with a rare, very disabling disease, and had to give up my dream job, that I LOVED, after only working for 7 years.
I suffered immensely with severe mourning, loss of identity, loss of function, loss of my ability to walk comfortably, and I am in constant, and I mean *constant* pain. I, like you, struggle constantly with figuring out what to do with myself because I physically can't do most things, not consistently. So my life is very limited in many ways.
So I have all of the reasons in the world to be dissatisfied with my life, and yet, I'm quite happy, peaceful, and very at ease with my life. I have rough days, but for the most part, I'm very satisfied.
I didn't always feel this way, I've gone through a lot of therapy to make sure that my suffering was processed and didn't turn into negativity and toxicity. This also helped prevent it triggering depression, which runs in my family.
The only way for me to really accurately describe my current mental health state despite still experiencing a significant, legitimate amount of profound suffering is that I'm *not depressed*. I don't have a better way to explain it other than that I feel like every negative feeling I have is entirely within reason, totally manageable, and doesn't define my state of being.
I'm explaining my experience to help you put yours in perspective. If you feel about your life like I do, that no matter what is going on, no matter how painful things get, that you are still good, and life is still rich and fulfilling, then you're doing fine and don't need any therapy.
However, it doesn't sound that way, and what's critical is to determine if your negative feelings are entirely in line with their triggers, or if you've been knocked into some degree of depression where you literally can't feel comfortable in your life until you resolve it.
Whatever the case, hobbies, a job, etc, aren't going to solve the problem. Not having a source of purpose doesn't make people feel the way you are feeling, there has to be something maladaptive happening at the same time.
As other people have said, that's not unusual for this stage of life. Many people experience difficulties with mental health during this stage of transition in life. It's common, but that doesn't mean it should be brushed off as normal.
Whatever is going on, there is some degree of a mentally unhealthy process happening, and that needs to be effectively addressed, and not by going back to work or volunteering more.
It's time to stop looking outwards for the answers and start looking inwards.
Your life could be much, much worse and if you were perfectly mentally healthy, you would feel better. So tackle the mental health first, *then* focus on figuring out what your best life looks like at this stage.
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One thing I can add based on my experience: the true freedom of action you get when you FIRE is surprisingly hard to handle. It took a few months of retirement before I realized something that should have been obvious: that I was not spending enough time doing what gives me real happiness, which is creating things. Since I keep a diary, it was easy for me to review it to see what I was missing. I definitely recommend a diary to keep track of how you spend your time.
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One thing I can add based on my experience: the true freedom of action you get when you FIRE is surprisingly hard to handle. It took a few months of retirement before I realized something that should have been obvious: that I was not spending enough time doing what gives me real happiness, which is creating things. Since I keep a diary, it was easy for me to review it to see what I was missing. I definitely recommend a diary to keep track of how you spend your time.
Yes, all major transitions can be very difficult, but things being difficult doesn't necessarily correlate with being unhappy.
An absence of difficulty is not the definition of a good life. Life can be brutally hard and still be wonderful.
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Sounds like you have tried a lot of different things to occupy your free time. I did that too, but the one thing that makes me the happiest is making things. Have you tried any sort of creative activity? It could be anything, like painting, writing, carpentry, gardening, restoring old cars, making furniture, etc. If you have not done so, already, find a creative outlet and see if that works for you.
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I SOOO relate to your situation / problem.
Our paths have been similar, though bits of them are mirrored - opposites.
I've identified that my problem is a void of priorities. Priorities were a substantial part of most all parts of my life. Now, I'm adrift without them. There are so many options for me that I have analysis paralysis.
The easy answer is 'make happiness the priority', but that's so foreign to me that it might as well be written in Aramaic.
I'm reading the book; 'Designing your life'. It's subtitle is: How to build a well-lived, joyful life.
It has exercises, workbooks and assessment tools. You can buy separate workbooks.
I'm not thru it enough to endorse it, but you might want to consider it.
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"Life Is in the Transitions: Mastering Change at Any Age" was recommended by someone in another thread in case that might be useful too.
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I first learned about FIRE several years ago from a friend at work and from the moment I heard about it, I knew that was what I wanted. I had already gotten debt free after my divorce and was steadily building my stache. I hadn't really expected to retire super earlier than normal but I was well on my way when my parents died within 3 years of each other and left me with enough inheritance money that I could at the very least stop working for a while. It took me a year to decide it was ok to quit my stressful, exhausting job after my second parent died and at first I was like yes this is so great, I can spend time with my kids before they all grow up and go away. At the time they were 22, 17 and 15.
Fast forward to NOW.
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First of all, congratulations on being a great mother! From the looks of it, you did great in raising your children and getting them on their own feet to live their lives. You correctly identified that what you are experiencing is the "empty nest syndrome." It seems like everything is OK -- this is perfectly normal -- and you are in the process of transitioning into a new life.
Sometimes when you don't know what to do, the best thing is to do nothing for a while. If I were you I'd celebrate your accomplishments and treat yourself to a nice vacation in Key West, St. Pete's Beach, or someplace like that.
I like and recommend "How to Retire Happy, Wild, and Free" by Ernie Zelinski. But there are many books like this -- they have exercises to help you figure out what you want to do. You might look into that later on when you are ready.
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Malcat’s response above is gold…better than gold. I saw her post something similar in another thread recently and it really resonated with me and a situation I’m currently working my way through.
I had one other thought in response to your post and that was around everything that has kept you busy over the past 24+ years. Three kids, a marriage, then raising kids after divorce, a stressful career, loss of parents, etc. Is it possible all of this kept you so busy that you were never able to sit with and process your own feelings and now you do have time, and are facing some difficult feelings? If this is the case, I’d definitely suggest you consider some counseling.
Wishing you the best.
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If I remember correctly, I think your job was very stressful, but also meaningful. It may have established a familiarity within you of associating meaningful experience with the adrenaline surge of crisis response. Couple that with divorce, kids and general all round busy life, its not hard to understand how a quiet pace of life could feel flat and without purpose or meaning in contrast.
Instead of looking for a way out of this, could it help to think of this as a transition time? Like a seed in the ground waiting for the soil to warm. Take life a day or two at a time, try not to look backwards, or too far into the future. Journal your feelings for a few minutes, then try to just do the tasks of the day as they need to be done.
I personally find a lot of fulfillment in gardening now, but it took me several years to process the events which led up to and resulted in retiring and find a new sense of purpose.
Best wishes.
I relate most to this answer. I have found in life when I am unsatisfied, that it is life signalling to me that I should make a change. I look at it now as "labor pains" or a transition as stated above. Sometimes we have to go through this stuff to create a new life for ourselves.
I can relate to the OPs feelings. I FIREd living by the beach, planning to travel the world and spend more time on hobbies. Then a few months in, my elderly parents needed more of my attention. I ended up selling the dream condo by the beach and moving in with them. I was able to travel a little, but couldn't do long term travel. This definitely wasn't in my plans. My sister used to live in the same city then moved away so that's less time spending with her. Then unfortunately my parents passed away last year. So now I have time to travel, right? Wrong, COVID has stopped that in it's tracks, at least international travel. It is something I don't want to deal with.
I am refocusing on learning about permaculture gardening in my new house. I just take it day by day and life will reveal itself to me.
OP, it is good that you have a lot of interests you are involved in, even if they don't feel fulfilling at the time. It's OK to be "lost in the woods" sometimes. That is how you find new places. Here is one of my favorite quotes:
Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore.
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I don't know whether or not you have clinical depression, that's something for the experts to assess, if you want to go down that route. I do think that there is a difference between clinical depression and being sad, and that being sad sometimes is both normal and a healthy reaction to sad things happening in life. To me your post suggests sadness rather than depression: it is written with life and liveliness running through it, and the list of activities you have tried tires me out just to read it, and such a long list of trying new things seems untypical of depression.
I suspect that you may be sad because you are grieving two big losses: the sense of purpose you got from working and the sense of purpose and close family relationships you got from raising children.
100% agree. I suspect that one of the reasons that none of the things the OP tried really landed is because none of them actually answered the need for companionship and engaging in growing long term relationships. That can look all kinds of different ways, whether its the people you volunteer for or with.
It's one thing to build a house or do useful shit with a group of people you just met; a whole different level when those people become your close friends and you do useful shit together over and over.
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I don't necessarily want to go back to the working world again, I do like my freedom, I just wish I didn't feel so sad. Anyone else feeling this way, or am I like the only weirdo that can't seem to enjoy this amazing gift?
No, it’s not just you. I’m relating hard to this post. Would you consider talking on the phone?
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I just started a book that seems interesting so far, you might find it useful. I'm reading it on Libby from my Library.
The Happiness Project (https://smile.amazon.com/Happiness-Project-Tenth-Anniversary-Aristotle-ebook/dp/B07CRQMQ17/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1MA81CT8Y9CHY&dchild=1&keywords=happiness+project&qid=1633650513&s=books&sprefix=happiness+pro%2Caps%2C201&sr=1-1): Or, Why I Spent a Year Trying to Sing in the Morning, Clean My Closets, Fight Right, Read Aristotle, and Generally Have More Fun
by Gretchen Rubin
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I've thought a lot about this problem. People mocked me when I recently brought up the topic in this thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/study-links-too-much-free-time-to-lower-sense-of-wellbeing/), but here we are. Maybe I should have posted that thread in Post-FIRE instead of General Discussion.
Anyway, this is why I have no intention to stop working. I may quit my job or even my career, but I cannot stop working if I want to remain happy. At heart, I am a builder, and I always need something to build. This is why one of my goals for my early retirement is to buy a bunch of land and build stuff on it. Maybe a huge vegetable garden and greenhouse. Maybe some sort of Zen garden for meditation. Maybe I'll build a bunch of small houses and rent them out on AirBnB. But the point is that I need something to build and lose myself in over the course of many years. Ideally, it should be something not just solely for myself but which attracts other people, like the AirBnB idea or hosting WWOOFers on a small farm.
I think perhaps what bothers a lot of people who seek and attain early retirement is this lack of something to build. Early retirement in itself is an enormous undertaking which takes hard work and dedication to build up over time. As a result, I think that many early retirees must be passionate builders. Spending all that time building something and suddenly having nothing more to build must be pretty difficult for such a person. This is why early retirement can't be the end for me, it needs to be the start of a new journey with more goals to achieve.
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@Herbert Derp
I totally don't grok. I'm a Peter Gibbons type from Office Space: What would you do if you had a million dollars? - Nothing. But you clearly aren't PG. And that is cool. What I like is you have identified your core needs and are building a life that supports that. The WwOOF thing sounds like potentially a lot of fun. Best of luck to you!
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I've thought a lot about this problem. People mocked me when I recently brought up the topic in this thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/study-links-too-much-free-time-to-lower-sense-of-wellbeing/), but here we are. Maybe I should have posted that thread in Post-FIRE instead of General Discussion.
Anyway, this is why I have no intention to stop working. I may quit my job or even my career, but I cannot stop working if I want to remain happy. At heart, I am a builder, and I always need something to build. This is why one of my goals for my early retirement is to buy a bunch of land and build stuff on it. Maybe a huge vegetable garden and greenhouse. Maybe some sort of Zen garden for meditation. Maybe I'll build a bunch of small houses and rent them out on AirBnB. But the point is that I need something to build and lose myself in over the course of many years. Ideally, it should be something not just solely for myself but which attracts other people, like the AirBnB idea or hosting WWOOFers on a small farm.
I think perhaps what bothers a lot of people who seek and attain early retirement is this lack of something to build. Early retirement in itself is an enormous undertaking which takes hard work and dedication to build up over time. As a result, I think that many early retirees must be passionate builders. Spending all that time building something and suddenly having nothing more to build must be pretty difficult for such a person. This is why early retirement can't be the end for me, it needs to be the start of a new journey with more goals to achieve.
I 1000% stand by my statements in that thread and in this one.
If you have all the freedom in the world, and you are unable to be happy, there is something wrong, and you should probably seek help.
If *you* want to keep working, that's great. I personally never wanted to retire because I LOVED my job, and had I physically been able to continue, I would have done so well into my senior years. However, I was forced to stop, and that was sad, but in no way has free time made me miserable or depressed.
I loved my job, and I love being retired. If my health were to improve, I would return to my job in a second, but that's not because I am miserable having free time.
Having free time doesn't mean doing nothing, it means having more control over what you choose to do. If that makes someone miserable, then they should definitely do some work on their mental health.
That's not a slight or an insult against anyone, most people are walking around with terrible mental health.
Now, major change can be emotionally difficult for anyone, even those with excellent mental health, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's a bad thing to go through.
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... Youngest is 17 and splits her time between my house and her Dad's and God bless her, both of her parents are having a terrible case of Empty Nest Syndrome.
I literally don't know what to do with myself. I have several very good friends and they know I struggle but they can't fix me. I know I have to figure this out because my kids will not be moving back home and they won't magically turn into kids again so it's time to move forward but I just feel so stuck. ...
It sounds like your friends care, but they can't relate. They're just not familiar with the situation you're in. You might try searching for "reddit empty nester" and browse some of the topics you find. It won't "fix" you, but it can be incredibly comforting to realize how many varieties of people are going through something similar. And they might have decent advice, having been in a similar situation.
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I think a lot of our struggles in this theme boil down to lack of enriching companionship whether it be romantic or platonic friendships.
Most people spend decades raising their families and neglecting the foundation of a real social network of close friends. Then, when it is time to send the kids off to their lives, we're totally lost in terms of how to make up lost time. I know I am.
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I have some of the same feelings as you, but almost in the opposite way. I could (and sort of have been) doing the same as you during my 3+ years of retirement so far. And I was far too busy and a lot of my volunteer work has been ramping down, which I appreciate, giving me more time to pursue other hobbies and activities. And I'm really enjoying it, not sad at all. But I worry - I worry that I'm not doing enough, that I'm not "contributing" enough in some way, that I don't have an overarching purpose that I can use to...justify my existence, I guess? Perhaps my comparison is unwarranted, but it just feels like having some Purpose that make you Fulfilled is something we both struggle with - you wanting it and me feeling like I shouldn't be ok without wanting it. As @2Birds1Stone mentioned, it's a cultural thing that is hard to wrestle ourselves out of. And though I truly believe that it is a negative thing, who am I to tell someone else that they need to break free from the concept altogether, vs. finding their happiness within it?
But as others have mentioned, I don't think FIRE is the problem here, but has only revealed it more glaringly. You were going to go through a lot of this, FIREd or not, esp the empty nester stuff. So, that's probably an important area to explore if you want to see how others have found replacements for their new Purpose, once the Raising Kids Purpose is fulfilled.
For my part, I'm planning to find and read more philosophy on getting comfortable with the idea of not having a Purpose of being here on this earth. But not having Purpose doesn't mean that we each don't need to find something *meaningful* to fill our time. Having always been handed things (from school through jobs and raising children) that were meaningful and purposeful without really having to sit down and figure out the process of identifying those things, it's no wonder some of us can get stuck not knowing what is meaningful to us when we've completed those other things. For the lucky some, they've always known and been drawn to certain things that they can do for hours and days on end, to get into a flow state and just get immersed in. Some of us never found those things along the way while doing the other things. But I have to believe they are out there for us, too. I still don't know how to go about finding them, but I'm determined to make the process of finding them fun and interesting rather than worrisome and desperate. In reality, my journey so far has been some of each, but more of the former when I remind myself that I AM on a journey and this is all part of the process. Am I just lying to myself? Have I just secretly snuck in a different Purpose for myself to ease any potential anxiety about not having a Purpose? It's like a koan!
One of the best things I learned from an awesome Life Coach I worked with in the past (also something I'd recommend giving a try for just this!) is to be comfortable with uncertainty. I'm also still not perfectly comfortable with it, but it's really changed my perspective, and reduced my anxiety, in life.
You don't have to be happy right now. You don't have to be fulfilled right now. You don't have to have a purpose right now. But being able to find comfort in knowing you are diligently working on finding some or all of those things, and that like many experiments, you'll have lots of failures on the way to success, perhaps you will be able to enjoy the process a bit more too. You probably have a few decades to fill, so you have plenty of time to explore and discover.
One crazy idea. If you really, really just feel like having a Purpose is important to you and you found raising children to be meaningful....maybe raise some more children? It's something that could certainly keep you busy for a couple decades and whether fostering or adopting, I've known several families that have had very meaningful experiences.
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I've thought a lot about this problem. People mocked me when I recently brought up the topic in this thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/study-links-too-much-free-time-to-lower-sense-of-wellbeing/), but here we are. Maybe I should have posted that thread in Post-FIRE instead of General Discussion.
Anyway, this is why I have no intention to stop working. I may quit my job or even my career, but I cannot stop working if I want to remain happy. At heart, I am a builder, and I always need something to build. This is why one of my goals for my early retirement is to buy a bunch of land and build stuff on it. Maybe a huge vegetable garden and greenhouse. Maybe some sort of Zen garden for meditation. Maybe I'll build a bunch of small houses and rent them out on AirBnB. But the point is that I need something to build and lose myself in over the course of many years. Ideally, it should be something not just solely for myself but which attracts other people, like the AirBnB idea or hosting WWOOFers on a small farm.
I think perhaps what bothers a lot of people who seek and attain early retirement is this lack of something to build. Early retirement in itself is an enormous undertaking which takes hard work and dedication to build up over time. As a result, I think that many early retirees must be passionate builders. Spending all that time building something and suddenly having nothing more to build must be pretty difficult for such a person. This is why early retirement can't be the end for me, it needs to be the start of a new journey with more goals to achieve.
Completely agree with this as well. I'm in a similar situation. When my kids get older, I'm also envisioning long vacations with friends to various countries as both fun in their own right, and a way to continue to nurture relationships.
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I think a lot of our struggles in this theme boil down to lack of enriching companionship whether it be romantic or platonic friendships.
Most people spend decades raising their families and neglecting the foundation of a real social network of close friends. Then, when it is time to send the kids off to their lives, we're totally lost in terms of how to make up lost time. I know I am.
Lots of truth here.
Something else that needs to be acknowledged is that retirement is a significant life change and to me a lot of the intensity goes out of your life. It takes time to adjust to that. I also think that this can continue for a long time.
A typical day for me is going for a walk, playing guitar, reading books,playing some video games with my 10 yo son, playing chess, cooking, talking a little shit on the internet, watching some youtube videos, watching TV/movies etc. I typically spend at least a couple of hours every day reading and sleeping.
My life is very different from waking up to go to work and dealing with a stressful job.
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Completely agree with this as well. I'm in a similar situation. When my kids get older, I'm also envisioning long vacations with friends to various countries as both fun in their own right, and a way to continue to nurture relationships.
Only if your friends are FIRE too.
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You sound like you've been a great Mum and I think it is perfectly reasonable to experience sadness in response to some of the significant changes in your life.
DH and I became empty nesters a bit more than a year ago. DD, as adorable as she is, took up a lot of my head space and time, and once she moved out, I was quite amazed by the amount of physical and mental space that freed up. But it also did make me wonder about the next part of my life. Some very thoughtful posts here.
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Just posting to see if there is any feedback from @IslandFiGirl. I hope everything is okay.
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Completely agree with this as well. I'm in a similar situation. When my kids get older, I'm also envisioning long vacations with friends to various countries as both fun in their own right, and a way to continue to nurture relationships.
Only if your friends are FIRE too.
Do you not share fire ideas with your friends. My local friends that live near me are almost all maxing all tax advantaged space.
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Completely agree with this as well. I'm in a similar situation. When my kids get older, I'm also envisioning long vacations with friends to various countries as both fun in their own right, and a way to continue to nurture relationships.
Only if your friends are FIRE too.
Do you not share fire ideas with your friends. My local friends that live near me are almost all maxing all tax advantaged space.
I don't understand this statement. What does your friends maxing their tax advantaged space have to do with not telling them about FIRE?
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Completely agree with this as well. I'm in a similar situation. When my kids get older, I'm also envisioning long vacations with friends to various countries as both fun in their own right, and a way to continue to nurture relationships.
Only if your friends are FIRE too.
Do you not share fire ideas with your friends. My local friends that live near me are almost all maxing all tax advantaged space.
I don't understand this statement. What does your friends maxing their tax advantaged space have to do with not telling them about FIRE?
"Do YOU not share" is what i said
not "Do NOT Share"
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Completely agree with this as well. I'm in a similar situation. When my kids get older, I'm also envisioning long vacations with friends to various countries as both fun in their own right, and a way to continue to nurture relationships.
Only if your friends are FIRE too.
Do you not share fire ideas with your friends. My local friends that live near me are almost all maxing all tax advantaged space.
I don't understand this statement. What does your friends maxing their tax advantaged space have to do with not telling them about FIRE?
"Do YOU not share" is what i said
not "Do NOT Share"
With no question mark, it reads poorly.
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Completely agree with this as well. I'm in a similar situation. When my kids get older, I'm also envisioning long vacations with friends to various countries as both fun in their own right, and a way to continue to nurture relationships.
Only if your friends are FIRE too.
Do you not share fire ideas with your friends. My local friends that live near me are almost all maxing all tax advantaged space.
I don't understand this statement. What does your friends maxing their tax advantaged space have to do with not telling them about FIRE?
"Do YOU not share" is what i said
not "Do NOT Share"
Lol, forgive me, I'm dyslexic and make mistakes like this sometimes, especially on my phone. That makes much more sense.
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Completely agree with this as well. I'm in a similar situation. When my kids get older, I'm also envisioning long vacations with friends to various countries as both fun in their own right, and a way to continue to nurture relationships.
Only if your friends are FIRE too.
Do you not share fire ideas with your friends. My local friends that live near me are almost all maxing all tax advantaged space.
I don't understand this statement. What does your friends maxing their tax advantaged space have to do with not telling them about FIRE?
"Do YOU not share" is what i said
not "Do NOT Share"
Lol, forgive me, I'm dyslexic and make mistakes like this sometimes, especially on my phone. That makes much more sense.
I'm a poor writer when it comes to forums like these as is pointed out frequently.
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Has anybody mentioned getting a dog?
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Has anybody mentioned getting a dog?
OP did say she raised a puppy to be a guide dog among the things she's done since retiring.
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Has anybody mentioned getting a dog?
OP did say she raised a puppy to be a guide dog among the things she's done since retiring.
I'd forgotten about that. I was just sitting with out cute little lap dog thinking about how much joy she's given us over the years.
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I'm not FIRED yet, but when you describe what you've tried and said you still feel flat, I can strongly relate to that. I have depression, and I think the persistent flat feeling is one of the worst symptoms. It just sucks the joy out of almost everything. For example, I found my dream career, even got a taste of working it for a year, and I was still completely flat, putting on an act for everyone else and miserable.
So please, don't think you're not trying hard enough to find the right thing to do to make you happy. If this is a mental health issue, which I suspect it is and as others have said, then it might not matter in terms of how you feel, even if you found your perfect calling.
Also, about your children calling you, if they're like me, they may call more as they get older. I pulled away a bit in my late teens and early twenties, but now I call my mom almost every day she doesn't have work.
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I'm not FIRED yet, but when you describe what you've tried and said you still feel flat, I can strongly relate to that. I have depression, and I think the persistent flat feeling is one of the worst symptoms. It just sucks the joy out of almost everything. For example, I found my dream career, even got a taste of working it for a year, and I was still completely flat, putting on an act for everyone else and miserable.
So please, don't think you're not trying hard enough to find the right thing to do to make you happy. If this is a mental health issue, which I suspect it is and as others have said, then it might not matter in terms of how you feel, even if you found your perfect calling.
Also, about your children calling you, if they're like me, they may call more as they get older. I pulled away a bit in my late teens and early twenties, but now I call my mom almost every day she doesn't have work.
Exactly, that's why it's so important to figure out if it's depression, because the key with depression is that nothing that normally lifts your spirit will really work, which just perpetuates the sense of hopelessness.
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You likely hadn't really considered retiring TO something (new career, traveling, specific hobby, bucket list stuff, etc) and that's likely part of it too.
Yeah I definitely didn't retire TO anything, I was just burnt out and had to go. Not much I can do about that now, not for lack of trying, LOL!
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I’m kind of grappling with this too at the moment. My life has been completely different from yours — I married in my 40s, have no kids, and not had much of a career. I devoted a lot of myself to music, staying in school for a long time and eventually getting a doctorate but then failing at earning a living at it, so I worked for about 20 years at some unsatisfying nonmusic jobs. When I retired from that 8 years ago, I was determined to try to make something work for me as a musician, whether paid or not, but things have not gone well from that perspective. I’m turning 64 this month and have been pretty depressed about the whole thing and without a sense of purpose. I do have chronic problems with depression so this is not terribly unusual for me, but things do feel thornier now somehow. Maybe it’s staring down the last decades of my life that’s making it worse.
I'm sorry to hear you are struggling with depression too. I know I don't know the solution, but I know there is at least always the hope that things will get better.
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I also remember reading your retirement thread. I've been retired for about a year now. I don't get depressed but I get where you are coming from. It's a tough issue and one I think most people have to face. Facing it earlier in life due to earlier retirement may be tougher. I think at some point in our lives we have to accept that we don't have to struggle anymore and we just have to live a life maybe without purpose. I find my life now sort of boring but it's also peaceful.
I have to say I do like the peacefulness, even if it feels kind of boring at times. Being mostly free of stress is definitely the bright side to this.
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You likely hadn't really considered retiring TO something (new career, traveling, specific hobby, bucket list stuff, etc) and that's likely part of it too.
Yeah I definitely didn't retire TO anything, I was just burnt out and had to go. Not much I can do about that now, not for lack of trying, LOL!
I retired "to" something and it was a mistake and really messed with my decompression.
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It sounds like you’re finding that all the activities aren’t necessarily that meaningful but that maybe you’re missing the family relationships. Do you have any other family you might consider moving near? Like siblings or cousins? Or any relatives with little kids who could use some childcare help? If not, it might still help to think of other people-oriented things you could incorporate into your life, rather than activity-based stuff. Like you might enjoy sitting in someone’s kitchen more than doing volunteer work. Several family groups in my extended family all moved to the same neighborhood during the pandemic. We needed to be closer.
A lot of people would find my retirement dull but it’s a good routine for me most days. I get up and exercise, eat breakfast, do some dishes or laundry, and then usually have most of the day free to do what feels interesting. Reading, cooking, garden projects, baking bread, meditating, helping someone in the family with something, occasionally a volunteer shift. Overall, it’s fairly slow but peaceful. I’ve never found happiness from a busy schedule. I’ve also needed a lot of time and space to think about how I want to spend my time. The answers change often and there has been some trial and error.
I hope you find some happiness. We’re not following the typical life pattern so it can be hard forging our own path.
I think eventually I could live near my oldest daughter whenever she settles down in a place. Right now her husband is in grad school, so moving near them right now would be dumb since they won't be there much longer. In the meantime I have a few good friends in town and my youngest daughter still in high school. I do think I'd like to be near more family...my parents are gone and the family I do have is in a place I probably wouldn't want to live, so hopefully my kids all end up in the same area. Wishful thinking, haha!
And I totally agree about not following the typical life pattern making things a bit harder. I have noticed it's harder for people to relate to me because I don't work and can't say I'm a "fill in the blank" when they ask what I "do". It confuses me, because other than having no job, I pretty much have the same life as everyone else, right? I put my pants on the same way everyone else does. Maybe I'm not comfortable with my retirement status yet and that hinders me, I'm not totally sure.
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If I remember correctly, I think your job was very stressful, but also meaningful. It may have established a familiarity within you of associating meaningful experience with the adrenaline surge of crisis response. Couple that with divorce, kids and general all round busy life, its not hard to understand how a quiet pace of life could feel flat and without purpose or meaning in contrast.
Instead of looking for a way out of this, could it help to think of this as a transition time? Like a seed in the ground waiting for the soil to warm. Take life a day or two at a time, try not to look backwards, or too far into the future. Journal your feelings for a few minutes, then try to just do the tasks of the day as they need to be done.
I personally find a lot of fulfillment in gardening now, but it took me several years to process the events which led up to and resulted in retiring and find a new sense of purpose.
Best wishes.
Thank you for the best wishes. I think there is a touch of a lack of feeling important. I was a 911 dispatcher (and the manager for the last several years) and I remember at times realizing what a big deal that job was, most days I didn't think about it at all, but some days I remember feeling like...wow, all the years of experience really made it so I could help that person and that was really fulfilling. I can't say I miss the job, but there was some satisfaction in answering the "what do you do" question with my job title and having people say hey, that's a really difficult job, I don't know how you do it. Compare that to my answer to the "what do you do" question now...answer...."nothing" and it just isn't the same, LOL. Of course I answer nothing just to be funny, but you know what I mean. :)
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It sounds like you’re finding that all the activities aren’t necessarily that meaningful but that maybe you’re missing the family relationships. Do you have any other family you might consider moving near? Like siblings or cousins? Or any relatives with little kids who could use some childcare help? If not, it might still help to think of other people-oriented things you could incorporate into your life, rather than activity-based stuff. Like you might enjoy sitting in someone’s kitchen more than doing volunteer work. Several family groups in my extended family all moved to the same neighborhood during the pandemic. We needed to be closer.
A lot of people would find my retirement dull but it’s a good routine for me most days. I get up and exercise, eat breakfast, do some dishes or laundry, and then usually have most of the day free to do what feels interesting. Reading, cooking, garden projects, baking bread, meditating, helping someone in the family with something, occasionally a volunteer shift. Overall, it’s fairly slow but peaceful. I’ve never found happiness from a busy schedule. I’ve also needed a lot of time and space to think about how I want to spend my time. The answers change often and there has been some trial and error.
I hope you find some happiness. We’re not following the typical life pattern so it can be hard forging our own path.
I think eventually I could live near my oldest daughter whenever she settles down in a place. Right now her husband is in grad school, so moving near them right now would be dumb since they won't be there much longer. In the meantime I have a few good friends in town and my youngest daughter still in high school. I do think I'd like to be near more family...my parents are gone and the family I do have is in a place I probably wouldn't want to live, so hopefully my kids all end up in the same area. Wishful thinking, haha!
And I totally agree about not following the typical life pattern making things a bit harder. I have noticed it's harder for people to relate to me because I don't work and can't say I'm a "fill in the blank" when they ask what I "do". It confuses me, because other than having no job, I pretty much have the same life as everyone else, right? I put my pants on the same way everyone else does. Maybe I'm not comfortable with my retirement status yet and that hinders me, I'm not totally sure.
I'm in money money management. maybe they ask questions about what they should do and you can give them some great resources.
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Okay, so let's cover a bit of ground here first.
Let's talk depression vs suffering.
Depression and suffering can manifest the exact same way: feeling hopeless, inability to enjoy things, inability to feel at peace with life, etc, etc.
The major difference is that suffering is a normal, reasonable, and proportional response to a negative event in your life. It can be even more severe than clinical depression. For example, if someone loses a child, that can result in a totally proportional level of suffering that is totally unmanageable and unbearable.
But it's NOT depression.
Life events can't cause depression, but they can trigger it. So mourning can trigger a depression and that person then doesn't recover from the mourning on a normal timeline.
Depression is an *abnormal* state of suffering that is not or no longer reasonable or proportional to the events happening in the person's life.
Both can require similar treatment, but the distinction is VERY important, because the treatment is meaningfully different.
For suffering, the treatment can require medication, but is primarily about processing the traumatic/negative experiences to make sure that they don't create maladaptive patterns of thoughts and behaviours. When someone experiences something difficult, a loss, a major change, abuse, etc, it can either entrench itself and make the person overall less healthy, or it can be processed effectively and make the person more resilient.
The purpose of treatment is to get the person back to a health state where they can return to their normal, healthy function in life.
Depression is a totally different creature. Depression makes it impossible to be healthy. It's not just a matter of processing things, the brain will simply not allow the person to be able to enjoy their life because they're not capable of a proportionate, normal response to things.
Happy feelings don't last as long as they should, safety never totally feels safe, life just lacks that feeling of being okay.
Now to OP, do you have a proportionate suffering response to major life changes or has it evolved into a mild depression? It's impossible for an internet stranger to say, but as someone with A LOT of knowledge on suffering, I have a strong suspicion it could be that you've had mild depression triggered.
There's nothing actually wrong with your life and you are struggling to find activities and things to *make* your life feel okay. To me, it doesn't sound like that's working or that it's going to work. I don't know that you can solve this problem with "logic" if there's a fundamental basis for you not feeling comfortable and happy in your life.
Let me illustrate with a counter example so you can see what I mean.
I'm in my late 30s, I studied for over a decade for my dream job, I LOVED my dream job, but then got extremely ill, diagnosed with a rare, very disabling disease, and had to give up my dream job, that I LOVED, after only working for 7 years.
I suffered immensely with severe mourning, loss of identity, loss of function, loss of my ability to walk comfortably, and I am in constant, and I mean *constant* pain. I, like you, struggle constantly with figuring out what to do with myself because I physically can't do most things, not consistently. So my life is very limited in many ways.
So I have all of the reasons in the world to be dissatisfied with my life, and yet, I'm quite happy, peaceful, and very at ease with my life. I have rough days, but for the most part, I'm very satisfied.
I didn't always feel this way, I've gone through a lot of therapy to make sure that my suffering was processed and didn't turn into negativity and toxicity. This also helped prevent it triggering depression, which runs in my family.
The only way for me to really accurately describe my current mental health state despite still experiencing a significant, legitimate amount of profound suffering is that I'm *not depressed*. I don't have a better way to explain it other than that I feel like every negative feeling I have is entirely within reason, totally manageable, and doesn't define my state of being.
I'm explaining my experience to help you put yours in perspective. If you feel about your life like I do, that no matter what is going on, no matter how painful things get, that you are still good, and life is still rich and fulfilling, then you're doing fine and don't need any therapy.
However, it doesn't sound that way, and what's critical is to determine if your negative feelings are entirely in line with their triggers, or if you've been knocked into some degree of depression where you literally can't feel comfortable in your life until you resolve it.
Whatever the case, hobbies, a job, etc, aren't going to solve the problem. Not having a source of purpose doesn't make people feel the way you are feeling, there has to be something maladaptive happening at the same time.
As other people have said, that's not unusual for this stage of life. Many people experience difficulties with mental health during this stage of transition in life. It's common, but that doesn't mean it should be brushed off as normal.
Whatever is going on, there is some degree of a mentally unhealthy process happening, and that needs to be effectively addressed, and not by going back to work or volunteering more.
It's time to stop looking outwards for the answers and start looking inwards.
Your life could be much, much worse and if you were perfectly mentally healthy, you would feel better. So tackle the mental health first, *then* focus on figuring out what your best life looks like at this stage.
This was very helpful, thank you for taking the time to write all of that. Reading this definitely gives me perspective on what might be going on with me. I like the idea that it could just be normal that I'm sad that my kids are growing up and moving on, or on the flip side, like you said, I could have some unhealthy processes going on. I'm really going to think on this and try to understand which it is. Thanks again! :)
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Malcat’s response above is gold…better than gold. I saw her post something similar in another thread recently and it really resonated with me and a situation I’m currently working my way through.
I had one other thought in response to your post and that was around everything that has kept you busy over the past 24+ years. Three kids, a marriage, then raising kids after divorce, a stressful career, loss of parents, etc. Is it possible all of this kept you so busy that you were never able to sit with and process your own feelings and now you do have time, and are facing some difficult feelings? If this is the case, I’d definitely suggest you consider some counseling.
Wishing you the best.
Oh yes, for sure I think I had been too busy to deal with a few things...losing my Dad, who I was very close to, losing my Mom, who I had a really difficult relationship with and definitely the emptying nest...now all I have is time and my feelings leak out of my dang face way too much!
By the way, love your user name, I love the beach too. It's cold here, so I want to be at a beach now!
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This is something Malcat said to me when I wondered why I was feeling more depressed and anxious after my family situation started to improve. When you mentioned leaving your job because of burnout I had to find this quote. I don't know if it will help with the situation but it might feel better to know that someone else is going through something similar.
Also, it's not unusual for mental health to suffer when things are less objectively intense, because when things are really bad, you dissociate to a certain degree and can't feel the damage that's happening. That's why so many people think they can handle so much, but they can't, they're just deferring the processing.
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This is something Malcat said to me when I wondered why I was feeling more depressed and anxious after my family situation started to improve. When you mentioned leaving your job because of burnout I had to find this quote. I don't know if it will help with the situation but it might feel better to know that someone else is going through something similar.
Also, it's not unusual for mental health to suffer when things are less objectively intense, because when things are really bad, you dissociate to a certain degree and can't feel the damage that's happening. That's why so many people think they can handle so much, but they can't, they're just deferring the processing.
Thanks for digging this up; I needed to read that one. My job has been much, much better this year than last, yet I'm struggling much more, & this handily explains why.
Last year was a smear of hazy disbelief punctuated by occasional bewildered crying jags, all coped with by working at a frenzied pace for obscene hours (though that was usually mandatory.) This year the work demand & abuse/ bullshittery's much more moderate, but I wake up most days in a state of doomed misery, then feel all the life & sense crushed out of me by the time I have two hours left in my shift. I no longer have a knife to my metaphorical neck, so I'm actually feeling what the job does to me. (Yikes.)
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Empty nest is hard. N=1 but for us, my wife had a much harder time than I did adjusting to it. She took about two years to get comfortable with it. I FIREd in May and just decided to take 20h/week in consulting work, because I enjoy it, not because I really need the money.
Agree with most of the above advice, my contribution is to be kind to yourself and give yourself time to unwind. Consensus is you need a year to adjust to FIRE. Doing FIRE, empty nest, divorce, and parents passing all at once is a lot. I don't think a year of adjustment is unreasonable.
Big Sister might be something to look into.
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This is something Malcat said to me when I wondered why I was feeling more depressed and anxious after my family situation started to improve. When you mentioned leaving your job because of burnout I had to find this quote. I don't know if it will help with the situation but it might feel better to know that someone else is going through something similar.
Also, it's not unusual for mental health to suffer when things are less objectively intense, because when things are really bad, you dissociate to a certain degree and can't feel the damage that's happening. That's why so many people think they can handle so much, but they can't, they're just deferring the processing.
That's really insightful; thanks for finding that quote (and thanks Malcat for sharing your wisdom; I always appreciate your posts :) ).
I have definitely experienced this delayed reaction at various times of my life but haven't quite thought about it in this way, especially not when it comes to work stresses...those are socially constructed as things we are expected to just handle, right? To compartmentalize, to close the door on when we go home after work, to not allow to have an effect on our real inner lives. I feel that even when we are spending most of our waking hours at work, the challenges we face there are somehow not supposed to have a real effect on us that causes actual damage that we then need actual time and effort to recover from. We are supposed to be strong and simply not let this happen. And even if you're having crying jags after work, well, that's not long-term damage that you'll have to process later, right? Simply remove the cause, and that'll flip the switch right back to the way you were before. Yeah.
Probably this all intersects with the traditional refusal to recognize that mental health needs are real + the associated stigmatization of them. It's wonderful to see how much attitudes around that are changing, but obviously there's a lot of lingering...stuff.
On a more personal note, I have been feeling pretty validated in my burned-out-ness by watching my replacement take on (a scaled down version of) my responsibilities; we've had a few conversations that boil down to wondering how to possibly stay in shouting distance of being on top of everything. Me: "You can't. Accept that now." Replacement: "...I don't know how you did this* for five years..." Me: Hahahahaha. (=shell-shocked laughter sprinkled with a weird combo of excitement at leaving + flashbacks to, ahem, particularly challenging moments of a couple of years ago when I was on the brink of quitting multiple times)
*Honestly, I don't either. It's much better at work now than it was two years ago, but as Malcat described...I dissociated and deferred the processing for a bunch of what happened then. I felt I had to; people were depending on me to keep functioning at a high level, and so I did, come hell or high water. I don't regret that, but I'm so glad I decided to go ahead and pull the plug now and lay all of this down. Three more weeks until my last day...and I'm resolved to have very gentle expectations of myself and really prioritize my mental and physical health for at least the next several months.
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This is something Malcat said to me when I wondered why I was feeling more depressed and anxious after my family situation started to improve. When you mentioned leaving your job because of burnout I had to find this quote. I don't know if it will help with the situation but it might feel better to know that someone else is going through something similar.
Also, it's not unusual for mental health to suffer when things are less objectively intense, because when things are really bad, you dissociate to a certain degree and can't feel the damage that's happening. That's why so many people think they can handle so much, but they can't, they're just deferring the processing.
That's really insightful; thanks for finding that quote (and thanks Malcat for sharing your wisdom; I always appreciate your posts :) ).
I have definitely experienced this delayed reaction at various times of my life but haven't quite thought about it in this way, especially not when it comes to work stresses...those are socially constructed as things we are expected to just handle, right? To compartmentalize, to close the door on when we go home after work, to not allow to have an effect on our real inner lives. I feel that even when we are spending most of our waking hours at work, the challenges we face there are somehow not supposed to have a real effect on us that causes actual damage that we then need actual time and effort to recover from. We are supposed to be strong and simply not let this happen. And even if you're having crying jags after work, well, that's not long-term damage that you'll have to process later, right? Simply remove the cause, and that'll flip the switch right back to the way you were before. Yeah.
Probably this all intersects with the traditional refusal to recognize that mental health needs are real + the associated stigmatization of them. It's wonderful to see how much attitudes around that are changing, but obviously there's a lot of lingering...stuff.
On a more personal note, I have been feeling pretty validated in my burned-out-ness by watching my replacement take on (a scaled down version of) my responsibilities; we've had a few conversations that boil down to wondering how to possibly stay in shouting distance of being on top of everything. Me: "You can't. Accept that now." Replacement: "...I don't know how you did this* for five years..." Me: Hahahahaha. (=shell-shocked laughter sprinkled with a weird combo of excitement at leaving + flashbacks to, ahem, particularly challenging moments of a couple of years ago when I was on the brink of quitting multiple times)
*Honestly, I don't either. It's much better at work now than it was two years ago, but as Malcat described...I dissociated and deferred the processing for a bunch of what happened then. I felt I had to; people were depending on me to keep functioning at a high level, and so I did, come hell or high water. I don't regret that, but I'm so glad I decided to go ahead and pull the plug now and lay all of this down. Three more weeks until my last day...and I'm resolved to have very gentle expectations of myself and really prioritize my mental and physical health for at least the next several months.
Is this a prevailing belief?
Where I am, it's always been acknowledged that yes, work fucks you up, but the cold, corporate expectation is that you deal with it on your own time and don't let it affect your work.
However, the allowance has always been given that the damage happens.
It could be a cultural difference of living in a city where the government is the largest employer and they openly acknowledge their problems with employee burnout and the troubling prevalence of people taking short term disability as a result of workplace stress.
So it's just not part of the discourse here that work shouldn't cause emotional damage, but it is largely shrugged off as an unfortunate, but difficult to avoid consequence that no one knows how to solve so no one really tries.
I have personally always trained my staff that there is no honour in working themselves into the ground.
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FWIW, it's never been much acknowledged by my employers, but that's a small sample set, so I don't know. It's also possible my perceptions have been skewed by the way I was raised; my parents always considered it immensely unacceptable to acknowledge or admit to the existence of emotional damage from...anything, really.
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FWIW, it's never been much acknowledged by my employers, but that's a small sample set, so I don't know. It's also possible my perceptions have been skewed by the way I was raised; my parents always considered it immensely unacceptable to acknowledge or admit to the existence of emotional damage from...anything, really.
That seriously sucks.
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You likely hadn't really considered retiring TO something (new career, traveling, specific hobby, bucket list stuff, etc) and that's likely part of it too.
Yeah I definitely didn't retire TO anything, I was just burnt out and had to go. Not much I can do about that now, not for lack of trying, LOL!
I retired "to" something and it was a mistake and really messed with my decompression.
This is a fresh take and one that I don't see anywhere. I am retiring from something for sure, but that's just the first step in the journey. I need some time and space to clear the crap out of my brain caused by a full time job and I fully intend to fill it back up with a combination of various hobbies and other pursuits. But, to expect me to solve what all that will entail is too much to ask in my opinion while I'm still serving time.
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You likely hadn't really considered retiring TO something (new career, traveling, specific hobby, bucket list stuff, etc) and that's likely part of it too.
Yeah I definitely didn't retire TO anything, I was just burnt out and had to go. Not much I can do about that now, not for lack of trying, LOL!
I retired "to" something and it was a mistake and really messed with my decompression.
This is a fresh take and one that I don't see anywhere. I am retiring from something for sure, but that's just the first step in the journey. I need some time and space to clear the crap out of my brain caused by a full time job and I fully intend to fill it back up with a combination of various hobbies and other pursuits. But, to expect me to solve what all that will entail is too much to ask in my opinion while I'm still serving time.
The "retire to" thing is for people who aren't overly autonomous in their own lives. If they don't "retire to" something, they risk aimlessly doing nothing and fading away. It's common, but it's nonsense for the FI crowd, which is by definition an autonomous group of people who are perfectly capable of directing our own lives.
FWIW, I didn't "retire to" something because I as afraid of doing nothing, I did it because I wanted to open the door to future alternative part time career options, so I "retired to" an intensive graduate degree. I figured it would give me an excuse to hunker down and read a lot. It was a nice idea, but what I really needed *was* actually to do nothing for awhile.
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You likely hadn't really considered retiring TO something (new career, traveling, specific hobby, bucket list stuff, etc) and that's likely part of it too.
Yeah I definitely didn't retire TO anything, I was just burnt out and had to go. Not much I can do about that now, not for lack of trying, LOL!
I retired "to" something and it was a mistake and really messed with my decompression.
This is a fresh take and one that I don't see anywhere. I am retiring from something for sure, but that's just the first step in the journey. I need some time and space to clear the crap out of my brain caused by a full time job and I fully intend to fill it back up with a combination of various hobbies and other pursuits. But, to expect me to solve what all that will entail is too much to ask in my opinion while I'm still serving time.
I didn't retire to anything. I don't think it's required as well. I do think there will be an adjustment period but I also think that will be on-going and I don't think retiring to something would help the adjustment period.
I don't see retirement as constantly looking to do more stuff. I do stuff to amuse myself or keep myself busy. It's for my own piece of mind. That means if I just want to smoke pot, play guitar and read it's all good.
Honestly I spend more time cooking, reading, playing guitar and exercising.
I've been retired over a year now and I'm still adjusting to the slower pace.
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You likely hadn't really considered retiring TO something (new career, traveling, specific hobby, bucket list stuff, etc) and that's likely part of it too.
Yeah I definitely didn't retire TO anything, I was just burnt out and had to go. Not much I can do about that now, not for lack of trying, LOL!
I retired "to" something and it was a mistake and really messed with my decompression.
This is a fresh take and one that I don't see anywhere. I am retiring from something for sure, but that's just the first step in the journey. I need some time and space to clear the crap out of my brain caused by a full time job and I fully intend to fill it back up with a combination of various hobbies and other pursuits. But, to expect me to solve what all that will entail is too much to ask in my opinion while I'm still serving time.
I didn't retire to anything. I don't think it's required as well. I do think there will be an adjustment period but I also think that will be on-going and I don't think retiring to something would help the adjustment period.
I don't see retirement as constantly looking to do more stuff. I do stuff to amuse myself or keep myself busy. It's for my own piece of mind. That means if I just want to smoke pot, play guitar and read it's all good.
Honestly I spend more time cooking, reading, playing guitar and exercising.
I've been retired over a year now and I'm still adjusting to the slower pace.
This is so true, I spend no time looking for stuff to do. Quite the opposite, I just do whatever I feel like doing and I find stuff to do along the way.
The world is filled with shit to do, and when you have free time, it's actually easier to be more aware of it.
I spend more time talking to the people I encounter now, and it's amazing how many things come up when I'm not rushing to be somewhere else.
I also read the posters at the library, and subscribe to a bunch of newsletters about things happening in the community. So I always k know when something really interesting is happening nearby.
I never ever feel like I'm chasing something to do, the world is filled with things to do, I'm just much more aware of them.
It's amazing how much of the world you tune out when you don't have time for it.
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This is so true, I spend no time looking for stuff to do. Quite the opposite, I just do whatever I feel like doing and I find stuff to do along the way.
The world is filled with shit to do, and when you have free time, it's actually easier to be more aware of it.
I spend more time talking to the people I encounter now, and it's amazing how many things come up when I'm not rushing to be somewhere else.
I also read the posters at the library, and subscribe to a bunch of newsletters about things happening in the community. So I always k know when something really interesting is happening nearby.
I never ever feel like I'm chasing something to do, the world is filled with things to do, I'm just much more aware of them.
It's amazing how much of the world you tune out when you don't have time for it.
It’s over a year since I retired as I type this on a typical weekday morning. I slept well last night and got up rested. Went to the gym and worked out for an hour. Had a leisurely breakfast and read the papers. And now it’s about 9am. I don’t have any chores for the day: no bills to be paid, no documents to be filed, no grocery shopping. In fact, I have absolutely no demands on my time for the rest of the day.
I can do whatever I want and furthermore, there is no shortage of things that I want to do:
- I have assembled a dream workshop in my basement and could work on building scale models and run my model trains
- I have at least a dozen fascinating books that that I want to read
- I could be working on a programming project that promises to be fun
And yet on some days, I feel a bit paralyzed because a small part of my mind is screaming “its Monday morning - get to work”. On those days, it does take some conscious effort to get out of this state. The good news is that the number of days when I get this feeling is decreasing as time passes. It takes a while to overcome the programming of decades.
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This is so true, I spend no time looking for stuff to do. Quite the opposite, I just do whatever I feel like doing and I find stuff to do along the way.
The world is filled with shit to do, and when you have free time, it's actually easier to be more aware of it.
I spend more time talking to the people I encounter now, and it's amazing how many things come up when I'm not rushing to be somewhere else.
I also read the posters at the library, and subscribe to a bunch of newsletters about things happening in the community. So I always k know when something really interesting is happening nearby.
I never ever feel like I'm chasing something to do, the world is filled with things to do, I'm just much more aware of them.
It's amazing how much of the world you tune out when you don't have time for it.
It’s over a year since I retired as I type this on a typical weekday morning. I slept well last night and got up rested. Went to the gym and worked out for an hour. Had a leisurely breakfast and read the papers. And now it’s about 9am. I don’t have any chores for the day: no bills to be paid, no documents to be filed, no grocery shopping. In fact, I have absolutely no demands on my time for the rest of the day.
I can do whatever I want and furthermore, there is no shortage of things that I want to do:
- I have assembled a dream workshop in my basement and could work on building scale models and run my model trains
- I have at least a dozen fascinating books that that I want to read
- I could be working on a programming project that promises to be fun
And yet on some days, I feel a bit paralyzed because a small part of my mind is screaming “its Monday morning - get to work”. On those days, it does take some conscious effort to get out of this state. The good news is that the number of days when I get this feeling is decreasing as time passes. It takes a while to overcome the programming of decades.
I solve this "get to work" reflex by doing morning physio stretches. It's my go to when I feel I need to start my day productive.
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It's amazing how much of the world you tune out when you don't have time for it.
This is to me a really interesting point. I've learnt so much more about the world compared to prior to retirement. I've also spend so much time doing stuff that isn't learning but just doing meaningless stuff like playing board games or reading fantasy novels.