Author Topic: Consider life expectancy in retirement  (Read 4661 times)

MustacheAndaHalf

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Consider life expectancy in retirement
« on: April 23, 2023, 01:00:30 AM »
I see a lot of people considering the location and cost of where they retire, and I thought life expectancy might be worth considering.  The people in each country vary, a majority of whom stay living in the same country they were born in.  I suspect each country's culture influences healthy choices by its people, resulting in higher life expectancy.  Health care systems are also a more direct factor, but here's the list without those nuances separated out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
That page's latest data is from CIA World Factbook (2022):

(6) Canada   83.80 yrs
(14) Australia   83.09 yrs
(24) New Zealand   82.54 yrs
(31) United Kingdom   81.94 yrs
(72) United States   78.38 yrs (*)

I'm not claiming you'll live a full 5.42 years longer by moving North to Canada.  Habits like smoking can't be fixed the day you retire, but other things like the health care system might.  I imagine it might require planning ahead if you plan to work and then retire somewhere outside the U.S., but it's worth considering.


(*) The Centers for Disease Control cites life expectancy of 76.1 years as of Aug 2022:

"Life expectancy at birth in the United States declined nearly a year from 2020 to 2021, according to new provisional data from the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS). That decline – 77.0 to 76.1 years – took U.S. life expectancy at birth to its lowest level since 1996. The 0.9 year drop in life expectancy in 2021, along with a 1.8 year drop in 2020, was the biggest two-year decline in life expectancy since 1921-1923."
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/20220831.htm

Kwill

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2023, 01:39:30 AM »
This is an interesting question. The overall number for a country's average life expectancy is probably mostly determined by what happens in infancy through young adulthood because people who die 50 or 60 years too soon will affect the average numbers more than elderly people who live 3 years more or less. Rather than only looking at the average life expectancy, you might want to look at causes of death by age (scroll down a bit to find different categories and add countries to charts).

Looking at the ages people die in Canada, the UK, and the US, it seems like the US is a much more dangerous place to be under 50. For ages 50 and up, it is not as different. So if you're only considering life expectancy, you might want to spend your working years elsewhere, rather than your retirement.
Edit: Actually, I think I'm confused about how to read the chart I linked. It looks as if about 40% of deaths in the US are people in each age group, but since there are five age groups, it seems like there wouldn't be anyone left at all. Maybe something is a little off in the way it displays.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 01:44:41 AM by Kwill »

deborah

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2023, 02:48:45 AM »
Whenever our media in Australia talk about our life expectancies, for instance,

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-09/qld-health-life-expectancy-australia-dodges-covid19-decline/101625656

they tend to say that it has a lot to do with living long term in a place rather than where you end up. For instance, the indigenous population here has a life expectancy more than ten years less than that of other Australians. However, anyone who lives in remote areas here has similar, lower life expectancies partly because there are very few doctors in remote regions (the flying doctor service may come once a week to your small settlement), and people die of things like ingrown toenails that can be easily treated.

Good health care systems tend to treat things over lifetimes. In such systems there are numerous vaccines that are given to the population at school age and at other ages as appropriate. Here, the shingles, influenza, meningococcal b, and pneumonia vaccines are all free for people over 70 or 65. We developed the HPV vaccine, made it free to the appropriate age group, and expect to be the first country in the world where cervical cancer is eliminated in a few years. Like other countries with good health care, we also have screening for a number of cancers. I’m not saying we’re “the best” - every country on your list has good health care but is going to do things differently, and is going to get different things right.

Our life expectancy has increased by more than eleven years since I was born. This is similar in many other countries.

Certainly, there are some things that increase life expectancy, that migrants can take advantage of. Clean air, water, less adulterated food… But you can choose better quality places in your own country, and you can survey the vaccinations and the screenings available in different countries and pay for additional ones that you think are appropriate for you. Australia has the highest incidence of skin cancer in the world (we’re a very sunny place, with a mainly Northern European derived population), so we’re going to have more skin cancer checks than would be appropriate for other nations.

bill1827

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2023, 03:33:28 AM »
Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.

deborah

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2023, 04:15:52 AM »
The Australian Bureau of Statistics (the government statistician) produced this article

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/featurearticlesbytitle/D09B5C96564AAE67CA256B820080412D?OpenDocument

Where they compare the life expectancy from age 30 (most migrants arrive when they’re 27) of migrants to people born in Australia. The migrants have a higher life expectancy, even though most have arrived from countries with a lower life expectancy.

stoaX

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2023, 04:52:19 AM »
There are plenty of life expectancy calculators that tailor the results to your particular situation. That should be better than using some overall nationwide statistic.  Most importantly they consider the age you have already attained.  My chance of suffering infant mortality is zero, but the nationwide stats have that baked in. 

For planning purposes I always assume I will live to 100 because it's a big round number that's easy to work with.

nereo

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2023, 04:58:30 AM »
This post reminds me of the joke: “I read in the paper that 80% of all accidents happen within 5 miles of the home - so I moved”

Immigrating doesn’t alter your lifespan, how you live your life does.  As others have pointed out, the affluent can afford to live in safer, healthier locations with routine health care, and live a less stressful life and the breakdown of life expectancy charts reflect this. 

Metalcat

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2023, 07:18:35 AM »
Yeah, you have to be careful applying averages to individuals, especially on extremely complex, multifactorial outcomes like lifespan. This is ESPECIALLY important when looking at populations with large wealth inequality.

The place where you can afford good healthcare, nutritious food, and to live a low stress, physically active lifestyle is likely the best place for someone to live in terms of longevity and quality of life.

You simply cannot compare the life expectancy of a wealthy expat in Mexico to the average life expectancy in Mexico, that would make no sense.

uk_american1

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2023, 07:24:18 AM »
But you can choose better quality places in your own country, and you can survey the vaccinations and the screenings available in different countries and pay for additional ones that you think are appropriate for you. Australia has the highest incidence of skin cancer in the world (we’re a very sunny place, with a mainly Northern European derived population), so we’re going to have more skin cancer checks than would be appropriate for other nations.

Building on this one, if you move to a different area it's also useful to be aware of problems or issues that you might have based on your genetics or upbringing that are not familiar ones in your future area.

I grew up in a sunny area of the US and typical for my generation, we spent the summers outdoors. I moved to the UK in my 30's. In my early 40's I went to the GP about an odd spot on my face, the nurse practitioner didn't know what it was or what to do about it. I thought it was some kind of skin cancer, she got out a reference book and told me it wasn't. 'Let's just look at it in a month.' As I had private insurance I asked for a referral to a dermatologist.

The woman had 30 years of experience and guessed that it was Basel Cell Carcinoma (spoiler: it was) but she wasn't certain and referred me to a higher level specialist. She kept commenting that 'this doesn't make sense for your age, you should be at least 10 years older to have this!' She then told me to never use a tanning bed again. I have never used one in my life but it just didn't compute for her as I didn't fit the usual footprint.

In contrast, my genetics are Eastern European and when I worked over there they were awfully quick to diagnose a tumor as it was a common genetic ailment there.

If I went to another area with a different population both in genetics and upbringing (say, Japan or China), I'd pay extra attention to any health issues recognizing that complex issues might be challenging to medical professionals when you differ from the norm.


maizefolk

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2023, 07:40:57 AM »
The US population is not homogeneous and between group differences in the USA can be significantly larger than the difference between overall life expectancy in the USA and in other nations.

For example, people with college degrees in the USA (a proxy for both education and lifetime income/access to healthcare) live, overall, about seven years longer than people without college degrees. So ensuring one has enough money to get access to good healthcare and doing the things educated people are more likely to do* (e.g. regular checkups, healthy and diverse diet, not smoking, etc) could produce the same or bigger changes without the hassle of emigration.

*Whether or not one has a college degree oneself.

stoaX

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2023, 07:49:57 AM »
This post reminds me of the joke: “I read in the paper that 80% of all accidents happen within 5 miles of the home - so I moved”

Immigrating doesn’t alter your lifespan, how you live your life does.  As others have pointed out, the affluent can afford to live in safer, healthier locations with routine health care, and live a less stressful life and the breakdown of life expectancy charts reflect this.

I went to my brother-in-law's house today, 8 miles away from mine. I felt much safer knowing I had a 3 mile buffer between me and the 5 mile radius of my house. I will have to go home sometime though, wish me luck!

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2023, 09:20:41 AM »
Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

GuitarStv

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2023, 09:30:46 AM »
Honestly, longevity is nowhere near as concerning to me as quality of life.  I'd rather die at 80 still mostly mentally there and with the ability to move around and do stuff than be kept alive without knowing who I am or what I'm doing and crippled.

Ron Scott

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2023, 09:34:43 AM »
There are plenty of life expectancy calculators that tailor the results to your particular situation. That should be better than using some overall nationwide statistic.  Most importantly they consider the age you have already attained.  My chance of suffering infant mortality is zero, but the nationwide stats have that baked in. 

For planning purposes I always assume I will live to 100 because it's a big round number that's easy to work with.

This ^

If you haven’t been diagnosed, planning to live to 78 is a bad FI strategy.

nereo

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2023, 09:43:36 AM »
Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

Ah, so this is just another of your threads to hate on the US.  Gotcha.
The difference here isn’t the amount we spend on health care (which is absolutely abysmal) but access, which is nOt universal. Presumably most FIREes have continuous healthcare for the majority of their adult lives and plan for continued coverage n retirement.  Without separating out those with no health-care or substantial gaps in coverage the comparison is meaningless.  Further, ex-pats are often limited or curtailed from the health care systems of their adopted countries. 

Cassie

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2023, 09:47:50 AM »
All 4 of my grandparents were born in the 1800’s and all lived longer than the average life expectancy now and none had cognitive problems. It’s both genetics and lifestyle.

GuitarStv

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2023, 09:49:02 AM »
All 4 of my grandparents were born in the 1800’s and all lived longer than the average life expectancy now and none had cognitive problems. It’s both genetics and lifestyle.

Genetics determines what will happen for you in the best possible case.  Lifestyle determines how much you take advantage of all that potential.

Metalcat

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2023, 10:38:17 AM »
All 4 of my grandparents were born in the 1800’s and all lived longer than the average life expectancy now and none had cognitive problems. It’s both genetics and lifestyle.

Genetics determines what will happen for you in the best possible case.  Lifestyle determines how much you take advantage of all that potential.

AKA "genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger"

TreeLeaf

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2023, 01:34:44 PM »
All 4 of my grandparents were born in the 1800’s and all lived longer than the average life expectancy now and none had cognitive problems. It’s both genetics and lifestyle.

Genetics determines what will happen for you in the best possible case.  Lifestyle determines how much you take advantage of all that potential.

AKA "genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger"

Yeah - if it were only genetics I would have already had cancer, diabetes, a stroke, and been locked up in a mental hospital already like my biological parents. I'm very glad I have some control over things via lifestyle.

I'm personally planning on spending the money down until I hit 70, then I will live on whatever social security is at that time. Longevity problem has already been solved by the government.

deborah

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2023, 03:19:21 PM »
Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

Ah, so this is just another of your threads to hate on the US.  Gotcha.
The difference here isn’t the amount we spend on health care (which is absolutely abysmal) but access, which is nOt universal. Presumably most FIREes have continuous healthcare for the majority of their adult lives and plan for continued coverage n retirement.  Without separating out those with no health-care or substantial gaps in coverage the comparison is meaningless.  Further, ex-pats are often limited or curtailed from the health care systems of their adopted countries. 
As I said above, the statistics in Australia say that migrants have better outcomes than they would have in their own countries. 24% of our population is of migrants and I was surprised to see the results I posted above.

It doesn’t seem that this is a “hate on the US” thread to me.

In the US more is spent on healthcare per person than in any other country. For instance see

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2023/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2022

for a comparison of many health indicators between various countries. (Note that this study includes covid information that’s out of date - Australia and NZ were hit by the pandemic, and got vaccines later than everyone else, so the comparisons are too early). It’s interesting how different screening regimens affect the detection and deaths from some diseases in this study, and that the US has better outcomes than every other country for some diseases where screening is done. This means that each of us personally could follow a best practice screening regimen for a better personal outcome.

As Cassie alluded, I have always been told that the most likely predictor of your own lifespan is your parents’ and the next most likely is your grandparents’. However, all of us live in countries where lifespan for everyone has increased incredibly over our own and our parents’ lives.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2023, 08:28:50 PM »
Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

Ah, so this is just another of your threads to hate on the US.  Gotcha.
The difference here isn’t the amount we spend on health care (which is absolutely abysmal) but access, which is nOt universal. Presumably most FIREes have continuous healthcare for the majority of their adult lives and plan for continued coverage n retirement.  Without separating out those with no health-care or substantial gaps in coverage the comparison is meaningless.  Further, ex-pats are often limited or curtailed from the health care systems of their adopted countries.
Reported you to the moderators for "2. Attack an argument, not a person."
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/

This is the first thread I've created in a long time, so your claim is also false.  But primarily, you are attacking me, and not the argument.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2023, 08:54:57 PM »
But you can choose better quality places in your own country, and you can survey the vaccinations and the screenings available in different countries and pay for additional ones that you think are appropriate for you. Australia has the highest incidence of skin cancer in the world (we’re a very sunny place, with a mainly Northern European derived population), so we’re going to have more skin cancer checks than would be appropriate for other nations.

Building on this one, if you move to a different area it's also useful to be aware of problems or issues that you might have based on your genetics or upbringing that are not familiar ones in your future area.

I grew up in a sunny area of the US and typical for my generation, we spent the summers outdoors. I moved to the UK in my 30's. In my early 40's I went to the GP about an odd spot on my face, the nurse practitioner didn't know what it was or what to do about it. I thought it was some kind of skin cancer, she got out a reference book and told me it wasn't. 'Let's just look at it in a month.' As I had private insurance I asked for a referral to a dermatologist.

The woman had 30 years of experience and guessed that it was Basel Cell Carcinoma (spoiler: it was) but she wasn't certain and referred me to a higher level specialist. She kept commenting that 'this doesn't make sense for your age, you should be at least 10 years older to have this!' She then told me to never use a tanning bed again. I have never used one in my life but it just didn't compute for her as I didn't fit the usual footprint.

In contrast, my genetics are Eastern European and when I worked over there they were awfully quick to diagnose a tumor as it was a common genetic ailment there.

If I went to another area with a different population both in genetics and upbringing (say, Japan or China), I'd pay extra attention to any health issues recognizing that complex issues might be challenging to medical professionals when you differ from the norm.
Japan has the highest life expectancy by some measures (like CIA World Factbook), which is reinforced by some Japanese making new world records for oldest person.  But I figured learning a new language may be too big a committment for most retirees (although I believe that can delay dementia).  I assume Japanese and Chinese languages are far too big a leap.  Maybe for Americans who took Spanish in high school, getting back up to speed might be a smaller leap.

Other than Spain (ranked 23rd, age 82.55 yrs), I found a few Spanish-speaking countries in South America that ranked close to the U.S. (Mexico is 160th, at 72.32 yrs).

71) Uruguay  78.43 yrs
72) United States  78.38 yrs (or 76 years from CDC data)
73) Paraguay  78.37 yrs
74) Argentina  78.31 yrs

Metalcat

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2023, 06:03:11 AM »
Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

Ah, so this is just another of your threads to hate on the US.  Gotcha.
The difference here isn’t the amount we spend on health care (which is absolutely abysmal) but access, which is nOt universal. Presumably most FIREes have continuous healthcare for the majority of their adult lives and plan for continued coverage n retirement.  Without separating out those with no health-care or substantial gaps in coverage the comparison is meaningless.  Further, ex-pats are often limited or curtailed from the health care systems of their adopted countries.
Reported you to the moderators for "2. Attack an argument, not a person."
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/

This is the first thread I've created in a long time, so your claim is also false.  But primarily, you are attacking me, and not the argument.

To be fair, that really is him attacking the argument. It's possible nereo is mixing you up with someone else, but what they're attacking is an argument they believe someone is making repeatedly through different threads.

Again, it's possible there's been a mistake and it isn't you they're thinking of, I lose track of posters and mix them up all the time. But I don't personally see this as an attack on the person.

I've had criticism on my patterns of replies and I don't consider that an attack on me personally. But I also get how it could feel that way.

ender

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2023, 07:25:11 AM »
Yeah, you have to be careful applying averages to individuals, especially on extremely complex, multifactorial outcomes like lifespan. This is ESPECIALLY important when looking at populations with large wealth inequality.

The place where you can afford good healthcare, nutritious food, and to live a low stress, physically active lifestyle is likely the best place for someone to live in terms of longevity and quality of life.

You simply cannot compare the life expectancy of a wealthy expat in Mexico to the average life expectancy in Mexico, that would make no sense.

Yep.

Trends across massive populations are a bit questionable to apply to your own life.

For example, it's pretty easy to find far more useful datapoints than "do you live in the USA" - ie this has far more useful visualizations of life expectancy than broad sweeping statements.

Which is why I also sort of agree with @nereo that this is just another way to say "USA sucks."

Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

I find this a bit silly and it leads me to also feel, as @nereo does, that this is just a "hate on USA" approach.

For example, you basically sidestepped the actual point @bill1827 was making entirely to bash on the USA.

The USA also has particularly poor wealth/income inequality compared to the countries you are listing. But if the USA also has high income inequality, it's not surprising at all to me that the USA also would have lower life expectancies  (the link above shows pretty conclusively there is a strong relationship between income and life expectancy).


Metalcat

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2023, 08:01:35 AM »
Yeah, you have to be careful applying averages to individuals, especially on extremely complex, multifactorial outcomes like lifespan. This is ESPECIALLY important when looking at populations with large wealth inequality.

The place where you can afford good healthcare, nutritious food, and to live a low stress, physically active lifestyle is likely the best place for someone to live in terms of longevity and quality of life.

You simply cannot compare the life expectancy of a wealthy expat in Mexico to the average life expectancy in Mexico, that would make no sense.

Yep.

Trends across massive populations are a bit questionable to apply to your own life.

For example, it's pretty easy to find far more useful datapoints than "do you live in the USA" - ie this has far more useful visualizations of life expectancy than broad sweeping statements.

Which is why I also sort of agree with @nereo that this is just another way to say "USA sucks."

Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

I find this a bit silly and it leads me to also feel, as @nereo does, that this is just a "hate on USA" approach.

For example, you basically sidestepped the actual point @bill1827 was making entirely to bash on the USA.

The USA also has particularly poor wealth/income inequality compared to the countries you are listing. But if the USA also has high income inequality, it's not surprising at all to me that the USA also would have lower life expectancies  (the link above shows pretty conclusively there is a strong relationship between income and life expectancy).

Yep, Canada has serious inequality when it comes to access to care for very remote and indigenous communities, they are just so dramatically out numbered by people living in urban centers that the inequality doesn't play out in the averages.

Even then, I'm in a major city with world class hospitals and 10 minutes from here my mother was in a hospital that isn't even considered up to the standards of first world healthcare. Thank god her brain bleed had no actual treatment aside from supportive ICU care. And because of our system, we had no mechanism to take her to a better hospital.

Access to quality care has such a huge contributing factor to lifespan aggregate data.

In fact, the typical wealthy American has better access to care than the average Canadian. It's just that so many Americans have poor access that they drag the average impact of healthcare down in the aggregate data.

Believe me, many MANY Canadians, especially those of us with complex health issues dream of having the kind of healthcare access that Americans with good access have.

I'm currently going through a major surgery that's similar to another prolific poster here. We had hip issues around the same time, but mine were much more severe. I had to wait nearly a year longer than he did to get surgery and spent that entire year on crutches or in a wheelchair. He was able to fly around the US to find the best surgeon for the job, I was stuck with the Russian roulette Canadian system getting whatever surgeon I got where second opinions aren't usually a realistic option.

It's pure dumb luck that I ended up with a surgeon AND anesthesiologists who understand my other rare health issues, because they could have easily killed or permanently crippled me.

With my illness, if I weren't such a well educated health professional myself, my chances of dying young would be MUCH higher up here in Canada than if I had a lot of money and great insurance in the US.

Canada and the UK's systems are both currently collapsing. Sure, they're better at keeping more people alive, which is great and why we should invest in fixing them instead of letting them collapse and be abandoned, but for an individual with money, aka the typical person on this forum, they could actually put you at significantly higher risk of premature death compared to more unequal systems like in the US or Mexico.

No joke, I'm looking to move to Mexico at least half time so that I can get easier access to specialist care with specialists who actually have time and energy to handle my care properly.

I say this as someone who is an ER frequent flyer. If I didn't know my shit, I could be easily triaged as non-urgent and be left to wait for 12+ hours while slowly bleeding into my brain or from a dissected aorta. Or worse, be turned away from an ER because they don't have enough staff or even worse, the ER could be closed due to not enough staff.

So yeah, let's not look at averages, which include the impacts of wealth inequality, and infant mortality, which is another HUGE factor, and apply them to a bunch of wealthy individuals who survived their own births and childhoods.

That would be as useful as looking at the educational outcomes of the public schools in a given neighbourhood and saying "oh no, we can't live there if we want our kids to be well educated" but the whole time, you're planning to send them to the ultra expensive private school.

It just makes no sense.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2023, 09:35:12 AM »
...
Trends across massive populations are a bit questionable to apply to your own life.

For example, it's pretty easy to find far more useful datapoints than "do you live in the USA" - ie this has far more useful visualizations of life expectancy than broad sweeping statements.

Which is why I also sort of agree with @nereo that this is just another way to say "USA sucks."
I agree "Local Life Expectancies by Income" provides some insight.  The poorest 5% in each major city determine the life expectancy, as the upper half of the graph overlap neatly.

But that data stops at 2014, so it's almost a decade out of date.  For example, it claims Nevada has the lowest life expectancy (maybe then, but not now).  If you want a visualization that is less out of date, I prefer the CDC's state by state data.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/life_expectancy/life_expectancy.htm


The USA also has particularly poor wealth/income inequality compared to the countries you are listing. But if the USA also has high income inequality, it's not surprising at all to me that the USA also would have lower life expectancies  (the link above shows pretty conclusively there is a strong relationship between income and life expectancy).
The claim in your first sentence is false.  The Gini coefficients for the USA (#5) and UK (#9) are very similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#Gini_coefficient,_before_taxes_and_transfers

The USA has higher median income than the UK, but much lower life expectancy.  So your extrapolation from US data doesn't seem to hold when making international comparisons.


Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

I find this a bit silly and it leads me to also feel, as @nereo does, that this is just a "hate on USA" approach.
Universal health care is relevant to life expectancy.  If all you can do is dismiss that as "silly" and talk about how you "feel", there isn't much room for discussion.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2023, 09:58:01 AM »
For those planning to retire in the US, there's state by state life expectancy data in the form of a map:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/life_expectancy/life_expectancy.htm

After controlling for income, life expectancy still varies.  Income is a factor, but not the only factor.  My goal (now lost) in this thread was to explore location as a factor in life expectancy, with the idea you can pick where you retire and consider life expectancy of others in the region.  Maybe the local diet is high in fish and vegetables, and that helps.  Maybe emergency rooms are closer, which saves lifes when minutes matter (like with heart attacks).

I understand that everyone wants to talk about what they know, which is that income is a factor in life expectancy.  But it is not the only factor, and I had hoped some people would talk about more than what they already know.

ender

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2023, 10:30:52 AM »
For those planning to retire in the US, there's state by state life expectancy data in the form of a map:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/life_expectancy/life_expectancy.htm

After controlling for income, life expectancy still varies.  Income is a factor, but not the only factor.  My goal (now lost) in this thread was to explore location as a factor in life expectancy, with the idea you can pick where you retire and consider life expectancy of others in the region.  Maybe the local diet is high in fish and vegetables, and that helps.  Maybe emergency rooms are closer, which saves lifes when minutes matter (like with heart attacks).

I understand that everyone wants to talk about what they know, which is that income is a factor in life expectancy.  But it is not the only factor, and I had hoped some people would talk about more than what they already know.

the thing is though, compare this to https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-capita-income-by-state and you'll see a pretty strong trend.

for fun I did a comparison of this here.

Some observations:

  • 23/50 states are within 5 places of their ranking in both life expectancy/per capita income
  • only 16 states are more than 10 places away

So I still think your "income doesn't matter much" approach isn't particularly correct, considering how strong of a correlation there is across the USA - and this is just naively using all states as one large bucket. I suspect if you start breaking down states into larger areas, or split rural/suburban, and use their respective income breakdowns you will see this trend even more pronounced.

I am focusing on this because you seem to be handwaving it away. If you want to just not care about it? I guess that's fine.


For those planning to retire in the US, there's state by state life expectancy data in the form of a map:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/life_expectancy/life_expectancy.htm

After controlling for income, life expectancy still varies.  Income is a factor, but not the only factor.  My goal (now lost) in this thread was to explore location as a factor in life expectancy, with the idea you can pick where you retire and consider life expectancy of others in the region.  Maybe the local diet is high in fish and vegetables, and that helps.  Maybe emergency rooms are closer, which saves lifes when minutes matter (like with heart attacks).


I do not see much value at all in having an incredibly broad/abstract conversation on this topic when the goal is simply looking at where to retire as you stated (an individual decision, not an aggregate) if you don't want to look at the larger and more often relevant trends.

I suppose there is some consideration on whether life expectancy is low as a result of violent crime/elevated car accident deaths/etc, but I'm curious - how are you planning on using this information, when it's all in aggregate?

Or are you basically just looking for something like this - https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.117.032047



From your response to me earlier:

Quote
The USA has higher median income than the UK, but much lower life expectancy.  So your extrapolation from US data doesn't seem to hold when making international comparisons.

You addressed this only a few sentences before:

Quote
I agree "Local Life Expectancies by Income" provides some insight.  The poorest 5% in each major city determine the life expectancy, as the upper half of the graph overlap neatly.

Morning Glory

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2023, 10:33:20 AM »
 Admitting the USA has problems that should be addressed is not the same as hating the USA. I've seen this accusation flying around a LOT lately both on the forum and elsewhere, and I really don't get it. Wouldn't the wish for Americans to have longer life expectancies actually be a demonstration of LOVE for the USA, not hate?

(of course I know that other countries' systems are not perfect, but we could try just copying some of the things that work. I don't see how that is so "un-American")

Metalcat

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2023, 11:43:20 AM »
For those planning to retire in the US, there's state by state life expectancy data in the form of a map:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/life_expectancy/life_expectancy.htm

After controlling for income, life expectancy still varies.  Income is a factor, but not the only factor.  My goal (now lost) in this thread was to explore location as a factor in life expectancy, with the idea you can pick where you retire and consider life expectancy of others in the region.  Maybe the local diet is high in fish and vegetables, and that helps.  Maybe emergency rooms are closer, which saves lifes when minutes matter (like with heart attacks).

I understand that everyone wants to talk about what they know, which is that income is a factor in life expectancy.  But it is not the only factor, and I had hoped some people would talk about more than what they already know.

Okay...but when you talk about large geographic areas with huge aggregate data, then wealth and access to care are going to be the things that people talk about.

People here often talk about determinants of health and longevity, it's a common topic and wealth and access rarely come up because wealth and access are pretty universal in our population so it's not worth worrying about unless people are looking to move to places where the access could be a problem.

If you want to talk about determinants of health and longevity, then just ask specifically about that. The way you structured the OP, by focusing on locations and aggregate data, just invited people to talk about the factors that you don't want to talk about.

FTR, I have tons of thoughts about individual location choices and health determinants that don't have anything to do with populational/aggregate health data.

What do you want to talk about specifically?

ETA: I personally picked a location where obesity and alcoholism are a raging problem in the population, but I expect it to have a net benefit on my health because I don't drink and don't like the local high-carb, bland cuisine, so unlike where I live now where the restaurants are phenomenal, I am less likely to be tempted to go out to eat as a form of amusement. And because I don't drink, all of my non drinking friends out there are more outdoorsy and athletic since those are the only non-drinkers.

So largely *because* of those aggregate trends, I'm much more likely to stick to my own home cooked food and socialize by going outside with active people.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 11:47:35 AM by Metalcat »

Loren Ver

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2023, 05:27:45 PM »
I didn't really consider life expectancy when picking where to retire per se, but kinda did.  Bonds with people keep you young, so taking my family and moving away from our bonds since college seemed silly and the opposite of what we wanted so we stayed put (that any many other reasons- but mostly social bonds).

But you don't really move to a country, but an area, and this got me thinking about blue zones, areas where people live longer than normal life spans (usually over 100).  These places (towns/cities) happen all over, including the USA ;), but also Japan, Italy, Greece, Costa Rica....  So it is totally obtainable and you don't have to deal with as many giant messy data sets.  Of course most of this happens because of things like life long habits like eating....  That is, if these zones exist at all.

Doing this evaluation by country, unless you are evaluating something specific to that country, which most larger ones aren't monolithic, would be really hard to do.  Town or area would be better.  If the place has a nick name like Cancer Alley, maybe avoid it, no matter what the country average is :).

Loren

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2023, 07:22:27 PM »
I have worked diligently to build a wide social network in my community, mostly through frugal activities. As a result, I move fluidly through a wide variety of social groups.

I was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. The outpouring of love and support I have received has been incredibly uplifting, as has the expedient, quality healthcare. The value of social connections has been well documented. Why would I want to give that up?

Kwill

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2023, 01:27:35 PM »
This is turning into an interesting discussion. I don't want to get into the fight, but several people have made interesting points.

I wonder how good the data is for the various countries. If you were really picking a country based on the life expectancy, you'd want to be sure. Probably every country has some areas where they overcount or undercount things. Japan has had famous cases of dead people collecting pensions for up to a decade or more, but I don't know how common that is. It was news here and there in 2010, but there have been more recent cases, including one last month. Some adult children fail to report their parents' deaths because the money keeps coming automatically until someone contacts the authorities.


hybrid

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2023, 05:30:49 AM »
I believe there are two very different conversations going on here. The first is how long a FIRE person might plan to live in retirement, and a simple answer is that depends, but lack of access to quality healthcare usually isn’t the deciding factor.

The second is how long someone non-FIRE might live on average in their respective country. The US looks bad indeed compared to peer nations for a number of reasons, but suffice to say being poor in the US has real consequences measured across broad populations.

Ultimately family history, personal decisions, and a whole lot of randomness (good and bad) are the ingredients for any one persons lifespan. My mother passed from Parkinson’s at 79. Looking at my situation, I could very plausibly live to 100 with some good fortune.

jeroly

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2023, 06:07:53 AM »
It's not a bad thing to consider but the OP is going about this all wrong.
Why consider life expectancy at birth?  You are not 0 years old!
Variations in ife expectancy at birth are mostly connected with infant mortality risk... once you're considering FIRE that is no longer an issue.
Better to look at life expectancy at, say, age 50 (or whatever age you are)...
You could also segment this further by looking at wealth-based life expectancy.  If you're looking at expat FIRE in Albania you would want to think about your cohort's risks not the population in general

A millionaire in the US has a greater life expectancy than someone in poverty (thanks to better nutrition, available medical care, etc.) but that gap is probably overshadowed by the differences in life expectancy between say a wealthy person in Albania vs. a destitute person there. 

Libertea

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2023, 07:30:38 PM »
There are plenty of life expectancy calculators that tailor the results to your particular situation. That should be better than using some overall nationwide statistic.  Most importantly they consider the age you have already attained.  My chance of suffering infant mortality is zero, but the nationwide stats have that baked in. 

For planning purposes I always assume I will live to 100 because it's a big round number that's easy to work with.
Ha.  I do the same thing.

wageslave23

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2023, 04:03:28 PM »
...
Trends across massive populations are a bit questionable to apply to your own life.

For example, it's pretty easy to find far more useful datapoints than "do you live in the USA" - ie this has far more useful visualizations of life expectancy than broad sweeping statements.

Which is why I also sort of agree with @nereo that this is just another way to say "USA sucks."
I agree "Local Life Expectancies by Income" provides some insight.  The poorest 5% in each major city determine the life expectancy, as the upper half of the graph overlap neatly.

But that data stops at 2014, so it's almost a decade out of date.  For example, it claims Nevada has the lowest life expectancy (maybe then, but not now).  If you want a visualization that is less out of date, I prefer the CDC's state by state data.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/life_expectancy/life_expectancy.htm


The USA also has particularly poor wealth/income inequality compared to the countries you are listing. But if the USA also has high income inequality, it's not surprising at all to me that the USA also would have lower life expectancies  (the link above shows pretty conclusively there is a strong relationship between income and life expectancy).
The claim in your first sentence is false.  The Gini coefficients for the USA (#5) and UK (#9) are very similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#Gini_coefficient,_before_taxes_and_transfers

The USA has higher median income than the UK, but much lower life expectancy.  So your extrapolation from US data doesn't seem to hold when making international comparisons.


Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

I find this a bit silly and it leads me to also feel, as @nereo does, that this is just a "hate on USA" approach.
Universal health care is relevant to life expectancy.  If all you can do is dismiss that as "silly" and talk about how you "feel", there isn't much room for discussion.

Whether a country has universal healthcare or not is only relevant to those who don't have healthcare insurance.  As others have said, the US is too diverse to compare medians or averages.  Especially because the US doesn’t have universal healthcare. In fact, if you do have health insurance in the US then you are probably better off than someone from a country with a slightly longer life expectancy because the US has people without health insurance dragging the numbers down. You need to compare apples to apples, ie educated, wealthy people who have access to health insurance to people in other countries who are educated, wealthy and have access to health insurance or other healthcare access. Unless you don't have money or health insurance then it would definitely behoove you to look at other countries.  I don't have any numbers but as I said in another thread, I can't imagine the US not being one of the top healthcare providers *IF* you have money and good health insurance.  We are usually the first to develop new treatments, have the world leading specialists, etc. A lot of people don't have access to these things, but if you do then you're in a pretty good spot. Living in the south side of Chicago with no money or health insurance in a food desert with a very real chance of being shot is not going to be very good for your life expectancy.  Living near one of the world leading research hospitals with plenty of money, access to healthcare and non existent physical violence is going to be great for longevity.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2023, 04:11:05 PM by wageslave23 »

Morning Glory

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2023, 04:15:39 PM »
...
Trends across massive populations are a bit questionable to apply to your own life.

For example, it's pretty easy to find far more useful datapoints than "do you live in the USA" - ie this has far more useful visualizations of life expectancy than broad sweeping statements.

Which is why I also sort of agree with @nereo that this is just another way to say "USA sucks."
I agree "Local Life Expectancies by Income" provides some insight.  The poorest 5% in each major city determine the life expectancy, as the upper half of the graph overlap neatly.

But that data stops at 2014, so it's almost a decade out of date.  For example, it claims Nevada has the lowest life expectancy (maybe then, but not now).  If you want a visualization that is less out of date, I prefer the CDC's state by state data.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/life_expectancy/life_expectancy.htm


The USA also has particularly poor wealth/income inequality compared to the countries you are listing. But if the USA also has high income inequality, it's not surprising at all to me that the USA also would have lower life expectancies  (the link above shows pretty conclusively there is a strong relationship between income and life expectancy).
The claim in your first sentence is false.  The Gini coefficients for the USA (#5) and UK (#9) are very similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#Gini_coefficient,_before_taxes_and_transfers

The USA has higher median income than the UK, but much lower life expectancy.  So your extrapolation from US data doesn't seem to hold when making international comparisons.


Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

I find this a bit silly and it leads me to also feel, as @nereo does, that this is just a "hate on USA" approach.
Universal health care is relevant to life expectancy.  If all you can do is dismiss that as "silly" and talk about how you "feel", there isn't much room for discussion.

Whether a country has universal healthcare or not is only relevant to those who don't have healthcare insurance.  As others have said, the US is too diverse to compare medians or averages.  Especially because the US doesn’t have universal healthcare. In fact, if you do have health insurance in the US then you are probably better off than someone from a country with a slightly longer life expectancy because the US has people without health insurance dragging the numbers down. You need to compare apples to apples, ie educated, wealthy people who have access to health insurance to people in other countries who are educated, wealthy and have access to health insurance or other healthcare access. Unless you don't have money or health insurance then it would definitely behoove you to look at other countries.  I don't have any numbers but as I said in another thread, I can't imagine the US not being one of the top healthcare providers *IF* you have money and good health insurance.  We are usually the first to develop new treatments, have the world leading specialists, etc. A lot of people don't have access to these things, but if you do then you're in a pretty good spot. Living in the south side of Chicago with no money or health insurance in a food desert with a very real chance of being shot is not going to be very good for your life expectancy.  Living near one of the world leading research hospitals with plenty of money, access to healthcare and non existent physical violence is going to be great for longevity.

The research hospital doesn't always do you much good:

https://magazine.jhsph.edu/2021/johns-hopkins-heal-thyself-0#:~:text=Communities%20nearest%20to%20Johns%20Hopkins,between%2066.8%20and%2070.7%20years.

"Communities nearest to Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions’ East Baltimore campus have the lowest life expectancy in the city. In Greenmount East, Clinton Berea, and Madison East, it ranges from 62.8 to 66.7 years. Residents of Perkins Middle East and Patterson Park can expect to live between 66.8 and 70.7 years."

wageslave23

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2023, 04:41:14 PM »
...
Trends across massive populations are a bit questionable to apply to your own life.

For example, it's pretty easy to find far more useful datapoints than "do you live in the USA" - ie this has far more useful visualizations of life expectancy than broad sweeping statements.

Which is why I also sort of agree with @nereo that this is just another way to say "USA sucks."
I agree "Local Life Expectancies by Income" provides some insight.  The poorest 5% in each major city determine the life expectancy, as the upper half of the graph overlap neatly.

But that data stops at 2014, so it's almost a decade out of date.  For example, it claims Nevada has the lowest life expectancy (maybe then, but not now).  If you want a visualization that is less out of date, I prefer the CDC's state by state data.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/life_expectancy/life_expectancy.htm


The USA also has particularly poor wealth/income inequality compared to the countries you are listing. But if the USA also has high income inequality, it's not surprising at all to me that the USA also would have lower life expectancies  (the link above shows pretty conclusively there is a strong relationship between income and life expectancy).
The claim in your first sentence is false.  The Gini coefficients for the USA (#5) and UK (#9) are very similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#Gini_coefficient,_before_taxes_and_transfers

The USA has higher median income than the UK, but much lower life expectancy.  So your extrapolation from US data doesn't seem to hold when making international comparisons.


Life expectancy correlates more closely with wealth than country of residence.

In the UK male healthy life expectancy varied between 53.7 in Blackpool (poor area) and 71.4 years in Richmond on Thames (wealthy area). (2017-19)

Of course there are lots of confounding factors.

I'm pretty sure that moving to a country with a high statistical life expectancy won't change your life expectancy one iota.
Maybe that comparison holds in general, but not for the U.S.  The U.S. has the highest median income in the world - and among high GDP countries, it has the lowest life expectancy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

"The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while it far outspends its peers on healthcare ...
The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages ..."
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries

Most high GDP countries like the UK have universal health care, so you might assume the U.S. has it.  But the U.S. is the only high GDP country without universal health care.

I assume "The disparity ... persists at older ages" means it is an ongoing problem.  When someone moves away from an ongoing problem, that can have an impact.

I find this a bit silly and it leads me to also feel, as @nereo does, that this is just a "hate on USA" approach.
Universal health care is relevant to life expectancy.  If all you can do is dismiss that as "silly" and talk about how you "feel", there isn't much room for discussion.

Whether a country has universal healthcare or not is only relevant to those who don't have healthcare insurance.  As others have said, the US is too diverse to compare medians or averages.  Especially because the US doesn’t have universal healthcare. In fact, if you do have health insurance in the US then you are probably better off than someone from a country with a slightly longer life expectancy because the US has people without health insurance dragging the numbers down. You need to compare apples to apples, ie educated, wealthy people who have access to health insurance to people in other countries who are educated, wealthy and have access to health insurance or other healthcare access. Unless you don't have money or health insurance then it would definitely behoove you to look at other countries.  I don't have any numbers but as I said in another thread, I can't imagine the US not being one of the top healthcare providers *IF* you have money and good health insurance.  We are usually the first to develop new treatments, have the world leading specialists, etc. A lot of people don't have access to these things, but if you do then you're in a pretty good spot. Living in the south side of Chicago with no money or health insurance in a food desert with a very real chance of being shot is not going to be very good for your life expectancy.  Living near one of the world leading research hospitals with plenty of money, access to healthcare and non existent physical violence is going to be great for longevity.

The research hospital doesn't always do you much good:

https://magazine.jhsph.edu/2021/johns-hopkins-heal-thyself-0#:~:text=Communities%20nearest%20to%20Johns%20Hopkins,between%2066.8%20and%2070.7%20years.

"Communities nearest to Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions’ East Baltimore campus have the lowest life expectancy in the city. In Greenmount East, Clinton Berea, and Madison East, it ranges from 62.8 to 66.7 years. Residents of Perkins Middle East and Patterson Park can expect to live between 66.8 and 70.7 years."

Research hospital was the wrong choice of words. Any highly regarded healthcare system will do. Especially if it's within transportation distance to specialists if need be. The area around university of Chicago hospital is horrible but it has nothing to do with the hospital.  Think "where do rich, educated people live?" and you'll do great.

dividendman

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2023, 08:42:37 PM »
People have already stated that life expectancy at birth isn't useful at all in retirement planning, and I agree.

I do think you can get some fancier life expectancy charts based on your current age, health, wealth, location, etc. I'm sure insurance companies have those around and they're probably pretty accurate and can be used as the "death date" in retirement planning.

nereo

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Re: Consider life expectancy in retirement
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2023, 06:52:51 AM »

The research hospital doesn't always do you much good:

https://magazine.jhsph.edu/2021/johns-hopkins-heal-thyself-0#:~:text=Communities%20nearest%20to%20Johns%20Hopkins,between%2066.8%20and%2070.7%20years.

"Communities nearest to Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions’ East Baltimore campus have the lowest life expectancy in the city. In Greenmount East, Clinton Berea, and Madison East, it ranges from 62.8 to 66.7 years. Residents of Perkins Middle East and Patterson Park can expect to live between 66.8 and 70.7 years."

In the US, it's not proximity ("physical access") to a medical center that matters, it's whether you have financial access (e.g. insurance at that location).  It's a completely different conversation than what we have in, say, rural Canada where the biggest determinant is physical access, because citizens have universal coverage.   

Johns Hopkins in particular is an excellent example - it's in a very impoverished urban area.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!