Author Topic: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?  (Read 7201 times)

LurkingMustache

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Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« on: June 17, 2024, 03:14:08 PM »
Mid 30s professional here, I "retired" sooner than I wanted to, due to being unwilling to continue working a high-pressure VP role that I was in.

I feel a bit of stress at retiring at a borderline FIRE #. I have $1.3M in savings, $1.5M if you include home equity. 160K in cash invested in a 5.3% MM, $120K in iBonds collected over the years, $600k in a Traditional IRA, $200K in a Roth IRA, $200K in a taxable brokerage. My home is largely subsidized through house hacking - I have a $900 mortgage with a $1,100 rental income. No debt. No kids. My wife is continuing to work in a 6 figure job and is now carrying us from an income/healthcare perspective.

Honestly, I just feel awful. I feel like I need to go find another job. Because I left my last role rather abruptly, I feel like I don't have a network. I'm spending a lot of my day sitting around and stressing about the future. And yet when I look at the job market and available jobs, reading job descriptions is just miserable. So I am hesitant to dip my toe back in.

I don't want to spend any money - the psychology of having no job income makes me want to save every penny. I've always been pretty frugal so since I left work my monthly spending has been under $2k a month.

Part of me is telling myself I'm going to "lose out" on my best earning years. Another part of me realizes I had massive self-worth coming from work, even though I hated it. I feel rather aimless and the "free" time doesn't really feel free.  Another part is also worried about my inability to move states or change out of my cheap starter home and start a family.

Have others went through this? Any advice on where to start? It's ironic I have been working hard since I was 14 years old and now that there's a moment where I am not working I feel lost and vulnerable.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2024, 03:17:20 PM by LurkingMustache »

curious_george

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2024, 03:19:37 PM »
Why did you want to retire early originally?

What did you want to spend the free time on?

What feelings were driving the decision to pursue early retirement?

MDM

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2024, 03:53:20 PM »
You listed what you (singular) have for account balances.  What do you (plural) have?

Ron Scott

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2024, 03:56:27 PM »
FWIW, to actually RETIRE in your mid-30s (!) because you don’t like your current job—as opposed to what many FIREd types mean by the word “retired”, which is to give up a high-paying and commensurately high-stress corporate job and earn money by some less challenging endeavor, seems to me like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If you’re not done making your life contributions and building wealth through hard work and are just sick of a bad working environment, change jobs instead.

I absolutely HATE the fact that corporate America still has SO MANY poor managers/execs and poorly designed jobs since the social tech for fixing both of these problems has been around for decades, but here we are. It sucks.

But some places offer rewarding work without too much bullshit. Find one.

ixtap

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2024, 04:27:41 PM »
Since this doesn't actually seem to be a financial issue

-Try volunteering. Look for a project you believe in and offer to help.

- Seek therapy. A good therapist can help you identify the core issues and address them.


I disagree that most FIRE in their 30s to find income differently. That is true of the ones who make a social media career out of being retired, but many have something to do, even if it does not bring an income. An engaging hobby, full commitment to a volunteer position. Many folks retiring in their 60s go through the same thing. If what you find happens to being an income, fine. But if not, and you are actually FI, then it doesn't matter if you have an income or not, but you need either purpose or contentment.

chasingthegoodlife

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2024, 04:36:17 PM »
Would it be helpful psychologically to think of this as a ‘mini break’ or sabbatical?

Rather than thinking of yourself as ‘retired’, you could see this as a higher achiever needing a ling break to recover from burn out or work on some non-paid goals?

Similarly, if you knew you would be back at work full time in two years, what would you like to be doing now?

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2024, 04:57:28 PM »
------Who are you?------

In America especially, we often introduce ourselves to new people and then ask "what do you do?"  Since going FIRE, I've started asking people "who are you?".  Most of the time they answer by listing their occupation.  I didn't ask what they did for money, that shit is boring to me now.  WHO. ARE. YOU?  What makes you tick?  What are your values?  What do you do for fun?  What aspirations do you have?  Smells to me that the real problem is don't know who the hell you are without your career.  Not having a job leaves you super disoriented and unable to draft a plan for your own future.

It's made me come to a full understanding that What you do - DOES NOT EQUAL - Who you are.  Starting around Kindergarten or sometimes sooner people start asking "what do you want to be when you grow up?"  Cart is before the horse.  They should start with questions like what are your values, what matters to you, what do you hope to accomplish and help children "know themselves".  Else, its a sure bet their career choice ends up being a poor fit for their personality.  If you had been in the 'right career for you' an almost infinite amount of stress and corporate bullshit would have been not such a big deal.  Plenty of people have stressful jobs that completely energize them, such as firefighter, policeman, Navy SEAL, or high level emergency Trauma Center Doctor.  We think we want accomplishment(s).  What we really want is to be "happy" and conforming to what society thinks we should view as success is a mechanism to get that.  Focus on making yourself happy. 

Recommend getting your Google-Fu on and looking up one or more core values discovery exercises.  Figure out who you are.  Do something that conforms to your innermost needs whether it is for pay or not.  Sounds like money is not really a major problem.  If you make half (or less) of what you made before, meh, who cares?  Hopefully, not you.  "Don't worry.  Be Happy" -- Bobby McFarin.

reeshau

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2024, 06:14:37 PM »
Do you and your wife keep separate finances?  If she is making > 6 figures, you should be more than OK.

How is your work life balance as a couple?  Have you engaged more household chores (cooking, cleaning, errands) since you left?  Do you like it?

It is very difficult to only retire " away" from something, and not also "to" something.  You did what you had to so, but if you think you *have to* retire, then your thinking is incomplete.  Take some time to think deeply about what you want--besides money--and plot a course to work toward that.  Maybe that is different work, maybe it is a solo endeavor or entrepreneurial adventure.  Maybe it's a nonprofit, whether you volunteer or lead it.

I left a bit earlier than planned, but not by much.  I can attest to the satisfaction that volunteering can bring.  We are recently back from the org's national convention, which I attended the first time, and also instructed a class.  It was so good, I had to take a week off to recover!  I can't wait for the next one!

I don't regret my corporate time.  I learned a lot, and met a lot of people I still consider friends.  But after a time, I had seen that show before.  It is very refreshing to have a different sort of environment to puzzle over, warts and all.

Good luck!

P.S.  Remember, your worst case (going back to work at a similar job) is most people's best or only case.

Missy B

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2024, 10:01:16 PM »
Hi LurkingMustache.
 
Even if cashflow isn't presently a problem, you're not set up for your wife to not work also... and of course if you want children she needs that option.
I totally get why you're having anxiety about not working.
And while your wife is probably also supportive, and knows you need some time to heal from the burnout, I would guess she also wants to know that you are healing, and not getting stuck into some funky emotional cul-de-sac. That's what we worry about as women in this situation. That our men will spiral, and we can't pull them out.

If you spent a long time not being integrous in service of a job (and by not integrous I don't mean dishonest but rather not being fully and truthfully self) your recovery might be served by and shortened with professional help. Or you might just need to do a project that has a tangible result that makes a difference so you can have a fresh, present experience of that feeling. Cause that's a pretty important compass, that feeling and knowing of being well-used.

Wish you well. Hope you report back.

Metalcat

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2024, 04:02:54 AM »
Burnout is no joke, take the healing seriously.

Stop focusing on the rest of your life and focus instead on healing. A healed future self is much more equipped to tackle the complex question of what you want to do with your life moving forward than the anxious, burnt out present version of yourself.

You have more than enough wealth and resources right now to focus on healing and thriving. Do that.

FTR, I speak from experience.

I had to leave an elite career in my 30s, my spouse continued in their 6 figure career. I suffered pretty extreme burnout, and I spent two years recovering and figuring who I was outside of that career identity and working on my health and 4 years later I just started working in a new, lucrative, highly rewarding career that's a better fit for my long term well being.

I felt the same pressure to get back to work and tried to do that right away and it blew up in my face. Only then did I finally take the healing part seriously.

You can try to bypass it, but your mind and body will fuck with you if you do.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 04:10:49 AM by Metalcat »

LurkingMustache

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2024, 11:30:43 AM »
Burnout is no joke, take the healing seriously.

Stop focusing on the rest of your life and focus instead on healing. A healed future self is much more equipped to tackle the complex question of what you want to do with your life moving forward than the anxious, burnt out present version of yourself.

You have more than enough wealth and resources right now to focus on healing and thriving. Do that.

FTR, I speak from experience.

I had to leave an elite career in my 30s, my spouse continued in their 6 figure career. I suffered pretty extreme burnout, and I spent two years recovering and figuring who I was outside of that career identity and working on my health and 4 years later I just started working in a new, lucrative, highly rewarding career that's a better fit for my long term well being.

I felt the same pressure to get back to work and tried to do that right away and it blew up in my face. Only then did I finally take the healing part seriously.

You can try to bypass it, but your mind and body will fuck with you if you do.

I really appreciate each response, whether it was asking questions to have me self-reflect, work on core values, identifying more with who I am over what I do, and spouse / time considerations.

This message on healing is helpful to re-frame my thoughts and I have a tendency of trying to completely ignore my feelings - in this case incredible levels of burnout with the belief that I can grit through into something else. I resonate with your experience. Healing as a mission has a lot of salience with me and may provide the right context to devote some time to, instead of just trying to fill the gap with more work.

Again, appreciate the time spent on providing feedback for this random internet stranger.


blueberrybushes

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2024, 01:26:53 PM »
Lurking,

I pulled the plug at 43 due to burn-out (3 yrs of 12 hr days including holidays) - this was 1996.  I experienced the same feeling - a lack of self worth because I was not getting a paycheck.  I was also bothered by no one calling to ask advice, do consulting work, etc..

I had a volunteer project that kept me engaged for 9 months.  Unlike Metalcat, I looked for anything that looked interesting as long as it paid something.  The first such position was a delivery driver for Meals on Wheels for $5/hr plus mileage.  That was the first of many short term, part time jobs that kept me engaged.  Eventually, I found a couple of things I very much enjoyed, gave me complete autonomy, and people appreciated what I did.  Although the positions were not lucrative, they paid the bills.  In 2020, I retired from compensated employment with no emotional regrets.

Recovering from my burn-outs required soul searching.  Usually, the reason was a disconnect between what I found rewarding and what the job provided/required as well as how much control I had.  My sweet spots turned out to be coaching high school sports, driving a motorcoach bus, and working with senior citizens.  These were a far cry from being a Plant Manager for a fortune 500 company.  The lesson - don't be afraid to try something just for the money because you might stumble onto something like Metalcat and I did.

Good luck in your path.

Car Jack

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2024, 06:48:14 PM »
You should look into a "downshift" job.  I know plenty of people who have done this.  One started as a chip designer, worked up to engineering manager to facility director.  He had enough of the politics and BS being a director and moved from that job back to that of a chip designer.  I never saw him so happy after he did this.

You can do whatever you want or try different things.  That was my initial plan when I retired a year ago.  My thought was to do stuff I wanted to try.  Maybe pizza delivery.  Maybe work at Starbucks.  Maybe in to Home Depot or the hardware store or in an Amazon warehouse.  I retired a year ago and lost all intent of ever working, doing anything, but I'm double your age, so have 40 years of working behind me.  You can also do part time somewhere.  I would not recommend contracting as everyone I know who's done that works 60+ hours or more and many have gone back into the regular workforce, tired of non-paying customers.

Idlewild

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2024, 10:50:45 AM »
Fascinating discussion. I'm dealing with the aftermath of burnout myself. Posting to follow.

Best of luck to you, Lurking.

I really appreciate the wisdom shared here.

Skyhigh

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2024, 02:14:27 PM »

I would get a part time job at Costco. Everyone gets the minimum of 24 hours a week and qualifies for benefits. Make new friends, earn some money, and burn off anxiety by filling boxes.

Metalcat

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2024, 05:20:40 PM »
Fascinating discussion. I'm dealing with the aftermath of burnout myself. Posting to follow.

Best of luck to you, Lurking.

I really appreciate the wisdom shared here.

We have had some EXCELLENT threads in the past on burnout if you do a search.

couponvan

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2024, 06:01:36 PM »
I’ve taken what I called smoke breaks along the way to FIRE. Most recently 2019-2023 after a cancer diagnosis. I wanted a YOLO year 3/19-3/20….boy did I get that. Mardi Gras cruise in 3/20 last boat in before lockdown was the planned end of my YOLO year. Take the time to heal, but you might get bored. I’m back at work PT while my kids are in college. I’d rather work 20 hours per week so they have zero debt upon graduating. It’s hard to be retired early with no children as an excuse for SAHP.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2024, 08:09:03 PM »
Tons of great advice here!

Since no one else said it… how’s your health? Mid-30s is a great time to fix any bad habits and begin a new life of fitness. I don’t drink but I joke that exercise is my drinking. My thoughts get the better of me but if I get some hard exercise in (can be a jog, lifting, class, yoga, bike, etc) my thoughts get smoked out of my brain and it just keeps the ennui at bay. You can also meet a whole new class of people who only work to pay for the different fitness events or goals they have. Same applies for any creative pursuit that rarely pays for itself.

You achieved a very high bar in your career at a young age. FIRE and/or a sabbatical requires you to throw out everything you learned and believed in order to get there and save up so much dang money. Embrace the challenge!

Idlewild

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2024, 01:50:08 AM »
Fascinating discussion. I'm dealing with the aftermath of burnout myself. Posting to follow.

Best of luck to you, Lurking.

I really appreciate the wisdom shared here.

We have had some EXCELLENT threads in the past on burnout if you do a search.

Thank you, Metalcat! I have been reading through the archives to find the posts addressing decompression and burnout. I love all your insights on the subject that come up in thread after thread!

Thank you for sharing your expertise on mental health and the good life.

Reddleman

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2024, 08:20:50 PM »
You should look into a "downshift" job.  I know plenty of people who have done this.  One started as a chip designer, worked up to engineering manager to facility director.  He had enough of the politics and BS being a director and moved from that job back to that of a chip designer.  I never saw him so happy after he did this.

You can do whatever you want or try different things.  That was my initial plan when I retired a year ago.  My thought was to do stuff I wanted to try.  Maybe pizza delivery.  Maybe work at Starbucks.  Maybe in to Home Depot or the hardware store or in an Amazon warehouse.  I retired a year ago and lost all intent of ever working, doing anything, but I'm double your age, so have 40 years of working behind me.  You can also do part time somewhere.  I would not recommend contracting as everyone I know who's done that works 60+ hours or more and many have gone back into the regular workforce, tired of non-paying customers.

As others have said, burnout is no joke. I spent over 20 years in public education before I ducked out.  It's one of those careers that is not only a job, but also an identity and not easy to replace.

I actually started working part time at a local orchard (kinda quaint, but mostly hard labor) on my transition out and have stayed on for a few years now.  It's much less of a time commitment, much lower stress, plenty of time outdoors, and a great social outlet.  That and therapy (highly recommended) were the keys to a good transition. I make substantially less (like less than 1/5) what I made before, but it's enough to cover my personal expenses while my wife continues to work somewhere earning a real wage and still finding some meaning in it.   

I'd definitely suggest a part-time gig.  In much of the less-formal economy (farming, family business, small retail, light construction/renovation) employers don't really care why you're taking the job as long as you're reliable and a decent worker. And many of them will be very happy to have you. 

Of course, this might lead to other "opportunities" in the future as well.  If I was in my 30s and a similar financial position, I think I would have probably been working on a degree in orchard science by now, but it seems less likely with every passing season.  That's okay with me too.

Working (or volunteering) in an unrelated field for a small fraction of your previous salary would probably seem like a huge step back to much of the (American consumer) world, but that doesn't matter.  If it makes you or others feel better, you can always just play the eccentric card and with all honesty just say "I just wanted to try something different for a while".  At this point getting out of your head and into the world is much more important thing. 

So therapy to help deal with your own internal uncertainty and some occupation outside of the house with other people to engage with the world and develop a new external orientation.  And remember it takes time, way more than you would think.

Metalcat

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2024, 03:45:39 AM »
For some people with burnout, a part time job is a great idea, for others it's a terrible idea.

This is best worked out with a therapist.

Dicey

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2024, 01:25:24 AM »
I would get a part time job at Costco. Everyone gets the minimum of 24 hours a week and qualifies for benefits. Make new friends, earn some money, and burn off anxiety by filling boxes.
My BFF's husband was a lower-rung but highly respected executive with Costco. He retired a little early. His last bonus check was $400k. It wasn't even his only annual bonus. Were he a Mustachian, he'd be well beyond most of the "...and Beyond" cohort.

My brother has worked in mostly non-executive management positions for Costco for over 30 years and is one of many Costco millionaires, despite an expensive mid-career divorce.

Almost everything you wrote about Costco is wrong. But hey, you don't really know much about Costco, and you have an extensive track record of personal dissatisfaction. I'd like to think you were making a joke, but levity is not your MO.

startingout

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Re: Really struggling mentally post-FIRE. Any advice?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2024, 08:47:59 AM »
Have you thought about getting a flexible coast-FIRE job? I haven't FIREd yet, but I've looked into being a substitute teacher at the local elementary school. I'd walk to work, get to choose which days I want to work, and get paid above minimum wage. I know teaching can be stressful, but substitutes don't have to deal with parents or the administration much.