Credit card denials post-FIRE

[MrGreen]

This is probably a long shot but what the heck...

We haven't opened a new credit card in years and we currently charge everything to a Chase Freedom Unlimited card. Not the most efficient use of our money since we don't spend much on hotels or airline tickets. I recently applied for a Fidelity credit card that pays 2% cash back and was denied. Our debt load is too high for our income.

We own three houses, two of which are rentals, though I suspect the mortgage on our primary residence alone might be enough to trip the algorithms credit card companies use. It's not like a mortgage application where rental income is reported and offsets the debt. I'm not sure what kind of income verification they do for self-employed people, last year's taxes maybe? I claimed an income of 60k, which basically matches our tax return last year.

Anyone run into this problem and have a way around it? I think that with three mortgages I'll have to make our income so high that there's no way we'd be able to pass any kind of verification documentation, if they even ask for that at times.

[Morning Glory]

I churn a few cards per year and have never been denied.  I just put "retired" and the income from last year's taxes. I don't have the Fidelity card though.

[reeshau]

I had to change cards 2 years after retiring, as the old card got bought by another outfit, and they ended no foreign transaction fees--a specific reason we got it.  I wondered how the process would go, but had no issues with declaring retired, and reporting my tax return's income.  (without documentation)  We own our house outright, though, so the only debt on a credit card report is monthly credit card usage.

[halfling]

They need your income to check against a regulatory requirement called Ability to Pay: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1026/51/

Every issuer is going to have a different way they calculate this, and different ways of verifying income (or not verifying it), but I think you should include all the rent you collect. I know of at least one bank that doesn't check incomes unless you report like $350k/year or higher. Hope that helps some!

[bacchi]

Yeah, we include our rent before deductions. We get $1500/month so that's $18k added to what we withdraw from accounts. We've never been asked to verify income but, if we were, we'd feel comfortable stating that the $18k is income and it helps pay for debt.

One of the Wells Fargo cards is also 2%.

[jim555]

I haven't found this to be a problem, they keep trying to give me new cards and I'm retired.  Credit score is 825-ish.

[GilesMM]

They have no way to verify your income - put what you like.  They just see credit score, balances and history.  Do not put "retired"; better to put "investor".  I have had no problem.

[jim555]

They have no way to verify your income - put what you like.  They just see credit score, balances and history.  Do not put "retired"; better to put "investor".  I have had no problem.

I put "retired". 

[nereo]

They have no way to verify your income - put what you like.  They just see credit score, balances and history.  Do not put "retired"; better to put "investor".  I have had no problem.

See Forum Rules (specifically “3: your post must not break any laws”)

Lying on a credit card application constitutes fraud (18 U.S. Code § 1014) and is punishable by both jail time and hefty fines. It’s also incorrect that they have “no way” to verify income; by signing the contract they gain legal authority to verify your income, including reviewing pay stubs or W2s. The credit underwriters have grown increasingly sophisticate in data collection and analysis.

While they might not flag (or even care) about modest inaccuracies on accounts in good standing, they do have legal standing. It’s pound foolish to give lenders leverage should the SHTF (e.g. bankruptcy, insurance claim, divorce).

[halfling]

One more tip - try to use an issuer's pre-qualification tool if they offer it so you can see if they're likely to approve you for one of their no foreign transaction fee cards. You don't get a hard inquiry on your credit report for pre-qualification denials usually. I think Capital One and Chase both offer this, at least.

[eyesonthehorizon]

After someone cited their own struggles previously I looked up Citi’s policy, so quoting myself as of February 2023 (terms subject to change):

Citi on their site defines it as:

Income from all sources including wages, commissions, bonuses, alimony, child support, Social Security or retirement benefits, unemployment compensation or disability, dividends and interest. Look at your last federal income tax return for your income sources.

I want to say they or another lender also used to have a line about routine income to which you have access, meaning for instance deposits to a joint account from the other party would also count even if you didn't intend to use them. …

I couldn’t find the citation for that latter bit, & therefore I’d probably omit such unless you find similar language in the terms, but they usually do have terms spelled out somewhere in the fine print, often buried in a PDF. Rental income to a business you own might be considered separate from income to yourself, though, so however you report income to yourself on your tax return is legally what I’d expect them to be looking for.

[MrGreen]

We do have a number of hard pulls on our credit in the last two years because of buying two houses. Though our credit scores are still over 800 so I wouldn't think that has much to do with it.

Taking advantage of pre-qualifications is a good idea. I might try the Citi Double Cash card. Maybe one of the big companies won't have the same restrictions. I'll look into what I can reasonably state as income. Our rental income alone is ~40k.

[Catbert]

I've been retired since before I started churning credit cards and saying "retired" has never been an issue.  As bacchi said be sure to report your gross rental income not the net.  After all they are already considering that you have a mortgage on it.

For many of us "determining" our income on credit card applications is complicated.  The easy part is SS and pensions which, of course, are included.  But Roth conversions which show on your tax returns but don't hit your checking account?  Report rental income gross, net or net on tax return after depreciation?  Roth withdrawals which hit your checking account but not your tax return?  What about capital gains?  I've picked a number that I could justify if I ever needed to.  Not the highest number I could stretch to but one that seems...reasonable.

   

[lhamo]

Fidelity seems to be quite picky.  I got rejected for that card because I did not unlock one of my credit report files.  Got approved for the Chase Sapphire Reserve while only stating 25k in income and "retired" as profession.  I did have all my files unlocked for that one.  We also got approved for the Citi Costco visa with minimal stated income and retired as professions.

[Silrossi46]

I got denied the city double cash card.   However I must say that I have gotten 4 cards in the last three months and through research have found that citi does not like that very much.  My credit score is 825 I am not retired and my income is 190k.  I do not have any debt including mortgage for what it’s worth. 

[halfling]

Fidelity seems to be quite picky.  I got rejected for that card because I did not unlock one of my credit report files.  Got approved for the Chase Sapphire Reserve while only stating 25k in income and "retired" as profession.  I did have all my files unlocked for that one.  We also got approved for the Citi Costco visa with minimal stated income and retired as professions.

Different issuers will contract with different Credit Reporting Agencies to pay for credit files, so it's possible that Fidelity was only checking the one you had locked. For example, if your Equifax report was locked and Fidelity only has a deal with Equifax to process their credit applications, they would have to deny you. Just a little industry info.

[eyesonthehorizon]

I appreciate people sharing direct experiences & industry intel.

I get the impression what they are mostly concerned about is cash flow relative to debt obligations. I remember jumping hoops to get my maxed-out 401k paycheck deductions dialed way back in time to apply for an apartment years ago, & fell over myself to explain the discrepancy to the woman in the office when she asked for the previous paystub too. To my relief she told me they only look at the gross, not the net.

[WayDownSouth]

I churn a few cards per year and have never been denied.  I just put "retired" and the income from last year's taxes. I don't have the Fidelity card though.

Did you put "investments" as your source of income or "other income" on the application?

[MrGreen]

I churn a few cards per year and have never been denied.  I just put "retired" and the income from last year's taxes. I don't have the Fidelity card though.

Did you put "investments" as your source of income or "other income" on the application?

Pretty sure I put investments.

[WayDownSouth]

I churn a few cards per year and have never been denied.  I just put "retired" and the income from last year's taxes. I don't have the Fidelity card though.

Did you put "investments" as your source of income or "other income" on the application?

Pretty sure I put investments.

Interesting. Just curious. I usually do the same, I think I've put retired a few times too. I have no numbers or data to support one or the other being better but I have a pretty good rate on my approvals. For what it's worth when it asks about rent and housing payment, I've historically ALWAYS put zero, even when I was very young. I think some companies do not like to see that though. All situations are different.

[Morning Glory]

I churn a few cards per year and have never been denied.  I just put "retired" and the income from last year's taxes. I don't have the Fidelity card though.

Did you put "investments" as your source of income or "other income" on the application?

Pretty sure I put investments.

Interesting. Just curious. I usually do the same, I think I've put retired a few times too. I have no numbers or data to support one or the other being better but I have a pretty good rate on my approvals. For what it's worth when it asks about rent and housing payment, I've historically ALWAYS put zero, even when I was very young. I think some companies do not like to see that though. All situations are different.

I put investments for the first few months after i fire'd but now that my spouse is working again I put family/household (I forget the exact wording). I have always put whatever my monthly mortgage or rent payment is but not the insurance or tax which I pay annually.   I typically do 2-3 cards for each of us per year but have done 4 including a larger one in the last 3 months because of a new hvac and some annual bills.  I don't do manufactured spend but will prepay utilities or buy a gift card to use later if a bonus deadline is getting close.

[bacchi]

I have always put whatever my monthly mortgage or rent payment is but not the insurance or tax which I pay annually. 

Same. Most people probably put their entire payment amount because of the escrow but the app asks about the mortgage.

[MrGreen]

The application asked for nothing beyond income. I assume a credit pull was done to get all our debt payments. The three mortgages alone total almost $5,000 a month. We pay our credit card off in full every month but the balance typically runs between $1,700-2,500. You'd think there would have been an ask for more info because if I'm saying an income of 50k, it doesn't cover our debts. Our credit record is flawless so the math clearly doesn't add up. I guess I'll just have to list a higher income that includes all the rent we receive on the next application. My mistake was probably in assuming that if I stated an income figure that was too far off from our tax return that that would be a red flag . Maybe it still will be but at least it will be a more realistic accounting of our rental income without the costs associated with rental houses that are calculated on tax returns.

[Jack0Life]

They have no way to verify your income - put what you like.  They just see credit score, balances and history.  Do not put "retired"; better to put "investor".  I have had no problem.

This.
LOL at people coming with all kind of solutions.
I don't make anywhere near what I used to make but I still put >$100k on every application and with a good credit score, I have never had a problem.
I mean I've been playing the credit game for 20+ years and I started off at putting down $40k and kept going up to $130K. No company have never questioned my salary. I've made $50k $60k $40k the last 3 yrs and I still put >$100k. Never an issue.
Seems to CC rarely ever verify your income so just put whatever you want reasonably.

[Catbert]

The application asked for nothing beyond income. I assume a credit pull was done to get all our debt payments. The three mortgages alone total almost $5,000 a month. We pay our credit card off in full every month but the balance typically runs between $1,700-2,500. You'd think there would have been an ask for more info because if I'm saying an income of 50k, it doesn't cover our debts. Our credit record is flawless so the math clearly doesn't add up. I guess I'll just have to list a higher income that includes all the rent we receive on the next application. My mistake was probably in assuming that if I stated an income figure that was too far off from our tax return that that would be a red flag . Maybe it still will be but at least it will be a more realistic accounting of our rental income without the costs associated with rental houses that are calculated on tax returns.

If your "debt" payments are more than the income you said you get, no surprise you were turned down.  Presumably you really have money coming from somewhere that nmore than covers the "debt".  Count that. 

[MrGreen]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

[WayDownSouth]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

If you apply for the same card, after she was just approved for that card (which you were denied for), by putting the same income as her it's going to be an even bigger red flag and they'll probably not approve you - especially considering you share the same address.. In addition, upping your income on a second try will just look like you're lying.

If I were you, I'd call them directly for reconsideration and explain what you explained here - that you didn't account for your rental income. If you do it right your chances of approval will go way up. It'd also be smart to offer (before they ask) to send/fax paperwork proving that income. With some calm and patience and a good rep, I don't see why they wouldn't approve you.

[srad]

Related to this, Im not retired but I have some rentals. A few years back we went to a mattress store to buy a mattress.  They were running some program like 3 years interest free so I was like yea, sign me up for that.  On the application, I only put my w2 income down.  I was denied.  That was embarrassing - Denied at a mattress store. 

Sales guy had me resubmit with rental income included, Approved.  So I learned from there, always include rentals income in credit applications.

[MrGreen]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

If you apply for the same card, after she was just approved for that card (which you were denied for), by putting the same income as her it's going to be an even bigger red flag and they'll probably not approve you - especially considering you share the same address.. In addition, upping your income on a second try will just look like you're lying.

If I were you, I'd call them directly for reconsideration and explain what you explained here - that you didn't account for your rental income. If you do it right your chances of approval will go way up. It'd also be smart to offer (before they ask) to send/fax paperwork proving that income. With some calm and patience and a good rep, I don't see why they wouldn't approve you.

I'm not concerned about getting approved for that specific card. There's plenty of fish in the sea with sign up bonuses to churn. At least I know what the appropriate action is now that she was approved.

[Jack0Life]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

[nereo]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

Because you aren’t factoring in your own legal liability. If nothing goes wrong you probably won’t ever have an issue. If you wind up in a bad situation (eg bankruptcy, delinquency, asset disputes) they will review your application and likely discover the fraud. Oops, now your situation got a lot worse.

[WayDownSouth]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

Good info... I've never (except once I think) had a card ask me for physical/faxed documentation regarding finances, but I've almost always been asked my annual income.

[GilesMM]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

Good info... I've never (except once I think) had a card ask me for physical/faxed documentation regarding finances, but I've almost always been asked my annual income.

In almost every case they are falling over themselves to extend you credit ESPECIALLY if you have limited ability to make on-time payments and run up lovely interest charges for them.

[WayDownSouth]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

Good info... I've never (except once I think) had a card ask me for physical/faxed documentation regarding finances, but I've almost always been asked my annual income.

In almost every case they are falling over themselves to extend you credit ESPECIALLY if you have limited ability to make on-time payments and run up lovely interest charges for them.

It sucks to be them because by the time the interest-free period runs out, most are used for selling tradelines. If not I'm reeling in points. Sometimes a mix & match but I'm not ever paying interest!

(actually I do pay interest once in a while when purposely letting card balances roll over but that's strategic and not something they're actually gaining on me in the long run)

[Morning Glory]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

Good info... I've never (except once I think) had a card ask me for physical/faxed documentation regarding finances, but I've almost always been asked my annual income.

In almost every case they are falling over themselves to extend you credit ESPECIALLY if you have limited ability to make on-time payments and run up lovely interest charges for them.

It sucks to be them because by the time the interest-free period runs out, most are used for selling tradelines. If not I'm reeling in points. Sometimes a mix & match but I'm not ever paying interest!

(actually I do pay interest once in a while when purposely letting card balances roll over but that's strategic and not something they're actually gaining on me in the long run)

What do you gain from letting the balances roll over? I thought it was a myth that it helps with your score or whatever.

[WayDownSouth]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

Good info... I've never (except once I think) had a card ask me for physical/faxed documentation regarding finances, but I've almost always been asked my annual income.

In almost every case they are falling over themselves to extend you credit ESPECIALLY if you have limited ability to make on-time payments and run up lovely interest charges for them.

It sucks to be them because by the time the interest-free period runs out, most are used for selling tradelines. If not I'm reeling in points. Sometimes a mix & match but I'm not ever paying interest!

(actually I do pay interest once in a while when purposely letting card balances roll over but that's strategic and not something they're actually gaining on me in the long run)

What do you gain from letting the balances roll over? I thought it was a myth that it helps with your score or whatever.

Well, I'm not 100% positive but basically we can all agree that there are algorithms used not only for credit scores but more importantly by each card issuer to determine your value, estimate fraud potential, estimate things like lifetime value or account performance, determine if/why/when they want to raise your limit or send you a new card offer, etc...

By letting the balance roll over and paying at least a little interest once and a while, you're showing them that you are actually paying them SOMETHING. Even if their algorithm figures in authorized users, your points earned, etc., and even if they see they are not truly profiting from you - at least you're giving them something. In my opinion it's worth that spend to potentially quicken things like credit limit raises, card offers, whatever.

I have no solid proof of that working, but they don't know what I'm actually making on tradelines and giving certain cards a couple hundred a year on interest is nothing compared to what I'm making from them. Some months I'll even have like a $8k balance and make a minimum payment for 2 or 3 months straight, then pay the 4th month in full via 2 or 3 payments of like $2 to $4k... It's just a theory but it makes ME feel like I show them that I wish I could have paid it all at once, but I wasn't able to. They make a little money, and maybe are a bit more lenient and friendly. MAYBE NOT! I dunno it's just something I do.

I'm sure others have their methods or theories on that. Maybe I don't need to pay them jack shit and I'd have the same outcome. Who knows.

[Morning Glory]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

Good info... I've never (except once I think) had a card ask me for physical/faxed documentation regarding finances, but I've almost always been asked my annual income.

In almost every case they are falling over themselves to extend you credit ESPECIALLY if you have limited ability to make on-time payments and run up lovely interest charges for them.

It sucks to be them because by the time the interest-free period runs out, most are used for selling tradelines. If not I'm reeling in points. Sometimes a mix & match but I'm not ever paying interest!

(actually I do pay interest once in a while when purposely letting card balances roll over but that's strategic and not something they're actually gaining on me in the long run)

What do you gain from letting the balances roll over? I thought it was a myth that it helps with your score or whatever.

Well, I'm not 100% positive but basically we can all agree that there are algorithms used not only for credit scores but more importantly by each card issuer to determine your value, estimate fraud potential, estimate things like lifetime value or account performance, determine if/why/when they want to raise your limit or send you a new card offer, etc...

By letting the balance roll over and paying at least a little interest once and a while, you're showing them that you are actually paying them SOMETHING. Even if their algorithm figures in authorized users, your points earned, etc., and even if they see they are not truly profiting from you - at least you're giving them something. In my opinion it's worth that spend to potentially quicken things like credit limit raises, card offers, whatever.

I have no solid proof of that working, but they don't know what I'm actually making on tradelines and giving certain cards a couple hundred a year on interest is nothing compared to what I'm making from them. Some months I'll even have like a $8k balance and make a minimum payment for 2 or 3 months straight, then pay the 4th month in full via 2 or 3 payments of like $2 to $4k... It's just a theory but it makes ME feel like I show them that I wish I could have paid it all at once, but I wasn't able to. They make a little money, and maybe are a bit more lenient and friendly. MAYBE NOT! I dunno it's just something I do.

I'm sure others have their methods or theories on that. Maybe I don't need to pay them jack shit and I'd have the same outcome. Who knows.

Sign-up bonuses are part of their marketing budget because they use number of new accounts to compare themselves with competitors.  Its in their interest to approve you whether you are profitable or not. Some of them have even resorted to opening fake accounts for this reason.

I have heard of getting favorable terms based on total assets held at an institution,  but not based on owing them money or paying them interest.

[WayDownSouth]

I just had my wife applied for the same card I was denied on. We have near identical credit scores. Put her income down as 107k, which includes all the rental income I consider a wash. She was approved no problem. I will try applying for a card soon with the same income figure and see how it goes.

This is what everyone should do.
Never had any CC ask me to verify income.
My wife haven't work in the last 2 years.
Still put her down for at least >$80k in every CC application and approved every time.
I don't know why anyone think CC will verify anything is beyond me.
Only once I had CC asked me to verify a business that was really just an Ebay account. Couldn't do that so the next time I put down my own name as a business and sole prorietorship and approved instantly.

Good info... I've never (except once I think) had a card ask me for physical/faxed documentation regarding finances, but I've almost always been asked my annual income.

In almost every case they are falling over themselves to extend you credit ESPECIALLY if you have limited ability to make on-time payments and run up lovely interest charges for them.

It sucks to be them because by the time the interest-free period runs out, most are used for selling tradelines. If not I'm reeling in points. Sometimes a mix & match but I'm not ever paying interest!

(actually I do pay interest once in a while when purposely letting card balances roll over but that's strategic and not something they're actually gaining on me in the long run)

What do you gain from letting the balances roll over? I thought it was a myth that it helps with your score or whatever.

Well, I'm not 100% positive but basically we can all agree that there are algorithms used not only for credit scores but more importantly by each card issuer to determine your value, estimate fraud potential, estimate things like lifetime value or account performance, determine if/why/when they want to raise your limit or send you a new card offer, etc...

By letting the balance roll over and paying at least a little interest once and a while, you're showing them that you are actually paying them SOMETHING. Even if their algorithm figures in authorized users, your points earned, etc., and even if they see they are not truly profiting from you - at least you're giving them something. In my opinion it's worth that spend to potentially quicken things like credit limit raises, card offers, whatever.

I have no solid proof of that working, but they don't know what I'm actually making on tradelines and giving certain cards a couple hundred a year on interest is nothing compared to what I'm making from them. Some months I'll even have like a $8k balance and make a minimum payment for 2 or 3 months straight, then pay the 4th month in full via 2 or 3 payments of like $2 to $4k... It's just a theory but it makes ME feel like I show them that I wish I could have paid it all at once, but I wasn't able to. They make a little money, and maybe are a bit more lenient and friendly. MAYBE NOT! I dunno it's just something I do.

I'm sure others have their methods or theories on that. Maybe I don't need to pay them jack shit and I'd have the same outcome. Who knows.

Sign-up bonuses are part of their marketing budget because they use number of new accounts to compare themselves with competitors.  Its in their interest to approve you whether you are profitable or not. Some of them have even resorted to opening fake accounts for this reason.

I have heard of getting favorable terms based on total assets held at an institution,  but not based on owing them money or paying them interest.

It's not anything I've read or heard anywhere, just something I do. I can't prove that it helps or not, but I feel like it might and it's just personal strategy. I did the same since my first credit cards so if anything it's just habit but way back then I wasn't selling slots and all that.

[Dicey]

It's not anything I've read or heard anywhere, just something I do. I can't prove that it helps or not, but I feel like it might and it's just personal strategy. I did the same since my first credit cards so if anything it's just habit but way back then I wasn't selling slots and all that.

So you write off the interest as a business expense?

[WayDownSouth]

It's not anything I've read or heard anywhere, just something I do. I can't prove that it helps or not, but I feel like it might and it's just personal strategy. I did the same since my first credit cards so if anything it's just habit but way back then I wasn't selling slots and all that.

So you write off the interest as a business expense?

No I do not write it off as a business expense.