Author Topic: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?  (Read 26187 times)

Nick_Miller

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2021, 02:45:57 PM »

Wait...the sausage king of Chicago has graced our humble forums? I need a minute to, you know, compose myself. ....

You may rise, and kiss the ring - LOL. Thank you for the ideas - this is a HUGE help.
But I suspect the best gift I might be able to giver her is to take our 2 DSs and give her a quiet house from time to time.

Yep! Anything you can do to facilitate her writing, whether it's taking the kids out of the house, or giving her 'permission' to shut an office door and enjoy an uninterrupted window of writing time, or helping her set up a writing area in the house, or even if it's just saying/doing things to confirm to her that you're good with her taking some time to write, any of that would probably be warmly received and hugely appreciated!

That being said, I wrote the Pepperwood Chronicles while spending time in sultry New Orleans with my super hot girlfriend, so everyone responds differently to various motivators.

asauer

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2021, 02:07:59 AM »
I was reading something last night that indicated that only 20% of fiction is read and purchased by men. I was just curious if the male writers on this thread are also big fiction readers? or if they just want to write?

I ask because my Dad mentioned wanting to write a book, but hasn't read anything other than the occasional Hemingway short story in more than a decade. So I thought that statement was pretty wild! And then I went through my husband's reading list for the year and it came right in at 20% fiction - so I found that intriguing.

I consider myself a decent reader, but I probably read between 70-100 books in a year, and weekly/daily longform and regular journalism. But my dad also considers himself a "big" reader and he might read 1-2 books a year. I am intrigued by what we consider to be "reader" and what that might have to do with a desire to write.
I don’t know the overall numbers but I know my followers are 50/50 in the mystery genre.

Metalcat

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2021, 07:20:09 AM »
There's nothing wrong with audiobooks, but they're hilariously inferior to regular books if there are charts or maps or formulas.

That's just apples and oranges--and horses for courses. The art technique books I have are physical and in full color for example, and I wouldn't consider an e-book good enough for that either. I don't think anyone is arguing that we should replace all books with audio versions.
I never said e-books were as good as paper books. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ My point is that regular, old-fashioned, original-formula OG :P books are the best format in terms of conveying various types of information. Every other format (e-book, or an audio-book, etc) is an adequate replacement but ultimately inferior when you consider all use cases. (Maps, formulas, charts, data visualization, etc.)

I've read plenty of e-books that had companion websites with far better resources than simple paper maps and data charts.

It's not the "e" format that has limitations, it's the e-reader that has limitations compared to a paper book. But a lot of software has far, far greater capacity to display information than simple paper.

I was in school for a very long time, and companion software and websites for textbooks became the gold standard for a reason.

In my last 4 years of school, I bought only one textbook, and in that case the digital website was INFINITELY superior for studying anatomy, but we weren't allowed devices in to the study space before our anatomy exams, so we all bought that one book.

Otherwise, despite being a discipline with tons of illustrations, models, graphs, etc, no one purchased physical books to study. They were profoundly inferior to the interactive versions available at the companion sites for the books.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 07:24:42 AM by Malcat »

Chris Pascale

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2021, 08:42:33 AM »
I'd like to know more. Don't leave us out of the loop when you get the ball rolling.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2022, 10:01:13 AM »
The thread has been quiet for a few months and I don't want to threadjack, but I had a writing-related question that I thought might be better placed here, as opposed to starting a new thread.

One of my writer friends and I have been talking about writing some books together. My gut reaction was like, "Awesome! This will be so fun!" But at the same time there are obviously tons of obstacles to consider.

1) She's a woman and I don't know if our spouses would be bothered by us working closely together, like perhaps spending time at each other's homes, etc. (not necessarily dragging the whole family along because...that sort of defeats the purpose). I would feel awkward even bringing up the issue but at the same time I would want my wife totally comfortable with the situation so I feel like maybe the topic should be mentioned? My friend and I are both totally dedicated to our spouses and families, but we're about the same age and vibe really well, so I don't know how you bring this up, or if you don't? I only put this first because I want my wife feeling secure. That is important to me.

2) The possibility of losing my friend as a friend. So many things could go wrong. We'd have to iron out a lot of details. And eventually the collaboration would end, as all things do (perhaps I'm a bit fatalistic about things like this, considering the end before it's even started). I would hate to lose her as a friend. We vibe really well, we have similar creative energies, and she's in a similar life situation (with kiddos, etc). I'm nervous that if one of us views ourselves as doing more of the work, or dragging the other along, etc., the friendship would be damaged.

3) Just collaborating in general. I can imagine how hard it is to get on the exact same page (pun so intended!) with another person to where you feel each is bringing something to the table that you can't bring yourself. Otherwise, why collaborate? What is one of us works faster than the other? What if one of us wants to take a story in a direction the other just can't get behind?


So why are we thinking about it? As I said, our creative energies are very similar, but we bring different things. Her prose is probably a bit stronger, and she's more accustomed to writing to a woman's market, but she keeps saying that she loves my plotting, my dialogue, and that my energy would balance out hers nicely. We have casually discussed a genre that we would both be comfortable writing in, although it would be a new genre for me. I would likely use a pen name for various reasons.

We are both pretty strong on the business end. I have higher lifetime net profits (about $45K thus far) but she is rapidly gaining on me. We critique each other's work frequently, and I think we'd be able to avoid getting an editor since we'd have two pairs of eyes on it.

Any thoughts? Anyone been in a similar situation?


Kris

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2022, 10:39:33 AM »
The thread has been quiet for a few months and I don't want to threadjack, but I had a writing-related question that I thought might be better placed here, as opposed to starting a new thread.

One of my writer friends and I have been talking about writing some books together. My gut reaction was like, "Awesome! This will be so fun!" But at the same time there are obviously tons of obstacles to consider.

1) She's a woman and I don't know if our spouses would be bothered by us working closely together, like perhaps spending time at each other's homes, etc. (not necessarily dragging the whole family along because...that sort of defeats the purpose). I would feel awkward even bringing up the issue but at the same time I would want my wife totally comfortable with the situation so I feel like maybe the topic should be mentioned? My friend and I are both totally dedicated to our spouses and families, but we're about the same age and vibe really well, so I don't know how you bring this up, or if you don't? I only put this first because I want my wife feeling secure. That is important to me.

2) The possibility of losing my friend as a friend. So many things could go wrong. We'd have to iron out a lot of details. And eventually the collaboration would end, as all things do (perhaps I'm a bit fatalistic about things like this, considering the end before it's even started). I would hate to lose her as a friend. We vibe really well, we have similar creative energies, and she's in a similar life situation (with kiddos, etc). I'm nervous that if one of us views ourselves as doing more of the work, or dragging the other along, etc., the friendship would be damaged.

3) Just collaborating in general. I can imagine how hard it is to get on the exact same page (pun so intended!) with another person to where you feel each is bringing something to the table that you can't bring yourself. Otherwise, why collaborate? What is one of us works faster than the other? What if one of us wants to take a story in a direction the other just can't get behind?


So why are we thinking about it? As I said, our creative energies are very similar, but we bring different things. Her prose is probably a bit stronger, and she's more accustomed to writing to a woman's market, but she keeps saying that she loves my plotting, my dialogue, and that my energy would balance out hers nicely. We have casually discussed a genre that we would both be comfortable writing in, although it would be a new genre for me. I would likely use a pen name for various reasons.

We are both pretty strong on the business end. I have higher lifetime net profits (about $45K thus far) but she is rapidly gaining on me. We critique each other's work frequently, and I think we'd be able to avoid getting an editor since we'd have two pairs of eyes on it.

Any thoughts? Anyone been in a similar situation?

I don't collaborate, because I have seen some horror stories. That said, I know quite a few people who do co-write and have done so for years.

1) I think the person to bring this up with is your wife. Not your friend. Bringing it up specifically with your friend serves no real purpose, unless it is to say, "My wife is totally on board with this. Is your husband comfortable with it?"

2) This is a definite possibility. Working with friends, as you say, has a lot of potential land mines. If I were you, I would take a step back, and think/journal about these questions: How reliable are both of you at meeting deadlines? What would each of your reactions be if one of you started sliding or deadlines, or even missing them? What would happen if you ended up having very different senses of how much of a priority these collaborative projects are? How possible/likely is it that at some point, one of you would start having criticisms of the other's quantity or quality of work? How well will you be able to iron out exactly who is responsible for what? Would it be worth it for you if the two of you had success for a few years, but that ultimately the collaboration broke down and ended the friendship?

3) As for how to go about it, two well-respected people in the author world have written books on co-writing, Joanna Penn and Craig Martelle.

www.amazon.com/Co-writing-book-Collaboration-Co-creation-Authors-ebook/dp/B018GF66JE

www.amazon.com/Collaborations-Whole-Greater-Successful-Author-ebook/dp/B07WS1H4C7

I would tend to take Joanna Penn's advice over Craig's (perhaps because I just like her more as a person) but they both offer solid, comprehensive advice.


Nick_Miller

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2022, 11:13:00 AM »
Thanks, Kris!

1) Yeah I guess I just feel awkward about bringing it up, like it makes me the weirdo/perv. Maybe neither my wife or my friend would even be concerned about this in a million years, and I'm the oddball who brings it up, making the other parties uncomfortable or suspicious or whatever. I mean, do you view my concern here as something pretty much any spouse should bring up? Maybe it's just me, but if my wife was considering working one-on-one with a guy friend, I'd feel better if she said, "Hey Nick, we are 100% friends, nothing to worry about, why don't you become friends with him too?" or something like that.

2) Very good points. Certainly things I'd want to discuss.

3) I like Joanna well enough, although she's a bit too chipper for my tastes. But I probably prefer her to Craig. I'm not a good match with military type of personalities. That being said, I would likely learn a lot from either of them. I can separate messages from the messengers. Thank you for the links.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 11:18:55 AM by Nick_Miller »

Kris

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2022, 11:26:45 AM »
Thanks, Kris!

1) Yeah I guess I just feel awkward about bringing it up, like it makes me the weirdo/perv. Maybe neither my wife or my friend would even be concerned about this in a million years, and I'm the oddball who brings it up, making the other parties uncomfortable or suspicious or whatever. I mean, do you view my concern here as something pretty much any spouse should bring up? Maybe it's just me, but if my wife was considering working one-on-one with a guy friend, I'd feel better if she said, "Hey Nick, we are 100% friends, nothing to worry about, why don't you become friends with him too?" or something like that.

2) Very good points. Certainly things I'd want to discuss.

3) I like Joanna well enough, although she's a bit too chipper for my tastes. But I probably prefer her to Craig. I'm not a good match with military type of personalities. That being said, I would likely learn a lot from either of them. I can separate messages from the messengers. Thank you for the links.

1) I think it's totally appropriate for a spouse to bring it up with another spouse. I 100% trust my DH, and/but if he was considering working one-on-one with a female friend, I think checking in with me/reassuring me would be awesome and wouldn't make it weirder at all. (In fact one of the people he used to work with closely is a super-hot chick about ten years younger than me, and he did in fact have this convo with me. I'm now good friends with her, too.) But saying it to the friend might be a little weird (setting it on the table visible between you, when it didn't need to be there, metaphorically speaking), which is why I suggested the convo with your wife and not her.

3) I'm guessing most of what Craig and Joanna say is very similar (I've heard them both talk about collaborations), though my bet is that Joanna goes into more depth. I agree with you about Craig -- his personality doesn't mesh with mine, plus I find him to be quite a martyr despite his whole "suck it up, no excuses" persona. Joanna is very chipper indeed, which normally might bug me in another person, but I just find her accent so endearing that I can't help but like her. And she knows her shit.

Watchmaker

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2022, 11:30:31 AM »
1) She's a woman and I don't know if our spouses would be bothered by us working closely together, like perhaps spending time at each other's homes, etc. (not necessarily dragging the whole family along because...that sort of defeats the purpose). I would feel awkward even bringing up the issue but at the same time I would want my wife totally comfortable with the situation so I feel like maybe the topic should be mentioned? My friend and I are both totally dedicated to our spouses and families, but we're about the same age and vibe really well, so I don't know how you bring this up, or if you don't? I only put this first because I want my wife feeling secure. That is important to me.

I personally wouldn't worry about this or bring it up. My SO is a musician-- she works mostly with men, and her primary collaborator over the last five years is a guy. She's never asked me (and I wouldn't expect her to) whether I'm okay with them spending time together. And my boss is a woman and we occasionally travel together--again, I wouldn't even think of asking SO about this. I mean, shouldn't roughly half the people you work with be of the opposite gender?

2) The possibility of losing my friend as a friend. So many things could go wrong. We'd have to iron out a lot of details. And eventually the collaboration would end, as all things do (perhaps I'm a bit fatalistic about things like this, considering the end before it's even started). I would hate to lose her as a friend. We vibe really well, we have similar creative energies, and she's in a similar life situation (with kiddos, etc). I'm nervous that if one of us views ourselves as doing more of the work, or dragging the other along, etc., the friendship would be damaged.

In your position, I'd try to set expectations early on that we would prioritize the existing friendship/working relationship over this new potential project. Create lots of opportunities for one member to bow out of the deal with no hard feelings, and agree that it's a one time thing unless you are both enthusiastically wanting to continue the partnership after you're done. Still, there would always be a risk. You'd have to decide if the potential upside is worth it.

ETA: I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was wrong to bring up with your spouse. I think it's fine to, just not necessary.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 11:45:49 AM by Watchmaker »

Kris

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2022, 11:38:39 AM »
1) She's a woman and I don't know if our spouses would be bothered by us working closely together, like perhaps spending time at each other's homes, etc. (not necessarily dragging the whole family along because...that sort of defeats the purpose). I would feel awkward even bringing up the issue but at the same time I would want my wife totally comfortable with the situation so I feel like maybe the topic should be mentioned? My friend and I are both totally dedicated to our spouses and families, but we're about the same age and vibe really well, so I don't know how you bring this up, or if you don't? I only put this first because I want my wife feeling secure. That is important to me.

I suppose I disagree a bit with Kris, because I personally wouldn't worry about this or bring it up. My SO is a musician-- she works mostly with men, and her primary collaborator over the last five years is a guy. She's never asked me (and I wouldn't expect her to) whether I'm okay with them spending time together. And my boss is a woman and we occasionally travel together--again, I wouldn't even think of asking SO about this. I mean, shouldn't roughly half the people you work with be of the opposite gender?

2) The possibility of losing my friend as a friend. So many things could go wrong. We'd have to iron out a lot of details. And eventually the collaboration would end, as all things do (perhaps I'm a bit fatalistic about things like this, considering the end before it's even started). I would hate to lose her as a friend. We vibe really well, we have similar creative energies, and she's in a similar life situation (with kiddos, etc). I'm nervous that if one of us views ourselves as doing more of the work, or dragging the other along, etc., the friendship would be damaged.

In your position, I'd try to set expectations early on that we would prioritize the existing friendship/working relationship over this new potential project. Create lots of opportunities for one member to bow out of the deal with no hard feelings, and agree that it's a one time thing unless you are both enthusiastically wanting to continue the partnership after you're done. Still, there would always be a risk. You'd have to decide if the potential upside is worth it.

I don't think you really disagree with me -- at least, not the way I read your comment. It depends on the couple, honestly. I personally wouldn't worry about it or bring it up myself if I were working one-on-one with a male colleague, because it wouldn't really occur to me. But as I said, my DH did bring this up to me for whatever reason about a colleague he had, and it was fine. Nick would have to decide whether it would be good to check in with his wife on this based on their relationship, and whether it would be better for him to do that, or whether it would just plant a seed in her mind that didn't need to be there.

Watchmaker

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #110 on: February 16, 2022, 11:46:51 AM »
I don't think you really disagree with me -- at least, not the way I read your comment. It depends on the couple, honestly. I personally wouldn't worry about it or bring it up myself if I were working one-on-one with a male colleague, because it wouldn't really occur to me. But as I said, my DH did bring this up to me for whatever reason about a colleague he had, and it was fine. Nick would have to decide whether it would be good to check in with his wife on this based on their relationship, and whether it would be better for him to do that, or whether it would just plant a seed in her mind that didn't need to be there.

I agree that we're not really in disagreement, I edited my post to try to make it more clear what I wanted to say.

Nords

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #111 on: February 16, 2022, 04:46:47 PM »
1) She's a woman and I don't know if our spouses would be bothered by us working closely together, like perhaps spending time at each other's homes, etc. (not necessarily dragging the whole family along because...that sort of defeats the purpose).
This one’s all on you.  You could check in with your spouse, but presumably she’s already seen you guys talking about writing.  Ideally she already understands this is a professional relationship, not a personal one.

If your spouse is like mine, she’ll be secretly relieved that I have all of these writing friends to nerd out with so that my spouse doesn’t have to do it with me as much.  Now that I think about it, I was the only guy involved in the book with my co-author.  Our publisher, two editors, graphic artist, and foreign-rights agent are all women. 

I thought this collaboration was going to be a discussion about using Google Docs.  Is there any reason for you guys to spend time physically together, let alone in each others’ homes?  You might get a lot more writing done individually if you weren’t commuting somewhere and hosting each other.  It also avoids the coordination issue if one of you is a morning writer and the other prefers writing at night.

2) The possibility of losing my friend as a friend. So many things could go wrong. We'd have to iron out a lot of details. And eventually the collaboration would end, as all things do (perhaps I'm a bit fatalistic about things like this, considering the end before it's even started). I would hate to lose her as a friend. We vibe really well, we have similar creative energies, and she's in a similar life situation (with kiddos, etc). I'm nervous that if one of us views ourselves as doing more of the work, or dragging the other along, etc., the friendship would be damaged.
You could ask your co-author if this book will wreck your friendship, and then share your respective feelings about it.  That’s more of a venting session than a problem-solving discussion.

You’re seeing the downsides of collaboration.  What about the upsides?  Why does it have to end?

You’re presumably going to collaborate on the audiobook edition, even if it’s just a foreword in your voices.  You’re both going to market the book, ideally for years.  What if it’s a hot seller, optioned for movies & TV serials, and the first of a series?

Look at the writing partnership between Lee Goldberg and Janet Evanovich.  They’ve collaborated on a half-dozen books but they also work with other authors and still publish their own.

3) Just collaborating in general. I can imagine how hard it is to get on the exact same page (pun so intended!) with another person to where you feel each is bringing something to the table that you can't bring yourself. Otherwise, why collaborate? What is one of us works faster than the other? What if one of us wants to take a story in a direction the other just can't get behind?
Any thoughts? Anyone been in a similar situation?
My (adult) daughter and I wrote a non-fiction personal finance book in 2018-2020.  It’s my second book and her first.  Because we dislike deadlines, we wrote the manuscript first and then sought an editor & publisher. 

I’ll share a few paragraphs on what we did and then add the lessons learned.

We started with a messy outline about the money tactics that we parents used with her, and then we wrote our perspectives from the parent & child sides.   (Carol’s part included her reactions as both a child and later as an adult & parent.)  We framed it as “stories around the kitchen table.”  Everything went great when we were writing the manuscript-- even though she had more to write about, I was struggling to keep up with her. 

Once we finished the manuscript and started developmental editing, I turned out to be a lot better at writing front matter & back matter (especially bibliographies and appendices).  She did more work on her parts of the manuscript than I did on mine, while I did the front & back parts on my own.

Our developmental editor had a very negative reaction to our format.  She wanted a unified voice and warned that we were giving up our authority (?!?) by sharing family stories instead of advising families on The Way To Do This.  Our research and our reader polls gave us the confidence to push back for our two-voice format.  The editor grudgingly went along and was probably even more... diligent... on the editing. 

Our biggest challenge was being too close to the stories.  We frequently told some of the other person’s story from our perspective instead of letting each of us tell all of our part from our perspective.  We were too close to the project to notice it until the editor pointed it out (with entire paragraphs dripping in redlines).  Once it was evident, we had no trouble carving apart the paragraphs and returning them to the right author. 

Most of it was minor edits, although we had to hack one entire chapter into tiny little pieces and rebuild it.  We talked out all of that in Google Docs comments and took turns working on it before we tossed it back to the editor.

I had the author/publishing experience (and maybe the credibility).  I set up the stories (what parents want), while she had the most interesting parts (what kids really think).  Because of this dynamic, I tried really hard to avoid going full “I’m an author” on her, and I generally followed her lead on the initiatives.  She felt more comfortable sharing because I avoided critiquing.  It’s a good thing I did, because Carol resonates much more strongly with parents of young kids than I do.

I never touched a single word she wrote.  (I let the editor do that.)  If she touched any of mine, I never noticed.

I turned out to react much better to editorial commentary.  (I was as hotheaded at her age as she is, but I’ve had 30 more years to mellow out.)  Carol and I would usually discuss what the editor had done, and then I’d handle the response. 

We wrote the publisher’s contract for all the money to go to Carol.  She’s in a lower income-tax bracket (so far) and I didn’t need the money.  It turned out to be much easier to handle the paperwork with one author instead of two.

Here’s some lessons and topics to discuss between co-authors (and maybe spouses):
- Do you guys want to pick a lead author, especially since you’re in a new genre?  Are you the experienced author trying something new with a junior partner, or are you helping to light the torch of a rising star?  Or are both of you pulling equally in harness together?
- Which one of you is going to be more popular with this book?  You with your experience, or her with her existing readers in her genre?  This discussion between you is more important than a decision.
- Traditional publisher, hybrid, or self-publishing?  You guys have done this before, so you could figure out that part now and think about who you’d like to hire.
- Do you want to pitch a publisher now, or write the manuscript first and then start the editing & publishing?  This could help you handle the deadlines better, either by being free of them or by being under the editor’s deadline gun.
- Write at about the same pace, or carve up the assignments to match your individual writing speeds.  If one of you writes faster then that person should probably tackle the longer/harder parts.
- Set a regular meeting time between yourselves (online or in person) for 30-60 minutes to review progress and the next steps.  Maybe it’s weekly or biweekly.  (The Y Combinator accelerator holds Tuesday dinner gatherings of the startups in their cohort, and the staff invites a guest mentor to talk about the glamorous founder life.  It turned out that although the cohort’s founders appreciated the mentoring, they were much more motivated to have a progress report ready to share among their peers on Tuesday night.)
- Choose your perspective early in the format.  First person?  Third person?  Will you both write about the same character or will you each write a character’s thoughts & experiences in your own voices?
- Since you’re writing as a team, here’s an idea.  John Scalzi wrote an entire novel about a protagonist named “Chris.”  He did it entirely in gender-neutral terms, and by the end of the book you still couldn’t tell whether Chris was male or female.  Most readers assumed a gender at the start and never noticed the ambivalence.
- Are you using images in the book, and will this screw up the eBook or the audiobook format?
- Will you follow your published book with a graphic-novel comic format?
- C’mon, get an editor.  You want unbiased opinions from a third party so that you two authors can sort out the solutions.  If nothing else, it’ll unite you two authors against a common authority figure. 
- How does the reader follow along in your story?  (Hopefully you have a big beta-reader group.)  Does each chapter alternate between characters or between scenes?
- Don’t edit the other person’s writing.  (Don’t even fix grammar or spelling.)  Share your questions & concerns and leave it to the other to make their changes. 
- How are you doing the marketing?  Are you starting a podcast together, or recording videos together, or guesting on other shows?  Will you attend a convention together for your genre?
- Are you recording the audiobook in your voices or using voiceover artists?
- Who’s running the website and the social media?  Or do you both promote the book on your own sites & channels?
- I’m assuming that you’re splitting the expenses and the royalties evenly.  But I might be mistaken.
- How are you splitting other rights, like foreign-language translations and movie options?



Nick_Miller

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #112 on: February 17, 2022, 07:47:20 AM »
@Nords - Thanks for giving me so much more to think about. There's no way I can respond to all of that, but I read every word and added some notes to my "Discussion List" with my friend.

To hit just a few of the big ones, I have used a smaller publisher (one that has very fair contracts, listens to me, and has a great reader base, so basically a unicorn) in the past but I'm shifting to indie. She is 100% indie. This would be an indie project for sure. Of course there is a time for Google Docs and such, but I find constant back-and-forth extremely inefficient. I am a lawyer, I work best on the phone and in person, especially for the big conversations. It's amazing how much you can iron out in a 20-minute discussion as opposed to going back and forth forever, at least IMO.

I would envision more telephone/in-person contact at the start with a gradual shift toward more electronic communication once we're in a groove, to ensure we've set a solid foundation.

And I think there are significant upsides, or else I wouldn't be considering this. I need to target more female readers, that's a given. Fewer and fewer dudes even read fiction, and those that do seem to gravitate toward epic fantasy, hard sci-fi, and thrillers, which are not exactly my wheelhouse. I enjoy writing more character-focused stuff and I think I could learn a LOT by writing with my friend and learning how she creates stories that meet her reader's expectations. I dig her sense of humor, and I totally think we could learn to write with a unified voice (we wouldn't have to do a girl POV/guy POV structure at all).

Other stuff is trickier. If I use a pen name (to avoid confusing my existing audience) I'd clearly be starting over with social media and probably would just focus on writing the books as opposed to wasting time on social media (I'm becoming more convinced it's a poor use of time).

I would anticipate we split all costs/royalties 50/50 and I know there is software out there that will help do that. We both have war chests to pay for publishing costs. She is much better at ads than I am. We are used to critiquing each other's work and making suggestions; out of everyone in my writing group, I respect her opinions the most. I believe she feels the same about mine. Honestly, we are the only two people in our writing group who are actually selling books and making money. I think it's natural that we've gravitated toward one another. The others treat it more as a hobby.

The first steps for me are:

1) finish up my current WIP and get it published.
2) read a LOT in my friend's suggested genre (focusing on newer, indie books)
3) and read a few more of my friend's published books (I've read a few already)

That will likely push me to April or so, and I'll see where we are. She is currently reading more of my stuff (she's read some of them already) and wrapping up a project of her own.

Again, thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts! That's REALY cool that you got to write a book with your daughter, and it was super interesting to read about how you avoided certain pitfalls. I can see how leaving corrections to the editor instead of editing one another probably mitigated conflict between the two of you. Maybe one day I can write a book with one of my daughters! Oh god I'm getting grey hairs already just thinking about it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 07:54:15 AM by Nick_Miller »

Nords

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #113 on: February 17, 2022, 08:52:01 AM »
I'm glad to help.  I've spent a lot of time nerding out with editors and authors... probably when I should've been writing.

I liked the inefficient back & forth of a Google Doc because we could each take the time to think about the ideas instead of having to react to suggestions in real time and be polite with each other and all of the social manners.  I'm very much an introvert who prefers working in solitude to being social, and I've never written fiction, so it might be a completely different process depending on who writes what.  I can only imagine how co-authors did this during the second millennium with only postal mail and side-by-side instead of e-mail and Google tools.

Other stuff is trickier. If I use a pen name (to avoid confusing my existing audience) I'd clearly be starting over with social media and probably would just focus on writing the books as opposed to wasting time on social media (I'm becoming more convinced it's a poor use of time).
My audience finds me over social media, and that's where we have most of our conversations about the topics.  We got a ton of use out of Facebook:  the poll for the format of our book, the votes on the cover design, the discussions about what made the cut for the book (and what didn't)... we built a pre-launch team there and turned them into a tremendous crowd of eager buyers. 

But neither of us danced on TikTok.  Maybe I missed an opportunity there.

More importantly, the social media campaign generated the pre-orders to briefly put the book at #1 on Amazon's New & Noteworthy, and it kept us in the top 25 (the first screen) of personal-finance books for over a month after launch.  Ironically we also ranked in the top 25 of parenting books, which both my spouse and I found amusing for a personal-finance book. 

That's REALY cool that you got to write a book with your daughter, and it was super interesting to read about how you avoided certain pitfalls. I can see how leaving corrections to the editor instead of editing one another probably mitigated conflict between the two of you. Maybe one day I can write a book with one of my daughters! Oh god I'm getting grey hairs already just thinking about it.
Early in the process I didn't want to squash my daughter's voice or start an argument.  Later in the process I realized that every co-author would want to be treated that way, including me.  The editor helped us change all of the words that we needed to change. 

If we'd added up the redlines then I think I had more than her.  There might also have been a substantial amount of editorial frustration with one co-author who learned to type in the 1970s and will forever put two spaces after the end of a sentence.

On the other hand my daughter and I have verified that she has most of my genome, she's known me all of her life, and maybe we just think so alike that there wasn't much to change.

It was a lot of fun to watch Carol light up over the idea.  At the time I thought I was just going to get a blog post or a funny story out of our dinner-table conversation.  She watched me write my first book while she was growing up so she must have thought "If Dad could write a book, how hard could it be?"  The whole project was also a very convenient excuse to talk in a non-threatening way about how she was raised and what we could have done differently.  We even changed the way a couple of editors were teaching their kids...

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #114 on: February 17, 2022, 12:01:52 PM »

I didn't write one technical book with a number of co-authors because they didn't pull their weight - any weight actually - and the project was too big for me to do by myself.   I didn't know them well beforehand and that's where things went wrong.  Lots of people want to HAVE WRITTEN a book but very few want to sit down and do the hard work to WRITE one.

I've also written one technical book and several technical papers/articles with co-authors.   

With the right people, it's a joy.

If I did it again, I would look for people who are professional in their behavior, who have a proven track record of being able to write well, and who are reasonable and personable adults who take pride in their work and their friendships, and who fully understand that critiquing a written work is not necessarily an attack on the author.   

I would also recommend collaborating on a smaller work first to see how well you work together.  Perhaps a few scenes from the book idea you're working on would be a good choice.

Technical writing, though, is very straightforward and much simpler to do well than fiction.   Fiction is VERY HARD by comparison.

 

Nick_Miller

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #115 on: February 21, 2022, 11:15:37 AM »
Okay, we're going to give it try! I think she is even more excited than I am.

We have a sit-down scheduled in late March in a coffee shop. I bought the Joanna Penn co-writing book today (thanks, @Kris). I'm reading three (indie) top-selling books in our proposed genre before the meeting (so one book per week). And we're making lists (mine will likely be based on Joanna's book) to nail down all of the important issues to consider and decide on.  I'm trying to finish the draft of my current WIP by then. It needs about 30k more words. That would clear my plate to devote much of my creative energy to this co-project this spring.

I think our discussion of the co-writing issues will inform how we split up the work, how we outline, does one of us do the draft, etc.

If anyone's interested, I'll report back in a month or two.




Kris

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #116 on: February 21, 2022, 11:44:27 AM »
Okay, we're going to give it try! I think she is even more excited than I am.

We have a sit-down scheduled in late March in a coffee shop. I bought the Joanna Penn co-writing book today (thanks, @Kris). I'm reading three (indie) top-selling books in our proposed genre before the meeting (so one book per week). And we're making lists (mine will likely be based on Joanna's book) to nail down all of the important issues to consider and decide on.  I'm trying to finish the draft of my current WIP by then. It needs about 30k more words. That would clear my plate to devote much of my creative energy to this co-project this spring.

I think our discussion of the co-writing issues will inform how we split up the work, how we outline, does one of us do the draft, etc.

If anyone's interested, I'll report back in a month or two.

Cool! I would definitely like updates. Many of the successful writers in my subgenre very happily co-write most of their stuff. I know it more than pays off for them in terms of the rapidity with which they can release. Good luck!

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2022, 02:40:14 PM »
I just finished The Screenwriter's Troubleshooter and am a goodly way into Screenwriting Unchained, both by Emmanuel Oberg.  Already finished The Screenwriter's Bible by Trottier.

They're intended for screenplays, not novels.  However, I think much of the material in them is worth thinking about for short stories and novels, too.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #118 on: March 01, 2022, 07:35:27 AM »
Can I toss another question out there to my fellow writers about pen names, platforms, and audience expectations?

The genre my friend and I are discussing co-writing in is almost entirely read (and written) by women. We're having a discussion of the pros and cons of how to approach this, basically how much to 'hide' me.

Options:

1) List both of us as authors on the book, but I use a (new) gender neutral pen name and create a gender neutral bio.   Gender is no longer an issue, but my entire platform is wasted if I hide like this. But, it won't mess up the auto boughts. Do readers care that there are two authors? Probably not at all.

2) Put just her as the author but she pays me a royalty split anyway.  In this scenario, I'm just helping her crank out content, but obviously it creates a lot of questions about copyright and long-term expectations. I'm not wild about being totally invisible and having no direct control.

3) Put both of us as authors on the book, and I use my regular, established name (which is clearly male).   I'm worried about this messing up the also boughts big time. I also fear having a male co-author may be viewed negatively by the audience. I'd have my existing audience, but I don't think many would follow me to this genre.

The whole idea of hiding myself is foreign to me. I slap my real name on every book I write, every platform I manage, etc. I've spent time over the years building a (very modest) brand.
In many ways, "going into hiding" seems like taking a step backwards. BUT...I'm interested in diversifying my income, and striking out in a totally different genre strikes me as a way to do it.

Any thoughts about any of this? I think she is leaning towards encouraging me to create a new pen name. One thing I've considered is that I wouldn't be able to "lean into" the new pen name. I mean, it would just be there, but it wouldn't be something I promote. I have no interest in starting social medial accounts for a pen name, I'd just want to lay low.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 07:49:38 AM by Nick_Miller »

Missy B

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #119 on: March 01, 2022, 10:53:44 AM »
Can I toss another question out there to my fellow writers about pen names, platforms, and audience expectations?

The genre my friend and I are discussing co-writing in is almost entirely read (and written) by women. We're having a discussion of the pros and cons of how to approach this, basically how much to 'hide' me.

Options:

1) List both of us as authors on the book, but I use a (new) gender neutral pen name and create a gender neutral bio.   Gender is no longer an issue, but my entire platform is wasted if I hide like this. But, it won't mess up the auto boughts. Do readers care that there are two authors? Probably not at all.

2) Put just her as the author but she pays me a royalty split anyway.  In this scenario, I'm just helping her crank out content, but obviously it creates a lot of questions about copyright and long-term expectations. I'm not wild about being totally invisible and having no direct control.

3) Put both of us as authors on the book, and I use my regular, established name (which is clearly male).   I'm worried about this messing up the also boughts big time. I also fear having a male co-author may be viewed negatively by the audience. I'd have my existing audience, but I don't think many would follow me to this genre.

The whole idea of hiding myself is foreign to me. I slap my real name on every book I write, every platform I manage, etc. I've spent time over the years building a (very modest) brand.
In many ways, "going into hiding" seems like taking a step backwards. BUT...I'm interested in diversifying my income, and striking out in a totally different genre strikes me as a way to do it.

Any thoughts about any of this? I think she is leaning towards encouraging me to create a new pen name. One thing I've considered is that I wouldn't be able to "lean into" the new pen name. I mean, it would just be there, but it wouldn't be something I promote. I have no interest in starting social medial accounts for a pen name, I'd just want to lay low.
Which genre? Some men have made inroads into traditionally female genres. Nicholas Sparks for one. Truly, if the branding - the cover, title and blurb -- is really good then that's what's important. If its one of the romance subgenres where a male author might still be perceived as a negative, you could use your last name and initials. I think you want to make it easy to claim that project later.

If you don't see cross-over with your audience, I don't see it messing up the also-bots. I think those are based on actual purchases, not other books by the same author. Every author who writes in multiple genres and sells in all of them had to, at some point, take the risk that you're looking at taking.

Say you did put your obviously male name on the books and it did affect sales. If the books are really good, the readers who did read them will still refer other readers. The fan base will still build organically, if more slowly. If you really strike a chord with what you're doing and the books take off, people will even start saying its because one of you is male, that it gave you some sort of advantage in this female-dominated area...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 11:02:34 AM by Missy B »

nippycrisp

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #120 on: March 01, 2022, 12:03:45 PM »
James SA Corey approach?

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #121 on: March 01, 2022, 01:34:55 PM »
I would take the also-bought issue seriously, so I don't think I would use the name you use for your other books. I'd be inclined to do your initials. You could also do a different form of your first name (e.g. "Nicholas" instead of "Nick.") I think being openly a guy is not really an issue, especially as you are writing with a woman. Using your initials, of course, you wouldn't have to say either way. But I don't think you need to "hide." There are definitely indie romance authors who are guys who do very well these days, so being a male half of a writing team is not the potential detriment it might have been seen to be a few years ago.

The one thing I wouldn't do is overtly pretend to be a woman. I've seen a couple very weird instances recently where male authors were outed and some of their female audience was pretty weirded out because of conversations they had had with "her". (But I doubt you would do that anyway.)

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2022, 08:26:23 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, all. Happily, the Six Figure Author folks did a podcast on this topic this week so I am giving that a listen as well. I'm about 1/3 of the way in, and there are definitely giving me more to think about re: the pros and cons.

No, @Kris I totally agree there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, but honestly it's not clear where those lines are drawn in this tech age. What does it even mean to "overly pretend to be a woman?" It made me think about the first episode of New Girl where the main character assumes a woman wrote the "seeking roommate" ad just because the author, a guy, used words like "sun-soaked" and "beigy" in the ad. lol   

I'm most concerned with the nitty gritty economic considerations: the also-boughts (negative to using my existing name) and adding more marketing/administrative work (negative to using a pen name) although I guess if I don't market my pen name in any way other than release books under the name, it's not really any more marketing work.

@nippycrisp You know, that IS an idea, although I think my friend is intent on using her current name since she's already writing in this genre. But the SFA podcast folks were talking about how some 'authors' are actually collectives of people who co-write or even just rotate writing books, so it LOOKS like one person is cranking out a book a month but it's deceptive.

The SFA podcasters were also talking about even though many readers understand the concept of pen names, that SOME readers will get upset if the author turns out to be someone very different than how the author is branded, or even how the author appears in their mind. I don't guess there is much anyone can do about those folks, other than if your appearance and personality are naturally spot on with a specific genre.

@Missy B I guess I am afraid of taking a risk, mostly because I don't want to mess up my friend's business. She is doing this full-time and is really trying to make a go of this, whereas I still have a full-time day job and don't need the book $ nearly as much, so I feel I need to defer to her on a lot of this (but not all of it). If I say, "Hey maybe it will get us some positive attention with a guy co-author" she would likely say, "It's possible, but is it really likely?" It's a lot to gamble. You know what the pros say, write to market, design your cover to market, hit those tropes. We don't necessarily want to stand out in a way that could be very negative to many folks.

Kris

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2022, 09:20:00 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, all. Happily, the Six Figure Author folks did a podcast on this topic this week so I am giving that a listen as well. I'm about 1/3 of the way in, and there are definitely giving me more to think about re: the pros and cons.

No, @Kris I totally agree there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, but honestly it's not clear where those lines are drawn in this tech age. What does it even mean to "overly pretend to be a woman?" It made me think about the first episode of New Girl where the main character assumes a woman wrote the "seeking roommate" ad just because the author, a guy, used words like "sun-soaked" and "beigy" in the ad. lol   


In the particular example I'm thinking of, this person was pretending to be a woman in "her" reader fan group for example, and engaging in basically discussions of a sexual nature (discussions about sex acts/orgasms and personal experiences of the readers that they were talking about in this private group on the assumption that the author was a woman like they were). When this author was outed as a man, many readers were justifiably upset and angry that he had been participating in these sexual conversations with them and asking personal questions pretending to be a woman.

So, an extreme example. But one that illustrates, nonetheless, that when using a pen name of an opposite gender, it's best to have a clear sense of what is and is not "acceptable."

Nick_Miller

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2022, 09:39:23 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, all. Happily, the Six Figure Author folks did a podcast on this topic this week so I am giving that a listen as well. I'm about 1/3 of the way in, and there are definitely giving me more to think about re: the pros and cons.

No, @Kris I totally agree there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, but honestly it's not clear where those lines are drawn in this tech age. What does it even mean to "overly pretend to be a woman?" It made me think about the first episode of New Girl where the main character assumes a woman wrote the "seeking roommate" ad just because the author, a guy, used words like "sun-soaked" and "beigy" in the ad. lol   


In the particular example I'm thinking of, this person was pretending to be a woman in "her" reader fan group for example, and engaging in basically discussions of a sexual nature (discussions about sex acts/orgasms and personal experiences of the readers that they were talking about in this private group on the assumption that the author was a woman like they were). When this author was outed as a man, many readers were justifiably upset and angry that he had been participating in these sexual conversations with them and asking personal questions pretending to be a woman.

So, an extreme example. But one that illustrates, nonetheless, that when using a pen name of an opposite gender, it's best to have a clear sense of what is and is not "acceptable."

That is so many magnitudes beyond acceptable behavior it boggles my masculine mind! I'm tempted to google him but I have a lunch meeting and I don't want to be in that headspace.

I was thinking more along the lines of could a guy author with a 'feminine' pen name use things like traditionally feminine objects/color palates for social media avatars, traditionally feminine stylings/fonts for a website, etc., or mention traditionally feminine hobbies in the bio? To me, those are more gray area in that they might 'send a message' but hell isn't that was branding is supposed to do? It wouldn't encourage communication or anything, it would just meet readers' author/genre expectations. This sort of thing, IMO, is harmless, although I'm not a woman so perhaps I'm not the best to judge. Do you have any thoughts on this sorta thing, @Kris ?

Again, I think my friend would have some ideas here, and I highly doubt I would spend time on social media pushing the pen name anyway. I'm trying to stay off social media! Look what Brandon Sanderson did with 2 years of relative quiet - he cranked out four HUUUUUGE books.

Kris

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2022, 10:36:01 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, all. Happily, the Six Figure Author folks did a podcast on this topic this week so I am giving that a listen as well. I'm about 1/3 of the way in, and there are definitely giving me more to think about re: the pros and cons.

No, @Kris I totally agree there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, but honestly it's not clear where those lines are drawn in this tech age. What does it even mean to "overly pretend to be a woman?" It made me think about the first episode of New Girl where the main character assumes a woman wrote the "seeking roommate" ad just because the author, a guy, used words like "sun-soaked" and "beigy" in the ad. lol   


In the particular example I'm thinking of, this person was pretending to be a woman in "her" reader fan group for example, and engaging in basically discussions of a sexual nature (discussions about sex acts/orgasms and personal experiences of the readers that they were talking about in this private group on the assumption that the author was a woman like they were). When this author was outed as a man, many readers were justifiably upset and angry that he had been participating in these sexual conversations with them and asking personal questions pretending to be a woman.

So, an extreme example. But one that illustrates, nonetheless, that when using a pen name of an opposite gender, it's best to have a clear sense of what is and is not "acceptable."

That is so many magnitudes beyond acceptable behavior it boggles my masculine mind! I'm tempted to google him but I have a lunch meeting and I don't want to be in that headspace.

I was thinking more along the lines of could a guy author with a 'feminine' pen name use things like traditionally feminine objects/color palates for social media avatars, traditionally feminine stylings/fonts for a website, etc., or mention traditionally feminine hobbies in the bio? To me, those are more gray area in that they might 'send a message' but hell isn't that was branding is supposed to do? It wouldn't encourage communication or anything, it would just meet readers' author/genre expectations. This sort of thing, IMO, is harmless, although I'm not a woman so perhaps I'm not the best to judge. Do you have any thoughts on this sorta thing, @Kris ?

Again, I think my friend would have some ideas here, and I highly doubt I would spend time on social media pushing the pen name anyway. I'm trying to stay off social media! Look what Brandon Sanderson did with 2 years of relative quiet - he cranked out four HUUUUUGE books.

It's a good question. Pre-indie publishing, I would have said it was fine to do that stuff, because authors had such limited contact with their readers that the author persona was more of a figurehead. And pre-this situation with the author I mentioned above, I would have said, gray area but hey, plenty of authors have created a persona behind a pen name, it's nothing new.

I guess the question is how far to go. If you created a female-sounding pen name complete with bio and avatar, and never actually say you are a woman... is that "lying"? And does it really matter, especially if you are not planning to interact with readers?

Honestly, I don't know. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with it. And readers are not likely to ever know. Of course, if you become wildly successful and need to start making public appearances, then it becomes an issue...

Ultimately, I'd say the fact that you are writing with a woman sort of "shields" you from any potential recriminations. (Unlikely as they are to occur.)

Plenty of male authors do create a feminine-looking/sounding pen name persona. I used to know quite a few of them. But these days it's also a lot more acceptable for guys to write romance as guys.

What would I do, personally? Hmmm... I would probably adopt initials and, like you said, sort of use "feminine/romantic" color palettes/design. But not overtly state my gender, and create a bio that is ambiguous without being too (mis)leading.

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #126 on: March 04, 2022, 09:16:52 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, all. Happily, the Six Figure Author folks did a podcast on this topic this week so I am giving that a listen as well. I'm about 1/3 of the way in, and there are definitely giving me more to think about re: the pros and cons.

No, @Kris I totally agree there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, but honestly it's not clear where those lines are drawn in this tech age. What does it even mean to "overly pretend to be a woman?" It made me think about the first episode of New Girl where the main character assumes a woman wrote the "seeking roommate" ad just because the author, a guy, used words like "sun-soaked" and "beigy" in the ad. lol   


In the particular example I'm thinking of, this person was pretending to be a woman in "her" reader fan group for example, and engaging in basically discussions of a sexual nature (discussions about sex acts/orgasms and personal experiences of the readers that they were talking about in this private group on the assumption that the author was a woman like they were). When this author was outed as a man, many readers were justifiably upset and angry that he had been participating in these sexual conversations with them and asking personal questions pretending to be a woman.

So, an extreme example. But one that illustrates, nonetheless, that when using a pen name of an opposite gender, it's best to have a clear sense of what is and is not "acceptable."

That is so many magnitudes beyond acceptable behavior it boggles my masculine mind! I'm tempted to google him but I have a lunch meeting and I don't want to be in that headspace.

I was thinking more along the lines of could a guy author with a 'feminine' pen name use things like traditionally feminine objects/color palates for social media avatars, traditionally feminine stylings/fonts for a website, etc., or mention traditionally feminine hobbies in the bio? To me, those are more gray area in that they might 'send a message' but hell isn't that was branding is supposed to do? It wouldn't encourage communication or anything, it would just meet readers' author/genre expectations. This sort of thing, IMO, is harmless, although I'm not a woman so perhaps I'm not the best to judge. Do you have any thoughts on this sorta thing, @Kris ?

Again, I think my friend would have some ideas here, and I highly doubt I would spend time on social media pushing the pen name anyway. I'm trying to stay off social media! Look what Brandon Sanderson did with 2 years of relative quiet - he cranked out four HUUUUUGE books.

It's a good question. Pre-indie publishing, I would have said it was fine to do that stuff, because authors had such limited contact with their readers that the author persona was more of a figurehead. And pre-this situation with the author I mentioned above, I would have said, gray area but hey, plenty of authors have created a persona behind a pen name, it's nothing new.

I guess the question is how far to go. If you created a female-sounding pen name complete with bio and avatar, and never actually say you are a woman... is that "lying"? And does it really matter, especially if you are not planning to interact with readers?

Honestly, I don't know. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with it. And readers are not likely to ever know. Of course, if you become wildly successful and need to start making public appearances, then it becomes an issue...

Ultimately, I'd say the fact that you are writing with a woman sort of "shields" you from any potential recriminations. (Unlikely as they are to occur.)

Plenty of male authors do create a feminine-looking/sounding pen name persona. I used to know quite a few of them. But these days it's also a lot more acceptable for guys to write romance as guys.

What would I do, personally? Hmmm... I would probably adopt initials and, like you said, sort of use "feminine/romantic" color palettes/design. But not overtly state my gender, and create a bio that is ambiguous without being too (mis)leading.

(Speaking primarily as a reader) I'm not a fan of male authors pretending to be women. I don't mind things like using initials to downplay gender, but anything that's designed to imply they are actually female would bother me if I found out. I think I'd stop reading an author in that case. I don't think it's the dishonesty that concerns me (I don't think a writer owes the reader any information about themselves), but the fact that it seems to be trying to get the "benefits" of being a woman in a world where female writers are still dealing with a lot of sexism. You wouldn't create an Asian pen name to write historical fiction set in 1600's China, right? This feels the same to me.

Kris

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #127 on: March 04, 2022, 09:58:55 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, all. Happily, the Six Figure Author folks did a podcast on this topic this week so I am giving that a listen as well. I'm about 1/3 of the way in, and there are definitely giving me more to think about re: the pros and cons.

No, @Kris I totally agree there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, but honestly it's not clear where those lines are drawn in this tech age. What does it even mean to "overly pretend to be a woman?" It made me think about the first episode of New Girl where the main character assumes a woman wrote the "seeking roommate" ad just because the author, a guy, used words like "sun-soaked" and "beigy" in the ad. lol   


In the particular example I'm thinking of, this person was pretending to be a woman in "her" reader fan group for example, and engaging in basically discussions of a sexual nature (discussions about sex acts/orgasms and personal experiences of the readers that they were talking about in this private group on the assumption that the author was a woman like they were). When this author was outed as a man, many readers were justifiably upset and angry that he had been participating in these sexual conversations with them and asking personal questions pretending to be a woman.

So, an extreme example. But one that illustrates, nonetheless, that when using a pen name of an opposite gender, it's best to have a clear sense of what is and is not "acceptable."

That is so many magnitudes beyond acceptable behavior it boggles my masculine mind! I'm tempted to google him but I have a lunch meeting and I don't want to be in that headspace.

I was thinking more along the lines of could a guy author with a 'feminine' pen name use things like traditionally feminine objects/color palates for social media avatars, traditionally feminine stylings/fonts for a website, etc., or mention traditionally feminine hobbies in the bio? To me, those are more gray area in that they might 'send a message' but hell isn't that was branding is supposed to do? It wouldn't encourage communication or anything, it would just meet readers' author/genre expectations. This sort of thing, IMO, is harmless, although I'm not a woman so perhaps I'm not the best to judge. Do you have any thoughts on this sorta thing, @Kris ?

Again, I think my friend would have some ideas here, and I highly doubt I would spend time on social media pushing the pen name anyway. I'm trying to stay off social media! Look what Brandon Sanderson did with 2 years of relative quiet - he cranked out four HUUUUUGE books.

It's a good question. Pre-indie publishing, I would have said it was fine to do that stuff, because authors had such limited contact with their readers that the author persona was more of a figurehead. And pre-this situation with the author I mentioned above, I would have said, gray area but hey, plenty of authors have created a persona behind a pen name, it's nothing new.

I guess the question is how far to go. If you created a female-sounding pen name complete with bio and avatar, and never actually say you are a woman... is that "lying"? And does it really matter, especially if you are not planning to interact with readers?

Honestly, I don't know. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with it. And readers are not likely to ever know. Of course, if you become wildly successful and need to start making public appearances, then it becomes an issue...

Ultimately, I'd say the fact that you are writing with a woman sort of "shields" you from any potential recriminations. (Unlikely as they are to occur.)

Plenty of male authors do create a feminine-looking/sounding pen name persona. I used to know quite a few of them. But these days it's also a lot more acceptable for guys to write romance as guys.

What would I do, personally? Hmmm... I would probably adopt initials and, like you said, sort of use "feminine/romantic" color palettes/design. But not overtly state my gender, and create a bio that is ambiguous without being too (mis)leading.

(Speaking primarily as a reader) I'm not a fan of male authors pretending to be women. I don't mind things like using initials to downplay gender, but anything that's designed to imply they are actually female would bother me if I found out. I think I'd stop reading an author in that case. I don't think it's the dishonesty that concerns me (I don't think a writer owes the reader any information about themselves), but the fact that it seems to be trying to get the "benefits" of being a woman in a world where female writers are still dealing with a lot of sexism. You wouldn't create an Asian pen name to write historical fiction set in 1600's China, right? This feels the same to me.

I think this is a good point. And there has actually been a recent case of a white author adopting an Asian pen name/persona precisely for these purposes. It blew up in his face, and caused a lot of outrage. There was even a resurrection of a term for it: "yellowface."

Nick_Miller

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #128 on: March 04, 2022, 11:07:23 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, all. Happily, the Six Figure Author folks did a podcast on this topic this week so I am giving that a listen as well. I'm about 1/3 of the way in, and there are definitely giving me more to think about re: the pros and cons.

No, @Kris I totally agree there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, but honestly it's not clear where those lines are drawn in this tech age. What does it even mean to "overly pretend to be a woman?" It made me think about the first episode of New Girl where the main character assumes a woman wrote the "seeking roommate" ad just because the author, a guy, used words like "sun-soaked" and "beigy" in the ad. lol   


In the particular example I'm thinking of, this person was pretending to be a woman in "her" reader fan group for example, and engaging in basically discussions of a sexual nature (discussions about sex acts/orgasms and personal experiences of the readers that they were talking about in this private group on the assumption that the author was a woman like they were). When this author was outed as a man, many readers were justifiably upset and angry that he had been participating in these sexual conversations with them and asking personal questions pretending to be a woman.

So, an extreme example. But one that illustrates, nonetheless, that when using a pen name of an opposite gender, it's best to have a clear sense of what is and is not "acceptable."

That is so many magnitudes beyond acceptable behavior it boggles my masculine mind! I'm tempted to google him but I have a lunch meeting and I don't want to be in that headspace.

I was thinking more along the lines of could a guy author with a 'feminine' pen name use things like traditionally feminine objects/color palates for social media avatars, traditionally feminine stylings/fonts for a website, etc., or mention traditionally feminine hobbies in the bio? To me, those are more gray area in that they might 'send a message' but hell isn't that was branding is supposed to do? It wouldn't encourage communication or anything, it would just meet readers' author/genre expectations. This sort of thing, IMO, is harmless, although I'm not a woman so perhaps I'm not the best to judge. Do you have any thoughts on this sorta thing, @Kris ?

Again, I think my friend would have some ideas here, and I highly doubt I would spend time on social media pushing the pen name anyway. I'm trying to stay off social media! Look what Brandon Sanderson did with 2 years of relative quiet - he cranked out four HUUUUUGE books.

It's a good question. Pre-indie publishing, I would have said it was fine to do that stuff, because authors had such limited contact with their readers that the author persona was more of a figurehead. And pre-this situation with the author I mentioned above, I would have said, gray area but hey, plenty of authors have created a persona behind a pen name, it's nothing new.

I guess the question is how far to go. If you created a female-sounding pen name complete with bio and avatar, and never actually say you are a woman... is that "lying"? And does it really matter, especially if you are not planning to interact with readers?

Honestly, I don't know. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with it. And readers are not likely to ever know. Of course, if you become wildly successful and need to start making public appearances, then it becomes an issue...

Ultimately, I'd say the fact that you are writing with a woman sort of "shields" you from any potential recriminations. (Unlikely as they are to occur.)

Plenty of male authors do create a feminine-looking/sounding pen name persona. I used to know quite a few of them. But these days it's also a lot more acceptable for guys to write romance as guys.

What would I do, personally? Hmmm... I would probably adopt initials and, like you said, sort of use "feminine/romantic" color palettes/design. But not overtly state my gender, and create a bio that is ambiguous without being too (mis)leading.

(Speaking primarily as a reader) I'm not a fan of male authors pretending to be women. I don't mind things like using initials to downplay gender, but anything that's designed to imply they are actually female would bother me if I found out. I think I'd stop reading an author in that case. I don't think it's the dishonesty that concerns me (I don't think a writer owes the reader any information about themselves), but the fact that it seems to be trying to get the "benefits" of being a woman in a world where female writers are still dealing with a lot of sexism. You wouldn't create an Asian pen name to write historical fiction set in 1600's China, right? This feels the same to me.

I think this is a good point. And there has actually been a recent case of a white author adopting an Asian pen name/persona precisely for these purposes. It blew up in his face, and caused a lot of outrage. There was even a resurrection of a term for it: "yellowface."

@Watchmaker I appreciate hearing your views as a reader. See, that's one of my concerns, pissing off potential readers.

I think there's maybe a unique aspect to the creator/audience relationship when it comes to the literary world. Perhaps in our world, because it's still generally one author writing a novel that perhaps the audience feels a more personal connection to the creator, as opposed to gamers, movie goers, etc. I mean, if a cool ass game is designed by some nebulous-sounding game studio, who cares? Movies are produced and created by hundreds of entities, and if viewers 'attach' to anyone emotionally, it's almost certainly the actors, not the creatives behind the scenes.

But maybe because people view books as a more intimate glimpse inside of another person's head, they create a deeper connection, and perhaps more intense or intimate expectations from the reader?

@Watchmaker what if you found out your favorite 'author' was really a group of 4 people co-writing novels? Would that leave a sour taste in your mouth? Would you be okay with it? Would it depend on your feelings toward that particular 'author?' I'm super curious about your views on this stuff!

As the indie publishing space becomes less intimate (more co-authoring and writing in groups, and the imminent arrival of AI programs) and more 'corporate,' it's hard for a regular person (like me, and I think Kris is 'regular' too :)  )) to know how to thread these needles.

And let's face it; women read fiction and few men do anymore, so yes there are certainly huge and clear benefits for female authors. I'm not saying this is bad, or that it's not a few centuries or more overdue, but it's definitely the state of times imo. With many women clearly stating a preference for reading books they believe are authored by women, men are left to either 'downplay' their manliness (and that's hard for an uber masculine guy like me!), resort to outright deceit, hope/pray that women will give them a chance, or just work inside a male-dominated genre, maybe "hard sci fi" or something, which bleh holds no appeal to me.


Watchmaker

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #129 on: March 04, 2022, 12:19:08 PM »
@Watchmaker I appreciate hearing your views as a reader. See, that's one of my concerns, pissing off potential readers.

I think there's maybe a unique aspect to the creator/audience relationship when it comes to the literary world. Perhaps in our world, because it's still generally one author writing a novel that perhaps the audience feels a more personal connection to the creator, as opposed to gamers, movie goers, etc. I mean, if a cool ass game is designed by some nebulous-sounding game studio, who cares? Movies are produced and created by hundreds of entities, and if viewers 'attach' to anyone emotionally, it's almost certainly the actors, not the creatives behind the scenes.

But maybe because people view books as a more intimate glimpse inside of another person's head, they create a deeper connection, and perhaps more intense or intimate expectations from the reader?

@Watchmaker what if you found out your favorite 'author' was really a group of 4 people co-writing novels? Would that leave a sour taste in your mouth? Would you be okay with it? Would it depend on your feelings toward that particular 'author?' I'm super curious about your views on this stuff!

I think I'd be fine with finding out an author I liked was really a collective, as long as I didn't feel overly mislead and the lie didn't seem... nefarious. If there was a fake bio on their website, fake photos of the author--that kind of thing-- I would probably be quite annoyed. Still, if the deception felt mostly harmless, I don't think I'd go as far as stopping reading their work. My bigger problem would be if I felt an author misrepresented their identity in order to appropriate a benefit from the group they were claiming to be from. So if I thought the writer was a woman, but it turned out to be three man (like these guys: https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/10/18/secretive-writer-carmen-mola-revealed-to-be-three-men/), I would be quite angry. There's enough sexism in the world (including the publishing world) that a man pretending to be a women raises a red flag for me.

If my preference for reading in the romance genre was to read women writers I think I'd be justified in feeling a bit violated finding out my favorite writer "Nicola Miller" is actually a man. If, instead, my favorite writer was "N. Miller" who never said what their gender was and always cowrote books with a woman, I don't think I'd be upset to find out N. Miller is a man.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #130 on: March 04, 2022, 01:58:10 PM »
(I'm also not an author)

Nick_Miller - Not that I know anything, but I have a hunch this collaboration is going to be successful.  If that happens, you have to keep using the alias from this book.  And further, I've inferred you want to "break in" to the genre or audience where your friend is more successful, so you might want to keep using the alias to see how that pans out, as well.

If fans criticize you for being a guy, how personally will you take that?  If you view it as constructive, maybe a male sounding name is also an opportunity to invite criticism, and learn?  But if none of that applies, with a callback to earlier in this thread... you could go with "Chris".  :D

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Re: Any FIRE’d budding or ‘actual’ writers?
« Reply #131 on: March 04, 2022, 02:24:36 PM »
@Watchmaker what if you found out your favorite 'author' was really a group of 4 people co-writing novels? Would that leave a sour taste in your mouth? Would you be okay with it? Would it depend on your feelings toward that particular 'author?' I'm super curious about your views on this stuff!
For those who are old enough to remember Ellery Queen, those two authors seem to have done quite well for decades.

It was certainly better than having ghostwriters.