Would you pettily engage with this troll?

[wenchsenior]

So....  I can tell I'm in a super irritable mood this week for various tiresome reasons, b/c all of a sudden I'm spoiling for a fight with a random commenter who essentially called me (and a couple other people) liars in the comments section of a major publication.

I don't lie (not on purpose, typically) so I was quite shocked.

Argument is about the stupid sit/stand test of fitness, seemingly now used as shorthand measure for 'likelihood to die in the next few years'.

I've always found this test laughably, ridiculously easy, and I and several other people noted that we can do many repeated controlled reps of it in a row in less than a minute (I can do at least 15, more if they are very slightly less controlled and faster..I did about 23 this morning before the minute buzzer). Dude insists that is physically impossible even for an Olympic athlete.

My reasoning is: If this only moderately fit mid 50s woman can do that, the test is certainly incredibly faulty b/c it clearly favors shorter leaner people who have short or proportional legs, not long legs. I think lots of quite fit people (definitely fitter than me) who have different builds would struggle a lot more, such as my husband.

I'm sorely tempted to create a youtube burner account just so I can send him a video link of me doing a bunch of them in all sorts of variants... feet parallel (as the original study that designed the test allows), feet crossed on in front of the other (as article we are arguing about shows), shoes on, shoes off, all while flipping the bird LOL.

I've been maintaining equanimity in the face of personal irritation and the collapse of the nations democracy, but apparently this is how my bad impulses come out?

[Fru-Gal]

I definitely wouldn’t engage. If you made a comment already, leave it at that. You aren’t the only one questioning these “just one metric” tests for longevity.

One quibble though, I thought the point was if you could do it once. How many reps has nothing to do with it. It’s mainly a question of balance/flexibility/proprioception. I do notice that women do it much easier than men (the family has done it a bunch at holiday gatherings). In our case our very fit elderly folks (80s) could not do it and we didn’t certainly want them to hurt themselves trying! However, they can get down on the floor and back up.

Sadly the online fitness space is filled with grifters, as perhaps health always has been (snake oil). Very hard to separate good advice and science from the bad. Where YouTube can shine is when you see a slow development of information and inquisitiveness and you can see the personality of the fitness adherent and make your own decisions. The reverse also often happens, especially with fame and money.

The longevity grifters are maybe more terrible… Peter Attia, Bryan Johnson, the Stanford dude, the doc who recommended metformin for anti-aging, etc. Attia was saying VO2Max is the key to longevity, and now that’s back in question. Attia at least may be open to questioning his approaches and revising. Johnson seems mentally ill.

I really like this guy I AM LONGEVITY, who takes all those guys to task and cites scientific studies. His thing is motor units, and the neuromuscular connection. Do I take his beliefs as gospel? No. However, his inspiring example also generally won’t harm me (unless, as with anything, I take it to extremes and injure myself).

[Morning Glory]

I just got 32 lol. Dude's full of it, but I don't think the number actually matters once you get past a pretty low bar.

People who don't have the core and lower body strength to get up from a chair without using their arms are at higher risk of falls, which are a major contributing factor to deaths in older adults. It's also an indication that a person is frail and probably has some comorbidities . Across a large population you can say relative risk of death is higher in people who are fall risks than in those who are not. For an individual it means nothing. 

Health journalism has always sucked when it comes to interpreting these kind of studies and I can only imagine podcasts and YouTube are worse (I don't watch them). 

[NotJen]

People who don't have the core and lower body strength to get up from a chair without using their arms are at higher risk of falls, which are a major contributing factor to deaths in older adults.

Isn't this talking about the test to get up from sitting on the floor without using your hands? 

I have never been able to do it without a little push from one hand, and am in awe of anyone who can actually do it, because it seems impossible.  I like the idea that my legs are just too long, but I'm probably just too fat.

[Kris]

Dumb people are dumb. You are not going to make them smarter by feeding them facts.

Edit: I am not smart enough to have learned this lesson for myself.

[reeshau]

Dumb people are dumb. You are not going to make them smarter by feeding them facts.

Edit: I am not smart enough to have learned this lesson for myself.

"You can't fix stupid." -- Ron White

[RetiredAt63]

People who don't have the core and lower body strength to get up from a chair without using their arms are at higher risk of falls, which are a major contributing factor to deaths in older adults.

Isn't this talking about the test to get up from sitting on the floor without using your hands? 

I have never been able to do it without a little push from one hand, and am in awe of anyone who can actually do it, because it seems impossible.  I like the idea that my legs are just too long, but I'm probably just too fat.

Some of those tests I couldn't do at 20.  With my knees the way they are now, I won't even try.

I'm still aiming for the family norm of 92.  Made it past 70.

So, forget the grain of salt about these tests, we need a few kg.   ;-)

[Loren Ver]

Don't feed the trolls.

If you feed them too much, they will never be able to get up off the floor and will die there leaving a mess for someone else to clean up.

[GuitarStv]

I like your youtube account idea.  Post a video of you doing the action more times than they say it's physically possible for an Olympic athlete to do.  That should end the conversation.  I am highly argumentative and often feel a burning need to prove other people wrong when they're wrong.  :P

FWIW, I also have long legs, but do Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  Moving around from awkward positions while keeping both hands free in front of you to ward off attacks is something I (and the ovewhelming majority of people in classes with me) do every day while sparring.  If you're talking about this kind of sit/stand test:


I just did ten reps of it with no issues at all to see if I could.  The tricky part for me is that when fully sitting my weight is far back on my ass, so I've got to lean pretty far forwards to start the rising motion.  Other than that, it's quite easy.

[bacchi]

This sit-to-stand is from a chair.

https://www.cdc.gov/steadi/media/pdfs/STEADI-Assessment-30Sec-508.pdf

For this test, as Morning Glory mentioned, it's testing falling risk.

"A below average score indicates a risk for falls."

[wenchsenior]

People who don't have the core and lower body strength to get up from a chair without using their arms are at higher risk of falls, which are a major contributing factor to deaths in older adults.

Isn't this talking about the test to get up from sitting on the floor without using your hands? 

I have never been able to do it without a little push from one hand, and am in awe of anyone who can actually do it, because it seems impossible.  I like the idea that my legs are just too long, but I'm probably just too fat.

Some of those tests I couldn't do at 20.  With my knees the way they are now, I won't even try.

I'm still aiming for the family norm of 92.  Made it past 70.

So, forget the grain of salt about these tests, we need a few kg.   ;-)

Yes, this is not the 'chair test' but the test that GuitarStv posted, where you stand, then in a controlled way lower yourself to sitting on the floor, then stand back up the same way...the original test can be done with feet parallel, but more recently people seem to all do it with feet crossed one in front of the other to make it harder.

The actual test is scored by removing points for every notable wobble, and for touching anything with your hands (your own knee, the ground), or using a knee (meaning shifting from foot onto a knee and then getting up). The way I do it is to just stretch my arms up and out in front of me the whole time.

A perfect score is doing the test with no points removed (e.g., perfect score 10).

The particular dumb beef I'm having is that this dude was saying that I was doing the test wrong (no) or that it's impossible to do many repetitions rapidly. Not only can I easily do the actual test with perfect score, but I can easily do it over and over again in rapid repetition...I can do more than 20 in a single minute when my knees and quads are fresh.

I am having a lot of other stress in life at the moment and I just...am not used to being called a liar, so I got inordinately annoyed.  You wiser heads are correct, I shouldn't engage, but I appreciate that GuitarStv understands! :solidarity:

Yeah, GuitarStv, the longer the legs the harder it would be...and taller also makes it harder (and being overweight of course, unless your weight is mostly in the lower body). Apart from the obvious (it's important that people are able to readily get up and down off the floor as they age), the disconnect of this exercise from most useful measures of fitness and the bias that body type confers just make it very silly and limited, but man it seems to be the rage on the internet this past year or two.

I'm pleased I can do it so easily, but I'm sure that it doesn't really tell much of anything about my fitness (I'm only moderately fit for absolute sure), only that I have the perfect body type for it. Shortish (5'4"), lean, proportional legs to height.

[wenchsenior]

Here's the original study that created the most recent surge of interest.

Also, one of my knees is sore today. DID THAT TO MYSELF LOL.

https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance-article/doi/10.1093/eurjpc/zwaf325/8163161?login=false

[wenchsenior]

Here's a good form demonstration (perfect 10 form in the first version at 18 seconds).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp7oLeASgpQ

[Morning Glory]

Here's the original study that created the most recent surge of interest.

Also, one of my knees is sore today. DID THAT TO MYSELF LOL.

https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance-article/doi/10.1093/eurjpc/zwaf325/8163161?login=false

Sorry, I thought you were talking about repeated chair stands, because those are common in medical research on aging.  I didn't know about standing from cross-legged being a test.  I think a lot of adults probably can't do it at all. Seems like all it's measuring is whether someone goes to yoga or not. I can do it, but gave up trying to time myself because my floor is hard and the sides of my feet started to hurt before I got to a minute.  I might try later with shoes  on.

[GuitarStv]

Here's a good form demonstration (perfect 10 form in the first version at 18 seconds).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp7oLeASgpQ

Yeah, that's what I was doing.  This is not a hard exercise.

[wenchsenior]

Here's the original study that created the most recent surge of interest.

Also, one of my knees is sore today. DID THAT TO MYSELF LOL.

https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance-article/doi/10.1093/eurjpc/zwaf325/8163161?login=false

Sorry, I thought you were talking about repeated chair stands, because those are common in medical research on aging.  I didn't know about standing from cross-legged being a test.  I think a lot of adults probably can't do it at all. Seems like all it's measuring is whether someone goes to yoga or not. I can do it, but gave up trying to time myself because my floor is hard and the sides of my feet started to hurt before I got to a minute.  I might try later with shoes  on.

Yes, the test is supposed to be barefoot but I think it would be easier with shoes, for sure. I've seen some people trying to do it (or succeeding) online who are literally trying to stand while balancing on the outer sides of their feet/ankles, which is insanely risky. That is specifically NOT a position that is supposed to be used according to the original authors.

The original test doesn't require actually timing or trying to do any reps at all...that was just something I did for fun. The test just requires that you do it once, down, then up, in a controlled fashion.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

Here's the original study that created the most recent surge of interest.

Also, one of my knees is sore today. DID THAT TO MYSELF LOL.

https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance-article/doi/10.1093/eurjpc/zwaf325/8163161?login=false

Sorry, I thought you were talking about repeated chair stands, because those are common in medical research on aging.  I didn't know about standing from cross-legged being a test.  I think a lot of adults probably can't do it at all. Seems like all it's measuring is whether someone goes to yoga or not. I can do it, but gave up trying to time myself because my floor is hard and the sides of my feet started to hurt before I got to a minute.  I might try later with shoes  on.

Yeah, it's actually pretty challenging for a lot of us! I'm reasonably fit for a middle-aged fat lady and I can only do this under just-right conditions. Otherwise I put my knee down. It never occured to me to do reps, it's just something I do sometimes to make sure I still can. Not part of my workout!

[Morning Glory]

Here's the original study that created the most recent surge of interest.

Also, one of my knees is sore today. DID THAT TO MYSELF LOL.

https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance-article/doi/10.1093/eurjpc/zwaf325/8163161?login=false

Sorry, I thought you were talking about repeated chair stands, because those are common in medical research on aging.  I didn't know about standing from cross-legged being a test.  I think a lot of adults probably can't do it at all. Seems like all it's measuring is whether someone goes to yoga or not. I can do it, but gave up trying to time myself because my floor is hard and the sides of my feet started to hurt before I got to a minute.  I might try later with shoes  on.

Yes, the test is supposed to be barefoot but I think it would be easier with shoes, for sure. I've seen some people trying to do it (or succeeding) online who are literally trying to stand while balancing on the outer sides of their feet/ankles, which is insanely risky. That is specifically NOT a position that is supposed to be used according to the original authors.

The original test doesn't require actually timing or trying to do any reps at all...that was just something I did for fun. The test just requires that you do it once, down, then up, in a controlled fashion.

Ok I did a full minute barefoot on carpet and only got 13. I didn't use hands or knees (was holding the phone in front of me with two hands to watch the timer)  and alternated which foot was in front which might have slowed me down a bit. I was probably on the sides of my feet for the bottom 1/3 of each one and felt some soreness from putting weight there even with the carpet.

I can probably get past 15 if I practice it a bit just to give you another data point to use against your troll. Seems like a pretty harmless challenge.

[wenchsenior]

Here's the original study that created the most recent surge of interest.

Also, one of my knees is sore today. DID THAT TO MYSELF LOL.

https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance-article/doi/10.1093/eurjpc/zwaf325/8163161?login=false

Sorry, I thought you were talking about repeated chair stands, because those are common in medical research on aging.  I didn't know about standing from cross-legged being a test.  I think a lot of adults probably can't do it at all. Seems like all it's measuring is whether someone goes to yoga or not. I can do it, but gave up trying to time myself because my floor is hard and the sides of my feet started to hurt before I got to a minute.  I might try later with shoes  on.

Yes, the test is supposed to be barefoot but I think it would be easier with shoes, for sure. I've seen some people trying to do it (or succeeding) online who are literally trying to stand while balancing on the outer sides of their feet/ankles, which is insanely risky. That is specifically NOT a position that is supposed to be used according to the original authors.

The original test doesn't require actually timing or trying to do any reps at all...that was just something I did for fun. The test just requires that you do it once, down, then up, in a controlled fashion.

Ok I did a full minute barefoot on carpet and only got 13. I didn't use hands or knees (was holding the phone in front of me with two hands to watch the timer)  and alternated which foot was in front which might have slowed me down a bit. I was probably on the sides of my feet for the bottom 1/3 of each one and felt some soreness from putting weight there even with the carpet.

I can probably get past 15 if I practice it a bit just to give you another data point to use against your troll. Seems like a pretty harmless challenge.

:highfive: