Woke Movies

[blue_green_sparks]

I consider myself a centrist-liberal these days, but I gotta say, I find these “woke remake movies” to be very boring.  From what I have read, I'll just catch the new Indy-Jones flick on a streaming service sometime later.

I really don't care about a movie's hero legacy or anything like that, but geez already....I hate being 'preached too' and I'd even venture to say that there are even a few good white men walking this planet! Crazy thought, I know.

Curious what do you all think?

[Kris]

I mean… I have no idea what “woke movies” you’re talking about, so I guess I have nothing to say.

[nereo]

I consider myself a centrist-liberal these days, but I gotta say, I find these “woke remake movies” to be very boring.  From what I have read, I'll just catch the new Indy-Jones flick on a streaming service sometime later.

I really don't care about a movie's hero legacy or anything like that, but geez already....I hate being 'preached too' and I'd even venture to say that there are even a few good white men walking this planet! Crazy thought, I know.

Huh? Indiana Jones? A bull-whip carrying archeologist who, :checks notes: battles Nazis over a magical box filled with angry spirits, grabs some glowing rocks from a cult leader who literally pulls peoples hearts out of their chest with his bare hands,  seeks a magic cup that prolongs life and an alien head that somehow opens an inter dimensional portal…?  This is who you are getting bent out of shape about??

FWIW two decades ago my college anthropology professor had a lecture where he outlined everything ‘Indy’ did wrong as an archeologist, including how he hopelessly destroyed ancient temples, killed people and violated countless local laws and international treaties. Every one of his major “discoveries” in the series was lost and the historical locations raised to rubble behind him. The prototypical “anti-archeologist” (or anti-hero).  But we cheer for him because the plots are so ridiculous everyone knows its fake, and we love seeing things blow up.

….or to repeat @Kris - I have no idea what you are talking about….

[EvenSteven]

Also wondering what movies are being referred to here. To be fair, I barely watch movies.

I looked up the plot of the new Indiana Jones movie and couldn't figure it out from that either, unless it's just the fact that there seems to be a female co-lead? It still stars a white guy so I'm a bit mystified. (The wikipedia article is 100% of my knowledge of this movie, so if there's something else I should know about it from the general cultural discussion, I am truly ignorant of it -- not baiting you.)

If the complaint is just about the number of new movies that are rehashes of old franchises, instead of new stories, then I'm on board.

In the 5th movie, it’s revealed that Indy was AFAB. He then transfers to Howard University to become a professor of woke studies. His adventure takes him to Easter Island, where he discovers that the giant heads were actually ancient lesbian wedding cakes. Then Miriam shows up and she’s black now.

[Sailor Sam]

I consider myself a centrist-liberal these days, but I gotta say, I find these “woke remake movies” to be very boring.  From what I have read, I'll just catch the new Indy-Jones flick on a streaming service sometime later.

I really don't care about a movie's hero legacy or anything like that, but geez already....I hate being 'preached too' and I'd even venture to say that there are even a few good white men walking this planet! Crazy thought, I know.

Curious what do you all think?

I think anyone who makes a whole thread to complain about a movie they haven’t even seen has a bone to pick. What are you actually mad about?

[LennStar]

Also wondering what movies are being referred to here. To be fair, I barely watch movies.

I looked up the plot of the new Indiana Jones movie and couldn't figure it out from that either, unless it's just the fact that there seems to be a female co-lead? It still stars a white guy so I'm a bit mystified. (The wikipedia article is 100% of my knowledge of this movie, so if there's something else I should know about it from the general cultural discussion, I am truly ignorant of it -- not baiting you.)

If the complaint is just about the number of new movies that are rehashes of old franchises, instead of new stories, then I'm on board.

In the 5th movie, it’s revealed that Indy was AFAB. He then transfers to Howard University to become a professor of woke studies. His adventure takes him to Easter Island, where he discovers that the giant heads were actually ancient lesbian wedding cakes. Then Miriam shows up and she’s black now.

I am not sure if this is sarcasm or a MAGA regurgitating what he found on whatever website.

But it's true that in many cases "woke" (whatever it exactly means), or more correctly appearing to be woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR). I certainly had this feeling with the last Star Wars movies (which means for me the last I saw on TV, so they are maybe 10 years old now). Or the Star Treck series that have cropped up.
Or maybe they were just done quite badly, because they have to follow new guidelines by Disney which don't work if you can't sing. Movies stopped being good for me when they started to paint everything blue and explode constantly. But THAT definitely has nothing to do with woke.
I continue to match nearly exclusivly anime, where there were "woke" characters (and all other types) before the word became mainstream and who are still characters.

[blue_green_sparks]

I consider myself a centrist-liberal these days, but I gotta say, I find these “woke remake movies” to be very boring.  From what I have read, I'll just catch the new Indy-Jones flick on a streaming service sometime later.

I really don't care about a movie's hero legacy or anything like that, but geez already....I hate being 'preached too' and I'd even venture to say that there are even a few good white men walking this planet! Crazy thought, I know.

Curious what do you all think?

I think anyone who makes a whole thread to complain about a movie they haven’t even seen has a bone to pick. What are you actually mad about?

Who said I'm mad, LOL? I made an observation that I won't bother spending 20 bucks to see subpar reissues of 80s/90s huge blockbusters where race and gender swaps are supposed to substitute for great character development and interesting stories. I tried to make it through a few of the Disney Star Wars movies. Nope. They did poorly at the box office.

Disney spent so much; they need to generate $1 billion for Indy-Jones 5 to be considered profitable. And yet looking at the reviews and trailer I have no interest in going to see it.

I'll make "a whole thread" about anything I think is interesting and your ad homonym implication is off base.

[Kris]

Eh, whatever. Movies get remade. They have gotten remade forever.

I don’t need all my main characters to be white or straight or cis. They are fiction. And there are others out there for whom seeing a character “like them” makes a real difference.

[Sanitary Stache]

If anything the older versions of Indiana Jones and Star Wars are shittier now that I am awake.  In a whole fucking galaxy of species and people in the first three star wars every actor is a white male, except for Lea who is just barely not always an object to look at.  The only other females are only objects. 

James Earl Jones wasn't even credited as Darth Vader's voice.  His voice is the whole character. 

What a fucking shameful display of misogyny and racism.

Being awake isn't a problem for enjoying a movie.  The disgusting display of how asleep George Lucas was is what makes it hard to enjoy a movie.

The new Indian Jones is probably the most exciting.  On the big screen all the CGI is better hidden than it likely is on a lower resolution small screen with generic video and audio settings

The new Star Wars are good as well, better than episodes 1-3 and the extra stories are awesome.  I am watching The Mandolorian now and it is a great story in the Star Wars universe.

Nostalgia is heavy in these franchises, so I recognize how my feelings about this entertainment are influenced by that.  But I am happy to see people of color and women gain some visibility along with Nazis and Aliens.

[Sailor Sam]

I consider myself a centrist-liberal these days, but I gotta say, I find these “woke remake movies” to be very boring.  From what I have read, I'll just catch the new Indy-Jones flick on a streaming service sometime later.

I really don't care about a movie's hero legacy or anything like that, but geez already....I hate being 'preached too' and I'd even venture to say that there are even a few good white men walking this planet! Crazy thought, I know.

Curious what do you all think?

I think anyone who makes a whole thread to complain about a movie they haven’t even seen has a bone to pick. What are you actually mad about?

Who said I'm mad, LOL? I made an observation that I won't bother spending 20 bucks to see subpar reissues of 80s/90s huge blockbusters where race and gender swaps are supposed to substitute for great character development and interesting stories. I tried to make it through a few of the Disney Star Wars movies. Nope. They did poorly at the box office.

Disney spent so much; they need to generate $1 billion for Indy-Jones 5 to be considered profitable. And yet looking at the reviews and trailer I have no interest in going to see it.

I'll make "a whole thread" about anything I think is interesting and your ad homonym implication is off base.

Well sure, you get to make any kind of thread that doesn’t violate the community rules. Since you said you haven’t seen the movie, and are only working on rumors of things you don’t like, I’m at a loss as to what kind of discussion you’d like. I suppose asking what you’re actually ‘mad’ about was my own lazy way of responding. Touché! We’re one for one assholes.

Maybe you’ll dispense with any continued assumptions with clarification? Do you want to talk about making snap decisions to reject media I haven’t bothered to experience? I’ve done that, sure.

Do you want to talk about the pro/con of that Disney has done with the new Indiana Jones?

Do you want to talk about where your own personal line is between progress and ridiculousness, in this brave new world?

[sonofsven]

Go back and watch our beloved 80's movies like 16 Candles, note the abject racism, and then tell me about new "woke" movies, whatever that means.

[ChpBstrd]

It's the inevitable tension in a culture that only makes remakes of old things because it cannot imagine its own future, and yet has come to recognize the problems with its old value set.

Producers can substitute women and/or minorities for the protagonist in a typical storyline, but I think audiences are a bit fatigued with the protagonist template no matter which actors we plug into the story. A lot of antihero character templates were created in response to this fatigue, and for a moment they seemed more realistic than the dashing Superman/John Wayne/Captain Kirk/Clint Eastwood/Luke Skywalker fist-fighting heroes of old. However even the antihero meme is getting worn out in the post-Trump era, as many people now think of rule-breaking in the context of attempts to tear down democracy and "the American Way".

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

[getsorted]

I think this is just confusing badly-written movies with woke movies. Rehashes of the blockbusters of yesteryear are rarely ever very good. They aren't made to be good. They're made to make buckets of money off of fans of the originals and people who want to zone out and get a few chuckles while taking in some explosions (to be clear, I am talking about myself, an abiding fan of dumb-ass action movies). Whether a diversity & equity inclusion officer had a hand on them makes very little difference. They're schlock to begin with. This type of movie has always had forced and preachy morals, even if they are uncontroversial ones like "believe in yourself" or "teamwork makes the dream work" or "your destiny isn't determined by your parents."

As an example: the newest Star Wars trilogy was meh at best, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the non-woke prequels.

But take a movie like "Nope." Is it woke? Fuck yeah, it's woke as hell. It's also probably going to be kicking around lists of the best 100 movies of all time for the next 100 years because it's excellent in every respect.

It's not being woke that makes a movie bad. It's just that not all movies are good.

[getsorted]

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

I actually think the Marvel movies are great at this. But it's kind of in the nature of comic book movies. Team-ups are a major thing.

[sixwings]

It's the inevitable tension in a culture that only makes remakes of old things because it cannot imagine its own future, and yet has come to recognize the problems with its old value set.

Producers can substitute women and/or minorities for the protagonist in a typical storyline, but I think audiences are a bit fatigued with the protagonist template no matter which actors we plug into the story. A lot of antihero character templates were created in response to this fatigue, and for a moment they seemed more realistic than the dashing Superman/John Wayne/Captain Kirk/Clint Eastwood/Luke Skywalker fist-fighting heroes of old. However even the antihero meme is getting worn out in the post-Trump era, as many people now think of rule-breaking in the context of attempts to tear down democracy and "the American Way".

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

I agree with all this, for example it doesn't matter what gender or race a marvel movie actor is, the formula is old and done and they need to figure out something new. Doesn't help that they have released so much content that all ties in together that it's just tiring and fatigueing. I have to watch 3 shows as homework before I can see the movie.

However I strongly disagree that we haven't accomplished anything significant of value in decades. The access to information we have now could only have been dreamed of decades ago. Our ability to find an answer to any question, anywhere we are, in seconds, is actually a pretty enormous change. I also think we are at another "plow invention" moment in history with AI.

Regardless, the anti-woke crusade is just dumb, accomplishes nothing, doesn't make any logical sense, and is created to be nothing more than a distraction from the fact that we are getting taken advantage of by a very small number of very rich people who want us to fight among ourselves about "woke". I can't imagine having bills, paying rent, buying food, surviving whatever latest climate catastrophe is imacting us and living while thinking the race of the little mermaid or the gender of a new superhero movie protagonist is a problem facing society right now.

[GuitarStv]

Eh, whatever. Movies get remade. They have gotten remade forever.

I don’t need all my main characters to be white or straight or cis. They are fiction. And there are others out there for whom seeing a character “like them” makes a real difference.

Agreed.  I'm perfectly happy to watch a remake or sequel of a classic movie with a bunch of changes . . . provided it's good and the changes make a fun flick.

'Wokeness' whatever that means doesn't make a movie bad.  Terrible writing and plot does.  The fourth Indiana Jones movie wasn't terrible because of wokeness - it just sucked.  Sounds like the fifth is following in the same footsteps.  :P

[LennStar]

If anything the older versions of Indiana Jones and Star Wars are shittier now that I am awake.  In a whole fucking galaxy of species and people in the first three star wars every actor is a white male, except for Lea who is just barely not always an object to look at.  The only other females are only objects. 

Haha, true, they are trash. But that is the appeal, it's named "Space Opera" for a reason, and the skin color doesn't play a role in that.
And that is the point, if you do the film not for the trash but for the skin color, than it's something different. The original Star Treck is also trash, even though it had a "revolutionarly" diverse cast so to speak.

I did hear a lot of good things about the Mandalorian. If it ever appears on TV I will give it a chance.

Rehashes of the blockbusters of yesteryear are rarely ever very good.

Yes. Ghostbusters was, which surprised me. But it was nearly a copy, even with the totally "woke" casting of 4 ladies in the lead and a total uhm... gay? doesn't catch the comically overdrawn character of the secretary.
And that's the difference. I love a good used steroptype, but what many people call "woke" is often just a stereotype translated to a different gender, were it doesn't work, not even comedic like the Ghostbuster secretary.

Example where it didn't work was in the Star Wars movie where the girl (I am really bad with names, sorry) is the lead. She was just bad (especially at fighting), in a badly written role. She wasn't a "strong female lead" (which I guess was the goal), she just came over as a bit dense and without emotions.
Compare that to e.g. Xena. That was a real trash series, and certainly used "sex sells" and you can critize that. But Xena (once the series found it's way) was a real character with a really good actor. Who also happened to be a strong female lead. And remember, originally she was Hercules side kick. Can't see anyone wanting the Star Treck girl getting a series for her if she would be a sidekick.

I can't imagine having bills, paying rent, buying food, surviving whatever latest climate catastrophe is imacting us and living while thinking the race of the little mermaid or the gender of a new superhero movie protagonist is a problem facing society right now.

Well said.
 

[nereo]

Who said I'm mad, LOL? I made an observation that I won't bother spending 20 bucks to see subpar reissues of 80s/90s huge blockbusters where race and gender swaps are supposed to substitute for great character development and interesting stories. I tried to make it through a few of the Disney Star Wars movies. Nope. They did poorly at the box office.

Disney spent so much; they need to generate $1 billion for Indy-Jones 5 to be considered profitable. And yet looking at the reviews and trailer I have no interest in going to see it.

I'll make "a whole thread" about anything I think is interesting and your ad homonym implication is off base.

you literally started a whole thread about how you weren't going to see the newest installment of one of the silliest movie-franchises because of things you heard about it being "woke", and now you are citing "great character development" and "interesting stories".  No one paying attention expects Indiana Jones to be anything short of explosions, booby-traps, near death experiences with an underlying arc of supernatural thrown in.

not sure what "race or gender swaps" you are even getting at with Star Wars, except maybe that they put a black guy in?  Remember in the "original three" one of the most important characters, competent characters were Leah, a wookie, a walking trash can and another black guy. That franchise has always been "woke" if that's the verbiage you are going with...

[ChpBstrd]

However I strongly disagree that we haven't accomplished anything significant of value in decades. The access to information we have now could only have been dreamed of decades ago. Our ability to find an answer to any question, anywhere we are, in seconds, is actually a pretty enormous change. I also think we are at another "plow invention" moment in history with AI.

IT is a consumer product. AI is going to be a consumer product too. The economy would have to completely collapse if corporations did not keep competing to produce better and cheaper consumer products.

So people have cooperated to build these IT products in the context of work, where they get paid to cooperate, but my point is that we seem to prefer not to cooperate with others unless we are being paid to do work. Civic groups and clubs are out. Families are out. Friendships with neighbors are out. Marriages are out. Activism is out. Workplaces are now the only places where people cooperate or where people meet anyone outside their information bubbles and lots of people despise the experience.

Perhaps the only example of a nonprofit grassroots movement that involved people cooperating and which accomplished something big in the last 20 years is Pride. I'd like to hear more stories or see more movies about how that happened. Even my other examples, the ACA and the Webb, were built by people with high salaries. Somebody please make me a movie about the possibilities for cooperation with non-monetary incentives?

[MoseyingAlong]

Go back and watch our beloved 80's movies like 16 Candles, note the abject racism, and then tell me about new "woke" movies, whatever that means.

And not just the racism.
I loved 16 Candles in high school. I watched part of it recently and was horrified. Personally I consider it a good thing that I and some of wider society have become more thoughtful.

If it's just about the amount of sequels and remakes, yeah, some really are a waste of time. On the other hand, Top Gun: Maverick was the best movie I've seen in quite a while. Partly because they explicitly acknowledge that time has moved on and the main character is in a different phase of life.

[waltworks]

If you're taking your moral cues, woke or not, from Indiana Jones, you may be doing it wrong.

Likewise if you spend a lot of time worrying about the political meanings of mainstream entertainment.

-W

[FireLane]

But it's true that in many cases "woke" (whatever it exactly means), or more correctly appearing to be woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR). I certainly had this feeling with the last Star Wars movies (which means for me the last I saw on TV, so they are maybe 10 years old now). Or the Star Treck series that have cropped up.

You think the new Star Trek series are "woke"?

The original Star Trek had main characters who were a black woman, an Asian man, and a Russian character at a time when the real world was still deep in the Cold War. It had one of the first interracial kiss scenes ever shown on television. Gene Roddenberry also wanted to make the first officer a woman, but the network wouldn't allow him to. It had episodes commenting on racism, eugenics and the Vietnam War.

For its time, it was extremely "woke", inasmuch as that term has any meaning. It's only because the social issues it was commenting on have largely been settled that its casting and storytelling choices now seem familiar and unthreatening.

[Kris]

As far as I can tell, “woke” just means, “not white straight cis people in roles I expected to be played by white straight cis people.”

[YK-Phil]

I got to admit, I am a bit of a cultural peasant, but I'd love it if OP could share a short list of recent woke movies.

[GilesMM]

I liked "The Wizard of Oz", but I loved "The Wiz".

[LennStar]

But it's true that in many cases "woke" (whatever it exactly means), or more correctly appearing to be woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR). I certainly had this feeling with the last Star Wars movies (which means for me the last I saw on TV, so they are maybe 10 years old now). Or the Star Treck series that have cropped up.

You think the new Star Trek series are "woke"?

I can't say since I didn't watch, but I assume it. I kow that the right wingers complained heavily about it being too woke, there was a bit PR with it by the producers, and everyone else said that the writing was bad.
That was what I refering to: "woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR)"

btw. I haven't seen any movie that is "woke" for ugly people, even though your looks are a very heavy factor for discrimination.

[GuitarStv]

But it's true that in many cases "woke" (whatever it exactly means), or more correctly appearing to be woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR). I certainly had this feeling with the last Star Wars movies (which means for me the last I saw on TV, so they are maybe 10 years old now). Or the Star Treck series that have cropped up.

You think the new Star Trek series are "woke"?

I can't say since I didn't watch, but I assume it. I kow that the right wingers complained heavily about it being too woke, there was a bit PR with it by the producers, and everyone else said that the writing was bad.
That was what I refering to: "woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR)"

btw. I haven't seen any movie that is "woke" for ugly people, even though your looks are a very heavy factor for discrimination.

Steven Buschemi has been in a lot of movies.  :P

[Sibley]

I watched Netflix's The Queen, the Bridgerton show. Costumes are excellent. Shooting locations are excellent. (The filmed at HAMPTON COURT PALACE!!!!!) Is it historically accurate? HAHA. Nope. Were there black people among the British aristocracy? Nope. Is it "woke"? Yes. I expected a light hearted show which would mildly entertain me for a few hours, not something which was deeply thought provoking. I got exactly what I was expecting. Would it be nice if the writing was better? Yes. Am I going to carry a pitchfork over it? Nope.

As for Star Wars - it would be nice if Disney/Lucasfilm could get some better story tellers to write the scripts, and then have the directors take the good scripts and make good movies with them. The prequels suffered greatly because George Lucus wrote and directed them - he's got some pretty clear handicaps. The sequels suffered greatly because George Lucas (or anyone else) didn't figure out the entire story arc. Having different directors also didn't help.

Marvel I've never gotten into. From the outside looking in, all those here complaining are no longer the target generation. Deal with it. I'm also not the target generation for all the Star Wars shows coming out. It's fine, I'll watch what I want and let others enjoy it. I'm also not a huge fan of the Amazon Lord of the Rings show, and I am a HUGE Tolkien fan. I'll live, I've still got the books.

Don't yuck someone else's yum.

[Kris]

I watched Netflix's The Queen, the Bridgerton show. Costumes are excellent. Shooting locations are excellent. (The filmed at HAMPTON COURT PALACE!!!!!) Is it historically accurate? HAHA. Nope. Were there black people among the British aristocracy? Nope. Is it "woke"? Yes. I expected a light hearted show which would mildly entertain me for a few hours, not something which was deeply thought provoking. I got exactly what I was expecting. Would it be nice if the writing was better? Yes. Am I going to carry a pitchfork over it? Nope.

As for Star Wars - it would be nice if Disney/Lucasfilm could get some better story tellers to write the scripts, and then have the directors take the good scripts and make good movies with them. The prequels suffered greatly because George Lucus wrote and directed them - he's got some pretty clear handicaps. The sequels suffered greatly because George Lucas (or anyone else) didn't figure out the entire story arc. Having different directors also didn't help.

Marvel I've never gotten into. From the outside looking in, all those here complaining are no longer the target generation. Deal with it. I'm also not the target generation for all the Star Wars shows coming out. It's fine, I'll watch what I want and let others enjoy it. I'm also not a huge fan of the Amazon Lord of the Rings show, and I am a HUGE Tolkien fan. I'll live, I've still got the books.

Don't yuck someone else's yum.

Indeed. There are lots of movies for which not everyone is the target audience. I am not the target audience for any of the Transformers movies. But I am not upset that someone made those movies even though I won’t like them. It seems weird to me how the indignant upset happens when “formerly straight, cis, white” characters (again, fictional) are reimagined into characters who are not one or more of those things, or when films or shows are made that do not center straight white cis story lines.

[ChpBstrd]

As for Star Wars - it would be nice if Disney/Lucasfilm could get some better story tellers to write the scripts, and then have the directors take the good scripts and make good movies with them. The prequels suffered greatly because George Lucus wrote and directed them - he's got some pretty clear handicaps. The sequels suffered greatly because George Lucas (or anyone else) didn't figure out the entire story arc. Having different directors also didn't help.

Marvel I've never gotten into. From the outside looking in, all those here complaining are no longer the target generation.

Writing for Star Wars or Marvel must be difficult because one must find some pretext to make a fight or battle scene every 5 minutes, plus or minus. Any plot or character development must occur inside those five minute intervals, and then tie in with the upcoming fight. Then you have to budget some of that time for special effects or awe-inducing scenes in which no characters are doing anything important or saying anything.

Such movies are quite exciting when one's age is about 12 to 30, but eventually one catches on to the pattern and the rollercoaster becomes a road full of potholes. Oh look, yet another contrived pew-pew Star Wars fight. How exciting. I suspect our younger selves would like the remakes just as much as the originals, but our older selves cannot go back to the way we used to think.

[LennStar]

Don't yuck someone else's yum.

I won't even try to translate that...

Steven Buschemi has been in a lot of movies.  :P

Since I of course don't knwo the name I looked it up. tldr: "losers and mentally ill characters".
Yeah, that's discrimination right there. Good people look good, bad people look bad.

[GuitarStv]

I am not the target audience for any of the Transformers movies.

I'm trying to picture the target audience.  Over caffeinated ADHD kid fed a diet of pure sugar and off their Ritalin with strong 80s nostalgia and a touch of pyromania?  Is that a big demo?

[Turtle]

It's the inevitable tension in a culture that only makes remakes of old things because it cannot imagine its own future, and yet has come to recognize the problems with its old value set.

Producers can substitute women and/or minorities for the protagonist in a typical storyline, but I think audiences are a bit fatigued with the protagonist template no matter which actors we plug into the story. A lot of antihero character templates were created in response to this fatigue, and for a moment they seemed more realistic than the dashing Superman/John Wayne/Captain Kirk/Clint Eastwood/Luke Skywalker fist-fighting heroes of old. However even the antihero meme is getting worn out in the post-Trump era, as many people now think of rule-breaking in the context of attempts to tear down democracy and "the American Way".

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

I agree with all this, for example it doesn't matter what gender or race a marvel movie actor is, the formula is old and done and they need to figure out something new. Doesn't help that they have released so much content that all ties in together that it's just tiring and fatigueing. I have to watch 3 shows as homework before I can see the movie.

However I strongly disagree that we haven't accomplished anything significant of value in decades. The access to information we have now could only have been dreamed of decades ago. Our ability to find an answer to any question, anywhere we are, in seconds, is actually a pretty enormous change. I also think we are at another "plow invention" moment in history with AI.

Regardless, the anti-woke crusade is just dumb, accomplishes nothing, doesn't make any logical sense, and is created to be nothing more than a distraction from the fact that we are getting taken advantage of by a very small number of very rich people who want us to fight among ourselves about "woke". I can't imagine having bills, paying rent, buying food, surviving whatever latest climate catastrophe is imacting us and living while thinking the race of the little mermaid or the gender of a new superhero movie protagonist is a problem facing society right now.

That last paragraph, exactly.  The amount of time, energy, and resources being wasted on these distractions is insane. 

[Sibley]

Don't yuck someone else's yum.

I won't even try to translate that...

I will make it easy, even though I thought it already was pretty easy.

Pretend your friend loves bananas, and pretend you hate bananas. It's not nice to say "YUCK" whenever your friend eats a banana, because to them, it tastes good. In this pretend world, when your friend eats a banana, you don't comment, but you also don't need to eat a banana with your friend.

[Metalcat]

I cannot for the life of me figure out what having diverse characters has to do with remakes being bad??

A lot of remakes are bad, hell, a lot of movies are bad, whether the characters are diverse or not. It's not the inclusion of diverse characters that makes films bad, and I can't even wrap my mind around the logical reasoning that would even connect the two.

Diverse casting just doesn't have the power to make an otherwise good movie bad...not unless the person watching is bigoted enough that just seeing diverse casting ruins an otherwise good movie for them.

Diverse casting also doesn't have the power to compensate for an otherwise bad movie, so with a huge amount of bad movies out there, I would just expect a hell of a lot of bad movies with more diverse casting as it becomes more common.

Also, the most legitimately woke movies I've seen aren't remakes, they're movies about diversity issues or are about diverse populations, and A LOT of them win awards: Hidden Figures, Moonlight, Parasite, CODA, The Big Sick, Get Out, Do The Right Thing, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, West Side Story, In The Heat of the Night, 12 Years A Slave, The Theory of Everything, Ray, Girl Interrupted, Train Spotting, Peanut Butter Falcon, I Am Sam, Still Alice, The Fundamentals of Caring, Lawrence of Arabia, The Kite Runner, Malcolm X, Salmon Fishing in Yemen, Silver Linings Playbook, A Beautiful Mind, Rain Man, The Aviator, What's Eating Gilbert Grape, The Hours...

Just to name a few...

[getsorted]

I am not the target audience for any of the Transformers movies.

I'm trying to picture the target audience.  Over caffeinated ADHD kid fed a diet of pure sugar and off their Ritalin with strong 80s nostalgia and a touch of pyromania?  Is that a big demo?

Stv, can you please not talk about me and all my friends that way? ;)

[farmecologist]

It's the inevitable tension in a culture that only makes remakes of old things because it cannot imagine its own future, and yet has come to recognize the problems with its old value set.

Producers can substitute women and/or minorities for the protagonist in a typical storyline, but I think audiences are a bit fatigued with the protagonist template no matter which actors we plug into the story. A lot of antihero character templates were created in response to this fatigue, and for a moment they seemed more realistic than the dashing Superman/John Wayne/Captain Kirk/Clint Eastwood/Luke Skywalker fist-fighting heroes of old. However even the antihero meme is getting worn out in the post-Trump era, as many people now think of rule-breaking in the context of attempts to tear down democracy and "the American Way".

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

I agree with all this, for example it doesn't matter what gender or race a marvel movie actor is, the formula is old and done and they need to figure out something new. Doesn't help that they have released so much content that all ties in together that it's just tiring and fatigueing. I have to watch 3 shows as homework before I can see the movie.

However I strongly disagree that we haven't accomplished anything significant of value in decades. The access to information we have now could only have been dreamed of decades ago. Our ability to find an answer to any question, anywhere we are, in seconds, is actually a pretty enormous change. I also think we are at another "plow invention" moment in history with AI.

Regardless, the anti-woke crusade is just dumb, accomplishes nothing, doesn't make any logical sense, and is created to be nothing more than a distraction from the fact that we are getting taken advantage of by a very small number of very rich people who want us to fight among ourselves about "woke". I can't imagine having bills, paying rent, buying food, surviving whatever latest climate catastrophe is imacting us and living while thinking the race of the little mermaid or the gender of a new superhero movie protagonist is a problem facing society right now.

That last paragraph, exactly.  The amount of time, energy, and resources being wasted on these distractions is insane.

Yep...Absolutely nobody should care what the skin color of actors in a movie are....and many of them are animated.   Just insane, mostly internet, "culture war" ridiculousness.

I'm so damned sick and tired of the "woke" term ( as defined by the MAGA crowd ).  I instantly lose respect of anyone that uses the term in that way.  It isn't a good look...at all.   Any smart person should know why the GOP/MAGA crowd use the term....they want to sow "culture war" nonsense to their followers because they have nothing left to go on.

Seriously...let's be the smart people in the room..

[Metalcat]

It's the inevitable tension in a culture that only makes remakes of old things because it cannot imagine its own future, and yet has come to recognize the problems with its old value set.

Producers can substitute women and/or minorities for the protagonist in a typical storyline, but I think audiences are a bit fatigued with the protagonist template no matter which actors we plug into the story. A lot of antihero character templates were created in response to this fatigue, and for a moment they seemed more realistic than the dashing Superman/John Wayne/Captain Kirk/Clint Eastwood/Luke Skywalker fist-fighting heroes of old. However even the antihero meme is getting worn out in the post-Trump era, as many people now think of rule-breaking in the context of attempts to tear down democracy and "the American Way".

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

I agree with all this, for example it doesn't matter what gender or race a marvel movie actor is, the formula is old and done and they need to figure out something new. Doesn't help that they have released so much content that all ties in together that it's just tiring and fatigueing. I have to watch 3 shows as homework before I can see the movie.

However I strongly disagree that we haven't accomplished anything significant of value in decades. The access to information we have now could only have been dreamed of decades ago. Our ability to find an answer to any question, anywhere we are, in seconds, is actually a pretty enormous change. I also think we are at another "plow invention" moment in history with AI.

Regardless, the anti-woke crusade is just dumb, accomplishes nothing, doesn't make any logical sense, and is created to be nothing more than a distraction from the fact that we are getting taken advantage of by a very small number of very rich people who want us to fight among ourselves about "woke". I can't imagine having bills, paying rent, buying food, surviving whatever latest climate catastrophe is imacting us and living while thinking the race of the little mermaid or the gender of a new superhero movie protagonist is a problem facing society right now.

That last paragraph, exactly.  The amount of time, energy, and resources being wasted on these distractions is insane.

Yep...Absolutely nobody should care what the skin color of actors in a movie are....and many of them are animated.   Just insane, mostly internet, "culture war" ridiculousness.

I'm so damned sick and tired of the "woke" term ( as defined by the MAGA crowd ).  I instantly lose respect of anyone that uses the term in that way.  It isn't a good look...at all.   Any smart person should know why the GOP/MAGA crowd use the term....they want to sow "culture war" nonsense to their followers because they have nothing left to go on.

Seriously...let's be the smart people in the room..

I personally just insist on still using terms like "woke" and "SJW" in their original positive connotations. These terms come from the progressive community, just because hateful people use them as insults doesn't mean that they are.

[sixwings]

It's the inevitable tension in a culture that only makes remakes of old things because it cannot imagine its own future, and yet has come to recognize the problems with its old value set.

Producers can substitute women and/or minorities for the protagonist in a typical storyline, but I think audiences are a bit fatigued with the protagonist template no matter which actors we plug into the story. A lot of antihero character templates were created in response to this fatigue, and for a moment they seemed more realistic than the dashing Superman/John Wayne/Captain Kirk/Clint Eastwood/Luke Skywalker fist-fighting heroes of old. However even the antihero meme is getting worn out in the post-Trump era, as many people now think of rule-breaking in the context of attempts to tear down democracy and "the American Way".

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

I agree with all this, for example it doesn't matter what gender or race a marvel movie actor is, the formula is old and done and they need to figure out something new. Doesn't help that they have released so much content that all ties in together that it's just tiring and fatigueing. I have to watch 3 shows as homework before I can see the movie.

However I strongly disagree that we haven't accomplished anything significant of value in decades. The access to information we have now could only have been dreamed of decades ago. Our ability to find an answer to any question, anywhere we are, in seconds, is actually a pretty enormous change. I also think we are at another "plow invention" moment in history with AI.

Regardless, the anti-woke crusade is just dumb, accomplishes nothing, doesn't make any logical sense, and is created to be nothing more than a distraction from the fact that we are getting taken advantage of by a very small number of very rich people who want us to fight among ourselves about "woke". I can't imagine having bills, paying rent, buying food, surviving whatever latest climate catastrophe is imacting us and living while thinking the race of the little mermaid or the gender of a new superhero movie protagonist is a problem facing society right now.

That last paragraph, exactly.  The amount of time, energy, and resources being wasted on these distractions is insane.

Yep...Absolutely nobody should care what the skin color of actors in a movie are....and many of them are animated.   Just insane, mostly internet, "culture war" ridiculousness.

I'm so damned sick and tired of the "woke" term ( as defined by the MAGA crowd ).  I instantly lose respect of anyone that uses the term in that way.  It isn't a good look...at all.   Any smart person should know why the GOP/MAGA crowd use the term....they want to sow "culture war" nonsense to their followers because they have nothing left to go on.

Seriously...let's be the smart people in the room..

Oh they have lots to go on, tax cuts for rich, deregulation so the rich can poison our air and water to save money, removal of bodily autonomy, election rigging laws for the rich etc. It's just no one actually wants that so they sell them on this culture war crap and quietly give the rich everything while giving the people nothing but grievances about woke movies and hollywood.

[SotI]

Also, the most legitimately woke movies I've seen aren't remakes, they're movies about diversity issues or are about diverse populations, and A LOT of them win awards:
<snip> Train Spotting, ... Lawrence of Arabia, ..., A Beautiful Mind, ... What's Eating Gilbert Grape, ...

At the risk of being a bit dense, I still don't get at all what a "woke" movie is (and I know it's not Metalcat thas had brought it up initially). Still, as these examples are some of my favourite movies I know well, I even wonder what qualifies as "legitimately woke" in these specific cases? I see these examples as 2 are dramatized historical "reflections" and 2 are socio-economic commentaries.

So, what does count as "legitimately woke" these days? *just wondering*
I mean: What about The Godfather, Schindler's List, Apocalypse Now, Dances with Wolves, Priscilla, Aliens etc? All with social/racial/diverse "messages". But great movies, because of good stories, acting and cinematography ...

"Woke" seems a pretty meaningless and opaque term to describe movies, it seems to me.

[farmecologist]

It's the inevitable tension in a culture that only makes remakes of old things because it cannot imagine its own future, and yet has come to recognize the problems with its old value set.

Producers can substitute women and/or minorities for the protagonist in a typical storyline, but I think audiences are a bit fatigued with the protagonist template no matter which actors we plug into the story. A lot of antihero character templates were created in response to this fatigue, and for a moment they seemed more realistic than the dashing Superman/John Wayne/Captain Kirk/Clint Eastwood/Luke Skywalker fist-fighting heroes of old. However even the antihero meme is getting worn out in the post-Trump era, as many people now think of rule-breaking in the context of attempts to tear down democracy and "the American Way".

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

I agree with all this, for example it doesn't matter what gender or race a marvel movie actor is, the formula is old and done and they need to figure out something new. Doesn't help that they have released so much content that all ties in together that it's just tiring and fatigueing. I have to watch 3 shows as homework before I can see the movie.

However I strongly disagree that we haven't accomplished anything significant of value in decades. The access to information we have now could only have been dreamed of decades ago. Our ability to find an answer to any question, anywhere we are, in seconds, is actually a pretty enormous change. I also think we are at another "plow invention" moment in history with AI.

Regardless, the anti-woke crusade is just dumb, accomplishes nothing, doesn't make any logical sense, and is created to be nothing more than a distraction from the fact that we are getting taken advantage of by a very small number of very rich people who want us to fight among ourselves about "woke". I can't imagine having bills, paying rent, buying food, surviving whatever latest climate catastrophe is imacting us and living while thinking the race of the little mermaid or the gender of a new superhero movie protagonist is a problem facing society right now.

That last paragraph, exactly.  The amount of time, energy, and resources being wasted on these distractions is insane.

Yep...Absolutely nobody should care what the skin color of actors in a movie are....and many of them are animated.   Just insane, mostly internet, "culture war" ridiculousness.

I'm so damned sick and tired of the "woke" term ( as defined by the MAGA crowd ).  I instantly lose respect of anyone that uses the term in that way.  It isn't a good look...at all.   Any smart person should know why the GOP/MAGA crowd use the term....they want to sow "culture war" nonsense to their followers because they have nothing left to go on.

Seriously...let's be the smart people in the room..

Oh they have lots to go on, tax cuts for rich, deregulation so the rich can poison our air and water to save money, removal of bodily autonomy, election rigging laws for the rich etc. It's just no one actually wants that so they sell them on this culture war crap and quietly give the rich everything while giving the people nothing but grievances about woke movies and hollywood.

Yes...you just proved my point...lol.   I think we are in violent agreement.

[Psychstache]

At this point I'm more attuned to stories where cooperation is the great victory, because interpersonal cooperation is the challenge of our time. It's why our relationships suck. It's why our jobs suck. It's why our politics suck. It's why we have Facebook "friends" instead of friendships on the levels our grandparents enjoyed. Our inability to organize is why most people are politically powerless. Our inability to work together is why our stagnant civilization hasn't accomplished anything significant in decades, aside from the watered-down ACA and the Webb space telescope. We can do all sorts of tricks with our cell phones, but can't seem to make or maintain genuine friendships. We don't need a hero at this point; we need each other.

I actually think the Marvel movies are great at this. But it's kind of in the nature of comic book movies. Team-ups are a major thing.

I read this and immediately thought of Encanto. Great movie.

[Metalcat]

Also, the most legitimately woke movies I've seen aren't remakes, they're movies about diversity issues or are about diverse populations, and A LOT of them win awards:
<snip> Train Spotting, ... Lawrence of Arabia, ..., A Beautiful Mind, ... What's Eating Gilbert Grape, ...

At the risk of being a bit dense, I still don't get at all what a "woke" movie is (and I know it's not Metalcat thas had brought it up initially). Still, as these examples are some of my favourite movies I know well, I even wonder what qualifies as "legitimately woke" in these specific cases? I see these examples as 2 are dramatized historical "reflections" and 2 are socio-economic commentaries.

So, what does count as "legitimately woke" these days? *just wondering*
I mean: What about The Godfather, Schindler's List, Apocalypse Now, Dances with Wolves, Priscilla, Aliens etc? All with social/racial/diverse "messages". But great movies, because of good stories, acting and cinematography ...

"Woke" seems a pretty meaningless and opaque term to describe movies, it seems to me.

Anything that gives responsible representation to a marginalized group or addresses an issue of repression can reasonably be considered "woke" just not according to the right wing insulting version of the word.

It's not opaque or meaningless, it's just not anything to get bent out of shape about.

ETA: "woke" literally pretty much just means being actively conscious of marginalization and oppression, tons of movies actively seek and achieve that goal

[wenchsenior]

As a slight side note, one thing that I have really enjoyed in recent years is a tendency toward movies and tv that do colorblind or alternative types of casting for the types of stories that in 'traditional' presentation are almost 100% white or European. Now, the actual quality of these have nothing in particular to do with the more diverse casting. Some are good, some are not, some are fine. But what I like about it is that it gives a lot more opportunities to a lot more actors than in Ye Olden Days, and also for me (as a middle class white viewer), it piques my engagement with material that I've sometimes seen enough times/variants of that it was boring before.

Obviously, this has been happening on stage with e.g., classic Shakespeare etc for decades... with changes to location, time period, and casting that allow the plays to explore different sub themes within the material or have new kinds of socio-political resonance.

I really dig it.

[Villanelle]

OP, what *exactly* do you think is objectionably "woke" about the Indy movie?  I know you said you haven't seen it and you are choosing that based on things you've read or heard about it.  What things? 

You mention "race and gender swaps".  As far as I could tell, Indy was still a white guy.

[pasadenafr]

OP, what *exactly* do you think is objectionably "woke" about the Indy movie?  I know you said you haven't seen it and you are choosing that based on things you've read or heard about it.  What things? 

You mention "race and gender swaps".  As far as I could tell, Indy was still a white guy.

But he's old now! He wasn't in the first movies!

Seriously, I was wondering the same thing. The vagueness and buzzwords read as very intentional.

[RetiredAt63]

I wonder if OP thinks a film that passes the Bechdel test is also woke?

[Villanelle]

I wonder if OP thinks a film that passes the Bechdel test is also woke?

Offhand, I'm not sure Indy passes that test.  There is a female character and she does get a fair amount of screen time, but I can only think of one.  (Well, at the end there's a second one that makes an appearance, for perhaps the last 5 minutes.)

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

But it's true that in many cases "woke" (whatever it exactly means), or more correctly appearing to be woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR). I certainly had this feeling with the last Star Wars movies (which means for me the last I saw on TV, so they are maybe 10 years old now). Or the Star Treck series that have cropped up.

You think the new Star Trek series are "woke"?

I can't say since I didn't watch, but I assume it. I kow that the right wingers complained heavily about it being too woke, there was a bit PR with it by the producers, and everyone else said that the writing was bad.
That was what I refering to: "woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR)"

btw. I haven't seen any movie that is "woke" for ugly people, even though your looks are a very heavy factor for discrimination.

First let me say they I cringe when I hear so of the complaints about wokeness and all that. As a whole it's often ridiculous like the Indiana Jones complaints.

I think it goes back to what was said - it's about the story telling, and I think the new Star Trek series are good examples.

Comparing Discovery with strange new worlds. Discovery started off pretty solid. It also had good representation of characters, a good overall plot that for pretty well within Star Trek as  whole, etc. Multiple seasons later, I can't even make myself watch it as background while I'm half way concentrating on something else. The plot, to me, is repetitive and uninteresting. Part of that feels like they're not putting any effort in on good plot and using... Well... Not even really progressive stuff in there, although there is that. Just kind of feel good fluff. There was an episode where there was an overly forced example of someone getting up the nerve to ask for therapy. Not a bad thing.... It was just done poorly and felt forced, and that seems the case for a lot of stuff on that show....a decent portion of which is progressive themed. So, in a way, I can see it.

Strange new worlds, as a contrast, doesn't shy away from these issues. It had a recent episode where a genetically modified character was essentially on trial for their humanity and rights. It was handled well. The show is well received. It has a reasonably diverse cast granting that the captain is a white dude.

I guess all that to be said, again, the story makes all the difference. Since there's always bad stories, it's likely that people will feel stories with representation are bad when the stories are bad and blame the representation for the bad story. It does seem that throwing in progressive issues are occasionally used to distract from a bad plot, but that could be totally off base.

[sixwings]

But it's true that in many cases "woke" (whatever it exactly means), or more correctly appearing to be woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR). I certainly had this feeling with the last Star Wars movies (which means for me the last I saw on TV, so they are maybe 10 years old now). Or the Star Treck series that have cropped up.

You think the new Star Trek series are "woke"?

I can't say since I didn't watch, but I assume it. I kow that the right wingers complained heavily about it being too woke, there was a bit PR with it by the producers, and everyone else said that the writing was bad.
That was what I refering to: "woke, seems to be more important than proper screenwriting (at least in the PR)"

btw. I haven't seen any movie that is "woke" for ugly people, even though your looks are a very heavy factor for discrimination.

First let me say they I cringe when I hear so of the complaints about wokeness and all that. As a whole it's often ridiculous like the Indiana Jones complaints.

I think it goes back to what was said - it's about the story telling, and I think the new Star Trek series are good examples.

Comparing Discovery with strange new worlds. Discovery started off pretty solid. It also had good representation of characters, a good overall plot that for pretty well within Star Trek as  whole, etc. Multiple seasons later, I can't even make myself watch it as background while I'm half way concentrating on something else. The plot, to me, is repetitive and uninteresting. Part of that feels like they're not putting any effort in on good plot and using... Well... Not even really progressive stuff in there, although there is that. Just kind of feel good fluff. There was an episode where there was an overly forced example of someone getting up the nerve to ask for therapy. Not a bad thing.... It was just done poorly and felt forced, and that seems the case for a lot of stuff on that show....a decent portion of which is progressive themed. So, in a way, I can see it.

Strange new worlds, as a contrast, doesn't shy away from these issues. It had a recent episode where a genetically modified character was essentially on trial for their humanity and rights. It was handled well. The show is well received. It has a reasonably diverse cast granting that the captain is a white dude.

I guess all that to be said, again, the story makes all the difference. Since there's always bad stories, it's likely that people will feel stories with representation are bad when the stories are bad and blame the representation for the bad story. It does seem that throwing in progressive issues are occasionally used to distract from a bad plot, but that could be totally off base.

I haven't seen SNW yet, but that plot is pretty well used in Star Trek. Data had to do that in Measure of a Man, The Doctor had to do that in voyager (it was in season 7, can't remember the name of it), Bashir had to do that in Presume, etc. I believe Measure of a Man was the first one and was very well received so they've been kind of doing the same plot every season. Regardless, still makes great episodes.